1st) I like this idea Crush however would STRONGLY encourage you to put that down to 1 second since 2 is a LONG time to be seen. This makes stealth worthless, WORTHLESS!!!!
Also I would put a "range" on the TR being able to see other TRs to maybe like a 30-50' deal rather than unlimited "range" on seeing other stealthed TRs. This again makes it worthless. Giving a "heightened" awareness is great, but stealth IS the TRs survivability!
TLDR:
1) After damaging a target, TR should be visiable to THAT target for only 1 second (down from 2)
2) Stealthed TRs can see other Stealthed TRs at a heightened range of 30'
Say the word and I will personally test this free of charge with you guys 24/7 untill your content
as ayroux mentioned 2 seconds is far to long, any range class will be able to cast CC on you if your throw a Cloud of Steel dagger from stealth, this needs to be 1 second for sure
I disagree with these posters.
It needs to be a solid 2 seconds. Impossible to Catch IS the TR's survivability. Being unable to be CC'd using that is a huge survivability boost in PvP compared to other classes. This is a simple case of choosing your targets carefully: A Healing DC has little to no CC and you can easily focus them down while saving Impossible to Catch for a hard CC from another class should the stealth run out. You have stealth, you're guaranteed to be able to choose and make the first attack.
If this window is 1 second, you attack, then roll, and by the end of the immunity frame, your opponent has .2 seconds to land a counter. This is unacceptable.
Let's not forget this sole important fact: you're only visible to the person you attack. To the rest of the enemy team, you're still invisible. By all basis, you could still reliably just run away from the fight and let regen/pots take over. This current proposed change also discourages stacking multiple TR's.
2 seconds is necessary. TR's still have huge damage.
If it were me making these changes, I'd have made it so that stealth broke on the first attack. Saboteur has numerous ways to restore it, and both Scoundrel and Executioner are only reliant on making that first attack from stealth.
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
If you make that visibility to enemy, then you have to terminate that TR is visible whenever he is dazed, or stunned or controlled.
And of course 2 seconds is unacceptable, if you make 2 seconds then to balance game TR should have some resist bonus in stealth, let's say 50%. But better to make it 1 second, of course dealing with visibility on dazes and control before.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
1st) I like this idea Crush however would STRONGLY encourage you to put that down to 1 second since 2 is a LONG time to be seen. This makes stealth worthless, WORTHLESS!!!!
It wouldn't make stealth worthless. It would still let you force out 1v1 situations, where the TR is meant to excel.
As long as you aren't using Blitz or Blades, you shouldn't have to worry.
Also I would put a "range" on the TR being able to see other TRs to maybe like a 30-50' deal rather than unlimited "range" on seeing other stealthed TRs. This again makes it worthless. Giving a "heightened" awareness is great, but stealth IS the TRs survivability!
This I agree with. While I understand that double TR comps can be strong, one TR giving away the other one is a little too much. Increase visibility on stealth targets to the max range on their long range abilities(Cloud of Steel, Disheartening Strike, etc.). This promotes a bit more use of one of the two teleport abilities(possibly lowering their utility and damage by a bit), while still letting a smart TR to throw blades before dodging out of sight.
will have to see the changes before making any assumptions. With this stealth nerf's tr's still have a lot of things that make them more than capable. This, to me, is a good idea until we test it out
Well, then gwf too should break unstoppable on any use of at will or encounter. Ahh and if rogue would have that cooldown on stealth then HR as well should have cooldown on melee/range, same goes with any class tab... You actually made yourselves a trouble. You made class dependent on stealth to not be inferior to other classes, so here you have result that everyone goes into stealth as often as he can. Also one other thing is that HR should not have stealth imho.
i do like your comparison to other tab abilities. it is valid. but with those other classes you can counter their tab abilities. rogues need special treatment because they are special. Not being able to see your target is a very very very big disadvantage especially when they can keep this up and do as much dps from stealth as they can now. Also the ccing people from stealth as made this nerf much needed,
also if the rogue is about to die just go stealth and wait.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited December 2014
I'd just like to add that as rogues are now, I have no complaints in PvE as a non-permastealth rogue. They are fun and work great. The damage boost we got back was just what we needed for PvE.
However, coupling that damage boost with the issues facing permastealth in PvP allows rogues to be way too powerful in PvP and even in PvE as a permastealth build. So powerful that if left unchecked, Lord Ao will start making them take on Chosens, like he did with Mystra.
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
These proposed changes sound great and a major step in the right direction to make them more balanced in PvP without compromising PvE gameplay. Looking forward to more info as things develop and being able to test them out. Many thanks!
It needs to be a solid 2 seconds. Impossible to Catch IS the TR's survivability.
ITC lasts 5 seconds. Let's have every other classes survivabilty rely on a 5 second encounter with a 15 second CD as well, shall we? Just for the sake of balance, right?
And what about the entire TR Paragon that doesn't have ITC?
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
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ITC lasts 5 seconds. Let's have every other classes survivabilty rely on a 5 second encounter with a 15 second CD as well, shall we? Just for the sake of balance, right?
And what about the entire TR Paragon that doesn't have ITC?
I thought ITC lasts 4 seconds? I might be mistaken though, haven't used it since mod 4.
Anyway I'm happy with the pseudo-proposed "TR's are visible for 2 secs (after being hit) by the person who hit them" change. I don't agree with the second suggested change so much; I don't see why another TR attacking a player should make me visible to that player. It makes no sense from a gameplay, DnD or common sense perspective.
Granted, I haven't played DnD since 3.5, but why should one TR attacking a player give them the equivalent of a natural 20 spot/listen/perception (go pathfinder!) against all other TR's hide/move silently/stealth checks?
It would make more sense to give that player the ability to see the one TR attacking them, not all TRs. Again, probably for 2 secs but would keep refreshing if the TR kept attacking.
1 sec is not enough, with latency, reaction time, immunity frames and cast times its close to impossible to land some skills, especially if you have to move to get to target
i would like better option from other games - when tr is too close hes visible
The more I think about this change, the more I think you are right in that stealth should no longer have an "end" and TRs should have some flexibility to pop in and out of stealth, especially with this "damage now makes you visible" change.
I hope at the VERY least, being "visible" doesnt mean 0% transparency but maybe like a mix of 50% transparency, so its not as if you can see a TR as CLEARLY as another player out of stealth, but maybe some outline and the ability to target the TR while in stealth.
You know, the other way you can swing all of this is to just remove attacking while in stealth. Attacks pop you out, but add crazy stealth regen to several abilities and encounters. This way it accomplishes the same "goal" of allowing them to go in and out of stealth.
Id much rather see more abilities grant stealth regen and TRs lose the ability to attack while in stealth, than have something like this. All I see is TRs becoming worthless again because of this. Very little 1v1 potential.
ITC lasts 5 seconds. Let's have every other classes survivabilty rely on a 5 second encounter with a 15 second CD as well, shall we? Just for the sake of balance, right?
And what about the entire TR Paragon that doesn't have ITC?
dude you have stealth, you have high deflection chance and severity, you have high movement speed, longest immunity frames from dodge because of the every cd. i have seen some rogues do it 4 times in a role, i don't know if that was special. And now you have the most responsible shift ability due to the extra long dodge distance. Oh and itc is cc break. deflection>def in pvp. You are still going to be gods because your dmg is still bad ****ing high. Attack and then role and you are gone. More nerfs will be needed
The more I think about this change, the more I think you are right in that stealth should no longer have an "end" and TRs should have some flexibility to pop in and out of stealth, especially with this "damage now makes you visible" change.
I hope at the VERY least, being "visible" doesnt mean 0% transparency but maybe like a mix of 50% transparency, so its not as if you can see a TR as CLEARLY as another player out of stealth, but maybe some outline and the ability to target the TR while in stealth.
You know, the other way you can swing all of this is to just remove attacking while in stealth. Attacks pop you out, but add crazy stealth regen to several abilities and encounters. This way it accomplishes the same "goal" of allowing them to go in and out of stealfth.
Id much rather see more abilities grant stealth regen and TRs lose the ability to attack while in stealth, than have something like this. All I see is TRs becoming worthless again because of this. Very little 1v1 potential.
if shadow opportunity , was given an icd on bloodbath, and duelist flurry, and conclusive strike cc wasn't so long. Or rogues should'nt be able to cc from stealth or dodge in stealth, they everything would be better. They keep their insane dps but lose some ultility. The only problem would be that hr's might completely dominate them.
I just realized none of what is offered in the changes does anything about the OP WK/Sab builds.
As a matter of fact, this variation of Sab becomes even more powerful, considering that all other Sab variants, like the MI version using constant GCs from stealth, is going to be relatively 'nerfed' in the new system. In contrast, the WK/Sab still has the First-Strike - DHS to rely on... and it's a DoT, so only the very first hit is going to briefly reveal the TR... and then for a long time you're going to be bleeding 4k ticks for the next 15 seconds while not being able to target anything.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
That's all good and dandy for countering saboteurs somewhat. But what about executioners with their 1 hit KO Shocking Execution daily that ignores all defenses including tenacity and encounters like Lashing Blade hitting for over 30k after mitigation? And what about perma-daze scoundrels with their 5s and longer dazes that unlike stuns don't get deflected?
Also, what's up with gloaming cut? I've seen TRs hitting for 25k with it in PvP. And it's an at-will.
ITC lasts 5 seconds. Let's have every other classes survivabilty rely on a 5 second encounter with a 15 second CD as well, shall we? Just for the sake of balance, right?
And what about the entire TR Paragon that doesn't have ITC?
Whisperknives have Vengeance's pursuit in addition to Disheartening strike, which is a DoT. Granted, Vengeance's pursuit doesn't grant 100% CC immunity, it is a CC break and allows you to teleport to your target, Disheartening strike more than makes up for that fact.
In any case, with a 15 sec cooldown, ITC effectively has 33% uptime compared to it's cooldown, and it's cooldown is the same length as the cooldown for One with the Shadows capstone for Saboteur.
The more I think about this change, the more I think you are right in that stealth should no longer have an "end" and TRs should have some flexibility to pop in and out of stealth, especially with this "damage now makes you visible" change.
I hope at the VERY least, being "visible" doesnt mean 0% transparency but maybe like a mix of 50% transparency, so its not as if you can see a TR as CLEARLY as another player out of stealth, but maybe some outline and the ability to target the TR while in stealth.
You know, the other way you can swing all of this is to just remove attacking while in stealth. Attacks pop you out, but add crazy stealth regen to several abilities and encounters. This way it accomplishes the same "goal" of allowing them to go in and out of stealth.
Id much rather see more abilities grant stealth regen and TRs lose the ability to attack while in stealth, than have something like this. All I see is TRs becoming worthless again because of this. Very little 1v1 potential.
Stealth guarantees the first strike with 100% crit at this point. Giving a 2 second window to counter is very balanced. I support full visibility to the hit player during this time. So long as an enemy health bar and red name shows up with 100% visibility, this is fine.
In regards to your second section for stealth being broken upon attack, Saboteur has instant stealth every 15 secs, Executioner has built in stealth regeneration, and Scoundrel isn't so reliant on stealth.
I just realized none of what is offered in the changes does anything about the OP WK/Sab builds.
As a matter of fact, this variation of Sab becomes even more powerful, considering that all other Sab variants, like the MI version using constant GCs from stealth, is going to be relatively 'nerfed' in the new system. In contrast, the WK/Sab still has the First-Strike - DHS to rely on... and it's a DoT, so only the very first hit is going to briefly reveal the TR... and then for a long time you're going to be bleeding 4k ticks for the next 15 seconds while not being able to target anything.
Whisperknives have Vengeance's pursuit in addition to Disheartening strike, which is a DoT. Granted, Vengeance's pursuit doesn't grant 100% CC immunity, it is a CC break and allows you to teleport to your target, Disheartening strike more than makes up for that fact.
Um, no it doesn't.
VP's viability in PvP was thrown out the window a long time ago. Right now, to take effect of VP's CC Break mechanic, you have to be CC'd first. That means something's a few seconds away from killing you anyway. DS doesn't make up for ITC. ITC negates the effectiveness of CC before it strikes. Not to mention the other obvious advantages of ITC.
Stealth guarantees the first strike with 100% crit at this point. Giving a 2 second window to counter is very balanced. I support full visibility to the hit player during this time. So long as an enemy health bar and red name shows up with 100% visibility, this is fine.
In regards to your second section for stealth being broken upon attack, Saboteur has instant stealth every 15 secs, Executioner has built in stealth regeneration, and Scoundrel isn't so reliant on stealth.
That's 2 seconds of mashing Dodge, praying that CW doesn't have the common sense to Icy Rays or time their CC. This is a pretty direct nerf to Whisperknife. Odd, considering MI Exec is the hot topic right now, not WK Sab.
I can understand attacks draining stealth. I can't understand being automatically visible while... being invisible. The fact that the devs can't see the obvious power creep or even balance TR without making it capable of wiping a whole team is testament enough to how bad this is going to end.
At this point, I'll take my Mod 4 TR back. So far, we've bad:
1) Fresh Mod5 TR - Broken
2) Post SoD "Fix" - Broken
3) Proposed stealth "fix" that negates the point of stealth
We're doing good.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Um, no it doesn't.
VP's viability in PvP was thrown out the window a long time ago. Right now, to take effect of VP's CC Break mechanic, you have to be CC'd first. That means something's a few seconds away from killing you anyway. DS doesn't make up for ITC. ITC negates the effectiveness of CC before it strikes. Not to mention the other obvious advantages of ITC.
That's 2 seconds of mashing Dodge, praying that CW doesn't have the common sense to Icy Rays or time their CC. This is a pretty direct nerf to Whisperknife. Odd, considering MI Exec is the hot topic right now, not WK Sab.
I can understand attacks draining stealth. I can't understand being automatically visible while... being invisible. The fact that the devs can't see the obvious power creep or even balance TR without making it capable of wiping a whole team is testament enough to how bad this is going to end.
At this point, I'll take my Mod 4 TR back. So far, we've bad:
1) Fresh Mod5 TR - Broken
2) Post SoD "Fix" - Broken
3) Proposed stealth "fix" that negates the point of stealth
Ay caramba! Finally the whiners don't have anything to whine about! Better check this myself.
They'll find something.
Now, the way that crush worded it, it sounds like the "reveal all TRs instead of just the one" is an engine limitation. Still, I think that looking into some way of implementing the fix WITHOUT adding this is important. If some idiot on my team decides that PotB or bloodbath is a good idea, he's going to completely ruin MY game. And there's nothing that I can do about it. It doesn't make sense from a logic point of view, and from a gameplay perspective, it's just bad. My teammates shouldn't be able to so directly kill me.
Ay caramba! Finally the whiners don't have anything to whine about! Better check this myself.
still got plenty of complaints that can't separate perma-stealth from scoundrels or think that a perma is actually gonna sacrifice all their offensive stats for 50% deflect
Comments
I disagree with these posters.
It needs to be a solid 2 seconds. Impossible to Catch IS the TR's survivability. Being unable to be CC'd using that is a huge survivability boost in PvP compared to other classes. This is a simple case of choosing your targets carefully: A Healing DC has little to no CC and you can easily focus them down while saving Impossible to Catch for a hard CC from another class should the stealth run out. You have stealth, you're guaranteed to be able to choose and make the first attack.
If this window is 1 second, you attack, then roll, and by the end of the immunity frame, your opponent has .2 seconds to land a counter. This is unacceptable.
Let's not forget this sole important fact: you're only visible to the person you attack. To the rest of the enemy team, you're still invisible. By all basis, you could still reliably just run away from the fight and let regen/pots take over. This current proposed change also discourages stacking multiple TR's.
2 seconds is necessary. TR's still have huge damage.
If it were me making these changes, I'd have made it so that stealth broke on the first attack. Saboteur has numerous ways to restore it, and both Scoundrel and Executioner are only reliant on making that first attack from stealth.
If you make that visibility to enemy, then you have to terminate that TR is visible whenever he is dazed, or stunned or controlled.
And of course 2 seconds is unacceptable, if you make 2 seconds then to balance game TR should have some resist bonus in stealth, let's say 50%. But better to make it 1 second, of course dealing with visibility on dazes and control before.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
It wouldn't make stealth worthless. It would still let you force out 1v1 situations, where the TR is meant to excel.
As long as you aren't using Blitz or Blades, you shouldn't have to worry.
This I agree with. While I understand that double TR comps can be strong, one TR giving away the other one is a little too much. Increase visibility on stealth targets to the max range on their long range abilities(Cloud of Steel, Disheartening Strike, etc.). This promotes a bit more use of one of the two teleport abilities(possibly lowering their utility and damage by a bit), while still letting a smart TR to throw blades before dodging out of sight.
gonna be weird
However, coupling that damage boost with the issues facing permastealth in PvP allows rogues to be way too powerful in PvP and even in PvE as a permastealth build. So powerful that if left unchecked, Lord Ao will start making them take on Chosens, like he did with Mystra.
These proposed changes sound great and a major step in the right direction to make them more balanced in PvP without compromising PvE gameplay. Looking forward to more info as things develop and being able to test them out. Many thanks!
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And what about the entire TR Paragon that doesn't have ITC?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
oh i missed this post!
it seems we will be back to running circles
can we say goodbye to stealth depletion at least?
Bolded part for emphasis. Typing out most of a profanity with a final asterisk to dodge the filter is the same as if you'd typed out the word unfiltered. Clear vulgar intent is still a violation and will be treated accordingly.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I thought ITC lasts 4 seconds? I might be mistaken though, haven't used it since mod 4.
Anyway I'm happy with the pseudo-proposed "TR's are visible for 2 secs (after being hit) by the person who hit them" change. I don't agree with the second suggested change so much; I don't see why another TR attacking a player should make me visible to that player. It makes no sense from a gameplay, DnD or common sense perspective.
Granted, I haven't played DnD since 3.5, but why should one TR attacking a player give them the equivalent of a natural 20 spot/listen/perception (go pathfinder!) against all other TR's hide/move silently/stealth checks?
It would make more sense to give that player the ability to see the one TR attacking them, not all TRs. Again, probably for 2 secs but would keep refreshing if the TR kept attacking.
i would like better option from other games - when tr is too close hes visible
The more I think about this change, the more I think you are right in that stealth should no longer have an "end" and TRs should have some flexibility to pop in and out of stealth, especially with this "damage now makes you visible" change.
I hope at the VERY least, being "visible" doesnt mean 0% transparency but maybe like a mix of 50% transparency, so its not as if you can see a TR as CLEARLY as another player out of stealth, but maybe some outline and the ability to target the TR while in stealth.
You know, the other way you can swing all of this is to just remove attacking while in stealth. Attacks pop you out, but add crazy stealth regen to several abilities and encounters. This way it accomplishes the same "goal" of allowing them to go in and out of stealth.
Id much rather see more abilities grant stealth regen and TRs lose the ability to attack while in stealth, than have something like this. All I see is TRs becoming worthless again because of this. Very little 1v1 potential.
dude you have stealth, you have high deflection chance and severity, you have high movement speed, longest immunity frames from dodge because of the every cd. i have seen some rogues do it 4 times in a role, i don't know if that was special. And now you have the most responsible shift ability due to the extra long dodge distance. Oh and itc is cc break. deflection>def in pvp. You are still going to be gods because your dmg is still bad ****ing high. Attack and then role and you are gone. More nerfs will be needed
if shadow opportunity , was given an icd on bloodbath, and duelist flurry, and conclusive strike cc wasn't so long. Or rogues should'nt be able to cc from stealth or dodge in stealth, they everything would be better. They keep their insane dps but lose some ultility. The only problem would be that hr's might completely dominate them.
As a matter of fact, this variation of Sab becomes even more powerful, considering that all other Sab variants, like the MI version using constant GCs from stealth, is going to be relatively 'nerfed' in the new system. In contrast, the WK/Sab still has the First-Strike - DHS to rely on... and it's a DoT, so only the very first hit is going to briefly reveal the TR... and then for a long time you're going to be bleeding 4k ticks for the next 15 seconds while not being able to target anything.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That's all good and dandy for countering saboteurs somewhat. But what about executioners with their 1 hit KO Shocking Execution daily that ignores all defenses including tenacity and encounters like Lashing Blade hitting for over 30k after mitigation? And what about perma-daze scoundrels with their 5s and longer dazes that unlike stuns don't get deflected?
Also, what's up with gloaming cut? I've seen TRs hitting for 25k with it in PvP. And it's an at-will.
Whisperknives have Vengeance's pursuit in addition to Disheartening strike, which is a DoT. Granted, Vengeance's pursuit doesn't grant 100% CC immunity, it is a CC break and allows you to teleport to your target, Disheartening strike more than makes up for that fact.
In any case, with a 15 sec cooldown, ITC effectively has 33% uptime compared to it's cooldown, and it's cooldown is the same length as the cooldown for One with the Shadows capstone for Saboteur.
Stealth guarantees the first strike with 100% crit at this point. Giving a 2 second window to counter is very balanced. I support full visibility to the hit player during this time. So long as an enemy health bar and red name shows up with 100% visibility, this is fine.
In regards to your second section for stealth being broken upon attack, Saboteur has instant stealth every 15 secs, Executioner has built in stealth regeneration, and Scoundrel isn't so reliant on stealth.
Um, no it doesn't.
VP's viability in PvP was thrown out the window a long time ago. Right now, to take effect of VP's CC Break mechanic, you have to be CC'd first. That means something's a few seconds away from killing you anyway. DS doesn't make up for ITC. ITC negates the effectiveness of CC before it strikes. Not to mention the other obvious advantages of ITC.
That's 2 seconds of mashing Dodge, praying that CW doesn't have the common sense to Icy Rays or time their CC. This is a pretty direct nerf to Whisperknife. Odd, considering MI Exec is the hot topic right now, not WK Sab.
I can understand attacks draining stealth. I can't understand being automatically visible while... being invisible. The fact that the devs can't see the obvious power creep or even balance TR without making it capable of wiping a whole team is testament enough to how bad this is going to end.
At this point, I'll take my Mod 4 TR back. So far, we've bad:
1) Fresh Mod5 TR - Broken
2) Post SoD "Fix" - Broken
3) Proposed stealth "fix" that negates the point of stealth
We're doing good.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Ay caramba! Finally the whiners don't have anything to whine about! Better check this myself.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
They'll find something.
Now, the way that crush worded it, it sounds like the "reveal all TRs instead of just the one" is an engine limitation. Still, I think that looking into some way of implementing the fix WITHOUT adding this is important. If some idiot on my team decides that PotB or bloodbath is a good idea, he's going to completely ruin MY game. And there's nothing that I can do about it. It doesn't make sense from a logic point of view, and from a gameplay perspective, it's just bad. My teammates shouldn't be able to so directly kill me.
shocking has always done that, but at least it was ninja nerfed prior to mod 5 launch
it can be dodged though
still got plenty of complaints that can't separate perma-stealth from scoundrels or think that a perma is actually gonna sacrifice all their offensive stats for 50% deflect
I thought devs learned from their mistakes since Piercing Blade. Obviously I was wrong.