"Sabs must stay in stealth for max effect so they need stealth more than others, hence for Sabs all at-will stealth depletion must be cut down to half"
or...
"Scos need those CCs otherwise everything about a Sco falls apart. So, Scos must be granted some amount of CC-immunity penetration and CC resistance penetration like the CWs and their 66% control resist ignore..."
Feats and how they work, is what makes up that particular build/path's inherent strengths and weaknesses. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see the way Executioners, as well as the Shadowborn feat is set-up, is intended for strong, opportunistic, singular attacks made from stealth. In turn, it doesn't go well with persistent, repeating attacks, so you choose one over the other. That's a build, and a choice. If a player wants consistent attack buffs with every attack, then he should be playing Sabs, not Execs.
Let's not be too greedy.
It isn't like saying any of that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you said at all and it isn't requesting anything new or more, only to work exactly like it is described and that is to increase the power on the next attack made by the TR by 100%, not an attack the TR made previously.
It is quite clear that it is intended to be a powerup for the next attack and that is precisely how the exe is explained and designed -- to power up a big attack. Having it fire on an attack you performed 8 seconds ago is obviously not intended. Do you honestly think they intend for the executioner to not use DF, not use bilethorn, not use smokebomb, not use potb, not use lightfoot, not use green dragon glyph, or a multitude of other things in the game or to use these things and then run the very likely chance to not benefit at all from this feat?
It is quite clear that it is intended to be a powerup for the next attack and that is precisely how the exe is explained and designed -- to power up a big attack. Having it fire on an attack you performed 8 seconds ago is obviously not intended. Do you honestly think they intend for the executioner to not use DF, not use bilethorn, not use smokebomb, not use potb, not use lightfoot, not use green dragon glyph, or a multitude of other things in the game or to use these things and then run the very likely chance to not benefit at all from this feat?
Seriously, why would Shadowborn trigger off the DoTs and damage application from an attack made BEFORE Shadowborn was even triggered by entering stealth.
This IS potentially a bug. Good catch.
Campaign - Trail of the Imaskarcana (NWS-DMFG77QOF)
Possibly it should ignore any effects already ongoing -- if such can be implemented. The executioner is so critical with stealth that it would be virtually impossible to micro manage any dot/potb/etc effects and wait for them to expire. The could opt to not use any persistent damage effects altogether but they are only working with part of the TR toolset as it is and to lower that more is heavily handicapping that path.
Maybe they could change it to affect the next encounter used. would make it easier to manage that way
i decided to spec to executioner and use lurker's assault to see if that bug affects other things than impact shot. turn out it doesn't and no longer works with impact shot like it used when i checked months ago....
from what i can tell, executioner is too dependent on stealth to benefit from their feats. still, those 1-shots......
@gentlemancrush
sorry to call it like that but if possible i would like a direct answer from you.
More and more times people ( me included....many times) complained about survivability out of stealth and excessive high cooldowns.
I like how you handle the first problem giving some little more deflect on dex allowing to build around that stat, it maybe will not solve the problem but hei it's really something and i appreciate it.
What really bugs me are cooldowns: to have reasonable cooldowns ( example being 16s lashing blade, 11 seconds shadow strike, 14 seconds impossible to catch, 16 second smoke bomb, 20 seconds path of the blade, 10 seconds dazing strike, 10 seconds blitz ) i have to stack recovery at 2400 while still having INT at 19.
This does not allow me to build around critical strike, deflect (dex & cha), power, armor pen because every time i have a slot free it's ALWAYS more usefull ( and damaging ) to stack even more recovery. It's not rare for me to do more dps than other trickster with 10k power when i run with about 5500 ( with stone ).
Have you looked at the problem and found it just right or have you plan to fix this?
@gentlemancrush
sorry to call it like that but if possible i would like a direct answer from you.
More and more times people ( me included....many times) complained about survivability out of stealth and excessive high cooldowns.
I like how you handle the first problem giving some little more deflect on dex allowing to build around that stat, it maybe will not solve the problem but hei it's really something and i appreciate it.
What really bugs me are cooldowns: to have reasonable cooldowns ( example being 16s lashing blade, 11 seconds shadow strike, 14 seconds impossible to catch, 16 second smoke bomb, 20 seconds path of the blade, 10 seconds dazing strike, 10 seconds blitz ) i have to stack recovery at 2400 while still having INT at 19.
This does not allow me to build around critical strike, deflect (dex & cha), power, armor pen because every time i have a slot free it's ALWAYS more usefull ( and damaging ) to stack even more recovery. It's not rare for me to do more dps than other trickster with 10k power when i run with about 5500 ( with stone ).
Have you looked at the problem and found it just right or have you plan to fix this?
agreed. i mean, is there a rogue who doesn't stack recovery? i can't imagine trying to deal with deadly aoes with an itc that has a longer cooldown than 14 seconds. 18 sec lashing is also horrible.
it's kinda the only thing stopping me from respeccing into full deflect on live. recovery and deflect together equals high survivability due to lower cooldowns on itc and dazes. i rather stick with my 14 sec itc and 16 sec lashing than have 4% more deflect >.>.
Has anybody actually even thought about what the real issue is behind this damage?
TR would have good, bout not OP damage if everything wouldn't be a 100% CRIT from Stealth.
That's the real problem.
i said that earlier too :P
that is the root of several problems right now. the devaluation of dex due to auto-criticals, attacks that would be a gamble with their crit rates now all hit for their maximum, and even procs from feats being boosted by the auto-criticals.
Has anybody actually even thought about what the real issue is behind this damage?
TR would have good, but not OP damage if everything wouldn't be a 100% CRIT from Stealth.
That's the real problem.
100% crit from stealth is needed unless they want to rework every rogue encounter and daily from the base level, which, really they kinda needed to do that anyway. This is ESPECIALLY true of how TR sits somewhat comfortably in PVE on preview. Rogue damage is only "OP" vs squishies and is offset by melee range, low survivability, and mediocre mobility.
A TR can easily kill someone with low defense and low HP in a couple of seconds, but the reverse is also true as a TR has low defense and low HP. How a given TR is able use stealth, land attacks, and positions themselves will vastly affect their performance. This could lead to the TR in question killing someone without getting hit even once, or them getting wiped out in an instant.
Initially I suggested disabling auto-crit in PVP or a 20% global damage debuff for TR in PVP only. But after fighting some GF's, GWFs, HR's, and DC's in preview I wouldn't stand by that anymore, especially if your looking at the whole TR population rather than just the top 5%.
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treecool91Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
I did sort of think that instead of 100% crit that an increase in severity might have been wiser. Strength would still be a better choice than dex for damage but critical chance stat would have value again. On the extreme end it could be more damage, though, but it would be more spiky I guess. I didn't think on it too much so not sure in the long run if it would have been better overall for balance or not.
BUG :
-Concussive Strikes : Opponents No Daze with PoB (Path of the Blade) When Critical happened.
Feedback :
-Smoke Bomb : increase Duration from 1 to 2 per Rank + Area like 'Thorn Ward (Skill of HR)
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited November 2014
I respecced to sab to test out the feat that gives us piercing damage. At 5k power i seem to do 2000 about per hit. Unfortnately i cant figure out how to get act to work witg test server.
Anyhow outside of bb it adds about double tge damage for cloud of steel but doesnt seem problematic. However if it is working at 2k unmitigatable damage per hit a BB hirining samepe4son 10x should be 20k damage regardless of what bb does. However i need to test more looking at logs makes my eyes glaze over.
I respecced to sab to test out the feat that gives us piercing damage. At 5k power i seem to do 2000 about per hit. Unfortnately i cant figure out how to get act to work witg test server.
Anyhow outside of bb it adds about double tge damage for cloud of steel but doesnt seem problematic. However if it is working at 2k unmitigatable damage per hit a BB hirining samepe4son 10x should be 20k damage regardless of what bb does. However i need to test more looking at logs makes my eyes glaze over.
and 2k is the right number, considering damage bonus for combat adv, damage bonus from cha, damage bonus from str, damage bonus from feat. 4k they said... pls. I posted a screenshot of act some pages ago
BUG: EXECUTIONER - SHADOW BORN
the feat does not apply if there is a continuous damage source in between.
example:
stealth ----> lashing blade ---->35.5k damage done
path of the blade ----> stealth
> lashing blade
> 20k damage done
or
duelist flurry
> bleeds
> stealth
> lashing blade ----> 20k damage done.
basically you dont get the 100% more power if a continuous damage source is doing its job.
proof is that damage of bleeds does not increase.
I respecced to sab to test out the feat that gives us piercing damage. At 5k power i seem to do 2000 about per hit. Unfortnately i cant figure out how to get act to work witg test server.
Anyhow outside of bb it adds about double tge damage for cloud of steel but doesnt seem problematic. However if it is working at 2k unmitigatable damage per hit a BB hirining samepe4son 10x should be 20k damage regardless of what bb does. However i need to test more looking at logs makes my eyes glaze over.
Indeed, BB is doing 20K+ unmitigated damage with shadowy opportunity and this is the reason everyone is flipping out over it. I noticed this and mentioned it on page 46 and possibly before that. As far as base damage goes BB actually does LESS damage than flurry. Go hit a single mob with a unstealthed flurry including the bleed ticks, and a unstealthed BB and you'll see what I'm talking about. BB is a series of multiple hits over several seconds and there are a lot of ways to soak up that damage, not to mention you bounce around from target to target if more than one is in range. That level of dmg coming from a daily with a long lasting daze prerequisite is IMO not asking for too much. When you consider that a rogue might be using a daily around once per minute compared to every 20 seconds or less with an encounter. Minus the shadowy opportunity damage and a daze/shocking execution combo is going to be better in most situations in PVP....... even before the SE buff coming on friday. I think multiple procs of SO coming from BB needs to be addressed and if base damage is changed then there needs to be more utility with bloodbath. Won't be any skin off my back, it'll just go in the "completely useless" pile of TR encounters and dailies, which is like half of them, and I so loved using it in dragon HE's.
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
Indeed, BB is doing 20K+ unmitigated damage with shadowy opportunity and this is the reason everyone is flipping out over it. I noticed this and mentioned it on page 46 and possibly before that. As far as base damage goes BB actually does LESS damage than flurry. Go hit a single mob with a unstealthed flurry including the bleed ticks, and a unstealthed BB and you'll see what I'm talking about. BB is a series of multiple hits over several seconds and there are a lot of ways to soak up that damage, not to mention you bounce around from target to target if more than one is in range. That level of dmg coming from a daily with a long lasting daze prerequisite is IMO not asking for too much. When you consider that a rogue might be using a daily around once per minute compared to every 20 seconds or less with an encounter. Minus the shadowy opportunity damage and a daze/shocking execution combo is going to be better in most situations in PVP....... even before the SE buff coming on friday. I think multiple procs of SO coming from BB needs to be addressed and if base damage is changed then there needs to be more utility with bloodbath. Won't be any skin off my back, it'll just go in the "completely useless" pile of TR encounters and dailies, which is like half of them, and I so loved using it in dragon HE's.
BB isnt the issue, its damage should not be changed. I was simply taking a second look at the feats and geting a more informed look at the current hubabaloo around this. I think that Shadow oportunity, as it interacts with most At-will and Encounters is fine, it adds a bit of extra damage but i dont think is a problem given how short i expect to be in stealth.
But BB shouldnt be doing 20k un-mitegated damage, so how it interacts witht he various feats need to be addressed. this has nothing to do with BB's base damage.
BB can do up to 40k base damage with another 20-30k (or more) from Shadowy Opportunity. There's logs of such earlier (cbf to go through the pages to find it). Tbh it's not the base damage that's the issue, it's the multitudes of damage bonuses such as combat advantage and the 100% crit chance that's the issue. Unfortunately, I don't think you can remove the 100% crit chance without needing to vastly rebalance other things such as encounters and other damage, but instead of a 100% crit chance bonus (atm stealth adds +100% to your crit stat, so you go from 18% crit to 118%), it could be all encounters crit from stealth, and with a 50% bonus crit chance to at-wills and dailies. This also makes the crit stat useful again. Honestly, I'm still hesitant about something like that because TR is in a fine position right now with the exception of bloodbath + shadowy opportunity synergy (and possibly SE depending on how much damage it'll do after the buff). BB/SO will do even more damage after the new updates because you now have 20 hits of red glyphs to go with that (bis pvp set will have overload slots).
Hi guys! Here to comment on a couple of issues concerning TR"s as well as reporting some bugs
A) Damage
Yea TR damage is a bit over the top atm but me and a couple other established Top Tier PvPiers have been playing countless amounts of 5v5 on the PTR trying to determine what is and what isnt for the next module and from what I can see, TR's damage is On Par or Where it needs to be in order to contend with the other classes
DC's Healing Counters TR
GWF's Long Range Damage is a good Method of Catching TR's
GF need some more love again (shocking)
CW's Are in a very good spot to counter DC's
SW Needs a bit of Love
HR is still HR, but even HR's damage is completely necessary at the Moment
I will touch upon each class in greater detail during my State of Module 5 PvP address, so far I do believe this may be the most balanced PvP module since M2
TR needs it current damage on the PTR to contend with other classes, should a nerf be recieved it will be unable to face the majority of classes on an even playing field
With that being said...
Bloodbaths Damage is a bit laughable however I feel that we might need it in order to actually need it, otherwise all of our dailies are kinda pathetic - pending SE changes-
although Moderate Nerf Advised maybe 10-15% damage
Shadowy Opprotunity in the Sab Tree is a bit Overkill, although as mentioned before This damage is necessary to contend with other classes
Whisper Knife Disheartening stikre:
I can make this at will deal 97K damage on 1 application of the ability, this needs an immediate nerf up to 50% of its base damage
This was the bleed per tick
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 9074 (8642) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
Anyone who wants me to repeat this can ask
Bugs:
Impossible to catch Still bugs out if any damage/CC is applied in the same frame as the ITC Buff so that it results in a cool down and no activation
Impossible to catch also does not activate if triggered during Soul Forge immunity stage of the Soul forge revival
Shadow Strike: Still bugs out without activation of ability and cycles cooldown if target steps out of range during its affects
Hard to fix that one ^ but maybe improved casting time will help
Dodge rolls - Dodge roll stamina has been properly adjusted, however the distance has remained unchanged
Also, Casting time on dodge roll is way to long, any smart player can use an AoE with a slight time delay after a TR dodge roll, and the TR is 100% unable to activate a dodge in an appropriate amount of time to avoid the ability
i have tested this theory countless times spammming my shift button and hopping to avoid the damage to no success
maybe when the range of the dodge roll is fixed, it will improve results with the dodge
To much cooldown in between dodges I guess you could say
Sabotuer Capstone: I have encountered in multiple occasions where the capstone will proc, but not consume the buff, therefore enabling use of the capstone twice in a row
As sic stated but I can't believe these still haven't been fixed/address
Impossible to catch: power goes on cool down and does not trigger the effect if cc is applied when we hit it. This needs to be looked at
Shadow strike: power goes on cool down and does not trigger effect if target moves out of range or if we get cc'ed. This one happens but is hard to pin down. You can fix it by having the effect trigger sooner but have the animation last the same time.
Our dodge roll. We need to have the ability to roll twice immediately. The delay after rolling is exploitable in pvp by anyone who has half a brain.
When/if you nerf bloodbath, please keep in mind that it is a daily, one of the few left that are useful. So don't nerf it to uselessness (aka emblem). Please use moderation
I have always thought this was one of the coolest abilities we had. First the character laughs and then jumps around like a maniac. Would love to still be able to use it and it be effective
This is really buggy on preview right now. Sometimes it triggers and sometimes not. Adding in dots just seems to confuse things.
I suggest making this proc on "encounter" use. That way it is measurable and better able to time. The executioner path could use it though am thankful of the coming changes.
Suggestion: Duelist flurry
I would just like to suggest that this at will not count as a million hits in regard to stealth depletion. You can still accomplish goal of taking us out of stealth but just have the 3rd hit remove 15% stealth. This would greatly help sustained dps in dungeons
I still say it's better to change OP stuff like Bloodbath, so it fills some of the "holes" in the TR's utility/defense/CC etc etc.. instead of try to defend it the way it is, as a huge damage power with little methods of direct countering. There could be any number of creative ideas that snips away the OP damage, but replaces it with useful utilities.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I still say it's better to change OP stuff like Bloodbath, so it fills some of the "holes" in the TR's utility/defense/CC etc etc.. instead of try to defend it the way it is, as a huge damage power with little methods of direct countering. There could be any number of creative ideas that snips away the OP damage, but replaces it with useful utilities.
Except bloodbath isnt the issue. Its the feats why nerf bloodbath when not every tr will have those feats. However it shoukdnt trigger its effects 10x just once.
I still say it's better to change OP stuff like Bloodbath, so it fills some of the "holes" in the TR's utility/defense/CC etc etc.. instead of try to defend it the way it is, as a huge damage power with little methods of direct countering. There could be any number of creative ideas that snips away the OP damage, but replaces it with useful utilities.
it isn't bloodbath that is at fault though. nothing is gonna balance the fact that 20k damage is bypassing all forms of mitigation unless it will only proc shadowy opportunity once. courage breaker is also a multi-hit daily that only procs shadowy opportunity once.
but what do you consider op damage?
1st strike lashing blade + shadow of demise = 60k damage (40k + 20k) with only 90% severity in stealth and can easily ignore around 50% mitigation if you have the executioner armor pen.
1st strike whirlwind of blades = 27k damage with 90% severity which can also ignore all but tenacity probably for executioners. that's instant death to the majority of squishies in the entire game since the only players i have seen with above 30k hp as wizards/hunters were all in hardcore pvp guilds (players i don't run into frequently unless i approach page 120 on leaderboards). if used correctly, this can even nuke 2-5 people on the entire enemy team and it doesn't even require good gear to pull it off. if anyone does survive it, you still remain in stealth for a finishing lashing blade.
^might be 1-shot tactics, but rogues are assassins in the 1st place
and we already have the ultimate defensive daily. it's called courage breaker and it's 10 seconds of 90% weaken/slow which practically makes our target a sitting duck until it wears off. it even works on bosses. nothing is gonna beat that....ever
it isn't bloodbath that is at fault though. nothing is gonna balance the fact that 20k damage is bypassing all forms of mitigation unless it will only proc shadowy opportunity once. courage breaker is also a multi-hit daily that only procs shadowy opportunity once.
but what do you consider op damage?
Good question.
There isn't a really set value, but IMO it may be loosely defined as:
"An amount of damage/ill-effect that is powerful enough to determine the outcome of the fight by itself, with no realistic vision/chance of the victim inflicted with it recovering from it, or managing oneself better to turn the odds"
Or, alternately, it might also be defined as;
"An amount of damage/ill-effect that is so powerful, as to make null & void the entire process of combat that has transpired thus far, and straightly determining the results of combat regardless of who fought better and who fought worse."
If you've seen my video against Papa the GWF, you'd understand that the entire fight was generally going toward my direction, with me constantly gaining the upperhand and dominating the fight without letting go of the combat initiative, and basically dictating the fight to my own terms as I fought the way I wanted to... but then, within a few seconds, **BAM!!** Ferocious Reaction + Intimidation, and I'm suddenly declared the loser. Stuff like this, I'd consider OP.
Ofcourse, it probably needs to take into account the individual classes and how they fight, rather than be decided based on just the numbers, but I'd say any singular power/attack/combo that becomes practically a Deus ex Machina of combat -- the ultimate determiner -- so powerful as to ignore whatever happened along the way, and just decide who wins (or is going to win), would be viewed as OP.
It doesn't matter if one has dominated the fight the entire time, clearly showing signs of better skill -- if the Sab has full AP and just one moment to land a Shadow Strike from stealth, then the winner is almost as if predetermined. Compared to the risk/rewards of the Sab finding that moment to initiate the attack, for the other guy it's not enough that he's played much better along the way. He also has to be perfect to the very end to not allow even a second of such opportunity to the Sab, or otherwise the game's instantly decided.
I consider powers/damage that allow these situations to happen, as "OP".
1st strike lashing blade + shadow of demise = 60k damage (40k + 20k) with only 90% severity in stealth and can easily ignore around 50% mitigation if you have the executioner armor pen.
1st strike whirlwind of blades = 27k damage with 90% severity which can also ignore all but tenacity probably for executioners. that's instant death to the majority of squishies in the entire game since the only players i have seen with above 30k hp as wizards/hunters were all in hardcore pvp guilds (players i don't run into frequently unless i approach page 120 on leaderboards). if used correctly, this can even nuke 2-5 people on the entire enemy team and it doesn't even require good gear to pull it off. if anyone does survive it, you still remain in stealth for a finishing lashing blade.
First of all, the "average standard" of HP pool has moved onto over 30k after mod3, presumably around 32~33k at the least to be considered "average levels" for PvP. People who still have only 22k ~ 25k HP (usually 11~12k GS) are either relatively fresh lv60s, or people who are not really built for PvP. I've recently raised a HR to lv60 (with the purpose of making a viable PvP build/tactic out of Archery rough times), and I was already blowing past 30k HP at lv56 or 57 in the ~59 bracket. If you want to use these as a testbed for your argument, then so should you be using a TR at the same level/gear range as the inflictor, not yourself.
In this aspect, in the same GS/power range, only the Executioner First-Strike LB may considered "OP" levels, although a lot of it is offset by the fact that such build/tactics with an Executioner basically remains a fragile glass cannon which fires only once per round. All the rest of the methods hit hard no doubt, but not so hard as to determine the entire fight.
^might be 1-shot tactics, but rogues are assassins in the 1st place
Rogues are rogues, not assassins. Assassins and their archetypes are only a small, factional part of what the rogue is.
...and we already have the ultimate defensive daily. it's called courage breaker and it's 10 seconds of 90% weaken/slow which practically makes our target a sitting duck until it wears off. it even works on bosses. nothing is gonna beat that....ever
That's why I said "creative thinking", remember?
Why suppose that a new utility-based Daily has to be fired off like CB? From the top of my head I can think of these variations which would be (at least for me) 100 times more interesting, cool, and useful to use than an automatic "I-WIN" button:
■ Bloodbath as a special debuff/burst
- melee, 25% AP, 10s cooldown
- utilitarian daily with small~moderate damage
- leaves a "Bloodmark" on the target for 15s, "Bloodmark" dazes for 2s on initial deployment
- "Bloodmark" increase damage of your at-wills on the target by 5%, slows target movement by 5%
- max 4 stacks
■ Bloodbath replaced with special self-buff
- buff, 50% AP, 45s cooldown, lasts for 8s
- deflection chance +20%
- deflection severity by +15%
- movement speed by +20%
- attack speed by +20%
- CC resistance by +50%
■ Bloodbath, special debuff/attack focused on the "blood" concept
- 100% AP, melee
- target will suffer low damage, constantly bleeding 2% of HP lost every 2s for a total of 20s
- each time the target bleeds, the target loses 2% of its movement speed (stacks)
- each time the target bleeds, healing effect on the target is reduced by 2% (stacks)
- each bleed has a 5% chance to cause dizziness, causing a 1.0s daze
- with the final bleed, target faints due to massive loss of blood -- proned for 3s
etc etc..
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
TR is almost in a great place now. There are only a few aspects that should be looked at, not necessarily nerfed, but maybe modify in utility.
- 100% Crit unavoidable huge hitting powers. Due to the long daze and stealth, they can land 45K Bloodbaths on people. Documented many times in the topic. Cannot be dodged if dazed. Gloaming Cut hits for a lot as well.
- hide&seek to win gameplay with 25K+ Disheartening Strikes, then wait and fool around till your target bleeds to death
- still quite frail once caught outside of stealth
Suggestion:
Tone down the damage and deal with the consistent crits. Everyone will use Perfect Vorpals and this will be a problem for most classes.
Increase their means of survival outside of stealth somewhat.
bloodbath proccing shadowy opportunity is not something other classes are liking much, same problem with shadow of demise. The easiest thing is dont let shadowy opportunity proc multiple times on it like courage breaker...however i feel that after this nerf shadowy opportunity may need love.
dis. strike needs a tone down
shadowy opportunity does not proc with smoke bomb, fix it please. This is clearly a bug.
again, please look at cooldowns, lower them and revert shadow of demise to proc multitarget but always on encounter use.
shadow strike needs faster animation
saboteur: it's impossible to proc any t3 feats in solo playing
Comments
It isn't like saying any of that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you said at all and it isn't requesting anything new or more, only to work exactly like it is described and that is to increase the power on the next attack made by the TR by 100%, not an attack the TR made previously.
It is quite clear that it is intended to be a powerup for the next attack and that is precisely how the exe is explained and designed -- to power up a big attack. Having it fire on an attack you performed 8 seconds ago is obviously not intended. Do you honestly think they intend for the executioner to not use DF, not use bilethorn, not use smokebomb, not use potb, not use lightfoot, not use green dragon glyph, or a multitude of other things in the game or to use these things and then run the very likely chance to not benefit at all from this feat?
Seriously, why would Shadowborn trigger off the DoTs and damage application from an attack made BEFORE Shadowborn was even triggered by entering stealth.
This IS potentially a bug. Good catch.
Maybe they could change it to affect the next encounter used. would make it easier to manage that way
from what i can tell, executioner is too dependent on stealth to benefit from their feats. still, those 1-shots......
sorry to call it like that but if possible i would like a direct answer from you.
More and more times people ( me included....many times) complained about survivability out of stealth and excessive high cooldowns.
I like how you handle the first problem giving some little more deflect on dex allowing to build around that stat, it maybe will not solve the problem but hei it's really something and i appreciate it.
What really bugs me are cooldowns: to have reasonable cooldowns ( example being 16s lashing blade, 11 seconds shadow strike, 14 seconds impossible to catch, 16 second smoke bomb, 20 seconds path of the blade, 10 seconds dazing strike, 10 seconds blitz ) i have to stack recovery at 2400 while still having INT at 19.
This does not allow me to build around critical strike, deflect (dex & cha), power, armor pen because every time i have a slot free it's ALWAYS more usefull ( and damaging ) to stack even more recovery. It's not rare for me to do more dps than other trickster with 10k power when i run with about 5500 ( with stone ).
Have you looked at the problem and found it just right or have you plan to fix this?
agreed. i mean, is there a rogue who doesn't stack recovery? i can't imagine trying to deal with deadly aoes with an itc that has a longer cooldown than 14 seconds. 18 sec lashing is also horrible.
it's kinda the only thing stopping me from respeccing into full deflect on live. recovery and deflect together equals high survivability due to lower cooldowns on itc and dazes. i rather stick with my 14 sec itc and 16 sec lashing than have 4% more deflect >.>.
TR would have good, but not OP damage if everything wouldn't be a 100% CRIT from Stealth.
That's the real problem.
i said that earlier too :P
that is the root of several problems right now. the devaluation of dex due to auto-criticals, attacks that would be a gamble with their crit rates now all hit for their maximum, and even procs from feats being boosted by the auto-criticals.
^it has to go.....
100% crit from stealth is needed unless they want to rework every rogue encounter and daily from the base level, which, really they kinda needed to do that anyway. This is ESPECIALLY true of how TR sits somewhat comfortably in PVE on preview. Rogue damage is only "OP" vs squishies and is offset by melee range, low survivability, and mediocre mobility.
A TR can easily kill someone with low defense and low HP in a couple of seconds, but the reverse is also true as a TR has low defense and low HP. How a given TR is able use stealth, land attacks, and positions themselves will vastly affect their performance. This could lead to the TR in question killing someone without getting hit even once, or them getting wiped out in an instant.
Initially I suggested disabling auto-crit in PVP or a 20% global damage debuff for TR in PVP only. But after fighting some GF's, GWFs, HR's, and DC's in preview I wouldn't stand by that anymore, especially if your looking at the whole TR population rather than just the top 5%.
look the difference between bleed damage and no bleed
Bleed/PotB > Stealth > LB
http://it.tinypic.com/r/2vmu17b/8
Stealth > LB
http://it.tinypic.com/r/2uightw/8
-Concussive Strikes : Opponents No Daze with PoB (Path of the Blade) When Critical happened.
Feedback :
-Smoke Bomb : increase Duration from 1 to 2 per Rank + Area like 'Thorn Ward (Skill of HR)
Anyhow outside of bb it adds about double tge damage for cloud of steel but doesnt seem problematic. However if it is working at 2k unmitigatable damage per hit a BB hirining samepe4son 10x should be 20k damage regardless of what bb does. However i need to test more looking at logs makes my eyes glaze over.
the feat does not apply if there is a continuous damage source in between.
example:
stealth ----> lashing blade ---->35.5k damage done
path of the blade ----> stealth
> lashing blade
> 20k damage done
or
duelist flurry
> bleeds
> stealth
> lashing blade ----> 20k damage done.
basically you dont get the 100% more power if a continuous damage source is doing its job.
proof is that damage of bleeds does not increase.
Indeed, BB is doing 20K+ unmitigated damage with shadowy opportunity and this is the reason everyone is flipping out over it. I noticed this and mentioned it on page 46 and possibly before that. As far as base damage goes BB actually does LESS damage than flurry. Go hit a single mob with a unstealthed flurry including the bleed ticks, and a unstealthed BB and you'll see what I'm talking about. BB is a series of multiple hits over several seconds and there are a lot of ways to soak up that damage, not to mention you bounce around from target to target if more than one is in range. That level of dmg coming from a daily with a long lasting daze prerequisite is IMO not asking for too much. When you consider that a rogue might be using a daily around once per minute compared to every 20 seconds or less with an encounter. Minus the shadowy opportunity damage and a daze/shocking execution combo is going to be better in most situations in PVP....... even before the SE buff coming on friday. I think multiple procs of SO coming from BB needs to be addressed and if base damage is changed then there needs to be more utility with bloodbath. Won't be any skin off my back, it'll just go in the "completely useless" pile of TR encounters and dailies, which is like half of them, and I so loved using it in dragon HE's.
BB isnt the issue, its damage should not be changed. I was simply taking a second look at the feats and geting a more informed look at the current hubabaloo around this. I think that Shadow oportunity, as it interacts with most At-will and Encounters is fine, it adds a bit of extra damage but i dont think is a problem given how short i expect to be in stealth.
But BB shouldnt be doing 20k un-mitegated damage, so how it interacts witht he various feats need to be addressed. this has nothing to do with BB's base damage.
-Skullcracker : http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ljreaq&s=8#.VGPbhns09oM , the feat show diff effect ? the feat show like Sabo`s Feat call 'return to shadow' while i didnt up it. lolx
A) Damage
Yea TR damage is a bit over the top atm but me and a couple other established Top Tier PvPiers have been playing countless amounts of 5v5 on the PTR trying to determine what is and what isnt for the next module and from what I can see, TR's damage is On Par or Where it needs to be in order to contend with the other classes
DC's Healing Counters TR
GWF's Long Range Damage is a good Method of Catching TR's
GF need some more love again (shocking)
CW's Are in a very good spot to counter DC's
SW Needs a bit of Love
HR is still HR, but even HR's damage is completely necessary at the Moment
I will touch upon each class in greater detail during my State of Module 5 PvP address, so far I do believe this may be the most balanced PvP module since M2
TR needs it current damage on the PTR to contend with other classes, should a nerf be recieved it will be unable to face the majority of classes on an even playing field
With that being said...
Bloodbaths Damage is a bit laughable however I feel that we might need it in order to actually need it, otherwise all of our dailies are kinda pathetic - pending SE changes-
although Moderate Nerf Advised maybe 10-15% damage
Shadowy Opprotunity in the Sab Tree is a bit Overkill, although as mentioned before This damage is necessary to contend with other classes
Whisper Knife Disheartening stikre:
I can make this at will deal 97K damage on 1 application of the ability, this needs an immediate nerf up to 50% of its base damage
This was the bleed per tick
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 9074 (8642) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
Anyone who wants me to repeat this can ask
Impossible to catch Still bugs out if any damage/CC is applied in the same frame as the ITC Buff so that it results in a cool down and no activation
Impossible to catch also does not activate if triggered during Soul Forge immunity stage of the Soul forge revival
Shadow Strike: Still bugs out without activation of ability and cycles cooldown if target steps out of range during its affects
Hard to fix that one ^ but maybe improved casting time will help
Dodge rolls - Dodge roll stamina has been properly adjusted, however the distance has remained unchanged
Also, Casting time on dodge roll is way to long, any smart player can use an AoE with a slight time delay after a TR dodge roll, and the TR is 100% unable to activate a dodge in an appropriate amount of time to avoid the ability
i have tested this theory countless times spammming my shift button and hopping to avoid the damage to no success
maybe when the range of the dodge roll is fixed, it will improve results with the dodge
To much cooldown in between dodges I guess you could say
Sabotuer Capstone: I have encountered in multiple occasions where the capstone will proc, but not consume the buff, therefore enabling use of the capstone twice in a row
As sic stated but I can't believe these still haven't been fixed/address
Impossible to catch: power goes on cool down and does not trigger the effect if cc is applied when we hit it. This needs to be looked at
Shadow strike: power goes on cool down and does not trigger effect if target moves out of range or if we get cc'ed. This one happens but is hard to pin down. You can fix it by having the effect trigger sooner but have the animation last the same time.
Our dodge roll. We need to have the ability to roll twice immediately. The delay after rolling is exploitable in pvp by anyone who has half a brain.
When/if you nerf bloodbath, please keep in mind that it is a daily, one of the few left that are useful. So don't nerf it to uselessness (aka emblem). Please use moderation
I have always thought this was one of the coolest abilities we had. First the character laughs and then jumps around like a maniac. Would love to still be able to use it and it be effective
This is really buggy on preview right now. Sometimes it triggers and sometimes not. Adding in dots just seems to confuse things.
I suggest making this proc on "encounter" use. That way it is measurable and better able to time. The executioner path could use it though am thankful of the coming changes.
I would just like to suggest that this at will not count as a million hits in regard to stealth depletion. You can still accomplish goal of taking us out of stealth but just have the 3rd hit remove 15% stealth. This would greatly help sustained dps in dungeons
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Except bloodbath isnt the issue. Its the feats why nerf bloodbath when not every tr will have those feats. However it shoukdnt trigger its effects 10x just once.
it isn't bloodbath that is at fault though. nothing is gonna balance the fact that 20k damage is bypassing all forms of mitigation unless it will only proc shadowy opportunity once. courage breaker is also a multi-hit daily that only procs shadowy opportunity once.
but what do you consider op damage?
1st strike lashing blade + shadow of demise = 60k damage (40k + 20k) with only 90% severity in stealth and can easily ignore around 50% mitigation if you have the executioner armor pen.
1st strike whirlwind of blades = 27k damage with 90% severity which can also ignore all but tenacity probably for executioners. that's instant death to the majority of squishies in the entire game since the only players i have seen with above 30k hp as wizards/hunters were all in hardcore pvp guilds (players i don't run into frequently unless i approach page 120 on leaderboards). if used correctly, this can even nuke 2-5 people on the entire enemy team and it doesn't even require good gear to pull it off. if anyone does survive it, you still remain in stealth for a finishing lashing blade.
^might be 1-shot tactics, but rogues are assassins in the 1st place
and we already have the ultimate defensive daily. it's called courage breaker and it's 10 seconds of 90% weaken/slow which practically makes our target a sitting duck until it wears off. it even works on bosses. nothing is gonna beat that....ever
Good question.
There isn't a really set value, but IMO it may be loosely defined as:
"An amount of damage/ill-effect that is powerful enough to determine the outcome of the fight by itself, with no realistic vision/chance of the victim inflicted with it recovering from it, or managing oneself better to turn the odds"
Or, alternately, it might also be defined as;
"An amount of damage/ill-effect that is so powerful, as to make null & void the entire process of combat that has transpired thus far, and straightly determining the results of combat regardless of who fought better and who fought worse."
If you've seen my video against Papa the GWF, you'd understand that the entire fight was generally going toward my direction, with me constantly gaining the upperhand and dominating the fight without letting go of the combat initiative, and basically dictating the fight to my own terms as I fought the way I wanted to... but then, within a few seconds, **BAM!!** Ferocious Reaction + Intimidation, and I'm suddenly declared the loser. Stuff like this, I'd consider OP.
Ofcourse, it probably needs to take into account the individual classes and how they fight, rather than be decided based on just the numbers, but I'd say any singular power/attack/combo that becomes practically a Deus ex Machina of combat -- the ultimate determiner -- so powerful as to ignore whatever happened along the way, and just decide who wins (or is going to win), would be viewed as OP.
It doesn't matter if one has dominated the fight the entire time, clearly showing signs of better skill -- if the Sab has full AP and just one moment to land a Shadow Strike from stealth, then the winner is almost as if predetermined. Compared to the risk/rewards of the Sab finding that moment to initiate the attack, for the other guy it's not enough that he's played much better along the way. He also has to be perfect to the very end to not allow even a second of such opportunity to the Sab, or otherwise the game's instantly decided.
I consider powers/damage that allow these situations to happen, as "OP".
First of all, the "average standard" of HP pool has moved onto over 30k after mod3, presumably around 32~33k at the least to be considered "average levels" for PvP. People who still have only 22k ~ 25k HP (usually 11~12k GS) are either relatively fresh lv60s, or people who are not really built for PvP. I've recently raised a HR to lv60 (with the purpose of making a viable PvP build/tactic out of Archery
In this aspect, in the same GS/power range, only the Executioner First-Strike LB may considered "OP" levels, although a lot of it is offset by the fact that such build/tactics with an Executioner basically remains a fragile glass cannon which fires only once per round. All the rest of the methods hit hard no doubt, but not so hard as to determine the entire fight.
Rogues are rogues, not assassins. Assassins and their archetypes are only a small, factional part of what the rogue is.
That's why I said "creative thinking", remember?
Why suppose that a new utility-based Daily has to be fired off like CB? From the top of my head I can think of these variations which would be (at least for me) 100 times more interesting, cool, and useful to use than an automatic "I-WIN" button:
■ Bloodbath as a special debuff/burst
- melee, 25% AP, 10s cooldown
- utilitarian daily with small~moderate damage
- leaves a "Bloodmark" on the target for 15s, "Bloodmark" dazes for 2s on initial deployment
- "Bloodmark" increase damage of your at-wills on the target by 5%, slows target movement by 5%
- max 4 stacks
■ Bloodbath replaced with special self-buff
- buff, 50% AP, 45s cooldown, lasts for 8s
- deflection chance +20%
- deflection severity by +15%
- movement speed by +20%
- attack speed by +20%
- CC resistance by +50%
■ Bloodbath, special debuff/attack focused on the "blood" concept
- 100% AP, melee
- target will suffer low damage, constantly bleeding 2% of HP lost every 2s for a total of 20s
- each time the target bleeds, the target loses 2% of its movement speed (stacks)
- each time the target bleeds, healing effect on the target is reduced by 2% (stacks)
- each bleed has a 5% chance to cause dizziness, causing a 1.0s daze
- with the final bleed, target faints due to massive loss of blood -- proned for 3s
etc etc..
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
TR is almost in a great place now. There are only a few aspects that should be looked at, not necessarily nerfed, but maybe modify in utility.
- 100% Crit unavoidable huge hitting powers. Due to the long daze and stealth, they can land 45K Bloodbaths on people. Documented many times in the topic. Cannot be dodged if dazed. Gloaming Cut hits for a lot as well.
- hide&seek to win gameplay with 25K+ Disheartening Strikes, then wait and fool around till your target bleeds to death
- still quite frail once caught outside of stealth
Suggestion:
Tone down the damage and deal with the consistent crits. Everyone will use Perfect Vorpals and this will be a problem for most classes.
Increase their means of survival outside of stealth somewhat.
bloodbath proccing shadowy opportunity is not something other classes are liking much, same problem with shadow of demise. The easiest thing is dont let shadowy opportunity proc multiple times on it like courage breaker...however i feel that after this nerf shadowy opportunity may need love.
dis. strike needs a tone down
shadowy opportunity does not proc with smoke bomb, fix it please. This is clearly a bug.
again, please look at cooldowns, lower them and revert shadow of demise to proc multitarget but always on encounter use.
shadow strike needs faster animation
saboteur: it's impossible to proc any t3 feats in solo playing