I'd like to remind you that there's another spectrum in this game other than PvP. It's called PvE. And PvE is where TR still perform poorly (better than before rework but still poorly compared to other dps oriented classes).
wait i got that, we all know it but you did the greater cheese scenario ever !
lurker assault with first strike and dagger threat? come on man! even shadow strike would kill him xD
wait i got that, we all know it but you did the greater cheese scenario ever !
lurker assault with first strike and dagger threat? come on man! even shadow strike would kill him xD
Even without First Strike, it deals over 3k per tick. Without Lurker's and First Strike it settles in little over 3k, give or take a few hundred. 11 ticks, and that's 33k from 1 at-will. With the announced new Executioner changes (well, technically it's "OLD" Exec, since they're reverting back to first preview patch...), you can add around 8~12k more damage proc from Shadow of Demise.
Since its also an at-will, you can have DHS applied, and then if you see an opportunity, may land a stealthed LB on TOP of an already incoming +30k damage.
Again, since its an at-will, you can have that level of damage dealt to at maximum maybe 3 targets in the area. So, within a span of 15 seconds you will do around +40k damage to 1 enemy, and then around +30k to 2 others. In a matter of 15 seconds you deal over 100k damage total to 3 individual targets.
I think I'm probably be gonna be finishing off that Triple Kill thing finally, and pretty easily at that.
IMO there are 3 ways to deal with this:
(1) tone down the damage to somewhere between first implementation and current
(2) leave the damage as it is, and then shorten the duration to old standards -- maybe 3 ticks for 3 seconds
(3) give 'squishy' classes DoT droppers so it may be used maybe once every 8 seconds or so
Or, alternately, they can just leave it as it is and make me and my fellow Whisperknives the ultimate PuG slaughter tools of PvP, and then receive a huge, excessive nerf-bat in a month or two of Tiamat release.
I think I'll be able to make +30 kills per match now.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
...
Again, since its an at-will, you can have that level of damage dealt to at maximum maybe 3 targets in the area. So, within a span of 15 seconds you will do around +40k damage to 1 enemy, and then around +30k to 2 others. In a matter of 15 seconds you deal over 100k damage total to 3 individual targets.
...
And in PvE, every other class and their pet will have done twice as much in half the time or less. The separation or adjustment needs to be on the PvP side, and not the PvE side (or both adjusted but not adjusted the same).
The TR cannot continue to have it's PvE performance hindered to a level of single target fairness in PvP, nor can the PvP TR be boosted to the level necessary to bring balance to the PvE TR.
No he is right, you can do the whole thing with every path. D.strike do not proc shadowy opportunity but will proc shadow of demise [exe]. With enough int and without dropping encounters every one can perma thanks god. We cant survive otherwise, you know people 1shotting around
Well I was thinking of an MI Scoundrel in particular.
Thinking Dstrike is going live in its current form (or will stay that way long) is crazy. It hits like most classes dailies and you can make it crit any time you want.
Same with Bloodbath. The mechanic is obviously not WaI.
Even if this stuff goes live is going to get nerfed within days. Everyone knows it, so why try to make BS arguments that this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is ok. So you can dominate PVP for a couple days. Rub your tiny epeens?
Cryptic will make some knee jerk nerfs and they most likely will not be something you like. How about you offer some suggestions to realistically change the paths so they are viable.
Each path should be a different but viable way to play a TR. They should not have to rely on some broken mechanic.
As a mainly PVE EXE TR player, I think the TR needs a huge buff to be on par with the other classes in terms of damage, especially on single-target dps.
The TR has one job, which is to burn the boss, and we're doing it badly. I don't really care about AOE damage at all; I would rather put all my damage on a boss than running around throwing smoke bombs all over, its not my job to control, nor it is to AOE.
Right now on my 14K GWF, I can dish out more dps per single target way more than my 14K TR. (I crescendo an avg of 90K, which is way far than any number i've seen on my TR)
This translates into bad gear scaling for the TR into the higher GS range. So as far as PVE goes, the TR needs a huge buff IMO.
However, I can see that such change will greatly affect the fragile balance of the PVP, so my suggestion is to separate the PVP and PVE in terms of encouter damage & behaviour and feats; you probably don't have to dodge massive AOE boss attack in a pvp match.
Buff the PVE TR in the way you guys see fit, and then construct a global pvp modifer to change the damage, encounters and feats when entering PVP ground.
This modifier should also make it easier to make future pvp balances if needed.
Any PVP build should work excellently in PVE, but not vise versa, so this wouldn't hurt the PVPers out there, and will please the rest of the population.
As far as the changes are going, I think you guys are heading in the right direction.
The path he is talking about has zero problems in doing the same.
depends. nothing i listed actually benefits permas since they practically don't get hit enough to worry and the new gear already gives them 100% immunity to stealth damage (except from bile?). personally, i feel the perma path shouldn't have damage bonuses but that is just me (they already have the easiest time of maintaining 100% critical and a decent amount of combat advantage damage).
scoundrels and executioners can play the perma game if they want to invest 10 points in sab i guess. otherwise, no.
ps: i feel like that guardian could at least have blocked and waited to retaliate the melee attack known as gloaming cut. i kinda don't think that video is a good example of rogues vs guardians
ps: i feel like that guardian could at least have blocked and waited to retaliate the melee attack known as gloaming cut. i kinda don't think that video is a good example of rogues vs guardians
Both those guys are good players. You need to see the direction where the attack comes from or Block is useless. Also he was CCed almost all the time, and ate huge crit after crit after crit after crit without being able to even hold up guard. The TR didn't even bother to use a daily, cause at wills were enough.
The difference between classes are TOO BIG. Same GF player killed a good CW without losing any HP with a 30K+ anvil - easy mode enabled. Yet when he faced the TR, he lost without any chance of retaliation.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2014
Just a little note that I see the vs. TR video was using a defensive spec (protector) but the vs. CW was using an offensive spec (conqueror).
For what it's worth. Mostly just to point out that the build used in the TR video is meant for survival and does illustrate that it didn't hold up so well to the WiSco, but it probably wouldn't kill easily against other classes either.
Just a little note that I see the vs. TR video was using a defensive spec (protector) but the vs. CW was using an offensive spec (conqueror).
For what it's worth. Mostly just to point out that the build used in the TR video is meant for survival and does illustrate that it didn't hold up so well to the WiSco, but it probably wouldn't kill easily against other classes either.
thought that was a sab build since he kept proccing shadowy opportunity. he shouldn't be able to reach our daze feats if he has a tier 4 sab feat. after looking closer, he just did dazing strike while staying in stealth due to capstone
the ability to stay in stealth and constantly daze......
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
When I first saw the new changes to the TR I was really hoping they were getting rid of perma stealth and ending this problem once and for all. When I saw they were actually making it easier and on top of that loading both gear and feats to almost force players to choose that path it started to bother me. I will not go perma stealth and instead I will play purely for what I find the funnest -- even if the end result is less than optimal.
When I first saw the new changes to the TR I was really hoping they were getting rid of perma stealth and ending this problem once and for all. When I saw they were actually making it easier and on top of that loading both gear and feats to almost force players to choose that path it started to bother me. I will not go perma stealth and instead I will play purely for what I find the funnest -- even if the end result is less than optimal.
Your major problem is that you don't understand simple thing which is-perma stealth is intended and always was. They only said they want to make it harder and that's it.
As far as i'm concerned it always surprise me how people can get overwhelmed by this propaganda anti-TR which was first to destroy dmg, and then successively to achieve success complete-destroy class-to destroy perma stealth.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Your major problem is that you don't understand simple thing which is-perma stealth is intended and always was. They only said they want to make it harder and that's it.
As far as i'm concerned it always surprise me how people can get overwhelmed by this propaganda anti-TR which was first to destroy dmg, and then successively to achieve success complete-destroy class-to destroy perma stealth.
It is that I do not find it challenging or fun. It is effective, yes, but it bores me and seems to bother others enough (those subject to it in PvP) that I find it cheesy and harmful to the health and balancing issues of the game.
I see stealth as a tool in my chest, a powerful tool but not the only tool. I want to be able to use the tool and not be bound by the tool.
Bug
Shocking execution damage is not increased by 240% but even less than 200%. With 3914 power it was dealing dmg of 3021-3639. It was with 23% dmg bonus and +8% of strenght. So it was overall 31% dmg bonus. Now on preview it does 7250-8735. It is supposed to deal on these attributes i mentioned before dmg of 10200+. It is obviously wrong calculated and should be fixed. As is now it is not even 200% more dmg.
One more thing is that it can be dodged which is another bug. As it was said before shocking execution can't be dodged and only respect effect of immunity to damage, as of for example exaltation(in mod 4 at least)
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
This isnt new what do you expect when you combine At-will+daily+feats = just a day to day common damage nothing special about it
other class will drop one daily and your dead no need to wait for DOT finish
Feedback: PVP and PVE this must be addressed separately or else every aspect will be pulled to discord
Feedback: Disheartening At its current state a plain disheart is ok but when coupled with stealth, dailies and right equips and feats it shows awesome damage potential, now the question is it the TR or the person behind the rogue that is OP? In my opinion its the person using the TR due to his creativity and proper setup its not the class itself that is over performing. Its no easy to synergy feats,items,passives and dailies only those who really know the class is able to combine this different bonuses
So I ask you, how's it harder? I want the class to succeed as much as you, but the question remains.
The Sab tree needs a rework.
Well, you can't for example use duelist flurry with glyphs from stealth which is deadly and can kill enemies. Also you can't attack people when you are in stealth.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Shadow of demise should not stack, its too powerful with DoT's and such. It should either not stack or have stack limit, I made my shadow of demise do 50 - 100k 3 times in a row. Thats really strong.
Also, Distracting Knife feat duration still not fixed.
Yea I managed to stack it to 25 stacks at 10k dmg a stack on the 3 target dummies 750k dmg in about 15 seconds. I was thinking this cant be intentional.
Comments
The video you linked is a different path than the one he is talking about.
I'd like to remind you that there's another spectrum in this game other than PvP. It's called PvE. And PvE is where TR still perform poorly (better than before rework but still poorly compared to other dps oriented classes).
The path he is talking about has zero problems in doing the same.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
DHS is totally cool. Doesn't need any nerfs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qba3lkCywc
Not.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
wait i got that, we all know it but you did the greater cheese scenario ever !
lurker assault with first strike and dagger threat? come on man! even shadow strike would kill him xD
Even without First Strike, it deals over 3k per tick. Without Lurker's and First Strike it settles in little over 3k, give or take a few hundred. 11 ticks, and that's 33k from 1 at-will. With the announced new Executioner changes (well, technically it's "OLD" Exec, since they're reverting back to first preview patch...), you can add around 8~12k more damage proc from Shadow of Demise.
Since its also an at-will, you can have DHS applied, and then if you see an opportunity, may land a stealthed LB on TOP of an already incoming +30k damage.
Again, since its an at-will, you can have that level of damage dealt to at maximum maybe 3 targets in the area. So, within a span of 15 seconds you will do around +40k damage to 1 enemy, and then around +30k to 2 others. In a matter of 15 seconds you deal over 100k damage total to 3 individual targets.
I think I'm probably be gonna be finishing off that Triple Kill thing finally, and pretty easily at that.
IMO there are 3 ways to deal with this:
(1) tone down the damage to somewhere between first implementation and current
(2) leave the damage as it is, and then shorten the duration to old standards -- maybe 3 ticks for 3 seconds
(3) give 'squishy' classes DoT droppers so it may be used maybe once every 8 seconds or so
Or, alternately, they can just leave it as it is and make me and my fellow Whisperknives the ultimate PuG slaughter tools of PvP, and then receive a huge, excessive nerf-bat in a month or two of Tiamat release.
I think I'll be able to make +30 kills per match now.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And in PvE, every other class and their pet will have done twice as much in half the time or less. The separation or adjustment needs to be on the PvP side, and not the PvE side (or both adjusted but not adjusted the same).
The TR cannot continue to have it's PvE performance hindered to a level of single target fairness in PvP, nor can the PvP TR be boosted to the level necessary to bring balance to the PvE TR.
Well I was thinking of an MI Scoundrel in particular.
Same with Bloodbath. The mechanic is obviously not WaI.
Even if this stuff goes live is going to get nerfed within days. Everyone knows it, so why try to make BS arguments that this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is ok. So you can dominate PVP for a couple days. Rub your tiny epeens?
Cryptic will make some knee jerk nerfs and they most likely will not be something you like. How about you offer some suggestions to realistically change the paths so they are viable.
Each path should be a different but viable way to play a TR. They should not have to rely on some broken mechanic.
As a mainly PVE EXE TR player, I think the TR needs a huge buff to be on par with the other classes in terms of damage, especially on single-target dps.
The TR has one job, which is to burn the boss, and we're doing it badly. I don't really care about AOE damage at all; I would rather put all my damage on a boss than running around throwing smoke bombs all over, its not my job to control, nor it is to AOE.
Right now on my 14K GWF, I can dish out more dps per single target way more than my 14K TR. (I crescendo an avg of 90K, which is way far than any number i've seen on my TR)
This translates into bad gear scaling for the TR into the higher GS range. So as far as PVE goes, the TR needs a huge buff IMO.
However, I can see that such change will greatly affect the fragile balance of the PVP, so my suggestion is to separate the PVP and PVE in terms of encouter damage & behaviour and feats; you probably don't have to dodge massive AOE boss attack in a pvp match.
Buff the PVE TR in the way you guys see fit, and then construct a global pvp modifer to change the damage, encounters and feats when entering PVP ground.
This modifier should also make it easier to make future pvp balances if needed.
Any PVP build should work excellently in PVE, but not vise versa, so this wouldn't hurt the PVPers out there, and will please the rest of the population.
As far as the changes are going, I think you guys are heading in the right direction.
Thanks you for your hard work.
depends. nothing i listed actually benefits permas since they practically don't get hit enough to worry and the new gear already gives them 100% immunity to stealth damage (except from bile?). personally, i feel the perma path shouldn't have damage bonuses but that is just me (they already have the easiest time of maintaining 100% critical and a decent amount of combat advantage damage).
scoundrels and executioners can play the perma game if they want to invest 10 points in sab i guess. otherwise, no.
ps: i feel like that guardian could at least have blocked and waited to retaliate the melee attack known as gloaming cut. i kinda don't think that video is a good example of rogues vs guardians
Both those guys are good players. You need to see the direction where the attack comes from or Block is useless. Also he was CCed almost all the time, and ate huge crit after crit after crit after crit without being able to even hold up guard. The TR didn't even bother to use a daily, cause at wills were enough.
The difference between classes are TOO BIG. Same GF player killed a good CW without losing any HP with a 30K+ anvil - easy mode enabled. Yet when he faced the TR, he lost without any chance of retaliation.
CW vs GF
TR vs GF
For what it's worth. Mostly just to point out that the build used in the TR video is meant for survival and does illustrate that it didn't hold up so well to the WiSco, but it probably wouldn't kill easily against other classes either.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
thought that was a sab build since he kept proccing shadowy opportunity. he shouldn't be able to reach our daze feats if he has a tier 4 sab feat. after looking closer, he just did dazing strike while staying in stealth due to capstone
the ability to stay in stealth and constantly daze......
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Your major problem is that you don't understand simple thing which is-perma stealth is intended and always was. They only said they want to make it harder and that's it.
As far as i'm concerned it always surprise me how people can get overwhelmed by this propaganda anti-TR which was first to destroy dmg, and then successively to achieve success complete-destroy class-to destroy perma stealth.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
It is that I do not find it challenging or fun. It is effective, yes, but it bores me and seems to bother others enough (those subject to it in PvP) that I find it cheesy and harmful to the health and balancing issues of the game.
I see stealth as a tool in my chest, a powerful tool but not the only tool. I want to be able to use the tool and not be bound by the tool.
Shocking execution damage is not increased by 240% but even less than 200%. With 3914 power it was dealing dmg of 3021-3639. It was with 23% dmg bonus and +8% of strenght. So it was overall 31% dmg bonus. Now on preview it does 7250-8735. It is supposed to deal on these attributes i mentioned before dmg of 10200+. It is obviously wrong calculated and should be fixed. As is now it is not even 200% more dmg.
One more thing is that it can be dodged which is another bug. As it was said before shocking execution can't be dodged and only respect effect of immunity to damage, as of for example exaltation(in mod 4 at least)
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
This isnt new what do you expect when you combine At-will+daily+feats = just a day to day common damage nothing special about it
other class will drop one daily and your dead no need to wait for DOT finish
Feedback: PVP and PVE
this must be addressed separately or else every aspect will be pulled to discord
Feedback: Disheartening
At its current state a plain disheart is ok but when coupled with stealth, dailies and right equips and feats it shows awesome damage potential, now the question is it the TR or the person behind the rogue that is OP? In my opinion its the person using the TR due to his creativity and proper setup its not the class itself that is over performing. Its no easy to synergy feats,items,passives and dailies only those who really know the class is able to combine this different bonuses
Well, you can't for example use duelist flurry with glyphs from stealth which is deadly and can kill enemies. Also you can't attack people when you are in stealth.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Also, Distracting Knife feat duration still not fixed.
I applied for the job but they said I was too dumb...