katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited July 2014
^ I'd like to see stamina regenerate immediately after you stop using sprint, not 2 seconds later. Compare this to TR's stamina regen that starts just after you use dodge.
Sprint: Stamina cost of Sprint reduced by roughly 40%.
This is a welcome change, but won't this make the effect of the "Fast Runner" feat even less noticeable (it's already barely noticeable now with 5 points put into it, it's less than 10 feet difference). Why not bring the feat back up to at least the original 5% per point (I'd say more, 6 or even 7) instead?
Also, as someone already mentioned, regarding "more responsive sprint" the Wicked Strike problem is still present in the current preview build.
Sentinal GWF's have always been insta capped when they used unstoppable..
wrong, most Gwfs hit their tab at roughly 50% determination. the most a senti pre mod3 would get it about 45% dr, add another 25% DR with 50% unstoppable is 75%, its still alot but its not capped.
with this new change to unstoppable it doesnt even matter when you do unstoppable, 50% or 100% unstoppable it wont matter, becuase it gives you exactly the same effective DR. there used to be an actual reason to use your tab at 100% instead of 50%, now there wont be.
Except Sprinting GWFs can't attack. In your scenario, the GWF would Sprint around taking damage and not attacking, to charge his determination so he can attack again? That GWF would be laughed at by all the other GWFs and told to reroll another class.
The DR of a GWF was never an issue when determining who was the "better" tank. The DPS of GWF simply made it better at threat generation, due to the broken threat mechanics. That is supposedly being addressed to ensure GFs maintain threat. I believe the notes mention that Mark automatically places the player at the TOP of the threat list, so DPS wouldn't be an issue unless you have idiots spamming Mark against each other.
The Sprint changes won't really affect PvE as much as it will PvP. With CC effects being nerfed in PvP, Sprint will be vital for GWFs to close and stay on targets so they can actually hit anyone.
I feel that the additional changes to Sprint and Unstoppable are too powerful, especially for PvP, but also diminish the Guardian Fighter's role in PvE.
1. As pointed out earlier in the thread, non-glass cannon Destroyers can easily have 45%+ Damage Resistance. Glass Cannon ones probably around 32%.
2. Sprint has been changed to grant CC Immunity alongside 30% DR. Now it also consumes 40% less Stamina.
What this basically allows is a GWF that sprint until getting sufficient Determination to go Unstoppable. Go Unstoppable without moving from the spot, whatever is fired your way (80% DR cap, especially in group play or with potions). Once Unstoppable wears off, continue sprinting and taking damage to go Unstoppable again. Doing this will allow most any GWF to A. Stay alive and B. Deal a lot of damage with very little effort.
In PvP in particular, this will likely be a new meta, allowing non-Sentinels to do very well, but Sentinels would be even harder to kill than they are now (which is already bordering on ridiculous).
In PvE, those of us who are high-end geared can still just go Unstoppable, stay in 1 spot and swing without ever moving (except to chase a mob), due to Lifesteal even when Unstoppable has gone off.
The thing is that a Guardian Fighter may with the future changes to Guard be more sustainable for taking damage and getting aggro, but if the GWF can take damage almost just as well and get aggro simply by having high damage, there still is little reason to take a Guardian Fighter along unless your group is fairly undergeared.
So my feeling is that Unstoppable at 10-20% is optimal, with 15% DR bonus from Sprint. CC Immunity is fine. Sentinel can boost the DR to the old 25-50%.
No Paragon specialization should be good in both PvE and PvP in my opinion, and the continuous increases of Damage Resistance back to nearly Live levels in addition to the buffs to Sprint are enabling just that. Because let's face it: Other than GWFs under 60 or those newly 60, there actually isn't a noticeable difference between 30% DR or 50% DR in Unstoppable when you are capped to 80% either way. Sprint buffs are just icing on the cake.
thank you for being like the only other person that seems to understand how these changes actually effect a GWF as a class.
in addition: GWF vs CW, in pvp you are reducing CW damage severely, cast times severely, and giving opressors more cc. yet you are giving GWF effectively 100% CC immunity. with the new change to sprint, longer sprint times (+30%dr from sprint +cc immunity), and GWFs will be able to ignore pretty much all stuns, all interrupts, and all prones. yes that seems great from a GWF perspective, but on top of being nearly impossible to kill and being CC immuned the entire fight,its bordering on stupid.
what you can do with unstoppable is revert it back to 10-20% DR, then in both senti and destroyer replicate the feat in the senti tree where it gives x5 DR except in destroyer make it give .5/1/1.5/2/2.5x more DR.
what you can do with unstoppable is revert it back to 10-20% DR, then in both senti and destroyer replicate the feat in the senti tree where it gives x5 DR except in destroyer make it give .5/1/1.5/2/2.5x more DR.
destroyers wont be needing the feat that gives 50% CD reduction to takedown and roar since they are not really good pve encounters anyway so you can replace that with it.
destroyers wont be needing the feat that gives 50% CD reduction to takedown and roar since they are not really good pve encounters anyway so you can replace that with it.
Except you are again moving a vital CORE feature of the class onto an endgame range feat, which people at lvl 60 won't care about, but everyone else still has to play through the game with a gimped tank class that can't tank or DPS until they reach endgame.
If you want to nerf Destroyer specs that badly, just add a DR reduction to the capstone feat. If they want the big Destroyer DPS boost, only then do they also have to take the Unstoppable DR nerf.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
what you can do with unstoppable is revert it back to 10-20% DR, then in both senti and destroyer replicate the feat in the senti tree where it gives x5 DR except in destroyer make it give .5/1/1.5/2/2.5x more DR.
No. Just rework sentinel feats to get the original DR on live and higher. Instead of the 5x.
Instigators will be left out of that. Its too much work and feat ports for the same thing.
the 15%-30% is fine for none sent GWF's. Thats what we need and been asking for through the entire thread.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited July 2014
1) if you take less damage you get less determination, which makes your theory unspeakably dumb
2) you think you're going to have 80% DR in a PVP match, this just shows you've never set foot in the PvP arena
Doesn't this sort of put us back to the old situation of Destroyer encroaching on Sent tanking? I cannot see a reason for me to even consider to choose Sent with the change over Destroyer (granted I lean towards offense over defense by nature, though).
Doesn't this sort of put us back to the old situation of Destroyer encroaching on Sent tanking? I cannot see a reason for me to even consider to choose Sent with the change over Destroyer (granted I lean towards offense over defense by nature, though).
That's more an issue of Sentinel being lackluster comparatively, just like the Instigator line (which no one complains about). The simplest change there, is to just nerf the Destroyer's damage boost so the trade-off between more survivability and DPS is not so heavily weighed in Destroyer's favor. The other approach is to buff the Sentinel line somehow. Maybe a buff to ratio of determination gain from damage taken, slower determination drain during Unstoppable, or Unstoppable granting x% Life Leech?
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's more an issue of Sentinel being lackluster comparatively, just like the Instigator line (which no one complains about). The simplest change there, is to just nerf the Destroyer's damage boost so the trade-off between more survivability and DPS is not so heavily weighed in Destroyer's favor. The other approach is to buff the Sentinel line somehow. Maybe a buff to rate of determination gain from damage taken, slower determination drain during Unstoppable, or Unstoppable granting x% Life Leech?
Slower determination drain sounds like the best idea there.
Pls, Mod, do not delete this post. Im pretty sure, most GWFs thinks like this:
What i cant still understand is why non-GWWF-players are coming here to complain about our class when they have their own respectives classes threads. To those players, i invite them to go to their own class threads and ask there for buffs for their own classes to "counter" GWF's (reflect 200% damage on dodge into attacker only if he/she is GWF, poison and 200% ArP on at-wills, whatever you think will be necessary to counter this class) but stop messing and complaining about a class most you clearly dont know how to play with or against, and, to prove my point, Non-GWF-players, let me ask you a thing: How come all GWF-players here agree on 15-30% DR on unstop but you, non-GWF-players, dont agree with us? How is possible that "GWF is broken" yet, i do not see any of you complaining on HR's Thread about their "Medicine" T3 feat??? That means "Medicine" is not broken???
HR's "Medicine" feat isnt broken. its their profound combatants 4-set bonus that heals 2% hp on every successful deflect (they can get up to 40% deflect chance in combat stance) and it is not effected by healing depression. so they are only receiving 1.1k healing ticks because of this set, and the 4set is being fixed.
i think formula was
dmg taken= base dmg*[100-min[80,(total DR-resitance ignored by opponent)]]/100
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bringitbackMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited July 2014
THE UNSTOPABBLE nerf to damage taken needs to be TONED DOWN
I am talking about PVE now,GWF is melee,he needs to be in the middle to make damage,THE GWF is not a caster,or a ranger hitting from far and not get hit by aoes,The GWF in order to make damage he must stay in RED aoes,with that nerf to unstopabble,the gwf is purely useless in dungeons.
To me it seems you are HAMSTER the GWF class in pve because of how this class works in pvp.Try again.
THE UNSTOPABBLE nerf to damage taken needs to be TONED DOWN
I am talking about PVE now,GWF is melee,he needs to be in the middle to make damage,THE GWF is not a caster,or a ranger hitting from far and not get hit by aoes,The GWF in order to make damage he must stay in RED aoes,with that nerf to unstopabble,the gwf is purely useless in dungeons.
Its 15-30% now which should be fine for most people (can't really test since it isn't on Preview yet and the Queues are down even if it was on Preview).
Hey all, we have a few more changes hopefully hitting this week.
Unstoppable: Now grants 15~30% DR when activated (up from 10~20%).
Sprint: Stamina cost of Sprint reduced by roughly 40%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
so we now have the same unstoppable gwf with 40% less stamina cost with 30% dr more and immunity while sprinting.
Maybe i m stupid but i dont see the balance here.
so we now have the same unstoppable gwf with 40% less stamina cost with 30% dr more and immunity while sprinting.
Maybe i m stupid but i dont see the balance here.
Right? We are going in the wrong direction again! If DPS can survive without a tank, then this whole balance change was stupid! DPS GWF should not have that much mitigation, and 2 immunities?
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Right? We are going in the wrong direction again! If DPS can survive without a tank, then this whole balance change was stupid! DPS GWF should not have that much mitigation, and 2 immunities?
Wrong! How is 25-50% Unstoppable GWF the same as "unstoppable gwf with 40% less stamina cost with 30% (15-30% Good to see you only latched onto the upper limit)dr more and immunity while sprinting."? Answer: It is not. It just means that you will have a GWF running around much more. And don't forget the lack of Prones.
Since I can bet the whine is from non-GWF PvPers, I suggest you test it out on Preview when these changes roll out before you come and whine here. Mods, please feel free to move this post, once we are back on topic. Thanks.
Hey all, we have a few more changes hopefully hitting this week.
Unstoppable: Now grants 15~30% DR when activated (up from 10~20%).
Sprint: Stamina cost of Sprint reduced by roughly 40%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks for the update, Chris. Good to see that the feedback is taken into account for your modifications. Raw Suggestions (untested):
Not sure if sprint DR is necessary (although will need testing), so wondering if this feature can be changed to Deflect chance instead.
Still requesting one prone to be left in PvP- preferrably Takedown prone. Instead increase Takedown cooldown.
We could also use a buff to WMS to compensate for damage loss when we are sprinting away from attacks.
Right? We are going in the wrong direction again! If DPS can survive without a tank, then this whole balance change was stupid! DPS GWF should not have that much mitigation, and 2 immunities?
how is GWF running around a HAMSTER DPS GWF. if a GWF standing and fighting how is getting a immunity in sprinting and dmg resistance affecting.
and isnt ur shift mechanic also provide immunity. so why should GWF dont get immunity but all enjoy it, so much selfish players.
and GWF sprint is used for rushing hos is that better than all class shift mechanic which allow them to mitigate/dodge dmg.
all class have prones but GWF dont have prones now.
if u dont play GWF dont come here and start spouting nonsense. and FYI DR cap is 80% for all purposes , check in DEV tracker. so how much GWF increase there DR in the end they will get 80% DR in the end.( its total DR .)
feedback is for GWF not CW and GF.
we need prones.(atleast 1) or decrease the animation time for IBS. it takes 1 sec to actually strike the player. without IBS not landing in PVP we cant survive in PVP.
I really do not see any point to picking sent now since unstoppable is back to live values. And now a buff to sprint..... this is really getting out of hand there needs to be a distinction this jack of all trades setup for gwfs has to go. I am sorry but having the same unstoppable dr values as live is a backstep, yes I am a different class but when you fight and party with the class enough you get to see their advantages compared to the gf. If you want to do damage it must come at a cost!
And you still have one prone(do not no the name but its there) so no more qq about having zero just cause you spam fls and takedown maybe take a look at other encounters. Also the devs want to stop the prones in pvp because there is always a minimum downtime (0.66 seconds) so there is a reason for the changing of prones to stuns(these can be mitigated by tenacity and other cc mitigation).
I really do not see any point to picking sent now since unstoppable is back to live values. And now a buff to sprint..... this is really getting out of hand there needs to be a distinction this jack of all trades setup for gwfs has to go. I am sorry but having the same unstoppable dr values as live is a backstep, yes I am a different class but when you fight and party with the class enough you get to see their advantages compared to the gf. If you want to do damage it must come at a cost!
a GF cant understand GWF by looking and GWF cant understand GF from looking how 1 plays. so stop ur idiotic comments and go to ur own feed back section.
and if GWF is running how the fk is that a DPS GWF. ffs can some1 teach these idiots that GWF do dmg by standing not running.
Maybe someone that dont play GWF needs to tell how OP the GWF is. The GWFs are protecting their class and exaggerates so they get buffed and still can be OP.
The whole point of balancing GWF was because they could do everything a GF could with ease while DPSing at top tier? Changing Unstoppable for DPS GWF to 10%-20% was a good way to force them to be watchful of their threat and damage incoming. Then you gave then another immunity in Sprint that gives another Boosted DR mitigation?
I do not understand why you boosted Unstoppable again to 15% - 30%? They need to have a weakness Crush? If they want Tankiness they too like the GF can spec for it! This will result in Mod 2 and 3 all over again!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Comments
Also, as someone already mentioned, regarding "more responsive sprint" the Wicked Strike problem is still present in the current preview build.
wrong, most Gwfs hit their tab at roughly 50% determination. the most a senti pre mod3 would get it about 45% dr, add another 25% DR with 50% unstoppable is 75%, its still alot but its not capped.
with this new change to unstoppable it doesnt even matter when you do unstoppable, 50% or 100% unstoppable it wont matter, becuase it gives you exactly the same effective DR. there used to be an actual reason to use your tab at 100% instead of 50%, now there wont be.
Except Sprinting GWFs can't attack. In your scenario, the GWF would Sprint around taking damage and not attacking, to charge his determination so he can attack again? That GWF would be laughed at by all the other GWFs and told to reroll another class.
The DR of a GWF was never an issue when determining who was the "better" tank. The DPS of GWF simply made it better at threat generation, due to the broken threat mechanics. That is supposedly being addressed to ensure GFs maintain threat. I believe the notes mention that Mark automatically places the player at the TOP of the threat list, so DPS wouldn't be an issue unless you have idiots spamming Mark against each other.
The Sprint changes won't really affect PvE as much as it will PvP. With CC effects being nerfed in PvP, Sprint will be vital for GWFs to close and stay on targets so they can actually hit anyone.
thank you for being like the only other person that seems to understand how these changes actually effect a GWF as a class.
in addition: GWF vs CW, in pvp you are reducing CW damage severely, cast times severely, and giving opressors more cc. yet you are giving GWF effectively 100% CC immunity. with the new change to sprint, longer sprint times (+30%dr from sprint +cc immunity), and GWFs will be able to ignore pretty much all stuns, all interrupts, and all prones. yes that seems great from a GWF perspective, but on top of being nearly impossible to kill and being CC immuned the entire fight,its bordering on stupid.
destroyers wont be needing the feat that gives 50% CD reduction to takedown and roar since they are not really good pve encounters anyway so you can replace that with it.
Except you are again moving a vital CORE feature of the class onto an endgame range feat, which people at lvl 60 won't care about, but everyone else still has to play through the game with a gimped tank class that can't tank or DPS until they reach endgame.
If you want to nerf Destroyer specs that badly, just add a DR reduction to the capstone feat. If they want the big Destroyer DPS boost, only then do they also have to take the Unstoppable DR nerf.
No. Just rework sentinel feats to get the original DR on live and higher. Instead of the 5x.
Instigators will be left out of that. Its too much work and feat ports for the same thing.
the 15%-30% is fine for none sent GWF's. Thats what we need and been asking for through the entire thread.
2) you think you're going to have 80% DR in a PVP match, this just shows you've never set foot in the PvP arena
That's more an issue of Sentinel being lackluster comparatively, just like the Instigator line (which no one complains about). The simplest change there, is to just nerf the Destroyer's damage boost so the trade-off between more survivability and DPS is not so heavily weighed in Destroyer's favor. The other approach is to buff the Sentinel line somehow. Maybe a buff to ratio of determination gain from damage taken, slower determination drain during Unstoppable, or Unstoppable granting x% Life Leech?
Slower determination drain sounds like the best idea there.
HR's "Medicine" feat isnt broken. its their profound combatants 4-set bonus that heals 2% hp on every successful deflect (they can get up to 40% deflect chance in combat stance) and it is not effected by healing depression. so they are only receiving 1.1k healing ticks because of this set, and the 4set is being fixed.
dmg taken= base dmg*[100-min[80,(total DR-resitance ignored by opponent)]]/100
I am talking about PVE now,GWF is melee,he needs to be in the middle to make damage,THE GWF is not a caster,or a ranger hitting from far and not get hit by aoes,The GWF in order to make damage he must stay in RED aoes,with that nerf to unstopabble,the gwf is purely useless in dungeons.
To me it seems you are HAMSTER the GWF class in pve because of how this class works in pvp.Try again.
Its 15-30% now which should be fine for most people (can't really test since it isn't on Preview yet and the Queues are down even if it was on Preview).
you give a PARTICULAR change in gwf/swordmaster? no (please, surpriseme).
Real particularization of iv / gwf? (and not a unequal nerf) no.
instigator changes? ((cri-cri)) no
the "defender" job is important now to justify a feedback about the sentinel threat buff? you can surprise me, but for now, no.
so... what is the point here? say thanks because you punched me rather than shoot me?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
so we now have the same unstoppable gwf with 40% less stamina cost with 30% dr more and immunity while sprinting.
Maybe i m stupid but i dont see the balance here.
Right? We are going in the wrong direction again! If DPS can survive without a tank, then this whole balance change was stupid! DPS GWF should not have that much mitigation, and 2 immunities?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Wrong! How is 25-50% Unstoppable GWF the same as "unstoppable gwf with 40% less stamina cost with 30% (15-30% Good to see you only latched onto the upper limit)dr more and immunity while sprinting."? Answer: It is not. It just means that you will have a GWF running around much more. And don't forget the lack of Prones.
Since I can bet the whine is from non-GWF PvPers, I suggest you test it out on Preview when these changes roll out before you come and whine here. Mods, please feel free to move this post, once we are back on topic. Thanks.
Thanks for the update, Chris. Good to see that the feedback is taken into account for your modifications.
Raw Suggestions (untested):
Not sure if sprint DR is necessary (although will need testing), so wondering if this feature can be changed to Deflect chance instead.
Still requesting one prone to be left in PvP- preferrably Takedown prone. Instead increase Takedown cooldown.
We could also use a buff to WMS to compensate for damage loss when we are sprinting away from attacks.
and isnt ur shift mechanic also provide immunity. so why should GWF dont get immunity but all enjoy it, so much selfish players.
and GWF sprint is used for rushing hos is that better than all class shift mechanic which allow them to mitigate/dodge dmg.
all class have prones but GWF dont have prones now.
if u dont play GWF dont come here and start spouting nonsense. and FYI DR cap is 80% for all purposes , check in DEV tracker. so how much GWF increase there DR in the end they will get 80% DR in the end.( its total DR .)
feedback is for GWF not CW and GF.
we need prones.(atleast 1) or decrease the animation time for IBS. it takes 1 sec to actually strike the player.
without IBS not landing in PVP we cant survive in PVP.
And you still have one prone(do not no the name but its there) so no more qq about having zero just cause you spam fls and takedown maybe take a look at other encounters. Also the devs want to stop the prones in pvp because there is always a minimum downtime (0.66 seconds) so there is a reason for the changing of prones to stuns(these can be mitigated by tenacity and other cc mitigation).
and if GWF is running how the fk is that a DPS GWF. ffs can some1 teach these idiots that GWF do dmg by standing not running.
The whole point of balancing GWF was because they could do everything a GF could with ease while DPSing at top tier? Changing Unstoppable for DPS GWF to 10%-20% was a good way to force them to be watchful of their threat and damage incoming. Then you gave then another immunity in Sprint that gives another Boosted DR mitigation?
I do not understand why you boosted Unstoppable again to 15% - 30%? They need to have a weakness Crush? If they want Tankiness they too like the GF can spec for it! This will result in Mod 2 and 3 all over again!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!