Since this thread is for feedback, I posted above but Ive been chewing on these changes more and am hoping that maybe if more people voice theirs this will be looked at.
So here is my feedback:
I very much dislike these changes, and it doesnt have anything to do with a personal power trip. I dont care if GWFs are not "top dogs" - which BTW they are arguable #2 or #3 in PVP.
The biggest reason I am very "let down" with these changes is that now I feel like a GWF is going to turn into a cheese fest. Players are going to focus more on stacking stamina gain, for the ability to run around having immunity and added DR on nodes as a Sent and not even fight. Much like the Perma TR is today. Players will end up doing short "bursts" of sprint, tapping this just to have immunity in between attacks.
Correlating Sprint to DR and Immunity really makes me un-motivated to play this class. Because I dont see how this will be fun at all, only that it will be abused and unfun for many reasons. I very much dislike "cheese" abilities, like a "perma sprint" build or even just cheesing the mechanic.
GWFs were not FAR from being balanced this entire time. Mod 2 brought IV which was honestly a mistake - its ok weve moved on. But then you guys overbuffed Destroyer - without fixing some of the issues. This causes a perception for people to see them as OP. Which they partly are, but not from what people are saying.
Honestly Crush, ALL you needed to do was
1) Destroyers Purpose - chance to gain a stack from ANY attack dropped down to 5-10% (from 25%) - This removes a 40% damage boost for GWFs in PVP since it would no longer be that viable. GWFs would slot weapon master or trample the fallen for damage, but not 40%.
2) Roar stun fixed so it no longer stuns, only interrupts powers in use - most GWFs wont even run roar anymore.
3) Unstoppable Recovery healing depression fix.
4) T1 PVP armor Heal Depression Fixed.
NO damage nerfs needed on abilities since this ONLY hurts other GWF paragons No prones removed. I get the FLS change to stun, and since you can feat this for an extra second this makes sense too and is STILL viable for control but it didnt need a damage nerf....
But takedown does NOT need a damage nerf, nor a prone nerf. This is one of the MOST crucial aspects to playing a GWF. The ability to get ontop of someone and prone them for an IBS hit. I mean IBS is such a long cooldown, and its easy to avoid you HAVE to use it with a prone or it doesnt do much damage. Removing destroyer purpose stacks will cut the damage on IBS alot already! (40%!)
I very much dislike CC immunity on sprint. You want to add some DR, go for it. Although I dont see the purpose in removing DR from unstoppable and adding it to sprint, id rather just see it kept on Unstoppable.
These changes make it VERY lackluster to play a GWF and it saddens me that all my time/effot/farming are going to be wasted since PVP will be all about who can cheese sprint the most, and its not just that, because GWFs NEED sprint in their current form to be viable.
Please consider rolling back alot of these changes as I have addressed the KEY issues above, I will post them AGAIN here below:
Honestly Crush, ALL you needed to do was
1) Destroyers Purpose - chance to gain a stack from ANY attack dropped down to 5-10% (from 25%) - This removes a 40% damage boost for GWFs in PVP since it would no longer be that viable. GWFs would slot weapon master or trample the fallen for damage, but not 40%.
2) Roar stun fixed so it no longer stuns, only interrupts powers in use - most GWFs wont even run roar anymore.
3) Unstoppable Recovery healing depression fix.
4) T1 PVP armor Heal Depression Fixed.
5) FrontLine can keep its "stun" change.
this post is on point, espeically how easy it is to get destroyer's purpose with dots
Ayroux are you sure T1 PvP 4 set power is supposed to be affected by healing depression? Just to say...it's a PvP set with a healing 4 pieces power...what's the point in making the power of a PvP set, reduced if you use it in PvP?...Makes no sense to me.
My feedback:
- Relentless battle fury: add punishing charge to the list of powers. Would help destroyers get more mobility and make Roar the choice for PvE to keep determination up, while making punishing charge a possibile choice to have more mobility in PvP.
- If prone and CC chains are removed (ok for me), Flourish and IBS at least should get way faster animations to be able to land directly. Cause right now they can be dodged easily, and that's the reason why almost no GWF uses Flourish in PvP.
- Move the healing effect of Heroic Duelist set to Profund sets. It's by far the most useful 4 pieces bonus and does not really fit a T1 armor. Heroic Duelist should then get the deflection/ slow down bonus.
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futuunMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Feedback: Destroyer's Purpose
This feat can stack from DoT/weapon damage. Reaching 20 stacks of Destroyer's Purpose with plaguefire enchant lasts 1-2 second.
This is way too little!
It should be fixed in mod 4 - only daily, encounter and at-will powers should give us Destroyer's Purpose stacks.
This feat can stack from DoT/weapon damage. Reaching 20 stacks of Destroyer's Purpose with plaguefire enchant lasts 1-2 second.
This is way too little!
It should be fixed in mod 4 - only daily, encounter and at-will powers should give us Destroyer's Purpose stacks.
Wow I almost lost hope, this is the first sensible suggestion/feedback in the last 3-4 pages. People are going overboard with all sorts of fictional changes to the GWF.
The facts are we are about to eat a serious nerf, so lets man up and take it raw. If Mod 4 proves the GWF changes as too severe Im sure the Devs will do something about it
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
25% chance is the "focused destroyer " and not the destroyer porpose . the bonus is not "40%" and you just need avoid the fight by 3 sec to lose this bonus (historical problem in pve).
now I wonder understand why the tank encounter will give more damage bonus than gwf/destroyer encounter (bf). what happened to the "tank vs dps"? why at less, you can not give a extra "radius" damage bonus? why unstoppable still penalizing the atwill damage if it loose your "tank function"?
Its just shy of 40% damage boost, not 25%. If you dont believe me go to ToB and SS your TT before and after, then take the after and divide it by the before and youll see a numer that looks like 1.39.... on your calculator. That means a 39% dmg boost aka 40%.
I'm a little disappointed to see the feedback focus is on lowering Destroyer damage considering they are already receiving the brunt of the mod 4 Nerfs in the form of lowered DR on Unstoppable. =(
Not everyone wants to pigeon holed into Sentinel just to PvP.
u r both talking about 2 diffrent feats, 1 is destroyer purpose which stacks upto 20 and 1 is destroyer (class feature) which stacks only 3 times , u have to slot this 1 also to get this buff.
u r both talking about 2 diffrent feats, 1 is destroyer purpose which stacks upto 20 and 1 is destroyer (class feature) which stacks only 3 times , u have to slot this 1 also to get this buff.
This.
I AM NOT talking about the capstone. I think that is fine. I am talking about the T4 feat where you slot "destroyer" class feature, and feat it 5/5 points to gain a 25% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack.
This is what causes insane damage - because you combine even just 2 stacks of this + Destoryer Capstone and have near DOUBLE damage.
So removing THIS feature from PVP will not nerf the class in its entirety, but it will remove those CRAZY takedown crits for 12k. Those 12k hits, will be more like 6-7k at full stacks IN unstoppable.
While its not a MAJOR issue, this is what is causing the massive damage spikes.
I FIRMLY believe they need to un-nerf the class. The change to Roar/Unstoppable Recovery will already nerf the tankiness ALOT - trust me. So the biggest issue people were having is the crazy crits we could get, the 17k+ IBS, the 12k takedowns. This was only possible from the Destroyer Class Feature where you gain a ~40% (I think its like 39%) damage boost from this feat.
Remove this and DEstroyers will end up slotting Weapon master (more crit) or trample the fallen (15% more damage) but its only to CONTROLLED targets. So it reduces some of the damage from those random 12k+ takedowns.
Will it still hurt? YOU BETCHA! But itll require more "skill" and "work" to do - even WITH takedown prone.
I am FINE with FLS being a stun, like I said you can feat it so it retains decent control, and wont bypass deflect now, which BTW ALREADY nerfs GWFs "combo" of FLS->Takedown->IBS. Because FLS proned, so now takedown - WONT bypass deflect and WONT benefit from the 40% dmg boost possible from the T4 feat.
Total damage loss, but the GWF (being a fighter... cmon guys...) retiains SOME level of melee control AND the ability to use takedown to set up an IBS. IBS will lose some damage too from this, so that 17k+ Crit will turn back down to 12-14k. So it would NEED to have a way to bypass deflect via prone to be any good.
Right now the solution is to remove the prone but leave the damage, this will only STILL create criers who STILL get hit for 17k+ because they have low deflect and no tenacity. Removing the feat, but giving the prone reduces damage so its a better "average" damage and less of a MASSIVE "range" of damage possibilities.
EDIT: To clarify when I say remove the feat, I mean to reduce the proc chance so low that it doesnt benefit PVPers who attack in short bursts. What need to happen to the feat is give a LOW proc chance of say 5% off ANY attack, it still gives a bonus when attacking 3 things or more, but make the stacks last for maybe 5-6 seconds instead of I think 3... This makes it MORE a PVE feat and much less reliable damage in PVP - which is NEEDED.
I AM NOT talking about the capstone. I think that is fine. I am talking about the T4 feat where you slot "destroyer" class feature, and feat it 5/5 points to gain a 25% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack.
This is what causes insane damage - because you combine even just 2 stacks of this + Destoryer Capstone and have near DOUBLE damage.
So removing THIS feature from PVP will not nerf the class in its entirety, but it will remove those CRAZY takedown crits for 12k. Those 12k hits, will be more like 6-7k at full stacks IN unstoppable.
While its not a MAJOR issue, this is what is causing the massive damage spikes.
I FIRMLY believe they need to un-nerf the class. The change to Roar/Unstoppable Recovery will already nerf the tankiness ALOT - trust me. So the biggest issue people were having is the crazy crits we could get, the 17k+ IBS, the 12k takedowns. This was only possible from the Destroyer Class Feature where you gain a ~40% (I think its like 39%) damage boost from this feat.
Remove this and DEstroyers will end up slotting Weapon master (more crit) or trample the fallen (15% more damage) but its only to CONTROLLED targets. So it reduces some of the damage from those random 12k+ takedowns.
Will it still hurt? YOU BETCHA! But itll require more "skill" and "work" to do - even WITH takedown prone.
I am FINE with FLS being a stun, like I said you can feat it so it retains decent control, and wont bypass deflect now, which BTW ALREADY nerfs GWFs "combo" of FLS->Takedown->IBS. Because FLS proned, so now takedown - WONT bypass deflect and WONT benefit from the 40% dmg boost possible from the T4 feat.
Total damage loss, but the GWF (being a fighter... cmon guys...) retiains SOME level of melee control AND the ability to use takedown to set up an IBS. IBS will lose some damage too from this, so that 17k+ Crit will turn back down to 12-14k. So it would NEED to have a way to bypass deflect via prone to be any good.
Right now the solution is to remove the prone but leave the damage, this will only STILL create criers who STILL get hit for 17k+ because they have low deflect and no tenacity. Removing the feat, but giving the prone reduces damage so its a better "average" damage and less of a MASSIVE "range" of damage possibilities.
EDIT: To clarify when I say remove the feat, I mean to reduce the proc chance so low that it doesnt benefit PVPers who attack in short bursts. What need to happen to the feat is give a LOW proc chance of say 5% off ANY attack, it still gives a bonus when attacking 3 things or more, but make the stacks last for maybe 5-6 seconds instead of I think 3... This makes it MORE a PVE feat and much less reliable damage in PVP - which is NEEDED.
I don't understand the the devs listen to people who don't know what they're talking about but don't listen to this dude
Its just shy of 40% damage boost, not 25%. If you dont believe me go to ToB and SS your TT before and after, then take the after and divide it by the before and youll see a numer that looks like 1.39.... on your calculator. That means a 39% dmg boost aka 40%.
the "focusad destroyer" (which uses the feature class destroyer) is the feet of the "3 stacks" (25% is the chance of accumulating each stack). you are making a mess of name. and the variation is not much higher than the original (m1 and m2 is 29.5... yeah... you loose debuff party for this).
destroyer porpose = 20 stacks / unstoppable.
anyway, does not seem to me that the damage is the problem of gwf in pvp.
imagine that gwf is a video game boss. there are those that are fast, hit hard, but are "meh" resistant, and there are those who hit VERY strong, are resistant, but for lack of shift you need to keep away (not coincidentally this type of monster has stun effect).
iv had the best of both listed (although damage is contingent). the current gwf not have the "close gap", no hits hard - contigent damage -and is not resistant. this is the problem.
seems more democratic if, after this cut in tr/prones, both iv and sm, hit strong.
I must insist: what is the projection for the class? now he is not competitive in pve or pvp.
I AM NOT talking about the capstone. I think that is fine. I am talking about the T4 feat where you slot "destroyer" class feature, and feat it 5/5 points to gain a 25% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack.
This is what causes insane damage - because you combine even just 2 stacks of this + Destoryer Capstone and have near DOUBLE damage.
So removing THIS feature from PVP will not nerf the class in its entirety, but it will remove those CRAZY takedown crits for 12k. Those 12k hits, will be more like 6-7k at full stacks IN unstoppable.
While its not a MAJOR issue, this is what is causing the massive damage spikes.
I FIRMLY believe they need to un-nerf the class. The change to Roar/Unstoppable Recovery will already nerf the tankiness ALOT - trust me. So the biggest issue people were having is the crazy crits we could get, the 17k+ IBS, the 12k takedowns. This was only possible from the Destroyer Class Feature where you gain a ~40% (I think its like 39%) damage boost from this feat.
Remove this and DEstroyers will end up slotting Weapon master (more crit) or trample the fallen (15% more damage) but its only to CONTROLLED targets. So it reduces some of the damage from those random 12k+ takedowns.
Will it still hurt? YOU BETCHA! But itll require more "skill" and "work" to do - even WITH takedown prone.
I am FINE with FLS being a stun, like I said you can feat it so it retains decent control, and wont bypass deflect now, which BTW ALREADY nerfs GWFs "combo" of FLS->Takedown->IBS. Because FLS proned, so now takedown - WONT bypass deflect and WONT benefit from the 40% dmg boost possible from the T4 feat.
Total damage loss, but the GWF (being a fighter... cmon guys...) retiains SOME level of melee control AND the ability to use takedown to set up an IBS. IBS will lose some damage too from this, so that 17k+ Crit will turn back down to 12-14k. So it would NEED to have a way to bypass deflect via prone to be any good.
Right now the solution is to remove the prone but leave the damage, this will only STILL create criers who STILL get hit for 17k+ because they have low deflect and no tenacity. Removing the feat, but giving the prone reduces damage so its a better "average" damage and less of a MASSIVE "range" of damage possibilities.
EDIT: To clarify when I say remove the feat, I mean to reduce the proc chance so low that it doesnt benefit PVPers who attack in short bursts. What need to happen to the feat is give a LOW proc chance of say 5% off ANY attack, it still gives a bonus when attacking 3 things or more, but make the stacks last for maybe 5-6 seconds instead of I think 3... This makes it MORE a PVE feat and much less reliable damage in PVP - which is NEEDED.
the problem is: iv is not gwf. gwf in general need a projection. not iv. the base damage of gwf is not naturally high. the problems created by iv, and this can be seen in any gameplay, is due to inability of the enemy breathing or develop a plan. enemy "x" try run, tr approaches, gwf control, "x" receives damage, tries to escape again, tr approaches again . yes, against this you need nerf the damage. but this is not a gwf (sm or pre-paragon). this is iv. a "new class" in a old class.
try sustain the focused destroyer (3sec) using a gwf without tr.
but the point is: I really do not care for pvp. if it were 10%/25% for pvp/pve, ok. the problem is that they act as if a gwf/sm is op. it is not. sm does not offer any skill that is a big advantage for pve or pvp. you could play without choosing paragon and not make much difference.
at the same time who are "balancing iv" should be balancing sm. this paragon is so outdated that has a class feature that reduces the effects of control against you. why a "dps paragon" (or gwf in general) need this? why this is not change by a good dps class feature?
I tested it right now and i must say you are doing something wrong. Can you make a video with your build, your stats and method used to calculate the "Focused destroyer" buff damage? cause i always get around +22% (max were with AoW set, which gave me around your 40%, but this were due i got "ongslaugh", just due that). I will rec a video about what im doing on this test to compare it with yours... but, into the matter, i am getting around +22% buff damage instead of your 40%.
Give me a few minutes to finish patching and ill post SS before and after.
I tested it right now and i must say you are doing something wrong. Can you make a video with your build, your stats and method used to calculate the "Focused destroyer" buff damage? cause i always get around +22% (max were with AoW set, which gave me around your 40%, but this were due i got "ongslaugh", just due that). I will rec a video about what im doing on this test to compare it with yours... but, into the matter, i am getting around +22% buff damage instead of your 40%.
kinda same here only around 22% dmg buff i dont know where ayroux got 40% from, i heard there was a bug that let u reach that number but it was fixed few weeks ago i think
only focused destroyer buff. 37.5% (up to 29.5 module 1/2).
ps: +/-8800 power/ 26 force (heroic feet bonus). that is a great base damage?
ps: yes. for the module 2, this buff now is only +8% damage. you change 15% debuff for 40% cap bonus+a fake executioner style/fast cooldown of 3 powers (2 nerfed control+ one low buff power).
and that is the super gwf. now: that is much better than the module 1 gwf? (after resistance nerf) i dont know... is ok, only ok.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited July 2014
I wonder if the devs are actually reading your posts guys, I see other feedback threads were the players aren't even complaining about anything and they keep getting buffs, check the HR just got more deflection i.e, the GF got a crazy buff of 50% more power for the party and what did we get for the GWFs? Reduced base damage in a couple of skills, no more prone but stun, threatening rush is stupid now, instigator tree is useless, we haven't received any good news lately.
I wonder if the devs are actually reading your posts guys, I see other feedback threads were the players aren't even complaining about anything and they keep getting buffs, check the HR just got more deflection i.e, the GF got a crazy buff of 50% more power for the party and what did we get for the GWFs? Reduced base damage in a couple of skills, no more prone but stun, threatening rush is stupid now, instigator tree is useless, we haven't received any good news lately.
I talk for sport (or try create a demand). I have the impression that he did not read what I write.
ps:
bf bonus: after all that demagoguery about dps x tanker, either players or devs, this difference seems fair? i said, and the post was deleted, this thread is a joke. but say "the joke is joke" is the problem. sustain a joke, no.
unfortunately the best I can do here is an appeal to the moral sense of those responsible for the game. if exist, this power will be buffed, if not, this post will be deleted by flame mimiimi.
I am getting 37.5% damage boost from the T4 feat. BTW I just noticed - I lost a stack of my "Fire Buff" Which is about 1% Damage... so maybe its 38.5%.... Too lazy to test forsure but its clearly just shy of 40%.
My 40% must have been from triggering Madness 600 power which accounts for the remaining ~3% since I would take the base without attacking, then with GPF I have almost 100% uptime - my bad I was off by 2.5%
So YES. 37.5% damage boost from the T4 feat. I think this needs to be a PVE focused feat IMO is something like this:
- Focused Destroyer: Still grants bonus damage per stack. But what about "Destroyer now has a 50% to gain a stack when attacking 2 or more enemies" ?
Also - the BASE duration of these stacks should be doubled!
This makes it a VERY good PVE feat - which it should be - but reduces the damage potential in PVP alot.
Again, the issues in PVP are:
1) LIVE - the regen from Unstoppable Recovery is HUGE
2) the 8 sec CD Roar with a 2 sec stun THAT BUILDS DETERMINATION
All combined with the HUGE damage spikes from Focused Destroyer - providing 37.5% damage boost to attacks.
You add that to the 50% capstone and again your at INSANE damage.
The solution isnt (for PVP) to reduce tankiness or remove control - a GWF is a FIGHTER, they NEED to control in melee range to be effective and NEED to be able to GET to melee range to be effective!
The solution is to remove SOME of the burst damage that IMO shouldnt be there - via focused destroyer.
Again, with the roar nerf (fix) and FLS no longer Proning, this will require alot more skill involved with the GWF than before. We DONT need Sprint CC immunity or DR, we dont NEED damage nerfs to skills.
1) Fix Roar - DONE.
2) Fix Unstoppable Recovery - DONE.
3) RE-work Focused Destroyer to a PVE ability - NEEDED
4) UN-NERF takedown Prone/Damage - NEEDED
5) Keep FLS as a stun - DONE
6) REMOVE SPRINT DR/CC IMMUNITY - NEEDED
7) If you want to Nerf Unstoppable for Destroyers I posted a creative way of doing this. - Destroyer's Purpose stacks boost damage and decrease Unstoppable's effectiveness by X % (see previous post detailing this out) The idea here is that at MAX stacks (40% damage boost) Unstoppable is 40% LESS effective meaning your at your 15-30% DR (from 25-50%). So for each stack essentially it would reduce Unstoppable by 2% in effectiveness (a multiplier) not a flat decrease. BTW this works SO well because it keeps Unstoppable for INST and SENT across the board and allows a Destroyer GWF to have its tankiness when he doesnt have his damage boosts.
TAKEDONW PRONE IS EVEN MORE IMPERATIVE NOW THAT HRS ARE HAVING MASSIVE DEFLECT!!!!!
Please Crush, consider what good a GWF will be if they have a hard time CATCHING an HR, when they do the HR has 60% deflect chance and its a good shot our IBS at max Dest stacks ETC will deal VERY little damage.
The Prone->IBS setup is whats makes the spec good, it requires TWO encounters to be used together, and often requires you to save your IBS for that prone.
All of these changes - I will NOT be playing my GWF, just saying. I know many others feel the same way (again I dont care about being OP, I case about it being fun)
kinda same here only around 22% dmg buff i dont know where ayroux got 40% from, i heard there was a bug that let u reach that number but it was fixed few weeks ago i think
Its 37.5% damage boost with the feat and class feature at max: 3 stacks of 9% and 3.5% more damage per stack (feat)
- Focused Destroyer: Still grants bonus damage per stack. But what about "Destroyer now has a 50% to gain a stack when attacking 2 or more enemies" ?
historical said: this "25% chance stacks "has the property that do not lose the bonus after the number of enemies down for 1 (cw in party, you dont have chance to hit 2 or more for much time).
again: sustain this bonus in pvp is simple only using iv. YES iv need a nerf (i explain why) gwf/sm no. this need... i dont say a buff, but a personality.
- Focused Destroyer: Still grants bonus damage per stack. But what about "Destroyer now has a 50% to gain a stack when attacking 2 or more enemies" ?
Personally, I would hate if it did that simply because its mostly useless in a boss fight (since you are most likely attacking only the boss, 1 target). So, both of our class features that give direct extra damage for IV (Trample the Fallen and Destroyer) become useless for boss fights.
historical said: this "25% chance stacks "has the property that do not lose the bonus after the number of enemies down for 1 (cw in party, you dont have chance to hit 2 or more for much time).
again: sustain this bonus in pvp is simple only using iv. YES iv need a nerf (i explain why) gwf/sm no. this need... i dont say a buff, but a personality.
Thats a fair point. Plus on Boss fights as well. Im just trying to figure a way to make this a viable option for PVE without making it SO good in PVP.
In PVE IMO the stack duration should increase - or heck - should proc from weapon enchants maybe.
In PVP IMO this shouldnt be THAT viable.
What if its was given only a 5% chance to stack off any hit, but the duration of each stack was boosted to say 10 seconds? Then the Initial feat itself was brought down to 2 enemies (from 3) for a proc.
This gives you ability to keep stacking it in PVE in many fights, but makes it too improbable for PVP.
Also both IV and SM can get this going IF (hopefully) they bring back Prones/control to GWFs. When you Unstoppable+takedown someone or Unstoppable+FLS stun someone you can easily get off many attacks, or times when players have no stamina to dodge left, you can get attacks - to get procs.
In PVE if it lasts 10 seconds, you should be able to build and keep it fairly easily. Only issue would be boss fights when its 1 target and MAYBE you cant get a proc in 10 seconds with only 5% chance. But we all know alot of boss fights include adds as well - to re-proc that.
Also if there are no adds, CWs will be pitiful damage which still makes Destroyers look good. Plus TRs SHOULD be the best solo strikers and CWs should be better solo strikers.....
the simple solution for pve vs pvp, my friend. is create damage buffs based on the difference between your hp and the hp of the enemy. an enemy that has a 5x amount of hp receive 5x more damage (5x is the limit? 2x? 10% by hp amount? that not the point).
the dev said that it is not possible to program, I understand. if he said that is stupidy - and is good say why - i will understand... maybe scream a little. but he NEVER answered any of my ideas.
why is so hard use a solution given by a player base? yes, I will scream for the world is that idea is mine (uhul; iam still poor). but what's the point? you solve a historical problem.
now, after all that dps vs tank, and the flame war in the forum and a nerf in unstoppable, give 40/50% DAMAGE BONUS FOR A GF ENCOUNTER is really outrageous. what you expect me to say? this thread is a joke.
Thats a fair point. Plus on Boss fights as well. Im just trying to figure a way to make this a viable option for PVE without making it SO good in PVP.
In PVE IMO the stack duration should increase - or heck - should proc from weapon enchants maybe.
In PVP IMO this shouldnt be THAT viable.
What if its was given only a 5% chance to stack off any hit, but the duration of each stack was boosted to say 10 seconds? Then the Initial feat itself was brought down to 2 enemies (from 3) for a proc.
This gives you ability to keep stacking it in PVE in many fights, but makes it too improbable for PVP.
Also both IV and SM can get this going IF (hopefully) they bring back Prones/control to GWFs. When you Unstoppable+takedown someone or Unstoppable+FLS stun someone you can easily get off many attacks, or times when players have no stamina to dodge left, you can get attacks - to get procs.
In PVE if it lasts 10 seconds, you should be able to build and keep it fairly easily. Only issue would be boss fights when its 1 target and MAYBE you cant get a proc in 10 seconds with only 5% chance. But we all know alot of boss fights include adds as well - to re-proc that.
Also if there are no adds, CWs will be pitiful damage which still makes Destroyers look good. Plus TRs SHOULD be the best solo strikers and CWs should be better solo strikers.....
I don't know if 10s is enough for lousy 5%. At least you need ~20 hits to proc it. Why not disabling stacking from Weapon enchantment? That would be fair and would let 15% with 10s+ seem proc enough in PvE.
Not all Destroyer run Damage Weapon enchantment(the ones with huge crit chance).
But what most doesn't seem to check is, that the destroyer only get minor buffs. Yes +10.5% for Destroyer stacks. +40% for Capstone. But all forget, that the bugfix of DG reduce the damage for the most GWF(aren't you Q.Q ayroux about that before?) with about ~25%+?
40% seem high as compensate, but this is only up to the base 0.75 damage factor we had after DG fix.
0.75*1.4=1.05! 5% more as before.
With Destroyer it's about ~12.9%.
But that's not all! The SotS from Instigator was reduced in -%DR too. The ones, that focus on damage take this feat too.
So the above 12.9% more damage is eaten up with this too. So only a very minor buff was left after this in the whole Destroyer GWF path. And the roar+takedown +%damage on top is only a bit minor buff again in the total gameplaywise of Destroyer. More focused on PvP as PvE.
But I support ayroux idea about the penalty in Destroyer capstone for %DR in unstoppable. This let the little GWF the 25-50% unstoppable while the Destroyer know what happen if the get in the 'berzerkermod'. Less defence, but more damage as the other capstones. I really want to know if it's really necessary to penalize the instigator too with the 15-30% unstoppable. What they have to much?!
I don't know if 10s is enough for lousy 5%. At least you need ~20 hits to proc it. Why not disabling stacking from Weapon enchantment? That would be fair and would let 15% with 10s+ seem proc enough in PvE.
Not all Destroyer run Damage Weapon enchantment(the ones with huge crit chance).
But I support ayroux idea about the penalty in Destroyer capstone for %DR in unstoppable. This let the little GWF the 25-50% unstoppable while the Destroyer know what happen if the get in the 'berzerkermod'. Less defence, but more damage as the other capstones. I really want to know if it's really necessary to penalize the instigator too with the 15-30% unstoppable. What they have to much?!
I dont think (99% sure here) you can proc it off of weapon enchants. Im pretty sure its only actual hits that can proc the 25% chance to gain it. I could be wrong though.
I dont know about 15% with 10s because thats about every 6-7 hits you can gain a stack (statistically) and you can hit more than 6-7 times every 10 seconds in pvp. Even at 10% 10s, your looking at 10 hits every 10 seconds. When you go Unstoppable your at wills hit near every .5 seconds so within a matter of seconds youll have 1-2 stacks.
Here is the question.... Is the GWF a single target damager or an aoe striker? It seems the warlock and rogue are more single target strikers and the GWF is more of an aoe striker. So to balance it, wouldnt it seem fair to have this be more group oriented?
With CWs getting a massive AOE dmg tone down, even with this feat slotted for 2+ enemies only, while DPS drops SOME, will the GWF still not be good damage for PVE? - I dont know its been a LONG time since I farmed MC 30+ times for my OH.... Plus I dont think anyone knows because of the Q lock on PTR. I am willing to admit GWFs need that damage.
But for PVP one thing is clear to me.
GWFs are a melee fighter/striker. They not only need defensive abilities (Unstoppable) they need CONTROL (prones).
I am MORE than fine with FLS being a stun. That (to me) seems FAIR. But what DOESNT seem fair is takedown having less damage AND no longer prones. This SHOULD be the GWFs main "prone" - most classes have 1. (GFs = Bull Rush / HR = Boar charge / Cw = many etc etc...)
The issue in PVP is the tankiness versus damage comparison from a single target perspective. To solve this, they are trying to take away control and tankiness. But then they give some back with sprint for who knows why.
I would RATHER have them re-work our damage feat (Focused Destroyer) for more AOE PVE DPS - unless there is a way to save this for single target DPS for PVE only - which I dont honestly see...
And yes, I too like the idea of as you gain unstoppable damage stacks, your DR IN unstoppable reduces.
Plus I dont think anyone knows because of the Q lock on PTR.
The queue lock should be off now; it was only off because they needed to do another patch to remove the module 4 skrimish/dungeon from the queue, which it is no longer there. I can't confirm it since I never get into the stuff on preview anyways, but I can queue for it just fine.
i dont know whats the problem is , 1st time i calculate it gave 28% for IBS and 26% for restoring strike , then again i calculated it shows 37.5% buff for both . and also nobody uses destroyer feat in PVP.
Comments
this post is on point, espeically how easy it is to get destroyer's purpose with dots
however, idk about 5-10% haha
My feedback:
- Relentless battle fury: add punishing charge to the list of powers. Would help destroyers get more mobility and make Roar the choice for PvE to keep determination up, while making punishing charge a possibile choice to have more mobility in PvP.
- If prone and CC chains are removed (ok for me), Flourish and IBS at least should get way faster animations to be able to land directly. Cause right now they can be dodged easily, and that's the reason why almost no GWF uses Flourish in PvP.
- Move the healing effect of Heroic Duelist set to Profund sets. It's by far the most useful 4 pieces bonus and does not really fit a T1 armor. Heroic Duelist should then get the deflection/ slow down bonus.
This feat can stack from DoT/weapon damage. Reaching 20 stacks of Destroyer's Purpose with plaguefire enchant lasts 1-2 second.
This is way too little!
It should be fixed in mod 4 - only daily, encounter and at-will powers should give us Destroyer's Purpose stacks.
Wow I almost lost hope, this is the first sensible suggestion/feedback in the last 3-4 pages. People are going overboard with all sorts of fictional changes to the GWF.
The facts are we are about to eat a serious nerf, so lets man up and take it raw. If Mod 4 proves the GWF changes as too severe Im sure the Devs will do something about it
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The issue isnt with Destroyers Purpose (Capstone) its with Focused Destroyer. Ill update my Post. THANKS!
Capstone should stay as is.
Its just shy of 40% damage boost, not 25%. If you dont believe me go to ToB and SS your TT before and after, then take the after and divide it by the before and youll see a numer that looks like 1.39.... on your calculator. That means a 39% dmg boost aka 40%.
Not everyone wants to pigeon holed into Sentinel just to PvP.
This.
I AM NOT talking about the capstone. I think that is fine. I am talking about the T4 feat where you slot "destroyer" class feature, and feat it 5/5 points to gain a 25% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack.
This is what causes insane damage - because you combine even just 2 stacks of this + Destoryer Capstone and have near DOUBLE damage.
So removing THIS feature from PVP will not nerf the class in its entirety, but it will remove those CRAZY takedown crits for 12k. Those 12k hits, will be more like 6-7k at full stacks IN unstoppable.
While its not a MAJOR issue, this is what is causing the massive damage spikes.
I FIRMLY believe they need to un-nerf the class. The change to Roar/Unstoppable Recovery will already nerf the tankiness ALOT - trust me. So the biggest issue people were having is the crazy crits we could get, the 17k+ IBS, the 12k takedowns. This was only possible from the Destroyer Class Feature where you gain a ~40% (I think its like 39%) damage boost from this feat.
Remove this and DEstroyers will end up slotting Weapon master (more crit) or trample the fallen (15% more damage) but its only to CONTROLLED targets. So it reduces some of the damage from those random 12k+ takedowns.
Will it still hurt? YOU BETCHA! But itll require more "skill" and "work" to do - even WITH takedown prone.
I am FINE with FLS being a stun, like I said you can feat it so it retains decent control, and wont bypass deflect now, which BTW ALREADY nerfs GWFs "combo" of FLS->Takedown->IBS. Because FLS proned, so now takedown - WONT bypass deflect and WONT benefit from the 40% dmg boost possible from the T4 feat.
Total damage loss, but the GWF (being a fighter... cmon guys...) retiains SOME level of melee control AND the ability to use takedown to set up an IBS. IBS will lose some damage too from this, so that 17k+ Crit will turn back down to 12-14k. So it would NEED to have a way to bypass deflect via prone to be any good.
Right now the solution is to remove the prone but leave the damage, this will only STILL create criers who STILL get hit for 17k+ because they have low deflect and no tenacity. Removing the feat, but giving the prone reduces damage so its a better "average" damage and less of a MASSIVE "range" of damage possibilities.
EDIT: To clarify when I say remove the feat, I mean to reduce the proc chance so low that it doesnt benefit PVPers who attack in short bursts. What need to happen to the feat is give a LOW proc chance of say 5% off ANY attack, it still gives a bonus when attacking 3 things or more, but make the stacks last for maybe 5-6 seconds instead of I think 3... This makes it MORE a PVE feat and much less reliable damage in PVP - which is NEEDED.
I don't understand the the devs listen to people who don't know what they're talking about but don't listen to this dude
the "focusad destroyer" (which uses the feature class destroyer) is the feet of the "3 stacks" (25% is the chance of accumulating each stack). you are making a mess of name. and the variation is not much higher than the original (m1 and m2 is 29.5... yeah... you loose debuff party for this).
destroyer porpose = 20 stacks / unstoppable.
anyway, does not seem to me that the damage is the problem of gwf in pvp.
imagine that gwf is a video game boss. there are those that are fast, hit hard, but are "meh" resistant, and there are those who hit VERY strong, are resistant, but for lack of shift you need to keep away (not coincidentally this type of monster has stun effect).
iv had the best of both listed (although damage is contingent). the current gwf not have the "close gap", no hits hard - contigent damage -and is not resistant. this is the problem.
seems more democratic if, after this cut in tr/prones, both iv and sm, hit strong.
I must insist: what is the projection for the class? now he is not competitive in pve or pvp.
the problem is: iv is not gwf. gwf in general need a projection. not iv. the base damage of gwf is not naturally high. the problems created by iv, and this can be seen in any gameplay, is due to inability of the enemy breathing or develop a plan. enemy "x" try run, tr approaches, gwf control, "x" receives damage, tries to escape again, tr approaches again . yes, against this you need nerf the damage. but this is not a gwf (sm or pre-paragon). this is iv. a "new class" in a old class.
try sustain the focused destroyer (3sec) using a gwf without tr.
but the point is: I really do not care for pvp. if it were 10%/25% for pvp/pve, ok. the problem is that they act as if a gwf/sm is op. it is not. sm does not offer any skill that is a big advantage for pve or pvp. you could play without choosing paragon and not make much difference.
at the same time who are "balancing iv" should be balancing sm. this paragon is so outdated that has a class feature that reduces the effects of control against you. why a "dps paragon" (or gwf in general) need this? why this is not change by a good dps class feature?
Give me a few minutes to finish patching and ill post SS before and after.
only focused destroyer buff. 37.5% (up to 29.5 module 1/2).
ps: +/-8800 power/ 26 force (heroic feet bonus). that is a great base damage?
ps: yes. for the module 2, this buff now is only +8% damage. you change 15% debuff for 40% cap bonus+a fake executioner style/fast cooldown of 3 powers (2 nerfed control+ one low buff power).
and that is the super gwf. now: that is much better than the module 1 gwf? (after resistance nerf) i dont know... is ok, only ok.
I talk for sport (or try create a demand). I have the impression that he did not read what I write.
ps:
bf bonus: after all that demagoguery about dps x tanker, either players or devs, this difference seems fair? i said, and the post was deleted, this thread is a joke. but say "the joke is joke" is the problem. sustain a joke, no.
unfortunately the best I can do here is an appeal to the moral sense of those responsible for the game. if exist, this power will be buffed, if not, this post will be deleted by flame mimiimi.
Here is my SS showing zero character buff changes.
http://justpaste.it/g9qv
I am getting 37.5% damage boost from the T4 feat. BTW I just noticed - I lost a stack of my "Fire Buff" Which is about 1% Damage... so maybe its 38.5%.... Too lazy to test forsure but its clearly just shy of 40%.
My 40% must have been from triggering Madness 600 power which accounts for the remaining ~3% since I would take the base without attacking, then with GPF I have almost 100% uptime - my bad I was off by 2.5%
So YES. 37.5% damage boost from the T4 feat. I think this needs to be a PVE focused feat IMO is something like this:
- Focused Destroyer: Still grants bonus damage per stack. But what about "Destroyer now has a 50% to gain a stack when attacking 2 or more enemies" ?
Also - the BASE duration of these stacks should be doubled!
This makes it a VERY good PVE feat - which it should be - but reduces the damage potential in PVP alot.
Again, the issues in PVP are:
1) LIVE - the regen from Unstoppable Recovery is HUGE
2) the 8 sec CD Roar with a 2 sec stun THAT BUILDS DETERMINATION
All combined with the HUGE damage spikes from Focused Destroyer - providing 37.5% damage boost to attacks.
You add that to the 50% capstone and again your at INSANE damage.
The solution isnt (for PVP) to reduce tankiness or remove control - a GWF is a FIGHTER, they NEED to control in melee range to be effective and NEED to be able to GET to melee range to be effective!
The solution is to remove SOME of the burst damage that IMO shouldnt be there - via focused destroyer.
Again, with the roar nerf (fix) and FLS no longer Proning, this will require alot more skill involved with the GWF than before. We DONT need Sprint CC immunity or DR, we dont NEED damage nerfs to skills.
1) Fix Roar - DONE.
2) Fix Unstoppable Recovery - DONE.
3) RE-work Focused Destroyer to a PVE ability - NEEDED
4) UN-NERF takedown Prone/Damage - NEEDED
5) Keep FLS as a stun - DONE
6) REMOVE SPRINT DR/CC IMMUNITY - NEEDED
7) If you want to Nerf Unstoppable for Destroyers I posted a creative way of doing this.
- Destroyer's Purpose stacks boost damage and decrease Unstoppable's effectiveness by X % (see previous post detailing this out) The idea here is that at MAX stacks (40% damage boost) Unstoppable is 40% LESS effective meaning your at your 15-30% DR (from 25-50%). So for each stack essentially it would reduce Unstoppable by 2% in effectiveness (a multiplier) not a flat decrease. BTW this works SO well because it keeps Unstoppable for INST and SENT across the board and allows a Destroyer GWF to have its tankiness when he doesnt have his damage boosts.
TAKEDONW PRONE IS EVEN MORE IMPERATIVE NOW THAT HRS ARE HAVING MASSIVE DEFLECT!!!!!
Please Crush, consider what good a GWF will be if they have a hard time CATCHING an HR, when they do the HR has 60% deflect chance and its a good shot our IBS at max Dest stacks ETC will deal VERY little damage.
The Prone->IBS setup is whats makes the spec good, it requires TWO encounters to be used together, and often requires you to save your IBS for that prone.
All of these changes - I will NOT be playing my GWF, just saying. I know many others feel the same way (again I dont care about being OP, I case about it being fun)
Its 37.5% damage boost with the feat and class feature at max: 3 stacks of 9% and 3.5% more damage per stack (feat)
Proof:
Unbuffed:
3 stacks (without feat) = 26.95%:
3 stacks (with feat) = 37.47%:
Where are you getting this magical number of 22% from? Also, the bug from before was allowing ~42.3% due how the damage bonus being calculated wrong.
historical said: this "25% chance stacks "has the property that do not lose the bonus after the number of enemies down for 1 (cw in party, you dont have chance to hit 2 or more for much time).
again: sustain this bonus in pvp is simple only using iv. YES iv need a nerf (i explain why) gwf/sm no. this need... i dont say a buff, but a personality.
Personally, I would hate if it did that simply because its mostly useless in a boss fight (since you are most likely attacking only the boss, 1 target). So, both of our class features that give direct extra damage for IV (Trample the Fallen and Destroyer) become useless for boss fights.
Thats a fair point. Plus on Boss fights as well. Im just trying to figure a way to make this a viable option for PVE without making it SO good in PVP.
In PVE IMO the stack duration should increase - or heck - should proc from weapon enchants maybe.
In PVP IMO this shouldnt be THAT viable.
What if its was given only a 5% chance to stack off any hit, but the duration of each stack was boosted to say 10 seconds? Then the Initial feat itself was brought down to 2 enemies (from 3) for a proc.
This gives you ability to keep stacking it in PVE in many fights, but makes it too improbable for PVP.
Also both IV and SM can get this going IF (hopefully) they bring back Prones/control to GWFs. When you Unstoppable+takedown someone or Unstoppable+FLS stun someone you can easily get off many attacks, or times when players have no stamina to dodge left, you can get attacks - to get procs.
In PVE if it lasts 10 seconds, you should be able to build and keep it fairly easily. Only issue would be boss fights when its 1 target and MAYBE you cant get a proc in 10 seconds with only 5% chance. But we all know alot of boss fights include adds as well - to re-proc that.
Also if there are no adds, CWs will be pitiful damage which still makes Destroyers look good. Plus TRs SHOULD be the best solo strikers and CWs should be better solo strikers.....
the dev said that it is not possible to program, I understand. if he said that is stupidy - and is good say why - i will understand... maybe scream a little. but he NEVER answered any of my ideas.
why is so hard use a solution given by a player base? yes, I will scream for the world is that idea is mine (uhul; iam still poor). but what's the point? you solve a historical problem.
now, after all that dps vs tank, and the flame war in the forum and a nerf in unstoppable, give 40/50% DAMAGE BONUS FOR A GF ENCOUNTER is really outrageous. what you expect me to say? this thread is a joke.
I don't know if 10s is enough for lousy 5%. At least you need ~20 hits to proc it. Why not disabling stacking from Weapon enchantment? That would be fair and would let 15% with 10s+ seem proc enough in PvE.
Not all Destroyer run Damage Weapon enchantment(the ones with huge crit chance).
But what most doesn't seem to check is, that the destroyer only get minor buffs. Yes +10.5% for Destroyer stacks. +40% for Capstone. But all forget, that the bugfix of DG reduce the damage for the most GWF(aren't you Q.Q ayroux about that before?) with about ~25%+?
40% seem high as compensate, but this is only up to the base 0.75 damage factor we had after DG fix.
0.75*1.4=1.05! 5% more as before.
With Destroyer it's about ~12.9%.
But that's not all! The SotS from Instigator was reduced in -%DR too. The ones, that focus on damage take this feat too.
So the above 12.9% more damage is eaten up with this too. So only a very minor buff was left after this in the whole Destroyer GWF path. And the roar+takedown +%damage on top is only a bit minor buff again in the total gameplaywise of Destroyer. More focused on PvP as PvE.
But I support ayroux idea about the penalty in Destroyer capstone for %DR in unstoppable. This let the little GWF the 25-50% unstoppable while the Destroyer know what happen if the get in the 'berzerkermod'. Less defence, but more damage as the other capstones. I really want to know if it's really necessary to penalize the instigator too with the 15-30% unstoppable. What they have to much?!
I dont think (99% sure here) you can proc it off of weapon enchants. Im pretty sure its only actual hits that can proc the 25% chance to gain it. I could be wrong though.
I dont know about 15% with 10s because thats about every 6-7 hits you can gain a stack (statistically) and you can hit more than 6-7 times every 10 seconds in pvp. Even at 10% 10s, your looking at 10 hits every 10 seconds. When you go Unstoppable your at wills hit near every .5 seconds so within a matter of seconds youll have 1-2 stacks.
Here is the question.... Is the GWF a single target damager or an aoe striker? It seems the warlock and rogue are more single target strikers and the GWF is more of an aoe striker. So to balance it, wouldnt it seem fair to have this be more group oriented?
With CWs getting a massive AOE dmg tone down, even with this feat slotted for 2+ enemies only, while DPS drops SOME, will the GWF still not be good damage for PVE? - I dont know its been a LONG time since I farmed MC 30+ times for my OH.... Plus I dont think anyone knows because of the Q lock on PTR. I am willing to admit GWFs need that damage.
But for PVP one thing is clear to me.
GWFs are a melee fighter/striker. They not only need defensive abilities (Unstoppable) they need CONTROL (prones).
I am MORE than fine with FLS being a stun. That (to me) seems FAIR. But what DOESNT seem fair is takedown having less damage AND no longer prones. This SHOULD be the GWFs main "prone" - most classes have 1. (GFs = Bull Rush / HR = Boar charge / Cw = many etc etc...)
The issue in PVP is the tankiness versus damage comparison from a single target perspective. To solve this, they are trying to take away control and tankiness. But then they give some back with sprint for who knows why.
I would RATHER have them re-work our damage feat (Focused Destroyer) for more AOE PVE DPS - unless there is a way to save this for single target DPS for PVE only - which I dont honestly see...
And yes, I too like the idea of as you gain unstoppable damage stacks, your DR IN unstoppable reduces.
The queue lock should be off now; it was only off because they needed to do another patch to remove the module 4 skrimish/dungeon from the queue, which it is no longer there. I can't confirm it since I never get into the stuff on preview anyways, but I can queue for it just fine.
Edit: Plus, the thread for it is gone.