AYROUX, I totally understand where you are coming from, all your statements are for the PvP section of the game, I get that, but I do not PVP.
I listed my keystrokes in a previous post, nowhere will you see KV, I don't need it to deal massive damage.
All these improvements are geared more towards the PVP aspect of the game, not so much the Pve side.
I am old school, where the player who controlled the mobs (PVE) was the one that did the most damage, damage was the first mob control skill, talking years ago, although even at the present, damage can and does control the mob, that is why the tanks are having such as hard time, and why the GWF's have become the new tank.
Currently a tank tries controlling the mob with "mark" but the other classes damage output is so great it overrides the power of our marks, hence the mobs migrate towards the highest damage dealer, and away from the tank, he looses control because the nukers, rangers and GWF's damage is higher then his mark power. That is why currently the GWF's are the new tank, its the damage they generate that pulls the mobs to them and holds them there.
The simplest solution for that problem would have been to increase the GF's "mark" power, raise the power of mark high enough that the damage from other players would not over ride it. That would not change the GF nor over power him in any way as his marks would not effect other players. It would have strictly enhanced the GF mob control abilities in PVE.
BUT that does not help the PVP crowd.
In any game no one class can have it all, highest damage output AND most defense, there is and will always be a tradeoff. A tank has high def he can stand toe to toe with any foe and absorb the damage while other classes deal the damage. A DD has the highest damage output but is fragile, one hit can take 1/2 a health bar away. So each game tries to balance each class out so they do not make a class too over powered.
The build that I and others discovered, is the best compromise for the GF class( FOR US, NOT FOR EVERYONE), we have def and can take a moderate amount of damage, BUT we also deal a lot of damage out. Can my char deal as much raw damage to a mob as a GWF NO, but because of my skills, "Mark" reduces the mobs defense, and "Tide of Iron" reduces the mobs defense( and the two stack), plus all my skills are feated to increase their damage, my damage output is insane for a GF. But it is not the face smashingly simple as the GWF's. It requires skill to mark the target, leap in, deal the damage and then roll out till the skills perk, sometimes pulling the mob with me due to the damage I have done, yes sometimes even pulling the mobs away from the GWF. As a last resort if I am really taking too much damage I can raise my shield, my shield is my fall back, only used in those times I am taking massive damage.
This build is NOT the protector build. That's what the protector feat tree is there for, those GF's who wish to protect his party. That's why there are three feat trees, so players can spec their toon out and build it accordingly to how they wish to play. Well the conqueror tree is for those players who desire to sacrifice some def for maximum damage output.
Again though this will not help the PVP crowd.
A game designed strictly for PVE never has these problems, a toon in a PVE game can be so overpowered he can one hit any mob or boss in the game and NO ONE will ever complain. It is only with the introduction of PVP that the problems arise, because then one over powered toon is then too much.
PvP has ruined more MMO's then it has helped. Not only do the dev's have to code out all the defense and offense specs for each class versus each mob or boss, but now they have to spec out each class against each class, while still maintaining some sort of balance.
Wow Wow Cowboy . Hold your horses man . You are getting it way too far on this thread . The change we need is simple . Just RA & Mark changes along with the old block . Anything more and we will be nerfed in like 1 week since it will overboost our class ....
I wouldnt worry about this, with Permas and HRs that will dominate PVP for being better node holders than us AND dealing more damage, along with the new warlock coming out... People arent gonna be saying "OMG nerf GF" and you want see 1000 GFs in the top 10 pages of the leaderboards...
I wouldnt worry about this, with Permas and HRs that will dominate PVP for being better node holders than us AND dealing more damage, along with the new warlock coming out... People arent gonna be saying "OMG nerf GF" and you want see 1000 GFs in the top 10 pages of the leaderboards...
LTDR: Its not gonna happen
The new block will kill our class too .It needs to stay as it is on Live
With the experienced AP gain under the new block system, the Tactitian's capstone and feats that give +APs are less viable now. You absolutely don't need any more AP gain as GF and I'd even say it could be scaled back a bit while blocking.
THey better not bring AP gain down while blocking, I would be so sad,I want more AP gain than i do on live and if we get more on preview thats just awesome.
I play gwf but from what ive seen playing on Gf must feel like playing demo version of neverwinter where ure restricted from aggroing effectively and basically fullfilling ur purpose. i mean cmon gwf can kite sp and fh better. Every enchantment apart from vorp is based on weapon dmg which in case of gwf is 1000 and gf ?600? I totally survive everything due to my life steal and dps so why shouldnt gf be able? Instead once his shield is gone he runs away like headless chicken and regen just doesnt work as good in pve i suppose. SO I AM AGAINST THE STAMINA/GUARD meter changes that cryptic wants to implement. and they should throw shield about like captain america.
Lol nice post and i agree, everyone knows that gwf is better than the gf at everything in the whole game, no matter what a gf does a gwf can do it more effectively.
I play gwf but from what ive seen playing on Gf must feel like playing demo version of neverwinter where ure restricted from aggroing effectively and basically fullfilling ur purpose. i mean cmon gwf can kite sp and fh better. Every enchantment apart from vorp is based on weapon dmg which in case of gwf is 1000 and gf ?600? I totally survive everything due to my life steal and dps so why shouldnt gf be able? Instead once his shield is gone he runs away like headless chicken and regen just doesnt work as good in pve i suppose. SO I AM AGAINST THE STAMINA/GUARD meter changes that cryptic wants to implement. and they should throw shield about like captain america.
It is better in so many ways than you know than currently live even with the dr bug atm.
It is better in so many ways than you know than currently live even with the dr bug atm.
It is somewhat unfair to compare the current guard at the live server with what is at the preview server. How about the guard of the live server gets buffed to be on a level playing field with the stamina-guard when it comes to efficiency and then compare the two guard mechanics? A comparison on equal ground seems better to me, since it covers the main issue here, and that is HOW guard works, not simply how well it works.
It is somewhat unfair to compare the current guard at the live server with what is at the preview server. How about the guard of the live server gets buffed to be on a level playing field with the stamina-guard when it comes to efficiency and then compare the two guard mechanics? A comparison on equal ground seems better to me, since it covers the main issue here, and that is HOW guard works, not simply how well it works.
Thing is there was never a difference with guard currently live only if you have more hp which is what it works off as of live. This fixes our guard to be more scalable than it is currently also do not forget that con is getting a 100% bonus on hp (up to 4% instead of 2%) more hp means being alive that much longer. The devs may seem like they are crazy mad scientists (they are really) but this change to stamina while letting some damage through its a stronger version of unstoppable with double the dr or more if built with high defense. So let me ask would like your shield to be gone in seconds from multiple mobs or it lasts a fight and you are not running for your life over and over?
Currently when I am using block it is my o <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> button, with the change it still is but it will last a lot longer which to me is longer immunity time, I do not consider block to stop damage since it breaks like a twig most of the time. So let me ask you can you please try and think of a new playstyle with the improved block? You can avoid most directional attacks and block the aoes? I am by no means telling you how to play it is just that from my perspective most gfs just like to sit behind their shield which to me is really boring especially in pve even pvp(I just run around and knock them out).
Let me say this again this my personal opinion not a directed attack of any kind just trying to inspire some creativity for the coming change so people are not being stubborn to the last minute and then having to learn to play with the new block. And with pvp in mind other classes will be trying to wait out the block just use that time to close the gap and bulls charge em down we can no longer be passive turtles take em by the horns!
Main-Lothor Syralth Guardian Fighter
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Well, my biggest problem with the changes in mod 4 is that the devs are trying to force the trinity back in the game after people have found a way to not play with the trinity. IMO they should have changed the classes in order to allow for more diverse builds and party compositions instead of taking a step backwards and forcing an obsolete design back into the game. Let's face it - there are not enough tanks and healers in the game for this to work properly and that is why the matchmaking is taking forever if you are not playing GF or DC and the upcoming changes will make that even worse.
mfgamesys, that's been my point the whole time, the prot and tac trees are the ones that are broke, why mess with the conq tree it is the only one that "was" working.
I play a conq. GF, but I agree with you here, the protector and tactician tree are the ones that need buffs the most. The reason why they mess with the conq. tree is that this new stamina-guard is so deep reaching that the conq. capstone feat had to be reworked as well. That is among other points why I favor to improve the current guard/block as it is at the live server rather than abolishing it and replacing it with something else. Then there is no need to rework the conq. tree, and we could finally get to help out you protectors and tacticians.
Not sure if your Post is a Troll post of a Rage post but in most games where you are a Tank The Shield is the main defence however I agree to a certain extent that you can better in most cases with a GWF than GF due to Determination / Unstoppable Vrs Guard, However if Guard is fixed in Mod4 hopefully Itll change as it is now still Kinda Bugged
For reference Think of some of the Common MMOS going back that had Tanks
LOTRO - GF/Warden Block ussually the main defence and Parry for Warden OR block
Tera - Lancer - Stand Fast (Possibly the best Block Skill Ever) I Also loved Lancer
Wow - Warrior / Paladin Shield is the main Defence
I'm being polite here when I say what you think is completely up to you, it is a free country. The points I was making are one: too many people do not know how to spec out a tank, and two: too many people expect to hide behind a shield to protect them, then they cry because they cannot do any damage, hence no parties want them. The parties don't care about crowd control, what most parties want is damage dealers, so a boss doesn't take two hours to kill, if the damage dealer can also tank so much the better. Just because you can tank but hit like a school girl isn't gonna cut it, you will still be left out of the parties because you aren't what they are looking for. That's why the parties like having GWF's in their party because he can tank and also pump out insane damage.
This pipe dream some of you are trying to deliver is for PVP, for PVE you think your going to be the Cinderella at the ball and every party is going to lay down the red carpet for you, man you all have a rude awakening coming. In a party limited to 5 players they have no room for someone that hits like they have a wet noodle for a sword, NO matter how well you can control the mob/boss, while there is another type of toon (gwf) that can tank and deal damage he will be invited and you will be left sitting in queue.
You do not need a shield to be a tank, look at the GWF's === reason they have taken our place is not because our shield is broken it is because they out damage us, over riding our weak mark power. DAMAGE is and always will be a form of crowd control, he that does the most damage pulls the mob, been that way ever since MMo's started.
Damage is its own form of crowd control, 4 gwfs can go into any epic dungeon and survive, ohh how can they, they don't have a shield, its because they use their damage as crowd control. They don't have marks, they have damage, if the power of our marks was adjusted to suit the high damage outputs from the gwfs, nukers and rangers none of this would have happened. Except the parties still would not want the current crop of GF's in their party because their damage output is SOOOO LOWW.
As I said a party with low damage dealers takes forever to kill an epic, also relies heavily on the healers, the healer goes down the party goes down. In a high damage party a lot of times a healer isn't even needed, the players can space themselves apart and time their attacks so that basically they pull the boss in circles running towards each one, hence none take major damage but yet they do major damage to the boss. It is a tried and true principle been done for many years.
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Ok here is the problem with our block against the gwf unstoppable... They can use encounters and dailys while we can only use our atwills only but if they spec as sentinal the have simmilar power as us but they have the same dr at most times as our block.
The gwf is ment to be a dps class that can be a subitute tank and thats vice versa for the gf. no classes should be able to do the others role so eaisly or rather anywhere near effectively...
I play a conq. GF, but I agree with you here, the protector and tactician tree are the ones that need buffs the most. The reason why they mess with the conq. tree is that this new stamina-guard is so deep reaching that the conq. capstone feat had to be reworked as well. That is among other points why I favor to improve the current guard/block as it is at the live server rather than abolishing it and replacing it with something else. Then there is no need to rework the conq. tree, and we could finally get to help out you protectors and tacticians.
ctf, I really do not have any problems with the changes to the shield or changing it over to stamina, my main concern is them nuking reckless attacker. As has been stated by many( including you if I am not mistaken) GF's first attack is lunging strike, with the changes outlined we will loose power, a lot of power. With the introduction of mod 3 the power curve was changed so that power only really flatlined close to 10k, up to that point it was one of the best investments for damage output. With the changes to reckless attacker we have to get smacked 5 times to gain 25% damage increase and some crit, that is still less then the current damage we can generate, if you spec your GF out correctly.
A GF with only 4-5k power +25% damage increase is still going to generate less damage then a GF with 10k power.
Its like the devs opened the door in mod3 for the GF's to stack power to be able to deal some damage, now a mth later they are taking it away, but only from the GF's. The GWF's will still be able to stack power 10k+ and still be able to generate insane damage.
So no I am all for the changes to the shield if it will help the majority of GF's, but don't sacrifice the rest of us that use the conq tree to stack power and generate one hxxxava lot of damage. My toon is only 3/4 of the way complete, no enchant over 7, three arti's still only blue, and I am hitting 28k crits if they (the devs) don't nuke reckless once I get him built I know I will give the GWF's a run for their money damage wise, but better because I can mark them to reduce their def and use tide of iron to also reduce their def (which by the way, they stack) and will always be able to fall back to my shield when the sxxt hits the fan. Plus I still have over 4k def, 2.4k A/P, 2.1k crit, 1.2k res, and 1k LS. Very seldom do I have to use a pot and I never raise my shield.
This is my PvE build, if I was a PvP fanatic I would change several skills and feats. But I am not into PvP been in the real thing, don't want or need an imitation.
Feedback: Block Movement Speed So after a decent amount of hours testing block movement speed (both PvE & PvP), I must say the new movement speed is essential, especially since we still take 20% damage through our shields of holes (which I STRONGLY recommend you remove).
Feedback: New Guard System I still get hit for 5k+ during both PvP and PvE (it's much worse in PvE. Especially when blocking dragon breath attacks !!). Ex; On the final boss on MC, I normally save Supremacy of Steel for when the dragon is about to do his lightning breath attack to reflect damage. However, this is no longer a good option for it's EXTREMELY dangerous!!! I STRONGLY recommend you scrap the 20% damage, or the stamina idea all together. The current guard meter works just fine, all it needs is a BUFF. I'm fully aware the guard meter acts as another source of HP, and you fear that will make us OP (which is false because other classes it harder than us; that's the balance). The stamina guard meter was a decent idea in all, but it's NOT gonna get the job done too the extent many players want and NEED. Please reconsider this.
Go test out the 20% damage for yourselves if you don't believe me. Not to mention the new Black Ice damage players have to deal with now.
your getting hit that hard because our shield is currently not takin into account all of our other DR's it's only giving the 80% crush said this should be fixed and soon i hope. and if what fresh hour said above is true they may need to rework it alot if other classes can bring our shield to negative and make it utterly useless then that also needs a fix it should not run on the same DR mechanics as players.
From what I have found via testing. Our block is not where it is going to be.
Block
Block is capped at 80% DR. And since it is DR, things like thornward can reduce it zero, so I am holding my shield and taking full damage. So once that is fixed it will be a beast. I was able to keep near continuous block for 50 seconds of a minute, and that was max feated, max artifacts, max strength, max stamina gain via boons, so that could be good, but it should be increased because with that set up you aren't going to hurt anything. But like I said, currently it can be mitigated to nothing
Capstone
5% damage is rough testing right now, the crit is ok, but 20% damage increase will be a BIG noticeable difference.
Before anyone tests again
Lets let Crush fix the block, if it is meant to be mitigated, then I would then suggest a revert and leaving the capstone where it is. If our block can be mitigated, there are some classes that can reduce it zero, essentially making it useless.
bump^ this is very important our block should not run on the same mechanics as player DR it should be a seperate thing altogether to avoid reduction of the original 80%.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
your getting hit that hard because our shield is currently not takin into account all of our other DR's it's only giving the 80% crush said this should be fixed and soon i hope. and if what fresh hour said above is true they may need to rework it alot if other classes can bring our shield to negative and make it utterly useless then that also needs a fix it should not run on the same DR mechanics as players.
=O!!! Oh that's for clearing that up for me man. Much appreciated. Also, if that's the case. I say they should keep the current guard meter, and just BUFF it -.-...
ctf, I really do not have any problems with the changes to the shield or changing it over to stamina, my main concern is them nuking reckless attacker
This is why gwf sentinals will still be the preferd tanks mod 4 onward.... our dps is super low and the combat avantage we give is not worth it compaired to what a gwf sent can provide on its own damagewise... our tanking job wont return it will be worse mod 4...
This is why gwf sentinals will still be the preferd tanks mod 4 onward.... our dps is super low and the combat avantage we give is not worth it compaired to what a gwf sent can provide on its own damagewise... our tanking job wont return it will be worse mod 4...
If you want more dps (as I do), then you need to support the guard/block mechanism of the live server, and speak out aginst the stamina-guard. I detailed in post #552 of this thread why that is. Really, please read it epclipseingmoon and thesleeper55!
Ayroux, I agree with you for the protectors feat tree and skills, but not for the conq.
Let me explain why:
Try thinking about the conq spec'd players, well a few of us, as rogues;
1. I buff up, hit my target with mark, reduces their def
2. lunging strike, to close the distance
3. immed followed by tide of iron, reduces their def
4. followed by griffons wraith first strike
5. followed by anvil of doom
6. then second griffons wraith which if it is feated does increased damage
7. all this without being hit once
8. then I either move away and let the skills perk or wait til anvil perks if their hp is low enuf to finish them off
With the changes described I would have to wait, run in get hit 5 times for reckless to perk then try to run though the skills before it cools, all this to generate less damage then I am currently capable of generating, the skill changes are more suited to the protector tree, someone who is going to get smacked around while defending his party.
The conqueror spec'd players are squishier then the normal tanks,( we do not use the shield, doing that reduces our +100% power output) for us to get hit 5 times to perk a skill, we could be near death and have to evacuate the area to re pot. Then all we have accomplished is to run in get hit 5 times to perk a skill and because we got hit so hard we have to leave before doing any damage, it ruins the build.
It is burst damage, I must admit extremely high burst damage at that, perhaps not suited to PvP but for epic bosses it works great, for solo grinding it works great. We are not there it protect the group, although because of the high burst damage we do pull aggo from that alone quite a few times.
Bro, how often do you manage to land that rotation ? Im pretty sure any experienced player would either dodge or cc you by the time u hit your first GW, most players will either dodge or cc you even after the LS.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
This is why gwf sentinals will still be the preferd tanks mod 4 onward.... our dps is super low and the combat avantage we give is not worth it compaired to what a gwf sent can provide on its own damagewise... our tanking job wont return it will be worse mod 4...
Epclipse, This is what I am trying to prove, but I am running out of time and cannot afford to just arbitrarily toss in a lot of cash right now to speed finish it. Because of our marks and Tide of iron we can deal very close (OK I do not know exactly how close ) to the same damage against mobs in PvE as the GWF's.
I AM TRYING MY HARDEST GUYS TO PROVE THIS NOT JUST FOR ME BUT FOR ALL OF U.
I know for a fact that right now at 8.5k power my numbers are very near comparable numbered GWF's, because I can nuke the mobs/boss def (makes our damage higher).
Bro, how often do you manage to land that rotation ? Im pretty sure any experienced player would either dodge or cc you by the time u hit your first GW, most players will either dodge or cc you even after the LS.
Emilemo is correct, the hypothesis is against a TR you will not land a Tide of Iron! You can land a bull charge or Lunging strike as they will pluck you down with throwng blades and Bilethorn from afar and come in to land a heavy attack if you allowed you guard to break. If do not however let your guard break you will be equally screwed as you are now probably 50% hp...
I can get a few hits on a good TR, but landing a Tide of iron? No way they never stay close to me long enough, They pop out on the opposite side of the pillar I can get a speedy strike off thats it.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You cannot keep the old Reckless Attacker and have a Stamina Guard, they will not work together well! We will constantly have no bonus power... Crush has said the Stamina Guard is here to stay! They will not change it back, I think the GF in Conq should not be punished into taking damage to deal more damage, he should gain stacks of Reckless Attacker based on his output not his damage taken?
The Conq GF will be way less tankier then the other specs and last thing we want is to start off at a disadvantage, Reckless should stack off the GFs attacks, so we can control it.
Last thing we want is our bonus damage being controlled by the opposition!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Epclipse, This is what I am trying to prove, but I am running out of time and cannot afford to just arbitrarily toss in a lot of cash right now to speed finish it. Because of our marks and Tide of iron we can deal very close (OK I do not know exactly how close ) to the same damage against mobs in PvE as the GWF's.
I AM TRYING MY HARDEST GUYS TO PROVE THIS NOT JUST FOR ME BUT FOR ALL OF U.
I know for a fact that right now at 8.5k power my numbers are very near comparable numbered GWF's, because I can nuke the mobs/boss def (makes our damage higher).
We will not be close to a Sent GWF! just based on At wills we will be doing less... even if you got a tide of iron a mark and full reckless maybe 50% bonus damage? Our at wills hit for 1200-1500 damage + 50% = 1800-2250 damage... That's half of there at wills.
Then look at our encounters and we are still way behind. Our only bonus is the new Enforced Threat! That will boost us in the numbers.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Bro, how often do you manage to land that rotation ? Im pretty sure any experienced player would either dodge or cc you by the time u hit your first GW, most players will either dodge or cc you even after the LS.
I am going to have to put a disclaimer on each of my post I guess.
Emil, Bro I'm not mad at you nor trying to be insulting, but in a lot of my post I have stated I do not PVP (its personnel been there in the real world, don't want to do in my entertainment world)..
My rotations would not work in PVP, I understand that, many of you have explained why.
My build is Pve only, with main emphasis against bosses and their adds. I am trying to prove that a GF because of our skills and feats can be a better tank in PvE than the GWF's. It will then be up to you guys that PvP to take the build and modify it to suit you in the PvP field.
But I am running out of time, I have to earn enough though my leadership mules to finish this build, right now I cannot influx the cash to finish him faster. If I had more time I could prove it.
This is my second GF, I made one on an alt leadership mule acct to experiment with, I learned from my mistakes on that GF and applied all that I learned to my main.
I am almost 100% positive if I can finish him, enchants/artifacts/going 2/2 on armor and a few other tweeks that my damage will be on par with the gwf's (I know a lot are going to laugh at that but guy its the truth). What makes us (GF's) better is our ability to nuke the bosses def, not once but twice (mark=reduces def +tide of iron = reduces def) and they stack.
We will not be close to a Sent GWF! just based on At wills we will be doing less... even if you got a tide of iron a mark and full reckless maybe 50% bonus damage? Our at wills hit for 1200-1500 damage + 50% = 1800-2250 damage... That's half of there at wills.
Then look at our encounters and we are still way behind. Our only bonus is the new Enforced Threat! That will boost us in the numbers.
Rips, my at wills are hitting a lot higher than the numbers you posted, a lot higher.
Do you have GW feated?
Its description is misleading, but if you feat GW its second hit is almost on par with anvil of doom, I`m not making this stuff up I have nothing to gain.
But you have to have the power to back these skills up, the changes to power in mod3 are what make this build work, without the power its a nuked build.
If the class wasn't so close to being nuked I would never share what I have found out, heck I even wrote crush gave him permission to copy my toon and test it out, do you guys think for a moment I would do that if I wasn't trying to help you and the other GF's out.
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
The reason why my of us GF's went conq was because we wanted to have atleast some dps to contribute to the group rather than being a dead weight punchingbag.....
here is what I want to see if these changes have to all stick..
1. Crit chance in the dex ability stats.
2. the dps between a gwf sentinal and a gf conq should be the very simmilar. whats more is the gwf sacrificed dps to go sent and is still better than our tanks dps spec... They can also provide tanking at the same level as us to top it off....
3. Our GF weapons damage output buffed close to GWFs. Right now our weps base damage is even lower than a DC's....
4. Why is plate and scale armor on the same dr scale when plate is ment to be superior?
5. Make special encounters to be used behind block.
The main issue is we can't bring much dps to the table at all.
The reason why my of us GF's went conq was because we wanted to have atleast some dps to contribute to the group rather than being a dead weight punchingbag.....
here is what I want to see if these changes have to all stick..
1. Crit chance in the dex ability stats. Totally agree
2. the dps between a gwf sentinal and a gf conq should be the very simmilar. whats more is the gwf sacrificed dps to go sent and is still better than our tanks dps spec... They can also provide tanking at the same level as us to top it off....
3. Our GF weapons damage output buffed close to GWFs. Right now our weps base damage is even lower than a DC's....Change the weapons stats to a more offensive nature, why does a sword offer defense, when it should offer offense stats A/p, crit, L/s and the weapon/shield combo bonus away from def. Every t2.5 weapon/shield bonus is def, make one or two offensive.
4. Why is plate and scale armor on the same dr scale when plate is ment to be superior? Agreed
5. Make special encounters to be used behind block. I ll conceded this one since I do not use a shield, I know it will help the rest of the gf's Agreed.
The main issue is we can't bring much dps to the table at all.
I agree with what you are saying epclipse, said it all along most GF's hit like a DC.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Rips, my at wills are hitting a lot higher than the numbers you posted, a lot higher.
Do you have GW feated?
Its description is misleading, but if you feat GW its second hit is almost on par with anvil of doom, I`m not making this stuff up I have nothing to gain.
But you have to have the power to back these skills up, the changes to power in mod3 are what make this build work, without the power its a nuked build.
If the class wasn't so close to being nuked I would never share what I have found out, heck I even wrote crush gave him permission to copy my toon and test it out, do you guys think for a moment I would do that if I wasn't trying to help you and the other GF's out.
The damage for at-wills(cleave) seems right to me, at least with my toon on the test shard against bears in IWD(Str, Con, Dex stats are 21, 19, 19, about 4.5k power and about 2k AP). GW with KC does about 12k on a non-crit, Anvil does a little bit more when target is not below 25% health and about 25-26k when it is. Still in dungeons(in mod 3) I've had GWFs with the same quality of gear deal 3 times as much damage as me in the end of the run. I guess my damage will increase a little bit when I get that **** weaponsmithing sword forged but not by a lot.
Comments
I listed my keystrokes in a previous post, nowhere will you see KV, I don't need it to deal massive damage.
All these improvements are geared more towards the PVP aspect of the game, not so much the Pve side.
I am old school, where the player who controlled the mobs (PVE) was the one that did the most damage, damage was the first mob control skill, talking years ago, although even at the present, damage can and does control the mob, that is why the tanks are having such as hard time, and why the GWF's have become the new tank.
Currently a tank tries controlling the mob with "mark" but the other classes damage output is so great it overrides the power of our marks, hence the mobs migrate towards the highest damage dealer, and away from the tank, he looses control because the nukers, rangers and GWF's damage is higher then his mark power. That is why currently the GWF's are the new tank, its the damage they generate that pulls the mobs to them and holds them there.
The simplest solution for that problem would have been to increase the GF's "mark" power, raise the power of mark high enough that the damage from other players would not over ride it. That would not change the GF nor over power him in any way as his marks would not effect other players. It would have strictly enhanced the GF mob control abilities in PVE.
BUT that does not help the PVP crowd.
In any game no one class can have it all, highest damage output AND most defense, there is and will always be a tradeoff. A tank has high def he can stand toe to toe with any foe and absorb the damage while other classes deal the damage. A DD has the highest damage output but is fragile, one hit can take 1/2 a health bar away. So each game tries to balance each class out so they do not make a class too over powered.
The build that I and others discovered, is the best compromise for the GF class( FOR US, NOT FOR EVERYONE), we have def and can take a moderate amount of damage, BUT we also deal a lot of damage out. Can my char deal as much raw damage to a mob as a GWF NO, but because of my skills, "Mark" reduces the mobs defense, and "Tide of Iron" reduces the mobs defense( and the two stack), plus all my skills are feated to increase their damage, my damage output is insane for a GF. But it is not the face smashingly simple as the GWF's. It requires skill to mark the target, leap in, deal the damage and then roll out till the skills perk, sometimes pulling the mob with me due to the damage I have done, yes sometimes even pulling the mobs away from the GWF. As a last resort if I am really taking too much damage I can raise my shield, my shield is my fall back, only used in those times I am taking massive damage.
This build is NOT the protector build. That's what the protector feat tree is there for, those GF's who wish to protect his party. That's why there are three feat trees, so players can spec their toon out and build it accordingly to how they wish to play. Well the conqueror tree is for those players who desire to sacrifice some def for maximum damage output.
Again though this will not help the PVP crowd.
A game designed strictly for PVE never has these problems, a toon in a PVE game can be so overpowered he can one hit any mob or boss in the game and NO ONE will ever complain. It is only with the introduction of PVP that the problems arise, because then one over powered toon is then too much.
PvP has ruined more MMO's then it has helped. Not only do the dev's have to code out all the defense and offense specs for each class versus each mob or boss, but now they have to spec out each class against each class, while still maintaining some sort of balance.
I wouldnt worry about this, with Permas and HRs that will dominate PVP for being better node holders than us AND dealing more damage, along with the new warlock coming out... People arent gonna be saying "OMG nerf GF" and you want see 1000 GFs in the top 10 pages of the leaderboards...
LTDR: Its not gonna happen
The new block will kill our class too .It needs to stay as it is on Live
Lol nice post and i agree, everyone knows that gwf is better than the gf at everything in the whole game, no matter what a gf does a gwf can do it more effectively.
Also i like the captain America thing
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It is better in so many ways than you know than currently live even with the dr bug atm.
It is somewhat unfair to compare the current guard at the live server with what is at the preview server. How about the guard of the live server gets buffed to be on a level playing field with the stamina-guard when it comes to efficiency and then compare the two guard mechanics? A comparison on equal ground seems better to me, since it covers the main issue here, and that is HOW guard works, not simply how well it works.
listen to this guy. I've never seen someone with such a good mastery of their class.
for the old guard/block mechanics and the old reckless attacker feat. just buff this, dont change.
Thing is there was never a difference with guard currently live only if you have more hp which is what it works off as of live. This fixes our guard to be more scalable than it is currently also do not forget that con is getting a 100% bonus on hp (up to 4% instead of 2%) more hp means being alive that much longer. The devs may seem like they are crazy mad scientists (they are really) but this change to stamina while letting some damage through its a stronger version of unstoppable with double the dr or more if built with high defense. So let me ask would like your shield to be gone in seconds from multiple mobs or it lasts a fight and you are not running for your life over and over?
Currently when I am using block it is my o <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> button, with the change it still is but it will last a lot longer which to me is longer immunity time, I do not consider block to stop damage since it breaks like a twig most of the time. So let me ask you can you please try and think of a new playstyle with the improved block? You can avoid most directional attacks and block the aoes? I am by no means telling you how to play it is just that from my perspective most gfs just like to sit behind their shield which to me is really boring especially in pve even pvp(I just run around and knock them out).
Let me say this again this my personal opinion not a directed attack of any kind just trying to inspire some creativity for the coming change so people are not being stubborn to the last minute and then having to learn to play with the new block. And with pvp in mind other classes will be trying to wait out the block just use that time to close the gap and bulls charge em down we can no longer be passive turtles take em by the horns!
I play a conq. GF, but I agree with you here, the protector and tactician tree are the ones that need buffs the most. The reason why they mess with the conq. tree is that this new stamina-guard is so deep reaching that the conq. capstone feat had to be reworked as well. That is among other points why I favor to improve the current guard/block as it is at the live server rather than abolishing it and replacing it with something else. Then there is no need to rework the conq. tree, and we could finally get to help out you protectors and tacticians.
I'm being polite here when I say what you think is completely up to you, it is a free country. The points I was making are one: too many people do not know how to spec out a tank, and two: too many people expect to hide behind a shield to protect them, then they cry because they cannot do any damage, hence no parties want them. The parties don't care about crowd control, what most parties want is damage dealers, so a boss doesn't take two hours to kill, if the damage dealer can also tank so much the better. Just because you can tank but hit like a school girl isn't gonna cut it, you will still be left out of the parties because you aren't what they are looking for. That's why the parties like having GWF's in their party because he can tank and also pump out insane damage.
This pipe dream some of you are trying to deliver is for PVP, for PVE you think your going to be the Cinderella at the ball and every party is going to lay down the red carpet for you, man you all have a rude awakening coming. In a party limited to 5 players they have no room for someone that hits like they have a wet noodle for a sword, NO matter how well you can control the mob/boss, while there is another type of toon (gwf) that can tank and deal damage he will be invited and you will be left sitting in queue.
You do not need a shield to be a tank, look at the GWF's === reason they have taken our place is not because our shield is broken it is because they out damage us, over riding our weak mark power. DAMAGE is and always will be a form of crowd control, he that does the most damage pulls the mob, been that way ever since MMo's started.
Damage is its own form of crowd control, 4 gwfs can go into any epic dungeon and survive, ohh how can they, they don't have a shield, its because they use their damage as crowd control. They don't have marks, they have damage, if the power of our marks was adjusted to suit the high damage outputs from the gwfs, nukers and rangers none of this would have happened. Except the parties still would not want the current crop of GF's in their party because their damage output is SOOOO LOWW.
As I said a party with low damage dealers takes forever to kill an epic, also relies heavily on the healers, the healer goes down the party goes down. In a high damage party a lot of times a healer isn't even needed, the players can space themselves apart and time their attacks so that basically they pull the boss in circles running towards each one, hence none take major damage but yet they do major damage to the boss. It is a tried and true principle been done for many years.
The gwf is ment to be a dps class that can be a subitute tank and thats vice versa for the gf. no classes should be able to do the others role so eaisly or rather anywhere near effectively...
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
ctf, I really do not have any problems with the changes to the shield or changing it over to stamina, my main concern is them nuking reckless attacker. As has been stated by many( including you if I am not mistaken) GF's first attack is lunging strike, with the changes outlined we will loose power, a lot of power. With the introduction of mod 3 the power curve was changed so that power only really flatlined close to 10k, up to that point it was one of the best investments for damage output. With the changes to reckless attacker we have to get smacked 5 times to gain 25% damage increase and some crit, that is still less then the current damage we can generate, if you spec your GF out correctly.
A GF with only 4-5k power +25% damage increase is still going to generate less damage then a GF with 10k power.
Its like the devs opened the door in mod3 for the GF's to stack power to be able to deal some damage, now a mth later they are taking it away, but only from the GF's. The GWF's will still be able to stack power 10k+ and still be able to generate insane damage.
So no I am all for the changes to the shield if it will help the majority of GF's, but don't sacrifice the rest of us that use the conq tree to stack power and generate one hxxxava lot of damage. My toon is only 3/4 of the way complete, no enchant over 7, three arti's still only blue, and I am hitting 28k crits if they (the devs) don't nuke reckless once I get him built I know I will give the GWF's a run for their money damage wise, but better because I can mark them to reduce their def and use tide of iron to also reduce their def (which by the way, they stack) and will always be able to fall back to my shield when the sxxt hits the fan. Plus I still have over 4k def, 2.4k A/P, 2.1k crit, 1.2k res, and 1k LS. Very seldom do I have to use a pot and I never raise my shield.
This is my PvE build, if I was a PvP fanatic I would change several skills and feats. But I am not into PvP been in the real thing, don't want or need an imitation.
your getting hit that hard because our shield is currently not takin into account all of our other DR's it's only giving the 80% crush said this should be fixed and soon i hope. and if what fresh hour said above is true they may need to rework it alot if other classes can bring our shield to negative and make it utterly useless then that also needs a fix it should not run on the same DR mechanics as players.
bump^ this is very important our block should not run on the same mechanics as player DR it should be a seperate thing altogether to avoid reduction of the original 80%.
=O!!! Oh that's for clearing that up for me man. Much appreciated. Also, if that's the case. I say they should keep the current guard meter, and just BUFF it -.-...
This is why gwf sentinals will still be the preferd tanks mod 4 onward.... our dps is super low and the combat avantage we give is not worth it compaired to what a gwf sent can provide on its own damagewise... our tanking job wont return it will be worse mod 4...
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
Bro, how often do you manage to land that rotation ? Im pretty sure any experienced player would either dodge or cc you by the time u hit your first GW, most players will either dodge or cc you even after the LS.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Epclipse, This is what I am trying to prove, but I am running out of time and cannot afford to just arbitrarily toss in a lot of cash right now to speed finish it. Because of our marks and Tide of iron we can deal very close (OK I do not know exactly how close ) to the same damage against mobs in PvE as the GWF's.
I AM TRYING MY HARDEST GUYS TO PROVE THIS NOT JUST FOR ME BUT FOR ALL OF U.
I know for a fact that right now at 8.5k power my numbers are very near comparable numbered GWF's, because I can nuke the mobs/boss def (makes our damage higher).
Emilemo is correct, the hypothesis is against a TR you will not land a Tide of Iron! You can land a bull charge or Lunging strike as they will pluck you down with throwng blades and Bilethorn from afar and come in to land a heavy attack if you allowed you guard to break. If do not however let your guard break you will be equally screwed as you are now probably 50% hp...
I can get a few hits on a good TR, but landing a Tide of iron? No way they never stay close to me long enough, They pop out on the opposite side of the pillar I can get a speedy strike off thats it.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The Conq GF will be way less tankier then the other specs and last thing we want is to start off at a disadvantage, Reckless should stack off the GFs attacks, so we can control it.
Last thing we want is our bonus damage being controlled by the opposition!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
We will not be close to a Sent GWF! just based on At wills we will be doing less... even if you got a tide of iron a mark and full reckless maybe 50% bonus damage? Our at wills hit for 1200-1500 damage + 50% = 1800-2250 damage... That's half of there at wills.
Then look at our encounters and we are still way behind. Our only bonus is the new Enforced Threat! That will boost us in the numbers.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I am going to have to put a disclaimer on each of my post I guess.
Emil, Bro I'm not mad at you nor trying to be insulting, but in a lot of my post I have stated I do not PVP (its personnel been there in the real world, don't want to do in my entertainment world)..
My rotations would not work in PVP, I understand that, many of you have explained why.
My build is Pve only, with main emphasis against bosses and their adds. I am trying to prove that a GF because of our skills and feats can be a better tank in PvE than the GWF's. It will then be up to you guys that PvP to take the build and modify it to suit you in the PvP field.
But I am running out of time, I have to earn enough though my leadership mules to finish this build, right now I cannot influx the cash to finish him faster. If I had more time I could prove it.
This is my second GF, I made one on an alt leadership mule acct to experiment with, I learned from my mistakes on that GF and applied all that I learned to my main.
I am almost 100% positive if I can finish him, enchants/artifacts/going 2/2 on armor and a few other tweeks that my damage will be on par with the gwf's (I know a lot are going to laugh at that but guy its the truth). What makes us (GF's) better is our ability to nuke the bosses def, not once but twice (mark=reduces def +tide of iron = reduces def) and they stack.
Rips, my at wills are hitting a lot higher than the numbers you posted, a lot higher.
Do you have GW feated?
Its description is misleading, but if you feat GW its second hit is almost on par with anvil of doom, I`m not making this stuff up I have nothing to gain.
But you have to have the power to back these skills up, the changes to power in mod3 are what make this build work, without the power its a nuked build.
If the class wasn't so close to being nuked I would never share what I have found out, heck I even wrote crush gave him permission to copy my toon and test it out, do you guys think for a moment I would do that if I wasn't trying to help you and the other GF's out.
here is what I want to see if these changes have to all stick..
1. Crit chance in the dex ability stats.
2. the dps between a gwf sentinal and a gf conq should be the very simmilar. whats more is the gwf sacrificed dps to go sent and is still better than our tanks dps spec... They can also provide tanking at the same level as us to top it off....
3. Our GF weapons damage output buffed close to GWFs. Right now our weps base damage is even lower than a DC's....
4. Why is plate and scale armor on the same dr scale when plate is ment to be superior?
5. Make special encounters to be used behind block.
The main issue is we can't bring much dps to the table at all.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
I agree with what you are saying epclipse, said it all along most GF's hit like a DC.
The damage for at-wills(cleave) seems right to me, at least with my toon on the test shard against bears in IWD(Str, Con, Dex stats are 21, 19, 19, about 4.5k power and about 2k AP). GW with KC does about 12k on a non-crit, Anvil does a little bit more when target is not below 25% health and about 25-26k when it is. Still in dungeons(in mod 3) I've had GWFs with the same quality of gear deal 3 times as much damage as me in the end of the run. I guess my damage will increase a little bit when I get that **** weaponsmithing sword forged but not by a lot.