This is the mentality that is winning here, why would anyone want to block 100% of the time, I thought we were a fighter class, you should not deal damage while hiding behind a shield.
Have any of you tried playing without using your shield, I don't think so, yet everyone camps and insults those of us that do. I didn't need a shield neither did Embracemysword, Ctf4void, Colonelwing and perhaps a few others, we found we can sacrifice the shield to give massive DPS and survive, maybe you all could take a few lessons.
It has been stated those above 5395X2=10790 power will see a slight dps loss, yeah how bout almost 4k in power loss, plus the associated damage that 4k in power will generate. Please do not try and sell me on the idea that crit is going to make up the remaining difference, crit is a non constant variable, it cannot be calculated into a fixed damage formula. Sure sometimes you will hit with more damage, but how often its a variable not fixed. Sure if you could get a GF with close to 50% crit I might agree, but you can't on a GF, its hard enough on a rouge to get that high. SO crit is a low solution variable not ment to be used in any damage based formula.
After these last statements from crush, and especially since I saw him post on the GWF forums he was going to be on there with pewpew to PVP with the other gwf's yesterday, I know whats coming.
SO I will be joining colonelwing and embracemysword and perhaps a few others still on the borderline.
I know someone like ICE will come on here and make a quote like this again:
Q.Q good cya never
I agree we shouldnt have our shield 100% of the time but as for reckless attacker there is things you are forgetting unless you are talking about pve only. Suppose we was fighting a gwf, we cant stand head on, we have to deal dmg and then kite when they are in unstoppable and that requires us to lift our shield to block hits like roar or frontline and during most of the fight our shields will be at half anyway so now even if we get a dmg loss at least its basically constant dmg and crit.
No gf in pvp doesn't use there shield but no one should keep it up either, its about timing and knowing when to use it but its rare to have 100% guard meter when fighting another good player so i like the changes even thought i get a dmg nerf, our shields are better because they last longer, we have more crit, faster move speed while blocking and more hp.
While i appreciate what you are trying to do for us GFs, I am absolutely sure that this will change NOTHING for us. Why? Simple. We are already "controllers" and, with good gear, already able to tank the **** out of every dungeon. We are still not wanted in groups. And we will never be if you don't change your "it's not a DPS class" attitude. The majority of players doesn't give a **** about the purpose of a class. They give a **** about how fast they can faceroll through dungeons. And without every class being able to kick out a hell lot of more DPS than us, noone will want us after the patch.
(ah and by the way: GWFs are still tankier than GFs. Thank you.)
You should try to calm down, but you have a good point, we are a Tank class in a game that doesn't need a Tank class (after a certain GS and Life Steal you don't even need a Cleric) and the only thing that ppl want is DPS in their parties, I hope this will change in the next mod, having harder dungeons and more challenging content unable to do with a lot of CW/GWF and/or DPS classes without a Tank and a Cleric if they are not very good geared (the GS requirement of the dungeons are not even 11K and we have +18K GS players, it's obvius that Tanks and Clerics are not needed by now), but anyway, I'm almost 99% sure it won't be like this .
You should try to calm down, but you have a good point, we are a Tank class in a game that doesn't need a Tank class (after a certain GS and Life Steal you don't even need a Cleric) and the only thing that ppl want is DPS in their parties, I hope this will change in the next mod, having harder dungeons and more challenging content unable to do with a lot of CW/GWF and/or DPS classes without a Tank and a Cleric if they are not very good geared (the GS requirement of the dungeons are not even 11K and we have +18K GS players, it's obvius that Tanks and Clerics are not needed by now), but anyway, I'm almost 90% it won't be like this.
I know everyone wants a dps party to do dungeons faster but gf are more like a team leader class, we are meant to be the tank but that is never gonna happen as long as gwf are around. Our class has some team buff skills but instead of giving us dps we should have way more buff skills and maybe work in a leadership path where certain skills buff allies in all kinds of ways so people want a gf in the party to lead and tank enemies while buffing the whole party. This would also be useful in pvp. The cleric is great in pvp, able to keep the whole tram alive well so a high defended gf will many buffs could help the team a lot too.
Of course this should just be a path choice or something, I wouldn't want the gf to be like the cleric but at least people would want us for dungeons then.
Crixus - PVP GF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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noerqMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited July 2014
Debuffing enemies or buffing the team is like the same. Clerics can debuff enemies. They are still not wanted. Why should we be?
The faceroll-roarspam-statabuse-community of this game demands DPS over everything else. If we can't DPS, we're not wanted. It's as simple as it can be. GF+DPS=wanted. GF-DPS=not wanted.
I know everyone wants a dps party to do dungeons faster but gf are more like a team leader class, we are meant to be the tank but that is never gonna happen as long as gwf are around. Our class has some team buff skills but instead of giving us dps we should have way more buff skills and maybe work in a leadership path where certain skills buff allies in all kinds of ways so people want a gf in the party to lead and tank enemies while buffing the whole party. This would also be useful in pvp. The cleric is great in pvp, able to keep the whole tram alive well so a high defended gf will many buffs could help the team a lot too.
Of course this should just be a path choice or something, I wouldn't want the gf to be like the cleric but at least people would want us for dungeons then.
I aggre with the ^ post, sometimes ppl don't even want a DC (for example for CTA runs ppl only want a 5 DPS party, etc...) and they have some pretty good buffs/debuffs (also when you can survive the dungeons without a DC there's not much incentive to have one), the mentallity here is just DPS, nothing more, so for me the only way to make the GF class a lot more desirable would be to increase our DPS (just making some encounters strongers or faster by lowering their CD, for example ET, wouldn't unbalance PvP since nobody use it for PvP and it doesn't have any use there neither, but is a good example of a encounter that would increase a lot our DPS and aggro control in PvE if we can use it each 7~8 seconds, other thing could be slightly increasing our weapons damage, etc...), we won't match a DC in buffs no matter what change they make, so we have to be better at both things, giving a little more buffs and having a little more DPS than we do now, Mark giving Combat Advantage was a good move, but we will need more (and specially DPS, even if it's a little buff) to be one of the desirable classes for PvE.
However, I appreciate the changes that have been made so far.
I aggre with the ^ post, sometimes ppl don't even want a DC (for example for CTA runs ppl only want a 5 DPS party, etc...) and they have some pretty good buffs/debuffs (also when you can survive the dungeons without a DC there's not much incentive to have one), the mentallity here is just DPS, nothing more, so for me the only way to make the GF class a lot more desirable would be to increase our DPS (just making some encounters strongers or faster by lowering their CD, for example ET, wouldn't unbalance PvP since nobody use it for PvP and it doesn't have any use there neither, but is a good example of a encounter that would increase a lot our DPS and aggro control in PvE if we can use it each 7~8 seconds, other thing could be slightly increasing our weapons damage, etc...), we won't match a DC in buffs no matter what change they make, so we have to be better at both things, giving a little more buffs and having a little more DPS than we do now, Mark giving Combat Advantage was a good move, but we will need more (and specially DPS, even if it's a little buff) to be one of the desirable classes for PvE.
However, I appreciate the changes that have been made so far.
Well i guess making our dmg the same as other classes wouldn't be a bad thing and having us keep bad dmg because we are meant to be the tank makes no sense because the GWF has more defence and the cleric has more dmg than us lol
I also like the changes, really looking forward to mod 4 now but yeah we will still find it hard finding dungeon groups unless its from a guild.
A more sensible and lasting way may be to add some more innovative tactics (beside drowning the party in trashmobs), which makes it possible and useful to block some door, sneak behind the enemy line, draw a bigger mob away, lure them into a trap, etc.
Not only for GF, but also for TR and other chars not build towards DPS.
There are options - like in other major MMORPGs - the guardians are able draw lines on the ground which enemies cant cross. Great mechanic to keep your party safe and the tank useful. Or an aoe hot patch for your party.. Although when I think about it those seem more suited for a Paladin than a GF.
In reality however ( as many people have already stated ) NVW is a game where its 5 vs 5000 and DPS is king. Dont beleive me ? - just look at the supposed control class who was and still is the best dps class
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
yeah i know it actually bugs out like that sometimes, but i was refering to having full profound set bonus slotting shield talent and having 5/5 shieldmaster while using iron warrior in your loadout i cant factor in strength becuase each players is diffrent but there is that too also if you have a epic/legendary skull and the boons that give more stam. this setup will actually give you a near 100% uptime on shield not the glitchy way
You spoke about control.
What about control powers?Empowered Griffon's Wrath is so slow that is extremely difficult to land succesive hits.
Crushing Pin (after investing whole 5 points into it) gives a mere 10% more damage for THREE secs.Three secs is just a cleave swing.it is too low.
Crushing pin is not to low and is not meant to boost at will damage, it is more of a boost for encounter combos or a nice debuff on a boss to burn it faster and more than 10% would be excessive as this debuff is not just for the gf as it boosts everyone's damage against the controlled target. This is something I utilize regularly and find it one of the most potent feats at t1 it is awesome in my book.
Crushing Pin (the extra damage for 3 seconds after a control power)
There is no icd from me using it after any kind of control encounter that will proc it and thus the controlled target now takes 10% bonus damage from all sources for the next 3 seconds or depending on rotation longer.
this damage boost is not just for the gf lol if it goes any higher it gets op lol and its a t1 stop dreaming in technicolor
What matters if it is not just for the GF?We are talking for 5 points here.Shouldn't it be higher?It gets op???How it is get op?Right now it is useless.Five points useless.What if it is a t1?lol
memfgamesys which control powers you use and they are doing great with crushing pin?can you please name them?So the rest of the Gfs can use them?thanx
What matters if it is not just for the GF?We are talking for 5 points here.Shouldn't it be higher?It gets op???How it is get op?Right now it is useless.Five points useless.What if it is a t1?lol
memfgamesys which control powers you use and they are doing great with crushing pin?can you please name them?So the rest of the Gfs can use them?thanx
GW, BC, FLS, KB, AoD(with stun feat), and Flourish
If you invest in crushing pin to get the most out of it you should be using GW if not it will feel like you wasted 5 feat points on it.
EDIT: dailies that also proc crushing pin are terrifying impact, indomitable strength, and crescendo.
i knew the control powers ,i had searched when i was thinking about selecting crushing pin.As you said the only usable power that triggers it is GW.
In the past some stated that LS was control powwr;it is not i have tested it.In general Crushing pin makes a nice synergy with GW but 3 secs is too short on time.Why you insist it is op?Only 3 secs for 10% damage and after investing whole 5 points onto it.
I am thinking of respec just for this and put these 5 points into the Villain's Menace Conq tree feat.Anyway .
i knew the control powers ,i had searched when i was thinking about selecting crushing pin.As you said the only usable power that triggers it is GW.
In the past some stated that LS was control powwr;it is not i have tested it.In general Crushing pin makes a nice synergy with GW but 3 secs is too short on time.Why you insist it is op?Only 3 secs for 10% damage and after investing whole 5 points onto it.
I am thinking of respec just for this and put these 5 points into the Villain's Menace Conq tree feat.Anyway .
If you feel that having the extra 10% in villains is more appropriate I would do the same but currently I find crushing pin is excellent with my current playstyle(I do not want to tell people how to play the game as then it is no longer enjoyable for them).
i knew the control powers ,i had searched when i was thinking about selecting crushing pin.As you said the only usable power that triggers it is GW.
In the past some stated that LS was control powwr;it is not i have tested it.In general Crushing pin makes a nice synergy with GW but 3 secs is too short on time.Why you insist it is op?Only 3 secs for 10% damage and after investing whole 5 points onto it.
I am thinking of respec just for this and put these 5 points into the Villain's Menace Conq tree feat.Anyway .
I don't even use Crushing pin, the duration of 3 seconds is ridiculous for 5 feat points! I mean you knock someone down and you get one hit! lets say you bull charge then for 7k + 10% = 7700 damage? so 5 feat points for 700 damage every 14 seconds? no thanks Plate Agility is better!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Dont know bout Crush, but I for one am opposed to this. If they merge them and keep both working as they are, it would result in an insanely powerful Daily, couple that with our very reliable AP generation and you have the new unkillable GF who is not only immune to damage for 5 secs but also heals to full HP + deals alot more damage + is CC immune = nerf. Id rather keep my dailies as they are and pick what to use & when to use. As for you dude, if you want to have unstoppable so much just roll a GWF alt.
As i posted right below "I would tone it down some and limit the healing received by a capped % of course, remove the bonus damage on Villains and just use the immunity but this would be an amazing change!"
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I think this would be much more fair, it spreads out the damage boosts, gives crit in other areas... I mean for a T4 feat thats pretty lacking, and arguable the new RA is too powerful of a capstone...
I was also thinking of making a suggestion on tactical superiority as with the coming change to RA it becomes less so as it only benefits the first couple of strike which the new RA will not support and you would be better off putting those points elsewhere as since you need to be hit to gain damage tactical superiority is almost never going to be needed with the coming change to playstyle unless it adds something more than 15% damage without being hit which is counter intuitive compared to the new RA.
Crushing pin is not to low and is not meant to boost at will damage, it is more of a boost for encounter combos or a nice debuff on a boss to burn it faster and more than 10% would be excessive as this debuff is not just for the gf as it boosts everyone's damage against the controlled target. This is something I utilize regularly and find it one of the most potent feats at t1 it is awesome in my book.
Dude! First of all it clearly states:
Crushing Pin
"Your Control" powers cause the target to take 2/4/6/8/10% bonus damage for 3 seconds.
Second its 3 seconds.... Really its 3 tiny seconds for 1 attack. I could see if we could hit like an IBS for 25k but we can't and never will.
I don't even use it as its 5 wasted feats.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Crushing Pin
"Your Control" powers cause the target to take 2/4/6/8/10% bonus damage for 3 seconds.
Second its 3 seconds.... Really its 3 tiny seconds for 1 attack. I could see if we could hit like an IBS for 25k but we can't and never will.
I don't even use it as its 5 wasted feats.
This bonus affects other powers as in more damage for your party on a target you are controlling if you are more concerned about dealing damage yourself do not use it. Teamwork gets the job done.
What?! You really just said him and me are the same person? Could it be that we use the same English? Could be from the same area of the country? And maybe type on a qwerty keyboard which leads people to make the same mistakes typing similar words?
The fact that you spend that much time in your day is kind of pathetic. You should spend it testing the GF .
Ok so, control powers. Is the mark not a control power? I have never gotten a for sure answer. For instance, you bull charge someone, MARK frontline MARK lunging strike. Or is the mark not considered a control power? I wish Crush could chime in on this.
no mark is not a control power it does not proc crushing pin, it's just a mark that now gives us 20% DR reduction
on a side note crushing pin also procs off lunging strike for anyone that cares.
Are you using the feat to add an interrupt to lunge? As that would be the only way it would work imo, since I have never seen crushing pin proc when using lunge but it is not feated for the interrupt.
Comments
I agree we shouldnt have our shield 100% of the time but as for reckless attacker there is things you are forgetting unless you are talking about pve only. Suppose we was fighting a gwf, we cant stand head on, we have to deal dmg and then kite when they are in unstoppable and that requires us to lift our shield to block hits like roar or frontline and during most of the fight our shields will be at half anyway so now even if we get a dmg loss at least its basically constant dmg and crit.
No gf in pvp doesn't use there shield but no one should keep it up either, its about timing and knowing when to use it but its rare to have 100% guard meter when fighting another good player so i like the changes even thought i get a dmg nerf, our shields are better because they last longer, we have more crit, faster move speed while blocking and more hp.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You should try to calm down, but you have a good point, we are a Tank class in a game that doesn't need a Tank class (after a certain GS and Life Steal you don't even need a Cleric) and the only thing that ppl want is DPS in their parties, I hope this will change in the next mod, having harder dungeons and more challenging content unable to do with a lot of CW/GWF and/or DPS classes without a Tank and a Cleric if they are not very good geared (the GS requirement of the dungeons are not even 11K and we have +18K GS players, it's obvius that Tanks and Clerics are not needed by now), but anyway, I'm almost 99% sure it won't be like this
I know everyone wants a dps party to do dungeons faster but gf are more like a team leader class, we are meant to be the tank but that is never gonna happen as long as gwf are around. Our class has some team buff skills but instead of giving us dps we should have way more buff skills and maybe work in a leadership path where certain skills buff allies in all kinds of ways so people want a gf in the party to lead and tank enemies while buffing the whole party. This would also be useful in pvp. The cleric is great in pvp, able to keep the whole tram alive well so a high defended gf will many buffs could help the team a lot too.
Of course this should just be a path choice or something, I wouldn't want the gf to be like the cleric but at least people would want us for dungeons then.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The faceroll-roarspam-statabuse-community of this game demands DPS over everything else. If we can't DPS, we're not wanted. It's as simple as it can be. GF+DPS=wanted. GF-DPS=not wanted.
I aggre with the ^ post, sometimes ppl don't even want a DC (for example for CTA runs ppl only want a 5 DPS party, etc...) and they have some pretty good buffs/debuffs (also when you can survive the dungeons without a DC there's not much incentive to have one), the mentallity here is just DPS, nothing more, so for me the only way to make the GF class a lot more desirable would be to increase our DPS (just making some encounters strongers or faster by lowering their CD, for example ET, wouldn't unbalance PvP since nobody use it for PvP and it doesn't have any use there neither, but is a good example of a encounter that would increase a lot our DPS and aggro control in PvE if we can use it each 7~8 seconds, other thing could be slightly increasing our weapons damage, etc...), we won't match a DC in buffs no matter what change they make, so we have to be better at both things, giving a little more buffs and having a little more DPS than we do now, Mark giving Combat Advantage was a good move, but we will need more (and specially DPS, even if it's a little buff) to be one of the desirable classes for PvE.
However, I appreciate the changes that have been made so far.
my point is that in solo situations there isn't anything really wrong with any class. it's always in teams, whether it's against others or npcs.
Well i guess making our dmg the same as other classes wouldn't be a bad thing and having us keep bad dmg because we are meant to be the tank makes no sense because the GWF has more defence and the cleric has more dmg than us lol
I also like the changes, really looking forward to mod 4 now but yeah we will still find it hard finding dungeon groups unless its from a guild.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
There are options - like in other major MMORPGs - the guardians are able draw lines on the ground which enemies cant cross. Great mechanic to keep your party safe and the tank useful. Or an aoe hot patch for your party.. Although when I think about it those seem more suited for a Paladin than a GF.
In reality however ( as many people have already stated ) NVW is a game where its 5 vs 5000 and DPS is king. Dont beleive me ? - just look at the supposed control class who was and still is the best dps class
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
yeah i know it actually bugs out like that sometimes, but i was refering to having full profound set bonus slotting shield talent and having 5/5 shieldmaster while using iron warrior in your loadout i cant factor in strength becuase each players is diffrent but there is that too also if you have a epic/legendary skull and the boons that give more stam. this setup will actually give you a near 100% uptime on shield not the glitchy way
Crushing pin is not to low and is not meant to boost at will damage, it is more of a boost for encounter combos or a nice debuff on a boss to burn it faster and more than 10% would be excessive as this debuff is not just for the gf as it boosts everyone's damage against the controlled target. This is something I utilize regularly and find it one of the most potent feats at t1 it is awesome in my book.
what does?
Crushing Pin (the extra damage for 3 seconds after a control power)
There is no icd from me using it after any kind of control encounter that will proc it and thus the controlled target now takes 10% bonus damage from all sources for the next 3 seconds or depending on rotation longer.
What matters if it is not just for the GF?We are talking for 5 points here.Shouldn't it be higher?It gets op???How it is get op?Right now it is useless.Five points useless.What if it is a t1?lol
memfgamesys which control powers you use and they are doing great with crushing pin?can you please name them?So the rest of the Gfs can use them?thanx
GW, BC, FLS, KB, AoD(with stun feat), and Flourish
If you invest in crushing pin to get the most out of it you should be using GW if not it will feel like you wasted 5 feat points on it.
EDIT: dailies that also proc crushing pin are terrifying impact, indomitable strength, and crescendo.
i knew the control powers ,i had searched when i was thinking about selecting crushing pin.As you said the only usable power that triggers it is GW.
In the past some stated that LS was control powwr;it is not i have tested it.In general Crushing pin makes a nice synergy with GW but 3 secs is too short on time.Why you insist it is op?Only 3 secs for 10% damage and after investing whole 5 points onto it.
I am thinking of respec just for this and put these 5 points into the Villain's Menace Conq tree feat.Anyway .
If you feel that having the extra 10% in villains is more appropriate I would do the same but currently I find crushing pin is excellent with my current playstyle(I do not want to tell people how to play the game as then it is no longer enjoyable for them).
I don't even use Crushing pin, the duration of 3 seconds is ridiculous for 5 feat points! I mean you knock someone down and you get one hit! lets say you bull charge then for 7k + 10% = 7700 damage? so 5 feat points for 700 damage every 14 seconds? no thanks Plate Agility is better!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
As i posted right below "I would tone it down some and limit the healing received by a capped % of course, remove the bonus damage on Villains and just use the immunity but this would be an amazing change!"
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I was also thinking of making a suggestion on tactical superiority as with the coming change to RA it becomes less so as it only benefits the first couple of strike which the new RA will not support and you would be better off putting those points elsewhere as since you need to be hit to gain damage tactical superiority is almost never going to be needed with the coming change to playstyle unless it adds something more than 15% damage without being hit which is counter intuitive compared to the new RA.
Dude! First of all it clearly states:
Crushing Pin
"Your Control" powers cause the target to take 2/4/6/8/10% bonus damage for 3 seconds.
Second its 3 seconds.... Really its 3 tiny seconds for 1 attack. I could see if we could hit like an IBS for 25k but we can't and never will.
I don't even use it as its 5 wasted feats.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This bonus affects other powers as in more damage for your party on a target you are controlling if you are more concerned about dealing damage yourself do not use it. Teamwork gets the job done.
no mark is not a control power it does not proc crushing pin, it's just a mark that now gives us 20% DR reduction
Are you using the feat to add an interrupt to lunge? As that would be the only way it would work imo, since I have never seen crushing pin proc when using lunge but it is not feated for the interrupt.