Has anybody tried the new dungeon? Wow. My Conqueror's fragility (which isn't aided by that block) showed up. I was taking massive damage from the mobs to the point that I stopped using Enforced Threat because my defenses could not cope. Do the devs release that 20% multiplied by multiple mobs hitting you at once amounts to a significant amount of damage? This is worsened when you surrender combat advantage, which will be common practice with Enforced Threat aggroing half the map. You'll be taking bonus damage from enemies behind you and you will be bleeding out through your guard. The dragon was hitting me like a truck as well through guard.
GFs as they are on Preview are going to put a lot of pressure on DCs, especially if you are wearing the slightly softer Knight Captain set.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I am going to have to put a disclaimer on each of my post I guess.
Emil, Bro I'm not mad at you nor trying to be insulting, but in a lot of my post I have stated I do not PVP (its personnel been there in the real world, don't want to do in my entertainment world)..
My rotations would not work in PVP, I understand that, many of you have explained why.
My build is Pve only, with main emphasis against bosses and their adds. I am trying to prove that a GF because of our skills and feats can be a better tank in PvE than the GWF's. It will then be up to you guys that PvP to take the build and modify it to suit you in the PvP field.
But I am running out of time, I have to earn enough though my leadership mules to finish this build, right now I cannot influx the cash to finish him faster. If I had more time I could prove it.
This is my second GF, I made one on an alt leadership mule acct to experiment with, I learned from my mistakes on that GF and applied all that I learned to my main.
I am almost 100% positive if I can finish him, enchants/artifacts/going 2/2 on armor and a few other tweeks that my damage will be on par with the gwf's (I know a lot are going to laugh at that but guy its the truth). What makes us (GF's) better is our ability to nuke the bosses def, not once but twice (mark=reduces def +tide of iron = reduces def) and they stack.
Hah, you actually got my name right from that joke of a nick I use..well done
As for your post, its my bad I did the one think I rly dislike in others - I assumed lol. Anyways PVE is a different animal altogether. I'm interested to run a dungeon with your GF just to see that damage output. You take into account things like weapon enchants Im sure. I play both fighters - both stay in PVP gear almost all the time ( even when dungeon delving ) as I have maximised my toons' ability based on Profound/Grim armor combinations. My GWF is a 17k Destroyer, he doesnt have mark nor tide of iron but he uses G.Plaguefire and along with my ArmPen Im pretty sure all mobs get to below zero Def. On top of that goes my very reliable crit and the rest of the Destroyers damage buffs. I dont see a GF coming even remotely close to that ( even with increased crit chance ).
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
0
epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
many people have also said stuff like, who said the guardian fighter is a tank when the Great Weapons fighter can do the same thing better?
Then people say they are both fighter classes... some people only prefer to play the GF because it has a shield over a huge sword.
A lazy simply solution like what was done with the gwfs mod 2 was it?
Make the GF and GWF the same or atleast simmilar destroyer > conqueror, instigator > Tactition, Sentinal > Proctector. isent it funny how the trees sound so simmilar and yet gwf final skills are much better.
Many people would agree with this in away because they are both fighters.. the diversity is already broken anyway with the gwfs being able to tank.
Rips, my at wills are hitting a lot higher than the numbers you posted, a lot higher.
Do you have GW feated?
Its description is misleading, but if you feat GW its second hit is almost on par with anvil of doom, I`m not making this stuff up I have nothing to gain.
But you have to have the power to back these skills up, the changes to power in mod3 are what make this build work, without the power its a nuked build.
If the class wasn't so close to being nuked I would never share what I have found out, heck I even wrote crush gave him permission to copy my toon and test it out, do you guys think for a moment I would do that if I wasn't trying to help you and the other GF's out.
I don't doubt using a feated griffons for the extra damage on top of the other buffs can be good, but you won't be getting a GW off much in pvp. In pve I use GW, but relying on a quirky setup of all our moons to line up to do good damage is not out answer.
i will test some more things tonight on preview
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I don't doubt using a feated griffons for the extra damage on top of the other buffs can be good, but you won't be getting a GW off much in pvp. In pve I use GW, but relying on a quirky setup of all our moons to line up to do good damage is not out answer.
i will test some more things tonight on preview
Rips, I apologize, I have started posting a disclaimer on each of my post that it pertains to PVe only.
What I am trying to do is prove my build in the Pve arena, at that point it will be up to you guys that PvP to take it modify it and adapt it to the PvP arena, you all know much more about the PvP aspects than I do.
Feedback: Block Movement Speed So after a decent amount of hours testing block movement speed (both PvE & PvP), I must say the new movement speed is essential, especially since we still take 20% damage through our shields of holes (which I STRONGLY recommend you remove).
Feedback: New Guard System I still get hit for 5k+ during both PvP and PvE (it's much worse in PvE. Especially when blocking dragon breath attacks !!). Ex; On the final boss on MC, I normally save Supremacy of Steel for when the dragon is about to do his lightning breath attack to reflect damage. However, this is no longer a good option for it's EXTREMELY dangerous!!! I STRONGLY recommend you scrap the 20% damage, or the stamina idea all together. The current guard meter works just fine, all it needs is a BUFF. I'm fully aware the guard meter acts as another source of HP, and you fear that will make us OP (which is false because other classes it harder than us; that's the balance). The stamina guard meter was a decent idea in all, but it's NOT gonna get the job done too the extent many players want and NEED. Please reconsider this.
Go test out the 20% damage for yourselves if you don't believe me. Not to mention the new Black Ice damage players have to deal with now.
- I am only replying to his getting hit for 5k in pvp. that would mean he had to of been hit for something HUGE if soaked 80%. Guard is currently getting debuffed, and can be debuffed to zero or even negative. This needs fixed
Emilemo is correct, the hypothesis is against a TR you will not land a Tide of Iron! You can land a bull charge or Lunging strike as they will pluck you down with throwng blades and Bilethorn from afar and come in to land a heavy attack if you allowed you guard to break. If do not however let your guard break you will be equally screwed as you are now probably 50% hp...
I can get a few hits on a good TR, but landing a Tide of iron? No way they never stay close to me long enough, They pop out on the opposite side of the pillar I can get a speedy strike off thats it.
Tide of Iron doesn't have to "hit" to work.If they dodge, it still applies, if they are invisible, or even blocking, it still works. So even if you see "immune" or "dodged" or anything like that, they still get the debuff as long as you halfway connect.
Tide of Iron doesn't have to "hit" to work.If they dodge, it still applies, if they are invisible, or even blocking, it still works. So even if you see "immune" or "dodged" or anything like that, they still get the debuff as long as you halfway connect.
TY fresh, I want to also verifly this is true in the PvE aspect also.
If it was just the damage bonus I can see that not being a problem, but you'd have even more Knight's Cheese GF's in pvp nuking pugs if it included crit as well. It would take a less skilled set up even less skill, so I think they were trying to encourage us having to take a little damage and fulfilling the role that they see for us. I agree 5 stacks takes less than a few seconds, if they have GPF, it takes literally less than a second to cap it out. But having it up all the time would encourage the class in a different direction than I think they are trying to go, not saying it is right, or wrong, but not what they see it being
Wrong. Spamming prones, is something that even a monkey can do. Using KC properly takes some brains. (Pinky)
Fresh, why so negative guy. No I do not use KC to me it is a lousy skill, but to others it may be great. Isn't that what this game is about diversity, different races, different builds played by those that create the toon.
Come on guy, right now is when we as GF's have to pull together not against each other. Internal strife splits the class to us against them, then we meaning the entire GF class looses.
- I apologize if my frustration crept into that post lol. I struggle with a few people here that are trying to change the class on the single idea that they want whatever changes that happen to benefit Knight's Challenge, and they post a lot. They do not reply to my PM's to try and settle it b/w us, so that option is out the window. I have had just as much fun with KC as everyone else. But as far as I can tell Crush wants there to be some incentive to get hit. He wants us to actually be a tank, and he may not be perfect at it, but that is the direction he is wanting us to go. I believe the stacks could be reduced to 3, but as for 100% uptime that seems almost too easy for his taste.
- As the current guard meter stands, it is 100% broken. It can be mitigated, to zero. Our damage boost is 5 of the 25% we will get soon. To me it has felt like my Action Point gain is tremendously diminished in PVP and I haven't quite figure out why yet, even when doing tactician and comparing same build same gear on test and live, it charges slower. Not sure I'm the only one that noticed that.
- But to sum it up, I really just want our class to get better. Reverting the old block, and old capstone puts us right back where we were. And currently that isn't very good in comparison with others. The new capstone may be rough, playing swordmaster especially for me feels like Im a 800 lb paper weight compared to how nimble I feel as Vangard, but mod 4.. Vangard is gone (for damage). The block needs some more work, but it will make us MUCH more tankier than the old block. The new capstone once fixed, will make us deal much more damage overall than before. So it is frustrating to see comments on reverts, when the math is simple, the mechanics are right there. We can block AND be offensive, that is an entire new facet of the Guardian that we have never had.
But I do think Tact and Protector need a reworked Capstone as they are just so so, (NOT BAD) - but no where they should be.
... so I think they were trying to encourage us having to take a little damage and fulfilling the role that they see for us.
We are already encouraged to take at least a little damage/attacks, since blocking attacks builds action points. The tactician additionally builds action points if he doesn't block attacks. If getting action points is not an incentive, I don't know what is.
But aside from that, replacing the reckless attacker feat with something new to implement the idea of making us fullfill a certain role they see for us (BAD idea at this stage) comes along with problems, here just (another) one:
The higher the gearscore of your party, the less tanking is required and the lower is your chance as a GF to get a slot in the party, because the stronger parties control and dps everything down very fast. The proposed Reckless Attacker feat that is at the preview server makes this situation even worse, and this is why:
Since the mobs die fast and painless in stronger parties, you will take less damage and thus the new reckless attacker feat would proc less. Sometimes not a single mob of a pack gets the opportunity to attack at all, so the new reckless attacker wouldn't give you a single stack. This means that parties of higher gearscore that already are not interested in bringing tanking abilities to the party now have even less interest in taking a GF since your dps is lower when running with them.
With the reckless attacker feat of the live server the situation is vice versa - You still have a low chance to get invited to stronger parties but at least you deal more damage in these parties since your guard meter doesn't deplete as much with them. And that means your chance to get invited by a stronger party is a little less low.
If we don't switch to the stamina-guard we can keep our old reckless attacker feat which synergizes well with stronger parties. That makes us more desirable for these stronger parties, and increases our chance to get an invite from them. Stop the stamina-guard!
I agree with you, most parties are all about DPS, Cc comes in second when DPS can control the mob. I have said it before its a true statement for any MMO "he who does the most damage controls the mob".
Right now on live, threat and improved threat are destructive taunts, they deal damage, which is easily over ridden by the insane damages GWF's, Nukers and rangers can dish out. In other games the taunts were not damage based, meaning they did not damage the mobs, but had a higher pull then physical damage did, sounds confusing doesn't it. In those other games their taunt was like our tab>mark, it caused no damage but pulled the mob to you.
If the taunts or threats in this game were changed to utilize the tab>mark mechanics but stronger, so its power would be higher then the damages other classes can generate that would fix the problem, without over powering the GF.
I think this is what the devs/crush is trying to do, but no disrespect to the devs/crush your making it so complicated I cannot understand what your trying to do.
The fact that ET now is capped at 20 we will get the most aggro and sustain from it compared to a cw who does more dps since singularity only does 8 which is what our current ET is on live. If you are worried about threat in mod 4 please know that ET having a higher mob count also means more dps for us in pve which means alot more threat than what we can generate. ET will become the number one encounter in pve hands down for large groups of mobs.
I swear our glowing finger power will save us in pve!
mfg, not quite sure I am understanding you, so correct me if I am wrong here guy. The number of mobs you can pull isn't the same as the amount of power you exert upon them to hold them on you. Its like currently on live and most every other game, you hit a target for 20k damage and someone hits it for 25k damage the mob is going to mitigate towards the higher damage. This is the problem every mmo has faced with Cc toons. The power to pull or hold the mob onto you has to be higher than the damages other players can generate, or else the mob moves. Well if you increase the damage based Cc against a mob you create an unfairly over powered toon. So the power to pull the mobs has to be non damaging to the mobs or else a DC with a high damaging Cc could out damage a DD toon. With me so far?
Currently our threats are damage based, meaning they exert xx# of points damage against a mob to pull it toward you, well a DD smacks the mob for twice the amount of damage your threat did, the mob goes to him.
Our threats need to be non damage based, and that value set to be first selected by the mob, instead of pure damage based Cc. A group of 4 archers because of their high burst damage can go into an epic and space themselves apart then time their ranged attacks correctly so that the boss is constantly pulled from one archer to the other, this allows the group to control the boss and allows none of the archers to sustain massive damage from the boss, since it is being pulled from one archer to the other then the other so forth and so forth, til the boss is dead (that's Old school before Cc was even installed into any games).
i wouldnt worry to much about being able to hold threat and mobs on you if you read the first page you would understand why here i will show you
Mark: Now causes you to deal 200% (up from 100%) additional threat on Marked targets.
Mark: Marked targets now grant combat advantage to the Guardian's Allies.
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Enhanced Mark: Now grants 75% bonus threat per rank (up from 33%).
Knight's Valor: Now transfer's 200% (up from 50%) of the threat allies deal to you
Iron Warrior: Base threat bonus increased to 200% (up from 150%).
Iron Warrior: This power now properly increases threat generation.
lol so every 15s(that if you have no recovery or the 10% cooldown feat) you should be spamming like crazy and if you cant hold mobs on you with this then your doing something wrong especially if you have enhanced mark and are spamming enforced threat mobs will be all over you like ants on sugar.
now for all of you complaining to revert to old block, you guys are crazy and i was a big advocate of keeping it the same until the recent update on the time it takes to deplete. old block was horrid compared to the new one why would anyone want to move slow making it easier for players in pvp to get behind you, have your shield eaten up by small hits and dots in a matter of a second and still get cc'ed through it.
new block allows us to move faster making the gameplay better and more versatile, we can not be cc'ed by anything while guarding(as long as it is frontward), if oyu spec right and have even a decent amount of stamina gain you can keep block up for quite some time. to all you q.qr's out there your just upset because conquer doesnt work how it used to and guess what the new capstone is actually better but your all complaining because you have failed to realise it isnt fixed yet as in it is showing the 5 stacks but we are only benefit form 1 of them the crit part is fine when it's fixed you will see.
secondly our block currently is bugged or not working as intended because players/mobs can mitigate it which is not WAI or in anycase should never work like that wait for the fix crush said he is working on it, im looking forward and hope to see how it plays out
and for those KC users stop trolling pugs who do you kc wizards and dc's thats about it try KC'ng even a decent geared TR or GWF and you will die so fast before you can even say what happened it's a terrible skill to use in pvp and a great skill in pve and i guarentee if im in a match against you even my protector GF will beat your KC lung bull rotation.
From what I have found via testing. Our block is not where it is going to be.
Block
Block is capped at 80% DR. And since it is DR, things like thornward can reduce it zero, so I am holding my shield and taking full damage. So once that is fixed it will be a beast. I was able to keep near continuous block for 50 seconds of a minute, and that was max feated, max artifacts, max strength, max stamina gain via boons, so that could be good, but it should be increased because with that set up you aren't going to hurt anything. But like I said, currently it can be mitigated to nothing
Capstone
5% damage is rough testing right now, the crit is ok, but 20% damage increase will be a BIG noticeable difference.
Before anyone tests again
Lets let Crush fix the block, if it is meant to be mitigated, then I would then suggest a revert and leaving the capstone where it is. If our block can be mitigated, there are some classes that can reduce it zero, essentially making it useless.
i humbly request the devs attention of this can we please get a response to this problem ASAP this should not be working off our DR and should not be able to be mitigated thank you.
also bump again before it gets lost in the flow of pages of people complaining about Knights challenge because this is important and needs to be fixed asap this hsould not happen with our shift mechanic as in it should be working on a different DR set that cant be mitigated.
Ice. If you had done your homework before coming in here you would know that the new capstone grants a max (5 hits x 5% each hit= +25%) damage increase which will be based upon a GF with 4.5 to perhaps 5.5k power. Which in no way comes close to the damage a GF with 10-11k power can generate.
Also a lot of GF's first strike is with lunging strike, without getting hit five times before attacking the mob you are severely handicapped, half power as current on live and no +25% damage increase.
Now there are plenty of power to damage formulas floating around on the web so may I suggest you taking the time to look one up and use it. Once you do that, you will see this is a severe nerf to the conq tree.
now for all of you complaining to revert to old block, you guys are crazy and i was a big advocate of keeping it the same until the recent update on the time it takes to deplete. old block was horrid compared to the new one why would anyone want to move slow making it easier for players in pvp to get behind you, have your shield eaten up by small hits and dots in a matter of a second and still get cc'ed through it.
I could easily reason similarly against the stamina-guard the same way by comparing it to a buffed version of the guard/block mechanic at the live server (for example giving the guard/block at the live server 20 times the guard meter pool it currently has). Would that be fair? No, certainly not. It would be just as unfair as making a comparison with the current stamina-guard which, as you pointed out, is currently bugged. The point is this: both kind of block/guard mechanics can be easily buffed so that they outperform the other one. Thus the question here is: If both, the current and the stamina-guard get buffed so that they are at a level playing field, which one of the two do you favor?
I have brought up many reasons which speak against the stamina-guard because of HOW it works in this thread, I encourage you to look at it.
to all you q.qr's out there your just upset because conquer doesnt work how it used to and guess what the new capstone is actually better but your all complaining because you have failed to realise it isnt fixed yet as in it is showing the 5 stacks but we are only benefit form 1 of them the crit part is fine when it's fixed you will see.
Please take a look at post #555 at page 56 in this thread and look at the numbers. But again, this is a similiar issue like the two guard/block mechanics: Compare both if they are at a level playing field. Don't favor one of them because it is (currently) more effective, instead look at HOW it works.
What makes you think that the current guard/block at the live server couldn't get an equal speed buff? However, the reduced speed isn't too bad, it functions as a trade off for raising the shield, and makes us ponder wether we realy want to activate it. By the way, looking at my GF sidestepping at the preview server while blocking just makes me think: "Oh crab!"
One last thing: The main part of this game is PvE, not PvP. This overhaul of our class is driven by PvP related demands. The results are a change in the core nature of our class more than one year after open beta has ended, negative fallout effects that come along this overhaul (they have been specified in this thread by different players), and several new bugs which are currently only partially known.
I understand the wish of PvP players for a better experience, but I can't go along with this overhaul knowing the heavy negative aspects of it. To be constructive, I tried to come up with ideas to help out the PvP focused players (who seem to me particularly concerned with high numbers of small attacks impacting in a short time span) while still keeping the old guard/block mechanism and the old reckless attacker feat. For those who are interested: Take a look at post #533 at page 54 in this thread.
Sure, first strike may be lunging, second usually frontline, followed by a threat rush, one cleave then bull charge. BUT in most cases in pvp, you will be on a node when someone comes to the node, if it is the other way around you'll have help so it won't matter. But threat rush,or marking, or getting a few shield bashes while blocking is not really gonna be that big of a disadvantage.
I'm not sure how many of you guys played with the old Stalwart in PVP before it got nerfed to oblivion. But you basically ran onto two, wore hits for about 1 second, got all your stacks then destroyed people. 5 stacks will take less than 2 seconds to get up, no problem.
Ice. If you had done your homework before coming in here you would know that the new capstone grants a max (5 hits x 5% each hit= +25%) damage increase which will be based upon a GF with 4.5 to perhaps 5.5k power. Which in no way comes close to the damage a GF with 10-11k power can generate.
Also a lot of GF's first strike is with lunging strike, without getting hit five times before attacking the mob you are severely handicapped, half power as current on live and no +25% damage increase.
Now there are plenty of power to damage formulas floating around on the web so may I suggest you taking the time to look one up and use it. Once you do that, you will see this is a severe nerf to the conq tree.
I never understand why people have such a hard time understanding the old capstone... If you have 10k power, only HALF of that power is from the capstone... 10k power = about 59% damage boost, again HALF of which (28.5%) is from the capstone... So the effect to a 10k power GF is the +25% dmg boost is only about 3% less tooltip damage than the old RA... BUT to compensate you get 10% crit too... Which if you have a base of 75% crit severity means a 7.5% dps boost.
A net GAIN of about 3%.
Also as its been highlighted here many times, not only do our powers have higher caps like ET they cause more threat AND some even "hard taunt" too. Meaning it will be VERY easy to get and maintain 5stacks.
The only players that may see a small decrease in performance are PVE power stacked GFs who significantly putgear content and thus dont have to block. Take a proper GS GF into CN and he will HAVE to block and will lose RA bonus... Ontop of that his old RA bonus probably wasnt a 10kpower score so its that much worse for him....
For everyone else this opens more gear choices more stat choices more play styles and all around a buff the class needed!
Hey all, we have a few more changes hopefully hitting this week.
Unstoppable: Now grants 15~30% DR when activated (up from 10~20%).
Sprint: Stamina cost of Sprint reduced by roughly 40%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
see even in mod 4 no dd for us gwf senti again takes our place
Sentinel were keeping the original unstoppable DR, so I don't know how that will change anything (heck, they currently get 50-100% DR because they didn't adjust the 5x unstoppable DR capstone to adjust for the 10-20% amount).
what i want to say is even if we become 'moving sings' why anyone whould ask in lfg for gf when senti can still dish out more dmg than conq ?? not to say about those who play protector or tactician which are left rotting....
I never understand why people have such a hard time understanding the old capstone... If you have 10k power, only HALF of that power is from the capstone... 10k power = about 59% damage boost, again HALF of which (28.5%) is from the capstone... So the effect to a 10k power GF is the +25% dmg boost is only about 3% less tooltip damage than the old RA... BUT to compensate you get 10% crit too... Which if you have a base of 75% crit severity means a 7.5% dps boost.
A net GAIN of about 3%.
Also as its been highlighted here many times, not only do our powers have higher caps like ET they cause more threat AND some even "hard taunt" too. Meaning it will be VERY easy to get and maintain 5stacks.
The only players that may see a small decrease in performance are PVE power stacked GFs who significantly putgear content and thus dont have to block. Take a proper GS GF into CN and he will HAVE to block and will lose RA bonus... Ontop of that his old RA bonus probably wasnt a 10kpower score so its that much worse for him....
For everyone else this opens more gear choices more stat choices more play styles and all around a buff the class needed!
ayroux, again guy you are looking at it strictly from the PvP aspect of the game, that's cool that's where you gain your enjoyment from.
I do understand the old capstone, completely understand it that is why I am fighting so hard to keep it. It amounts to more then a 3% loss, plus having to get smacked 5 times before you gain your damage potential back that you had more of, in the old capstone. It is like we are going backwards to the old stalwart set instead of going forward.
Plus guy come on, crit, really on a GF, I would never doubt you and be all for it on a rouge where crit is his life and he can generate up to and above +50% crit, but on a GF. We cannot generate the crit values a rouge can, so therefore crit is a pleasant surprise when it happens, its a variable so not to be counted on. Why waste a valuable weapon slot on a vorpal when a PF or Ter gives a constant damage increase, which if added up over time is equal to or greater to a vorp with the low crit % we as GF's have. I am at over 2k crit and the crit % is still low, its almost comical. Yes it is sweet when a crit occurs but again it is a variable none constant figure.
Look at post #586 I made suggestions to help the entire class, not just the Pve side but also to help the PvP side.
ayroux, again guy you are looking at it strictly from the PvP aspect of the game, that's cool that's where you gain your enjoyment from.
I do understand the old capstone, completely understand it that is why I am fighting so hard to keep it. It amounts to more then a 3% loss, plus having to get smacked 5 times before you gain your damage potential back that you had more of, in the old capstone. It is like we are going backwards to the old stalwart set instead of going forward.
Plus guy come on, crit, really on a GF, I would never doubt you and be all for it on a rouge where crit is his life and he can generate up to and above +50% crit, but on a GF. We cannot generate the crit values a rouge can, so therefore crit is a pleasant surprise when it happens, its a variable so not to be counted on. Why waste a valuable weapon slot on a vorpal when a PF or Ter gives a constant damage increase, which if added up over time is equal to or greater to a vorp with the low crit % we as GF's have. I am at over 2k crit and the crit % is still low, its almost comical. Yes it is sweet when a crit occurs but again it is a variable none constant figure.
Look at post #586 I made suggestions to help the entire class, not just the Pve side but also to help the PvP side.
Greater Plague Fire - With our attack speed, encounters and everything it is VERY difficult to keep all three stacks on. Granted in PVE you can manage to pull it off, but I recommend Terror over this for damage purposes, unless you are trying to get rampaging madness, in which GPF is good, but you'd get more damage out of a lightning or something along those lines as well as the stacks.
Perfect Vorpal - I agree the crit chance is low... BUT - It is not difficult to get a 20-22% chance to crit, add 10% to that, and we are freaking talking! 30% has seemed to be the magic number for me, add a rogue to that, and we are talking mid to upper 30's crit chance on a guardian....
We CRUSH things when we crit, we out DPS GWF's mod 4 as is, imagine after the 20% damage boost lol. I promise a GF will out DPS a GWF in Mod 4. If he is destroyer he won't take any hits and will die and still not hit that hard, if he is sent he'll be tanky but his damage is AWFUL! like IBS crits for 3-4k lol, it is hilarious.
Don't give up on vorpal. I use it in PVP because the burst is the way to go, sort of like the old fashioned runescape 3 hit if anyone used to play runescape classic. We don't have the defense to wear things down, so burst is our best shot. In PVE of course, it is a bit different. with the new threat system keeping those 5 stacks up will be extremely easy
Without Black Ice Gear, Not using my Perfect Vorpal, No Rank 10's, No maxed Artifacts, Pets off,
Have beaten all but 1 GWF, and he was in fact in a sentinel and it was a long drawn out fight and he got me in the end. 1v1 in pvp I say yes, we have more defense than a destroyer and can put out better numbers than do as well. The kicker is with their unstoppable stacks, that is there big damage boost right? Well we can still get a big hit on them and easily block all this damage since we move so much faster now ESPECIALLY when block gets fixed. In PVE we can hold better Aggro and take more Damage than a GWF, as well as control mobs much better than either gwf with enforced and frontline, the mobs are all over you.
The old Destroyer is dead. It always did that damage, no one wanted to be squishy. Mod 4 = no more destroyer tanks. They can still hit hard, sure. But we can hit hard too. AND we can take more damage than they can over longer periods of time. For once a destroyers unstoppable wears off, and the T1 set gets nerfed (which healed them) - they are just gonna die man. I promise, we are freaking back as a good class. And once our 20% damage bonus is back, and the block is no longer defuffable DR, we are going to decimate.
Greater Plague Fire - With our attack speed, encounters and everything it is VERY difficult to keep all three stacks on. Granted in PVE you can manage to pull it off, but I recommend Terror over this for damage purposes, unless you are trying to get rampaging madness, in which GPF is good, but you'd get more damage out of a lightning or something along those lines as well as the stacks.
Perfect Vorpal - I agree the crit chance is low... BUT - It is not difficult to get a 20-22% chance to crit, add 10% to that, and we are freaking talking! 30% has seemed to be the magic number for me, add a rogue to that, and we are talking mid to upper 30's crit chance on a guardian....
We CRUSH things when we crit, we out DPS GWF's mod 4 as is, imagine after the 20% damage boost lol. I promise a GF will out DPS a GWF in Mod 4. If he is destroyer he won't take any hits and will die and still not hit that hard, if he is sent he'll be tanky but his damage is AWFUL! like IBS crits for 3-4k lol, it is hilarious.
Don't give up on vorpal. I use it in PVP because the burst is the way to go, sort of like the old fashioned runescape 3 hit if anyone used to play runescape classic. We don't have the defense to wear things down, so burst is our best shot. In PVE of course, it is a bit different. with the new threat system keeping those 5 stacks up will be extremely easy
Fres, exactly that's why I went terror, plus did you know chaotic damage bypasses armor and goes straight against hp, combined with 2.5k a/p you basically bypass all reflect and most def and deal massive damage.
Yeah I haven't tested the Perfect Terror in a high end Dungeon as I really gave up on them as they just seem to be more of the same, even though I have heard good things about the Mod 4 Dungeon.
Vorpal > GPF in PVP - UNLESS you wants stacks of madness, or are running a reflect briartwine debuf build.
I still think Vorpal is pretty king, but Perfect Terror is not a waste of time in PVP either, so yeah I'll agree with you it is pretty good. Especially since it stacks with Greater Plaguefires.
Comments
GFs as they are on Preview are going to put a lot of pressure on DCs, especially if you are wearing the slightly softer Knight Captain set.
Hah, you actually got my name right from that joke of a nick I use..well done
As for your post, its my bad I did the one think I rly dislike in others - I assumed lol. Anyways PVE is a different animal altogether. I'm interested to run a dungeon with your GF just to see that damage output. You take into account things like weapon enchants Im sure. I play both fighters - both stay in PVP gear almost all the time ( even when dungeon delving ) as I have maximised my toons' ability based on Profound/Grim armor combinations. My GWF is a 17k Destroyer, he doesnt have mark nor tide of iron but he uses G.Plaguefire and along with my ArmPen Im pretty sure all mobs get to below zero Def. On top of that goes my very reliable crit and the rest of the Destroyers damage buffs. I dont see a GF coming even remotely close to that ( even with increased crit chance ).
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Then people say they are both fighter classes... some people only prefer to play the GF because it has a shield over a huge sword.
A lazy simply solution like what was done with the gwfs mod 2 was it?
Make the GF and GWF the same or atleast simmilar destroyer > conqueror, instigator > Tactition, Sentinal > Proctector. isent it funny how the trees sound so simmilar and yet gwf final skills are much better.
Many people would agree with this in away because they are both fighters.. the diversity is already broken anyway with the gwfs being able to tank.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
I don't doubt using a feated griffons for the extra damage on top of the other buffs can be good, but you won't be getting a GW off much in pvp. In pve I use GW, but relying on a quirky setup of all our moons to line up to do good damage is not out answer.
i will test some more things tonight on preview
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Rips, I apologize, I have started posting a disclaimer on each of my post that it pertains to PVe only.
What I am trying to do is prove my build in the Pve arena, at that point it will be up to you guys that PvP to take it modify it and adapt it to the PvP arena, you all know much more about the PvP aspects than I do.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
- I am only replying to his getting hit for 5k in pvp. that would mean he had to of been hit for something HUGE if soaked 80%. Guard is currently getting debuffed, and can be debuffed to zero or even negative. This needs fixed
Tide of Iron doesn't have to "hit" to work.If they dodge, it still applies, if they are invisible, or even blocking, it still works. So even if you see "immune" or "dodged" or anything like that, they still get the debuff as long as you halfway connect.
rips, do you have it feated, the description is misleading, but if you feat it the damage is insane, close to anvil on second hit.
TY fresh, I want to also verifly this is true in the PvE aspect also.
Wrong. Spamming prones, is something that even a monkey can do. Using KC properly takes some brains. (Pinky)
- I apologize if my frustration crept into that post lol. I struggle with a few people here that are trying to change the class on the single idea that they want whatever changes that happen to benefit Knight's Challenge, and they post a lot. They do not reply to my PM's to try and settle it b/w us, so that option is out the window. I have had just as much fun with KC as everyone else. But as far as I can tell Crush wants there to be some incentive to get hit. He wants us to actually be a tank, and he may not be perfect at it, but that is the direction he is wanting us to go. I believe the stacks could be reduced to 3, but as for 100% uptime that seems almost too easy for his taste.
- As the current guard meter stands, it is 100% broken. It can be mitigated, to zero. Our damage boost is 5 of the 25% we will get soon. To me it has felt like my Action Point gain is tremendously diminished in PVP and I haven't quite figure out why yet, even when doing tactician and comparing same build same gear on test and live, it charges slower. Not sure I'm the only one that noticed that.
- But to sum it up, I really just want our class to get better. Reverting the old block, and old capstone puts us right back where we were. And currently that isn't very good in comparison with others. The new capstone may be rough, playing swordmaster especially for me feels like Im a 800 lb paper weight compared to how nimble I feel as Vangard, but mod 4.. Vangard is gone (for damage). The block needs some more work, but it will make us MUCH more tankier than the old block. The new capstone once fixed, will make us deal much more damage overall than before. So it is frustrating to see comments on reverts, when the math is simple, the mechanics are right there. We can block AND be offensive, that is an entire new facet of the Guardian that we have never had.
But I do think Tact and Protector need a reworked Capstone as they are just so so, (NOT BAD) - but no where they should be.
We are already encouraged to take at least a little damage/attacks, since blocking attacks builds action points. The tactician additionally builds action points if he doesn't block attacks. If getting action points is not an incentive, I don't know what is.
But aside from that, replacing the reckless attacker feat with something new to implement the idea of making us fullfill a certain role they see for us (BAD idea at this stage) comes along with problems, here just (another) one:
The higher the gearscore of your party, the less tanking is required and the lower is your chance as a GF to get a slot in the party, because the stronger parties control and dps everything down very fast. The proposed Reckless Attacker feat that is at the preview server makes this situation even worse, and this is why:
Since the mobs die fast and painless in stronger parties, you will take less damage and thus the new reckless attacker feat would proc less. Sometimes not a single mob of a pack gets the opportunity to attack at all, so the new reckless attacker wouldn't give you a single stack. This means that parties of higher gearscore that already are not interested in bringing tanking abilities to the party now have even less interest in taking a GF since your dps is lower when running with them.
With the reckless attacker feat of the live server the situation is vice versa - You still have a low chance to get invited to stronger parties but at least you deal more damage in these parties since your guard meter doesn't deplete as much with them. And that means your chance to get invited by a stronger party is a little less low.
If we don't switch to the stamina-guard we can keep our old reckless attacker feat which synergizes well with stronger parties. That makes us more desirable for these stronger parties, and increases our chance to get an invite from them. Stop the stamina-guard!
The fact that ET now is capped at 20 we will get the most aggro and sustain from it compared to a cw who does more dps since singularity only does 8 which is what our current ET is on live. If you are worried about threat in mod 4 please know that ET having a higher mob count also means more dps for us in pve which means alot more threat than what we can generate. ET will become the number one encounter in pve hands down for large groups of mobs.
I swear our glowing finger power will save us in pve!
i wouldnt worry to much about being able to hold threat and mobs on you if you read the first page you would understand why here i will show you
Mark: Now causes you to deal 200% (up from 100%) additional threat on Marked targets.
Mark: Marked targets now grant combat advantage to the Guardian's Allies.
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Enhanced Mark: Now grants 75% bonus threat per rank (up from 33%).
Knight's Valor: Now transfer's 200% (up from 50%) of the threat allies deal to you
Iron Warrior: Base threat bonus increased to 200% (up from 150%).
Iron Warrior: This power now properly increases threat generation.
lol so every 15s(that if you have no recovery or the 10% cooldown feat) you should be spamming like crazy and if you cant hold mobs on you with this then your doing something wrong especially if you have enhanced mark and are spamming enforced threat mobs will be all over you like ants on sugar.
now for all of you complaining to revert to old block, you guys are crazy and i was a big advocate of keeping it the same until the recent update on the time it takes to deplete. old block was horrid compared to the new one why would anyone want to move slow making it easier for players in pvp to get behind you, have your shield eaten up by small hits and dots in a matter of a second and still get cc'ed through it.
new block allows us to move faster making the gameplay better and more versatile, we can not be cc'ed by anything while guarding(as long as it is frontward), if oyu spec right and have even a decent amount of stamina gain you can keep block up for quite some time. to all you q.qr's out there your just upset because conquer doesnt work how it used to and guess what the new capstone is actually better but your all complaining because you have failed to realise it isnt fixed yet as in it is showing the 5 stacks but we are only benefit form 1 of them the crit part is fine when it's fixed you will see.
secondly our block currently is bugged or not working as intended because players/mobs can mitigate it which is not WAI or in anycase should never work like that wait for the fix crush said he is working on it, im looking forward and hope to see how it plays out
and for those KC users stop trolling pugs who do you kc wizards and dc's thats about it try KC'ng even a decent geared TR or GWF and you will die so fast before you can even say what happened it's a terrible skill to use in pvp and a great skill in pve and i guarentee if im in a match against you even my protector GF will beat your KC lung bull rotation.
also bump again before it gets lost in the flow of pages of people complaining about Knights challenge because this is important and needs to be fixed asap this hsould not happen with our shift mechanic as in it should be working on a different DR set that cant be mitigated.
Also a lot of GF's first strike is with lunging strike, without getting hit five times before attacking the mob you are severely handicapped, half power as current on live and no +25% damage increase.
Now there are plenty of power to damage formulas floating around on the web so may I suggest you taking the time to look one up and use it. Once you do that, you will see this is a severe nerf to the conq tree.
I could easily reason similarly against the stamina-guard the same way by comparing it to a buffed version of the guard/block mechanic at the live server (for example giving the guard/block at the live server 20 times the guard meter pool it currently has). Would that be fair? No, certainly not. It would be just as unfair as making a comparison with the current stamina-guard which, as you pointed out, is currently bugged. The point is this: both kind of block/guard mechanics can be easily buffed so that they outperform the other one. Thus the question here is: If both, the current and the stamina-guard get buffed so that they are at a level playing field, which one of the two do you favor?
I have brought up many reasons which speak against the stamina-guard because of HOW it works in this thread, I encourage you to look at it.
Please take a look at post #555 at page 56 in this thread and look at the numbers. But again, this is a similiar issue like the two guard/block mechanics: Compare both if they are at a level playing field. Don't favor one of them because it is (currently) more effective, instead look at HOW it works.
What makes you think that the current guard/block at the live server couldn't get an equal speed buff? However, the reduced speed isn't too bad, it functions as a trade off for raising the shield, and makes us ponder wether we realy want to activate it. By the way, looking at my GF sidestepping at the preview server while blocking just makes me think: "Oh crab!"
One last thing: The main part of this game is PvE, not PvP. This overhaul of our class is driven by PvP related demands. The results are a change in the core nature of our class more than one year after open beta has ended, negative fallout effects that come along this overhaul (they have been specified in this thread by different players), and several new bugs which are currently only partially known.
I understand the wish of PvP players for a better experience, but I can't go along with this overhaul knowing the heavy negative aspects of it. To be constructive, I tried to come up with ideas to help out the PvP focused players (who seem to me particularly concerned with high numbers of small attacks impacting in a short time span) while still keeping the old guard/block mechanism and the old reckless attacker feat. For those who are interested: Take a look at post #533 at page 54 in this thread.
I'm not sure how many of you guys played with the old Stalwart in PVP before it got nerfed to oblivion. But you basically ran onto two, wore hits for about 1 second, got all your stacks then destroyed people. 5 stacks will take less than 2 seconds to get up, no problem.
I never understand why people have such a hard time understanding the old capstone... If you have 10k power, only HALF of that power is from the capstone... 10k power = about 59% damage boost, again HALF of which (28.5%) is from the capstone... So the effect to a 10k power GF is the +25% dmg boost is only about 3% less tooltip damage than the old RA... BUT to compensate you get 10% crit too... Which if you have a base of 75% crit severity means a 7.5% dps boost.
A net GAIN of about 3%.
Also as its been highlighted here many times, not only do our powers have higher caps like ET they cause more threat AND some even "hard taunt" too. Meaning it will be VERY easy to get and maintain 5stacks.
The only players that may see a small decrease in performance are PVE power stacked GFs who significantly putgear content and thus dont have to block. Take a proper GS GF into CN and he will HAVE to block and will lose RA bonus... Ontop of that his old RA bonus probably wasnt a 10kpower score so its that much worse for him....
For everyone else this opens more gear choices more stat choices more play styles and all around a buff the class needed!
Sentinel were keeping the original unstoppable DR, so I don't know how that will change anything (heck, they currently get 50-100% DR because they didn't adjust the 5x unstoppable DR capstone to adjust for the 10-20% amount).
ayroux, again guy you are looking at it strictly from the PvP aspect of the game, that's cool that's where you gain your enjoyment from.
I do understand the old capstone, completely understand it that is why I am fighting so hard to keep it. It amounts to more then a 3% loss, plus having to get smacked 5 times before you gain your damage potential back that you had more of, in the old capstone. It is like we are going backwards to the old stalwart set instead of going forward.
Plus guy come on, crit, really on a GF, I would never doubt you and be all for it on a rouge where crit is his life and he can generate up to and above +50% crit, but on a GF. We cannot generate the crit values a rouge can, so therefore crit is a pleasant surprise when it happens, its a variable so not to be counted on. Why waste a valuable weapon slot on a vorpal when a PF or Ter gives a constant damage increase, which if added up over time is equal to or greater to a vorp with the low crit % we as GF's have. I am at over 2k crit and the crit % is still low, its almost comical. Yes it is sweet when a crit occurs but again it is a variable none constant figure.
Look at post #586 I made suggestions to help the entire class, not just the Pve side but also to help the PvP side.
10/char
Greater Plague Fire - With our attack speed, encounters and everything it is VERY difficult to keep all three stacks on. Granted in PVE you can manage to pull it off, but I recommend Terror over this for damage purposes, unless you are trying to get rampaging madness, in which GPF is good, but you'd get more damage out of a lightning or something along those lines as well as the stacks.
Perfect Vorpal - I agree the crit chance is low... BUT - It is not difficult to get a 20-22% chance to crit, add 10% to that, and we are freaking talking! 30% has seemed to be the magic number for me, add a rogue to that, and we are talking mid to upper 30's crit chance on a guardian....
We CRUSH things when we crit, we out DPS GWF's mod 4 as is, imagine after the 20% damage boost lol. I promise a GF will out DPS a GWF in Mod 4. If he is destroyer he won't take any hits and will die and still not hit that hard, if he is sent he'll be tanky but his damage is AWFUL! like IBS crits for 3-4k lol, it is hilarious.
Don't give up on vorpal. I use it in PVP because the burst is the way to go, sort of like the old fashioned runescape 3 hit if anyone used to play runescape classic. We don't have the defense to wear things down, so burst is our best shot. In PVE of course, it is a bit different. with the new threat system keeping those 5 stacks up will be extremely easy
Have beaten all but 1 GWF, and he was in fact in a sentinel and it was a long drawn out fight and he got me in the end. 1v1 in pvp I say yes, we have more defense than a destroyer and can put out better numbers than do as well. The kicker is with their unstoppable stacks, that is there big damage boost right? Well we can still get a big hit on them and easily block all this damage since we move so much faster now ESPECIALLY when block gets fixed. In PVE we can hold better Aggro and take more Damage than a GWF, as well as control mobs much better than either gwf with enforced and frontline, the mobs are all over you.
The old Destroyer is dead. It always did that damage, no one wanted to be squishy. Mod 4 = no more destroyer tanks. They can still hit hard, sure. But we can hit hard too. AND we can take more damage than they can over longer periods of time. For once a destroyers unstoppable wears off, and the T1 set gets nerfed (which healed them) - they are just gonna die man. I promise, we are freaking back as a good class. And once our 20% damage bonus is back, and the block is no longer defuffable DR, we are going to decimate.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Fres, exactly that's why I went terror, plus did you know chaotic damage bypasses armor and goes straight against hp, combined with 2.5k a/p you basically bypass all reflect and most def and deal massive damage.
Vorpal > GPF in PVP - UNLESS you wants stacks of madness, or are running a reflect briartwine debuf build.
I still think Vorpal is pretty king, but Perfect Terror is not a waste of time in PVP either, so yeah I'll agree with you it is pretty good. Especially since it stacks with Greater Plaguefires.