The only thing that made GWFs insanely OP (in pve) is the ability to stack stupid amounts of LS really, so if the gist of dumbing down the unstoppable was to actually make us have to work at surviving, then reducing the LS affect on us, would be substantial enough...
Or they could do a trade off IE more LS = less % to unstoppable buffered HP.
Lifesteal is not the issue. Thats an indirect issue of something as a result of something else. And thats the prone chains.
With prones not respecting CC resist and tenacity. Any class that gets the same bit of life steal, that can prone chain will do the exact same thing. Anyclass can utilize this.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
The only thing that made GWFs insanely OP (in pve) is the ability to stack stupid amounts of LS really, so if the gist of dumbing down the unstoppable was to actually make us have to work at surviving, then reducing the LS affect on us, would be substantial enough...
Or they could do a trade off IE more LS = less % to unstoppable buffered HP.
What the **** am I reading? Do you realize that EVERY CLASS can have the same amount of life steal?
GWF can get 40% DR from defense and 20% from tenacity. With a 10% unstoppable for destroyer that puts them at 70% DR.
The cap is 80%. Why is having 10% less DR the end of the world?
The 80% cap is applied after Resistance Ignored was added. In your example current unstoppable GWFs can have 110% DR. This is a huge difference. An opponent needs to have RI of more than 30% to bring the GWF below 80% DR.
The 80% cap is applied after Resistance Ignored was added. In your example current unstoppable GWFs can have 110% DR. This is a huge difference. An opponent needs to have RI of more than 30% to bring the GWF below 80% DR.
u forgot every1 uses plague fire which already bring down gwf DR too fast
You mean other classes that have self heals, and ranged attacks and ways to root/hold enemies?
You can't kill things with a GWF at range, or while running around. At some point you actually do have to facetank some stuff, and that's what being part defender is - it means soaking some damage.
No one is asking for the GWF to be the king of all tanks, but it needs to be survivable and needs to be able to handle the thick of the fight or the class will go back to it's state at launch where it was awful.
No amount of nerfing the GWF is going to fix the GF - the GF suffers from having a "Tank" identity in a game environment that has zero use for actual tanking due to encounter design.
The only things this game's content requires are:
> Gear Score
> Ability to do damage or control mobs or be a force multiplier (buffs/debuffs)
> Not die alot
This is the complete truth. These changes to GWF are going to do nothing to make the GF more viable in PvE. A new round of dungeons that require a GF to hold on to agro is the only thing outside of vastly augmenting the GF's DPS that will do that.
1)Destroyers: They have too much in the way of feat dependent damage. Focused destroyer and destroyer's Purpose give a crazy amount of damage to Destroyers. The way that PVP GWF's get stacks of Destroyer's purpose up is by using a plaguefire which gives them the stacks in a couple of swings giving them major damage bonus. You could simply change these dynamics by making it difficult to get these stacks, or change the bonus percentages, rather than allowing them to build so quickly and hit so hard. Thus you nerf the damage bonus against classes that are difficult to hit. If you're going to nerf Unstoppable for Destroyers be more conservative, give them a 20-40% damage resistance rather than completely making unstoppable a useless gesture. For all trees of GWF's don't get rid of all the prones or you break the ability of their heavy hitting damage dealing encounter IBS. Also you could simply decrease the feat relentless battle fury which is what makes roar and takedown (2 rather bad PVE encounters I might add) spammable ability.
.
The best and most obvious way to fix Destroyers purpose is to cause it not to obtain stacks off the plague fire enchant specifically, no need to go jacking the percentages up on everything else.
Lifesteal is not the issue. Thats an indirect issue of something as a result of something else. And thats the prone chains.
With prones not respecting CC resist and tenacity. Any class that gets the same bit of life steal, that can prone chain will do the exact same thing. Anyclass can utilize this.
Did you notice the brackets with PVE? please stop being so tunnel vision with PvP issues..
What the **** am I reading? Do you realize that EVERY CLASS can have the same amount of life steal?
Yes, imo LS is a lame addition to the game all across the board, and should be a small mitigation, not an all purpose heal.
But a DPS class gets better results with stacked amount, than a DPH class. I have 875 LS and can play just fine, with timing of my unstoppable, potions, and even if a cleric is in group a huge bonus. When I switch gears (i have secondary gears) with over 2k lifesteal, and no cleric, potions, hell barely unstoppable needed. I can heal from 5% to 100% in one encounter, or within a few swipes of at-will....
I am posting here instead of the "official" feedback thread as I haven't done previews to test all situations and my GWF is an alt who does not hold my main focus and as such my sense of things would be less than one who has the GWF as their main. With that said I can instantly foresee problems with the range of variation that would exist with the class if put live along the current mindset that is being approached.
There is too much variation within the class depending upon the paragon/feet path taken. One direction would net 'extreme' dps variation from the other at a significantly reduced amount of survivability. The other direction would be much superior survivability at a drastic reduction in dps. Consider that the matchmaker does not decide whether the class is a damage build or a tank build and you will start to see my concerns (nobody will ever pursue a tank gwf as their first choice when a tank is what is sought after -- assuming they make tanks relevant that is). If/when another more pure tank class is introduced you are going to expand upon the problems. The GWF in its mian roll (dps and add tank) is likely more critical to have a reduced degree of variation in its various paths.
Anyway this is just from the perspective of someone who plays a GWF alt. I will leave the recommendations for the variation in damage/tanking capabilities to the GWF that have them as their mains and better understand the requirements. To me, though, something within 25% sounds closer to correct but what I see now seems to be more like 90% (which would suggest two totally different classes and not a different spec of a class).
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
"from 5% to 100%"??? what kind of damage you just do to get a 100% LS hit? 60k with IBS? which is your power amount? 13ks?
It's not something crazy. If you have endless, which allow you to get your ls x3 so let's say 30% for a single hit instead of 10%, when you hit 80k with IBS, you will be healed by 24k and that is the usual amount of HP for a mid range GS GWF.
I've got 120k +/- in healing using IBS doing DK i.e which is 260k crit (15%ls*3=45%) = 117k exactly, in one single encounter. However, it is a stupid and unnecessary overhealing.
After reading through all 22 pages of comments, I would like to add my own two cents.
First, and very importantly, I am ONLY commenting from a PvE perspective; I never ever play PvP.
I am a very casual player. My gear score is only 11.8K, and frankly I don't really care. I play to have FUN. I like to role play, and my GWF Destroyer is my Avatar. I am 71 years old, and playing my GWF is like being young, and strong, and vital again. That is what I love about this game
I have soloed each of the Dread Ring dungeons, as well as Gnarlroot, WF, and Cela in Sharandar, and I love the feeling of strength and vitality of the GWF Destroyer. When I went on to the Preview server, I soloed each of those dungeons again, to test the proposed changes to Unstoppable. What I found, was that while I was able to solo them, I spent a lot more time sprinting in and out of combat, gobbling down potions, and in some cases, running away to regain my health. I was clearly weaker, not unlike what it means to get older, a feeling I know only too well. It was still fun, but no longer FUN. Please, if you feel compelled to make changes to Unstoppable, heed the suggestion of so many other posters, and make it 15-30% DR, not the 5-10% DR proposed.
Secondly, with regards to the 30% nerf to Takedown damage, my question is WHY? While it is not a big deal in PvE because the Prone portion is still there, I don't understand what a 30% reduction really buys you.
Lastly, I would remind you that you are ultimately in the business of making money, and not let the PvP tail wag the PvE dog.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited June 2014
Don't know why, but even with my companion healer my level 46 destroyer always has to be crippled to get unstoppable off just to survive.
If I did the bosses on the pirate skyhold with 10% unstoppable DR, I'd probably get my butt handed to me unless I dance like a mad chicken and chug potions. Low level GWFs will be even more pathetic in dungeons.
Went 3 pages back and saw nothing but " GWF is OP " on one post and " GWF is just as it should be " on the next.
You realize what is actually happening? By removing prones they make it so lazy and inexperienced RANGED players can now comfortably fight a GWF in MELEE without the fear of being dropped in the dirt. Smart CWs are killing melee classes on LIVE right now from RANGE. Stupid CW come to the node, into MELEE range and die on LIVE.
Lets just make NVW another Champions Online, right devs? Everyone should tank, everyone should heal, everyone should have DR buffs and do massive aoe damage... everyone should perform the same and we'll call it BALANCE ! CO is so boring for exactly that reason
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
So a great weapon fighter should be able to out tank the real tanks guardian fighters? rofl
I do not see any reference to Guardian fighters in the comment you have just quoted. Please restrict your comments to GWF update feedback here and move your GF comments elsewhere.
Moderators: Please feel free to remove this post once the thread has been cleansed. TY.
With all do fairness, I hope that the changes to the GWF don't get put in place. Firstly, by nerfing Unstoppable and prone ability is taking away what survivability GWF has in countering the permanent stealth TR. One of my best examples of this is the multiple times that I am 1v1 a permanent stealth TR on a node. In most cases the TR I am going up against has extremely high regen, and cycles Stealth Strike, Bait & Switch, ITC "Impossible to Catch", and while they are invulnerable using Duelist Fury to stack bleeding bonus.
In most cases when you encounter this type of TR, neutralizing them depends on pure luck, how much damage you can resist with Unstoppable, and timing Takedown and Frontline Surge that in the brief seconds that the TR is out of stealth and ITC that you can prone them and stack damage.
Now I am completely fine with Takedown and Frontline Surge only stunning instead of prone, but by drastically decreasing the damage resist, you are not cutting the GWF's survivability over a 50% and enabling the permanent stealth TR to assume an almost GOD-mode and allowing them to make short work of GWF's. Please reconsider adjusting Unstoppable or redesign with the TR stealth, because if you make changes to the GWF's defense without changing TR's powers, the GWF will become a broken and useless class when fighting these type of threats.
This nerfs are just way out of line, you dont tone it down a bit (from a pvp perspective) with these changes the GWF is just as dead as disco! Went on testserver and tested to fight vs a semidecent HR. He killed me under 45 sec every time, and i tried to go "tanky" with Sentinel, and pure dmg as a destroyer, heck i even tried the good ol SM. NOTHING worked, esp the nerf to unstopable, yes we go red and BIG, and CC immune, but thats it. Stop this madness! Roar needed a fix no doubt, but takedown now stuns and in pvp u dont even have time to take advantage of this cus the stun is more or less useless in pvp. Tone the destroyers tree down a bit, and now that roar is fixed ppl will have FS to use instead with 20sec ish cd, and just by this a lot will change! No need to bash it and make the class totaly useless.
This nerfs are just way out of line, you dont tone it down a bit (from a pvp perspective) with these changes the GWF is just as dead as disco! Went on testserver and tested to fight vs a semidecent HR. He killed me under 45 sec every time, and i tried to go "tanky" with Sentinel, and pure dmg as a destroyer, heck i even tried the good ol SM. NOTHING worked, esp the nerf to unstopable, yes we go red and BIG, and CC immune, but thats it. Stop this madness! Roar needed a fix no doubt, but takedown now stuns and in pvp u dont even have time to take advantage of this cus the stun is more or less useless in pvp. Tone the destroyers tree down a bit, and now that roar is fixed ppl will have FS to use instead with 20sec ish cd, and just by this a lot will change! No need to bash it and make the class totaly useless.
People have been saying this for a LONG time.
Really the big issues in PVP were:
1) Roar bug -> Stunning and NOW (mod 3) with alot shorter CD.
2) Unstoppable Recovery -> Healed double what its supposed to.
3) Destroyers Purpose Stacks -> Adding (IMO) WAY too much damage in pvp - should be a PVE feat only. Dropping this to say 5% to proc off any attack removes it from pvp - to compensate IMO increase duration of each stack would be nice for PVE purposes.
If you JUST adjusted those three things, I think the class would be pretty fair IMO.
Damage would be cut in PVP by about 40% from removing Destroyers Purpose.
Tankiness would be reduced from Unstoppable Recovery fix AND Roar fix (stunning for 2 seconds every 8 seconds adds ALOT of tankiness, trust me).
This is ALL the changes needed. GWFs on LIVE are SO close to being a good "balance" its just minor changes that ARE needed, but dont bring the nerf hammer to the class, its really going to frustrate alot of people.
This nerfs are just way out of line, you dont tone it down a bit (from a pvp perspective) with these changes the GWF is just as dead as disco! Went on testserver and tested to fight vs a semidecent HR. He killed me under 45 sec every time, and i tried to go "tanky" with Sentinel, and pure dmg as a destroyer, heck i even tried the good ol SM. NOTHING worked, esp the nerf to unstopable, yes we go red and BIG, and CC immune, but thats it. Stop this madness! Roar needed a fix no doubt, but takedown now stuns and in pvp u dont even have time to take advantage of this cus the stun is more or less useless in pvp. Tone the destroyers tree down a bit, and now that roar is fixed ppl will have FS to use instead with 20sec ish cd, and just by this a lot will change! No need to bash it and make the class totaly useless.
People have been saying this for a LONG time.
Really the big issues in PVP were:
1) Roar bug -> Stunning and NOW (mod 3) with alot shorter CD.
2) Unstoppable Recovery -> Healed double what its supposed to.
3) Destroyers Purpose Stacks -> Adding (IMO) WAY too much damage in pvp - should be a PVE feat only. Dropping this to say 5% to proc off any attack removes it from pvp - to compensate IMO increase duration of each stack would be nice for PVE purposes.
If you JUST adjusted those three things, I think the class would be pretty fair IMO.
Damage would be cut in PVP by about 40% from removing Destroyers Purpose.
Tankiness would be reduced from Unstoppable Recovery fix AND Roar fix (stunning for 2 seconds every 8 seconds adds ALOT of tankiness, trust me).
This is ALL the changes needed. GWFs on LIVE are SO close to being a good "balance" its just minor changes that ARE needed, but dont bring the nerf hammer to the class, its really going to frustrate alot of people.
Comments
Lifesteal is not the issue. Thats an indirect issue of something as a result of something else. And thats the prone chains.
With prones not respecting CC resist and tenacity. Any class that gets the same bit of life steal, that can prone chain will do the exact same thing. Anyclass can utilize this.
The 80% cap is applied after Resistance Ignored was added. In your example current unstoppable GWFs can have 110% DR. This is a huge difference. An opponent needs to have RI of more than 30% to bring the GWF below 80% DR.
This is the complete truth. These changes to GWF are going to do nothing to make the GF more viable in PvE. A new round of dungeons that require a GF to hold on to agro is the only thing outside of vastly augmenting the GF's DPS that will do that.
The best and most obvious way to fix Destroyers purpose is to cause it not to obtain stacks off the plague fire enchant specifically, no need to go jacking the percentages up on everything else.
Did you notice the brackets with PVE? please stop being so tunnel vision with PvP issues..
Yes, imo LS is a lame addition to the game all across the board, and should be a small mitigation, not an all purpose heal.
But a DPS class gets better results with stacked amount, than a DPH class. I have 875 LS and can play just fine, with timing of my unstoppable, potions, and even if a cleric is in group a huge bonus. When I switch gears (i have secondary gears) with over 2k lifesteal, and no cleric, potions, hell barely unstoppable needed. I can heal from 5% to 100% in one encounter, or within a few swipes of at-will....
You ever hit a group of mobs with IBS? I can hit a group with wicked strike one time and get a full bar of HP myself.
There is too much variation within the class depending upon the paragon/feet path taken. One direction would net 'extreme' dps variation from the other at a significantly reduced amount of survivability. The other direction would be much superior survivability at a drastic reduction in dps. Consider that the matchmaker does not decide whether the class is a damage build or a tank build and you will start to see my concerns (nobody will ever pursue a tank gwf as their first choice when a tank is what is sought after -- assuming they make tanks relevant that is). If/when another more pure tank class is introduced you are going to expand upon the problems. The GWF in its mian roll (dps and add tank) is likely more critical to have a reduced degree of variation in its various paths.
Anyway this is just from the perspective of someone who plays a GWF alt. I will leave the recommendations for the variation in damage/tanking capabilities to the GWF that have them as their mains and better understand the requirements. To me, though, something within 25% sounds closer to correct but what I see now seems to be more like 90% (which would suggest two totally different classes and not a different spec of a class).
Im sorry. But Im gonna have to call this a blantant lie.
This is impossible even if you have low max HP.
It's not something crazy. If you have endless, which allow you to get your ls x3 so let's say 30% for a single hit instead of 10%, when you hit 80k with IBS, you will be healed by 24k and that is the usual amount of HP for a mid range GS GWF.
I've got 120k +/- in healing using IBS doing DK i.e which is 260k crit (15%ls*3=45%) = 117k exactly, in one single encounter. However, it is a stupid and unnecessary overhealing.
You can heal to full with Frontline Surge easily. Got a 78K heal once in a heroic encounter, 30K is nothing uncommon even without debuffs.
First, and very importantly, I am ONLY commenting from a PvE perspective; I never ever play PvP.
I am a very casual player. My gear score is only 11.8K, and frankly I don't really care. I play to have FUN. I like to role play, and my GWF Destroyer is my Avatar. I am 71 years old, and playing my GWF is like being young, and strong, and vital again. That is what I love about this game
I have soloed each of the Dread Ring dungeons, as well as Gnarlroot, WF, and Cela in Sharandar, and I love the feeling of strength and vitality of the GWF Destroyer. When I went on to the Preview server, I soloed each of those dungeons again, to test the proposed changes to Unstoppable. What I found, was that while I was able to solo them, I spent a lot more time sprinting in and out of combat, gobbling down potions, and in some cases, running away to regain my health. I was clearly weaker, not unlike what it means to get older, a feeling I know only too well. It was still fun, but no longer FUN. Please, if you feel compelled to make changes to Unstoppable, heed the suggestion of so many other posters, and make it 15-30% DR, not the 5-10% DR proposed.
Secondly, with regards to the 30% nerf to Takedown damage, my question is WHY? While it is not a big deal in PvE because the Prone portion is still there, I don't understand what a 30% reduction really buys you.
Lastly, I would remind you that you are ultimately in the business of making money, and not let the PvP tail wag the PvE dog.
If I did the bosses on the pirate skyhold with 10% unstoppable DR, I'd probably get my butt handed to me unless I dance like a mad chicken and chug potions. Low level GWFs will be even more pathetic in dungeons.
So a great weapon fighter should be able to out tank the real tanks guardian fighters? rofl
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
You realize what is actually happening? By removing prones they make it so lazy and inexperienced RANGED players can now comfortably fight a GWF in MELEE without the fear of being dropped in the dirt. Smart CWs are killing melee classes on LIVE right now from RANGE. Stupid CW come to the node, into MELEE range and die on LIVE.
Lets just make NVW another Champions Online, right devs? Everyone should tank, everyone should heal, everyone should have DR buffs and do massive aoe damage... everyone should perform the same and we'll call it BALANCE ! CO is so boring for exactly that reason
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Moderators: Please feel free to remove this post once the thread has been cleansed. TY.
In most cases when you encounter this type of TR, neutralizing them depends on pure luck, how much damage you can resist with Unstoppable, and timing Takedown and Frontline Surge that in the brief seconds that the TR is out of stealth and ITC that you can prone them and stack damage.
Now I am completely fine with Takedown and Frontline Surge only stunning instead of prone, but by drastically decreasing the damage resist, you are not cutting the GWF's survivability over a 50% and enabling the permanent stealth TR to assume an almost GOD-mode and allowing them to make short work of GWF's. Please reconsider adjusting Unstoppable or redesign with the TR stealth, because if you make changes to the GWF's defense without changing TR's powers, the GWF will become a broken and useless class when fighting these type of threats.
People have been saying this for a LONG time.
Really the big issues in PVP were:
1) Roar bug -> Stunning and NOW (mod 3) with alot shorter CD.
2) Unstoppable Recovery -> Healed double what its supposed to.
3) Destroyers Purpose Stacks -> Adding (IMO) WAY too much damage in pvp - should be a PVE feat only. Dropping this to say 5% to proc off any attack removes it from pvp - to compensate IMO increase duration of each stack would be nice for PVE purposes.
If you JUST adjusted those three things, I think the class would be pretty fair IMO.
Damage would be cut in PVP by about 40% from removing Destroyers Purpose.
Tankiness would be reduced from Unstoppable Recovery fix AND Roar fix (stunning for 2 seconds every 8 seconds adds ALOT of tankiness, trust me).
This is ALL the changes needed. GWFs on LIVE are SO close to being a good "balance" its just minor changes that ARE needed, but dont bring the nerf hammer to the class, its really going to frustrate alot of people.
People have been saying this for a LONG time.
Really the big issues in PVP were:
1) Roar bug -> Stunning and NOW (mod 3) with alot shorter CD.
2) Unstoppable Recovery -> Healed double what its supposed to.
3) Destroyers Purpose Stacks -> Adding (IMO) WAY too much damage in pvp - should be a PVE feat only. Dropping this to say 5% to proc off any attack removes it from pvp - to compensate IMO increase duration of each stack would be nice for PVE purposes.
If you JUST adjusted those three things, I think the class would be pretty fair IMO.
Damage would be cut in PVP by about 40% from removing Destroyers Purpose.
Tankiness would be reduced from Unstoppable Recovery fix AND Roar fix (stunning for 2 seconds every 8 seconds adds ALOT of tankiness, trust me).
This is ALL the changes needed. GWFs on LIVE are SO close to being a good "balance" its just minor changes that ARE needed, but dont bring the nerf hammer to the class, its really going to frustrate alot of people.