Use Daring shout and u have over 50 DR if mobs are strong, u guys need to adapt to new rotations and be more carefull than before,
Thanks for this! Obviously Roar won't have its same cheese effect of rooting people (which I used like nearly everyone else) and the Unstoppable change to DR makes the GWF a little bit squishy. Good replacement from what I see.
I don't see any damage change for the GWF except for Takedown (a single target power that makes up a minimal part of total damage done in a play session).
I believe there are no actual complaints about GWF being able to dish out a lot of DPS (he is a striker after all), the main problem is he's able to do DPS while also out-tanking even the GF...
That's right, I was simply referring to previous posts that have suggested a change in damage for the GWF and I believe he is just fine where he is right now.
That's right, I was simply referring to previous posts that have suggested a change in damage for the GWF and I believe he is just fine where he is right now.
So people are only interested in PvP these days? With the implementation of these patchnotes the GWF will be dead in PvE!
He won't survive any AoEs because of no damage resistance trough determination. That means he has to dodge red, which leads to no determination.
If this goes live, DC is the only viable class in Neverwinters PvE!
Great Weapon Fighters have been dominating in PvP and we wanted to take this opportunity to dial them back a little bit
I thought I would also take the time since this thread was "cleansed" to point out that the DEVs announced the REASON for the changes are as above. So when people are saying this balance was for PVE purposes, I would argue you are wrong.
Chris stated here GWFs are too strong in PVP which is the real for the "dial back" - however in my post above, and previous ones, I think this was less of a dial back and more of a "massive nerf".
If you truly want to dial them back, I have (above and before) detailed out WHY GWFs are powerful in PVP and also exactly how to fix them so they are balanced.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
I thought I would also take the time since this thread was "cleansed" to point out that the DEVs announced the REASON for the changes are as above. So when people are saying this balance was for PVE purposes, I would argue you are wrong.
Chris stated here GWFs are too strong in PVP which is the real for the "dial back" - however in my post above, and previous ones, I think this was less of a dial back and more of a "massive nerf".
If you truly want to dial them back, I have (above and before) detailed out WHY GWFs are powerful in PVP and also exactly how to fix them so they are balanced.
The thing is if even 1 DEV look on Leaderboard they see GWF is not dominating soo much first page (11)HR second (5)TR the third is (4)GWF.
And this is True.
Having played the GWF for quite a while and noting the new changes on the preview shard I have some feedback regarding the changes/nerfs coming to this class:
1) Destroyer: By taking away all the damage/prones in the Vanguard path and nerfing unstoppable to 5-10% damage reduction you have made this class unable to survive for more than a few seconds. With no dodges/shield/shift/teleports we are a prime target. Unstoppable was the only thing that kept us alive. If you dial the damage resistance down this much Destroyers will die to any ranged class and perhaps melee classes before they have the ability to do damage. Not only that but if GWF's can't prone they will almost never land IBS appropriately. It will be the ultimate in frustration and ultimately kill this path/tree for end game PVP. The only way to make this tree viable is to leave the damage and take away the tankiness somewhat. If you nerf both, Destroyer is destroyed.
2)Sentinel: While leaving the sentinel tree basically intact with the 25-50% unstoppable damage reduction, you completely took away their ability to do any meaningful damage. With the changes to Power and the high hit point/high defense/high deflection many other classes have at end game they will never kill anything. Couple this with the crippling changes to threatening rush for vanguards in general (our only true gap closer) and our inability to prone and you have made sentinels threadbare punching bags.
All this said, I'm fully on board with the idea that GWF's need to be nerfed. I've said it since the introduction of Mod 3. Having played a GWF for a very long time as my main I hated it when everyone rolled a GWF during this mod because they became so OP. I want my class back, and I'm tired of being called a "**** OP class". So here are some possible ways to change the GWF dynamic.
1)Destroyers: They have too much in the way of feat dependent damage. Focused destroyer and destroyer's Purpose give a crazy amount of damage to Destroyers. The way that PVP GWF's get stacks of Destroyer's purpose up is by using a plaguefire which gives them the stacks in a couple of swings giving them major damage bonus. You could simply change these dynamics by making it difficult to get these stacks, or change the bonus percentages, rather than allowing them to build so quickly and hit so hard. Thus you nerf the damage bonus against classes that are difficult to hit. If you're going to nerf Unstoppable for Destroyers be more conservative, give them a 20-40% damage resistance rather than completely making unstoppable a useless gesture. For all trees of GWF's don't get rid of all the prones or you break the ability of their heavy hitting damage dealing encounter IBS. Also you could simply decrease the feat relentless battle fury which is what makes roar and takedown (2 rather bad PVE encounters I might add) spammable ability.
2)Sentinels: Give them either more damage resistance/CC immunity or more control if you are going to nerf their damage this badly. If you don't then they will simply run around the node until they die unable to effectively counter any class. You could allow Sentinels to use restoring strike without healing depression which would give them survivablilty so they can maintain some relevance.
Some other suggestions: If you are going to give threatening rush usable charges then have it function like lunging strike closing massive distances accurately (not as much damage obviously as lunging strike), this would make it viable.
If you are looking to go the stun route instead of prones, give GWF's at least one prone to wind up for the IBS to keep it viable.
If you are trying to Push (as I suspect) GWF's away from vanguard then give us viable gap closers with the swordmaster path. Flourish is fine and we get to keep IBS but Punishing charge as a gap closer leaves something to be desired as you often end up quite a distance from the target making it a poor choice. Lastly I would ask, rather kindly, please do not do what you have done to TR's or GF's in the past which is make sweeping changes (even more potentially to the GWF's with changing two of their base class abilities... sprint and unstoppable) to correct an obvious OP problem. You will only cause more grief and crying. Small changes over time, fixing OP problems with a sculpting tool instead of a nerf hammer, that's how classes evolve. Sweeping changes cause major upheaval and make class balancing even more difficult as the over-correction often swings the class into the under-powered sphere. My biggest fear is that I will log into mod 4 and feel like I'm playing a foreign class. One that doesn't function like anything prior to that mod. Like I picked one class and got the bait and switch for some other alien class. Please don't make that happen.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Lastly I would ask, rather kindly, please do not do what you have done to TR's or GF's in the past which is make sweeping changes (even more potentially to the GWF's with changing two of their base class abilities... sprint and unstoppable) to correct an obvious OP problem. You will only cause more grief and crying. Small changes over time, fixing OP problems with a sculpting tool instead of a nerf hammer, that's how classes evolve. Sweeping changes cause major upheaval and make class balancing even more difficult as the over-correction often swings the class into the under-powered sphere. My biggest fear is that I will log into mod 4 and feel like I'm playing a foreign class. One that doesn't function like anything prior to that mod. Like I picked one class and got the bait and switch for some other alien class. Please don't make that happen.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
Couldnt have said this better myself. Cheers mate!
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
While we are at it, I think it is about time we made instigator not suck. Destroyers have damage, Sentinels have defense, Instigators have... what? There doesn't really seem to be much direction to this path, and the capstone doesn't really make sense for a class that relies on taking damage. Seems like that sort of thing you would see as a TR or HR feat. I'd love to see this tree be worth taking, as so far it has never really been a viable path.
Tested uptime on instigator capstone: 8% of combat time. pretty much no way to not take damage, and actively avoiding [all] damage is kind of counterproductive when the class feature requires you to take damage to be used.
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Being able to shift out of encounters and dailies will make reacting a much more important factor in high end PVE (...)
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
How does new Sprint work in dungeons - am I immune to boss AoE during Sprint?
And what does "interrupt all powers" means in dungeons?
I'm not a PvP player so I'm concerned about my survivability in PvE.
All these people on test running with their already endgame 18k ++ GS is the base for feedback?
THERE IS NO CONTENT FOR THAT GEAR - and they will be setting the bar for all of us players? Because mods deleted the handful of LOGICAL post stating mid to low-end tiered geared people will not survive THE DUNGEONS RELATIVE TO THEIR GEAR SCORE...
wE ARE off tanks AT THE LEAST, and are suppose to be able to facetank too some extent with no problems.... NOT run away constantly (new sprint <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> idea just caters to PvP balance)
Hey cleric, here I come to save you!!!! wait, now i must run away!!!
Hey here I come to help you GF to DPS this mob down!!! wait, red circle, I must run AWAY!!! yay atleast i won't be CCed.
Give us ranged skills if you dont want us all up in the mobs face.
100% agree. The changes are too much and in the wrong areas. There were only a FEW things causing the GWF to be the powerhouse in PVP it is now:
1) Roar stun - was for 2 seconds/AoE/Build determination
2) Unstoppable Recovery - didnt repsect healing depression - combined with Roar allowed for MASSIVE healing
3) Destroyer Purpose stacks - 25% on any attack to gain a stack - with 3 stacks was ~40% damage buff.
Those are truly the ONLY areas causing GWFs to be OP, but since people STILL want to nerf their tankiness thats where I think a slight nerf COULD work wiht 15-30% UNSTOPPABLE.
On the Topic of Black Ice gear - it fails pretty hard in comparison to Profound Gear for PVP. I was pretty disappointed.
the reason: Profound offers a fixed % deflect where as Black Ice only offers stats - so Diminishing returns end up eating a large majority of the benefits.
I honestly think the 4pc set needs a significant buff - along with the weapon proc as well to be much less of an ICD. Just my opinion and since this is hte same across all classes, it honestly would be a balance across all classes.
the problem with ROAR wasn't the stun, it was the stun lock, that made other classes to lose their Dailies.
Blace ICe gear 4/4 give the same bonus for all classes and they have Overflowed sockets, changin their bonus will result in a better set than profound, so no need for that.
-i belive ROAR is similiar to a scream that makes enemy to tremble resulting into a stun so you can give ROAR the stun that takedown has it in preview, and remove the stun locks from enemyy encounters/dailies...
-leave takedown prone, frontline prone
-fix restoring strike as it doesn't do damage,
-destroyer purpose says this "You now gain determination by dealing damage,and unstopable also increases your encounter power damage by 10%, when you deal damage while unstoppable you gain a stack of Damage Purpose (max 20.). Each Stack of damage purpose increases your damage by 2%. destroyer purpose lasts for 25 seconds" . So in other words change that to 1% , cause 10%+20% = 30% so the damage is consideratly lowered than before.
-leave other Threating rush, takedown , frontline surge as it is on live damage as it is, fix some animations from some skills
-unstopable at 15-35% , and 25-50% for sentinels.
Another thing that must be kept in mind, the changes that are made for gwf , there are other changes made on weaker classes atm
- so nerfing this class and powering other classes it will result again in another unbalanced pvp /pve runs.
and like i said, and i dont say it in a bad way for GF
giving them more MaxHP and lowering our damage iti will result in a unbalanced pvp .
but i agree with givin the GF class more hp than other classes. 50-60hp is okai, as other classes remain at 40k hp .
oh and as for Instigator paragon...
what can i say, for what can i see on IV path is that
Destroyer has Feracious heals as class feat
Sentinel has Tremple of the Fallen as class feat
but Instigator doesn't have anythin like that
oh and another thing that we don't know , from the stats we get from tenacity, we see there Armor penetration supression , maybe they want to add this stat, so it does have some logic changing lowering the defense on unstopable... but there are so many things that we don't know...and no announcements about the new relase ..
I think changes are too hard fro DEF, 25-50 is too hight but 5-10 is really too low, just do 15-30. I think the grow of the DEF with tab is the main power of this ability so you cannot destroy it
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Erm... A GWF can heal better than a DC... ever heard of lifesteal + endless consumption? I doubt it, in your case... but one can still learn. I hope. Sure if you use one of the forum specs from bs guides with fey thistle and other useless boons, then a GWF cannot heal, that is correct...
This is Feedback discussion about GWF if y want tell somthing pls pm.
Self heal is self heal not = heal so GWF cannot heal sorry to tell y. And fey thistle beat all shal boons cuz it stack first of all DP second its pure dps and heal y from ls.
All these people on test running with their already endgame 18k ++ GS is the base for feedback?
THERE IS NO CONTENT FOR THAT GEAR - and they will be setting the bar for all of us players? Because mods deleted the handful of LOGICAL post stating mid to low-end tiered geared people will not survive THE DUNGEONS RELATIVE TO THEIR GEAR SCORE...
Ive been trying to make this point for a long time, and people dont get it - and it amazes me. This is exactly why this discussion CANNOT be balanced around PVE it must be balanced through PVP with PVE in mind.
Ive seen posts saying theve gone on test and run HEs... Well congrats for outgearing them and saying you can still do them... Thats not the point.
The point is: These changes are going to make ALOT of people mad. 1) Destoryers because they cant hit anyone in PVP, cant take damage in pvp. 2) Sentinels because they deal zero damage and ALL they can do is face tank now. 3) Destroyers of APPROPRIATE gear score in PVE who now feel like they are wearing cloth armor...
I already posted last page the REASON for these changes is the DEVs felt GWFs were OP in PVP. So its PVP were talking about fixing.
Too many damage nerfs to the GWF will make them suck again in PVE. Too many DR nerfs will make them suck in BOTH PVE and PVP.
There are only a SMALL FEW reasons the GWF is OP in PVP and honestly Unstoppable is NOT one of them. Dont make these MAJOR changes with the nerf hammer - not because I want my class to be OP, but because I want the class to be FAIR. I think its silly to completely change the class around when very small minor things are what needs changing.
I also am fearful that THESE NEW changes make Instigators completely worthless.... They rely on Unstoppable too...
Ive been trying to make this point for a long time, and people dont get it - and it amazes me. This is exactly why this discussion CANNOT be balanced around PVE it must be balanced through PVP with PVE in mind.
Ive seen posts saying theve gone on test and run HEs... Well congrats for outgearing them and saying you can still do them... Thats not the point.
The point is: These changes are going to make ALOT of people mad. 1) Destoryers because they cant hit anyone in PVP, cant take damage in pvp. 2) Sentinels because they deal zero damage and ALL they can do is face tank now. 3) Destroyers of APPROPRIATE gear score in PVE who now feel like they are wearing cloth armor...
I already posted last page the REASON for these changes is the DEVs felt GWFs were OP in PVP. So its PVP were talking about fixing.
Too many damage nerfs to the GWF will make them suck again in PVE. Too many DR nerfs will make them suck in BOTH PVE and PVP.
There are only a SMALL FEW reasons the GWF is OP in PVP and honestly Unstoppable is NOT one of them. Dont make these MAJOR changes with the nerf hammer - not because I want my class to be OP, but because I want the class to be FAIR. I think its silly to completely change the class around when very small minor things are what needs changing.
I also am fearful that THESE NEW changes make Instigators completely worthless.... They rely on Unstoppable too...
I agree, only a small nip and tuck would bring GWF to PvP balanced lvl.... I am a true destroyer build, and one that don't stack LS, and use heal based boons. so with this change, i'm totally ruined in PvE. because my build already requires timing and skill to not be consistently dead.
Sure someone with my build at 17k+++ GS would own an instance geared towards 10k GS characters...and do so with no problem. But someone with my build at 12-13k GS in epic t2 dungeons, actually has to work at survival as it is... IWD as it is now, if i try soloing minors I get owned. My buffered HP from unstoppable is usually ate up in a matter of second. This is on LIVE server. I would be instant dead with new changes. And this game is SO friggin add crazy with mobs, that doing a simple minor you have to fight 5+ mobs..
So as it ALREADY is, GWFs do sacrifice survival in exchange for huge DPS.... Just we can't see this because they continue to dump OP gear/artifacts/companions into the game that has surpassed the content ten folds over.. So they assume, since we dominate PvE it must be the reason we dominate PvP too....
So as it ALREADY is, GWFs do sacrifice survival in exchange for huge DPS.... Just we can't see this because they continue to dump OP gear/artifacts/companions into the game that has surpassed the content ten folds over.. So they assume, since we dominate PvE it must be the reason we dominate PvP too....
This exactly... When the game was released getting 1200-1300 regen took considerable amount of sacrifice from a GWF standpoint. Now they have boons and artifacts that make that number possible without losing anything on your gear...
There already is a BIG difference in tankiness between destroyers and Sentinels. The MAIN reason nobody notices it in PVP is because
1) Roar was/is bugged - gave GWFs alot more CC than intended thus boosting their survivability ALOT.
2) Unstoppable Recovery was NOT respecting healing depression.
With the onset of healing depression and tenacity the trade off was: everyone becomes more tanky but heals less.
Well Tenacity made Destroyers in pvp "more tanky" but DIDNT hurt their biggest "Self heal" - Unstoppable Recovery.
I also was BLOWN AWAY when I saw Destroyers Purpose now granted 25% chance to gain a stack on ANY attack AND gave even more damage boost than before. I actually thought this was a type-o and once this went live, I even started a thread about how OP it was - to which a DEV did respond noting the math was adding wrong, which didnt really matter cause it was still MASSIVE damage.
Reverting Destroyer back to a PVE "class feature" this fixes the damage of PVP.
Fixing Roar AND Unstoppable Recovery will fix the GWF tankiness in PVP.
This exactly... When the game was released getting 1200-1300 regen took considerable amount of sacrifice from a GWF standpoint. Now they have boons and artifacts that make that number possible without losing anything on your gear...
There already is a BIG difference in tankiness between destroyers and Sentinels. The MAIN reason nobody notices it in PVP is because
1) Roar was/is bugged - gave GWFs alot more CC than intended thus boosting their survivability ALOT.
2) Unstoppable Recovery was NOT respecting healing depression.
With the onset of healing depression and tenacity the trade off was: everyone becomes more tanky but heals less.
Well Tenacity made Destroyers in pvp "more tanky" but DIDNT hurt their biggest "Self heal" - Unstoppable Recovery.
I also was BLOWN AWAY when I saw Destroyers Purpose now granted 25% chance to gain a stack on ANY attack AND gave even more damage boost than before. I actually thought this was a type-o and once this went live, I even started a thread about how OP it was - to which a DEV did respond noting the math was adding wrong, which didnt really matter cause it was still MASSIVE damage.
Reverting Destroyer back to a PVE "class feature" this fixes the damage of PVP.
Fixing Roar AND Unstoppable Recovery will fix the GWF tankiness in PVP.
GWF can get 40% DR from defense and 20% from tenacity. With a 10% unstoppable for destroyer that puts them at 70% DR.
The cap is 80%. Why is having 10% less DR the end of the world?
tenacity is not added to dr. It is just a % you subtract from the remaining damage.
Not that gwf should whine: they can achieve high dr even in destroyer. To that they will add 10% more from unstoppable. For a high damage class, is not that bad.
tenacity is not added to dr. It is just a % you subtract from the remaining damage.
Not that gwf should whine: they can achieve high dr even in destroyer. To that they will add 10% more from unstoppable. For a high damage class, is not that bad.
Let me adjust your phrasing because its these types of saying that really frustrate me because its not complete.
"Not that a GWF should whine: they can achieve high dr even in destroyer If they sacrifice offensive gear for defensive PVP gear. To that, they will add 10% more from unstoppable. For a high damage class That has to be in melee range AND has zero "dodges" to mitigate 100% of damage during those frames, is not that bad....
Do you see the problem?
Again, I want to point this out because its really only the *new* players to the game that talk like this.
Why did people never run destroyer before module 3 in PVP? Because they were not tanky enough to survive ANY damage.
Wait a second?!?!
Your telling me, a Destroyer in full tank gear wasnt tanky enough?! But what about the 40% DR + 50% Unstoppable thats clearly over the DR limit it makes no sense?!
It wasnt until tenacity that boosted DR a tad WHILE Unstoppable Recovery didnt respect healing depression STILL, that made it even conceivable to run Destroyer in competitive PVP - which BTW STILL didnt happen by any top tier pvper.
It wasnt until mod 3 when roar for a 50% reduced CD, combined with the bug, combined with takedown getting a reduced CD, AND the insane damage buff to the capstone that made this even possible.
Why?
because now instead of waiting 10-12 seconds to use takedown and prone, you can do it every 6-7 seconds.
Instead of waiting every 12-13 seconds to Roar you can do it every <8seconds.
This COMBINED with the fact GWF got STUPID OP damage buffs made it so their CC was amazing, their tankiness is actually only "OK" but combined with Unstoppable REcovery - it felt like they are MUCH tankier than they are supposed to be AND could dish out stupid damage.
Im fairly certain it didnt get the bonus damage it does now though. Not that it could be gained off any attack but that it could AND added that much damage.
I never really paid attention to it, because (as my previously deleted posts explained) Destroyers were NEVER tanky enough for PVP until the last mod.
What I would ask the DEVs to think about, why did NOBODY run Destroyer pre-mod 3?
It wasnt tanky enough.........
So why is the solution to NOW reduce the tankiness? Seems to me, it would be better to look into what added to the tankiness in mod 3 to make it worth while....
Im fairly certain it didnt get the bonus damage it does now though. Not that it could be gained off any attack but that it could AND added that much damage.
I never really paid attention to it, because (as my previously deleted posts explained) Destroyers were NEVER tanky enough for PVP until the last mod.
What I would ask the DEVs to think about, why did NOBODY run Destroyer pre-mod 3?
It wasnt tanky enough.........
So why is the solution to NOW reduce the tankiness? Seems to me, it would be better to look into what added to the tankiness in mod 3 to make it worth while....
destro tankiness in pvp only came from broken roar.
rest was fine, takedown base dmg shouldnt be touched devs have no idea what they are doing and killed the skill for any other spec
So why is the solution to NOW reduce the tankiness? Seems to me, it would be better to look into what added to the tankiness in mod 3 to make it worth while....
Not much really and you know that ....
Why destro wasent run in pvp befor was simple put that the extra dam compared to the loss of survivabilty compared to sent was not enough.
With module 3 the dam nerf to sent and the dam increase to destro changed to the destro favor in pvp and that is the simple reason why peeps started to run destro.
The dam boost was so high that you could equipp fully for defence/hp and still have enough dam to more or less cc chain kill peeps in one rotation.
With the feat that reduce timer on roar/takedown it was all set for a destro feast in pvp.
You know this Ayroux so the question is why you even ask ......
Not much really and you know that ....
Why destro wasent run in pvp befor was simple put that the extra dam compared to the loss of survivabilty compared to sent was not enough.
With module 3 the dam nerf to sent and the dam increase to destro changed to the destro favor in pvp and that is the simple reason why peeps started to run destro.
The dam boost was so high that you could equipp fully for defence/hp and still have enough dam to more or less cc chain kill peeps in one rotation.
With the feat that reduce timer on roar/takedown it was all set for a destro feast in pvp.
You know this Ayroux so the question is why you even ask ......
I had a much more detailed response that tracked the status of GWFs back from mod 1 and the changes but it was deleted for who knows what reason. Yes PART of the issue was the tankiness versus damage gain. The other part of this was tenacity - which I tied into mod 3.
If you look at pre-tenacity, it wasnt just about tankiness versus damage gain, it actually wasnt even feasible to run Destroyer because you would get combo-ed down so fast you wouldnt even know what hit you.
Then tenacity came in, making lower DR classes slightly more tanky AND combined with that, they released the grim and profound Sentinel PVP gear - the reason this is key is because of the defensive stats + deflect chance you gain.
So NOW what happened, is Destroyers had a better gear availability to them - to spec more tank for pvp. Had tenacity - to help with the "burst down" issue since it added DR AND crit reduction however they didnt really have any damage bonus for going destroyer spec, so it wasnt even useful.
THEN they make HUGE changes (like are are doing now) and buff destroyer damage a TON, and give massive CD reduction (and damage boosts) to skills like Roar and takedown.
All of the above, combined with the fact that Unstoppable Recovery doesnt respect healing depression combined with sentinel damage nerfs, made everyone flock to Destroyer.
So the question stand, what made people want to play destroyers? Even if they nerfed Sentinel damage PRE-mod3, nobody would run Destroyer because the damage still wasnt good enough.
Well it seems to me the issue again, is two fold.
1) Deal too much damage in PVP.
2) Have too much CC (roar bug)
and a THIRD issue would be:
3) Too tanky.
I would guarantee you, if ALL they did was move Unstoppable Recovery deeper into the tree, and made Destroyers Purpose 10% or less chance to proc off ANY attack - essentially removing Destroyer GWFs ability to "self heal" AND a large portion of their damage sources and FIXED Roar.
Those would be ALL thats needed.
Now why do I propose something different then?
Because I dont think the DEVs listen. They take little snippets of things, so what I am NOW afraid of, is them keeping unstoppable low DR AND moving Unstoppable Recovery.
Well I would say if you remove Unstoppable REcovery, Destroyers would NEED 25-50% DR in unstoppable.
People drastically underestimate the amount of healing that feat gave, combined with the CC Destroyers got through Roar+Takedown.
Some players needs to start understanding that they have been playing a OP class for a long while now and that's why a needed nerf feels harsh, because the gap is big and needs a big nerf to be balanced. Stop asking for to much and try to settle with fair changes that isn't making your class OP.
If I were a dev and I started to read the "feedback" from you guys and your asking for some ridiculous buff just because you still want to be OP, I would just ignore you and ALL of the feedback you given, even if some of it is good.
The only thing that made GWFs insanely OP (in pve) is the ability to stack stupid amounts of LS really, so if the gist of dumbing down the unstoppable was to actually make us have to work at surviving, then reducing the LS affect on us, would be substantial enough...
Or they could do a trade off IE more LS = less % to unstoppable buffered HP.
Comments
Thanks for this! Obviously Roar won't have its same cheese effect of rooting people (which I used like nearly everyone else) and the Unstoppable change to DR makes the GWF a little bit squishy. Good replacement from what I see.
That's right, I was simply referring to previous posts that have suggested a change in damage for the GWF and I believe he is just fine where he is right now.
So people are only interested in PvP these days? With the implementation of these patchnotes the GWF will be dead in PvE!
He won't survive any AoEs because of no damage resistance trough determination. That means he has to dodge red, which leads to no determination.
If this goes live, DC is the only viable class in Neverwinters PvE!
I thought I would also take the time since this thread was "cleansed" to point out that the DEVs announced the REASON for the changes are as above. So when people are saying this balance was for PVE purposes, I would argue you are wrong.
Chris stated here GWFs are too strong in PVP which is the real for the "dial back" - however in my post above, and previous ones, I think this was less of a dial back and more of a "massive nerf".
If you truly want to dial them back, I have (above and before) detailed out WHY GWFs are powerful in PVP and also exactly how to fix them so they are balanced.
The thing is if even 1 DEV look on Leaderboard they see GWF is not dominating soo much first page (11)HR second (5)TR the third is (4)GWF.
And this is True.
1) Destroyer: By taking away all the damage/prones in the Vanguard path and nerfing unstoppable to 5-10% damage reduction you have made this class unable to survive for more than a few seconds. With no dodges/shield/shift/teleports we are a prime target. Unstoppable was the only thing that kept us alive. If you dial the damage resistance down this much Destroyers will die to any ranged class and perhaps melee classes before they have the ability to do damage. Not only that but if GWF's can't prone they will almost never land IBS appropriately. It will be the ultimate in frustration and ultimately kill this path/tree for end game PVP. The only way to make this tree viable is to leave the damage and take away the tankiness somewhat. If you nerf both, Destroyer is destroyed.
2)Sentinel: While leaving the sentinel tree basically intact with the 25-50% unstoppable damage reduction, you completely took away their ability to do any meaningful damage. With the changes to Power and the high hit point/high defense/high deflection many other classes have at end game they will never kill anything. Couple this with the crippling changes to threatening rush for vanguards in general (our only true gap closer) and our inability to prone and you have made sentinels threadbare punching bags.
All this said, I'm fully on board with the idea that GWF's need to be nerfed. I've said it since the introduction of Mod 3. Having played a GWF for a very long time as my main I hated it when everyone rolled a GWF during this mod because they became so OP. I want my class back, and I'm tired of being called a "**** OP class". So here are some possible ways to change the GWF dynamic.
1)Destroyers: They have too much in the way of feat dependent damage. Focused destroyer and destroyer's Purpose give a crazy amount of damage to Destroyers. The way that PVP GWF's get stacks of Destroyer's purpose up is by using a plaguefire which gives them the stacks in a couple of swings giving them major damage bonus. You could simply change these dynamics by making it difficult to get these stacks, or change the bonus percentages, rather than allowing them to build so quickly and hit so hard. Thus you nerf the damage bonus against classes that are difficult to hit. If you're going to nerf Unstoppable for Destroyers be more conservative, give them a 20-40% damage resistance rather than completely making unstoppable a useless gesture. For all trees of GWF's don't get rid of all the prones or you break the ability of their heavy hitting damage dealing encounter IBS. Also you could simply decrease the feat relentless battle fury which is what makes roar and takedown (2 rather bad PVE encounters I might add) spammable ability.
2)Sentinels: Give them either more damage resistance/CC immunity or more control if you are going to nerf their damage this badly. If you don't then they will simply run around the node until they die unable to effectively counter any class. You could allow Sentinels to use restoring strike without healing depression which would give them survivablilty so they can maintain some relevance.
Some other suggestions: If you are going to give threatening rush usable charges then have it function like lunging strike closing massive distances accurately (not as much damage obviously as lunging strike), this would make it viable.
If you are looking to go the stun route instead of prones, give GWF's at least one prone to wind up for the IBS to keep it viable.
If you are trying to Push (as I suspect) GWF's away from vanguard then give us viable gap closers with the swordmaster path. Flourish is fine and we get to keep IBS but Punishing charge as a gap closer leaves something to be desired as you often end up quite a distance from the target making it a poor choice. Lastly I would ask, rather kindly, please do not do what you have done to TR's or GF's in the past which is make sweeping changes (even more potentially to the GWF's with changing two of their base class abilities... sprint and unstoppable) to correct an obvious OP problem. You will only cause more grief and crying. Small changes over time, fixing OP problems with a sculpting tool instead of a nerf hammer, that's how classes evolve. Sweeping changes cause major upheaval and make class balancing even more difficult as the over-correction often swings the class into the under-powered sphere. My biggest fear is that I will log into mod 4 and feel like I'm playing a foreign class. One that doesn't function like anything prior to that mod. Like I picked one class and got the bait and switch for some other alien class. Please don't make that happen.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
Couldnt have said this better myself. Cheers mate!
Tested uptime on instigator capstone: 8% of combat time. pretty much no way to not take damage, and actively avoiding [all] damage is kind of counterproductive when the class feature requires you to take damage to be used.
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
And what does "interrupt all powers" means in dungeons?
I'm not a PvP player so I'm concerned about my survivability in PvE.
All these people on test running with their already endgame 18k ++ GS is the base for feedback?
THERE IS NO CONTENT FOR THAT GEAR - and they will be setting the bar for all of us players? Because mods deleted the handful of LOGICAL post stating mid to low-end tiered geared people will not survive THE DUNGEONS RELATIVE TO THEIR GEAR SCORE...
wE ARE off tanks AT THE LEAST, and are suppose to be able to facetank too some extent with no problems.... NOT run away constantly (new sprint <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> idea just caters to PvP balance)
Hey cleric, here I come to save you!!!! wait, now i must run away!!!
Hey here I come to help you GF to DPS this mob down!!! wait, red circle, I must run AWAY!!! yay atleast i won't be CCed.
Give us ranged skills if you dont want us all up in the mobs face.
LFM DC and 4 HR.
the problem with ROAR wasn't the stun, it was the stun lock, that made other classes to lose their Dailies.
Blace ICe gear 4/4 give the same bonus for all classes and they have Overflowed sockets, changin their bonus will result in a better set than profound, so no need for that.
-i belive ROAR is similiar to a scream that makes enemy to tremble resulting into a stun so you can give ROAR the stun that takedown has it in preview, and remove the stun locks from enemyy encounters/dailies...
-leave takedown prone, frontline prone
-fix restoring strike as it doesn't do damage,
-destroyer purpose says this "You now gain determination by dealing damage,and unstopable also increases your encounter power damage by 10%, when you deal damage while unstoppable you gain a stack of Damage Purpose (max 20.). Each Stack of damage purpose increases your damage by 2%. destroyer purpose lasts for 25 seconds" . So in other words change that to 1% , cause 10%+20% = 30% so the damage is consideratly lowered than before.
-leave other Threating rush, takedown , frontline surge as it is on live damage as it is, fix some animations from some skills
-unstopable at 15-35% , and 25-50% for sentinels.
Another thing that must be kept in mind, the changes that are made for gwf , there are other changes made on weaker classes atm
- so nerfing this class and powering other classes it will result again in another unbalanced pvp /pve runs.
and like i said, and i dont say it in a bad way for GF
giving them more MaxHP and lowering our damage iti will result in a unbalanced pvp .
but i agree with givin the GF class more hp than other classes. 50-60hp is okai, as other classes remain at 40k hp .
oh and as for Instigator paragon...
what can i say, for what can i see on IV path is that
Destroyer has Feracious heals as class feat
Sentinel has Tremple of the Fallen as class feat
but Instigator doesn't have anythin like that
oh and another thing that we don't know , from the stats we get from tenacity, we see there Armor penetration supression , maybe they want to add this stat, so it does have some logic changing lowering the defense on unstopable... but there are so many things that we don't know...and no announcements about the new relase ..
This is Feedback discussion about GWF if y want tell somthing pls pm.
Self heal is self heal not = heal so GWF cannot heal sorry to tell y. And fey thistle beat all shal boons cuz it stack first of all DP second its pure dps and heal y from ls.
Ive been trying to make this point for a long time, and people dont get it - and it amazes me. This is exactly why this discussion CANNOT be balanced around PVE it must be balanced through PVP with PVE in mind.
Ive seen posts saying theve gone on test and run HEs... Well congrats for outgearing them and saying you can still do them... Thats not the point.
The point is: These changes are going to make ALOT of people mad. 1) Destoryers because they cant hit anyone in PVP, cant take damage in pvp. 2) Sentinels because they deal zero damage and ALL they can do is face tank now. 3) Destroyers of APPROPRIATE gear score in PVE who now feel like they are wearing cloth armor...
I already posted last page the REASON for these changes is the DEVs felt GWFs were OP in PVP. So its PVP were talking about fixing.
Too many damage nerfs to the GWF will make them suck again in PVE. Too many DR nerfs will make them suck in BOTH PVE and PVP.
There are only a SMALL FEW reasons the GWF is OP in PVP and honestly Unstoppable is NOT one of them. Dont make these MAJOR changes with the nerf hammer - not because I want my class to be OP, but because I want the class to be FAIR. I think its silly to completely change the class around when very small minor things are what needs changing.
I also am fearful that THESE NEW changes make Instigators completely worthless.... They rely on Unstoppable too...
I agree, only a small nip and tuck would bring GWF to PvP balanced lvl.... I am a true destroyer build, and one that don't stack LS, and use heal based boons. so with this change, i'm totally ruined in PvE. because my build already requires timing and skill to not be consistently dead.
Sure someone with my build at 17k+++ GS would own an instance geared towards 10k GS characters...and do so with no problem. But someone with my build at 12-13k GS in epic t2 dungeons, actually has to work at survival as it is... IWD as it is now, if i try soloing minors I get owned. My buffered HP from unstoppable is usually ate up in a matter of second. This is on LIVE server. I would be instant dead with new changes. And this game is SO friggin add crazy with mobs, that doing a simple minor you have to fight 5+ mobs..
So as it ALREADY is, GWFs do sacrifice survival in exchange for huge DPS.... Just we can't see this because they continue to dump OP gear/artifacts/companions into the game that has surpassed the content ten folds over.. So they assume, since we dominate PvE it must be the reason we dominate PvP too....
This exactly... When the game was released getting 1200-1300 regen took considerable amount of sacrifice from a GWF standpoint. Now they have boons and artifacts that make that number possible without losing anything on your gear...
There already is a BIG difference in tankiness between destroyers and Sentinels. The MAIN reason nobody notices it in PVP is because
1) Roar was/is bugged - gave GWFs alot more CC than intended thus boosting their survivability ALOT.
2) Unstoppable Recovery was NOT respecting healing depression.
With the onset of healing depression and tenacity the trade off was: everyone becomes more tanky but heals less.
Well Tenacity made Destroyers in pvp "more tanky" but DIDNT hurt their biggest "Self heal" - Unstoppable Recovery.
I also was BLOWN AWAY when I saw Destroyers Purpose now granted 25% chance to gain a stack on ANY attack AND gave even more damage boost than before. I actually thought this was a type-o and once this went live, I even started a thread about how OP it was - to which a DEV did respond noting the math was adding wrong, which didnt really matter cause it was still MASSIVE damage.
Reverting Destroyer back to a PVE "class feature" this fixes the damage of PVP.
Fixing Roar AND Unstoppable Recovery will fix the GWF tankiness in PVP.
i thou it always worked like that.
GWF can get 40% DR from defense and 20% from tenacity. With a 10% unstoppable for destroyer that puts them at 70% DR.
The cap is 80%. Why is having 10% less DR the end of the world?
tenacity is not added to dr. It is just a % you subtract from the remaining damage.
Not that gwf should whine: they can achieve high dr even in destroyer. To that they will add 10% more from unstoppable. For a high damage class, is not that bad.
Let me adjust your phrasing because its these types of saying that really frustrate me because its not complete.
"Not that a GWF should whine: they can achieve high dr even in destroyer If they sacrifice offensive gear for defensive PVP gear. To that, they will add 10% more from unstoppable. For a high damage class That has to be in melee range AND has zero "dodges" to mitigate 100% of damage during those frames, is not that bad....
Do you see the problem?
Again, I want to point this out because its really only the *new* players to the game that talk like this.
Why did people never run destroyer before module 3 in PVP?
Because they were not tanky enough to survive ANY damage.
Wait a second?!?!
Your telling me, a Destroyer in full tank gear wasnt tanky enough?! But what about the 40% DR + 50% Unstoppable thats clearly over the DR limit it makes no sense?!
It wasnt until tenacity that boosted DR a tad WHILE Unstoppable Recovery didnt respect healing depression STILL, that made it even conceivable to run Destroyer in competitive PVP - which BTW STILL didnt happen by any top tier pvper.
It wasnt until mod 3 when roar for a 50% reduced CD, combined with the bug, combined with takedown getting a reduced CD, AND the insane damage buff to the capstone that made this even possible.
Why?
because now instead of waiting 10-12 seconds to use takedown and prone, you can do it every 6-7 seconds.
Instead of waiting every 12-13 seconds to Roar you can do it every <8seconds.
This COMBINED with the fact GWF got STUPID OP damage buffs made it so their CC was amazing, their tankiness is actually only "OK" but combined with Unstoppable REcovery - it felt like they are MUCH tankier than they are supposed to be AND could dish out stupid damage.
Im fairly certain it didnt get the bonus damage it does now though. Not that it could be gained off any attack but that it could AND added that much damage.
I never really paid attention to it, because (as my previously deleted posts explained) Destroyers were NEVER tanky enough for PVP until the last mod.
What I would ask the DEVs to think about, why did NOBODY run Destroyer pre-mod 3?
It wasnt tanky enough.........
So why is the solution to NOW reduce the tankiness? Seems to me, it would be better to look into what added to the tankiness in mod 3 to make it worth while....
destro tankiness in pvp only came from broken roar.
rest was fine, takedown base dmg shouldnt be touched devs have no idea what they are doing and killed the skill for any other spec
Not much really and you know that ....
Why destro wasent run in pvp befor was simple put that the extra dam compared to the loss of survivabilty compared to sent was not enough.
With module 3 the dam nerf to sent and the dam increase to destro changed to the destro favor in pvp and that is the simple reason why peeps started to run destro.
The dam boost was so high that you could equipp fully for defence/hp and still have enough dam to more or less cc chain kill peeps in one rotation.
With the feat that reduce timer on roar/takedown it was all set for a destro feast in pvp.
You know this Ayroux so the question is why you even ask ......
I had a much more detailed response that tracked the status of GWFs back from mod 1 and the changes but it was deleted for who knows what reason. Yes PART of the issue was the tankiness versus damage gain. The other part of this was tenacity - which I tied into mod 3.
If you look at pre-tenacity, it wasnt just about tankiness versus damage gain, it actually wasnt even feasible to run Destroyer because you would get combo-ed down so fast you wouldnt even know what hit you.
Then tenacity came in, making lower DR classes slightly more tanky AND combined with that, they released the grim and profound Sentinel PVP gear - the reason this is key is because of the defensive stats + deflect chance you gain.
So NOW what happened, is Destroyers had a better gear availability to them - to spec more tank for pvp. Had tenacity - to help with the "burst down" issue since it added DR AND crit reduction however they didnt really have any damage bonus for going destroyer spec, so it wasnt even useful.
THEN they make HUGE changes (like are are doing now) and buff destroyer damage a TON, and give massive CD reduction (and damage boosts) to skills like Roar and takedown.
All of the above, combined with the fact that Unstoppable Recovery doesnt respect healing depression combined with sentinel damage nerfs, made everyone flock to Destroyer.
So the question stand, what made people want to play destroyers? Even if they nerfed Sentinel damage PRE-mod3, nobody would run Destroyer because the damage still wasnt good enough.
Well it seems to me the issue again, is two fold.
1) Deal too much damage in PVP.
2) Have too much CC (roar bug)
and a THIRD issue would be:
3) Too tanky.
I would guarantee you, if ALL they did was move Unstoppable Recovery deeper into the tree, and made Destroyers Purpose 10% or less chance to proc off ANY attack - essentially removing Destroyer GWFs ability to "self heal" AND a large portion of their damage sources and FIXED Roar.
Those would be ALL thats needed.
Now why do I propose something different then?
Because I dont think the DEVs listen. They take little snippets of things, so what I am NOW afraid of, is them keeping unstoppable low DR AND moving Unstoppable Recovery.
Well I would say if you remove Unstoppable REcovery, Destroyers would NEED 25-50% DR in unstoppable.
People drastically underestimate the amount of healing that feat gave, combined with the CC Destroyers got through Roar+Takedown.
If I were a dev and I started to read the "feedback" from you guys and your asking for some ridiculous buff just because you still want to be OP, I would just ignore you and ALL of the feedback you given, even if some of it is good.
Or they could do a trade off IE more LS = less % to unstoppable buffered HP.