Man, you can tell us your bla bla bla , but you dint prof anything , just that you're trying to say that GWF can do something without his controll skills , let me ask you something , did you tried test server this days ?
just take a look when i join the comunity and whe you did , all i can think is that you're flammer , are only here to annoy everyone with you're supositions , and you're broken conception of game mechanics ...
"If you really want to make a case against GWF vs. HR on Preview, you're going to need to post your exact build vs. their exact build and specify how they are killing you where they couldn't kill you before and how you are failing to kill them where you killed them before."
ok im wating for your GWF winning a fight against any class in this new module , you're not the one saying that im not good enough because i cant play without roar or takedown ? i dont need to show you any prof , while you're the one saying the opose .
if you want to know my gears here they are - Alistair Amak@peterspigel
now show me what you're saying in a video or something like it , because you're already losing your credibility ...
A video of someone killing someone with only at-wills, then? Possible, but it requires favorable circumstances.
Asking for that in the first place shows how silly you are, though.
The ball is on your side, proof you are right and im wrong and forget about all your chitchat, we just want to see a video about what you claimed.
Sorry, what are you asking me to prove? It's pretty unclear with all of your 'bla bla blah'.
I've asserted this:
1) GWFs can kill people without using Roar
2) GWFs can kill people without Takedown doing a Prone
3) HRs can kill people without Thorn Ward
4) CWs can kill people without Shard of the Endless Avalanche
5) TRs can kill people without Bait and Switch
6) You don't need 'one specific loadout' in order to kill someone
If you think 3), 4), 5) or 6) is false, you're clearly inexperienced in PvP. When I offered to make video evidence of 3), you demurred and switched to a different request (of course).
If you'd like to contend that 1) or 2) are false, then you should show a video of yourself, as a GWF, failing to kill anyone in PvP while using those skills in their nerfed state on Preview.
I will happily make a video of 1) and 2) being shown as true, on Live and on Preview.
All you've said so far is 'Show me a video of someone killing someone without CC or DPS', which is obviously absurd and obviously troll-behavior. You're implying that without a bugged Roar and prone on Takedown, GWFs have no CC, which is also clearly false.
So go ahead and ante up a real point on something, and/or real video evidence of yourself failing wildly to kill anyone on Preview while using the two nerfed skills and Unstoppable (along with screenshots of Gear and Build), or let's just forget about all of your "chitchat."
A video of someone killing someone with only at-wills, then? Possible, but it requires favorable circumstances.
Asking for that in the first place shows how silly you are, though.
Sorry, what are you asking me to prove? It's pretty unclear with all of your 'bla bla blah'.
I've asserted this:
1) GWFs can kill people without using Roar
2) GWFs can kill people without Takedown doing a Prone
3) HRs can kill people without Thorn Ward
4) CWs can kill people without Shard of the Endless Avalanche
5) TRs can kill people without Bait and Switch
6) You don't need 'one specific loadout' in order to kill someone
If you think 3), 4), 5) or 6) is false, you're clearly inexperienced in PvP. When I offered to make video evidence of 3), you demurred and switched to a different request (of course).
If you'd like to contend that 1) or 2) are false, then you should show a video of yourself, as a GWF, failing to kill anyone in PvP while using those skills in their nerfed state on Preview.
I will happily make a video of 1) and 2) being shown as true, on Live and on Preview.
All you've said so far is 'Show me a video of someone killing someone without CC or DPS', which is obviously absurd and obviously troll-behavior. You're implying that without a bugged Roar and prone on Takedown, GWFs have no CC, which is also clearly false.
So go ahead and ante up a real point on something, and/or real video evidence of yourself failing wildly to kill anyone on Preview while using the two nerfed skills and Unstoppable (along with screenshots of Gear and Build), or let's just forget about all of your "chitchat."
show me a video of u killing an equally geared player of any class with only using flourish for stunning and rest u can choose whatever u like but they shld not be any CC in them .
u have been blabbing a lot , u say loadout = skill , in build everything is included from encounters to ur stats . and if u cant understand that , u calling us troll and twisting all facts to ur convenience .
in ur video make sure the other player is equally geared and ur class is GWF using only florish and no takedown or roar.
then we will see how much ur words are true , and dont twist the facts after this , till u present the video dont give any comment on how a GWF class shld be or not, without actual proofs.
show me a video of u killing an equally geared player of any class with only using flourish for stunning and rest u can choose whatever u like but they shld not be any CC in them .
u have been blabbing a lot , u say loadout = skill , in build everything is included from encounters to ur stats . and if u cant understand that , u calling us troll and twisting all facts to ur convenience .
in ur video make sure the other player is equally geared and ur class is GWF using only florish and no takedown or roar.
then we will see how much ur words are true , and dont twist the facts after this , till u present the video dont give any comment on how a GWF class shld be or not, without actual proofs.
Don't see any facts I've twisted, or why I have to restrict my loadout beyond what I've asserted.
GWFs seem to be saying that 'omg I can't win in pvp without Takedown giving a prone and Roar being op-bugged'. I contend that's not true. Rather than delineate how GWFs are completely hamstrung in pvp with those nerfs, you've just attacked my 'words'.
Which shows an inability to defend the point of 'omg GWFs can't win in pvp without Takedown giving a prone and Roar being op-bugged'.
But sure, I'll defend my points with video. Feel free to counter with your own, but I doubt you will.
1 - Yes, you did. Thats why im asking you for a vid about your feats, just proof us you are "a good HR" who can kill other classes without any CC and DPS damage as "good GWFs do" and as youself stated on your post on your own words. . I already said im a "bad GWF" due i use takedown, IBS and roar. You can shut my trap right here right now with a real proof instead with your babling and crying.
No, I never said good players don't use CC or DPS. That's absurd.
I said good players don't need to rely on "_____" specific skills to win. Because they have other skills, in their class, that do DPS and CC.
I don't know why that's so difficult for you to grasp.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2014
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Don't see any facts I've twisted, or why I have to restrict my loadout beyond what I've asserted.
GWFs seem to be saying that 'omg I can't win in pvp without Takedown giving a prone and Roar being op-bugged'. I contend that's not true. Rather than delineate how GWFs are completely hamstrung in pvp with those nerfs, you've just attacked my 'words'.
Which shows an inability to defend the point of 'omg GWFs can't win in pvp without Takedown giving a prone and Roar being op-bugged'.
But sure, I'll defend my points with video. Feel free to counter with your own, but I doubt you will.
u dont seem to play GWF i think.
the IBS animation takes more than .66 sec to activate, means it need .66sec+ to do dmg after u press the button.
and with tenacity and other control resist buffs coming from ability points and artifact the stun duration can go below .66 sec even if we r getting 2 sec stuns .
so to actually able to land IBS on opponent we need prones cause thats the only sure fire way to dmg them.
sure u can try with all powers u can think of but in the end they dont have as much dmg as IBS.
when 1 isnt able to land his or her IBS we loose our chance to dmg them , with all stuns now there dmg is 3k-8k if it crits , and 500-1.5k as normal dmg against high geared players .
only IBS has dmg which is 2k+ even when it doesnt crit.
so for GWF stuns are useless , if u have ever seen SM GWF fight , there IBS are landed after takedown then using florish after that , the reason is as explained above .
if some1 try there IBS after flourish , IBS will fail 3 out of 5 times.
so plz learn to play GWF or show a video , where GWF is winning 1v1 in preview against any class with approx same loadout with only 1 stun as there stuning encounter.
I agree to the point that takedown should knock players prone. Not just because of balance, but, gosh, its name is TAKEDOWN!
On the other hand, IBS is actually an AoE spell. Very small area but still noticable. That means that with proper timing u can hit enemies with it even if they escape ur cc early.
Countless of times I recieved the dmg of IBS while i tried to run away from it.
One more point: the cooldown reduction of takedown is too much. In live if u miss u have 2 secs, meaning, I just spam takedown until I hit (even from range lol because of odd animation-hit-trigger-times), then time my roar, then IBS and the target has no chance to escape if hit from takedown. Cc chained all the way and it gets even worse when gwfs daily is up.
So most of the changes to gwfs are reasonable.
If takedown knocks prone, it should not has a shortened cooldown on a miss or with a feat.
Sorry for interruption, but DC don't use dps and cc powers in pvp. High end DC use 3 healing powers, 1 buff daily and 1 heal daily in pvp. We have very low dps and no solid cc powers, so don't say DC always slot dps and cc encounter in pvp. Thank you.
I agree to the point that takedown should knock players prone. Not just because of balance, but, gosh, its name is TAKEDOWN!
On the other hand, IBS is actually an AoE spell. Very small area but still noticable. That means that with proper timing u can hit enemies with it even if they escape ur cc early.
Countless of times I recieved the dmg of IBS while i tried to run away from it.
One more point: the cooldown reduction of takedown is too much. In live if u miss u have 2 secs, meaning, I just spam takedown until I hit (even from range lol because of odd animation-hit-trigger-times), then time my roar, then IBS and the target has no chance to escape if hit from takedown. Cc chained all the way and it gets even worse when gwfs daily is up.
So most of the changes to gwfs are reasonable.
If takedown knocks prone, it should not has a shortened cooldown on a miss or with a feat.
takedown cooldown comes for destroyer feat. so after new module when every1 go being sentinel they will have normal cooldown so dont think ur argument is right.
thats why non GWF player dont need to comment at feedback , cause they dont know what is GWF all about , all u see is GWF in PVP is OP, the GWF is a class for versatile function so ofc it will look good in PVP due to balance in everything , CW is for PVE so it is OP in PVE. but at the end of the day due to roar being bugged u guys made GWF nerfed down with ur unreasonable whining.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Read it again and understand it before talking about a thing i did not say. But like Saini said: going for close combat vs a GWF is not a really smart idea for a 16k CW... but, again, thanks for showing us your knowledge on PvP if you think Smigi is a good CW.
Severe reaction + plaguefire = permanent stamina pool = always have dodges. Just so happens the feat also requires you to be in close proximity to the opponent. There's more than one way to play CW.
So many misleading, uninformed posts about GWFs by people who clearly don't play it and didn't play it back before module 2/ iron vanguard...
First of all, it must be stated that what we talk about is, obviously, 1v1 situations.
Before Iron Vanguard path was introduced, Swordmaster sentinels needed a very specific setup and rotation in End-game to vs permastealth TRs and CWs. Mainly, we're talking about Bravery and Roar. Not cause Roar is bugged, but cause Roar even if not bugged was supposed to root enemies. Takedown and flourish ere not enough to catch up on a perma TR or a good CW. You would be kited forever. There was even a video of a GWF sentinel trying to vs a CW from Lemonade Stand old guild, and getting literally destroyed/ kited cause he was trying to just use flourish-takedown-IBS. GWFs used to go for Bravery (10% more run speed and deflect) and use roar to root the CW/ TR, then sprint, takedown and IBS. And nobody ever complained about it. Destroyers got shorter CDs on these 2 powers, but at the cost of a survivability loss.
Then we got Iron Vanguard and with threat rush and FLS, it was the age of unkitable sentinel tanks we all know.
Now, Flourish, if i recall well, got a range increase which is still not enough to compensate the very slow animation of the power. Plus the latest damage increase, which is useless if the power is too slow to connect and is easily dodged.
CWs can dodge more than ever and permas are as dodgy as ever. Plus we have HRs now.
GWFs do not survive as much as in module 1 cause regeneration is gone due to healing depression and are less capable to troll multiple enemies than a perma TR or pathfinder HR.
Now, IV nerfs on threat rush and FLS, plus JUST A FIX on Roar, would pretty much reset the whole picture, if we talk about kiting/ mobility, to how it was in module 1. Plus GWFs now can't regenerate forever. But hey, Destroyers got a damage boost. So let's nerf takedown damage and Unstoppable for Destroyers. Enough? No.
Take away all prones and further nerf Roar, taking away the rooting effect. Now this makes Roar worthless (chip damage and determination gain is not even good enough for PvE...) and leaves swordmasters with a pretty much useless flourish (any strong TR or CW can dodge it), a ubernerfed takedown, and IBS.
Iron Vanguards with a 17 seconds cooldown ranged stun and 3 charges of threat rush, both ubernerfed in damage, and a ubernerfed takedown.
This is a lot more kitable than module 1 GWFs, even with new sprint stamina drain, since both takedown and flourish alone are easily dodged by CWs, TRs or HRs. Crescendo is a daily and leaves a room for GWFs to activate Unstoppable, or for TRs to activate ITC before the final blow lands to prone them.
If you can post a video of a GWF vsing a strong TR/ CW/ HR on preview and counter his kiting with flourish or takedown, i'll be happy to watch and learn.
Else, please refrain from posting about stuff you may not really know...
thats why non GWF player dont need to comment at feedback , cause they dont know what is GWF all about , all u see is GWF in PVP is OP, the GWF is a class for versatile function so ofc it will look good in PVP due to balance in everything , CW is for PVE so it is OP in PVE.
Just for ur information, I played a BiS gwf in pvp premades a long time. Not a pseudo BiS gwf who is specced for pve and just switches rings and armor and thinks hes a big player now.
I believe the method for balancing in this game is odd. I would always base changes on current gameplay dynamics instead of inventing whole new feats and mechanics.
That beeing said, my feedback is based on the current situation on live.
The only real balance the gwf needs is a roar fix and maybe 3 charge of TR like on preview.
U dont realize that I am on ur side.
But I am also sick of whining gwfs of how they NEED things to compete. Thats so lol. Gwf is imbalanced as the HR is right now.
But PLS stop that whining attitude. Bad playing gwf are wiping the floor with other classes just using the current cockie cutter destroyer build and button smashing. I litteraly roll my eyes 9 out of ten times when I see a gwf playing against an HR… because the gwf doent know AT ALL how to time encounters or position well.
Btw the comment about cw is pve class and gwf is pvp class… lol?
I find this lot funny , most here that aprove the GWF changes for next module aren't GWF playrs or not even test it in test server , but still think this opinion is the greater , and its right , or just plays with a HR or TR , that loses sometimes for a GWF , what they want a game for TRs and HRs only , ok there is a certain usefor CWs And DCs in pvp , but none of the other classes are so Overpowered like Trs and HRs , only GWF could , but know after this new module , GWf 'll be the new GF , why cryptc spend his time and money to release a new class , is very clear that the game are focused on this 2 classes , if you guys stop and think , what nerf 'll happen to TR ? what balance is this ? even GF th most weak class in the game had a nerf on his shield , and what TR had ?
Now lets talk about HR , in his archery tree he now have 50% of cooldown reduction on its ranged atacks , but wait the other feat gives 50% more dmg in ranged skills, ok they changed one of his Feat path but to bring another Op construction , so whats left , CW were rearranged , but i cant say much about it because i dont playwith this one or even talk about DC , but i have all the other classes , and all i see is no hope for melee game play anymore
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So many misleading, uninformed posts about GWFs by people who clearly don't play it and didn't play it back before module 2/ iron vanguard...
First of all, it must be stated that what we talk about is, obviously, 1v1 situations.
Before Iron Vanguard path was introduced, Swordmaster sentinels needed a very specific setup and rotation in End-game to vs permastealth TRs and CWs. Mainly, we're talking about Bravery and Roar. Not cause Roar is bugged, but cause Roar even if not bugged was supposed to root enemies. Takedown and flourish ere not enough to catch up on a perma TR or a good CW. You would be kited forever. There was even a video of a GWF sentinel trying to vs a CW from Lemonade Stand old guild, and getting literally destroyed/ kited cause he was trying to just use flourish-takedown-IBS. GWFs used to go for Bravery (10% more run speed and deflect) and use roar to root the CW/ TR, then sprint, takedown and IBS. And nobody ever complained about it. Destroyers got shorter CDs on these 2 powers, but at the cost of a survivability loss.
Then we got Iron Vanguard and with threat rush and FLS, it was the age of unkitable sentinel tanks we all know.
Now, Flourish, if i recall well, got a range increase which is still not enough to compensate the very slow animation of the power. Plus the latest damage increase, which is useless if the power is too slow to connect and is easily dodged.
CWs can dodge more than ever and permas are as dodgy as ever. Plus we have HRs now.
GWFs do not survive as much as in module 1 cause regeneration is gone due to healing depression and are less capable to troll multiple enemies than a perma TR or pathfinder HR.
Now, IV nerfs on threat rush and FLS, plus JUST A FIX on Roar, would pretty much reset the whole picture, if we talk about kiting/ mobility, to how it was in module 1. Plus GWFs now can't regenerate forever. But hey, Destroyers got a damage boost. So let's nerf takedown damage and Unstoppable for Destroyers. Enough? No.
Take away all prones and further nerf Roar, taking away the rooting effect. Now this makes Roar worthless (chip damage and determination gain is not even good enough for PvE...) and leaves swordmasters with a pretty much useless flourish (any strong TR or CW can dodge it), a ubernerfed takedown, and IBS.
Iron Vanguards with a 17 seconds cooldown ranged stun and 3 charges of threat rush, both ubernerfed in damage, and a ubernerfed takedown.
This is a lot more kitable than module 1 GWFs, even with new sprint stamina drain, since both takedown and flourish alone are easily dodged by CWs, TRs or HRs. Crescendo is a daily and leaves a room for GWFs to activate Unstoppable, or for TRs to activate ITC before the final blow lands to prone them.
If you can post a video of a GWF vsing a strong TR/ CW/ HR on preview and counter his kiting with flourish or takedown, i'll be happy to watch and learn.
Else, please refrain from posting about stuff you may not really know...
^this is essentially what I've been saying from the start of this thread.
Severe reaction + plaguefire = permanent stamina pool = always have dodges. Just so happens the feat also requires you to be in close proximity to the opponent. There's more than one way to play CW.
I'm sorry, but you lost me. How does plaguefire grant stamina? Also, why did you post this in the GWF thread?
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm sorry, but you lost me. How does plaguefire grant stamina? Also, why did you post this in the GWF thread?
Was replying to a post in the GWF thread. Probably shouldn't but the posts haven't been moved to a better thread yet.
Severe Reaction - When struck you have a 15% chance to repel your attacker 1/2/3/4/5 feet and restore 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina. This only works within 20 feet.
Just so happens that "when struck" also applies to DoT damage. So a constant pf burn is quite a decent stamina return for a CW with this feat. Gives them a bit more flexibility when engaging a GWF on node. While the ideal is obviously to try and land your rotation from a safe distance, a lot of the time you don't have the option and need to contest the point.
Was replying to a post in the GWF thread. Probably shouldn't but the posts haven't been moved to a better thread yet.
Severe Reaction - When struck you have a 15% chance to repel your attacker 1/2/3/4/5 feet and restore 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina. This only works within 20 feet.
Just so happens that "when struck" also applies to DoT damage. So a constant pf burn is quite a decent stamina return for a CW with this feat. Gives them a bit more flexibility when engaging a GWF on node. While the ideal is obviously to try and land your rotation from a safe distance, a lot of the time you don't have the option and need to contest the point.
Ok, I see the confusion. You meant when the CW is struck with Plaguefire. I thought you meant when the CW uses Severe Reaction and Plaguefire on his own weapons. A better phrasing may have been "severe reaaction + DoT damage on the CW".
For that matter, some Destro builds use "Deep Gash" to stack Destroyer's Purpose, which will also probably proc your CW's Severe Reaction.
Right now, im waiting for 2 videos:
One from Myrnym, who claimed he could kill any other class without any CC or DPS encounter (just with at-wills, burst damage encounters and escapes) and other from other user who claimed CN 4/4 in mod 4 can be done with a rainbow party when we have read the nerfs on GWFs and CWs... and i have plenty room here to wait for these videos.
You'll be waiting a long time if you think I said "no DPS or CC."
I said no "this specific skill" within the loadout, since you stated that "all pvpers used such and such exact loadout" and did not deviate.
HRs, for example, can use
Fox
Marauder
Constricting
Thorn
Hindering
to great effect (not counting more specific usage of other encounters). That's four loadouts, out of 5 skills, that don't involve Thorn Ward and can work well.
I can repeat the same for CW & GWF, but you're intensely focused on "no DPS or CC" for some reason (perhaps because you equate me deriding 'lazy cc chains' with me saying 'never use CC ever'). Takedown still stuns on Preview (ermahgerd it's still CC wow), don't need Roar (pointless anyway on Preview), etc... etc... etc....
But yeah, I'll do a vid of GWF PvP on Preview. It'll have CC and DPS, but it won't need Roar to do well. Because GWFs haven't needed Roar to do well in Mod3-onward.
Right now, im waiting for 2 videos:
One from Myrnym, who claimed he could kill any other class without any CC or DPS encounter (just with at-wills, burst damage encounters and escapes) and other from other user who claimed CN 4/4 in mod 4 can be done with a rainbow party when we have read the nerfs on GWFs and CWs... and i have plenty room here to wait for these videos.
To be fair, its impossible to do CN at the moment in preview.
So many misleading, uninformed posts about GWFs by people who clearly don't play it and didn't play it back before module 2/ iron vanguard...
First of all, it must be stated that what we talk about is, obviously, 1v1 situations.
Before Iron Vanguard path was introduced, Swordmaster sentinels needed a very specific setup and rotation in End-game to vs permastealth TRs and CWs. Mainly, we're talking about Bravery and Roar. Not cause Roar is bugged, but cause Roar even if not bugged was supposed to root enemies.
ummmmm no roar is actually just supposed to interupt enemies so you are wrong on that regard read the tooltip. so it is bugged and has never been working as intended. it was never suppose to "root' enemies i have no idea where you got that from so stop misleading everyone with faulty info.nowhere is an interupt a "root" if that was the case feated lunging strike from the tactician tree of GF should work in the same regard as your "root" roar but it doesnt you are so very wrong.
you also forgot to mention that sprinting makes you cc immune now and if you spec/gear right you can have almost a 100% uptime on that , but hey thats besides the point and fyi FLS & takedown give you enough time to land an IBS on an opponent on preview.
personally imho GWF should never have been given the IV path as GF's should have never been given Swordmaster path it's laughable that you can even compare the two to each other vs classes
where as IV GWF gained so much more as opposed to GF's getting swordmaster but this is due to the oversight that the devs never scaled the IV path to GWF dmg. it was a mistake and a cop out on the devs part maybe because they were rushed for time who the hell knows..
i have never ever used roar till module 3 when destroyer purpose was introduced , and have killed perma TR and CW with florish, takedown and IBS b4 mod 2 and FS, takedown and IBS after it.
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
but after mod 4 it will be near impossible to kill perma TR and very hard to kill others without a prone .
and for those who think IBS aoe effect is more than enough to do significant dmg plz tell me hom much dmg it actually does.
as the name stated by takedown if it does not prone whats the use of it naming like that .
and lets talk about using sprint and IBS , both there animation takes .66+ sec , nether they are suitable for dodging after other person has activated there encounters nor IBS is suitable for landing it , till the animation it finishes it allows other party to move way b4 that.
without prone or root effect of roar it will be very hard for GWF to survive in next module.
i have never ever used roar till module 3 when destroyer purpose was introduced , and have killed perma TR and CW with florish, takedown and IBS b4 mod 2 and FS, takedown and IBS after it.
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
but after mod 4 it will be near impossible to kill perma TR and very hard to kill others without a prone .
and for those who think IBS aoe effect is more than enough to do significant dmg plz tell me hom much dmg it actually does.
as the name stated by takedown if it does not prone whats the use of it naming like that .
and lets talk about using sprint and IBS , both there animation takes .66+ sec , nether they are suitable for dodging after other person has activated there encounters nor IBS is suitable for landing it , till the animation it finishes it allows other party to move way b4 that.
without prone or root effect of roar it will be very hard for GWF to survive in next module.
If they speed up IBS I think that would fix the problem. Otherwise the main damage encounter of the class will be unusable in pvp against anyone that's paying attention.
But yeah, I'll do a vid of GWF PvP on Preview. It'll have CC and DPS, but it won't need Roar to do well. Because GWFs haven't needed Roar to do well in Mod3-onward.
Herpaderpaferp.
GWFs so far needed either FLS or Roar against end game permas and CWs. I'd say even more in module 4 since it seems that CWs now can Dodge more and faster. Also, CC chains are not done cause GWFs are lazy. IBS needs the enemy to ne CCed to land, else, Any half decent TR-CW-HR-GF-DC will Dodge or block it in 1v1. Ranged stuns and prones are used has a 1st move for a couple of reasons:
- contesting a node against a strong perma, the only seconds he's vulnerable, he's far from you. He will be in ITC first, then dodge rolling away into stealth and rolling again, then bunnyhopping around, and they usually are faster than a GWF even if you use bravery. But if you can show me a vs against a end game perma where you catch him without a ranged stun, i'm in for it
- flourish is slow and easily dodged in end game pvp. Same goes for takedown. GWFs rely on chain prones to max damage and also cause basically they have the most dodgeable encounters, while being the class that can avoid damage the less (unstoppable si used in exchange for damage you take).
I'm testing a mix of threat rush/ punishing charge for mobility, and takedown/IBS. Takedown con be useful to open, expecially Since the animation is faster than flourish and there's a 3 secs CD upon missing. Still, it can be easily dodged in end game PvP.
Destroyers damage come from DP feat, which requires you to actually hit the enemy a lot during unstoppable. With modo 4 nerfs, GWFs will be kit ed a lot, which means an indirect nerf to destroyers damage in PvP top.
But my guess si that, like in the past, good GWFs will find new builds and rotations to make good use of the new weapons they will gwf, lazy players will complain about sprint/ whatever else Going OP cause it's easier than learning to counter the enemy moves, and everything will start over and over again...
i have never ever used roar till module 3 when destroyer purpose was introduced , and have killed perma TR and CW with florish, takedown and IBS b4 mod 2 and FS, takedown and IBS after it.
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
but after mod 4 it will be near impossible to kill perma TR and very hard to kill others without a prone .
and for those who think IBS aoe effect is more than enough to do significant dmg plz tell me hom much dmg it actually does.
as the name stated by takedown if it does not prone whats the use of it naming like that .
and lets talk about using sprint and IBS , both there animation takes .66+ sec , nether they are suitable for dodging after other person has activated there encounters nor IBS is suitable for landing it , till the animation it finishes it allows other party to move way b4 that.
without prone or root effect of roar it will be very hard for GWF to survive in next module.
umm try using FLS and then takedown it still works to land an IBS in pvp, destroyer wont be as tanky as it was in mod 3 most will go sent now.
But my guess si that, like in the past, good GWFs will find new builds and rotations to make good use of the new weapons they will gwf, lazy players will complain about sprint/ whatever else Going OP cause it's easier than learning to counter the enemy moves, and everything will start over and over again...
correct new builds will be found , play style will change but GWF will have to move too much like ranged class , which is not GWF class is made for .
as for build it will mainly revolve around sent and movement and SM path instead of IV since it is useless till further notice from DEV.
and this new build be mainly for surviving rather than killing. which is what pisses me off. we will be put in same category as DC , but DC can heal , we will just run around and prone and try to land IBS. the only GWF who will be able to land there IBS are plyers with net speed below 100ms, any more than that and player will be able to dodge. the stun duration havent been consider for players with 300ms+.
umm try using FLS and then takedown it still works to land an IBS in pvp, destroyer wont be as tanky as it was in mod 3 most will go sent now.
thats currently possible in live after mod 4 FLS dmg is nerfed by 38% i think and it CD is still 15-17 sec depending on recovery , with stuns and not prone so it still is same as florish so useless .
i have never ever used roar till module 3 when destroyer purpose was introduced , and have killed perma TR and CW with florish, takedown and IBS b4 mod 2 and FS, takedown and IBS after it.
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
Before IV was introduced, this was what you'd get if you tried to 1v1 a BiS CW with just flourish and takedown:
And i pretty much recall all the other elite players commenting on this video how the GWF was using wrong setup and wrong rotation. Plus, keep in mind this video shows an old regeneration monster. Nowadays, GWFs do not regenerate like that.
Against permas it's usually the same. Flourish is slow, so 99% of the times the enemy will be dodging while you use it. Now the point is if by luck the timing of the enemy dodge will not match the latency and allow the power to follow him and hit him when he comes out of the dodging/ teleporting animation. Else, your flourish would crush on the enemy's immunity. Takedown is easily dodged, usually.
The other problem is that the base stun is 2 seconds, but then we have tenacity and racial traits for halflings or gear/ passives, further reducing CC duration. Animations on flourish, takedown and IBS should then be changed to be much faster.
I also used to go for a takedown/regenerating strike/IBS combo before tenacity (after tenacity, restoring strike healing was cut in half). Simple reason was, i liked the challenge of catching the enemy with just takedown, and RS animation linked wonderfully with IBS (you use RS and then hit IBS exactly at the end of RS animation when the sword is raised above the GWF's head, you cut all the part of animation from IBS where the toon raises the sword above his head) so i was able to hit with RS and IBS while the enemy was prone from takedown.
With tenacity, prone time was greatly reduced and healing from RS was cut in half, sadly.
Would be even less possible to use it with a 2 seconds stun on takedown...
Stunning flourish is on instigator tree and you would need to sacrifice too much to get it.
Perma TRs, if good, are usually in ITC when fighting melee, then they are rolling away (immune) and going stealth. Pretty much you should be able to time flourish, taking lag into account, to follow them and hit when their rolling animation is over. Or, else, be able to guess how the TR moves during stealth (many of them just bunnyhop in circle, but not the good ones), sprint where he is and flourish. But any half good TR is able to quietly time his dodge roll immunity to match the slow animation of flourish...
Just guessing based on my experience, but it seems to me just a lot of stuff together. Survivability+ CC+ damage all nerfed a lot... We'll see.
I like to adapt, just hope we will be left with enough weapons to fight.
Comments
"If you really want to make a case against GWF vs. HR on Preview, you're going to need to post your exact build vs. their exact build and specify how they are killing you where they couldn't kill you before and how you are failing to kill them where you killed them before."
Ahem. I'm waiting.
if you want to know my gears here they are - Alistair Amak@peterspigel
now show me what you're saying in a video or something like it , because you're already losing your credibility ...
Loadout = skills. You're talking gear & feats. Unrelated and unimportant.
Smh.
Never stated.
A video of someone killing someone with only at-wills, then? Possible, but it requires favorable circumstances.
Asking for that in the first place shows how silly you are, though.
Sorry, what are you asking me to prove? It's pretty unclear with all of your 'bla bla blah'.
I've asserted this:
1) GWFs can kill people without using Roar
2) GWFs can kill people without Takedown doing a Prone
3) HRs can kill people without Thorn Ward
4) CWs can kill people without Shard of the Endless Avalanche
5) TRs can kill people without Bait and Switch
6) You don't need 'one specific loadout' in order to kill someone
If you think 3), 4), 5) or 6) is false, you're clearly inexperienced in PvP. When I offered to make video evidence of 3), you demurred and switched to a different request (of course).
If you'd like to contend that 1) or 2) are false, then you should show a video of yourself, as a GWF, failing to kill anyone in PvP while using those skills in their nerfed state on Preview.
I will happily make a video of 1) and 2) being shown as true, on Live and on Preview.
All you've said so far is 'Show me a video of someone killing someone without CC or DPS', which is obviously absurd and obviously troll-behavior. You're implying that without a bugged Roar and prone on Takedown, GWFs have no CC, which is also clearly false.
So go ahead and ante up a real point on something, and/or real video evidence of yourself failing wildly to kill anyone on Preview while using the two nerfed skills and Unstoppable (along with screenshots of Gear and Build), or let's just forget about all of your "chitchat."
u have been blabbing a lot , u say loadout = skill , in build everything is included from encounters to ur stats . and if u cant understand that , u calling us troll and twisting all facts to ur convenience .
in ur video make sure the other player is equally geared and ur class is GWF using only florish and no takedown or roar.
then we will see how much ur words are true , and dont twist the facts after this , till u present the video dont give any comment on how a GWF class shld be or not, without actual proofs.
Don't see any facts I've twisted, or why I have to restrict my loadout beyond what I've asserted.
GWFs seem to be saying that 'omg I can't win in pvp without Takedown giving a prone and Roar being op-bugged'. I contend that's not true. Rather than delineate how GWFs are completely hamstrung in pvp with those nerfs, you've just attacked my 'words'.
Which shows an inability to defend the point of 'omg GWFs can't win in pvp without Takedown giving a prone and Roar being op-bugged'.
But sure, I'll defend my points with video. Feel free to counter with your own, but I doubt you will.
No, I never said good players don't use CC or DPS. That's absurd.
I said good players don't need to rely on "_____" specific skills to win. Because they have other skills, in their class, that do DPS and CC.
I don't know why that's so difficult for you to grasp.
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the IBS animation takes more than .66 sec to activate, means it need .66sec+ to do dmg after u press the button.
and with tenacity and other control resist buffs coming from ability points and artifact the stun duration can go below .66 sec even if we r getting 2 sec stuns .
so to actually able to land IBS on opponent we need prones cause thats the only sure fire way to dmg them.
sure u can try with all powers u can think of but in the end they dont have as much dmg as IBS.
when 1 isnt able to land his or her IBS we loose our chance to dmg them , with all stuns now there dmg is 3k-8k if it crits , and 500-1.5k as normal dmg against high geared players .
only IBS has dmg which is 2k+ even when it doesnt crit.
so for GWF stuns are useless , if u have ever seen SM GWF fight , there IBS are landed after takedown then using florish after that , the reason is as explained above .
if some1 try there IBS after flourish , IBS will fail 3 out of 5 times.
so plz learn to play GWF or show a video , where GWF is winning 1v1 in preview against any class with approx same loadout with only 1 stun as there stuning encounter.
On the other hand, IBS is actually an AoE spell. Very small area but still noticable. That means that with proper timing u can hit enemies with it even if they escape ur cc early.
Countless of times I recieved the dmg of IBS while i tried to run away from it.
One more point: the cooldown reduction of takedown is too much. In live if u miss u have 2 secs, meaning, I just spam takedown until I hit (even from range lol because of odd animation-hit-trigger-times), then time my roar, then IBS and the target has no chance to escape if hit from takedown. Cc chained all the way and it gets even worse when gwfs daily is up.
So most of the changes to gwfs are reasonable.
If takedown knocks prone, it should not has a shortened cooldown on a miss or with a feat.
Oh yeah, we have no cc breaker too.
thats why non GWF player dont need to comment at feedback , cause they dont know what is GWF all about , all u see is GWF in PVP is OP, the GWF is a class for versatile function so ofc it will look good in PVP due to balance in everything , CW is for PVE so it is OP in PVE. but at the end of the day due to roar being bugged u guys made GWF nerfed down with ur unreasonable whining.
Severe reaction + plaguefire = permanent stamina pool = always have dodges. Just so happens the feat also requires you to be in close proximity to the opponent. There's more than one way to play CW.
First of all, it must be stated that what we talk about is, obviously, 1v1 situations.
Before Iron Vanguard path was introduced, Swordmaster sentinels needed a very specific setup and rotation in End-game to vs permastealth TRs and CWs. Mainly, we're talking about Bravery and Roar. Not cause Roar is bugged, but cause Roar even if not bugged was supposed to root enemies. Takedown and flourish ere not enough to catch up on a perma TR or a good CW. You would be kited forever. There was even a video of a GWF sentinel trying to vs a CW from Lemonade Stand old guild, and getting literally destroyed/ kited cause he was trying to just use flourish-takedown-IBS. GWFs used to go for Bravery (10% more run speed and deflect) and use roar to root the CW/ TR, then sprint, takedown and IBS. And nobody ever complained about it. Destroyers got shorter CDs on these 2 powers, but at the cost of a survivability loss.
Then we got Iron Vanguard and with threat rush and FLS, it was the age of unkitable sentinel tanks we all know.
Now, Flourish, if i recall well, got a range increase which is still not enough to compensate the very slow animation of the power. Plus the latest damage increase, which is useless if the power is too slow to connect and is easily dodged.
CWs can dodge more than ever and permas are as dodgy as ever. Plus we have HRs now.
GWFs do not survive as much as in module 1 cause regeneration is gone due to healing depression and are less capable to troll multiple enemies than a perma TR or pathfinder HR.
Now, IV nerfs on threat rush and FLS, plus JUST A FIX on Roar, would pretty much reset the whole picture, if we talk about kiting/ mobility, to how it was in module 1. Plus GWFs now can't regenerate forever. But hey, Destroyers got a damage boost. So let's nerf takedown damage and Unstoppable for Destroyers. Enough? No.
Take away all prones and further nerf Roar, taking away the rooting effect. Now this makes Roar worthless (chip damage and determination gain is not even good enough for PvE...) and leaves swordmasters with a pretty much useless flourish (any strong TR or CW can dodge it), a ubernerfed takedown, and IBS.
Iron Vanguards with a 17 seconds cooldown ranged stun and 3 charges of threat rush, both ubernerfed in damage, and a ubernerfed takedown.
This is a lot more kitable than module 1 GWFs, even with new sprint stamina drain, since both takedown and flourish alone are easily dodged by CWs, TRs or HRs. Crescendo is a daily and leaves a room for GWFs to activate Unstoppable, or for TRs to activate ITC before the final blow lands to prone them.
If you can post a video of a GWF vsing a strong TR/ CW/ HR on preview and counter his kiting with flourish or takedown, i'll be happy to watch and learn.
Else, please refrain from posting about stuff you may not really know...
Just for ur information, I played a BiS gwf in pvp premades a long time. Not a pseudo BiS gwf who is specced for pve and just switches rings and armor and thinks hes a big player now.
I believe the method for balancing in this game is odd. I would always base changes on current gameplay dynamics instead of inventing whole new feats and mechanics.
That beeing said, my feedback is based on the current situation on live.
The only real balance the gwf needs is a roar fix and maybe 3 charge of TR like on preview.
U dont realize that I am on ur side.
But I am also sick of whining gwfs of how they NEED things to compete. Thats so lol. Gwf is imbalanced as the HR is right now.
But PLS stop that whining attitude. Bad playing gwf are wiping the floor with other classes just using the current cockie cutter destroyer build and button smashing. I litteraly roll my eyes 9 out of ten times when I see a gwf playing against an HR… because the gwf doent know AT ALL how to time encounters or position well.
Btw the comment about cw is pve class and gwf is pvp class… lol?
Now lets talk about HR , in his archery tree he now have 50% of cooldown reduction on its ranged atacks , but wait the other feat gives 50% more dmg in ranged skills, ok they changed one of his Feat path but to bring another Op construction , so whats left , CW were rearranged , but i cant say much about it because i dont playwith this one or even talk about DC , but i have all the other classes , and all i see is no hope for melee game play anymore
^this is essentially what I've been saying from the start of this thread.
I'm sorry, but you lost me. How does plaguefire grant stamina? Also, why did you post this in the GWF thread?
Was replying to a post in the GWF thread. Probably shouldn't but the posts haven't been moved to a better thread yet.
Severe Reaction - When struck you have a 15% chance to repel your attacker 1/2/3/4/5 feet and restore 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina. This only works within 20 feet.
Just so happens that "when struck" also applies to DoT damage. So a constant pf burn is quite a decent stamina return for a CW with this feat. Gives them a bit more flexibility when engaging a GWF on node. While the ideal is obviously to try and land your rotation from a safe distance, a lot of the time you don't have the option and need to contest the point.
Ok, I see the confusion. You meant when the CW is struck with Plaguefire. I thought you meant when the CW uses Severe Reaction and Plaguefire on his own weapons. A better phrasing may have been "severe reaaction + DoT damage on the CW".
For that matter, some Destro builds use "Deep Gash" to stack Destroyer's Purpose, which will also probably proc your CW's Severe Reaction.
You'll be waiting a long time if you think I said "no DPS or CC."
I said no "this specific skill" within the loadout, since you stated that "all pvpers used such and such exact loadout" and did not deviate.
HRs, for example, can use
Fox
Marauder
Constricting
Thorn
Hindering
to great effect (not counting more specific usage of other encounters). That's four loadouts, out of 5 skills, that don't involve Thorn Ward and can work well.
I can repeat the same for CW & GWF, but you're intensely focused on "no DPS or CC" for some reason (perhaps because you equate me deriding 'lazy cc chains' with me saying 'never use CC ever'). Takedown still stuns on Preview (ermahgerd it's still CC wow), don't need Roar (pointless anyway on Preview), etc... etc... etc....
But yeah, I'll do a vid of GWF PvP on Preview. It'll have CC and DPS, but it won't need Roar to do well. Because GWFs haven't needed Roar to do well in Mod3-onward.
To be fair, its impossible to do CN at the moment in preview.
ummmmm no roar is actually just supposed to interupt enemies so you are wrong on that regard read the tooltip. so it is bugged and has never been working as intended. it was never suppose to "root' enemies i have no idea where you got that from so stop misleading everyone with faulty info.nowhere is an interupt a "root" if that was the case feated lunging strike from the tactician tree of GF should work in the same regard as your "root" roar but it doesnt you are so very wrong.
you also forgot to mention that sprinting makes you cc immune now and if you spec/gear right you can have almost a 100% uptime on that , but hey thats besides the point and fyi FLS & takedown give you enough time to land an IBS on an opponent on preview.
personally imho GWF should never have been given the IV path as GF's should have never been given Swordmaster path it's laughable that you can even compare the two to each other vs classes
where as IV GWF gained so much more as opposed to GF's getting swordmaster but this is due to the oversight that the devs never scaled the IV path to GWF dmg. it was a mistake and a cop out on the devs part maybe because they were rushed for time who the hell knows..
and its possible to catch CW after activating florish and using takedown as prone and not stun , i may not have been that good in PVP b4 mod 2 but wasnt that bad too . certainly roar makes it easy but florish and takedown were more than enough to kill perma tr but takedown should do prone to land IBS.
but after mod 4 it will be near impossible to kill perma TR and very hard to kill others without a prone .
and for those who think IBS aoe effect is more than enough to do significant dmg plz tell me hom much dmg it actually does.
as the name stated by takedown if it does not prone whats the use of it naming like that .
and lets talk about using sprint and IBS , both there animation takes .66+ sec , nether they are suitable for dodging after other person has activated there encounters nor IBS is suitable for landing it , till the animation it finishes it allows other party to move way b4 that.
without prone or root effect of roar it will be very hard for GWF to survive in next module.
GWFs so far needed either FLS or Roar against end game permas and CWs. I'd say even more in module 4 since it seems that CWs now can Dodge more and faster. Also, CC chains are not done cause GWFs are lazy. IBS needs the enemy to ne CCed to land, else, Any half decent TR-CW-HR-GF-DC will Dodge or block it in 1v1. Ranged stuns and prones are used has a 1st move for a couple of reasons:
- contesting a node against a strong perma, the only seconds he's vulnerable, he's far from you. He will be in ITC first, then dodge rolling away into stealth and rolling again, then bunnyhopping around, and they usually are faster than a GWF even if you use bravery. But if you can show me a vs against a end game perma where you catch him without a ranged stun, i'm in for it
- flourish is slow and easily dodged in end game pvp. Same goes for takedown. GWFs rely on chain prones to max damage and also cause basically they have the most dodgeable encounters, while being the class that can avoid damage the less (unstoppable si used in exchange for damage you take).
I'm testing a mix of threat rush/ punishing charge for mobility, and takedown/IBS. Takedown con be useful to open, expecially Since the animation is faster than flourish and there's a 3 secs CD upon missing. Still, it can be easily dodged in end game PvP.
Destroyers damage come from DP feat, which requires you to actually hit the enemy a lot during unstoppable. With modo 4 nerfs, GWFs will be kit ed a lot, which means an indirect nerf to destroyers damage in PvP top.
But my guess si that, like in the past, good GWFs will find new builds and rotations to make good use of the new weapons they will gwf, lazy players will complain about sprint/ whatever else Going OP cause it's easier than learning to counter the enemy moves, and everything will start over and over again...
umm try using FLS and then takedown it still works to land an IBS in pvp, destroyer wont be as tanky as it was in mod 3 most will go sent now.
correct new builds will be found , play style will change but GWF will have to move too much like ranged class , which is not GWF class is made for .
as for build it will mainly revolve around sent and movement and SM path instead of IV since it is useless till further notice from DEV.
and this new build be mainly for surviving rather than killing. which is what pisses me off. we will be put in same category as DC , but DC can heal , we will just run around and prone and try to land IBS. the only GWF who will be able to land there IBS are plyers with net speed below 100ms, any more than that and player will be able to dodge. the stun duration havent been consider for players with 300ms+.
thats currently possible in live after mod 4 FLS dmg is nerfed by 38% i think and it CD is still 15-17 sec depending on recovery , with stuns and not prone so it still is same as florish so useless .
Before IV was introduced, this was what you'd get if you tried to 1v1 a BiS CW with just flourish and takedown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIH6FNiwbxI
And i pretty much recall all the other elite players commenting on this video how the GWF was using wrong setup and wrong rotation. Plus, keep in mind this video shows an old regeneration monster. Nowadays, GWFs do not regenerate like that.
Against permas it's usually the same. Flourish is slow, so 99% of the times the enemy will be dodging while you use it. Now the point is if by luck the timing of the enemy dodge will not match the latency and allow the power to follow him and hit him when he comes out of the dodging/ teleporting animation. Else, your flourish would crush on the enemy's immunity. Takedown is easily dodged, usually.
The other problem is that the base stun is 2 seconds, but then we have tenacity and racial traits for halflings or gear/ passives, further reducing CC duration. Animations on flourish, takedown and IBS should then be changed to be much faster.
I also used to go for a takedown/regenerating strike/IBS combo before tenacity (after tenacity, restoring strike healing was cut in half). Simple reason was, i liked the challenge of catching the enemy with just takedown, and RS animation linked wonderfully with IBS (you use RS and then hit IBS exactly at the end of RS animation when the sword is raised above the GWF's head, you cut all the part of animation from IBS where the toon raises the sword above his head) so i was able to hit with RS and IBS while the enemy was prone from takedown.
With tenacity, prone time was greatly reduced and healing from RS was cut in half, sadly.
Would be even less possible to use it with a 2 seconds stun on takedown...
Stunning flourish is on instigator tree and you would need to sacrifice too much to get it.
Perma TRs, if good, are usually in ITC when fighting melee, then they are rolling away (immune) and going stealth. Pretty much you should be able to time flourish, taking lag into account, to follow them and hit when their rolling animation is over. Or, else, be able to guess how the TR moves during stealth (many of them just bunnyhop in circle, but not the good ones), sprint where he is and flourish. But any half good TR is able to quietly time his dodge roll immunity to match the slow animation of flourish...
Just guessing based on my experience, but it seems to me just a lot of stuff together. Survivability+ CC+ damage all nerfed a lot... We'll see.
I like to adapt, just hope we will be left with enough weapons to fight.