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Devoted Cleric Feedback - Discussions
lyaise
Member Posts: 491 Arc User
One of the first points in the Preview Patch Notes is this:
'The Armor Penetration statistic will now correctly apply to all powers. This fixes a number of projectile and lingering area type of powers that were previously not properly benefitting from this stat'.
Even in the midst of all the CW woes going on in their feedback, this is the one thing that gets the following response copied and pasted from there:
General
Armor Penetration should now correctly work on all powers.
Awesome
We need to remove the DC's Self Healing debuff at the least. It has been a bane on the class since day one. Now is the opportunity to remove it and test the change on the preview shard. It is the ideal chance, interacting with the other class changes on there.
Although the Cleric class has not been given any changes in the first Preview Patch Notes, there should still be an official Feedback thread. Absence of any changes can promote as much discussion as skill adjustments.
'The Armor Penetration statistic will now correctly apply to all powers. This fixes a number of projectile and lingering area type of powers that were previously not properly benefitting from this stat'.
Even in the midst of all the CW woes going on in their feedback, this is the one thing that gets the following response copied and pasted from there:
General
Armor Penetration should now correctly work on all powers.
Awesome
We need to remove the DC's Self Healing debuff at the least. It has been a bane on the class since day one. Now is the opportunity to remove it and test the change on the preview shard. It is the ideal chance, interacting with the other class changes on there.
Although the Cleric class has not been given any changes in the first Preview Patch Notes, there should still be an official Feedback thread. Absence of any changes can promote as much discussion as skill adjustments.
...............vote for your favourite expansion..........
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
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They just reworded it, literally, with a nerf to damage dealing heals. They did a 40% damage/healing decrease to essentially all of their healing powers and reworked Righteousness so that it will do ~102% of what they originally had to OTHER players. The result: nothing changed.
Wrong. The things ARE changed. Before DCs had two abilities, that weren't affected by Righteousness - Astral Shield and Forgemaster's Flame. After the so named "rework" they nerfed all healing abilities, so DCs lost half of the selfhealing from AS and FF. So yes, Righteousness rework was an another nerf to DCs.
I stand corrected. I knew about Forgemaster's Flame damage/healing decrease so I mentioned damage, but forgot about AS.
We are the healer class, and yet we heal both ourselves and our allies lesser than other class. In PvE, we are outhealed by others lifesteal, in PvP, GWF and HR with correct build heals themselves more than their incoming damage. Is this the healer/leader class in Neverwinter who always failed to compete with other class?? Who will listen to a leader who lost in every aspect from damage to healing to tankiness in game??
In march 2014, when tenacity patch is out I still remember many people from other classes said cleric will be useless. Although they did defend quite hard for us, their words were ignored and we still got the healing depression just after we got our new paragon: Temp hp based Anointed Champion. I hope in M4, after we suffered for one year and 3 months, we can finally get some buff on our cleric.
I wouldn't hold my breath. Cryptic didn't say a word about any fix/change to our class. Usually they state on what they'll work. This and the fact no dev ever wrote anything about clerics in the last months.
I suppose they like their dcs more than we do
Maybe I worded this incorrectly, but as the subsequent posters have said the DC's self healing is still currently lowered compared to healing others.
Righteousness used to be described as a self healing penalty. The description was changed, but the outcome was more or less the same - except....
Skills that where previously unaffected by the self healing debuff are now reduced.
So not only did the self healing reduction continue, it actually made matters worse for the DC. Another stealth nerf.
I am extremely disappointed that the Preview Notes have not included anything for the DC apart from a tooltip change. This was an opportunity to try out changes to the class on the Preview Shard in line with the other class modifications.
Why should any DC's go on the preview shard now? To check if the new tooltip description works ok?
We will still get hammered in pvp due to our poor self survivability. Even more so by some due to the ArP change.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
PvP is a separate matter, as the DC is weak when alone. But nobody buffs a group as well as a competent DC. Naturally, it would be stupid to allow one to survive if you were going up against a group with one. They should die first. I have never played an MMO where the healer/buffer class did not die first in PvP. I have played MMO's where the healer's self healing was too much such that nobody could kill them. And WoW nerfed the healer. And that is what this game is avoiding. It is not fun playing the class that is killed as a top priority. But when you are powerful, that is what happens.
circa June 2014 to (Unknown Future Date).
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#1 Enemy Team PvP Devoted Cleric
Best rapper 2014
Alpha female
clearly this is an end-game BIS party statement..
DC is played as a support tank class in PvP. We easily fulfill our role, but if other classes are too strong then they're the ones that need to be toned down. And they need to.
As for our feats, there are some really bad and others really good. It's true that venturing into something such as the Virtuous tree really doesn't pay off because barely anything is worth it. However I agree that it doesn't allow for much variety or diversity, and that there's not incredibly amazing and more thought out options like other classes have. It's mostly +5% this, +10% that. It sorts of locks us into only one or two viable "paths", with us having no choice but to pick the least bad option. That needs a fix, I agree.
PvP-wise, too good of a change could make DCs borderline godlike, to the point where a DC+another class can't be beat by two DD class.
When it comes to PvE, I've been doing CN since 10k gearscore. With the effectiveness of life steal and potions, DCs have become close to unnecessary. Active bonuses from companions and the big stat increases from artifacts have made dungeons even more of a cake walk. I am sorry, but I can only make these statements from my point of view, and from my progression as a player in this class.
It's true, many times in PvE have I felt that I wished I could do something more to help my party, we don't have something such as a really strong and big heal (which can be ridiculous to have our healing word tick for 200-300 when IBs does over 13k damage with one hit) that could help our party in moments of bigger danger. At the same time, passive healing and regeneration effects are enough.
#1 Enemy Team PvP Devoted Cleric
Best rapper 2014
Alpha female
these are pretty much some of the best options. i dont think spirit link ever worked properly. lance of faith would be cool but is so limited, the damage bonus is so small and does not effect criticals. Nimbus light is nice because it turns your most dangerous spell into a debuffer as well but not everyone likes aiming the template - and thats assuming your party is strong enough that you dont have to slot another defensive ability. it doesnt work well for younger, lower geared groups that need the protection boost.
CW and GWf are great examples of how picking your feats can define your character. A renegade cw playes differently than an oppressor or thaumaturge since your feat choices alter how your spells work.
Except for a few minor tweaks, practically all clerics play the same. why even bother picking feats? such a waste to the potential of the sytem.
example of a character changing feat choice: Bringer of the divine word - your word of healing has 25/50/75/100/125% healing boost depending on how many feat points assigned.
bearer of the sun: sunburst has 10/20/30/40/50% boost to all of its effects (including pushing distance)
Astral mastery: astral shield now burns enemies for 1/2/3/4/5% of their health (maybe a smaller amount) DOES NOT CAUSE AGGRO
so many opportunies to enable a variety of clerics to be played.
Completely agree, it just seems to be a "DC->pick these feats with little variation" progress path.
I'm reading that they are going to take their time with any Cleric changes, to fully understand the impact of the other class reworks.
BUT SURELY:
You do not adjust some classes without a clear and full understanding of the impact of these changes on all other classes, on solo play, on group play.
To do otherwise just comes across as guesswork.
Cleric changes should be happening now inline with other class adjustments on the preview server. We are not a class that should be subsequently manufactured to compensate for introduced inequalities in the other classes.
The DC has an effect on groups - you know what? So do the other classes, particularly with the current state of lifesteal healing which can outdo DC healing figures.
This leaving the DC until we see what we've done with the other classes is wrong - talk about back of the bus, second rate status. What is the preview shard for if not for assessing the full interaction between the classes.
But now, it's a case of DCs - you just wait there while we attend to our favour classes, we may decide to give you something in the future - or maybe we won't.
Changes to the DC need to be happening now, tested in parallel with the other classes on the preview shard. Not as an end of the day afterthought post Mod-4 launch.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
Being FORCED to play that way because we don't bring anything else to the party (we would be always dead not being tankish) is not WAI. I know that I don't like that role. Staying on a node and run around like a chicken trying to stay alive, is not what I want to do.
I want to be a ****ing healer, and I know I would be good at it given the right tools.
And no, using HW without a faithfull and wis build doesn't qualify as healer. Nobody needs 300HP/sec with the kind of damage you see in pvp (I'm looking at you stupid gwf who thinks to be a god)
And because the DC is the healer class if they tweaking dmg classes a lot they don't want to be throwing in healing changes until thats done because that adds even more variables to the mix.
Well at least thats just my take on what they might be doing. I could be wrong and probably am...who knows
lol.
I've played a cleric since day one, have a healing and dps/debuff cleric, both level 60. My original cleric was 15.5k before taking my enchants off and passing them to other characters. I've also been healing in MMO's since a few weeks into Vanilla WoW.
The only clerics that are fine are the ones that went with a tank build. I used to be able to heal my way out of just about anything, even though I'd take some big hits because my deflect/defense weren't stacked as high. Take more damage, heal more. Take less damage, heal less. There were to separate ways to play, and play well.
Now a healing cleric gets CC'd to death and their HoT's can do absolutely nothing compared to the massive numbers CW's, GWF's, and HR's put on them while they're laying on the ground, or even stunned.
I can still heal anyone out of any sticky situation in PvE just fine, but we really need a PvP rework. BAD. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. Both of my Clerics now sit, retired, while I use my other characters who are actually decent.
I'm still sad to see no Cleric changes in the patch except for BotS now being affected by ArP and a tooltip change... WOO...
I can both tank and heal just fine, being tanky makes your heals more effective on yourself
#1 Enemy Team PvP Devoted Cleric
Best rapper 2014
Alpha female
You are a good sent cleric but what we are saying is healing cleric. I think you may have one but it seems like you don't know the state of healing clerics in pvp now. These 2 branches is quite competitive in pvp last time, if you heal more then taking some more damage isn't a problem, vice versa, if you take only little damage so a weaker healing is ok for you. However, since the healing depression and righteousness rework were introduced, healing clerics no longer can heal themselves with FF and Astral Shield. Thats why i have to make a new toon to play pvp, my old main cleric can die very fast because my heals is only 1/4 of my original power!!!
As a sent cleric, we can take our opponent quite well in 1v1 or 1v2, even you have a lower gs than your FotM target (10k-13k is low in pvp) you can stall him easily. However since the other posts is saying about healing our allies in pvp, i hope we can further discuss on healing allies for better assisting instead of discussing our tankiness.
Btw, which 2 classes can match you in pvp?? DC so OP??
Judging from your signature you belong to a pvp guild. So you play almost only premade. With 2 gwf or more, right? Every party member with 16k gs or more? Yeah, nobody would have any problem with such setup.
And again: you take very small damage so your little heals are enough on you. But being tankish and having a party to support you (you stall a node untill your party arrive and destroy anything on sight) is NOT a funny game play for me. I'd use my GF for that. I've choosen dc for a very different reason.
Sorry for my bad english.
You should listen to her as a more experienced player. It is amazing that everybody thinks what is WAI or not, and wouldn't adapt if the class doesn't suits their desires.
All of you "healer cleric" people want a DC that can heal like 2-4 times more.
OK.
Now I ask you this:
In the only PvP situation that counts, a premade one with geared toons, a DC can already outheal DPS to their team. You HAVE to kill the DC first, or you cannot even kill a CW 2vs1.
And you want MORE heals? What will happen when the "senti" DCs will use those on their tanky builds?
Well, as Hot Pants said earlier, DC will become 100% unkillable.
Listen to Hot Pants.
You got the first part right, but we shall not listen to him nor some other clerics in pvp (including me too if from a sent dc perspective).
We listen to the majority, not the minority who play well in pvp. We are nerfed because our top elites are too OP and immortal but every single nerfs will harm the majority more than the minority. Now, we outheal their DPS because we are abusing a bugged set effect, what if it is fixed?? Will you still insist we can keep our healing ability while going sentinel path??
"All of you "healer cleric" people want a DC that can heal like 2-4 times more."
FYI, that is what we are doing in early M2. We got many indirect ninja nerfs and you didn't know about this. This killed healer clerics in pvp, maybe you joined NW too late so you dont know this thing.
The healing is adjusted because of Tenacity and how tanky people have become. Complaining that some change "killed healer DCs" is like complaining that changes killed teneb swordmaster, or the lashing TR.
Nobody in this game wants to have weak DCs. I like them strong, so they can be depended upon, and can move from point to point to heal, and survive that trip.
DCs becoming tanky is a general aspect of the PvP meta. Even CWs sport 40K HP in PvP. I cannot see what's wrong in it? You need to take advantage of the tools that Cryptic gives you.
Now, for the bugged MH set. There are a few extremely good DC not using one, but PvP sets. They are nearly unkillable 1vs1. They can still keep others alive as well.
All you need is:
- great gear
- good build
- be a good player with knowledge of your class
All classes need this. DCs are not unique in that matter.
About "the little guy will suffer because game is tuned for BiS toons".
This is NOT an issue with the DC! This is purely an issue with matchmaking. A r5 DC with lessers should be able to outheal the damage from a r5 CW or GWF. But if you mach these people in PvP with r10s and perfects, they will get one-shotted.
Again. It is a matchmaking issue. Tuning the game after BiS toons is a great practice. Every toon should make it there in time.
You think that if someone whine than he should be a bad player.
But you are very wrong.
I have a 17+k gs, I play from open beta, I have played mmorpg in the last 10 year or so, I have been always an healer, as such I have been in the some of the best progression guilds in my country in WOW.
Now, you can tell me that this or that is a magnificent dc, but playing in premade with all toons over 17gs, even the worst dc could shine. The problem is not there.
And again, being tanky and running around spamming tiny heals don't qualify as an healer.
If you are a dc and you like it, good for you. Everything is fine then.
I know I don't. I should be able to survive with my own heal, not using a particular "bugged" set, or stacking impressive quantity of defensive stats or using a particular build.
Belive me, whatever your friend DC does, every end game dc can do. Some of us don't like it and are trying to survive as a pure healer. In pug nonetheless.
1. Bad comparison. You cannot compare these paths like this. We are talking about class mechanics and powers but you compared our class mechanic with other class FotM play style. If i want to compare, i will say it in this form: Cleric without heals = CW without control = TR without stealth = GWF without dps and tankiness = GF without block = HR without mobility. It is part of our class mechanic and cannot be compared like this.
2. So you think a r5 DC with lessers in pvp spec can outheal any r5 + lessers CW and GWF? No, you cant. Not only outheal dude, you cant even stall them. You will die in 1 minute if you are good, die in 10 seconds normally if they know how to play. I leveled tons of DC alts so i know this very well.
Btw, i do agree with you all other things you said. DC with good skills can outplayed the BIS opponent (not kill of cuz), but this is very rare...
If you can really outplay him. Everything being equal, dc will die sooner or later.
Random chat with a backcapping GWF... We was 4v5 as our cw left after died twice in the beginning of match... lost the match and dropped from invincible overlord to overlord... cannot rank up again despite winning... sad...
That said, considering screenshot above, DC gets on top of it's potential reaching 12k GS, and any further increase doesn't make him significantly stronger. 5% more deflection, 3% more regeneration or 5k more HP - that's what you get for gearing your DC up to 17k.
The only 2 kinds of people I see saying DCs are fine are "always premade DCs" and "poor DPSs I keep smashing my face on the keyboard/throwing knives from stealth/pressing my Shift 5 times per second but nothing happens".
I think you are absolute right. You can't survive a 17k gs gwf destroyer as a 17k dc. End of discussion. You can stall him, but it won't be too long untill you will have everything in cooldown. And then you are toasted.
But even if it was possible, IT IS SO ****ING BORING. I really don't know how tanky dc can enjoy the game. You don't do anything else than survive. Sometime you cast a ridicule heal on your 18k gwf who is fighting a 14k cw, while saying to yourself "I saved that gwf, I'm an healer!!"