DCs lost their healing as a surviving tool, this is why all DCs go "sentinel" build nowadays. I was enjoying my healing DC with 2k defense, 1k regen and 28k HP. I was able to outheal the damage I've been taking through the battles, now the only way to stay alive is to go pure defensive and hope you've got perfect teammates.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
First, I too find playing a tank cleric sucks. I mean really, any other class could do that better (not sure about cw, but all others, yeah) if they pump all juice into "tankyness" as clerics do, and still would be able to provide some dmg or cc, so what's the point?
Also, this playstyle may be good for pvp (at least, the best what a cleric has atm), but it won't get you anywhere in pve. In dungeons and other party content people think you are doing fine if only you drop AS every now and then, so this is still not that bad, unless you really want to be useful, and not only make people think you are. Soloing, on the other hand.... welcome to the world of "lfg gnarlroot caves, because I could, but I have to go in 2 hours".
Healing? It is pathetic in pvp and totally not needed in pve, unless we are talking about solo leveling, but I am also not sure about that one. Last time I was leveling a cleric it was before artifacts.
In pvp your healing works almost fine on your team mates, but rigteousness should be gone. Actually, I think this one simple change could fix the class (for pve too). Or even better, make it so that spells are not affected by healing depression (yes I know, not one of those going to happen).
In dungeons better heals would not change anything, since it is more like moral support than anything else anyway. I would not mind buffs that have bigger radius however, you know, if divine glow was at least as big as AS for example.
But what I really think should be done with a cleric? More dmg. And please dont start with "you want to dps, roll a dps class", everyone needs to kill things, the fact that clerics are the worse class for that is the reason it is the least played class.
If you would rather underperform than listen to Hot Pants who has the experience of hundreds of premades, fine by me. You don't want to accept that DC is BOTH heals and tankyness.
People come here with good intentions and to show you that DC performing extremely good is possible, yet to would rather shun them away, because it is not how YOU like the class to be, instead of listening.
By the way.
Saying that any DC would do well in a premade environment with geared people is an insult. If you're not skilled&geared, you will be singled out and die in 1-2 rotations.
Please learn to respect the members in your community that have achieved something in this game. Hot Pants is one of them, as one of the top DCs in the game.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
More dmg. And please dont start with "you want to dps, roll a dps class", everyone needs to kill things, the fact that clerics are the worse class for that is the reason it is the least played class.
I think the problem lays in the fact that cyptic has gone too far giving more dps to dps class. This has made every content just a speed race.
And in contrast we feel to be slooow as molasses
The only 2 kinds of people I see saying DCs are fine are "always premade DCs" and "poor DPSs I keep smashing my face on the keyboard/throwing knives from stealth/pressing my Shift 5 times per second but nothing happens".
Absolute majority of DC players agrees that DC needs a lot of improvements. And here comes a player, that have never played a DC and a DC, that heals 19k GWFs, and say that DCs are fine. Pathetic.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Please learn to respect the members in your community that have achieved something in this game. Hot Pants is one of them, as one of the top DCs in the game.
You are the one who shows no respect. I think that I have almost everything this game has to offer. But I don't like to premade.
I don't play with my little gang of 18k gwfs, tr and hr. And I have won my fair share of pvp fight with me 17k dc and 4 under 13k against superior team.
But for you I am surely inferior to your friend DC.
Where is your logic?
People come here with good intentions and to show you that DC performing extremely good is possible (...)
That reminds me of a menzo-drow cleric friend that is not playing anymore. She used to repeat that everything is fine, clerics are doing great etc. "So you don't care your only dmg daily cannot crit?" (that was the case back then) "Really? I didn't notice" "and that you debuff your team mates?" "Oh that. But I can heal them!"
Best of luck to you then creating the pure healer DC!
Meanwhile, I will be immortal while under the tender care of PvP DCs I play with. Glad to have them around me.
Not much else to say.
So why are you still here?
Don't you have some facerolling to do with your uber/tanky/supaheala/allwrappedinone dc?
Because you know, the dc you play with, use a setup only they know! And they really know how to dodge!
Not like us, who don't really understand a game as simple as NW!!
Best of luck to you then creating the pure healer DC!
Meanwhile, I will be immortal while under the tender care of PvP DCs I play with. Glad to have them around me.
Not much else to say.
Which of course shows that you have a set of premade people that you tag along with. Now before we go down this brilliant top end DC road again, let me say there is nothing wrong consistently grouping with the same top end people.
But it is not the only play style - and nor should it be. The game is an mmo and should effectively accommodate a wide variety of play styles.
I would suggest that any pre-made group of high gear score characters will have far more success than failure, this is not rocket science and has been the case in basically all mmo's since they where first created. But I also suggest this does not cover the majority of the player base.
Having a top gear score is precisely that - being at the top. But of course for there to be a top, there also has to be a considerable amount of lower geared players - which tend to form the majority of a games population.
The issue with the DC is not in an absolute top end pre-made group - because at that stage the people you are likely to face will have lesser stats, sometimes significantly so, and this does not give a true reflection.
The issues with the DC impact the larger player base underneath this absolute top end - and these are the majority. Away from the near maximum gear score group, there are many more people who do have problems with the current status of the DC, and some people come on here to highlight the class deficiencies at the popular level.
Now it is an easy answer to say all DC's should be 18k gear score, but that is unrealistic in a wide playerbase. It also avoids a significant point that several other classes do not need to get anywhere near this gear score to be very effective - far more than an equivalent DC.
The DC does need serious attention. The class has been adjusted down over a long period of time, whilst other classes have received boost after boost. Mod-4 should see some changes to dps classes, but I fear that it will only see a switch from one OP dps class to a different one.
The DC is supposed to be a leader class, an essential class at all levels - but it isn't. Having a top geared group actually reduces the need for the DC, not promote it, as high powered dps classes burn down everything whilst abilities like lifesteal easily keep them going. In fact, you may see the actual DC healing results in a group are lower than dps classes. The question at that stage of course is - why have the DC at all and not just another high geared dps to make the group even better?
So, there is nothing wrong with having a top end pre-made group. People have put time and effort into the game to reach that level. But by it's nature, it is the absolute top end and not the majority - and it is at that main level that the DC class really has problems compared with other classes of the same level.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited June 2014
Summary
DCs are a support class. Thus, we work best in well-coordinated 'Premade' teams in both PVE and PVP. We are not well-suited for solo play. As with any class, build and playstyle depend on your team needs.
General note: it's important to distinguish poor match-making from class imbalance.
Multi-player PVE
Top-end gear party: run High Prophet, hallowed ground, divine glow, etc. Be a dmg buffer. Very useful.
Low-end gear party: run Miracle Healer. Heal some, buff some. Save lives. Very useful.
Clerics are useful in parties, but the DC will have to adjust playstyle depending on team-makeup and task difficulty.
Single-player PVE
Top-end geared DC: run High Prophet, Perfect Vorpal, hallowed ground, divine glow, chains, daunting, terrifying insight if DO. Go full DPS. Suitable speed, not great.
Low-end geared (lvl-60) DC: can be painfully slow
Solo PVE content for DCs is at-best boring and relatively slow. At worst, it's painful and takes much longer than other classes. Clerics are support classes, so are naturally better suited for party-play.
Premade PVP Domination
Balanced teams: Save players, cap nodes, kite, debuff, buff, and my favorite: be the leader-class and call the shots (rotations, etc). DCs are very valuable in coordinated, evenly matched premades.
Imbalanced teams: Any class better >= DC, though it doesn't matter in these lopsided matches.
When people like ayroux, Hot Pants, etc say Clerics are fine, they are referring to the impact a DC has on a well-coordinated well-balanced Premade fight.
Solo-Q PVP Domination
DCs are a support class. We rely on our party just as our party relies on us. If we q solo, we are subject to imbalanced teams and no coordination. The lack of coordination hinders a support class's ability to thrive. It also means we can't provide one of our best functions: defensive signal caller.
I don't q-solo because it defeats the point for me. I play PVP because I enjoy executing strategies, rotations, adjusting mid-game, learning from mistakes, yelling at friends, etc. Thus, it's pointless to solo-q.
PVP Builds / Playstyle
There are 2 widely used effective builds currently: (1) Miracle Healer 'Healer' spec and (2) PVP gear 'Tank' spec
Thus, for those that prefer a healing DC, run (1). Keep in mind that this spec requires a lot of skill. Specifically, footwork, node awareness, situational awareness, stamina monitoring, using terrain, calling for allies to help prone, etc due to its relative squishy-ness. Especially vs. similar-geared destroyer GWFs.
Premades
Many have assumed/commented that those running Premades and commenting in this thread lack perspective because their team is carrying them against lesser-geared opponents. While true that Premades often get matched against random-qs, that's not the point these players are making. Rather, they are saying that in equally matched Premades, a skilled DC is highly effective and valuable.
Sometimes being highly effective shows up as having a 1:30 k:d Not the most satisfying thing to see after a good match.
Mod 4
No significant changes for DC. Too early to tell what will eventually happen to the other classes.
The one thing I'd like to see reverted: the mounting. It takes way too long and effectively nerfs roaming classes like DCs. If any changes are made to the MH set bonus, then I'd support some buff to the Faithful tree.
Currently, i didn't bother to exploit the buggy MH set for extra healing. However, i feel a major difference between 2 of my pvp clerics. My Elf as my previous main have a full profound set and reach 13k gs long time ago, however he is much more squishy as last time i spec him as pvp burst healer with slightly low hp and defensive abilities (than traditional sent cleric, still higher than most of clerics anyway). I can die in 2 rotations of a good GWF, maybe longer if i am lucky. I think healer in pvp should get some buff, we got too much nerfs here.
On the other hand, my new alt Elves has no problem in pvp. He can tank, kite and do some small healing fairly well, since healing is nerfed we can only increase our tankiness by increasing DR and HP. Btw, i did also join some duo/tri and sometimes full premade with my guildies if i fedup with epic pug teammates. From my observations i agree to all the others saying cleric is valuable in high end premade. Your presence is to support your team, if your team is weak they are not worthing for you to support. Vise versa, a strong team who knows what you want and what you need is the best asset you can have in pvp.
But, is this means that cleric, especially those who like to heal have to
1. Spec pure defensively
2. Have to tank alot instead of heal
3. Always premade with the one you know (preferably someone experienced or pvp alot)
4. Never join pvp unless reach 18k gs??
No. Absolutely not!! I hate the feeling when we found a possibility to play cleric differently and they nerfed it to hell... Not to mention tons of broken and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> feats and ninja nerfs we got now. If they can do some roll back, i can use my Elf to show you what is called OP healing from a cleric. I have to throw away my own healing build after they are nerfed so much.
Once i love and used to save my allies, but now i am just a ridiculous tank and have to see every teammates die beside me. This is not funny, i prefer to see a immortal unkillable 10% HP cw under my heals rather than just standing and no one comes to hit me after several attempts to kill me...
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited June 2014
DCs can still bring allies from near 0 to 100% HP pretty quickly. While HD hurt our heals, it also made our heals more important since allies can't self-heal as effectively.
Sounds like you built a tanky DC.
For healing, try Miracle Healer. It heals quickly, but you'll be squishy and will need to play more elusive. Can't tank against destroyer GWFs of similar or higher gear/skill.
This is an oft repeated misconception. This game shouldn't have "support classes" as they are not needed. Ever. A DC should be able to solo content and, dare I say, 1v1 on nodes in PvP. How? Healing and damage mitigation (ie astral shield). The problem currently is the DC can barely heal herself/himself and has beyond horrible damage output.
Solution is remove DC's self healing nerf. Also a slight boost to DPS or feats to increase DPS. Lastly DC's need some encounter to become immune and/or break CC.
Many have assumed/commented that those running Premades and commenting in this thread lack perspective because their team is carrying them against lesser-geared opponents.
Premades have no room to comment as they (1) make up a tiny, tiny fraction of the community and (2) have a team specially built to make up for their weaknesses (thus making them look more awesome than they actually are).
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
This is an oft repeated misconception. This game shouldn't have "support classes" as they are not needed. Ever. A DC should be able to solo content and, dare I say, 1v1 on nodes in PvP. How? Healing and damage mitigation (ie astral shield). The problem currently is the DC can barely heal herself/himself and has beyond horrible damage output.
Solution is remove DC's self healing nerf. Also a slight boost to DPS or feats to increase DPS. Lastly DC's need some encounter to become immune and/or break CC.
Premades have no room to comment as they (1) make up a tiny, tiny fraction of the community and (2) have a team specially built to make up for their weaknesses (thus making them look more awesome than they actually are).
It's not a misconception, but it is a point up for review. Some think support classes shouldn't exist. Some think they should. Right now, the DC is a support class in the way it functions. This is good and bad. Luckily, there are many other non-support classes to play if one prefers a different style. I'm glad support classes exist.
I'd love buffs on my DC, but the reasoning I see so far isn't sufficient.
Premade Vs Premade is the benchmark. Everything else is subject to other unrelated issues/variables such as gear differences, communication differences, poor match-making, general lack of coherent strategy and tactics, afk-ers, etc. Premade vs Premade matches are the fair fights by which class PVP effectiveness should be evaluated.
It's not a misconception, but it is a point up for review. Some think support classes shouldn't exist. Some think they should. Right now, the DC is a support class in the way it functions. This is good and bad. Luckily, there are many other non-support classes to play if one prefers a different style. I'm glad support classes exist.
I also like buffing people, I would like healing too if it wasn't so weak, but that's not the point. The point is, every class should be able to enjoy the content equally. I am not saying classes should not be different from each other, but if one of them needs support (support class = needs to be supported o.O) when everyone else is doing fine by their own, something is not right here, don't you think so? Just look at all those foundry quests where you read in description: "if you are undergeared or a cleric, choose easy option".
Seriously, the "support class" is more often than not used to justify the fact that the class is underperforming. Or is the percentage of people that need l2p significantly higher among clerics than among other classes?
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Once i love and used to save my allies, but now i am just a ridiculous tank and have to see every teammates die beside me. This is not funny, i prefer to see a immortal unkillable 10% HP cw under my heals rather than just standing and no one comes to hit me after several attempts to kill me...
That's exactly why I don't like being a tanky dc.
You people who like to win, and that's the reason you play, keep your tanky build and run only premade, where everybody DON'T need your heals. You should know that your party would have won with any other class with your gs instead of you.
In a premade with 19k gwfs or tr or hr, you are not essential. You are there just to annoying the opponent team. But a gwf would do more good to your party.
I still like to heal so I'll go on as a full healer build, even with HD and all this ****.
(...) keep your tanky build and run only premade, where everybody DON'T need your heals. You should know that your party would have won with any other class with your gs instead of you.
In a premade with 19k gwfs or tr or hr, you are not essential. You are there just to annoying the opponent team. But a gwf would do more good to your party.
.
this ^ ^
Of course, you can keep denying it and live in your world of illusion.
It's not a misconception, but it is a point up for review. Some think support classes shouldn't exist. Some think they should. Right now, the DC is a support class in the way it functions. This is good and bad. Luckily, there are many other non-support classes to play if one prefers a different style. I'm glad support classes exist.
I'd love buffs on my DC, but the reasoning I see so far isn't sufficient.
Premade Vs Premade is the benchmark. Everything else is subject to other unrelated issues/variables such as gear differences, communication differences, poor match-making, general lack of coherent strategy and tactics, afk-ers, etc. Premade vs Premade matches are the fair fights by which class PVP effectiveness should be evaluated.
Premade Vs Premade is the benchmark. Everything else is the majority of gameplay
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
Premade Vs Premade is the benchmark. Everything else is the majority of gameplay
Yes, that is what i said in very early in the post. The key word is: "MAJORITY". If anyone doubt what we said and want to deny, try roll a cleric or make a new cleric. You will see the difference between equal gs healer cleric and sent cleric. Despite having high gs and skills, healer cleric performs at least 200% worse than the sent cleric.
This is what i get from my perspective:
Elf:
1. Leaderboard 1.5k+ page
2. Can be cc-ed to death by any class in one or two rotation
3. Get furious very fast due to frequent dying
Elves:
1. Leaderboard 50 -200 pages
2. Very hard to die, some weaker guys just stand beside afking cuz they know we cannot kill anyone
3. Get bored very fast because you just heal yourself and dodging here and there.
Anyway, since the devs are changing the other 4 classes, we may stand or lose our chance to compete with other classes in pvp. More information is needed to make our conclusion, however, it is undeniable that majority DC is suffering and we are one of the weakest class in pvp.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
That's exactly why I don't like being a tanky dc.
You people who like to win, and that's the reason you play, keep your tanky build and run only premade, where everybody DON'T need your heals. You should know that your party would have won with any other class with your gs instead of you.
In a premade with 19k gwfs or tr or hr, you are not essential. You are there just to annoying the opponent team. But a gwf would do more good to your party.
I still like to heal so I'll go on as a full healer build, even with HD and all this ****.
Many have assumed/commented that those running Premades and commenting in this thread lack perspective because their team is carrying them against lesser-geared opponents. While true that Premades often get matched against random-qs, that's not the point these players are making. Rather, they are saying that in equally matched Premades, a skilled DC is highly effective and valuable.
Premade vs equal Premade. DCs are needed to heal and are very effective. If one would like to raise issue with the remaining 'majority of [PVP] gameplay', then do so. Poor match-making, other OverPowered classes (HR, GWF), etc are legit things that make a DCs PVP experience not-so-fun. But they do not, in themselves, necessitate DC buffs.
Iyon the Dark
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Premade vs equal Premade. DCs are needed to heal and are very effective. If one would like to raise issue with the remaining 'majority of [PVP] gameplay', then do so. Poor match-making, other OverPowered classes (HR, GWF), etc are legit things that make a DCs PVP experience not-so-fun. But they do not, in themselves, necessitate DC buffs.
Have you ever stopped and run some math on your heals? With a tanky build? With healing depression on? Do me a favor, stop saying you are an effective healer, and come back when you have some number to back it up.
And I didn't say you as DC are useless. Just that whatever class you would bring (above all gwf, tr and hr) instead of you, would be better.
As in pve nowadays, people bring us just out of habit (well, actually they like our buff/debuff....but I don't think we bring a 20% average increase in dps to justify our presence), but we aren't really needed.
But ehi, are you happy with the status quo? More power to you!
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Have you ever stopped and run some math on your heals? With a tanky build? With healing depression on? Do me a favor, stop saying you are an effective healer, and come back when you have some number to back it up.
And I didn't say you as DC are useless. Just that whatever class you would bring (above all gwf, tr and hr) instead of you, would be better.
As in pve nowadays, people bring us just out of habit (well, actually they like our buff/debuff....but I don't think we bring a 20% average increase in dps to justify our presence), but we aren't really needed.
But ehi, are you happy with the status quo? More power to you!
Being an effective DC isn't just about healing. Look at my first post on page 5. Under the section 'Premade PVP Domination'.
Yes, I run ACT. Yes, my heals are effective enough and actually more needed now than before tenacity.
Properly built GWFs and HRs are a little overpowered right now. They are desired in parties above all other classes. That doesn't mean DCs should be buffed.
There are 2 widely used effective builds currently: (1) Miracle Healer 'Healer' spec and (2) PVP gear 'Tank' spec
Thus, for those that prefer a healing DC, run (1). Keep in mind that this spec requires a lot of skill. Specifically, footwork, node awareness, situational awareness, stamina monitoring, using terrain, calling for allies to help prone, etc due to its relative squishy-ness. Especially vs. similar-geared destroyer GWFs.
Being an effective DC isn't just about healing. Look at my first post on page 5. Under the section 'Premade PVP Domination'.
Yes, I run ACT. Yes, my heals are effective enough and actually more needed now than before tenacity.
Properly built GWFs and HRs are a little overpowered right now. They are desired in parties above all other classes. That doesn't mean DCs should be buffed.
Regarding tank vs healing playstyles:
I think you are whitewashing the whole DC issue. You keep saying DC is ok - but this is only from a small perspective and nowhere near the full range of gameplay in NW.
All I see is your narrow view that whilst in your top geared premade group the DC is ok. You know what? Any class in a top geared pre-made group is ok - that is so far from what the majority of people experience that you just need to shut up about it. Your point has been made, repeatedly, that in a top geared pre-made this class is ok - well no **** sherlock, that's breaking news! - Not.
Now for the rest of the playerbase who are not included in your self-congratulatory little gang, the experience is significantly different - you need to open your eyes and accept this.
If you are so blinkered toward your little elitist group that you cannot, well then just keep quiet. No one wants to hear yet again a "we are top geared we are great" post.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited June 2014
You're missing the point again. I'm not talking about effectiveness in a OP party vs pugs. I'm talking about being effective in equal premade vs equal premade.
In an all-things equal match with team coordination, a DC is effective and valuable.
Again, to repeat for the 4th time, I am not talking about a DC being effective in 19kgs party vs 7k gs party. I'm talking about a DCs effectiveness in a balanced match.
If you want to discuss the ineffectiveness of DCs in imbalanced matches, that's fine. But address the issue: bad match-making and other overpowered classes. DCs shouldn't be buffed to account for bad match-making or a couple overpowered classes.
No significant changes for DC. Too early to tell what will eventually happen to the other classes.
The one thing I'd like to see reverted: the mounting. It takes way too long and effectively nerfs roaming classes like DCs. If any changes are made to the MH set bonus, then I'd support some buff to the Faithful tree.
Iyon the Dark
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You're missing the point again. I'm not talking about effectiveness in a OP party vs pugs. I'm talking about being effective in equal premade vs equal premade.
In an all-things equal match with team coordination, a DC is effective and valuable.
Again, to repeat for the 4th time, I am not talking about a DC being effective in 19kgs party vs 7k gs party. I'm talking about a DCs effectiveness in a balanced match.
If you want to discuss the ineffectiveness of DCs in imbalanced matches, that's fine. But address the issue: bad match-making and other overpowered classes. DCs shouldn't be buffed to account for bad match-making or a couple overpowered classes.
From the last section of my first post:
You keep quoting yourself like you are saying something we don't understand and that your opinion is something valuable.
But it is just that, your opinion. You don't bring any number to support your thesis that you are selling as the truth.
Then again I have crunched some numbers, and DC fall short. Those little green numbers you see on your screen are good for healing a gwf in unstoppable. But for nothing else given the damage you see nowadays
I don't know if the changes to other classes, will bring us up to par. I can only hope.
If you want to discuss the ineffectiveness of DCs in imbalanced matches, that's fine. But address the issue: bad match-making and other overpowered classes.
You are talking about a perfect environment and team built around a BiS DC specially made to play in the single mode PvP. It is a completely inflexible setup and constitutes for less than 1% of the DC population. Basically you are seeking out a rare exception to a very general rule as the vast majority of DCs do not fit that perfect storm and never will. They play mostly PvE and pug PvP. In that environment they are the worst of the worst regardless of skill level and gear. Blaming everyone on their team for not understanding how to properly cater to their massive weaknesses is blatant avoidance of the real issues with the class.
The DC, as it is, sucks. It has a nerf imposed on it to prevent self healing that, in PvP, is compounded by another healing nerf imposed on everyone. A GWF or HR have abilities that allow them to heal better and faster (even after Mod 4). Pointing the finger at "OP builds" is a red herring as a GF can easily kill a DC.
Summary: the DC is not a "support" class. It is a "requires support" class.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
And another thing. The general consensus is that the leaderboard is based on ELO ranking. In this game, from what I have understood, ELO is calculated on the performance of the team you are in.
If all these things are true, we can say that teams with dc lose more often than team without dc. This would explains why you see so few dc in the first positions of the leaderboard. Way less than the classes distribution.
Josiahiyon you are one of the highest tier cleric and yet i understand what you said very well. However, IMO DC is not as valuable as other classes in pug pvp and always need great support from his teammates. Thus, this makes DC very poor and weak when they got less to none support from his teammates. What the crowds keep repeating is in equal situation, when you didn't get any support and have to solo defend a node, every class can do better than a DC. Besides, we are weak in every aspect and can only function as a temporary node holder.
Although you suggested in the best situation, where we are playing a high end premade match, DC can perform very well and our heals will be appreciated a lot, however the majority of the player base out of 6 classes know and agree that DC is heavily handicapped in pvp. Therefore we can stop arguing about DC usefulness in the best situation for us, which is in a good premade team. Instead we should think ways to improve DC especially from the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> feats, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> item stats and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hardcap on our encounters. These will make our discussion more constructive. Thank you for popping in anyway.
Comments
First, I too find playing a tank cleric sucks. I mean really, any other class could do that better (not sure about cw, but all others, yeah) if they pump all juice into "tankyness" as clerics do, and still would be able to provide some dmg or cc, so what's the point?
Also, this playstyle may be good for pvp (at least, the best what a cleric has atm), but it won't get you anywhere in pve. In dungeons and other party content people think you are doing fine if only you drop AS every now and then, so this is still not that bad, unless you really want to be useful, and not only make people think you are. Soloing, on the other hand.... welcome to the world of "lfg gnarlroot caves, because I could, but I have to go in 2 hours".
Healing? It is pathetic in pvp and totally not needed in pve, unless we are talking about solo leveling, but I am also not sure about that one. Last time I was leveling a cleric it was before artifacts.
In pvp your healing works almost fine on your team mates, but rigteousness should be gone. Actually, I think this one simple change could fix the class (for pve too). Or even better, make it so that spells are not affected by healing depression (yes I know, not one of those going to happen).
In dungeons better heals would not change anything, since it is more like moral support than anything else anyway. I would not mind buffs that have bigger radius however, you know, if divine glow was at least as big as AS for example.
But what I really think should be done with a cleric? More dmg. And please dont start with "you want to dps, roll a dps class", everyone needs to kill things, the fact that clerics are the worse class for that is the reason it is the least played class.
People come here with good intentions and to show you that DC performing extremely good is possible, yet to would rather shun them away, because it is not how YOU like the class to be, instead of listening.
By the way.
Saying that any DC would do well in a premade environment with geared people is an insult. If you're not skilled&geared, you will be singled out and die in 1-2 rotations.
Please learn to respect the members in your community that have achieved something in this game. Hot Pants is one of them, as one of the top DCs in the game.
I think the problem lays in the fact that cyptic has gone too far giving more dps to dps class. This has made every content just a speed race.
And in contrast we feel to be slooow as molasses
Btw, some sort of cc immunity would be nice too, like for example, Anointed Army working even if you get hit.
I don't know and don't wanna know who is that imba DC which has played millions of premade matches and thinks that DCs are fine because
Absolute majority of DC players agrees that DC needs a lot of improvements. And here comes a player, that have never played a DC and a DC, that heals 19k GWFs, and say that DCs are fine. Pathetic.
You are the one who shows no respect. I think that I have almost everything this game has to offer. But I don't like to premade.
I don't play with my little gang of 18k gwfs, tr and hr. And I have won my fair share of pvp fight with me 17k dc and 4 under 13k against superior team.
But for you I am surely inferior to your friend DC.
Where is your logic?
That reminds me of a menzo-drow cleric friend that is not playing anymore. She used to repeat that everything is fine, clerics are doing great etc. "So you don't care your only dmg daily cannot crit?" (that was the case back then) "Really? I didn't notice" "and that you debuff your team mates?" "Oh that. But I can heal them!"
Meanwhile, I will be immortal while under the tender care of PvP DCs I play with. Glad to have them around me.
Not much else to say.
So why are you still here?
Don't you have some facerolling to do with your uber/tanky/supaheala/allwrappedinone dc?
Because you know, the dc you play with, use a setup only they know! And they really know how to dodge!
Not like us, who don't really understand a game as simple as NW!!
Which of course shows that you have a set of premade people that you tag along with. Now before we go down this brilliant top end DC road again, let me say there is nothing wrong consistently grouping with the same top end people.
But it is not the only play style - and nor should it be. The game is an mmo and should effectively accommodate a wide variety of play styles.
I would suggest that any pre-made group of high gear score characters will have far more success than failure, this is not rocket science and has been the case in basically all mmo's since they where first created. But I also suggest this does not cover the majority of the player base.
Having a top gear score is precisely that - being at the top. But of course for there to be a top, there also has to be a considerable amount of lower geared players - which tend to form the majority of a games population.
The issue with the DC is not in an absolute top end pre-made group - because at that stage the people you are likely to face will have lesser stats, sometimes significantly so, and this does not give a true reflection.
The issues with the DC impact the larger player base underneath this absolute top end - and these are the majority. Away from the near maximum gear score group, there are many more people who do have problems with the current status of the DC, and some people come on here to highlight the class deficiencies at the popular level.
Now it is an easy answer to say all DC's should be 18k gear score, but that is unrealistic in a wide playerbase. It also avoids a significant point that several other classes do not need to get anywhere near this gear score to be very effective - far more than an equivalent DC.
The DC does need serious attention. The class has been adjusted down over a long period of time, whilst other classes have received boost after boost. Mod-4 should see some changes to dps classes, but I fear that it will only see a switch from one OP dps class to a different one.
The DC is supposed to be a leader class, an essential class at all levels - but it isn't. Having a top geared group actually reduces the need for the DC, not promote it, as high powered dps classes burn down everything whilst abilities like lifesteal easily keep them going. In fact, you may see the actual DC healing results in a group are lower than dps classes. The question at that stage of course is - why have the DC at all and not just another high geared dps to make the group even better?
So, there is nothing wrong with having a top end pre-made group. People have put time and effort into the game to reach that level. But by it's nature, it is the absolute top end and not the majority - and it is at that main level that the DC class really has problems compared with other classes of the same level.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
DCs are a support class. Thus, we work best in well-coordinated 'Premade' teams in both PVE and PVP. We are not well-suited for solo play. As with any class, build and playstyle depend on your team needs.
General note: it's important to distinguish poor match-making from class imbalance.
Multi-player PVE
Clerics are useful in parties, but the DC will have to adjust playstyle depending on team-makeup and task difficulty.
Single-player PVE
Solo PVE content for DCs is at-best boring and relatively slow. At worst, it's painful and takes much longer than other classes. Clerics are support classes, so are naturally better suited for party-play.
Premade PVP Domination
When people like ayroux, Hot Pants, etc say Clerics are fine, they are referring to the impact a DC has on a well-coordinated well-balanced Premade fight.
Solo-Q PVP Domination
DCs are a support class. We rely on our party just as our party relies on us. If we q solo, we are subject to imbalanced teams and no coordination. The lack of coordination hinders a support class's ability to thrive. It also means we can't provide one of our best functions: defensive signal caller.
I don't q-solo because it defeats the point for me. I play PVP because I enjoy executing strategies, rotations, adjusting mid-game, learning from mistakes, yelling at friends, etc. Thus, it's pointless to solo-q.
PVP Builds / Playstyle
There are 2 widely used effective builds currently: (1) Miracle Healer 'Healer' spec and (2) PVP gear 'Tank' spec
Thus, for those that prefer a healing DC, run (1). Keep in mind that this spec requires a lot of skill. Specifically, footwork, node awareness, situational awareness, stamina monitoring, using terrain, calling for allies to help prone, etc due to its relative squishy-ness. Especially vs. similar-geared destroyer GWFs.
Premades
Many have assumed/commented that those running Premades and commenting in this thread lack perspective because their team is carrying them against lesser-geared opponents. While true that Premades often get matched against random-qs, that's not the point these players are making. Rather, they are saying that in equally matched Premades, a skilled DC is highly effective and valuable.
Sometimes being highly effective shows up as having a 1:30 k:d
Mod 4
No significant changes for DC. Too early to tell what will eventually happen to the other classes.
The one thing I'd like to see reverted: the mounting. It takes way too long and effectively nerfs roaming classes like DCs. If any changes are made to the MH set bonus, then I'd support some buff to the Faithful tree.
Iyon the Dark
On the other hand, my new alt Elves has no problem in pvp. He can tank, kite and do some small healing fairly well, since healing is nerfed we can only increase our tankiness by increasing DR and HP. Btw, i did also join some duo/tri and sometimes full premade with my guildies if i fedup with epic pug teammates. From my observations i agree to all the others saying cleric is valuable in high end premade. Your presence is to support your team, if your team is weak they are not worthing for you to support. Vise versa, a strong team who knows what you want and what you need is the best asset you can have in pvp.
But, is this means that cleric, especially those who like to heal have to
1. Spec pure defensively
2. Have to tank alot instead of heal
3. Always premade with the one you know (preferably someone experienced or pvp alot)
4. Never join pvp unless reach 18k gs??
No. Absolutely not!! I hate the feeling when we found a possibility to play cleric differently and they nerfed it to hell... Not to mention tons of broken and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> feats and ninja nerfs we got now. If they can do some roll back, i can use my Elf to show you what is called OP healing from a cleric. I have to throw away my own healing build after they are nerfed so much.
Once i love and used to save my allies, but now i am just a ridiculous tank and have to see every teammates die beside me. This is not funny, i prefer to see a immortal unkillable 10% HP cw under my heals rather than just standing and no one comes to hit me after several attempts to kill me...
Sounds like you built a tanky DC.
For healing, try Miracle Healer. It heals quickly, but you'll be squishy and will need to play more elusive. Can't tank against destroyer GWFs of similar or higher gear/skill.
Iyon the Dark
This is an oft repeated misconception. This game shouldn't have "support classes" as they are not needed. Ever. A DC should be able to solo content and, dare I say, 1v1 on nodes in PvP. How? Healing and damage mitigation (ie astral shield). The problem currently is the DC can barely heal herself/himself and has beyond horrible damage output.
Solution is remove DC's self healing nerf. Also a slight boost to DPS or feats to increase DPS. Lastly DC's need some encounter to become immune and/or break CC.
Premades have no room to comment as they (1) make up a tiny, tiny fraction of the community and (2) have a team specially built to make up for their weaknesses (thus making them look more awesome than they actually are).
It's not a misconception, but it is a point up for review. Some think support classes shouldn't exist. Some think they should. Right now, the DC is a support class in the way it functions. This is good and bad. Luckily, there are many other non-support classes to play if one prefers a different style. I'm glad support classes exist.
I'd love buffs on my DC, but the reasoning I see so far isn't sufficient.
Premade Vs Premade is the benchmark. Everything else is subject to other unrelated issues/variables such as gear differences, communication differences, poor match-making, general lack of coherent strategy and tactics, afk-ers, etc. Premade vs Premade matches are the fair fights by which class PVP effectiveness should be evaluated.
Iyon the Dark
I also like buffing people, I would like healing too if it wasn't so weak, but that's not the point. The point is, every class should be able to enjoy the content equally. I am not saying classes should not be different from each other, but if one of them needs support (support class = needs to be supported o.O) when everyone else is doing fine by their own, something is not right here, don't you think so? Just look at all those foundry quests where you read in description: "if you are undergeared or a cleric, choose easy option".
Seriously, the "support class" is more often than not used to justify the fact that the class is underperforming. Or is the percentage of people that need l2p significantly higher among clerics than among other classes?
That's exactly why I don't like being a tanky dc.
You people who like to win, and that's the reason you play, keep your tanky build and run only premade, where everybody DON'T need your heals. You should know that your party would have won with any other class with your gs instead of you.
In a premade with 19k gwfs or tr or hr, you are not essential. You are there just to annoying the opponent team. But a gwf would do more good to your party.
I still like to heal so I'll go on as a full healer build, even with HD and all this ****.
this ^ ^
Of course, you can keep denying it and live in your world of illusion.
Premade Vs Premade is the benchmark. Everything else is the majority of gameplay
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
Yes, that is what i said in very early in the post. The key word is: "MAJORITY". If anyone doubt what we said and want to deny, try roll a cleric or make a new cleric. You will see the difference between equal gs healer cleric and sent cleric. Despite having high gs and skills, healer cleric performs at least 200% worse than the sent cleric.
This is what i get from my perspective:
Elf:
1. Leaderboard 1.5k+ page
2. Can be cc-ed to death by any class in one or two rotation
3. Get furious very fast due to frequent dying
Elves:
1. Leaderboard 50 -200 pages
2. Very hard to die, some weaker guys just stand beside afking cuz they know we cannot kill anyone
3. Get bored very fast because you just heal yourself and dodging here and there.
Anyway, since the devs are changing the other 4 classes, we may stand or lose our chance to compete with other classes in pvp. More information is needed to make our conclusion, however, it is undeniable that majority DC is suffering and we are one of the weakest class in pvp.
To Reiterate:
Premade vs equal Premade. DCs are needed to heal and are very effective. If one would like to raise issue with the remaining 'majority of [PVP] gameplay', then do so. Poor match-making, other OverPowered classes (HR, GWF), etc are legit things that make a DCs PVP experience not-so-fun. But they do not, in themselves, necessitate DC buffs.
Iyon the Dark
Have you ever stopped and run some math on your heals? With a tanky build? With healing depression on? Do me a favor, stop saying you are an effective healer, and come back when you have some number to back it up.
And I didn't say you as DC are useless. Just that whatever class you would bring (above all gwf, tr and hr) instead of you, would be better.
As in pve nowadays, people bring us just out of habit (well, actually they like our buff/debuff....but I don't think we bring a 20% average increase in dps to justify our presence), but we aren't really needed.
But ehi, are you happy with the status quo? More power to you!
Being an effective DC isn't just about healing. Look at my first post on page 5. Under the section 'Premade PVP Domination'.
Yes, I run ACT. Yes, my heals are effective enough and actually more needed now than before tenacity.
Properly built GWFs and HRs are a little overpowered right now. They are desired in parties above all other classes. That doesn't mean DCs should be buffed.
Regarding tank vs healing playstyles:
Iyon the Dark
I think you are whitewashing the whole DC issue. You keep saying DC is ok - but this is only from a small perspective and nowhere near the full range of gameplay in NW.
All I see is your narrow view that whilst in your top geared premade group the DC is ok. You know what? Any class in a top geared pre-made group is ok - that is so far from what the majority of people experience that you just need to shut up about it. Your point has been made, repeatedly, that in a top geared pre-made this class is ok - well no **** sherlock, that's breaking news! - Not.
Now for the rest of the playerbase who are not included in your self-congratulatory little gang, the experience is significantly different - you need to open your eyes and accept this.
If you are so blinkered toward your little elitist group that you cannot, well then just keep quiet. No one wants to hear yet again a "we are top geared we are great" post.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
In an all-things equal match with team coordination, a DC is effective and valuable.
Again, to repeat for the 4th time, I am not talking about a DC being effective in 19kgs party vs 7k gs party. I'm talking about a DCs effectiveness in a balanced match.
If you want to discuss the ineffectiveness of DCs in imbalanced matches, that's fine. But address the issue: bad match-making and other overpowered classes. DCs shouldn't be buffed to account for bad match-making or a couple overpowered classes.
From the last section of my first post:
Iyon the Dark
You keep quoting yourself like you are saying something we don't understand and that your opinion is something valuable.
But it is just that, your opinion. You don't bring any number to support your thesis that you are selling as the truth.
Then again I have crunched some numbers, and DC fall short. Those little green numbers you see on your screen are good for healing a gwf in unstoppable. But for nothing else given the damage you see nowadays
I don't know if the changes to other classes, will bring us up to par. I can only hope.
You are talking about a perfect environment and team built around a BiS DC specially made to play in the single mode PvP. It is a completely inflexible setup and constitutes for less than 1% of the DC population. Basically you are seeking out a rare exception to a very general rule as the vast majority of DCs do not fit that perfect storm and never will. They play mostly PvE and pug PvP. In that environment they are the worst of the worst regardless of skill level and gear. Blaming everyone on their team for not understanding how to properly cater to their massive weaknesses is blatant avoidance of the real issues with the class.
The DC, as it is, sucks. It has a nerf imposed on it to prevent self healing that, in PvP, is compounded by another healing nerf imposed on everyone. A GWF or HR have abilities that allow them to heal better and faster (even after Mod 4). Pointing the finger at "OP builds" is a red herring as a GF can easily kill a DC.
Summary: the DC is not a "support" class. It is a "requires support" class.
If all these things are true, we can say that teams with dc lose more often than team without dc. This would explains why you see so few dc in the first positions of the leaderboard. Way less than the classes distribution.
Although you suggested in the best situation, where we are playing a high end premade match, DC can perform very well and our heals will be appreciated a lot, however the majority of the player base out of 6 classes know and agree that DC is heavily handicapped in pvp. Therefore we can stop arguing about DC usefulness in the best situation for us, which is in a good premade team. Instead we should think ways to improve DC especially from the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> feats, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> item stats and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hardcap on our encounters. These will make our discussion more constructive. Thank you for popping in anyway.