It's hard to imagine a new class coming out given the way things currently are. A few of the "old" class paragon paths/builds badly need reworking/tweaking (non pro-player Thaum CW damage in general - if all specs of a primary controller/secondary striker class is supposed to do this much damage then one can only imagine how much damage a primary striker/secondary controller class is supposed to be able to do, Oppressor - Entangling Force nerf more or less killed Alacrity synergy + capstone power now nowhere near as useful as other paths,
That's because the CW is actually a misnomer... there's nothing in the feat tree about control at all.
And trust me the actual GWF as a striker is achieving its PvE goals very well in the way it should its single target damage far surpasses the damage done by Mage AoEs. This one has finally reached its potential in PvE.
And there's NOTHING you can do with a CW to improve any of the actual control powers like... Entangling Force. Its actually a primary AoE striker with secondary control.
The ONLY thing you can do with any CW feat build is to increase damage in one way or another. That's all there is in that Path even on the Oppressor path to build with. You have one passive that can increase Control by a whopping 15%, but when all the control powers are 3 seconds or less... that's barely even an eye blink. There is just nothing in any tree to increase any control powers.
BUT in the damage way..... its actually very versatile in pretty much all trees. You don't need to build a Thaum to do great AoE damage. In fact you're better off served with a hybrid build using both Renegade and Thaum paths with the capstone feat of neither one.
I'm sorry but the actual class power and feat structure is only a bunch of AoE with the ability to add very brief (like 1-3 second control components) that's it... that's all it ever was. You nuke like crazy to build up AP for a single control daily everyone knows as Singularity.
The actual control powers were just a bunch of low level spells lower in the tree that cannot be adjusted. The stuff that can be adjusted are all the higher level spells like Shards. It also has a LOT of armor debuffing feats that increase damage.
That's it... it was never designed as a controller in the first place that was people trying to make it into something it was not.
So its actually not very good at it outside of some single target control like Icy Rays, Chill Strike, and Entangling force... but those are not adjustable through the feat tree, and are set in stone. The high level spells are all damage spells with only Steal Time being the exception. But even then that's actually a Damaging AoE as well.
If the Warlock came out as an Actual Controller class primary, damager secondary... THEN it would have a place in the grand scheme of things.
But that's what you'd actually have to do at this point. In short, they need to just rename the CW class entirely to just Wizard or Sorcerer, because you cannot make a primary controller out of that class, its just not designed for it in the feat or power tree.
Its a primary AoE damager... and a secondary controller.
BUT in that way, they did build a very good Wizard/Sorcerer class accurately enough to represent one as an AoE nuke specialist with secondary control powers.
non-perma TRs need more support, GFs in general need to be rewarded better for actually doing their job, DoT skills not affected by Armor Penetration, many enchants still not working, etc etc) and the newest class is both underperforming in PvE and too powerful in many PvP situations (good repositioning powers, check; fast stamina gain, check; massive mitigation, check; high defense/deflect/regen, check; multiple daze/root/snare effects rivaling a CW's, check; cloak/invisbility, check; able to damage opponent while running around, check... gods, what the hell were you people thinking).
TRs would be just fine if they hadn't nerfed the hell out of their damage over PvP a while back, which of course destroyed them in PvE and forced the idiotic Perma stealth builds.
And I agree...
I'm getting tired of this PvP nerfing HAMSTER coming back and ruining the PvE game. Its getting old and I agree with you.
Sounds like someone never designed an adequate warlock. Properly tweaked, a 4.0 warlock can stand toe-to-toe with any striker. Oh, and warlocks were never AoE spellcasters...they focus on one target.
But if iirc Warlocks also had a lot of party buffs. In any case, when I played 4ed maybe it was me, but I viewed the Warlock as "OP" :P
I'd like something really alternative, like tha Bard. Now that I'd like to see <my money is on a 50% very good or very bad implementation, no in-betweens>
Actually "DPS CW" is a trend that only really started to take off around late mod1/mod2, when high damage weapons became much more available. Before all that, many CWs really were control wizards, and quite a few of them were really good at it. I don't know what makes you think powers like Icy Rays and Chill Strike are good control skills since they easily count among the worst ones.
A Thaum makes an argument for a CW that focuses on more damage/debuffs and less control since its paragon path improves powers that deal high damage but do little actual control - powers like Icy Rays, Shard of Endless Avalanche, etc. In PvE these powers have little use outside of doing massive single target/AoE damage. Shard even screws up repositioning. If it weren't for the crazy good damage, non Thaums would avoid it like Ice Storm.
There was a time when being a good CW meant you could keep mobs repositioned constantly on a small area, holding them there using powers like Icy Terrain/Entangling Force/Steal Time/Arcane Singularity + good timing, and using Chill Strike/Steal Time/Enfeeble/Oppressive Force on mobs immune to repositioning/control. Anyone who remembers the old Epic Pirate King boss fight knows that CWs were once more or less required in that fight (bar overgeared players) due to the sheer amount of adds that spawned, and even though they didn't top damage charts then (though a few good ones and many well-geared ones did) everyone knew and respected the CW's contribution once the fight was over. Anyone who's ever played at that point in the game will never agree that the CW is not a good control class. It was glorious how one single character could hold 20+ mobs at bay while the rest of his team tried to take down the boss/support him as best they could. Such a feat would not be possible if the CW had been (at its core) a badly designed control class.
Nowadays CWs mostly just use Arcane Singularity as their only control skill (many don't even have the decency to use that anymore) and try to argue that their class is actually a striker class instead of an control class. That needs to change, one way or another.
Oppressor's main claim to fame back in the day was Alacrity. Because, even then, all CWs were capable of doing decent damage (and had more powers that broke the 5-target-cap than they do now) a good Oppressor would be able to spam Entangling Force/Icy Terrain more than any other CW (if you know how Icy Terrain interacted with items like the GPF enchant you understand the implication). They also had godly AP generation thanks to the old Entangling Force - no other CW could chain dailies so easily or use a new one even while the previous one was still up. It was a legitimately powerful paragon path back in the day even though it didn't focus on DPS. Nowadays it's nowhere near as powerful as it used to be, at least mechanically. The latest tabbed Entangling Force nerf was definitely uncalled for. The survivability feats are still nice but everyone has access to those. In any case there's not even any point in trying to bring the old Oppressor back, considering how even a Thaum/Rene now has access to double dailies thanks to the DC artifact. The paragon path badly needs reworking.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But if iirc Warlocks also had a lot of party buffs. In any case, when I played 4ed maybe it was me, but I viewed the Warlock as "OP" :P
I'd like something really alternative, like tha Bard. Now that I'd like to see <my money is on a 50% very good or very bad implementation, no in-betweens>
Must be thinking of another class, because I'm looking at all of the warlock powers in 4th edition and there aren't any party buffs.
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isoplethMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited May 2014
If they add druids or bards I'll have no choice but to buy a new character slot. (That coming soon icon looks like barbarian but it probably doesn't mean anything.)
Warlock kinda bores me though. The only D&D warlock I'm familiar with was from NWN 2 and all I did there was cast chilling tentacles all over the place because that's all I needed to do to win >.>
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
Warlock kinda bores me though. The only D&D warlock I'm familiar with was from NWN 2 and all I did there was cast chilling tentacles all over the place because that's all I needed to do to win >.>
Keep in mind that NWN2 did....alienate quite a few fans of NWN1, normal casters had to stack Prestige Classes, and the Warlock was closer to a 'Weapon User', mechanics wise.
If they add druids or bards I'll have no choice but to buy a new character slot. (That coming soon icon looks like barbarian but it probably doesn't mean anything.)
Warlock kinda bores me though. The only D&D warlock I'm familiar with was from NWN 2 and all I did there was cast chilling tentacles all over the place because that's all I needed to do to win >.>
The "Coming Soon" icon has no relation to what class is coming next.
It will be Warlock, Druid and then Paladin.
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cromejohnsenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 207Arc User
edited May 2014
are they good for debuffing? otherwise we would get an open beta tr who throws diseases instead of daggers.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Actually "DPS CW" is a trend that only really started to take off around late mod1/mod2, when high damage weapons became much more available.
Actually that's not really true, the reality is, we were making it into something it was not... and yes I remember it.
It could always do that damage, And I was doing that kind of damage or capable of doing that kind of damage even back then. Though we were not running 15k gear scores back then. That much is true.
A 12k Gear Score was actually really great back in the day. I remember it.
A Thaum makes an argument for a CW that focuses on more damage/debuffs and less control since its paragon path improves powers that deal high damage but do little actual control - powers like Icy Rays, Shard of Endless Avalanche, etc. In PvE these powers have little use outside of doing massive single target/AoE damage. Shard even screws up repositioning.
Yes, but what you're missing is...... that you can actually feat those...... and they improve damage. You cannot feat the control powers and improve them. You can only get side benefits from them like... AP gain (which was nerfed). You can't feat them to improve them.
There was a time when being a good CW meant you could keep mobs repositioned constantly on a small area, holding them there using powers like Icy Terrain/Entangling Force/Steal Time/Arcane Singularity + good timing, and using Chill Strike/Steal Time/Enfeeble/Oppressive Force on mobs immune to repositioning/control. .
Yes I remember it... but..... you cannot feat any of those to improve them in the actual CW tree. hey're set in stone and most of them are lower level powers.
You had to MAKE it work... you don't.... and never had to make damage work it was already in the tree...
No way to feat them in the Tree, no way to improve their duration OR any type of control.
Its NOT in there... You're basically talking about using mostly low level SINGLE target powers combining them in a ton of different ways to achieve an effect they do not have by nature... AoE control... and build a ton of AP so you can pop Singularity.
Do you realize the ACTUAL CW feat tree a fool can walk in and create a damager... you cannot however create a True controller EVEN with Oppressor path.
We were MAKING it work... not because it was actually IN the feat tree... but because we WANTED it to be that way... it wasn't actually in there.
Anyone who remembers the old Epic Pirate King boss fight knows that CWs were once more or less required in that fight (bar overgeared players) due to the sheer amount of adds that spawned, and even though they didn't top damage charts then (though a few good ones and many well-geared ones did) everyone knew and respected the CW's contribution once the fight was over
You know I went back and played it in a lower gear score without the Boons...
It was SOOO much easier to just nuke the hell out of it. I have NO idea why that never occurred to us back then. Probably because we got stuck on the "CONTROL" part of the name... Then forgot... errm... no its actually really just a nuking Wizard...
Anyone who's ever played at that point in the game will never agree that the CW is not a good control class.
If they could see what's IN the ACTUAL feat tree... they'd be looking at us all screwy going ... why the hell did you ever do that?
They would be turning around and saying to us... HOW in the hell did you use a bunch of crappy control powers that have a short duration... that you couldn't feat OR improve with anything on... and had to be combined with 5 other powers just to work properly.
Because yeah... we were making it into something it wasn't.
Because, even then, all CWs were capable of doing decent damage (and had more powers that broke the 5-target-cap than they do now) a good Oppressor would be able to spam Entangling Force/Icy Terrain more than any other CW (if you know how Icy Terrain interacted with items like the GPF enchant you understand the implication). They also had godly AP generation thanks to the old Entangling Force - no other CW could chain dailies so easily or use a new one even while the previous one was still up. It was a legitimately powerful paragon path back in the day even though it didn't focus on DPS.
Admittedly you could generate a ton of AP back then... prior to the Action Point nerf on CWs
......you COULD actually manipulate the CW into a class it was not... and it would actually work but that nerf killed that entirely.
The only place I've found you can still use the old SingBotting method (which is what you're talking about) is Dread Vault T2. You still need two CWs to pull it off unlike only one needed back in the day. But at least there's few enough mobs to be able to pull off the old Entangling/Shield Pop/Repel/Steal Time/Singularity method.
But those things were never in the Tree in the first place,
.....all you can feat, all you can make... is an AoE damager.
The rest of the stuff you have to seriously combine in multiple combinations 3 ways from sideways just to make them work. You dont' have to do that with the AoE Damage. That all works well on its own without help.
That should tell you its a Primary AoE Striker... and only a secondary Controller.
"We were making it into something it was not?" "Low level powers?" "You cannot feat any of those..."
Is this guy serious?
The only defense you have for your argument is "it takes effort/planning/timing/proper management of powers to control things but it only takes a button press to attack, therefore CW are primary strikers/secondary controllers".
By your logic clerics would be also DPSers. Do you know clerics have a grand total of less than five pure support/defensive powers? Everything else requires them to constantly reposition/attack - and do decent/high damage (=healing). Being a good cleric is not something that happens automatically, it takes effort/planning/timing/proper management of powers.
I'm not even going to bother discussing this.
Oh, and I highly doubt you "remember" those times, since the obvious reason why CWs just didn't "nuke everything" then was because several dungeons were very different (and more challenging) back then. Gear was definitely a factor, but it wasn't the only one. When adds kept spawning every 3 seconds or so you had to up your game because any momentary break in control = potential party wipe.
If you all you did was repeatedly unload all your powers at once like CWs these days seem to be doing you'd be left with nothing to cast once new adds spawned and you'd be guaranteeing yourselves a wipe unless your people had godly gear.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Oh, and I highly doubt you "remember" those times, since obvious reason why CWs just didn't "nuke everything" then was because several dungeons were very different (and more challenging) back then. Gear wasn't the only factor. When adds kept spawning every 3 seconds or so you had to up your game and any momentary break in control that CWs these days just love to take for granted = party wipe.
Well that's too bad for you... you take it or leave it,
It doesn't change the fact.... you had to make something out of NOTHING back then. ITS NOT IN THERE... THERES NO CONTROL POWER FEATS... NEVER WAS.
There's lots of Damage spells and feats to improve damage... but the base power only has quick 1 second prones, some with none at all. Outside that you've got 2 low level single target spells with 3 second Freeze or Hold. You've got Icy Terrain that takes 6 Ticks to Freeze ANYtHING or even ACT as a control spell.
We've got Steal Time that is the ONLY AoE control spell that stuns for a whopping 3 seconds... BUT does a good 10k AoE damage.... and you can't even extend it with Feating...
That's IT and there's NOTHING in the feats to improve that. You had to MAKE something out of nothing and stack a ton of spells you couldn't change, couldn't Feat and couldn't TOUCH and had to combine.... just to be a controller that NEVER WAS...
That's why you had to do all that just to make ONE control power... it ISNT IN THERE and never WAS.
And its no more than any other class had. They've all got their Stuns, one second prones, and knockbacks and multiple target one at that. But because he's not called the "control cleric" That class never did stupid things like that or try to combine stuns, slows, and prones.
That's ALL we've ever had. You are going on a NAME ONLY.
And you're going by an argument that can be summarized as "if it attacks, it must be a dpser".
As for your "most feats improve damage" argument, the simple fact of the matter is that control is a core mechanic in many CW powers. Everything CWs do has a control aspect associated to it. Even Magic Missile helps builds arcane stacks quickly, which boosts arcane control powers.
The problem is that control is being taken for granted because atm everyone is just doing too much damage, and that has to change.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
And you're going by the argument that if it has the word "control" in it it must be "controlller". Its not and never was. Its an AoE damager with few control components. That's it.
EDIT: and no...AoE DAMAGE is the central core mechanic of the CW and is what you feat and build with those are the building blocks you have to work with you cannot build anything else...
....it has control components tacked on... that cannot be changed or feated and the other classes have those too... its not a controller outside of some of its Dailys.
I'm still waiting for the paladin class. And I have this crazy idea this new module will bring 2 new classes. Just a guess, but here is why:
1) Its a major event not only limited to NO but involving the whole D&D franchise. The module is suppose to be big. Perhaps bigger than all previous ones.
2) The previous module didnt add any new class. This usually means they didnt have "a" new class ready for it.
I'd like to see the paladin being added much like the range, meaning switching between sword/shield and two handed sword but if thats not the case and they go more close to the rules, I am sure they will pick the protecting paladin and add one more tank to the game.
probably warlock or druid, since we see fighting druid and warlock NPCs, meaning their mechanics are in progress.
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited June 2014
Well, Zulkir Baltreyo in the Phantasmal Fortress can turn into a Warlock (using a dagger as 'mainhand focus', so I'd expect some 'Ritual Blade' weapon class for them), and Mako (the Tiefling) has always been a Warlock, and even more so in the Dread Ring Introduction.
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well, Zulkir Baltreyo in the Phantasmal Fortress can turn into a Warlock (using a dagger as 'mainhand focus', so I'd expect some 'Ritual Blade' weapon class for them), and Mako (the Tiefling) has always been a Warlock, and even more so in the Dread Ring Introduction.
Zulkir turns into Makos, not just a random warlock.
As for the blade, they are called pact blades. It is one of the implement options for warlocks in 4th edition.
Back during beta there were warlock and ranger gear drops. So with all likelyhood warlock is next class. Personally I would love to see them do monk but unlikely. My best guess after warlock would be bard or druid.
Hey, I was wondering what the 7th class will be in Neverwinter. I was thinking some kind of engineer. What do you guys think?
D&D always lacked this kind of class, it has been conceived as "sword&sorcery", not a "steampunk" game. There have been some handbooks that allowed some engineer-ish classes IIRC, but they had entirely dedicated settings.
Forgotten Realms is quite "classic" as a setting and, despite seeing mechanical crabs and lobsters, I suppose they are meant to be just a curiosity. I doubt Cryptic will follow that route for classes and gameplay.
I think druid would be best. They can use the nature kit like the hunter-ranger and also share some characteristics with the cleric. Warlock is cool, but too closely tied to Wizard, in my opinion. Druid would add more variety.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
While I like this game a good bit I find it hard to believe how few classes there are. Most D&D videogames spoil a player for choice. I'm sure many people have gone on about their favorite class being left out. It has me a little worried for the game that more than a year after launch that iconic classes such as paladins barbarians and bards haven't even been discussed let alone added to the game.
Comments
That's because the CW is actually a misnomer... there's nothing in the feat tree about control at all.
And trust me the actual GWF as a striker is achieving its PvE goals very well in the way it should its single target damage far surpasses the damage done by Mage AoEs. This one has finally reached its potential in PvE.
And there's NOTHING you can do with a CW to improve any of the actual control powers like... Entangling Force. Its actually a primary AoE striker with secondary control.
The ONLY thing you can do with any CW feat build is to increase damage in one way or another. That's all there is in that Path even on the Oppressor path to build with. You have one passive that can increase Control by a whopping 15%, but when all the control powers are 3 seconds or less... that's barely even an eye blink. There is just nothing in any tree to increase any control powers.
BUT in the damage way..... its actually very versatile in pretty much all trees. You don't need to build a Thaum to do great AoE damage. In fact you're better off served with a hybrid build using both Renegade and Thaum paths with the capstone feat of neither one.
I'm sorry but the actual class power and feat structure is only a bunch of AoE with the ability to add very brief (like 1-3 second control components) that's it... that's all it ever was. You nuke like crazy to build up AP for a single control daily everyone knows as Singularity.
The actual control powers were just a bunch of low level spells lower in the tree that cannot be adjusted. The stuff that can be adjusted are all the higher level spells like Shards. It also has a LOT of armor debuffing feats that increase damage.
That's it... it was never designed as a controller in the first place that was people trying to make it into something it was not.
So its actually not very good at it outside of some single target control like Icy Rays, Chill Strike, and Entangling force... but those are not adjustable through the feat tree, and are set in stone. The high level spells are all damage spells with only Steal Time being the exception. But even then that's actually a Damaging AoE as well.
If the Warlock came out as an Actual Controller class primary, damager secondary... THEN it would have a place in the grand scheme of things.
But that's what you'd actually have to do at this point. In short, they need to just rename the CW class entirely to just Wizard or Sorcerer, because you cannot make a primary controller out of that class, its just not designed for it in the feat or power tree.
Its a primary AoE damager... and a secondary controller.
BUT in that way, they did build a very good Wizard/Sorcerer class accurately enough to represent one as an AoE nuke specialist with secondary control powers.
TRs would be just fine if they hadn't nerfed the hell out of their damage over PvP a while back, which of course destroyed them in PvE and forced the idiotic Perma stealth builds.
And I agree...
I'm getting tired of this PvP nerfing HAMSTER coming back and ruining the PvE game. Its getting old and I agree with you.
But if iirc Warlocks also had a lot of party buffs. In any case, when I played 4ed maybe it was me, but I viewed the Warlock as "OP" :P
I'd like something really alternative, like tha Bard. Now that I'd like to see <my money is on a 50% very good or very bad implementation, no in-betweens>
A Thaum makes an argument for a CW that focuses on more damage/debuffs and less control since its paragon path improves powers that deal high damage but do little actual control - powers like Icy Rays, Shard of Endless Avalanche, etc. In PvE these powers have little use outside of doing massive single target/AoE damage. Shard even screws up repositioning. If it weren't for the crazy good damage, non Thaums would avoid it like Ice Storm.
There was a time when being a good CW meant you could keep mobs repositioned constantly on a small area, holding them there using powers like Icy Terrain/Entangling Force/Steal Time/Arcane Singularity + good timing, and using Chill Strike/Steal Time/Enfeeble/Oppressive Force on mobs immune to repositioning/control. Anyone who remembers the old Epic Pirate King boss fight knows that CWs were once more or less required in that fight (bar overgeared players) due to the sheer amount of adds that spawned, and even though they didn't top damage charts then (though a few good ones and many well-geared ones did) everyone knew and respected the CW's contribution once the fight was over. Anyone who's ever played at that point in the game will never agree that the CW is not a good control class. It was glorious how one single character could hold 20+ mobs at bay while the rest of his team tried to take down the boss/support him as best they could. Such a feat would not be possible if the CW had been (at its core) a badly designed control class.
Nowadays CWs mostly just use Arcane Singularity as their only control skill (many don't even have the decency to use that anymore) and try to argue that their class is actually a striker class instead of an control class. That needs to change, one way or another.
Oppressor's main claim to fame back in the day was Alacrity. Because, even then, all CWs were capable of doing decent damage (and had more powers that broke the 5-target-cap than they do now) a good Oppressor would be able to spam Entangling Force/Icy Terrain more than any other CW (if you know how Icy Terrain interacted with items like the GPF enchant you understand the implication). They also had godly AP generation thanks to the old Entangling Force - no other CW could chain dailies so easily or use a new one even while the previous one was still up. It was a legitimately powerful paragon path back in the day even though it didn't focus on DPS. Nowadays it's nowhere near as powerful as it used to be, at least mechanically. The latest tabbed Entangling Force nerf was definitely uncalled for. The survivability feats are still nice but everyone has access to those. In any case there's not even any point in trying to bring the old Oppressor back, considering how even a Thaum/Rene now has access to double dailies thanks to the DC artifact. The paragon path badly needs reworking.
Must be thinking of another class, because I'm looking at all of the warlock powers in 4th edition and there aren't any party buffs.
Warlock kinda bores me though. The only D&D warlock I'm familiar with was from NWN 2 and all I did there was cast chilling tentacles all over the place because that's all I needed to do to win >.>
Keep in mind that NWN2 did....alienate quite a few fans of NWN1, normal casters had to stack Prestige Classes, and the Warlock was closer to a 'Weapon User', mechanics wise.
The "Coming Soon" icon has no relation to what class is coming next.
It will be Warlock, Druid and then Paladin.
Actually that's not really true, the reality is, we were making it into something it was not... and yes I remember it.
It could always do that damage, And I was doing that kind of damage or capable of doing that kind of damage even back then. Though we were not running 15k gear scores back then. That much is true.
A 12k Gear Score was actually really great back in the day. I remember it.
Yes, but what you're missing is...... that you can actually feat those...... and they improve damage. You cannot feat the control powers and improve them. You can only get side benefits from them like... AP gain (which was nerfed). You can't feat them to improve them.
Yes I remember it... but..... you cannot feat any of those to improve them in the actual CW tree. hey're set in stone and most of them are lower level powers.
You had to MAKE it work... you don't.... and never had to make damage work it was already in the tree...
No way to feat them in the Tree, no way to improve their duration OR any type of control.
Its NOT in there... You're basically talking about using mostly low level SINGLE target powers combining them in a ton of different ways to achieve an effect they do not have by nature... AoE control... and build a ton of AP so you can pop Singularity.
Do you realize the ACTUAL CW feat tree a fool can walk in and create a damager... you cannot however create a True controller EVEN with Oppressor path.
We were MAKING it work... not because it was actually IN the feat tree... but because we WANTED it to be that way... it wasn't actually in there.
You know I went back and played it in a lower gear score without the Boons...
It was SOOO much easier to just nuke the hell out of it. I have NO idea why that never occurred to us back then. Probably because we got stuck on the "CONTROL" part of the name... Then forgot... errm... no its actually really just a nuking Wizard...
If they could see what's IN the ACTUAL feat tree... they'd be looking at us all screwy going ... why the hell did you ever do that?
They would be turning around and saying to us... HOW in the hell did you use a bunch of crappy control powers that have a short duration... that you couldn't feat OR improve with anything on... and had to be combined with 5 other powers just to work properly.
Because yeah... we were making it into something it wasn't.
Admittedly you could generate a ton of AP back then... prior to the Action Point nerf on CWs
......you COULD actually manipulate the CW into a class it was not... and it would actually work but that nerf killed that entirely.
The only place I've found you can still use the old SingBotting method (which is what you're talking about) is Dread Vault T2. You still need two CWs to pull it off unlike only one needed back in the day. But at least there's few enough mobs to be able to pull off the old Entangling/Shield Pop/Repel/Steal Time/Singularity method.
But those things were never in the Tree in the first place,
.....all you can feat, all you can make... is an AoE damager.
The rest of the stuff you have to seriously combine in multiple combinations 3 ways from sideways just to make them work. You dont' have to do that with the AoE Damage. That all works well on its own without help.
That should tell you its a Primary AoE Striker... and only a secondary Controller.
Is this guy serious?
The only defense you have for your argument is "it takes effort/planning/timing/proper management of powers to control things but it only takes a button press to attack, therefore CW are primary strikers/secondary controllers".
By your logic clerics would be also DPSers. Do you know clerics have a grand total of less than five pure support/defensive powers? Everything else requires them to constantly reposition/attack - and do decent/high damage (=healing). Being a good cleric is not something that happens automatically, it takes effort/planning/timing/proper management of powers.
I'm not even going to bother discussing this.
Oh, and I highly doubt you "remember" those times, since the obvious reason why CWs just didn't "nuke everything" then was because several dungeons were very different (and more challenging) back then. Gear was definitely a factor, but it wasn't the only one. When adds kept spawning every 3 seconds or so you had to up your game because any momentary break in control = potential party wipe.
If you all you did was repeatedly unload all your powers at once like CWs these days seem to be doing you'd be left with nothing to cast once new adds spawned and you'd be guaranteeing yourselves a wipe unless your people had godly gear.
Well that's too bad for you... you take it or leave it,
It doesn't change the fact.... you had to make something out of NOTHING back then. ITS NOT IN THERE... THERES NO CONTROL POWER FEATS... NEVER WAS.
There's lots of Damage spells and feats to improve damage... but the base power only has quick 1 second prones, some with none at all. Outside that you've got 2 low level single target spells with 3 second Freeze or Hold. You've got Icy Terrain that takes 6 Ticks to Freeze ANYtHING or even ACT as a control spell.
We've got Steal Time that is the ONLY AoE control spell that stuns for a whopping 3 seconds... BUT does a good 10k AoE damage.... and you can't even extend it with Feating...
That's IT and there's NOTHING in the feats to improve that. You had to MAKE something out of nothing and stack a ton of spells you couldn't change, couldn't Feat and couldn't TOUCH and had to combine.... just to be a controller that NEVER WAS...
That's why you had to do all that just to make ONE control power... it ISNT IN THERE and never WAS.
And its no more than any other class had. They've all got their Stuns, one second prones, and knockbacks and multiple target one at that. But because he's not called the "control cleric" That class never did stupid things like that or try to combine stuns, slows, and prones.
That's ALL we've ever had. You are going on a NAME ONLY.
As for your "most feats improve damage" argument, the simple fact of the matter is that control is a core mechanic in many CW powers. Everything CWs do has a control aspect associated to it. Even Magic Missile helps builds arcane stacks quickly, which boosts arcane control powers.
The problem is that control is being taken for granted because atm everyone is just doing too much damage, and that has to change.
EDIT: and no...AoE DAMAGE is the central core mechanic of the CW and is what you feat and build with those are the building blocks you have to work with you cannot build anything else...
....it has control components tacked on... that cannot be changed or feated and the other classes have those too... its not a controller outside of some of its Dailys.
1) Its a major event not only limited to NO but involving the whole D&D franchise. The module is suppose to be big. Perhaps bigger than all previous ones.
2) The previous module didnt add any new class. This usually means they didnt have "a" new class ready for it.
I'd like to see the paladin being added much like the range, meaning switching between sword/shield and two handed sword but if thats not the case and they go more close to the rules, I am sure they will pick the protecting paladin and add one more tank to the game.
Those are the possible classes. The closest thing to an engineer is an artificer, but that is an Eberron thing not Forgotten Realms.
I'm pleading to the heavens for a Bladesinger class. That's always been my personal favorite
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Zulkir turns into Makos, not just a random warlock.
As for the blade, they are called pact blades. It is one of the implement options for warlocks in 4th edition.
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D&D always lacked this kind of class, it has been conceived as "sword&sorcery", not a "steampunk" game. There have been some handbooks that allowed some engineer-ish classes IIRC, but they had entirely dedicated settings.
Forgotten Realms is quite "classic" as a setting and, despite seeing mechanical crabs and lobsters, I suppose they are meant to be just a curiosity. I doubt Cryptic will follow that route for classes and gameplay.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."