Thats why we have to buff a CW 1st - so that 'One of the best PvP DCs out there' that is 'able to survive for a LONG while against CWs, while also bringing them to the brink of death' - knows its place: a decent CW just MUST be able to kill him in 15 sec at most while losing no more than 10% of hp.
Guys, r u kidding or what?
Clerics have a huge disadvantage already. Fix THAT, and after that go and offer buffs to wizards.
That ridiculous arguments about 'but cleric has heals' and 'some cleric could sometimes stalemate some GWF' and 'i saw some BiS cleric that managed to survive more than 10 sec against some not very bad CW'- well....
This is what im saying in the CW vs DC portion of the thread... Just because a BiS has a chance to win against a bad CW, is that not also class imbalance? On my CW, ive faced DCs, and the difference in THEIR gs just determines how long they last. Ive NEVER lost to a DC in 1v1 situations...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Any CW worth his salt knows theres a difference in premade and pug, but players like you discard pug entirely(once the misunderstanding, brought on by you and others' raging, velynna knows that pug pvp is also a part of this game(in fact its the majority of pvp in this game)).
Apparently, you aren't one of them.
Anyways, this is a waste of my time spending that much responding to 1 person. You keep talking about PUG PVP, I'll keep talking about premade PVP CW.
I've said all my points, I've debunked everything said to me. Right now, the questions are being phrased in a different way and I've had to repeat the same points over and over again.
I'll just wait for you to get better and start facing PVP guilds wherein the difference between skill and gear aren't much in-between teams. Maybe you'll learn a thing or two about the differences between PUG PVP and premade PVP.
As of now, I would say I'll have to agree to disagree.
Anyways, this is a waste of my time spending that much responding to 1 person. You keep talking about PUG PVP, I'll keep talking about premade PVP CW.
I've said all my points, I've debunked everything said to me. Right now, the questions are being phrased in a different way and I've had to repeat the same points over and over again.
I'll just wait for you to get better and start facing PVP guilds wherein the difference between skill and gear aren't much in-between teams. Maybe you'll learn a thing or two about the differences between PUG PVP and premade PVP.
As of now, I would say I'll have to agree to disagree.
Apparently YOU aren't one of them. Im not talking about pug pvp, im talking about pvp as a WHOLE. velynna understood this, apparently you DO NOT. Ive continuously debunked everything said to me, and shared suggestions/constructive thoughts. If anything, IVE had to post, repost, and repeat the same points over and over again.
Ill just wait for you to learn to not be so narrow minded, and learn that balance means EVERYTHING must be balanced, not just making one class more OP than others(once again, seeing as you don't read, many people remember when CWs were higher tier pvp, and GWFs were garbage... apparently you do not understand how much pvp has changed). Nice when you SAY you've listened, yet ive had to repeat the same things experienced people should know to you time and time again.
Maybe then youll learn that having 1 class in the upper echelon of a gametype, doesn't mean youre an expert on the subject AS A WHOLE. Its people who look at everything, and get the bigger picture who understand how the gears are rolling. Ill take a guy who looks at all the classes, over a person throwing a fit because the 1 class they play is considered garbage to them, anyday.
With that, have a nice day .
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
You don't play CW at a high level. You play in PUG matches. Huge variances in skill and gear affect your perception.
What does it say when Spastic Dodge (adamy2004) and Persephone , 2 of the top regular PVPers CWs on this server disagree with what someone like you says?
Please go watch twitch streams, go join a PVP guild, go play high level premades then come back. Otherwise we are talking about 2 different metas. You are talking about low level pugging, I am talking about high level premade vs premades. There is bound to be a difference in opinion because the two metas work differently.
please do not bring me back into this thread, and i DO agree with some things willie has to say, also the very best CWs are Alt and Sobek, im on the tier below with everyone else
People like velynna are vastly more experienced, but shes not on here qq'ing "buff the cw and nothing else, were the worst in PvP". At least 2 DCs(myself and another) have posted that DCs are weaker in PvP. Theres also been a GF(I could go on that too, but I let that go, because anybody with any PvP experience knows that DC and GF are considered worst 2 PvP classes).
What you've done is come onto this thread, and continuously qq about CWs weaknesses in current meta(which, once again, nobody here's saying they don't(once again, to your lack of reading)), but not being sympathetic(in fact downright insulting) to classes who need more help than even CWs.
Balance means EVERYTHING should be looked at evenly. Im pretty sure giving CWs healing and tankiness on the level of DCs and GFs is about the stupidest thing ever stated. You support CW's strengths, not copy/paste other classes' strengths onto yours. Any experienced person would've seen that that's not a way to promote balance. When the HR class came out, for example, they were never meant to be an OP class, but a class with diversity, if played correctly(range dps, melee dps).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
please do not bring me back into this thread, and i DO agree with some things willie has to say, also the very best CWs are Alt and Sobek, im on the tier below with everyone else
my discussion with you and velynna was merely a misunderstanding, and for that im sorry. But this guy's all about narrow minded buffing of his class for his benefit, instead of balancing pvp as a whole.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
please do not bring me back into this thread, and i DO agree with some things willie has to say, also the very best CWs are Alt and Sobek, im on the tier below with everyone else
Sobek plays a GWF now fyi.
Jerkface tried out mage and he is doing well.....with a stacked premade backing him up of course.
I PuG PvP a CW, and I find the experience varies hugely match to match. Sometimes I bestride the battleground like a veritable God of Death, other times I die faster than the average mayfly. Keeps it interesting I guess. But the serious point here is that Cryptic will be using in-game metrics to see what and how to balance classes. With so much variation in PuGs (the vast majority of PvP) they simply may not consider the issues thrown up in 'Elite' PvP significant.
Honestly? I'd be happy if they just fixed it so that Repel worked 100% of the time. They can take away the damage component if they like. I just want one single 100% reliable method of getting a Melee out of my face when my dodges run out.
CW definitely lost some power with the new tenacity mechanic, but I still maintain that no one has more right to complain about pvp being hideously imbalanced as DC do. That is a straight up painful experience.
I streamed pages by pages, looking for useful information but in the end i only see flame war(s) happening, dragging in high end BIS pvp players to prove your(s) statements. I admit cw do got their weakness, but instead of asking immediate buffs to cw, why not take a look abt other classes? I play as a DC which is the only class when BIS as sent cannot kill anyone by 1v1, even the opponent is half of our gs. In addition, we got tons of healing nerfs on us since beta, where new modules add healing nerfs to us (Righteousness (Beta), Shadowtouched (M2), Healing Depression (pre-M3)). We as a DC have our roles and strengths shifted from an extreme to another extremes in every modules. We changed from pure healers to halfling node capping sent (Beta> M1), then from sent clerics we shift to buff/debuffer since the introduction of healing depression, as our healing powers are not so powerful anymore to keep ourselves alive (M1 > M2). Now we are going to M3, and the healer class still cannot effective heal a teammate in pvp, is this a major problem? Yes it indeed is. Cw can penetrate tenacity control resist and can still do moderate to great damage, but cleric still cant heal effectively due to healing depression!!!
Well, do you still qq-ing about cw weakness in pvp after seeing the facts i have stated?? Chill down and give constructive feedbacks. I hope this thread will not be closed because of flame wars, cuz there are many useful feedbacks and informations here for me to inspect.
Now we are going to M3, and the healer class still cannot effective heal a teammate in pvp, is this a major problem? Yes it indeed is. Cw can penetrate tenacity control resist and can still do moderate to great damage, but cleric still cant heal effectively in M3!!! Well, do you still qq-ing about cw weakness in pvp after seeing the facts i have stated?? Chill down and give constructive feedbacks. I hope this thread will not be closed because of flame wars.
What is "effective"? A good DC makes my GWF immortal. My TR immortal. My CW immortal vs 1 person and almost immortal vs 2 persons. All I have to do is stay near and use the shields.
How much more healing should DC have? Just asking.
Also if DCs would make a topic about DC weaknesses in PvP, then a few CWs would come and say:
"No, CWs have weaknesses too, gtfo with the DC thing and let's derail the topic to suit CW interests"
What is "effective"? A good DC makes my GWF immortal. My TR immortal. My CW immortal vs 1 person and almost immortal vs 2 persons. All I have to do is stay near and use the shields.
How much more healing should DC have? Just asking.
Also if DCs would make a topic about DC weaknesses in PvP, then a few CWs would come and say:
"No, CWs have weaknesses too, gtfo with the DC thing and let's derail the topic to suit CW interests"
I'd consider those CWs impolite.
...
Let me do a bit of transference then:
What is "effective"? A good CW controls an enemy so a GWF can toy with him. A TR can toy with him. My CW can toy with him, because 2 enemies stunning/freezing/slowing/choking(entangling force)/proning is auto win for all but classes who can "break cc"(and for only so long). All I have to do is protect the wizard, and take advantage of his cc abilities.
How much more cc should a CW have? Just asking.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
What is "effective"? A good DC makes my GWF immortal. My TR immortal. My CW immortal vs 1 person and almost immortal vs 2 persons. All I have to do is stay near and use the shields.
How much more healing should DC have? Just asking.
Also if DCs would make a topic about DC weaknesses in PvP, then a few CWs would come and say:
"No, CWs have weaknesses too, gtfo with the DC thing and let's derail the topic to suit CW interests"
I'd consider those CWs impolite.
...
You realize you are arguing with people who have no experience other than PUG PVP?
Now I'll admit I do give everyone a chance and hear them out no matter who they are. Arguments and evidence should be the basis of logic, not one's reputation.
However, there are a couple of people here who are truly misguided and I don't think they are worth the time responding to since I believe they believe they are in the right. However, their limited experience is their flaw.
I have started out PUGGING, I have played all classes. I have played in premade games. I have watched and listened in on TONs of PM vs PM action between the top PVP guilds (because I'm not a top-10 player).
My suggestion is, ignore those specific people if they are unable to understand. Sooner or later, they will get better, they will start going on higher ranked matches, they will get BIS gear, they will fight against the best teams and then their perception will change. Until then, you will not breakthrough to those because in their limited world, it does make sense. It did in mine back then.
Don't know. I never asked for more CC for the CW. Asking questions with questions is poor manners and shows you're stuck without answers. Also my post was not addressed to you. I read your posts and find that replying to what you have to say would be futile, so I'm pretty much uninterested in any sort of conversation.
Don't know. I never asked for more CC for the CW. Asking questions with questions is poor manners and shows you're stuck without answers. Also my post was not addressed to you. I read your posts and find that replying to what you have to say would be futile, so I'm pretty much uninterested in any sort of conversation.
If this is true, it's only because you and rashleywizz are 2 of a kind here. You're too blind to actual balance, too blind to class fairness all around, and you both qq for nerfs and buffs. The past has shown that calling for the nerfbat and/or buffs has imbalanced PvP enough as it is.
You don't like someone disagreeing with you, fine. But don't come on here automatically assuming you're correct, when even experienced as PvP players are also disagreeing/debunking you, in addition to players more experienced than you, but not on top.
You're saying that DCs are a "balanced" class, because they are a support type class. You 2 seem to forget that the CW is ALSO a support class. By your own arguments, the CW should be fine as it is. But you want a support class to be superior to not only other support classes(DC/GF), but you want them competitive in combat too? As has been said before, no one argued that CWs don't need help right now. But to argue that they're the weakest PvP class is one of the stupidest and blindest things ever stated.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
And people like you are also too blind to balancing this game. I should've realized from the get go how blind and ignorant you really are. It was futile to speak to either of you, so if I need a serious, experienced person to talk to, I'll talk to the likes of velynna,alt, or others, as you're to blind to have a rational conversation with.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
And people like you are also too blind to balancing this game. I should've realized from the get go how blind and ignorant you really are. It was futile to speak to either of you, so if I need a serious, experienced person to talk to, I'll talk to the likes of velynna,alt, or others, as you're to blind to have a rational conversation with.
Are you trying to get recruited into Chocolate Shoppe Willie?
Why are you arguing with somebody who has never asked for any balance changes (me)?
I am very happy with the state of the game. I enjoy myself in it everyday. If the status quo changes, I adapt to the new one, and play the most OP imbalanced thing around.
Will the next best thing be the CW? Cool for me, time to dust off mine.
So I don't really want balance. But also not stating it exists.
What mystifies me I where I was "debunked" or where people disagreed with me. What the hell is that supposed to be. Or how would you know my PvP experience levels, as those were not stated anywhere.
You live in a curious world willie, where events happen only to you and you only. I'm also bewildered about the numerous (double/triple) posts of yours in CW topics. Why this burning passion for the CW subject willie? Are the CW guys posing a problem for you in PvP? Shed some light into the subject will you?
Are you trying to get recruited into Chocolate Shoppe Willie?
Why are you arguing with somebody who has never asked for any balance changes (me)?
I am very happy with the state of the game. I enjoy myself in it everyday. If the status quo changes, I adapt to the new one, and play the most OP imbalanced thing around.
Will the next best thing be the CW? Cool for me, time to dust off mine.
So I don't really want balance. But also not stating it exists.
What mystifies me I where I was "debunked" or where people disagreed with me. What the hell is that supposed to be. Or how would you know my PvP experience levels, as those were not stated anywhere.
You live in a curious world willie, where events happen only to you and you only. I'm also bewildered about the numerous (double/triple) posts of yours in CW topics. Why this burning passion for the CW subject willie? Are the CW guys posing a problem for you in PvP? Shed some light into the subject will you?
You've been around for a while Persephone, and you've always been a very vocal person so most of the PvP community knows of you.
As for the disagreeing part, well you also have a long history of arguing just to argue, it has seemed in the past that you are not concerned with the facts or actually providing any evidence to your claims (PvP related theories and what have you).
You have also been known for trolling players who don't know any better by providing tips, tricks, and theories that are generally considered poor by the hardcore PvP player base.
This just isent cool, these are people who are trying to do the research, and learn the things they need to know to be competitive, and you are purposefully steering them toward builds, encounters, and tactics that will ensure they fail and become frustrated.
/rant
If you truly enjoy this game then either share relevant, and useful information, or just don't post.
I was intrigued that I didn't seem to have many of the issues described in this thread. Maybe just my PuG level and playing against inexperienced players, maybe my rotation. So last night I switched to the most typical Thaum build with Shard on tab. Oh boy - now I see the problems.
Shard use requires you to stand still for way too long for my liking, immediately making CC much more important. I usually run with Icy Rays on tab and no Shard at all which allows me to be pretty much in constant motion. Using Shard made me more effective against groups fighting at Mid but utterly ineffective anywhere else. Of course I lack experience with Shard use, but even so...
It's extremely offensive to me to be confused with a wizard of questionable skills that I barely know. But as I said to others that sent me private messages, I don't really care actually.
I was intrigued that I didn't seem to have many of the issues described in this thread. Maybe just my PuG level and playing against inexperienced players, maybe my rotation. So last night I switched to the most typical Thaum build with Shard on tab. Oh boy - now I see the problems.
Shard use requires you to stand still for way too long for my liking, immediately making CC much more important. I usually run with Icy Rays on tab and no Shard at all which allows me to be pretty much in constant motion. Using Shard made me more effective against groups fighting at Mid but utterly ineffective anywhere else. Of course I lack experience with Shard use, but even so...
Shard is too easy to bug by the other player. It is very effective if the opponents stand around like idiots or if you are ganging up on them 3v1.
Otherwise, you gotta be jumping every other second while casting it and manipulating it to try and deflect attacks against you.
By the way, it is refreshing to have other people like me with perspective to talk with :eek:
Shame others here are ignorant....and are proud of it
As a CW;
I just wanted to say that my entangling last for quite a while since i usually cast it with 3-5 arcane stacks. Never with 0. But then again, you would have to drop the whole "shard" spec and lose 1 cc ability. Oh noes.
And my repel pushes far, because again, im keeping my arcane stacks up.
I think there is too much whine about the CWs at the moment. We have amazing damage and we have 3 ****ing dodges. That means we can dodge; ALL the CC abilities from a GWF, GF and most CC abilities from the HR.
CW vs TR is a joke, because TR is a joke atm.
CW vs HR is tough but doable.
CW vs GF is fine.
CW vs GWF is fine aswell.
CW vs DC is not so cool for the DC, but i have fought a few DCs that took ages to kill.
So i think the CWs are far from the worst class in the game. We have abit less survivability then the other classes but we make up for that in damage. You should try to adapt to the scenario and follow the game, like any other class does, most CWs still stayed with the shard on TAB specc after the tenacity patch went live. Which im not saying one or the other is the best. But you need to find something that suits your playstyle better if you dont like or are satisfied with one spec atm.
I agree with the rest of your comparisons except for this one. I think GWFs with their unstoppable have a huge advantage over CW. Plus, for every dodge the CW has, the GWF will merely spam Threatening Rush to pounce closer and also do damage.
Just curious, which is the worst class for you in PVP? GF?
I wouldn't say CW is much much more powerful than a GF in PVP
I agree with the rest of your comparisons except for this one. I think GWFs with their unstoppable have a huge advantage over CW. Plus, for every dodge the CW has, the GWF will merely spam Threatening Rush to pounce closer and also do damage.
Just curious, which is the worst class for you in PVP? GF?
I wouldn't say CW is much much more powerful than a GF in PVP
CW vs GF is balanced. It mostly comes down to skill, which it should.
CW vs GWF i think its balanced as well, GWFs are maybe abit better as it stands now since their encounters does more damage then ice knife but they are not unbeatable. You really dont need to dodge threatening rush, you do damage aswell while they spam it. Id rather save my dodges for frontline and takedown.
I think PvP is fine as it is. mod3 will **** it up more. The only thing that needs a fix is the TR and HRs. With the right person playing they can be a nightmare.
CW vs GF is balanced. It mostly comes down to skill, which it should.
CW vs GWF i think its balanced as well, GWFs are maybe abit better as it stands now since their encounters does more damage then ice knife but they are not unbeatable. You really dont need to dodge threatening rush, you do damage aswell while they spam it. Id rather save my dodges for frontline and takedown.
I think PvP is fine as it is. mod3 will **** it up more. The only thing that needs a fix is the TR and HRs. With the right person playing they can be a nightmare.
I agree CW vs GF is balanced and does come down to skill.
What I meant to say was, the GWF saves their frontline and takedown after a CW dodges. They spam threatening rush to make the CW use up their dodges to gain distance.
CW vs GWF i think its balanced as well, GWFs are maybe abit better as it stands now since their encounters does more damage then ice knife but they are not unbeatable. You really dont need to dodge threatening rush, you do damage aswell while they spam it. Id rather save my dodges for frontline and takedown.
Problem is, is that if I use threatening rush to get to you I'm not concerned with my encounters until your dodges are gone. I'm content using surestrike in the meantime.
ETA: If the cw is sloppy about it, I'll frontline right after a dodge while I'm at a distance that some believe they are safe.
Problem is, is that if I use threatening rush to get to you I'm not concerned with my encounters until your dodges are gone. I'm content using surestrike in the meantime.
ETA: If the cw is sloppy about it, I'll frontline right after a dodge while I'm at a distance that some believe they are safe.
Well, its different how the CWs chose to play i guess. I will never dodge because of a threatening rush.
Then the GWF will use sure strike on me while i unleash my dps, both standing there facetanking eachother, gwf will take more damage during this phase because i will use my encounters while he wait for me to dodge, then i will force him to frontline because of damage, and i will dodge when i think he will use it.
Sometimes it goes very well sometimes it goes bad. It really depends on the GWF aswell. Because some GWF just go out spamming their encounters and if you dont dodge then you will get proned. So its mostly up to guessing and mindgames in the end
Comments
This is what im saying in the CW vs DC portion of the thread... Just because a BiS has a chance to win against a bad CW, is that not also class imbalance? On my CW, ive faced DCs, and the difference in THEIR gs just determines how long they last. Ive NEVER lost to a DC in 1v1 situations...
Apparently, you aren't one of them.
Anyways, this is a waste of my time spending that much responding to 1 person. You keep talking about PUG PVP, I'll keep talking about premade PVP CW.
I've said all my points, I've debunked everything said to me. Right now, the questions are being phrased in a different way and I've had to repeat the same points over and over again.
I'll just wait for you to get better and start facing PVP guilds wherein the difference between skill and gear aren't much in-between teams. Maybe you'll learn a thing or two about the differences between PUG PVP and premade PVP.
As of now, I would say I'll have to agree to disagree.
Apparently YOU aren't one of them. Im not talking about pug pvp, im talking about pvp as a WHOLE. velynna understood this, apparently you DO NOT. Ive continuously debunked everything said to me, and shared suggestions/constructive thoughts. If anything, IVE had to post, repost, and repeat the same points over and over again.
Ill just wait for you to learn to not be so narrow minded, and learn that balance means EVERYTHING must be balanced, not just making one class more OP than others(once again, seeing as you don't read, many people remember when CWs were higher tier pvp, and GWFs were garbage... apparently you do not understand how much pvp has changed). Nice when you SAY you've listened, yet ive had to repeat the same things experienced people should know to you time and time again.
Maybe then youll learn that having 1 class in the upper echelon of a gametype, doesn't mean youre an expert on the subject AS A WHOLE. Its people who look at everything, and get the bigger picture who understand how the gears are rolling. Ill take a guy who looks at all the classes, over a person throwing a fit because the 1 class they play is considered garbage to them, anyday.
With that, have a nice day
please do not bring me back into this thread, and i DO agree with some things willie has to say, also the very best CWs are Alt and Sobek, im on the tier below with everyone else
What you've done is come onto this thread, and continuously qq about CWs weaknesses in current meta(which, once again, nobody here's saying they don't(once again, to your lack of reading)), but not being sympathetic(in fact downright insulting) to classes who need more help than even CWs.
Balance means EVERYTHING should be looked at evenly. Im pretty sure giving CWs healing and tankiness on the level of DCs and GFs is about the stupidest thing ever stated. You support CW's strengths, not copy/paste other classes' strengths onto yours. Any experienced person would've seen that that's not a way to promote balance. When the HR class came out, for example, they were never meant to be an OP class, but a class with diversity, if played correctly(range dps, melee dps).
my discussion with you and velynna was merely a misunderstanding, and for that im sorry. But this guy's all about narrow minded buffing of his class for his benefit, instead of balancing pvp as a whole.
Sobek plays a GWF now fyi.
Jerkface tried out mage and he is doing well.....with a stacked premade backing him up of course.
Honestly? I'd be happy if they just fixed it so that Repel worked 100% of the time. They can take away the damage component if they like. I just want one single 100% reliable method of getting a Melee out of my face when my dodges run out.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Well, do you still qq-ing about cw weakness in pvp after seeing the facts i have stated?? Chill down and give constructive feedbacks. I hope this thread will not be closed because of flame wars, cuz there are many useful feedbacks and informations here for me to inspect.
What is "effective"? A good DC makes my GWF immortal. My TR immortal. My CW immortal vs 1 person and almost immortal vs 2 persons. All I have to do is stay near and use the shields.
How much more healing should DC have? Just asking.
Also if DCs would make a topic about DC weaknesses in PvP, then a few CWs would come and say:
"No, CWs have weaknesses too, gtfo with the DC thing and let's derail the topic to suit CW interests"
I'd consider those CWs impolite.
...
Let me do a bit of transference then:
What is "effective"? A good CW controls an enemy so a GWF can toy with him. A TR can toy with him. My CW can toy with him, because 2 enemies stunning/freezing/slowing/choking(entangling force)/proning is auto win for all but classes who can "break cc"(and for only so long). All I have to do is protect the wizard, and take advantage of his cc abilities.
How much more cc should a CW have? Just asking.
You sir get it. Its sad others don't but I'm glad someone here does
You realize you are arguing with people who have no experience other than PUG PVP?
Now I'll admit I do give everyone a chance and hear them out no matter who they are. Arguments and evidence should be the basis of logic, not one's reputation.
However, there are a couple of people here who are truly misguided and I don't think they are worth the time responding to since I believe they believe they are in the right. However, their limited experience is their flaw.
I have started out PUGGING, I have played all classes. I have played in premade games. I have watched and listened in on TONs of PM vs PM action between the top PVP guilds (because I'm not a top-10 player).
My suggestion is, ignore those specific people if they are unable to understand. Sooner or later, they will get better, they will start going on higher ranked matches, they will get BIS gear, they will fight against the best teams and then their perception will change. Until then, you will not breakthrough to those because in their limited world, it does make sense. It did in mine back then.
Don't know. I never asked for more CC for the CW. Asking questions with questions is poor manners and shows you're stuck without answers. Also my post was not addressed to you. I read your posts and find that replying to what you have to say would be futile, so I'm pretty much uninterested in any sort of conversation.
If this is true, it's only because you and rashleywizz are 2 of a kind here. You're too blind to actual balance, too blind to class fairness all around, and you both qq for nerfs and buffs. The past has shown that calling for the nerfbat and/or buffs has imbalanced PvP enough as it is.
You don't like someone disagreeing with you, fine. But don't come on here automatically assuming you're correct, when even experienced as PvP players are also disagreeing/debunking you, in addition to players more experienced than you, but not on top.
You're saying that DCs are a "balanced" class, because they are a support type class. You 2 seem to forget that the CW is ALSO a support class. By your own arguments, the CW should be fine as it is. But you want a support class to be superior to not only other support classes(DC/GF), but you want them competitive in combat too? As has been said before, no one argued that CWs don't need help right now. But to argue that they're the weakest PvP class is one of the stupidest and blindest things ever stated.
Are you trying to get recruited into Chocolate Shoppe Willie?
Why are you arguing with somebody who has never asked for any balance changes (me)?
I am very happy with the state of the game. I enjoy myself in it everyday. If the status quo changes, I adapt to the new one, and play the most OP imbalanced thing around.
Will the next best thing be the CW? Cool for me, time to dust off mine.
So I don't really want balance. But also not stating it exists.
What mystifies me I where I was "debunked" or where people disagreed with me. What the hell is that supposed to be. Or how would you know my PvP experience levels, as those were not stated anywhere.
You live in a curious world willie, where events happen only to you and you only. I'm also bewildered about the numerous (double/triple) posts of yours in CW topics. Why this burning passion for the CW subject willie? Are the CW guys posing a problem for you in PvP? Shed some light into the subject will you?
You've been around for a while Persephone, and you've always been a very vocal person so most of the PvP community knows of you.
As for the disagreeing part, well you also have a long history of arguing just to argue, it has seemed in the past that you are not concerned with the facts or actually providing any evidence to your claims (PvP related theories and what have you).
You have also been known for trolling players who don't know any better by providing tips, tricks, and theories that are generally considered poor by the hardcore PvP player base.
This just isent cool, these are people who are trying to do the research, and learn the things they need to know to be competitive, and you are purposefully steering them toward builds, encounters, and tactics that will ensure they fail and become frustrated.
/rant
If you truly enjoy this game then either share relevant, and useful information, or just don't post.
I was intrigued that I didn't seem to have many of the issues described in this thread. Maybe just my PuG level and playing against inexperienced players, maybe my rotation. So last night I switched to the most typical Thaum build with Shard on tab. Oh boy - now I see the problems.
Shard use requires you to stand still for way too long for my liking, immediately making CC much more important. I usually run with Icy Rays on tab and no Shard at all which allows me to be pretty much in constant motion. Using Shard made me more effective against groups fighting at Mid but utterly ineffective anywhere else. Of course I lack experience with Shard use, but even so...
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Shard is too easy to bug by the other player. It is very effective if the opponents stand around like idiots or if you are ganging up on them 3v1.
Otherwise, you gotta be jumping every other second while casting it and manipulating it to try and deflect attacks against you.
By the way, it is refreshing to have other people like me with perspective to talk with :eek:
Shame others here are ignorant....and are proud of it
I just wanted to say that my entangling last for quite a while since i usually cast it with 3-5 arcane stacks. Never with 0. But then again, you would have to drop the whole "shard" spec and lose 1 cc ability. Oh noes.
And my repel pushes far, because again, im keeping my arcane stacks up.
I think there is too much whine about the CWs at the moment. We have amazing damage and we have 3 ****ing dodges. That means we can dodge; ALL the CC abilities from a GWF, GF and most CC abilities from the HR.
CW vs TR is a joke, because TR is a joke atm.
CW vs HR is tough but doable.
CW vs GF is fine.
CW vs GWF is fine aswell.
CW vs DC is not so cool for the DC, but i have fought a few DCs that took ages to kill.
So i think the CWs are far from the worst class in the game. We have abit less survivability then the other classes but we make up for that in damage. You should try to adapt to the scenario and follow the game, like any other class does, most CWs still stayed with the shard on TAB specc after the tenacity patch went live. Which im not saying one or the other is the best. But you need to find something that suits your playstyle better if you dont like or are satisfied with one spec atm.
I agree with the rest of your comparisons except for this one. I think GWFs with their unstoppable have a huge advantage over CW. Plus, for every dodge the CW has, the GWF will merely spam Threatening Rush to pounce closer and also do damage.
Just curious, which is the worst class for you in PVP? GF?
I wouldn't say CW is much much more powerful than a GF in PVP
CW vs GF is balanced. It mostly comes down to skill, which it should.
CW vs GWF i think its balanced as well, GWFs are maybe abit better as it stands now since their encounters does more damage then ice knife but they are not unbeatable. You really dont need to dodge threatening rush, you do damage aswell while they spam it. Id rather save my dodges for frontline and takedown.
I think PvP is fine as it is. mod3 will **** it up more. The only thing that needs a fix is the TR and HRs. With the right person playing they can be a nightmare.
I agree CW vs GF is balanced and does come down to skill.
What I meant to say was, the GWF saves their frontline and takedown after a CW dodges. They spam threatening rush to make the CW use up their dodges to gain distance.
Problem is, is that if I use threatening rush to get to you I'm not concerned with my encounters until your dodges are gone. I'm content using surestrike in the meantime.
ETA: If the cw is sloppy about it, I'll frontline right after a dodge while I'm at a distance that some believe they are safe.
Well, its different how the CWs chose to play i guess. I will never dodge because of a threatening rush.
Then the GWF will use sure strike on me while i unleash my dps, both standing there facetanking eachother, gwf will take more damage during this phase because i will use my encounters while he wait for me to dodge, then i will force him to frontline because of damage, and i will dodge when i think he will use it.
Sometimes it goes very well sometimes it goes bad. It really depends on the GWF aswell. Because some GWF just go out spamming their encounters and if you dont dodge then you will get proned. So its mostly up to guessing and mindgames in the end
Shard is impossible to bug out if you only use it when the opponent is CC'ed.
But yeah if you're using shard on people without icy roots/entangling first, it's not going to seem very effective.
It can still be easily bugged out once the opponent gets out of CC or if its a 2v2 match
They won't be getting out of the CC because shard will be proning them. Twice.
2v2 you're going to be first target anyway so you won't be doing much of anything except dodging.
1v1 it's a crucial skill. It's like having a ranged GWF takedown... that works twice in a row and does 3x as much damage and has AOE potential.
No GWF in their right mind would ever go without something like that, and yet there's tons of CW who don't use shard on tab.