This is already perfectly achievable. I'm using a PvE spec CW in PvP and I experience both wins and losses at a pretty even rate, as well as plenty of competitive matches. What you need is PvP gear, and its slightly unreasonable to think you should not need this gear to be able to PvP. My 23k HP PvE spec CW with not a single Defensive stat above 900 transforms into a 32k HP 1.5k Defense Deflect battle-ready PvPer just by swapping into some Grim gear.
How? I can only barely manage 28k with Thaum Grim gear.
Unless you are boasting 1.7k regen, you are seriously misgeared for PVP with that HP.
You can post your gear in the CW class forum. A lot of people will be able to take a look at it and help you out
I am not interested in speccing for HARDCORE BEAST PVP CW mode. I am not interested in elite high-end premade PVP. I don't care one bit about those things.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
How? I can only barely manage 28k with Thaum Grim gear.
Make a Halfling, Max CON to 20 (21 with campfire buff).
At least 5 Defensive gear slots (Armor, Pants, Rings x2, Belt)
Rank 9-10 Radiants in Defense slots.
Profound Thaum Gear
That should get you near 37-38k HP.
PS: Two new Artifacts in Module 3 (GWF and new PVP Artifact) with give 1600HP and 1200HP each.
I know that is the way to have a min/maxed PVP optimized character. I'm not really interested in that. Again I don't care about fighting high-end premades. I know I will lose to them every time. I just want to take my existing PVE CW, with 12 CON and 25k HP, and put some gear on to give it a little bit more HP, and to have a reasonably enjoyable time when pugging. That's all.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I know that is the way to have a min/maxed PVP optimized character. I'm not really interested in that. Again I don't care about fighting high-end premades. I know I will lose to them every time. I just want to take my existing PVE CW, with 12 CON and 25k HP, and put some gear on to give it a little bit more HP, and to have a reasonably enjoyable time when pugging. That's all.
Use a boatload of defensive accessories. my PvE CW does ok when pugging despite not being that tanky in her grim gear(31k HP). I wouldn't take my CW into a premade though, I'm leveling a new one for that.
I think, this goes to far (for now).
I think, first of all the bugs have to be fixed. Which means, as already stated:
1.) Armor Penetration working correctly for all powers.
2.) CC-resist-penetration (66% is stated) working correctly (I don't think it does now - the Entangling Force animation on my part takes sometimes longer than a player is actually lifted; ehm, yeah...). This also includes fixing the bug that deflected attacks reduce or even completely negate CC effects.
I disagree (for now) to make CWs tankier. CC should be a CWs defense. Tenacitys additional CC-resist mixed with the CC-resist-penetration seemingly not working - or not being high enough - and mixed with the bug that deflected attacks also reduce or even completely negate CC effects, was abysmal for CWs in PvP. Repel was a very important skill against basically all classes to interrupt and create distance, and is now being far from working consistent to do so.
If these bugs are fixed and the CW is still inferior, then you could think about further changes. But I think first you have to evaluate again when these bugs are fixed.
I don't think fixing ArmPen will help CWs as that's an offensive buff (fix), but the problem CWs are having is defensive. Fixing ArmPen will raise CW damage, which will be bad for PVE, and do little in PVP. I agree with #2, but I don't think that that will be enough. The way I see it, CWs were built to have options to keep enemies from coming to them. This is similar to HR's main defense mobility. HRs are able to survive in PVP because they move around so quickly that it's hard to keep up with them in order to hit them. CWs should have something similar, except instead of boosting their own mobility, they should be able to reduce other's mobility. This is what gave me the idea to increase slow severity on stacks of chill. As it stands, CW's only way of keeping distance is through CC, and their CC is too short to allow them to control the fight.
Like I said earlier, I think any buff to the CW should be related to the idea of a CW, that being control. CWs should not be DPS, and they should not be tanks. Their purpose is to control, and honestly their control is broken currently. Increasing control while reducing damage also fixes the problems plaguing PVE. With more control, a single CW can handle the mobs, while not being strong enough to kill them giving place for other classes to join in, most notably GWFs and HRs.
I wouldn't take my CW into a premade though, I'm leveling a new one for that.
I don't blame you. It is fun to play as though.
But in a PM vs PM where your guild's name is on the line, don't take a CW. Unless of course, you know that your guild is much better than theirs....then you could probably get away with it.
What I would like, is to be able to take my 25k HP PVE CW and dabble in PVP, and have a reasonably enjoyable time (NOT "win every match", but just not have it be a humiliating curbstomp every time), and not be paired up with you or against you, or any of the PVP "pros", ever, at all.
This is a very reasonable demand. I really don't think you are losing so very often. I started 4 toons at low ELO and went through many defeats with each of them when I pugged, but I won some as well. I met many PvE CWs, many of them completely clueless, and they got away with it just because the other team was even worse.
As for the instances where you do get stomped, this is an (intentional?) failure of the matchmaking. probably to shorten queue duration.
However, as with most things in this game, getting decent at one thing needs practice. You cannot dabble, and be good at it. I'm still learning new stuff for each of my toons after almost a year of PvP.
About being paired with PvP "pros". This can be done, but it needs Cryptic's attention. In other MMOs there are ranked matches within leagues - this is where PvPers will be found. There are also non-ranked matches for those that wanna have some fun, "dabble" in the system.
But for now, expect to find PvPers with or against you. This is why you should prepare for the worst, as others said before me, by wearing full defensive accessories and PvP gear.
Here are the issues
Right now CW is in such a God mode In pve.. It's completely overpowered and broken
The devs have already commented on this.. So it's well known
Any fixes to cw like the armor pen will not happen until they have fixed for pve. Yes these fixes are easy but you have to realise that they aren't fixing it on purpose because of the pve situation. Cw can not be buffed in anyway that affects pve.., so I would just accept that cw is the way it is until they can address the pve cw.. After that maybe they will get some pvp love but right now isn't going to happen
armor pen doesnt matter in pve on a cw. if you are running high vizier's you are already bringing trash mobs/bosses defense into negative values, on top of other debuffs of dc's/gwfs
so that is no reason for devs to not fix armor pen
This is what gave me the idea to increase slow severity on stacks of chill. As it stands, CW's only way of keeping distance is through CC, and their CC is too short to allow them to control the fight.
If you think that 'slow' will help you vs GWF's Unstoppable or vs TR's Stealth you are in mistake.
I see my GF being easily controlled by one or two CWs while the rest of the team kills him; in 1v1, I see CWs winning too and other classes losing and vice versa. I am flabbergasted that people keep thinking they are not strong enough, although even one CW is able to chain-control others.
Maybe - like the GFs - the CWs should stop wanting to be the sole heros of PvP and start playing as a team. I remember of a CW grumbling about "God mode for GFs" as he tried to attack my GF and wasted all his control powers; how should the devs solve this? by means of introducing an instant kill button?
At least, I did not have more problems with my CW except those I created myself and this single problem of all other classes: the sole possibility that other classes are also able to win a 1v1.
I am agree with you, in pvp most situation are not 1vs1 and in them CW help much with its CC. As HR I prefer to help with burst dmg on CW that control someone than this to do 1vs1 with other one that running around. With one CW when we go on our Cap we can clear it from TR for 1 rotation which one is 5-15 sec which is far fastest than this I to go alone to kill him. When we clear it fast we can go both to center where we can have advantage vs enemy team. Because that I prefer to have good CW in my team instead anything other.
I know that is the way to have a min/maxed PVP optimized character. I'm not really interested in that. Again I don't care about fighting high-end premades. I know I will lose to them every time. I just want to take my existing PVE CW, with 12 CON and 25k HP, and put some gear on to give it a little bit more HP, and to have a reasonably enjoyable time when pugging. That's all.
I have a sub-optimal PvP build (Tiefling with 15 CON) and I recently changed from Grim Thaumaturge to Grim Oppressor gear to boost my attack stats. With a tweak to my accessories I have around 26k HP and I don't notice any decrease in survivability from the higher value I had with the Thaum gear. I still have fun in most Pug matches and don't die too often unless my team is terribad (and no amount of HP will compensate for that).
Of course I aim to increase HP to as close to 30k as I can get (I only have R6 enchants right now) but it's playable as long as you know how to dodge and when to run.
This is different. It is not the same as just swapping out one encounter with another. It is an entirely different way of using the same encounter. It is completely different to how it is used in PVE.
I don't know how to explain it. It would be as if the PVP version of, say, Takedown, only worked at a distance. So your GWF tries to use Takedown on the guy right in front of you, and it doesn't work, because it targeted the guy across the room that you weren't intending to target. But in PVE, Takedown works "normally", i.e., on the mob right in front of you. Do you imagine how confusing that would be? And that if you were pretty much only interested in PVE but decided to wander into PVP every now and then, that it would be a big struggle to try to learn two different ways of trying to do the same thing?
I don't see it that way. I see it more like if takedown suddenly worked at range in PVP if slotted a certain way. Why the hell wouldn't a GWF use it?
Same with shard.
If you stop looking at it as a problem and see it as an opportunity, you're more likely to want to learn how to use it.
I find control wizards painful in pvp. But I'm a GF so maybe its just my point of view ;P
I find, in pvp, there are two types of control wizards. The ones who pick you up and kill you in seconds, or the ones who aren't fast enough to take control and then die as a result.
I find they don't have the durability for pvp unless they're in control - in control they're a nightmare for my class, if they're too slow or are distracted, they are not hard to kill so long as you act fast.
Actually, this also depends on YOUR team comp. If you have a cw or 2 who know what theyre doing(throwing support cc, letting the tanks tank), I would actually find team 1( GWF, DC, GF, CW, TR) harder than team 2(2 GWF, HR, DC, TR).
Here's why: CW if left alone are more annoying than most other classes. In 1v1 situations, theyre in a bad place right now. But this is 5v5(or 20v20 in gauntlgrym) pvp fighting. Yes, any class left alone is annoying, but a control wizard with his buddy tanks tanking for him is an auto win button. They can control their target(s) to the point where the enemy might as well wait for a respawn. It comes down to how the team functions.
In the case of team 1: You already have 2 tanks basically(GWF & GF), a DC to heal/buff/debuff, a TR(most likely a perma) to annoy players/contest nodes), and a CW ready to freeze/stun/prone/choke you if you decide to go after him(leaving the node for the enemy, while their tanks may kick the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of your back), or get controlled by him, while dealing with the GF/GWF stunlocking you into oblivion.
In the case of team 2: You now have 3 potential node contesters(GWF/GF/TR), a DC to heal/buff/debuff, and an HR to ping you(if mostly archery), or melee you(mostly melee). What you don't have is someone trying a cc rotation to pretty much ensure those melee fighters get to toy with you.
Too many people put too much in 1v1 fights... This is 5v5 and 20v20 pvp. You will most likely have to stare down multiple opponents. That's why CWs get targeted, for example. Not so much cuz theyre an easy fight, but in a better coordinated team, they are capable of much more than people are whining about. Not saying theyre up there in the pvp pecking order, just people forget that the domination gametype isn't about 1v1 duels. Its about 5v5 and 20v20 mass battles over node contesting, if coordinated. Good tank in the party, CW shouldn't be contesting the node anyway, the tanks are the frontline defense, while squishies do their work from the rear.
PVP doesn't always go the way you want. But if I was playing premade versus premade, or pug versus pug, id fight team 2 before id fight team 1. Premade versus pug, team lineups usually don't even matter. Roflstomp...
This maybe so, however if Team A has 5 GWF and Team B has 5 CW who's winning?
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Everyone keeps talking about the CW having control as a defense? What control?
Our CC lasts 0.5-1.0 seconds and then we have to try and follow that up with something maybe get a Shard out if it doesn't vanish, get taken away, knocked back, or disappear...
We have no control, we are Control Wizards that cannot control? It would be like having a GWF carry a butter knife to the battle! What if GF couldn't block? CW need some help in PvP and its pretty ridiculous.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Everyone keeps talking about the CW having control as a defense? What control?
Our CC lasts 0.5-1.0 seconds and then we have to try and follow that up with something maybe get a Shard out if it doesn't vanish, get taken away, knocked back, or disappear...
We have no control, we are Control Wizards that cannot control? It would be like having a GWF carry a butter knife to the battle! What if GF couldn't block? CW need some help in PvP and its pretty ridiculous.
Would you say that there is another class with more control than the CW?
I personally like the fact that Tenacity made everyone harder to control, but CWs still have the most control out of any class by far. I don't think control is the issue here.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Would you say that there is another class with more control than the CW?
I personally like the fact that Tenacity made everyone harder to control, but CWs still have the most control out of any class by far. I don't think control is the issue here.
Yes, GWF's frontline surge, takedown and daily. Prone = control
HR's grasping roots.
TR's can throw a smoke bomb, go perma-stealth and ITC.
The CW's control is overrated. Too many skills to gain immunity from it, CW's shard is too easy to bug out
To me, a big factor to also consider is that most of these other classes have versatile abilities to get control immunity.
Yes, GWF's frontline surge, takedown and daily. Prone = control
HR's grasping roots.
TR's can throw a smoke bomb, go perma-stealth and ITC.
The CW's control is overrated. Too many skills to gain immunity from it, CW's shard is too easy to bug out
To me, a big factor to also consider is that most of these other classes have versatile abilities to get control immunity.
Frontline > Takedown > Daily would be the longest possible control combo that a GWF can pull off.
Compare this to the longest possible control combo a CW can pull off : Icy Root > Entangle > Shard > Ice Knife > Shardsplosion > Chill Strike(or something similar). That will give you around nine seconds of non-stop control. This is also complete control, meaning the enemy can do absolutely nothing at all during this entire duration, except smash buttons to no result (excluding control immunities). It can also be done from 80 feet away.
HR/TR roots/stuns/dazes are a laughable comparison to the amount of control CW has.
My only point here is that CW has by far the most control out of any class in the game. Control is not the issue.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Frontline > Takedown > Daily would be the longest possible control combo that a GWF can pull off.
Compare this to the longest possible control combo a CW can pull off : Icy Root > Entangle > Shard > Ice Knife > Shardsplosion > Chill Strike(or something similar). That will give you around nine seconds of non-stop control. This is also complete control, meaning the enemy can do absolutely nothing at all during this entire duration, except smash buttons to no result (excluding control immunities). It can also be done from 80 feet away.
HR/TR roots/stuns/dazes are a laughable comparison to the amount of control CW has.
My only point here is that CW has by far the most control out of any class in the game. Control is not the issue.
Right, but as soon as the GWF pops up unstoppable, the CW's rotation is rendered ineffective in terms of control. A perma-TR will only go out of stealth to pop Impossible to catch. Again, rendering CW's control as useless.
Control is the issue IMO.
"Control" is CW's defensive ability and since there are so many counters and immunities to it, it is ineffective.
Control is the issue. If the Control class is being controlled by damage classes and tanks due to the opposing classes immunity to the said control classes abilities then yes, it is an issue. GWF and TRs are better at control simply because they cant be. On paper I'd takr a CW any day, but this isnt paper.
Yes, GWF's frontline surge, takedown and daily. Prone = control
HR's grasping roots.
TR's can throw a smoke bomb, go perma-stealth and ITC.
The CW's control is overrated. Too many skills to gain immunity from it, CW's shard is too easy to bug out
To me, a big factor to also consider is that most of these other classes have versatile abilities to get control immunity.
smoke bomb has to be one of the worst encounters in pvp lol. its just slows u down a bit and u walk out of it unharmed.trs who slot it dont have even one dmg encounter.
Right, but as soon as the GWF pops up unstoppable, the CW's rotation is rendered ineffective in terms of control. A perma-TR will only go out of stealth to pop Impossible to catch. Again, rendering CW's control as useless.
Control is the issue IMO.
"Control" is CW's defensive ability and since there are so many counters and immunities to it, it is ineffective.
That is true for everyone. Cw does need help though. They are the only class that gets easier as you progress in gear and skill level.
Control is the issue. If the Control class is being controlled by damage classes and tanks due to the opposing classes immunity to the said control classes abilities then yes, it is an issue. GWF and TRs are better at control simply because they cant be. On paper I'd takr a CW any day, but this isnt paper.
This is SPOT ON! CW have control yes more so then other classes, however in pvp that control is the CW only defense other then trying to dodge away which doesn't work often enough... Other classes were given ways to prevent control and then given tenacity that lessens that very control!
A CW as of now uses a CC and its duration is 0.5 -1.0 second, you cannot be effective doing anything within a 1 second window then add the fact we the CW have virtually low DR, no escape tools and you are left with a broken pvp class.
Tenacity maybe should NOT effect control times and only crits and damage resistance? This would even things out.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Tenacity maybe should NOT effect control times and only crits and damage resistance? This would even things out.
Then CWs would be whinging that the prones last too long.
A good CW is still a menace, even though it still lacks the mash-your-face-on-the-keyboard IWIN abilities of a PoB/SE TR. They need a little more survivability, but they are still interesting in the hands of a good player.
Rubbish CWs, on the other hand, are really easy pickings- survival depends on being active and vigilant.
This maybe so, however if Team A has 5 GWF and Team B has 5 CW who's winning?
You shouldnt have needed to ask this man. Both of the teams i pointed out(as per the person who posted the lineups) had AT LEAST 2 node cappers(GWFs/GFs) and a contester(TRs). The lineup was more fairly balanced. I know, as should others, that CWs are NOT node contesters. They cant sit in a small area, taking enemy attacks. The domination gametype requires node capping, hence the advantage clearly goes to those classes made to harass/cap nodes(TRs,GFs,GWFs,and non archery HRs).
Unless the enemy team's premade(and even then, what premade would have a makeup that underpowered?) Most queued matches leads to a mix of a different team comps(although the 5 gwf makeup isnt unheard of, everyone knows theyre at the top of pvp right now).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Tenacity maybe should NOT effect control times and only crits and damage resistance? This would even things out.
I think the main advantage of CWs in the past was "permacontrol". Running 4k recovery, i could basically chain control an enemy to death. The devs said they introduced tenacity to prevent fights to be based on solely high burst damage(which CWs had) and chaining control powers(which CWs could also do). Tenacity basically hurt both of these.
What i think(and what i originally heard about) was that they were supposed to get a control bonus. Which ended up not happening i guess?(doesnt look that way anyway). What i wish they thought of was tenacity giving them a control boost. take away their crit reduction boost with tenacity to make it a control bonus boost. Any thoughts on this suggestion?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Yes, GWF's frontline surge, takedown and daily. Prone = control
HR's grasping roots.
TR's can throw a smoke bomb, go perma-stealth and ITC.
The CW's control is overrated. Too many skills to gain immunity from it, CW's shard is too easy to bug out.
Not saying fighters' prones shouldnt be resistable, but heres a problem with your lineup of the other classes:
HR: grasping roots is only useful versus melee. If an HR rooted a CW, would that CW even care? If not for disruptive shot and constricting arrow, HRs are easy pickings for CWs.
TR:smoke bomb=walk out of aoe. By the way, by slotting that, they a)have one less damage dealing power, b)if they were perma, slotting this means theyre not perma anymore, and tenacity screwed them over too, to the point where all but the gutsy rogues want to be perma now.
To me, a big factor to also consider is that most of these other classes have versatile abilities to get control immunity.
True, but the classes prescribed are also MELEE classes(you forgot HRs dont really have control immunity. Forest Meditation shouldnt be accounted for, because they cant attack or activate anything, and just sit there).
Melee classes have to have some way break cc/disrupt their target... or else the game WOULD be all about CWs. You take away control immunity, a team of CWs would be invincible... You couldnt approach them.
The balance is now too much on control immunity, true... but it used to be the other way too... CWs were allowed to rule a battlefield by chain controlling targets, and people didnt want that either.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I think the main advantage of CWs in the past was "permacontrol". Running 4k recovery, i could basically chain control an enemy to death. The devs said they introduced tenacity to prevent fights to be based on solely high burst damage(which CWs had) and chaining control powers(which CWs could also do). Tenacity basically hurt both of these.
What i think(and what i originally heard about) was that they were supposed to get a control bonus. Which ended up not happening i guess?(doesnt look that way anyway). What i wish they thought of was tenacity giving them a control boost. take away their crit reduction boost with tenacity to make it a control bonus boost. Any thoughts on this suggestion?
Yes but with Tenacity CW no longer have so much burst potential, never mind time to cast! If Tenacity didn't lessen CC times all ccs would be the same as in pve yet all damage would be less is that not Balanced?
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Comments
How? I can only barely manage 28k with Thaum Grim gear.
Unless you are boasting 1.7k regen, you are seriously misgeared for PVP with that HP.
You can post your gear in the CW class forum. A lot of people will be able to take a look at it and help you out
I am not interested in speccing for HARDCORE BEAST PVP CW mode. I am not interested in elite high-end premade PVP. I don't care one bit about those things.
Make a Halfling, Max CON to 20 (21 with campfire buff).
At least 5 Defensive gear slots (Armor, Pants, Rings x2, Belt)
Rank 9-10 Radiants in Defense slots.
Profound Thaum Gear
That should get you near 37-38k HP.
PS: Two new Artifacts in Module 3 (GWF and new PVP Artifact) with give 1600HP and 1200HP each.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I don't think fixing ArmPen will help CWs as that's an offensive buff (fix), but the problem CWs are having is defensive. Fixing ArmPen will raise CW damage, which will be bad for PVE, and do little in PVP. I agree with #2, but I don't think that that will be enough. The way I see it, CWs were built to have options to keep enemies from coming to them. This is similar to HR's main defense mobility. HRs are able to survive in PVP because they move around so quickly that it's hard to keep up with them in order to hit them. CWs should have something similar, except instead of boosting their own mobility, they should be able to reduce other's mobility. This is what gave me the idea to increase slow severity on stacks of chill. As it stands, CW's only way of keeping distance is through CC, and their CC is too short to allow them to control the fight.
Like I said earlier, I think any buff to the CW should be related to the idea of a CW, that being control. CWs should not be DPS, and they should not be tanks. Their purpose is to control, and honestly their control is broken currently. Increasing control while reducing damage also fixes the problems plaguing PVE. With more control, a single CW can handle the mobs, while not being strong enough to kill them giving place for other classes to join in, most notably GWFs and HRs.
I don't blame you. It is fun to play as though.
But in a PM vs PM where your guild's name is on the line, don't take a CW. Unless of course, you know that your guild is much better than theirs....then you could probably get away with it.
This is a very reasonable demand. I really don't think you are losing so very often. I started 4 toons at low ELO and went through many defeats with each of them when I pugged, but I won some as well. I met many PvE CWs, many of them completely clueless, and they got away with it just because the other team was even worse.
As for the instances where you do get stomped, this is an (intentional?) failure of the matchmaking. probably to shorten queue duration.
However, as with most things in this game, getting decent at one thing needs practice. You cannot dabble, and be good at it. I'm still learning new stuff for each of my toons after almost a year of PvP.
About being paired with PvP "pros". This can be done, but it needs Cryptic's attention. In other MMOs there are ranked matches within leagues - this is where PvPers will be found. There are also non-ranked matches for those that wanna have some fun, "dabble" in the system.
But for now, expect to find PvPers with or against you. This is why you should prepare for the worst, as others said before me, by wearing full defensive accessories and PvP gear.
armor pen doesnt matter in pve on a cw. if you are running high vizier's you are already bringing trash mobs/bosses defense into negative values, on top of other debuffs of dc's/gwfs
so that is no reason for devs to not fix armor pen
If you think that 'slow' will help you vs GWF's Unstoppable or vs TR's Stealth you are in mistake.
I am agree with you, in pvp most situation are not 1vs1 and in them CW help much with its CC. As HR I prefer to help with burst dmg on CW that control someone than this to do 1vs1 with other one that running around. With one CW when we go on our Cap we can clear it from TR for 1 rotation which one is 5-15 sec which is far fastest than this I to go alone to kill him. When we clear it fast we can go both to center where we can have advantage vs enemy team. Because that I prefer to have good CW in my team instead anything other.
Of course I aim to increase HP to as close to 30k as I can get (I only have R6 enchants right now) but it's playable as long as you know how to dodge and when to run.
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I don't see it that way. I see it more like if takedown suddenly worked at range in PVP if slotted a certain way. Why the hell wouldn't a GWF use it?
Same with shard.
If you stop looking at it as a problem and see it as an opportunity, you're more likely to want to learn how to use it.
I find, in pvp, there are two types of control wizards. The ones who pick you up and kill you in seconds, or the ones who aren't fast enough to take control and then die as a result.
I find they don't have the durability for pvp unless they're in control - in control they're a nightmare for my class, if they're too slow or are distracted, they are not hard to kill so long as you act fast.
This maybe so, however if Team A has 5 GWF and Team B has 5 CW who's winning?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Our CC lasts 0.5-1.0 seconds and then we have to try and follow that up with something maybe get a Shard out if it doesn't vanish, get taken away, knocked back, or disappear...
We have no control, we are Control Wizards that cannot control? It would be like having a GWF carry a butter knife to the battle! What if GF couldn't block? CW need some help in PvP and its pretty ridiculous.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Would you say that there is another class with more control than the CW?
I personally like the fact that Tenacity made everyone harder to control, but CWs still have the most control out of any class by far. I don't think control is the issue here.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Yes, GWF's frontline surge, takedown and daily. Prone = control
HR's grasping roots.
TR's can throw a smoke bomb, go perma-stealth and ITC.
The CW's control is overrated. Too many skills to gain immunity from it, CW's shard is too easy to bug out
To me, a big factor to also consider is that most of these other classes have versatile abilities to get control immunity.
Frontline > Takedown > Daily would be the longest possible control combo that a GWF can pull off.
Compare this to the longest possible control combo a CW can pull off : Icy Root > Entangle > Shard > Ice Knife > Shardsplosion > Chill Strike(or something similar). That will give you around nine seconds of non-stop control. This is also complete control, meaning the enemy can do absolutely nothing at all during this entire duration, except smash buttons to no result (excluding control immunities). It can also be done from 80 feet away.
HR/TR roots/stuns/dazes are a laughable comparison to the amount of control CW has.
My only point here is that CW has by far the most control out of any class in the game. Control is not the issue.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Right, but as soon as the GWF pops up unstoppable, the CW's rotation is rendered ineffective in terms of control. A perma-TR will only go out of stealth to pop Impossible to catch. Again, rendering CW's control as useless.
Control is the issue IMO.
"Control" is CW's defensive ability and since there are so many counters and immunities to it, it is ineffective.
smoke bomb has to be one of the worst encounters in pvp lol. its just slows u down a bit and u walk out of it unharmed.trs who slot it dont have even one dmg encounter.
That is true for everyone. Cw does need help though. They are the only class that gets easier as you progress in gear and skill level.
This is SPOT ON! CW have control yes more so then other classes, however in pvp that control is the CW only defense other then trying to dodge away which doesn't work often enough... Other classes were given ways to prevent control and then given tenacity that lessens that very control!
A CW as of now uses a CC and its duration is 0.5 -1.0 second, you cannot be effective doing anything within a 1 second window then add the fact we the CW have virtually low DR, no escape tools and you are left with a broken pvp class.
Tenacity maybe should NOT effect control times and only crits and damage resistance? This would even things out.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Then CWs would be whinging that the prones last too long.
A good CW is still a menace, even though it still lacks the mash-your-face-on-the-keyboard IWIN abilities of a PoB/SE TR. They need a little more survivability, but they are still interesting in the hands of a good player.
Rubbish CWs, on the other hand, are really easy pickings- survival depends on being active and vigilant.
You shouldnt have needed to ask this man. Both of the teams i pointed out(as per the person who posted the lineups) had AT LEAST 2 node cappers(GWFs/GFs) and a contester(TRs). The lineup was more fairly balanced. I know, as should others, that CWs are NOT node contesters. They cant sit in a small area, taking enemy attacks. The domination gametype requires node capping, hence the advantage clearly goes to those classes made to harass/cap nodes(TRs,GFs,GWFs,and non archery HRs).
Unless the enemy team's premade(and even then, what premade would have a makeup that underpowered?) Most queued matches leads to a mix of a different team comps(although the 5 gwf makeup isnt unheard of, everyone knows theyre at the top of pvp right now).
I think the main advantage of CWs in the past was "permacontrol". Running 4k recovery, i could basically chain control an enemy to death. The devs said they introduced tenacity to prevent fights to be based on solely high burst damage(which CWs had) and chaining control powers(which CWs could also do). Tenacity basically hurt both of these.
What i think(and what i originally heard about) was that they were supposed to get a control bonus. Which ended up not happening i guess?(doesnt look that way anyway). What i wish they thought of was tenacity giving them a control boost. take away their crit reduction boost with tenacity to make it a control bonus boost. Any thoughts on this suggestion?
Not saying fighters' prones shouldnt be resistable, but heres a problem with your lineup of the other classes:
HR: grasping roots is only useful versus melee. If an HR rooted a CW, would that CW even care? If not for disruptive shot and constricting arrow, HRs are easy pickings for CWs.
TR:smoke bomb=walk out of aoe. By the way, by slotting that, they a)have one less damage dealing power, b)if they were perma, slotting this means theyre not perma anymore, and tenacity screwed them over too, to the point where all but the gutsy rogues want to be perma now.
True, but the classes prescribed are also MELEE classes(you forgot HRs dont really have control immunity. Forest Meditation shouldnt be accounted for, because they cant attack or activate anything, and just sit there).
Melee classes have to have some way break cc/disrupt their target... or else the game WOULD be all about CWs. You take away control immunity, a team of CWs would be invincible... You couldnt approach them.
The balance is now too much on control immunity, true... but it used to be the other way too... CWs were allowed to rule a battlefield by chain controlling targets, and people didnt want that either.
Yes but with Tenacity CW no longer have so much burst potential, never mind time to cast! If Tenacity didn't lessen CC times all ccs would be the same as in pve yet all damage would be less is that not Balanced?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!