i'm 99% sure this game doesn't have a single pvp dev. i refuse to believe ANYONE could be this lazy/out of touch. its stunning.
shame. the combat is great and it could be so great but some stupid mechs no balance,no understanding of pvp on any level form the devs.
Well, I think giving the CW more control power would render DCs and GFs near useless, at least for the GF I am unable to see any light anymore then, because only other range classes or a GWF is able to counter effectively the control power a CW has now; the GWF with Unstoppable and the other range classes with their range while they are not stunned or proned but rooted; am I wrong?
No, im going on the fact that they dont need MORE control power. Heck, theyre the class with the most(both in # of encounters, and capability). Im going on the fact that tenacity hurt the duration of their cc, and moves like repel are considered garbage now. Although, when they had too much, my CW killed all but gwf's in 1 control rotation. Tenacity came out to make fights last longer, ie, not come down to burst damage 1 shot games, where all you needed was a well placed shard, ice knife, lashing blade to 1 hit someone before they had a chance. Theyve admitted that tenacity pvp was introduced to make battles longer. Only problem for CWs is that cc was their defense. I, and others, have said that this did weaken their pvp viability.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
But it's fine. Since you're too modest for it, I'll do what's supposed to be done.
velynna here is the leader of the best PvP guild on the game for many many months. She has lead numerous premade teams consisting of the best players we have in the game to almost as many victories. Her guild also has the best CWs in the game, so she has some serious insight into the problem. She is also probably the best DC in the game.
So it's pretty dumb to talk to her like she's never seen PvP or she's some PvE CW with 20K HP begging for some buff. If you were PvP players yourselves, you would know to show respect to who deserves it.[/QUOTE]
you 2 get a room already! I can smell the brown threw my monitor....But I bet your the best Toadi?
Look I play CW and I pvp and to get back on topic CW need help in pvp and the best advice I have seen if the armor pen also a glitter dust power that reveals stealth TR's/HR would be handy as a store buy item for any class.
and possibly a invisibility spell power no dmg from stealth just invisible and if u attack anyone you become visible no bonus dmg and you still take normal dmg when invisible. wizards been doing it in d&d since 1st ed. and yes the same glimer dust would reveal u.
Those were my words you quoted above. You have anything against what I said or what?
It's called showing respect to who deserves it and who earned it. This doesn't include scrubs that never saw a serious PvP match and their only "in-game" occupation is to flame true PvPers in forums and act intellectual, when they actually know squat.
That's our entire topic here fellah! Our CC is virtually useless and you yourself can attest to it, as you just said "CWs that run DPS encounters rather than CC cause my TR more issues." Thats because our CC is ridiculous and lasts 0.5 -1 seconds and that isn't enough time to do anything.
Guess what .5-1 seconds IS enough time to do? Answer: Drop a shard on their head.
But yeah, all CC will suck against rogues because of ITC. CC could last 10 seconds and it won't do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> against a rogue in ITC.
Against an HR it's a different story. Besides dodge they have no way to avoid CC.
I got a complaint from what seemed like an equally geared CW today about HRs being OP while I was playing my HR. Meanwhile he had double-enfeeble on tab instead of shard, so his best CC was to get me with icy rays and entangle me. That's it.
I could've dueled him 100 times and he'd never beat me without shard. If he had it on tab to follow up his icy root/entangle, he'd have a good shot at beating me (making sure not to use it when I have constricting arrow on him). I use max-CC setup of constricting, boar's and foxshift so it would be difficult, but basically doable if he just dodges well when I have constricting on him. Absolutely impossible without shard though.
You can't complain about CW CC being bad if you're not even using the best CC available, basically in the entire game, a double prone you can use at range that does tons of damage.
I have played this off and on since beta. Several issues such as this have come up many times, but for the most part i think the devs have done well to keep things fair. I play a GF and ive never had real trouble with any class 1v1 with the exception of GWfs. In my opinion, emphasis on opinion, GWFs have more going than any class for pvp. Damage res, high power,crit, and self-healing make taking them down almost impossible without help, and my gs is 16.5k+,[conqueror dps build]. But even after all that i think its in good shape. The biggest "problem" with pvp is people with little to no experience pvping. Hard to win playin with randoms when everyone has a different idea about what is happening in game. Sorry about the rant, PS looking for guild to join for new module. hrist@polishedghost
Guess what .5-1 seconds IS enough time to do? Answer: Drop a shard on their head.
But yeah, all CC will suck against rogues because of ITC. CC could last 10 seconds and it won't do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> against a rogue in ITC.
Against an HR it's a different story. Besides dodge they have no way to avoid CC.
I got a complaint from what seemed like an equally geared CW today about HRs being OP while I was playing my HR. Meanwhile he had double-enfeeble on tab instead of shard, so his best CC was to get me with icy rays and entangle me. That's it.
I could've dueled him 100 times and he'd never beat me without shard. If he had it on tab to follow up his icy root/entangle, he'd have a good shot at beating me (making sure not to use it when I have constricting arrow on him). I use max-CC setup of constricting, boar's and foxshift so it would be difficult, but basically doable if he just dodges well when I have constricting on him. Absolutely impossible without shard though.
You can't complain about CW CC being bad if you're not even using the best CC available, basically in the entire game, a double prone you can use at range that does tons of damage.
Double RoE on tab is a classic Renegade build. It's a perfectly viable PvP spec - or at least it was prior to Tenacity. Some top Renegade players were able to take and hold point almost as effectively as a GWF. It relied on EF and Repel for CC though and both of those encounters got hit hard by Tenacity.
Shard is not the best CC in the game (for PvP at least) for the simple reason that it requires another CC to hold the target in place before you can hit them with it. Or for someone to be completely unaware of their surroundings. The 0.5-1s you say is 'long enough' to land a shard on someone's head is marginal, by the way. It's extremely easy to miss.
Long story short - Shard is not the killer encounter it used to be. Not by a long way.
Other people here think playing with their friends all day is "0MG S0 1337."
The vast majority of PvP in Neverwinter is PuG. Your "elitest" microcosm of shut-ins comprise a relatively small portion of the community.
Relatively small? The competitive community of Neverwinter is small in relative and absolute terms as well. Which is why an opinion about PvP balance from a player in the competitive community holds the same weight as a player that only joins PuGs.
Double RoE on tab is a classic Renegade build. It's a perfectly viable PvP spec - or at least it was prior to Tenacity. Some top Renegade players were able to take and hold point almost as effectively as a GWF. It relied on EF and Repel for CC though and both of those encounters got hit hard by Tenacity.
Shard is not the best CC in the game (for PvP at least) for the simple reason that it requires another CC to hold the target in place before you can hit them with it. Or for someone to be completely unaware of their surroundings. The 0.5-1s you say is 'long enough' to land a shard on someone's head is marginal, by the way. It's extremely easy to miss.
Long story short - Shard is not the killer encounter it used to be. Not by a long way.
Everything does less. That doesn't mean you stop using the most powerful of the lesser encounters.
Yes, it takes CC to set up 1v1, but once set up it provides by far the most CC you can dish out.
It's the single best thing you can do to follow up icy roots and entangle. If you don't use it, what do you follow that up with?
It turns your potential .5-1 second CC into 4-5 seconds and does more damage than double enfeeble.
Everything does less. That doesn't mean you stop using the most powerful of the lesser encounters.
Yes, it takes CC to set up 1v1, but once set up it provides by far the most CC you can dish out.
It's the single best thing you can do to follow up icy roots and entangle. If you don't use it, what do you follow that up with?
It turns your potential .5-1 second CC into 4-5 seconds and does more damage than double enfeeble.
I understand your point, but not all encounters scale linearly with tenacity. If your hit rate with Shard drops below a certain point because of the decrease in the set-up CC then it becomes inefficient to use.
Missing with shard means you do zero CC and zero DPS with your Mastery encounter. That's a huge drop in overall effectiveness. You also compromise survivability as Shard use tends to limit movement. For these reasons I switched to Rays on tab for the improved damage and longer CC, COI for debuff/damage, RoE for more debuff and damage, with the 4th encounter either EF or CS depending on whether I'm playing aggressively or defensively. This gives me plenty of debuffs and DPS that I can use with short CDs and while dodging.
Works for me much better than Shard. Others are better with Shard and might still get it to work. It's all about what you can use effectively and playing to your strengths IMO.
Those were my words you quoted above. You have anything against what I said or what?
It's called showing respect to who deserves it and who earned it. This doesn't include scrubs that never saw a serious PvP match and their only "in-game" occupation is to flame true PvPers in forums and act intellectual, when they actually know squat.
Funny I play pvp every day... and I haven't seen a nice friendly match there all serious and I'm talking from lvl 10 threw 60 with every class... But I still find your "brown nosing" amusing..
Respect for a pier/friend is not publicly announcing there achievements in forums...
and Insinuating I am A scrub is a guy that thinks he's fly
And is also known as a buster
Always talkin' about what he wants
And just sits on his broke ***
A scrub is a guy that cant get no love from me
Hanging out the passenger side
Of his best-friend's ride
Trying to holler at me
Look at that scrub thinkin he can holla at me.
YOUR FOOLING YOUR SELF TOADWART...
Your man crush IS wrong... and so are you.
CW need help in pvp tenacity DID make all other classes have a unfair advantage over them there control and dmg is all that set them apart... and there only defense.
most matches are not 2 groups zerging around in a constant skirmish there isolates 2 on 2 or 2 on 1 on individual nodes you already know this if you haven't seen this by now I welcome you to step down from you ivory tower back into the trenches where the real pvp is happening, without there control and now reduced dmg due to tenacity as well and no real support combined with the fact a wizard is a S.E.T that's slow easy target for any class.
every class with the exception of clerics who also need some love, have armor pen and good armor pen a wizard has cloth armor that's right... its a guy in pajamas slinging spells that now have control effects that last only a few seconds at best and a second usually and is against other classes which can cut him to ribbons in seconds.
there are 2 Classes that are all but immune to control anyway GWF and GF then there are clerics as hard and harder to kill than tanks thanks to gear and enhancements and there astral shield, and a TR who in pvp is almost always a perma stealth shark in the dark water's... TR who's control works better in pvp than a CW and can stealth away and self heal and or interrupt our encounters thanks to long activation times...
Look here lackyboy every person responding on this thread play pvp and as such have experience, and yes not all have epic gear and play in a pvp guild and have a pure pvp toon.. and thats fine.
to assume they and I Dont know SQUAT...
KID YOUR THE ONE Hanging out the passenger side
Of his best-friend's ride
Trying to holler at me; and tell me how great you are.
you post had nothing to do with the issue being discussed and trashing someone for there opinion on the issue at hand when they never personally attack the person only the opinion is a double whammy of stupidity.
Also it shows your age kid!
You and many other are so wrapped up in winning any match. you will argue to keep the cloth punching bag for what... your leader board score?
If you are so elite why not roll a cw not use any AD resources you may have earned for your enhancements and gear and pvp as a wizard to lvl 60 pug style.
like any new player and see pvp from a new player and a "lack of control wizards" P.O.V you will see what ppl here are saying is true.
There not crying wolf or begging for an edge; there trying to to get just a little more even ground that tenacity took away.
you might start singing a different tune when your the punching bag for change.
I understand your point, but not all encounters scale linearly with tenacity. If your hit rate with Shard drops below a certain point because of the decrease in the set-up CC then it becomes inefficient to use.
Missing with shard means you do zero CC and zero DPS with your Mastery encounter. That's a huge drop in overall effectiveness. You also compromise survivability as Shard use tends to limit movement. For these reasons I switched to Rays on tab for the improved damage and longer CC, COI for debuff/damage, RoE for more debuff and damage, with the 4th encounter either EF or CS depending on whether I'm playing aggressively or defensively. This gives me plenty of debuffs and DPS that I can use with short CDs and while dodging.
Works for me much better than Shard. Others are better with Shard and might still get it to work. It's all about what you can use effectively and playing to your strengths IMO.
Well, I agree you should play towards your strengths. I just very much recommend people really try using it on tab before using something else.
And the thing with missing it is it's still around unless you get bugged out by a daze. Usually I get multiple tries to hit someone with it, although the initial drop is the best because you can easily do the second prone right away before they get up.
I've been killing CWs left and right on my HR and I just met one that is good with shard and she kicked my ***.
I also brought out my CW who is gutted on enchants for my main the HR, just to see if I was remembering correctly, and she did great with it.
Nice post. I'm very impressed. I'm a girl by the way, so you're quite wrong with the man-crush thing. Other than this, I don't see why I would entertain you more. See you in the game, where you will probably remain in spawn and QQ when against my team
Well, I agree you should play towards your strengths. I just very much recommend people really try using it on tab before using something else.
And the thing with missing it is it's still around unless you get bugged out by a daze. Usually I get multiple tries to hit someone with it, although the initial drop is the best because you can easily do the second prone right away before they get up.
I've been killing CWs left and right on my HR and I just met one that is good with shard and she kicked my ***.
I also brought out my CW who is gutted on enchants for my main the HR, just to see if I was remembering correctly, and she did great with it.
Oddly, I have more trouble with Renegade mages than Shard throwers. I can dodge Shard, throw CA at them and that's normally game over. A Renegade has really short cast time and CD encounters that are easy to fire off even when under CA and do way more DPS - especially when a double RoE is eating away at your defences and HP.
The problem is not tenacity. The problem is that CW powers need to be readjusted based on the current effects of tenacity.
I don't know why few people are pointing out that atm HR control potential is way WAY better than a CW's in most situations. Atm even a survivability-focused HR with the right feats and some luck can more or less "control" something to death, given enough time. Considering Grasping Roots proc rate and the unique property it has that allows it to interrupt just about any action (including dodging), if you want a working template for how a CW should be performing in PvP your best is to simply take a careful look at the current state of the HR class. They're basically how CWs should be in PVP, except perhaps with less single target DPS but more burst/AoE damage potential. And squishier.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Repel is working as it used to against my halflings, almost not at all. Fought a few repel wizards earlier today and even as they were using Magic Missile and ray (so full stack all time basically), they couldn't achieve more than a small stun 50% of the times.
This is one of the biggest problems I'm having at the moment. I cannot rely on Repel as a "pusher" anymore. But it is an instant stun that can interrupt lots of rotations and that is enough to throw an Entangling Force immediately afterwards. I'm not happy with it, but you gotta take what you can get. I better be an HR/CW/GWF killer with decent burst than a punching bag that only becomes useful when my team would probably win 4v5 without me.
I wish we had more reliable control. On the other hand, I don't think that there is a better counter to HR than CW (Renegade).
So, nerfing Tenacity back to before? I think there is more to gain from nerfing HRs control powers and GWFs Unstoppable and TRs Stealth but breaking Tenacity down? I do not agree on that.
So, nerfing Tenacity back to before? I think there is more to gain from nerfing HRs control powers and GWFs Unstoppable and TRs Stealth but breaking Tenacity down? I do not agree on that.
So you proposing that 3 classes should be nerfed, so that the Control Wizard (one class) has a better time in PvP? Right on.
So, nerfing Tenacity back to before? I think there is more to gain from nerfing HRs control powers and GWFs Unstoppable and TRs Stealth but breaking Tenacity down? I do not agree on that.
quite frankly, chill is just a slow that needs to be stacked 7 times in order to freeze someone (which is the real cc part). for as long as that takes, having a debuff last longer than 1 second in pvp would be appreciated.
quite frankly, chill is just a slow that needs to be stacked 7 times in order to freeze someone (which is the real cc part). for as long as that takes, having a debuff last longer than 1 second in pvp would be appreciated.
Everything got a reason why it goes this way. Since it goes for one year and no one complained about it, i assume that every cw not very fond of "extending chill stacks duration by 1 sec". Maybe the duration is enough for them in pvp and extending it by one sec doesn't matter much. If i remember correctly, there are some feats that help to build chill stacks so i think you should take those feats if you want to maintain high freeze frequency on enemies. I don't play a cw, correct me if i am wrong.
Everything got a reason why it goes this way. Since it goes for one year and no one complained about it, i assume that every cw not very fond of "extending chill stacks duration by 1 sec". Maybe the duration is enough for them in pvp and extending it by one sec doesn't matter much. If i remember correctly, there are some feats that help to build chill stacks so i think you should take those feats if you want to maintain high freeze frequency on enemies. I don't play a cw, correct me if i am wrong.
you aren't wrong. it's just annoying that i lose the whole stack for dodging.
This is one of the biggest problems I'm having at the moment. I cannot rely on Repel as a "pusher" anymore. But it is an instant stun that can interrupt lots of rotations and that is enough to throw an Entangling Force immediately afterwards. I'm not happy with it, but you gotta take what you can get. I better be an HR/CW/GWF killer with decent burst than a punching bag that only becomes useful when my team would probably win 4v5 without me.
I wish we had more reliable control. On the other hand, I don't think that there is a better counter to HR than CW (Renegade).
I don't know why you guys keep bringing up the renegade spec as a counter to HR. I don't see anything in it besides some extra damage and so-so debuff from magic missle. Maybe I'm missing something?
CWs are by far the easiest prey for my HR if they aren't using shard. I 2v1ed a couple of ability spamming CWs today on my HR.
Without shard, my HR puts out more damage and even more CC than a CW. With it, they're equal. CW prone (shard) is harder to land, but it can prone twice so it's roughly equal to boar rush (and it does way more damage- does more damage than ice knife).
I'm going to shut up about shard though. After fighting a match where 2 CWs kicked our entire teams asses both with shard-on-tab, I'm scared CWs are reading this. The last thing my HR needs is every CW to be using shard on tab.
***
Back to the OP, after playing my CW a little more, I think the main thing that needs to happen is either:
- fix armor penetration so it works on all skills (ice knife is like a joke now)
- make the "CWs ignore a part of tenacity" actually meaningful. I'm not sure anyone has ever felt like a CW's control lasts longer than other classes.
When tenacity was introduced, it mentioned that CWs were going to be exceptional in that they will have inherent penetration of tenacity. So I'm guessing there's code for it already in the game. Whatever it is they need to at least double the effect.
So you proposing that 3 classes should be nerfed, so that the Control Wizard (one class) has a better time in PvP? Right on.
I do propose that some Powers are too effective after more and more playing with and against these Powers, actually just two classes (GWF and TR) seem to have Powers (Unstoppable and permanent Stealth) which are too effective. All classes are part of the whole picture and the whole picture is all that matters for a game and there is no need nor use to feed the ego trolls who just want to feel superior.
All this "buff me! buff my class!" has never brought about any good, it is no balancing is is only another patch for a patchwork rug.
I do, actually just two (GWF and TR) as all classes are part of the whole picture and the whole picture is all that matters for a game and there is no need nor use to feed the ego trolls who just want to feel superior.
All this "buff me! buff my class!" has never brought about any good, it is no balancing is is only another patch for a patchwork rug.
It would seemed to me that more good comes from buffs then nerfs. The nerfs can ruin an entire build, hurt pve or both. The CW fan base has probably put out enough suggestions to pool from to get a feasible buff. I play a gwif, I don't want any more nerf action than what is planned for mod 3. I don't want to see rogues hit either (sorry rogue haters) as I enjoy the competition on the end caps with a strong perma. What I do wanna see is the CWs get tossed a bone, make them competitive in pvp again so I have to worry about them. There is another class that really needs help, as well...
Buff 'em up, let them be capable of what they are supposed to be capable of and THEN see what needs to be toned down elsewhere. Cheers
It would seemed to me that more good comes from buffs then nerfs. The nerfs can ruin an entire build, hurt pve or both. The CW fan base has probably put out enough suggestions to pool from to get a feasible buff. I play a gwif, I don't want any more nerf action than what is planned for mod 3. I don't want to see rogues hit either (sorry rogue haters) as I enjoy the competition on the end caps with a strong perma. What I do wanna see is the CWs get tossed a bone, make them competitive in pvp again so I have to worry about them. There is another class that really needs help, as well...
Buff 'em up, let them be capable of what they are supposed to be capable of and THEN see what needs to be toned down elsewhere. Cheers
I played PWI, I saw there and on other games where this buff race leads to and I see no reason for Cryptic to do the same mistakes made so often before. If CW gets buffed then the other classes whine about it and demand a buff too and noone thinks here about the impact of this buff race in PvE and it will hit PvE likewise. Should CWs get so much buffed till Tenacity is evened out? No reason to implement Tenacity and then render it useless with demanded buffs; other classes are also affected by it and GFs whine also about it and want their control power enhanced: where should this lead to? Power Creep is never the answer we should desire.
I do, actually just two (GWF and TR) as all classes are part of the whole picture and the whole picture is all that matters for a game and there is no need nor use to feed the ego trolls who just want to feel superior.
All this "buff me! buff my class!" has never brought about any good, it is no balancing is is only another patch for a patchwork rug.
What you don't understand is the fact that this is a F2P MMO, not a subscription one. What that means is that many people buy extremely expensive stuff - specifically for certain builds. And most of the time with lots of REAL MONEY. One good example was the Tenebrous enchant.
You cannot entice people to spend 1000 USD on a new toon they specifically made for PvP superiority, with all the bells and whistles including new type of Rank 10 enchants and 3 artifacts, then in 1-2 months destroy their investment (which is happening already in this game). There are legal customer protections against this type of thing.
So what I am saying is that if developers are incompetent enough to put truly OP classes and builds out there, then they should get their act together and balance properly BEFORE preview content goes live, where we spend lots of real money.
"Nerfing" our significant investments in our leisure time is not the answer. Buff the suffering class (here the CW) to be on par with the already OP GWF/TR/HR. With buffing, you can ensure that you will keep your customers happy, as their investment is not devalued to the point of uselessness (see again Tenebrous, nobody uses them anymore, and soon the Emblem of Seldarine will be useless too).
What you don't understand is the fact that this is a F2P MMO, not a subscription one. What that means is that many people buy extremely expensive stuff - specifically for certain builds. And most of the time with lots of REAL MONEY. One good example was the Tenebrous enchant.
You cannot entice people to spend 1000 USD on a new toon they specifically made for PvP superiority, with all the bells and whistles including new type of Rank 10 enchants and 3 artifacts, then in 1-2 months destroy their investment (which is happening already in this game). There are legal customer protections against this type of thing.
So what I am saying is that if developers are incompetent enough to put truly OP classes and builds out there, then they should get their act together and balance properly BEFORE preview content goes live, where we spend lots of real money.
"Nerfing" our significant investments in our leisure time is not the answer. Buff the suffering class (here the CW) to be on par with the already OP GWF/TR/HR. With buffing, you can ensure that you will keep your customers happy, as their investment is not devalued to the point of uselessness (see again Tenebrous, nobody uses them anymore, and soon the Emblem of Seldarine will be useless too).
Though I understand your frustration about having your 100+ dollar investment become useless, know that you actually don't own anything that you paid for in any online game. Rather it is "leased" to you and can be changed at any time. So what devs have been doing is perfectly legal if not a questionable business model.
Now i wasn't here when Tenes were OP in pvp but it was so obvious that emblem was going to get nerfed given how having an emblem essentially breaks pvp all together. With emblem, GPFs and bilethorn becomes worse than useless because of DoT healing the enemy far more than anyone can damage them. These two weapon enchantments are the BiS weapon enchantments for anyone wanting to take down Pvp tanks that dominate pvp, so tankiness becomes horrendously op with absolutely no counters. Emblem also breaks class abilities that do a DoT, like deep gash, ray of enfeeblement and aimed strike for hrs, which also happens that most of these DoT abilities were also designed to COUNTER high defense/ deflect mitigation builds as well. So you have an artifact that breaks 2 of the best pvp weapon enchants in the game, as well as a number of other classes' abilities, and you thought that emblem was not going to get nerfed? really its your fault for putting money into an item that is so obviously broken that it negated the value of two very popular weapon enchants and a host of class abilities that aren't really optional.
What you don't understand is the fact that this is a F2P MMO, not a subscription one. What that means is that many people buy extremely expensive stuff - specifically for certain builds. And most of the time with lots of REAL MONEY. One good example was the Tenebrous enchant.
You cannot entice people to spend 1000 USD on a new toon they specifically made for PvP superiority, with all the bells and whistles including new type of Rank 10 enchants and 3 artifacts, then in 1-2 months destroy their investment (which is happening already in this game). There are legal customer protections against this type of thing.
So what I am saying is that if developers are incompetent enough to put truly OP classes and builds out there, then they should get their act together and balance properly BEFORE preview content goes live, where we spend lots of real money.
"Nerfing" our significant investments in our leisure time is not the answer. Buff the suffering class (here the CW) to be on par with the already OP GWF/TR/HR. With buffing, you can ensure that you will keep your customers happy, as their investment is not devalued to the point of uselessness (see again Tenebrous, nobody uses them anymore, and soon the Emblem of Seldarine will be useless too).
Sorry to tell you that GFs spent much money for certain things which got nerfed afterwards and back there they used the same arguments.
But you know what? If you cannot afford money, why do you do it? If you do, what do you expect? If PWE decides that Neverwinter is not worth running, they can stop this service at any time. So not wise to threaten them.
I did spent much money too on gear which is now useless (I had Tenebrous Enchantments, I had the Stalwart Bulwark set, I have even now more than one set, I had to reset my toon and so on) but after all, your argument is not valid because you talk about builds and builds do not need much money. Good luck next time to make a valid point.
Only thing I agree totally is the problem with Armour Penetration which needs to be fixed, this is overdue.
All propositions here mostly consist of enhancing control power or damage or weaken Tenacity: not very creative. And whilst we are at propositions from players: some GF player dreams of the GF as a future melee version of the CW with much control power
Problem in these forums is that you cannot discuss with people cause they are always angry and throw in all kinds of petty insults without making any actual points.
Also your "nerf these classes!" posts are against the rules, so I really don't know why they are still present. I shouldn't even argue with any of you, the moderators should throw your "nerf" posts directly to the trash bin.
Comments
shame. the combat is great and it could be so great but some stupid mechs no balance,no understanding of pvp on any level form the devs.
No, im going on the fact that they dont need MORE control power. Heck, theyre the class with the most(both in # of encounters, and capability). Im going on the fact that tenacity hurt the duration of their cc, and moves like repel are considered garbage now. Although, when they had too much, my CW killed all but gwf's in 1 control rotation. Tenacity came out to make fights last longer, ie, not come down to burst damage 1 shot games, where all you needed was a well placed shard, ice knife, lashing blade to 1 hit someone before they had a chance. Theyve admitted that tenacity pvp was introduced to make battles longer. Only problem for CWs is that cc was their defense. I, and others, have said that this did weaken their pvp viability.
velynna here is the leader of the best PvP guild on the game for many many months. She has lead numerous premade teams consisting of the best players we have in the game to almost as many victories. Her guild also has the best CWs in the game, so she has some serious insight into the problem. She is also probably the best DC in the game.
So it's pretty dumb to talk to her like she's never seen PvP or she's some PvE CW with 20K HP begging for some buff. If you were PvP players yourselves, you would know to show respect to who deserves it.[/QUOTE]
you 2 get a room already! I can smell the brown threw my monitor....But I bet your the best Toadi?
Look I play CW and I pvp and to get back on topic CW need help in pvp and the best advice I have seen if the armor pen also a glitter dust power that reveals stealth TR's/HR would be handy as a store buy item for any class.
and possibly a invisibility spell power no dmg from stealth just invisible and if u attack anyone you become visible no bonus dmg and you still take normal dmg when invisible. wizards been doing it in d&d since 1st ed. and yes the same glimer dust would reveal u.
It's called showing respect to who deserves it and who earned it. This doesn't include scrubs that never saw a serious PvP match and their only "in-game" occupation is to flame true PvPers in forums and act intellectual, when they actually know squat.
Guess what .5-1 seconds IS enough time to do? Answer: Drop a shard on their head.
But yeah, all CC will suck against rogues because of ITC. CC could last 10 seconds and it won't do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> against a rogue in ITC.
Against an HR it's a different story. Besides dodge they have no way to avoid CC.
I got a complaint from what seemed like an equally geared CW today about HRs being OP while I was playing my HR. Meanwhile he had double-enfeeble on tab instead of shard, so his best CC was to get me with icy rays and entangle me. That's it.
I could've dueled him 100 times and he'd never beat me without shard. If he had it on tab to follow up his icy root/entangle, he'd have a good shot at beating me (making sure not to use it when I have constricting arrow on him). I use max-CC setup of constricting, boar's and foxshift so it would be difficult, but basically doable if he just dodges well when I have constricting on him. Absolutely impossible without shard though.
You can't complain about CW CC being bad if you're not even using the best CC available, basically in the entire game, a double prone you can use at range that does tons of damage.
Shard is not the best CC in the game (for PvP at least) for the simple reason that it requires another CC to hold the target in place before you can hit them with it. Or for someone to be completely unaware of their surroundings. The 0.5-1s you say is 'long enough' to land a shard on someone's head is marginal, by the way. It's extremely easy to miss.
Long story short - Shard is not the killer encounter it used to be. Not by a long way.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Relatively small? The competitive community of Neverwinter is small in relative and absolute terms as well. Which is why an opinion about PvP balance from a player in the competitive community holds the same weight as a player that only joins PuGs.
Everything does less. That doesn't mean you stop using the most powerful of the lesser encounters.
Yes, it takes CC to set up 1v1, but once set up it provides by far the most CC you can dish out.
It's the single best thing you can do to follow up icy roots and entangle. If you don't use it, what do you follow that up with?
It turns your potential .5-1 second CC into 4-5 seconds and does more damage than double enfeeble.
Missing with shard means you do zero CC and zero DPS with your Mastery encounter. That's a huge drop in overall effectiveness. You also compromise survivability as Shard use tends to limit movement. For these reasons I switched to Rays on tab for the improved damage and longer CC, COI for debuff/damage, RoE for more debuff and damage, with the 4th encounter either EF or CS depending on whether I'm playing aggressively or defensively. This gives me plenty of debuffs and DPS that I can use with short CDs and while dodging.
Works for me much better than Shard. Others are better with Shard and might still get it to work. It's all about what you can use effectively and playing to your strengths IMO.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Funny I play pvp every day... and I haven't seen a nice friendly match there all serious and I'm talking from lvl 10 threw 60 with every class... But I still find your "brown nosing" amusing..
Respect for a pier/friend is not publicly announcing there achievements in forums...
and Insinuating I am A scrub is a guy that thinks he's fly
And is also known as a buster
Always talkin' about what he wants
And just sits on his broke ***
A scrub is a guy that cant get no love from me
Hanging out the passenger side
Of his best-friend's ride
Trying to holler at me
Look at that scrub thinkin he can holla at me.
YOUR FOOLING YOUR SELF TOADWART...
Your man crush IS wrong... and so are you.
CW need help in pvp tenacity DID make all other classes have a unfair advantage over them there control and dmg is all that set them apart... and there only defense.
most matches are not 2 groups zerging around in a constant skirmish there isolates 2 on 2 or 2 on 1 on individual nodes you already know this if you haven't seen this by now I welcome you to step down from you ivory tower back into the trenches where the real pvp is happening, without there control and now reduced dmg due to tenacity as well and no real support combined with the fact a wizard is a S.E.T that's slow easy target for any class.
every class with the exception of clerics who also need some love, have armor pen and good armor pen a wizard has cloth armor that's right... its a guy in pajamas slinging spells that now have control effects that last only a few seconds at best and a second usually and is against other classes which can cut him to ribbons in seconds.
there are 2 Classes that are all but immune to control anyway GWF and GF then there are clerics as hard and harder to kill than tanks thanks to gear and enhancements and there astral shield, and a TR who in pvp is almost always a perma stealth shark in the dark water's... TR who's control works better in pvp than a CW and can stealth away and self heal and or interrupt our encounters thanks to long activation times...
Look here lackyboy every person responding on this thread play pvp and as such have experience, and yes not all have epic gear and play in a pvp guild and have a pure pvp toon.. and thats fine.
to assume they and I Dont know SQUAT...
KID YOUR THE ONE Hanging out the passenger side
Of his best-friend's ride
Trying to holler at me; and tell me how great you are.
you post had nothing to do with the issue being discussed and trashing someone for there opinion on the issue at hand when they never personally attack the person only the opinion is a double whammy of stupidity.
Also it shows your age kid!
You and many other are so wrapped up in winning any match. you will argue to keep the cloth punching bag for what... your leader board score?
If you are so elite why not roll a cw not use any AD resources you may have earned for your enhancements and gear and pvp as a wizard to lvl 60 pug style.
like any new player and see pvp from a new player and a "lack of control wizards" P.O.V you will see what ppl here are saying is true.
There not crying wolf or begging for an edge; there trying to to get just a little more even ground that tenacity took away.
you might start singing a different tune when your the punching bag for change.
Well, I agree you should play towards your strengths. I just very much recommend people really try using it on tab before using something else.
And the thing with missing it is it's still around unless you get bugged out by a daze. Usually I get multiple tries to hit someone with it, although the initial drop is the best because you can easily do the second prone right away before they get up.
I've been killing CWs left and right on my HR and I just met one that is good with shard and she kicked my ***.
I also brought out my CW who is gutted on enchants for my main the HR, just to see if I was remembering correctly, and she did great with it.
Nice post. I'm very impressed. I'm a girl by the way, so you're quite wrong with the man-crush thing. Other than this, I don't see why I would entertain you more. See you in the game, where you will probably remain in spawn and QQ when against my team
Goes to show how experiences differ.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I don't know why few people are pointing out that atm HR control potential is way WAY better than a CW's in most situations. Atm even a survivability-focused HR with the right feats and some luck can more or less "control" something to death, given enough time. Considering Grasping Roots proc rate and the unique property it has that allows it to interrupt just about any action (including dodging), if you want a working template for how a CW should be performing in PvP your best is to simply take a careful look at the current state of the HR class. They're basically how CWs should be in PVP, except perhaps with less single target DPS but more burst/AoE damage potential. And squishier.
This is one of the biggest problems I'm having at the moment. I cannot rely on Repel as a "pusher" anymore. But it is an instant stun that can interrupt lots of rotations and that is enough to throw an Entangling Force immediately afterwards. I'm not happy with it, but you gotta take what you can get. I better be an HR/CW/GWF killer with decent burst than a punching bag that only becomes useful when my team would probably win 4v5 without me.
I wish we had more reliable control. On the other hand, I don't think that there is a better counter to HR than CW (Renegade).
i may not be 60, but i doubt losing chill after i dodge or get interrupted is gonna change much.
So you proposing that 3 classes should be nerfed, so that the Control Wizard (one class) has a better time in PvP? Right on.
quite frankly, chill is just a slow that needs to be stacked 7 times in order to freeze someone (which is the real cc part). for as long as that takes, having a debuff last longer than 1 second in pvp would be appreciated.
Everything got a reason why it goes this way. Since it goes for one year and no one complained about it, i assume that every cw not very fond of "extending chill stacks duration by 1 sec". Maybe the duration is enough for them in pvp and extending it by one sec doesn't matter much. If i remember correctly, there are some feats that help to build chill stacks so i think you should take those feats if you want to maintain high freeze frequency on enemies. I don't play a cw, correct me if i am wrong.
you aren't wrong. it's just annoying that i lose the whole stack for dodging.
I don't know why you guys keep bringing up the renegade spec as a counter to HR. I don't see anything in it besides some extra damage and so-so debuff from magic missle. Maybe I'm missing something?
CWs are by far the easiest prey for my HR if they aren't using shard. I 2v1ed a couple of ability spamming CWs today on my HR.
Without shard, my HR puts out more damage and even more CC than a CW. With it, they're equal. CW prone (shard) is harder to land, but it can prone twice so it's roughly equal to boar rush (and it does way more damage- does more damage than ice knife).
I'm going to shut up about shard though. After fighting a match where 2 CWs kicked our entire teams asses both with shard-on-tab, I'm scared CWs are reading this. The last thing my HR needs is every CW to be using shard on tab.
***
Back to the OP, after playing my CW a little more, I think the main thing that needs to happen is either:
- fix armor penetration so it works on all skills (ice knife is like a joke now)
- make the "CWs ignore a part of tenacity" actually meaningful. I'm not sure anyone has ever felt like a CW's control lasts longer than other classes.
When tenacity was introduced, it mentioned that CWs were going to be exceptional in that they will have inherent penetration of tenacity. So I'm guessing there's code for it already in the game. Whatever it is they need to at least double the effect.
I do propose that some Powers are too effective after more and more playing with and against these Powers, actually just two classes (GWF and TR) seem to have Powers (Unstoppable and permanent Stealth) which are too effective. All classes are part of the whole picture and the whole picture is all that matters for a game and there is no need nor use to feed the ego trolls who just want to feel superior.
All this "buff me! buff my class!" has never brought about any good, it is no balancing is is only another patch for a patchwork rug.
It would seemed to me that more good comes from buffs then nerfs. The nerfs can ruin an entire build, hurt pve or both. The CW fan base has probably put out enough suggestions to pool from to get a feasible buff. I play a gwif, I don't want any more nerf action than what is planned for mod 3. I don't want to see rogues hit either (sorry rogue haters) as I enjoy the competition on the end caps with a strong perma. What I do wanna see is the CWs get tossed a bone, make them competitive in pvp again so I have to worry about them. There is another class that really needs help, as well...
Buff 'em up, let them be capable of what they are supposed to be capable of and THEN see what needs to be toned down elsewhere. Cheers
I played PWI, I saw there and on other games where this buff race leads to and I see no reason for Cryptic to do the same mistakes made so often before. If CW gets buffed then the other classes whine about it and demand a buff too and noone thinks here about the impact of this buff race in PvE and it will hit PvE likewise. Should CWs get so much buffed till Tenacity is evened out? No reason to implement Tenacity and then render it useless with demanded buffs; other classes are also affected by it and GFs whine also about it and want their control power enhanced: where should this lead to? Power Creep is never the answer we should desire.
What you don't understand is the fact that this is a F2P MMO, not a subscription one. What that means is that many people buy extremely expensive stuff - specifically for certain builds. And most of the time with lots of REAL MONEY. One good example was the Tenebrous enchant.
You cannot entice people to spend 1000 USD on a new toon they specifically made for PvP superiority, with all the bells and whistles including new type of Rank 10 enchants and 3 artifacts, then in 1-2 months destroy their investment (which is happening already in this game). There are legal customer protections against this type of thing.
So what I am saying is that if developers are incompetent enough to put truly OP classes and builds out there, then they should get their act together and balance properly BEFORE preview content goes live, where we spend lots of real money.
"Nerfing" our significant investments in our leisure time is not the answer. Buff the suffering class (here the CW) to be on par with the already OP GWF/TR/HR. With buffing, you can ensure that you will keep your customers happy, as their investment is not devalued to the point of uselessness (see again Tenebrous, nobody uses them anymore, and soon the Emblem of Seldarine will be useless too).
Though I understand your frustration about having your 100+ dollar investment become useless, know that you actually don't own anything that you paid for in any online game. Rather it is "leased" to you and can be changed at any time. So what devs have been doing is perfectly legal if not a questionable business model.
Now i wasn't here when Tenes were OP in pvp but it was so obvious that emblem was going to get nerfed given how having an emblem essentially breaks pvp all together. With emblem, GPFs and bilethorn becomes worse than useless because of DoT healing the enemy far more than anyone can damage them. These two weapon enchantments are the BiS weapon enchantments for anyone wanting to take down Pvp tanks that dominate pvp, so tankiness becomes horrendously op with absolutely no counters. Emblem also breaks class abilities that do a DoT, like deep gash, ray of enfeeblement and aimed strike for hrs, which also happens that most of these DoT abilities were also designed to COUNTER high defense/ deflect mitigation builds as well. So you have an artifact that breaks 2 of the best pvp weapon enchants in the game, as well as a number of other classes' abilities, and you thought that emblem was not going to get nerfed? really its your fault for putting money into an item that is so obviously broken that it negated the value of two very popular weapon enchants and a host of class abilities that aren't really optional.
Sorry to tell you that GFs spent much money for certain things which got nerfed afterwards and back there they used the same arguments.
But you know what? If you cannot afford money, why do you do it? If you do, what do you expect? If PWE decides that Neverwinter is not worth running, they can stop this service at any time. So not wise to threaten them.
I did spent much money too on gear which is now useless (I had Tenebrous Enchantments, I had the Stalwart Bulwark set, I have even now more than one set, I had to reset my toon and so on) but after all, your argument is not valid because you talk about builds and builds do not need much money. Good luck next time to make a valid point.
Only thing I agree totally is the problem with Armour Penetration which needs to be fixed, this is overdue.
All propositions here mostly consist of enhancing control power or damage or weaken Tenacity: not very creative. And whilst we are at propositions from players: some GF player dreams of the GF as a future melee version of the CW with much control power
Also your "nerf these classes!" posts are against the rules, so I really don't know why they are still present. I shouldn't even argue with any of you, the moderators should throw your "nerf" posts directly to the trash bin.