Ok so this discussion has moved into what PVP should be. Now the problem is that everyone's idea of PVP fun is a bit different. Here are my views of those types.
The Krueger- wants to kill everyone from hiding, but prefers weaker, new players as fodder.
The Voorheese- wants to kill everyone and be invincible while doing it.
The Tszu- wants to out strategize their opponents.
The Balboa- wants to go toe to toe with anyone, but willing to take a loss if was a good fight
The Urkel- totally clueless and not really sure whats going on at any given time.
The Larusso- wants to train and learn how to fight but is still inexperienced.
Now put yourself in the shoes of the devs. Imagine you have to try to make a pvp system that can work and make all those types of styles happy in the same fight, while keeping queu times "reasonable" to all the players as well? I think the folks over at SETI will succeed first.
Now back to the original topic, if Bane the god of murder has to become visable, then so should a player. If a demon from the abyss has to become visable when he attacks, then so should a player. If a dragon has to become visable when he sneezes on someone then so should a player. These are the laws of of magic in Faerun.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
Ok so this discussion has moved into what PVP should be. Now the problem is that everyone's idea of PVP fun is a bit different. Here are my views of those types.
The Krueger- wants to kill everyone from hiding, but prefers weaker, new players as fodder.
The Voorheese- wants to kill everyone and be invincible while doing it.
The Tszu- wants to out strategize their opponents.
The Balboa- wants to go toe to toe with anyone, but willing to take a loss if was a good fight
The Urkel- totally clueless and not really sure whats going on at any given time.
The Larusso- wants to train and learn how to fight but is still inexperienced.
Now put yourself in the shoes of the devs. Imagine you have to try to make a pvp system that can work and make all those types of styles happy in the same fight, while keeping queu times "reasonable" to all the players as well? I think the folks over at SETI will succeed first.
Now back to the original topic, if Bane the god of murder has to become visable, then so should a player. If a demon from the abyss has to become visable when he attacks, then so should a player. If a dragon has to become visable when he sneezes on someone then so should a player. These are the laws of of magic in Faerun.
I love your descriptions of playstyles Gotta say it pretty much covers them all.
As far as putting ourselves in the Devs position, and making everyone happy.
We can agree that no matter anyone does, in any game..that, that is just going to be an impossibility. You can however get close. We have had countless discussions dating back to days after the game went Live..about how to continue the then new awesome game, into a developing wonderful game for PvE, and PvP players alike.
If you were to stroll through all of them and average them out. The top 3 things were; More Maps, Diminishing Returns for CC abilities/encounters and the ability for premade teams, to Q specifically for other premade teams.
Those 3 things would for the majority eliminate everyones gripes with the game at that time.
Instead of giving us those 3 simple things, they came up with the disaster that is PvP now. A new stat that follows no logic, like the rest of the math involved in this game, a giant nerf bat to countless class's abilities and feats and over-all damage, negated healing effects..and NO new maps. Lets not even talk about Mod 3 though please its just sitting in beta waiting to suck.
I spose everyone has the right to ask me why the hell I'm even posting on the forums anymore if I dislike it so much. Your right, this will be my last post in the forums, I've done my diligence expressing opinions and testing when I was able and to no avail.
I'll be playing Elder Scrolls Online as a hawt little sexy pants Sorc named Alysin Chains. Hit me up dudes, gl with Neverwinter!
The Krueger- wants to kill everyone from hiding, but prefers weaker, new players as fodder.
The Urkel- totally clueless and not really sure whats going on at any given time.
The Larusso- wants to train and learn how to fight but is still inexperienced.
Single queue in low/medium rating, happens everywhere
Your reference to Bane attacking out of Stealth is not the original topic and completely irrelevant and not everything in this game is cannon.
And just to dispute your claims there is a build in 4th edition of dnd that is effectively able to maintain stealth permanently in every single encounter. I am pretty sure its called cunning sneak.
As for someone's idea of making a rogue visible to the person they attacked that just means the rogue will die. Look at it this way.
- start off in stealth
- throw a dagger at some one. I am now visible to them
- I now have to pop ITC or i get CC'd or knocked prone
- throw a few more daggers
- get perma proned or CC'd
- GG
If they did this they would have to give us back our burst damage but i doubt that would happen since they just took it away.
Your reference to Bane attacking out of Stealth is not the original topic and completely irrelevant and not everything in this game is cannon.
Title of thread....Perma Stealth Feedback Discussion. As my stance as posted previously has been that if you attack it should knock you out of perma stealth, this comment was completely relevant. As for everything not being cannon, ok so be it, but that would then be like saying that Drizzit, is actually a wood elf who worships Lloth. So completely backwards that its ridiculous.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
Truckula: Yes saying Drizzt is a wood elf makes no sense, but you didn't dispute the fact that in the newest current ruleset for the PNP game (4th Edition) there is a viable build for Rogues that does infact have perma stealth. If I remember the guide for it there is something like 8-9 monsters in the entire set of manuals that have a passive perception high enough to see them. As long as I dont roll a 1 on my attack i can keep making stealth rolls and stay invisible.
and Iuliandrei I definately see a problem with being perma CC'd or knocked prone. Once our ITC is used we have absolutely no defenses left. All of our burst damage is gone so what is left. All that TR's would end up doing is being the "Support" class that all the CW's here are complaining that they are. Basically it leaves us going back to waiting until someone is 90% dead and than trying to hit with Lashing Blade and hope they dont dodge.
Sorry but you're wrong. Nerf is FAR from the solution for a class that cant do any good in pve and that have to run away in pvp as soon as someone see them... If something have to be done is a complete class rework to make it balanced in pvp and in pve.
CWs are even squishier and we don't have ITC 1/3 of the time negating CC and deflecting all attacks, and we don't have the ability to re-enter stealth or have stealth to begin with.
Plenty of rogues get away when they botch their stealth rotations and are actually targetable.
Rogues have defenses. You just might have to actually learn how to use them if stealth was nerfed (it's never going to be totally taken away which is what you're implying).
The main thing rogues are worried about is having to "L2P" like they accuse the rest of us when having to deal with them, without the option of being invisible forever.
if we are actively being attacked we cant enter stealth again. Every hit drains away the meter if we are in stealth and if we are out of stealth any hit stops the meter from regenerating. So yes while you do not have ITC/stealth you have something that we do not have which is actual reliable CC effects.
0
adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
if we are actively being attacked we cant enter stealth again. Every hit drains away the meter if we are in stealth and if we are out of stealth any hit stops the meter from regenerating. So yes while you do not have ITC/stealth you have something that we do not have which is actual reliable CC effects.
If you would be visible to your victim only for a very short moment, you could attack your victim from behind so he must have to turn to target you in which time you might again go invisible when you stop your attacks. As a compensation changes could be that 1. you stay invisible even at very close range and 2. you have more burst damage (but not too much so that extreme spikes are avoided) OR you get some nasty poison damages.
Another option is to make attacks in stealth less effective, but personally I find the first options more appealing.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Truckula: Yes saying Drizzt is a wood elf makes no sense, but you didn't dispute the fact that in the newest current ruleset for the PNP game (4th Edition) there is a viable build for Rogues that does infact have perma stealth. If I remember the guide for it there is something like 8-9 monsters in the entire set of manuals that have a passive perception high enough to see them. As long as I dont roll a 1 on my attack i can keep making stealth rolls and stay invisible.
I can neither confirm nor deny this assertion, as I pointed out back on page ten, I have never played the actual PNP game. I am taking my lore from the books of which I and a lot of my friends love. Although in the most current book cycle for Drizzit, which includes "Neverwinter" with tag, the prelude to the MMO game, the laws of invisibility are repeated in which someone attacks and loses invisibility due to the laws of magic.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
Sorry but you're wrong. Nerf is FAR from the solution for a class that cant do any good in pve and that have to run away in pvp as soon as someone see them... If something have to be done is a complete class rework to make it balanced in pvp and in pve.
They could easily nerf TR's damage in PVP and keep or even buff its PVE single target damage. Or nerf the skills most-used in PVP and nerf some PVE-centered skills.
A lot of things can be done based on how creative cryptic wants to be.
Also, you run away from any battles in PVP? You obviously don't play at a high level. Go to twitch and watch the top guilds and watch how real TRs control nodes against any class, even GWF in some cases
if we are actively being attacked we cant enter stealth again. Every hit drains away the meter if we are in stealth and if we are out of stealth any hit stops the meter from regenerating. So yes while you do not have ITC/stealth you have something that we do not have which is actual reliable CC effects.
Reliable CC, huh? One would think so since it is part of our classes name after all. We have great CC in PVE- In PVP, not so much.
1. CW CC was nerfed hard. What should be only a 10% or so reduction with tenacity and CWs ability to penetrate tenacity by a supposed 66%, is in reality working out to be more than 50% or so reduction.
For example, chill strike which should be a 1 second stun is not even usuable as CC in PVP because the duration is nothing more than a stutter. If it was WAI, it should be a .9 second stun and the difference should not even be noticeable. It is noticeable though, so much so it's not worth slotting.
2. Every class (except CWs ironically, and maybe DCs I'm not sure) have a way to negate CC and even get out of it, making it hardly reliable.
3. Our CC usuable in PVP is as follows:
- Entangling Force- What used to be a choke of doom is now thanks to tenacity not much of a bother. It's hard to even pull off a shard combo while this is active because it's so short now.
- Icy Rays- A decent root, no complaints
- Shard- Very difficult to actually hit people with and basically requires CC beforehand. If you nail the combo, it is nice for two prones, but that's nothing special compared to what GWFs/GFs can do.
- Ice Knife- a daily with a prone.
That's 4 CC moves and 1 of them is a daily. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is it. Any other CC like singularity or steal time which are amazingly effective in PVE do not work in PVP because people can easily avoid it.
If anything, I'd say that rogues' CC is more reliable because a CW cannot get out of the silence you guys have (you guys use at least 2 moves on me that silence me, and silence is a form of CC- and yeah it's nuts that you guys even have silence on top of everything else).
If anything, I'd say that rogues' CC is more reliable because a CW cannot get out of the silence you guys have (you guys use at least 2 moves on me that silence me, and silence is a form of CC- and yeah it's nuts that you guys even have silence on top of everything else).
dazing strike is actually very difficult to land, sometimes even from stealth if the target is moving. it's nice when it hits, but it's most reliably used on non-moving targets which may not always be possible or slow moving characters like guardians. pretty much anyone can dodge it by moving back a little instead of actually dodging (the aoe is that small). i have heard of a whisperknife build that uses it as part of a stun combo, but not sure how well that paragon does.
smoke bomb is nice for team-play, but it does not help the rogue themselves much since everyone will just walk outside of the aoe stun which prevents us from meleeing them and thus not really doing any damage. it's best for delaying a couple enemies so the rest of the team can quickly snipe someone down.
2. Every class (except CWs ironically, and maybe DCs I'm not sure) have a way to negate CC and even get out of it, making it hardly reliable.
Gf and hr don't have a way to break cc. Yes, they have cc immunity abilities, but they're dailies, and have to already be in effect beforehand(villain's menace, forest ghost). Does MoC not give cc immunity for cw's?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
0
sh4dowrunn3rMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited March 2014
"Stealthed character can't control capture/control nodes and everything is probably fixed." (So if TR + enemy stand on enemy point and TR is stealthed it's enemy point and it's generating points for the enemy.)
Just don't forget to also add huge damage boost so even when TR loses a lot of it's utility in PVP it's still viable and also gets more viable in PVE. In single target damage it should kill competition by a landslide.
I just had 3 perma's deadlock my whole team... Even when we tried to group kill them they just pop the run speed buff and run away, do a big circle and then come back at full health. Something really needs to be done about this. I can't believe that the Devs allow this to continue. There I said my peace but I think we can all agree that this needs to be addressed.
Fact is. If they "fix" stealth, they should and rightly so revisit some of the other nerfs they instituted in order to try and mitigate perma stealth. You guys can't nerf a class into the ground to facilitate one ability, and then also ask that that ability also be nerfed.
My Gf has 2k regen and those little knives they throw, useless, especially when i block most of them. They eventually have to get close. I fear combat rogues much much more than perma's.
Once our ITC is used we have absolutely no defenses left. All of our burst damage is gone so what is left. All that TR's would end up doing is being the "Support" class that all the CW's here are complaining that they are. Basically it leaves us going back to waiting until someone is 90% dead and than trying to hit with Lashing Blade and hope they dont dodge.
Heaven forbid TR's have to use feats and enchants that help them with their defense, deflection and hitpoints instead of just going pure offense.
HAMSTER, level 60 GF, "Bloodthirsty" since Mod 2 Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
Leather armour for the TR has mediocre AC as compared to Gwf,Gf . Buffing deflection may help but hp and defense is not the point or primary focus for a TR. Out of all the classes a TR should be able to do the most damage 1v1. Lashing blade, shocking exc was nerfed so many TR went with permanent stealth build as a last resort. If you take away stealth you break the class. Stealth is the TR best way to combat being squishy.
I have posted about this bug many times but nobody seems to ever listen--maybe it's because it's the only thing keeping us TR from crumbling, and that I could understand we would want to hold on to it. So allow me to lay it out simply:
Permastealth TR are so weak in offense, you couldn't blame them if they do a perma hide rotation. Your problem lies in Perma Bilethorn TR who can use DF (At-will) really well: In my most recent tests last week, Duelist Flurry still procs the poison ticks from Bilethorn 20 times, instead of 10. Duelist Flurry is an At will that hits 10x for very small damage in its third part. Essentially, the poison will tick after 4 seconds (correct) and 8 seconds (bug). It doesn't happen in other TR powers/or other classes. Just Duelist Flurry. Depending on the rank of their Bilethorn Enchantment, that constitutes to up to 1520 unmitigated damage. This damage affects both stealth and your shield meter; and it's not negligible to soft classes like ranger/control wizards. (Don't forget, DF already stacks Bleed.)
Fact is. If they "fix" stealth, they should and rightly so revisit some of the other nerfs they instituted in order to try and mitigate perma stealth. You guys can't nerf a class into the ground to facilitate one ability, and then also ask that that ability also be nerfed.
I have to support what another person has said before. All the previous nerfs to the Rogue class was majorly influenced by the ability of staying in stealth indefinitely. Therefore, everybody reasoned that we didn't deserve burst damage, and took it away.
Impact Shot nerf: 3 charges were not OP, per se...7 Impact Shot chains are! How 7? Enter Stealth->Impact Shot (1), Impact Shot 3 charges (2.3.4), Shadow Strike->Impact Shot (5), recovery stealth->Impact Shot (6), cooldown->Impact Shot (7). I can personally attest to this because for a while I've used that rotation before it was nerfed. And I can spam IS 7 times in 10 seconds, enough to kill any class. THAT was OP.
Lurkers Assault was OP. Why was its damaged nerfed, essentially destroying our dps potential in PvE. Couldn't it have been that the stealth regen from this bonus was the unnecessary OP?
Tenacity Critical damage resistance -> if we have this, then what was the point of all the dps nerfs we've had in the last oh-so-many times? Every redundant nerf can't be sugarcoated as "rebalancing" if all you keep doing is reduce something's usefulness because the last time wasn't enough.
I should say this:
I am totally on the Stealth nerf bondwagon here; but if you do that, think about giving us back our original role -- being single target damage dealers. Hey, why not even buff Blitz target cap as a compromise? Give us something in PvE, since you obviously hate us in PvP already.
So this is my challenge to everyone:
Fine, nerf stealth, like you did most everything the TR have. Give us something in return. I'd personally settle for Blitz (remove the target cap) and Wicked Reminder (increase base damage) <- these are our PvE skills. If you nerf stealth, I probably won't do much PvP anymore. At least put me somewhere I can be useful. PvE would be a good start.
I love how you all cry about stealth. Lets look at it this way. ask the gf to not use his shield ask the cw to not use ice. Ask the hr not to use his bow. Seriously what else are we suppose to do. they ****ed up this class so bad it a mess. If they would use d n d rules and not mess with **** they have no clue on the game would have a better community and not so much *****ing. We have no pickpocket no back stab. Smoke bomb useless. They pretty much have killed the class and most will be moving on from this game.
Really devs gets your heads out of cryptics *** and do something right.
I love how you all cry about stealth. Lets look at it this way. ask the gf to not use his shield ask the cw to not use ice. Ask the hr not to use his bow. Seriously what else are we suppose to do. they ****ed up this class so bad it a mess. If they would use d n d rules and not mess with **** they have no clue on the game would have a better community and not so much *****ing. We have no pickpocket no back stab. Smoke bomb useless. They pretty much have killed the class and most will be moving on from this game.
Really devs gets your heads out of cryptics *** and do something right.
did u by accident saw date of last post?:rolleyes:
Here's my idea Dev's put a check box on the pvp Q so if you don't want to pvp with rouges you just check it simple no permas for you in pvp, I for one would keep this box checked, as its no fun being killed by an invisible foe who if you do find can be immune to dmg and then poof there invis again.
They could easily nerf TR's damage in PVP and keep or even buff its PVE single target damage. Or nerf the skills most-used in PVP and nerf some PVE-centered skills.
A lot of things can be done based on how creative cryptic wants to be.
Also, you run away from any battles in PVP? You obviously don't play at a high level. Go to twitch and watch the top guilds and watch how real TRs control nodes against any class, even GWF in some cases
1.Rogue had to much nerfs, so now rogue is useless class and not wanted in dungeons, hated in PVP for permas only.
2.You can't escape, GWF can catch you very fast.
3. Everyone can break stealth even with artifacts, i think cryptic must be creative and fix rogue class.
1.Rogue had to much nerfs, so now rogue is useless class and not wanted in dungeons, hated in PVP for permas only.
2.You can't escape, GWF can catch you very fast.
3. Everyone can break stealth even with artifacts, i think cryptic must be creative and fix rogue class.
LOL yeah cause were totally going to waste the active artifact slot to deal with one class ONCE EVERY 3 MIN. Assuming you even have the artifact. That said it's going to happen you can complain all you want but it will not make a difference enjoy at wills draining 15% of stealth meter per hit
And yes I am aware this thread is a necro I am responding to the new posts mostly.
May the RNG Gods smile on you today!
Adorable Temptress - 23.4k Temptation SW
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
ask a wizard not to use magic... ask a gf to throw away their shields.. ask a gwf to not use their swords... ask a cleric not to heal in pvp or pve.. then you can ask a tr not to stealth in combat ...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Comments
The Krueger- wants to kill everyone from hiding, but prefers weaker, new players as fodder.
The Voorheese- wants to kill everyone and be invincible while doing it.
The Tszu- wants to out strategize their opponents.
The Balboa- wants to go toe to toe with anyone, but willing to take a loss if was a good fight
The Urkel- totally clueless and not really sure whats going on at any given time.
The Larusso- wants to train and learn how to fight but is still inexperienced.
Now put yourself in the shoes of the devs. Imagine you have to try to make a pvp system that can work and make all those types of styles happy in the same fight, while keeping queu times "reasonable" to all the players as well? I think the folks over at SETI will succeed first.
Now back to the original topic, if Bane the god of murder has to become visable, then so should a player. If a demon from the abyss has to become visable when he attacks, then so should a player. If a dragon has to become visable when he sneezes on someone then so should a player. These are the laws of of magic in Faerun.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
I love your descriptions of playstyles
As far as putting ourselves in the Devs position, and making everyone happy.
We can agree that no matter anyone does, in any game..that, that is just going to be an impossibility. You can however get close. We have had countless discussions dating back to days after the game went Live..about how to continue the then new awesome game, into a developing wonderful game for PvE, and PvP players alike.
If you were to stroll through all of them and average them out. The top 3 things were; More Maps, Diminishing Returns for CC abilities/encounters and the ability for premade teams, to Q specifically for other premade teams.
Those 3 things would for the majority eliminate everyones gripes with the game at that time.
Instead of giving us those 3 simple things, they came up with the disaster that is PvP now. A new stat that follows no logic, like the rest of the math involved in this game, a giant nerf bat to countless class's abilities and feats and over-all damage, negated healing effects..and NO new maps. Lets not even talk about Mod 3 though please its just sitting in beta waiting to suck.
I spose everyone has the right to ask me why the hell I'm even posting on the forums anymore if I dislike it so much. Your right, this will be my last post in the forums, I've done my diligence expressing opinions and testing when I was able and to no avail.
I'll be playing Elder Scrolls Online as a hawt little sexy pants Sorc named Alysin Chains. Hit me up dudes, gl with Neverwinter!
Single queue in low/medium rating, happens everywhere
Competitive pvp (can be premades here)
Competitive pvp guys that come in solo que.
See .. not so hard as it is done in many other games!
And just to dispute your claims there is a build in 4th edition of dnd that is effectively able to maintain stealth permanently in every single encounter. I am pretty sure its called cunning sneak.
As for someone's idea of making a rogue visible to the person they attacked that just means the rogue will die. Look at it this way.
- start off in stealth
- throw a dagger at some one. I am now visible to them
- I now have to pop ITC or i get CC'd or knocked prone
- throw a few more daggers
- get perma proned or CC'd
- GG
If they did this they would have to give us back our burst damage but i doubt that would happen since they just took it away.
So you don't see this as a problem? you're putting the cart in front of the horse man
Title of thread....Perma Stealth Feedback Discussion. As my stance as posted previously has been that if you attack it should knock you out of perma stealth, this comment was completely relevant. As for everything not being cannon, ok so be it, but that would then be like saying that Drizzit, is actually a wood elf who worships Lloth. So completely backwards that its ridiculous.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
and Iuliandrei I definately see a problem with being perma CC'd or knocked prone. Once our ITC is used we have absolutely no defenses left. All of our burst damage is gone so what is left. All that TR's would end up doing is being the "Support" class that all the CW's here are complaining that they are. Basically it leaves us going back to waiting until someone is 90% dead and than trying to hit with Lashing Blade and hope they dont dodge.
CWs are even squishier and we don't have ITC 1/3 of the time negating CC and deflecting all attacks, and we don't have the ability to re-enter stealth or have stealth to begin with.
Plenty of rogues get away when they botch their stealth rotations and are actually targetable.
Rogues have defenses. You just might have to actually learn how to use them if stealth was nerfed (it's never going to be totally taken away which is what you're implying).
The main thing rogues are worried about is having to "L2P" like they accuse the rest of us when having to deal with them, without the option of being invisible forever.
If you would be visible to your victim only for a very short moment, you could attack your victim from behind so he must have to turn to target you in which time you might again go invisible when you stop your attacks. As a compensation changes could be that 1. you stay invisible even at very close range and 2. you have more burst damage (but not too much so that extreme spikes are avoided) OR you get some nasty poison damages.
Another option is to make attacks in stealth less effective, but personally I find the first options more appealing.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
I can neither confirm nor deny this assertion, as I pointed out back on page ten, I have never played the actual PNP game. I am taking my lore from the books of which I and a lot of my friends love. Although in the most current book cycle for Drizzit, which includes "Neverwinter" with tag, the prelude to the MMO game, the laws of invisibility are repeated in which someone attacks and loses invisibility due to the laws of magic.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
Do tell, I want to know who it is.
They could easily nerf TR's damage in PVP and keep or even buff its PVE single target damage. Or nerf the skills most-used in PVP and nerf some PVE-centered skills.
A lot of things can be done based on how creative cryptic wants to be.
Also, you run away from any battles in PVP? You obviously don't play at a high level. Go to twitch and watch the top guilds and watch how real TRs control nodes against any class, even GWF in some cases
Reliable CC, huh? One would think so since it is part of our classes name after all. We have great CC in PVE- In PVP, not so much.
1. CW CC was nerfed hard. What should be only a 10% or so reduction with tenacity and CWs ability to penetrate tenacity by a supposed 66%, is in reality working out to be more than 50% or so reduction.
For example, chill strike which should be a 1 second stun is not even usuable as CC in PVP because the duration is nothing more than a stutter. If it was WAI, it should be a .9 second stun and the difference should not even be noticeable. It is noticeable though, so much so it's not worth slotting.
2. Every class (except CWs ironically, and maybe DCs I'm not sure) have a way to negate CC and even get out of it, making it hardly reliable.
3. Our CC usuable in PVP is as follows:
- Entangling Force- What used to be a choke of doom is now thanks to tenacity not much of a bother. It's hard to even pull off a shard combo while this is active because it's so short now.
- Icy Rays- A decent root, no complaints
- Shard- Very difficult to actually hit people with and basically requires CC beforehand. If you nail the combo, it is nice for two prones, but that's nothing special compared to what GWFs/GFs can do.
- Ice Knife- a daily with a prone.
That's 4 CC moves and 1 of them is a daily. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is it. Any other CC like singularity or steal time which are amazingly effective in PVE do not work in PVP because people can easily avoid it.
If anything, I'd say that rogues' CC is more reliable because a CW cannot get out of the silence you guys have (you guys use at least 2 moves on me that silence me, and silence is a form of CC- and yeah it's nuts that you guys even have silence on top of everything else).
dazing strike is actually very difficult to land, sometimes even from stealth if the target is moving. it's nice when it hits, but it's most reliably used on non-moving targets which may not always be possible or slow moving characters like guardians. pretty much anyone can dodge it by moving back a little instead of actually dodging (the aoe is that small). i have heard of a whisperknife build that uses it as part of a stun combo, but not sure how well that paragon does.
smoke bomb is nice for team-play, but it does not help the rogue themselves much since everyone will just walk outside of the aoe stun which prevents us from meleeing them and thus not really doing any damage. it's best for delaying a couple enemies so the rest of the team can quickly snipe someone down.
Gf and hr don't have a way to break cc. Yes, they have cc immunity abilities, but they're dailies, and have to already be in effect beforehand(villain's menace, forest ghost). Does MoC not give cc immunity for cw's?
Just don't forget to also add huge damage boost so even when TR loses a lot of it's utility in PVP it's still viable and also gets more viable in PVE. In single target damage it should kill competition by a landslide.
My Gf has 2k regen and those little knives they throw, useless, especially when i block most of them. They eventually have to get close. I fear combat rogues much much more than perma's.
Heaven forbid TR's have to use feats and enchants that help them with their defense, deflection and hitpoints instead of just going pure offense.
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
Permastealth TR are so weak in offense, you couldn't blame them if they do a perma hide rotation. Your problem lies in Perma Bilethorn TR who can use DF (At-will) really well: In my most recent tests last week, Duelist Flurry still procs the poison ticks from Bilethorn 20 times, instead of 10. Duelist Flurry is an At will that hits 10x for very small damage in its third part. Essentially, the poison will tick after 4 seconds (correct) and 8 seconds (bug). It doesn't happen in other TR powers/or other classes. Just Duelist Flurry. Depending on the rank of their Bilethorn Enchantment, that constitutes to up to 1520 unmitigated damage. This damage affects both stealth and your shield meter; and it's not negligible to soft classes like ranger/control wizards. (Don't forget, DF already stacks Bleed.)
I have to support what another person has said before. All the previous nerfs to the Rogue class was majorly influenced by the ability of staying in stealth indefinitely. Therefore, everybody reasoned that we didn't deserve burst damage, and took it away.
Impact Shot nerf: 3 charges were not OP, per se...7 Impact Shot chains are! How 7? Enter Stealth->Impact Shot (1), Impact Shot 3 charges (2.3.4), Shadow Strike->Impact Shot (5), recovery stealth->Impact Shot (6), cooldown->Impact Shot (7). I can personally attest to this because for a while I've used that rotation before it was nerfed. And I can spam IS 7 times in 10 seconds, enough to kill any class. THAT was OP.
Lurkers Assault was OP. Why was its damaged nerfed, essentially destroying our dps potential in PvE. Couldn't it have been that the stealth regen from this bonus was the unnecessary OP?
Tenacity Critical damage resistance -> if we have this, then what was the point of all the dps nerfs we've had in the last oh-so-many times? Every redundant nerf can't be sugarcoated as "rebalancing" if all you keep doing is reduce something's usefulness because the last time wasn't enough.
I should say this:
I am totally on the Stealth nerf bondwagon here; but if you do that, think about giving us back our original role -- being single target damage dealers. Hey, why not even buff Blitz target cap as a compromise? Give us something in PvE, since you obviously hate us in PvP already.
So this is my challenge to everyone:
Fine, nerf stealth, like you did most everything the TR have. Give us something in return. I'd personally settle for Blitz (remove the target cap) and Wicked Reminder (increase base damage) <- these are our PvE skills. If you nerf stealth, I probably won't do much PvP anymore. At least put me somewhere I can be useful. PvE would be a good start.
Really devs gets your heads out of cryptics *** and do something right.
were you purposely looking for complaints about perma stealth?
get with the times barthan
1.Rogue had to much nerfs, so now rogue is useless class and not wanted in dungeons, hated in PVP for permas only.
2.You can't escape, GWF can catch you very fast.
3. Everyone can break stealth even with artifacts, i think cryptic must be creative and fix rogue class.
LOL yeah cause were totally going to waste the active artifact slot to deal with one class ONCE EVERY 3 MIN. Assuming you even have the artifact. That said it's going to happen you can complain all you want but it will not make a difference enjoy at wills draining 15% of stealth meter per hit
And yes I am aware this thread is a necro I am responding to the new posts mostly.
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's