TR's are the natural bane of CW's as we were developed to bypass your defenses which are your range, DPS and CC. Likewise, HR's and GWF's are our natural predators. An equally skilled and geared TR vs. an equally skilled HR/GWF duels, the latter would come out victorious regardless of what build the TR uses. PVP works in an RPS manner where each class has their own natural counter. The only way to beat your natural counter is to make up for it in SKILL and INTELLIGENCE. If those remain equal in the 1 vs. 1, the natural predator will remain victorious over the prey.
And that is why you'll rarely see a CW winning in 1 vs. 1's in those Twitch/YouTube channels you love to tune in to, because most of the factors there are equal i.e, gear and player skill. TR's will dominate CW's, CW's will dominate GF's/DC's, GWF's/HR's will dominate TR's. It's a cycle, the intended RPS setup the developers imposed upon PVP to make sure that one class will always have some sort of counter and would ensure that people do not forget the most important thing in PVP; teamwork. When a TR is in your base node and you as a CW is facing up to him, in a premade match you do not face that TR by yourself; you send an HR or GWF to take care of the guy. That's how this game works. Not this silly 1 vs 1 node battle meta you are talking about. I'm not even sure where you picked that up, but the meta in PVP has always been CC-centered. The class that can CC-lock you first tends to be victorious. THAT is the meta.
Problem is that at the highest levels...
- CW only dominate DCs (read, CW can kill DC after a 5-10 minute battle, in real match DC would get support way before they're dead)
- CW usually loses EACH other 1vs1, including with great GFs
- CW is relegated to support class because even if they are uberskilled&geared, it's not reliable to let them contest or try to kill mostly anything alone, too risky
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as PotB if you need to touch point
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as Shocking Execution critting you for dead from half HP (this is in the context where ALL other burst damage was killed by Tenacity...)
- 1vs1s in real premades are important, it's good if you can overpower the guy they send to contest with you reliably, although of course rotations and helping is just as important
Most importantly:
"Natural Predator" and "RPS" are pretty bad systems. They allow certain classes to play the hero and feel awesome, and others to play the cowardly support and die each time an adversary with similar skill and gear catches them.
It's bad to have encounter results based on class. The result should be solely determined by player skill, experience and gear.
i would realy like that cws get a huge buff so they can be on same lvl as tr,gwf,good hr.
they sure deseve it after carrying us all in pve.its time they get something back moochers.
i would realy like that cws get a huge buff so they can be on same lvl as tr,gwf,good hr.
they sure deseve it after carrying us all in pve.its time they get something back moochers.
ayn rand
lol wishful thinking, what might happen is actually the opposite, NERF! but if you meant buff on control/survivability sure, but dps? hell no!
Its always something with the majority population of PvP.
So much crying, every single day...every single patch, about nearly every single class at 1 point and time.
Cryptic has proven they haven't a clue how PvP should be done, or how class's should be balanced, by way of getting completely and utterly destroyed by my guild in a premade vs the dev team. So they looked to the mass's. Unfortunately the mass's are generally low skilled, or new players, or players that "think" they have skill and give all sorts of ridiculous feedback. Generally consisting of nerf this, now lets nerf that.
The end game players wanted minor changes, because they knew the system was well built, it just needed a fiew tweaks. More maps, and a way to Q specifically for premade matches, is all we asked for.
But because of the overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums, they gave us this incredibly jacked up beyond all recognition matchmaking system, a ridiculous Tenacity stat that I highly doubt follows any normal logic of actual math, and the nerf bat on countless class's and abilities.
You can thank yourself, for ruining what was once a good PvP experience..all because you(in general), were too lazy to learn about other class's mechanics and abilities, and gear yourself properly before entering PvP.
5 more Days and 1/3 of the already dwindling population will be gone, all thanks to you
I never cried for a nerf for any class. Instead, I would rather learn ways to defeat them. With that said, EVERY CLASS HAS THE ABILITY TO KILL ANOTHER. (If you yourself can adapt and learn how to not just play but own your character)
I'll bite. Show me a youtube or twitch link of any top CW in the world beating one of the top perma-TR in 1vs1 node battles.
I would like to see it so I can "adapt and learn how to not just play but own my character".
Or better yet, teach me. I'm giving you a chance to backup your statements.
0
adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The end game players wanted minor changes, because they knew the system was well built, it just needed a fiew tweaks. More maps, and a way to Q specifically for premade matches, is all we asked for.
The topic is about the permanent aspect of stealth builds. I find it a rather minor yet important change. And who is 'we'? So you consider youself an end game player? I consider myself that too (a rather average one when it comes to gear comparison, but is gear what defines for you an 'end-game' player?).
But because of the overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums, they gave us this incredibly jacked up beyond all recognition matchmaking system, a ridiculous Tenacity stat that I highly doubt follows any normal logic of actual math, and the nerf bat on countless class's and abilities.
By the contrary. That 'oceaon of tears' is in fact honest feedback from players. Let one be more experienced that the other, that is of second importance: Balance is something which requires great numbers and statistics to test. If the majority of players are not happy with a given situation it is more likely they will give a certain feedback towards that particular mismatch. It is up to the dev's to decide if these feedbacks are solid enough to make a change.
You can thank yourself, for ruining what was once a good PvP experience..all because you(in general), were too lazy to learn about other class's mechanics and abilities, and gear yourself properly before entering PvP.
I think it is a general misconception to assume that someone providing feedback on the forums is automatically someone with no clue about PvP or not geared enough. Probably most newcomers dont even use the forum. And instead of complaining about 'endless QQing' you could have given solid arguments against certain nerfes done in the past. No idea if you did, but apparently these arguments where not solid enough.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
If you want to CC the TR in Stealth, make the effort to do so. Slot in whatever skill or artifact you deem necessary, as long as you win.
You want me to slot in an artifact with a 3 minute cooldown that will most likely fail anyway? So now I've wasted my artifact slot on a lantern while the TR has emblem or waters for even more healing?
I would like to ask you for tips and tricks on how to deal with perma-stealth TRs.
But as a CW, what exactly are you doing in a node with your natural predator? That in itself is unintelligent unless you are confident that you are better skilled than the TR. It's clearly an L2P issue when you 1 vs. 1 a rogue you're not confident of winning against.
Nodes 1 and 3 have either a perma-TR or a GWF there. So you are saying CWs should only stick to 2 because he dies to either of them? You realize the point of the game is to capture and hold nodes right? So now as a CW, I 100% have to call for help. I've handicapped my team now since I only go to 2 and I my role has been reduced to rotation DPS (which means making my team 2vs1 that annoying permastealth hanging out on our node thus giving them advantage). I'm pretty much a DC except I die quicker and cannot waste the TR or GWF's time as much.
I wouldn't call that a L2P issue, I'd call that a class imbalance issue.
By the way, some people arguing CWs should never beat TRs, some people are arguing every class has the ability to beat the other class if you think hard enough. Which is it?
I'm a semi perma TR and I have been killed by CWs lots of times. XD
Also I'm getting a bit tired of people claiming that everyone will leave the game because of some changes they didn't like. I haven't seen any less people in game, and I'm sure that like with each new content, more players will come back with module 3.
They have nerfed us countless times, still there are lots of TR's around.
I have no trouble giving up perma stealth IF and only IF they give us more tools to defend outselves like more stuns, CC's, poisons, etc. Because right now, a TR without stealth is as good as dead.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I get in a match against people with vorpals and soulforge a whole lot, and I don't even have 10kGS
Good CWs can kill bad or ungeared TRs ALL DAY EVERYDAY. Not even a fair fight by all means. I fought some lower GS permas yesterday they had to team up two of them to kill my CW and even then they still ran for pots or died in the process. Such fights are not even worth mentioning though. Give a decent permaTR R8s and perfects, boons and epic artifacts and he will be a challenge even to a r10s BiS CW.
Problem arise when both the TR and the CW are relatively experienced and similarly geared&skilled.
- CW only dominate DCs (read, CW can kill DC after a 5-10 minute battle, in real match DC would get support way before they're dead)
- CW usually loses EACH other 1vs1, including with great GFs
- CW is relegated to support class because even if they are uberskilled&geared, it's not reliable to let them contest or try to kill mostly anything alone, too risky
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as PotB if you need to touch point
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as Shocking Execution critting you for dead from half HP (this is in the context where ALL other burst damage was killed by Tenacity...)
- 1vs1s in real premades are important, it's good if you can overpower the guy they send to contest with you reliably, although of course rotations and helping is just as important
Most importantly:
"Natural Predator" and "RPS" are pretty bad systems. They allow certain classes to play the hero and feel awesome, and others to play the cowardly support and die each time an adversary with similar skill and gear catches them.
It's bad to have encounter results based on class. The result should be solely determined by player skill, experience and gear.
Hey, Pers. Thanks for offering your 2 cents as a high-end PVP-er. Always a welcome break from all the non-factual arguments we've been having so far. And I actually agree with some of your points. I particularly dislike the PoB/SS/ITC play style myself and I can never bring myself to play like so, even if the meta demands it. PoB/SS/ITC is not exactly the most engaging rotation in the game, but that's pretty much what us TR's have been relegated to. It's currently the one most optimal rotation for PVP TR's.
People complained about Impact Shot when clearly Tenacity will be fixing it, but the nerf still pushed through. Impact Shot was the one skill TR's held onto from the previous meta and its been gimped heavily, making it unusable with this current meta. Nowadays, Lashing Blade and PoB are the only remaining viable damage encounters for PVP TR's. We've been reduced to having only 2 damage encounters to choose from. And of course, the one that hits for sure, which is PoB, will most likely be chosen by the majority.
As for the topic of 1 vs. 1's and Natural Predators, you have a point. But then again, although it may be a bad system, what we can all say for sure is that this is what PVP is right now. We'd all love to have PVP that is solely based on skill alone. But NW PVP is simply not like that, and I'm not sure if the devs are even planning to change this RPS + CC meta. It's already there. Us TR's contend with this meta using Stealth, our class mechanic and overall identity, as we have zero effective CC's for PVP. Not much skill is involved when the first person to land the CC to start the CC-lock wins. It's a meta dictated by CC and chain prones, where taking away the other person's ability to react is what wins battles.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
None taken, but pvp isn't just high end pvp, all levels matter, and I'm sure that some of the CWs that have killed me are not high GS players.
Do you run a PvP build with sizeable defenses, Tenacity and HP? Did you built your TR with high Recovery and so on? You know that permas mostly rely on their Perfect Biles to actually kill stuff?
What I'm trying to say is that some builds shine at certain levels of gear. If you think same GS CWs are challenging, maybe you're missing on some specific stuff that your class does to counter them Such as staying on stealth or immune for 99% of the time.
Like I said, I'm a SEMI perma, and I don't have any high level enchants, just r 5-6s and a lesser bile. that's all.
Of course the true perma stealth build requires for high end enchants, but true perma isn't my style. I usually go for a much more combat oriented playstyle in pvp.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hey, Pers. Thanks for offering your 2 cents as a high-end PVP-er. Always a welcome break from all the non-factual arguments we've been having so far. And I actually agree with some of your points. I particularly dislike the PoB/SS/ITC play style myself and I can never bring myself to play like so, even if the meta demands it. PoB/SS/ITC is not exactly the most engaging rotation in the game, but that's pretty much what us TR's have been relegated to. It's currently the one most optimal rotation for PVP TR's.
People complained about Impact Shot when clearly Tenacity will be fixing it, but the nerf still pushed through. Impact Shot was the one skill TR's held onto from the previous meta and its been gimped heavily, making it unusable with this current meta. Nowadays, Lashing Blade and PoB are the only remaining viable damage encounters for PVP TR's. We've been reduced to having only 2 damage encounters to choose from. And of course, the one that hits for sure, which is PoB, will most likely be chosen by the majority.
As for the topic of 1 vs. 1's and Natural Predators, you have a point. But then again, although it may be a bad system, what we can all say for sure is that this is what PVP is right now. We'd all love to have PVP that is solely based on skill alone. But NW PVP is simply not like that, and I'm not sure if the devs are even planning to change this RPS + CC meta. It's already there. Us TR's contend with this meta using Stealth, our class mechanic and overall identity, as we have zero effective CC's for PVP. Not much skill is involved when the first person to land the CC to start the CC-lock wins. It's a meta dictated by CC and chain prones, where taking away the other person's ability to react is what wins battles.
Yeah I completely agree. I would take Impact Shots over PotB any day. I know for a fact many TRs hate it, as they complained having to use it. It's a shame the consecutive nerfs resulted in this and it's all a consequence of the developers not communicating enough with the PvP community, all classes, and listening mostly to the people that went in unprepared and got destroyed as a consequence.
As for the skill-based system we don't have it's all a theoretical discussion. I am just mentioning it would be better, I have no hopes of ever seeing it implemented. I have long lost desires and hope for my char to be anything but support and I'm content playing it as such. Sometimes I get lucky and even kill my natural predators solo, but yeah, I'd call those "extraordinary circumstances" and not try to set up myself for them.
As for the prone CC chains, I thank heavens they still exists in a limited form, even as my CW dies a lot from them. Locking up people to kill them faster is what makes the game more dynamic. If not for prones, geared people from classes such as GWF would take AGES to kill.
So in conclusion, better leave it as it is I suppose, cause I fear that attempts at fixing things will make the game even worse
How about making TR visible when they attack from stealth without spending stealth bar? I mean, you keep being stealthed, but when you're starting to attack, you become half visible (like when you see TR sometimes when moving close to them).
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Its always something with the majority population of PvP.
So much crying, every single day...every single patch, about nearly every single class at 1 point and time.
Cryptic has proven they haven't a clue how PvP should be done, or how class's should be balanced, by way of getting completely and utterly destroyed by my guild in a premade vs the dev team. So they looked to the mass's. Unfortunately the mass's are generally low skilled, or new players, or players that "think" they have skill and give all sorts of ridiculous feedback. Generally consisting of nerf this, now lets nerf that.
The end game players wanted minor changes, because they knew the system was well built, it just needed a fiew tweaks. More maps, and a way to Q specifically for premade matches, is all we asked for.
But because of the overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums, they gave us this incredibly jacked up beyond all recognition matchmaking system, a ridiculous Tenacity stat that I highly doubt follows any normal logic of actual math, and the nerf bat on countless class's and abilities.
You can thank yourself, for ruining what was once a good PvP experience..all because you(in general), were too lazy to learn about other class's mechanics and abilities, and gear yourself properly before entering PvP.
5 more Days and 1/3 of the already dwindling population will be gone, all thanks to you
Cheers!
Agreed with your entire post, it is a fair assessment of the actual situation, a large part of the top tier pvper's will move on to other games it is inevitable .
Elo is broken beyond repair, (Q times, uneven matchmaking some would even say <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> matchmaking) and even if they fixed it there is not enough player base for it to work as they intend it to, tenacity has improved nothing, pugs still get stomped, good premades still roll on everyone, games last way to long, seen some premades/inhouses last well over an hour, some guilds have even passed the 2 hour mark just to reach 1000 pts, can anyone here really say things are better now than they were before the pvp patch (needed class adjustments aside)?
I do think things are better now. Even though sometimes I still get matched against much more powerful teams, many times I get matched against people of my level. Before the patch that hardly ever happened.
I think current PvP GWF vs PvP TR is pretty much what persephone said PvP should be.
The TR has the tools to evade and deal damage, going ITC, tanking, then dodge roll immune and fade into stealth, dodge roll again to evade more, stay stealthed and throw knives to soften the opponents, get out of shadows and go ITC again exc...
Requires gear to deal enough damage but also skill to time correctly the transitions from ITC immunity, to dodge roll immunity, and then evade with stealth trying to not be predictable. And SE as a finishing move (may be if it got less damage. Right now, more than a "finishing" move, it's a "free kill". Just need to take the opponent to 50% HP in the worst case).
The GWF, on the other hand, have it's prones, its mobility and tankyness/ unstoppable. Tankyness and unstoppable allow the GWF to endure the damage while he tries to find a opening to catch the TR. Can either try to land a frontline/ roar in the small Windows during transitions from one immunity to the other (from ITC to dodge roll and from one dodge roll to the other), or use experience and mobility to locate and spot the stealthed TR when fighting on a point. If he manage to catch the TR, he can land his prone chain combo. Which is fair.
I think pretty much the same should apply for every class vs GWFs/ GFs.
Ability to evade vs ability to catch the opponent.
For CWs it should be the ability to keep the enemy at a distance and evade if the enemy get in range. May be giving the yet a bit more CC in PvP and add few simple defensive moves. Could be nice if with one tap they could spawn illusions around them that can intercept the damage and mess up the enemy aim, and with a double tap they could teleport the way they do now. Then they could mix it to defend against stealthed TRs or melee fighters, or ranged fighters. Thinking about it, if the CW is not predictable, he can spawn illusions around him (a small crowd that surround the CW, similar to when a DC moves in and out from the brawl to mess your aim. Illusions may have a "target priority", redirecting your aim on them if you previously locked on the CW. This way, you've to aim manually), similar to TRs shadow clones, or he can just teleport. Basically, it's a tool to tank once the enemy catch up on you. No threat rush spam on the CW, no need to teleport immediately.
Messing the aim would:
- be a good choice when you know a stealthed TR could be targeting you
- intercept a GWF prone move (5 illusions, all with a "target priority" would intercept even frontline)
- prevent a GWF from threatening rush at will, since his aim would be messed up
I think it would be interesting. All linked to stamina. Once new illusions are spawned, the old ones fade away.
Don't know if it could work, but could be nice. Could be a way to make it even, with the ability of the CW to cc/ keep the enemy away from him, then mix illusions and teleports, versus the ability of the enemy to guess what he will do, aim manually the CW hidden among the illusions, time the Attacks and close the gap. Illusions should have good endurance to not be erased quickly by Threat rush spam or frontline/ other AoE powers.
With this, basically you have first the ability of a CW to make good rotations and keep you away from him vs your ability to close the gap. Then, it would be your ability to catch him vs his ability to buy time and evade, waiting for his CC encounters to be available again.
HRs are in a good spot right now, for both offense and defense.
Can't say about DCs. I see the good ones still valuable in PvP, they can tank still a lot and provide extra protection, which makes a difference usually. But i'm not a DC, they probably can give better feedback.
Hey, Pers. Thanks for offering your 2 cents as a high-end PVP-er. Always a welcome break from all the non-factual arguments we've been having so far. And I actually agree with some of your points. I particularly dislike the PoB/SS/ITC play style myself and I can never bring myself to play like so, even if the meta demands it. PoB/SS/ITC is not exactly the most engaging rotation in the game, but that's pretty much what us TR's have been relegated to. It's currently the one most optimal rotation for PVP TR's.
People complained about Impact Shot when clearly Tenacity will be fixing it, but the nerf still pushed through. Impact Shot was the one skill TR's held onto from the previous meta and its been gimped heavily, making it unusable with this current meta. Nowadays, Lashing Blade and PoB are the only remaining viable damage encounters for PVP TR's. We've been reduced to having only 2 damage encounters to choose from. And of course, the one that hits for sure, which is PoB, will most likely be chosen by the majority.
As for the topic of 1 vs. 1's and Natural Predators, you have a point. But then again, although it may be a bad system, what we can all say for sure is that this is what PVP is right now. We'd all love to have PVP that is solely based on skill alone. But NW PVP is simply not like that, and I'm not sure if the devs are even planning to change this RPS + CC meta. It's already there. Us TR's contend with this meta using Stealth, our class mechanic and overall identity, as we have zero effective CC's for PVP. Not much skill is involved when the first person to land the CC to start the CC-lock wins. It's a meta dictated by CC and chain prones, where taking away the other person's ability to react is what wins battles.
lb is not viable at all.to work u need pvorp and then if u see pbile tr u can just leave
The DC's Miracle healer set is not effected by healing depression, I give it a couple days before half the DC's on the game will be exploiting the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of it, it is not the only class to have a game breaking exploit at the moment .
I am terrified when the devs decide to change things because they usually break other things in the process, its like for them this game is still in open beta or worse alpha given they don't even consider their player base, armor pen still doesn't work on half the powers ingame, if it wasn't so sad it would be laughable .
You can't add something like tenacity, healing depression, or elo to pvp without expecting to break things, why not try fixing the things that are broken and have been for months, before attempting to integrate something so big and complicated, all you have proven to the community is you have no intention of fixing anything and basically are satisfied with leaving things unfinished and broken .
The topic is about the permanent aspect of stealth builds. I find it a rather minor yet important change. And who is 'we'? So you consider youself an end game player? I consider myself that too (a rather average one when it comes to gear comparison, but is gear what defines for you an 'end-game' player?).
By the contrary. That 'oceaon of tears' is in fact honest feedback from players. Let one be more experienced that the other, that is of second importance: Balance is something which requires great numbers and statistics to test. If the majority of players are not happy with a given situation it is more likely they will give a certain feedback towards that particular mismatch. It is up to the dev's to decide if these feedbacks are solid enough to make a change.
I think it is a general misconception to assume that someone providing feedback on the forums is automatically someone with no clue about PvP or not geared enough. Probably most newcomers dont even use the forum. And instead of complaining about 'endless QQing' you could have given solid arguments against certain nerfes done in the past. No idea if you did, but apparently these arguments where not solid enough.
As far as the OP. Permanent Stealth builds, and people complaining about not being able to fight them effectively 1 vs 1. This is a L2P Issue. When I say that, I don't mean literally, you don't(in general)know how to play your class. When I say l2P...I mean play smart. Like we do in premades. If we are having a difficult time on a particular node contesting against any given player, whether that be a TR, or a GWF etc....we will adjust accordingly, and move out "said" player with a different class, or bring in back up. There is nothing at all wrong, with the fact that CW's have a hard time fighting a Stealth class...in a SMALL NODE. Its not UNbalanced. Its balanced perfectly. Smart players know this, and again...they adjust. Should every single class, be able to beat every single class 1 vs 1 with equal skill and equal gear? That answer is no...a hell no. A healing DC, should never be able to kill any pure dps class by themselves 1 vs 1, in a "small area". Do you see DC's complaining about it? No.. A TR unstealthed out in the open is food for a good CW. A stealthed TR in a very small area, against 1 single CW....generally ends bad for the CW. Does that mean we ****ing nerf Stealth because YOU are too stupid to adjust your tactics? No. But because Cryptic listened to all these terrible players...they are continually smashing any resemblance of PvP in this game into that of a G-rated Hello Kitty game.
Yes. Feedback, whether good..or bad..is needed. However, the majority of the feedback in THIS particular game about PvP, is generally lopsided views of bad, or inexperienced players. Cryptic Devs. Being roflterrible at PvP themselves, didn't have the smarts to filter through all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and find the hundreds of actual GOOD ideas on how to improve PvP, by players that actually KNOW how to PvP, and make it successful.
It would be one thing, if the PvE was amazing and challenging in this game. But we all know it is neither. The ONE single thing that was any sort of challenging in this game WAS PvP. Now they have ruined it. The only possible way of saving this games population now, would be to completely revert all these ridiculous changes they have done and bring it back to the way it was 2 months ago. More Maps, 1 single way, to Q against premades. Obviously that isn't going to happen, but even if they did...they have already lost thousands of players over the past couple months due to this very thing I am talking about.
They had a great building block for excellent PvP. But they took a giant dump on it by listening to the wrong people.
I loved this game from the get go. They have let the population destroy it. Its really too bad
I really wonder where people get their info that "thousands of people" have left the game because of the pvp changes...
There are some Steam (I think) graphs that show a steep decline in population in the last months. Up to you to decide if this is a reasonable estimation of how the overall game population fluctuates.
It would be a miracle for the situation to get better considering the new upcoming MMOs.
He didn't say "thousands of people left" the game because of the pvp changes, he said thousands left over the past couple of months...
I personally have seen good pvper's leave Neverwinter by the dozen, a lot more will follow if module 3 doesn't deliver and if nothing is done to fix pvp, and like pers3phone said there are a few mmo's just around the corner that will deliver, so the situation seems dire .
Yeah I completely agree. I would take Impact Shots over PotB any day. I know for a fact many TRs hate it, as they complained having to use it. It's a shame the consecutive nerfs resulted in this and it's all a consequence of the developers not communicating enough with the PvP community, all classes, and listening mostly to the people that went in unprepared and got destroyed as a consequence.
As for the skill-based system we don't have it's all a theoretical discussion. I am just mentioning it would be better, I have no hopes of ever seeing it implemented. I have long lost desires and hope for my char to be anything but support and I'm content playing it as such. Sometimes I get lucky and even kill my natural predators solo, but yeah, I'd call those "extraordinary circumstances" and not try to set up myself for them.
As for the prone CC chains, I thank heavens they still exists in a limited form, even as my CW dies a lot from them. Locking up people to kill them faster is what makes the game more dynamic. If not for prones, geared people from classes such as GWF would take AGES to kill.
So in conclusion, better leave it as it is I suppose, cause I fear that attempts at fixing things will make the game even worse
Agreed. It's just not the same, having to rely on PoB which was previously the worst skill next to Blitz. Now there's just not much to choose from, really. Beggars can't be choosers.
You know, sometimes I think it'd be better if the devs made some sort of testing team comprised of hardcore players from the live server for both PVP and PVE, who can provide them with the feedback they need. The devs clearly haven't had the chance to play their game as much as their own players, so feedback from a trusted, experienced, and screened group of Neverwinter Testers would be valuable; just so that they have a better view of what the base line for balance should look like. They get the feedback of the general population in the forums anyway, and lots of it. What they need are feedback from players with extensive experience with the game. The game would walk towards a better path if they can do something like that.
But of course that might be too much work since there will be loads of applicants.
I really wonder where people get their info that "thousands of people" have left the game because of the pvp changes...
Not sure about thousands, but most of my friends and mentors from Open Beta are gone. My first guild also died due to inactivity, but we are seeking to start taking in members again one of these days. Lots of our players quit when the first big balancing patch was done, the patch that may have contributed the most to the decline of old players.
So thousands might not be all that far-fetched, in my opinion.
So much crying, every single day...every single patch, about nearly every single class at 1 point and time.
Cryptic has proven they haven't a clue how PvP should be done, or how class's should be balanced, by way of getting completely and utterly destroyed by my guild in a premade vs the dev team.
So they looked to the mass's. Unfortunately the mass's are generally low skilled, or new players, or players that "think" they have skill and give all sorts of ridiculous feedback. Generally consisting of nerf this, now lets nerf that.
The end game players wanted minor changes, because they knew the system was well built, it just needed a fiew tweaks. More maps, and a way to Q specifically for premade matches, is all we asked for.
But because of the overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums, they gave us this incredibly jacked up beyond all recognition matchmaking system, a ridiculous Tenacity stat that I highly doubt follows any normal logic of actual math, and the nerf bat on countless class's and abilities.
You can thank yourself, for ruining what was once
a good PvP experience
..all because you(in general), were too lazy to learn about other class's mechanics and abilities, and
gear yourself properly
before entering PvP.
5 more Days
and 1/3 of the already dwindling population will be gone, all thanks to you
Cheers!
Business's that fails to cater to the majority of their customers will not be in business for long.
That particular match meant little. The makers of an apache helicopter gunship would lose in a battle against helicopter gunship pilots. Makers of sniper rifles would lose against a special forces sniper team. Assembly line workers for the M1 Abrams battle tank would lose in a tank battle against a trained tank team ; etc, etc, etc.
If the majority population of PVP players were having this good PVP experience you speak of, there would not have been this (let me quote you) "... overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums..." that you complain of.
Not every player were willing or able to use the various duplicitous means and methods of over-gearing themselves that you ask for.
The first part(5 days) of your forecasting sentence is over-estimated by more than 16 %. This means the rest of your forecast (1/3) is unreliable.
Comments
Problem is that at the highest levels...
- CW only dominate DCs (read, CW can kill DC after a 5-10 minute battle, in real match DC would get support way before they're dead)
- CW usually loses EACH other 1vs1, including with great GFs
- CW is relegated to support class because even if they are uberskilled&geared, it's not reliable to let them contest or try to kill mostly anything alone, too risky
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as PotB if you need to touch point
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as Shocking Execution critting you for dead from half HP (this is in the context where ALL other burst damage was killed by Tenacity...)
- 1vs1s in real premades are important, it's good if you can overpower the guy they send to contest with you reliably, although of course rotations and helping is just as important
Most importantly:
"Natural Predator" and "RPS" are pretty bad systems. They allow certain classes to play the hero and feel awesome, and others to play the cowardly support and die each time an adversary with similar skill and gear catches them.
It's bad to have encounter results based on class. The result should be solely determined by player skill, experience and gear.
they sure deseve it after carrying us all in pve.its time they get something back moochers.
ayn rand
lol wishful thinking, what might happen is actually the opposite, NERF! but if you meant buff on control/survivability sure, but dps? hell no!
So much crying, every single day...every single patch, about nearly every single class at 1 point and time.
Cryptic has proven they haven't a clue how PvP should be done, or how class's should be balanced, by way of getting completely and utterly destroyed by my guild in a premade vs the dev team. So they looked to the mass's. Unfortunately the mass's are generally low skilled, or new players, or players that "think" they have skill and give all sorts of ridiculous feedback. Generally consisting of nerf this, now lets nerf that.
The end game players wanted minor changes, because they knew the system was well built, it just needed a fiew tweaks. More maps, and a way to Q specifically for premade matches, is all we asked for.
But because of the overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums, they gave us this incredibly jacked up beyond all recognition matchmaking system, a ridiculous Tenacity stat that I highly doubt follows any normal logic of actual math, and the nerf bat on countless class's and abilities.
You can thank yourself, for ruining what was once a good PvP experience..all because you(in general), were too lazy to learn about other class's mechanics and abilities, and gear yourself properly before entering PvP.
5 more Days and 1/3 of the already dwindling population will be gone, all thanks to you
Cheers!
I'll bite. Show me a youtube or twitch link of any top CW in the world beating one of the top perma-TR in 1vs1 node battles.
I would like to see it so I can "adapt and learn how to not just play but own my character".
Or better yet, teach me. I'm giving you a chance to backup your statements.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
You want me to slot in an artifact with a 3 minute cooldown that will most likely fail anyway? So now I've wasted my artifact slot on a lantern while the TR has emblem or waters for even more healing?
I would like to ask you for tips and tricks on how to deal with perma-stealth TRs.
Nodes 1 and 3 have either a perma-TR or a GWF there. So you are saying CWs should only stick to 2 because he dies to either of them? You realize the point of the game is to capture and hold nodes right? So now as a CW, I 100% have to call for help. I've handicapped my team now since I only go to 2 and I my role has been reduced to rotation DPS (which means making my team 2vs1 that annoying permastealth hanging out on our node thus giving them advantage). I'm pretty much a DC except I die quicker and cannot waste the TR or GWF's time as much.
I wouldn't call that a L2P issue, I'd call that a class imbalance issue.
By the way, some people arguing CWs should never beat TRs, some people are arguing every class has the ability to beat the other class if you think hard enough. Which is it?
Also I'm getting a bit tired of people claiming that everyone will leave the game because of some changes they didn't like. I haven't seen any less people in game, and I'm sure that like with each new content, more players will come back with module 3.
Well, *IF* they nerf the TR's stealth abilities, be prepared for a lot of those threads
I have no trouble giving up perma stealth IF and only IF they give us more tools to defend outselves like more stuns, CC's, poisons, etc. Because right now, a TR without stealth is as good as dead.
No offense here, but:
Good CWs can kill bad or ungeared TRs ALL DAY EVERYDAY. Not even a fair fight by all means. I fought some lower GS permas yesterday they had to team up two of them to kill my CW and even then they still ran for pots or died in the process. Such fights are not even worth mentioning though. Give a decent permaTR R8s and perfects, boons and epic artifacts and he will be a challenge even to a r10s BiS CW.
Problem arise when both the TR and the CW are relatively experienced and similarly geared&skilled.
Hey, Pers. Thanks for offering your 2 cents as a high-end PVP-er. Always a welcome break from all the non-factual arguments we've been having so far.
People complained about Impact Shot when clearly Tenacity will be fixing it, but the nerf still pushed through. Impact Shot was the one skill TR's held onto from the previous meta and its been gimped heavily, making it unusable with this current meta. Nowadays, Lashing Blade and PoB are the only remaining viable damage encounters for PVP TR's. We've been reduced to having only 2 damage encounters to choose from. And of course, the one that hits for sure, which is PoB, will most likely be chosen by the majority.
As for the topic of 1 vs. 1's and Natural Predators, you have a point. But then again, although it may be a bad system, what we can all say for sure is that this is what PVP is right now. We'd all love to have PVP that is solely based on skill alone. But NW PVP is simply not like that, and I'm not sure if the devs are even planning to change this RPS + CC meta. It's already there. Us TR's contend with this meta using Stealth, our class mechanic and overall identity, as we have zero effective CC's for PVP. Not much skill is involved when the first person to land the CC to start the CC-lock wins. It's a meta dictated by CC and chain prones, where taking away the other person's ability to react is what wins battles.
Do you run a PvP build with sizeable defenses, Tenacity and HP? Did you built your TR with high Recovery and so on? You know that permas mostly rely on their Perfect Biles to actually kill stuff?
What I'm trying to say is that some builds shine at certain levels of gear. If you think same GS CWs are challenging, maybe you're missing on some specific stuff that your class does to counter them
Of course the true perma stealth build requires for high end enchants, but true perma isn't my style. I usually go for a much more combat oriented playstyle in pvp.
Yeah I completely agree. I would take Impact Shots over PotB any day. I know for a fact many TRs hate it, as they complained having to use it. It's a shame the consecutive nerfs resulted in this and it's all a consequence of the developers not communicating enough with the PvP community, all classes, and listening mostly to the people that went in unprepared and got destroyed as a consequence.
As for the skill-based system we don't have it's all a theoretical discussion. I am just mentioning it would be better, I have no hopes of ever seeing it implemented. I have long lost desires and hope for my char to be anything but support and I'm content playing it as such. Sometimes I get lucky and even kill my natural predators solo, but yeah, I'd call those "extraordinary circumstances" and not try to set up myself for them.
As for the prone CC chains, I thank heavens they still exists in a limited form, even as my CW dies a lot from them. Locking up people to kill them faster is what makes the game more dynamic. If not for prones, geared people from classes such as GWF would take AGES to kill.
So in conclusion, better leave it as it is I suppose, cause I fear that attempts at fixing things will make the game even worse
Agreed with your entire post, it is a fair assessment of the actual situation, a large part of the top tier pvper's will move on to other games it is inevitable .
Elo is broken beyond repair, (Q times, uneven matchmaking some would even say <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> matchmaking) and even if they fixed it there is not enough player base for it to work as they intend it to, tenacity has improved nothing, pugs still get stomped, good premades still roll on everyone, games last way to long, seen some premades/inhouses last well over an hour, some guilds have even passed the 2 hour mark just to reach 1000 pts, can anyone here really say things are better now than they were before the pvp patch (needed class adjustments aside)?
The TR has the tools to evade and deal damage, going ITC, tanking, then dodge roll immune and fade into stealth, dodge roll again to evade more, stay stealthed and throw knives to soften the opponents, get out of shadows and go ITC again exc...
Requires gear to deal enough damage but also skill to time correctly the transitions from ITC immunity, to dodge roll immunity, and then evade with stealth trying to not be predictable. And SE as a finishing move (may be if it got less damage. Right now, more than a "finishing" move, it's a "free kill". Just need to take the opponent to 50% HP in the worst case).
The GWF, on the other hand, have it's prones, its mobility and tankyness/ unstoppable. Tankyness and unstoppable allow the GWF to endure the damage while he tries to find a opening to catch the TR. Can either try to land a frontline/ roar in the small Windows during transitions from one immunity to the other (from ITC to dodge roll and from one dodge roll to the other), or use experience and mobility to locate and spot the stealthed TR when fighting on a point. If he manage to catch the TR, he can land his prone chain combo. Which is fair.
I think pretty much the same should apply for every class vs GWFs/ GFs.
Ability to evade vs ability to catch the opponent.
For CWs it should be the ability to keep the enemy at a distance and evade if the enemy get in range. May be giving the yet a bit more CC in PvP and add few simple defensive moves. Could be nice if with one tap they could spawn illusions around them that can intercept the damage and mess up the enemy aim, and with a double tap they could teleport the way they do now. Then they could mix it to defend against stealthed TRs or melee fighters, or ranged fighters. Thinking about it, if the CW is not predictable, he can spawn illusions around him (a small crowd that surround the CW, similar to when a DC moves in and out from the brawl to mess your aim. Illusions may have a "target priority", redirecting your aim on them if you previously locked on the CW. This way, you've to aim manually), similar to TRs shadow clones, or he can just teleport. Basically, it's a tool to tank once the enemy catch up on you. No threat rush spam on the CW, no need to teleport immediately.
Messing the aim would:
- be a good choice when you know a stealthed TR could be targeting you
- intercept a GWF prone move (5 illusions, all with a "target priority" would intercept even frontline)
- prevent a GWF from threatening rush at will, since his aim would be messed up
I think it would be interesting. All linked to stamina. Once new illusions are spawned, the old ones fade away.
Don't know if it could work, but could be nice. Could be a way to make it even, with the ability of the CW to cc/ keep the enemy away from him, then mix illusions and teleports, versus the ability of the enemy to guess what he will do, aim manually the CW hidden among the illusions, time the Attacks and close the gap. Illusions should have good endurance to not be erased quickly by Threat rush spam or frontline/ other AoE powers.
With this, basically you have first the ability of a CW to make good rotations and keep you away from him vs your ability to close the gap. Then, it would be your ability to catch him vs his ability to buy time and evade, waiting for his CC encounters to be available again.
HRs are in a good spot right now, for both offense and defense.
Can't say about DCs. I see the good ones still valuable in PvP, they can tank still a lot and provide extra protection, which makes a difference usually. But i'm not a DC, they probably can give better feedback.
lb is not viable at all.to work u need pvorp and then if u see pbile tr u can just leave
I am terrified when the devs decide to change things because they usually break other things in the process, its like for them this game is still in open beta or worse alpha given they don't even consider their player base, armor pen still doesn't work on half the powers ingame, if it wasn't so sad it would be laughable .
You can't add something like tenacity, healing depression, or elo to pvp without expecting to break things, why not try fixing the things that are broken and have been for months, before attempting to integrate something so big and complicated, all you have proven to the community is you have no intention of fixing anything and basically are satisfied with leaving things unfinished and broken .
Off topic rant/off
As far as the OP. Permanent Stealth builds, and people complaining about not being able to fight them effectively 1 vs 1. This is a L2P Issue. When I say that, I don't mean literally, you don't(in general)know how to play your class. When I say l2P...I mean play smart. Like we do in premades. If we are having a difficult time on a particular node contesting against any given player, whether that be a TR, or a GWF etc....we will adjust accordingly, and move out "said" player with a different class, or bring in back up. There is nothing at all wrong, with the fact that CW's have a hard time fighting a Stealth class...in a SMALL NODE. Its not UNbalanced. Its balanced perfectly. Smart players know this, and again...they adjust. Should every single class, be able to beat every single class 1 vs 1 with equal skill and equal gear? That answer is no...a hell no. A healing DC, should never be able to kill any pure dps class by themselves 1 vs 1, in a "small area". Do you see DC's complaining about it? No.. A TR unstealthed out in the open is food for a good CW. A stealthed TR in a very small area, against 1 single CW....generally ends bad for the CW. Does that mean we ****ing nerf Stealth because YOU are too stupid to adjust your tactics? No. But because Cryptic listened to all these terrible players...they are continually smashing any resemblance of PvP in this game into that of a G-rated Hello Kitty game.
Yes. Feedback, whether good..or bad..is needed. However, the majority of the feedback in THIS particular game about PvP, is generally lopsided views of bad, or inexperienced players. Cryptic Devs. Being roflterrible at PvP themselves, didn't have the smarts to filter through all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and find the hundreds of actual GOOD ideas on how to improve PvP, by players that actually KNOW how to PvP, and make it successful.
It would be one thing, if the PvE was amazing and challenging in this game. But we all know it is neither. The ONE single thing that was any sort of challenging in this game WAS PvP. Now they have ruined it. The only possible way of saving this games population now, would be to completely revert all these ridiculous changes they have done and bring it back to the way it was 2 months ago. More Maps, 1 single way, to Q against premades. Obviously that isn't going to happen, but even if they did...they have already lost thousands of players over the past couple months due to this very thing I am talking about.
They had a great building block for excellent PvP. But they took a giant dump on it by listening to the wrong people.
I loved this game from the get go. They have let the population destroy it. Its really too bad
There are some Steam (I think) graphs that show a steep decline in population in the last months. Up to you to decide if this is a reasonable estimation of how the overall game population fluctuates.
It would be a miracle for the situation to get better considering the new upcoming MMOs.
I personally have seen good pvper's leave Neverwinter by the dozen, a lot more will follow if module 3 doesn't deliver and if nothing is done to fix pvp, and like pers3phone said there are a few mmo's just around the corner that will deliver, so the situation seems dire .
Agreed.
You know, sometimes I think it'd be better if the devs made some sort of testing team comprised of hardcore players from the live server for both PVP and PVE, who can provide them with the feedback they need. The devs clearly haven't had the chance to play their game as much as their own players, so feedback from a trusted, experienced, and screened group of Neverwinter Testers would be valuable; just so that they have a better view of what the base line for balance should look like. They get the feedback of the general population in the forums anyway, and lots of it. What they need are feedback from players with extensive experience with the game. The game would walk towards a better path if they can do something like that.
But of course that might be too much work since there will be loads of applicants.
Not sure about thousands, but most of my friends and mentors from Open Beta are gone. My first guild also died due to inactivity, but we are seeking to start taking in members again one of these days. Lots of our players quit when the first big balancing patch was done, the patch that may have contributed the most to the decline of old players.
So thousands might not be all that far-fetched, in my opinion.
CC-nerf didn't hit them at all unlike every other class. Tenacity only helps them. Hell, Shocking Execution ignores tenacity completely LOL.
Give me a break.
Business's that fails to cater to the majority of their customers will not be in business for long.
That particular match meant little. The makers of an apache helicopter gunship would lose in a battle against helicopter gunship pilots. Makers of sniper rifles would lose against a special forces sniper team. Assembly line workers for the M1 Abrams battle tank would lose in a tank battle against a trained tank team ; etc, etc, etc.
If the majority population of PVP players were having this good PVP experience you speak of, there would not have been this (let me quote you) "... overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums..." that you complain of.
Not every player were willing or able to use the various duplicitous means and methods of over-gearing themselves that you ask for.
The first part(5 days) of your forecasting sentence is over-estimated by more than 16 %. This means the rest of your forecast (1/3) is unreliable.
Cheers indeed.