3) The current proposed changes being looked into for stealth mechanics are:
- Making one visible to those they attack from stealth (temporary or permanently for the duration I believe is not stated)
- Making one's attacks from stealth deal less damage the longer they attack from stealth
Well since a CW can do ZERO damage while the TR is in stealth, I think the TR doing minimal damage back during stealth is a step in the right direction. It is still a one-sided affair, but a step in the right direction.
A CW with oppressive force? You clearly do not play any other class.
First of all, are you suggesting wasting a daily JUST for a CHANCE to SEE the TR? Also, Ranged TRs are immune to this
I have 5 lvl 60, thx for your concern! Didn't check this paragorn to be honest i alway been a master infiltrator but i doubt highly that they are imune to OP... And if for you using an op to most probably kill a tr running around you and playing iwth you is a waste, well YEA i suggest you waste it and stop whining that you cant find it because you want to see him so you can icy knife him instead.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Well since a CW can do ZERO damage while the TR is in stealth, I think the TR doing minimal damage back during stealth is a step in the right direction. It is still a one-sided affair, but a step in the right direction.
it is not, stop it now cw have plenty of ways to do damage to a tr.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Well since a CW can do ZERO damage while the TR is in stealth, I think the TR doing minimal damage back during stealth is a step in the right direction. It is still a one-sided affair, but a step in the right direction.
perma stealth is the most cowardly of this game! ie an invincible advantage if the tr use bilethorn and impossible to catch! and another come knocking without being seen is very easy now shows the face of others - shame! total offense to the lore of any RPG or any game, imagine one Bilbo with a perma-one-ring, or Drizzt invisible while attacking this is ridiculous, or Garret with a f* perma-noobish stealht in all time even when attack enemy!
summary of the current status of the game: give every advantage to one or two classes and let the other full of bugs and unbalanced, cut arms and legs and turn the population of nvo classes in a population of fashion classes: the gwfs, trs and hrs!
1) It is already stated that they will be making changes to stealth mechanics. Check the TR class forums under "Potential Stealth Mechanic Changes" to see it. Therefore, there is no point in debating whether or not TR does or does not need a stealth nerf.
2) One of the things mentioned in that statement was they do intend to continue to allow players to be really stealthy if they can have that kind of stealth based build. The proposed changes that were stated do not involve altering stealth duration. We have also seen the recent addition of even more stealth via +30% stealth gear recently. Therefore, rather than debate about significant stealth reduction ideas, (such as making someone come out of stealth completely any time they attack), the discussions should be about changes which would be more practical with the idea the developers are taking (which is not significantly altering stealth duration).
3) The current proposed changes being looked into for stealth mechanics are:
- Making one visible to those they attack from stealth (temporary or permanently for the duration I believe is not stated)
- Making one's attacks from stealth deal less damage the longer they attack from stealth
Suggested or debated changes should follow similar paths or be feedback in response to the proposed changes.
I do not want limit anyone on what they can say, and people should surely feel free to bring up whatever they desire in this discussion, but it looks like the developers already have a set direction in mind on how they plan to deal with this situation. Feedback or suggestions which coincide with this view probably have a higher chance of getting recognized and implemented in the future.
The one that would make a difference in PVP would be making them visible while attacking from stealth. Rogues have found a way around everything and would no doubt find a way around decreasing damage from stealth (I doubt it would be very significant unless damage is done for VERY LONG, like minutes, from stealth- this is probably proposed to stop rogues from soloing dungeons more than PVP).
I doubt we'll see it though. Too many rogues would flip their lids if they didn't have some way to remain invincible at all times.
"You think, you adapt"
- excuses from a perma TR on how a CW can beat them.
How about SHOWING IT? Stop making these non-specific statements.
Go on twitch, go on youtube. Look up top guilds in neverwinter PVP premades.
Look up how many times an elite CW was able to beat an elite TR in 1vs1 node battles. Now what about the opposite?
Until the PVP meta changes, 1vs1 node battles will be a staple in all PVP games.
Apparently you are either not keen in understanding or reading. Just chill for a second so we can have a proper discussion. Because right now, there's just no discussing with your irrationality. Just think. We've been presenting you facts on top of more facts, but for some reason you keep disregarding the "facts" portion of the post and would just address one small part of our posts that you interpret in however way would support your vendetta against TR's. I understand you are very angry and are desperate to have PVP easier for you, but we should at least have a proper discussion by addressing all presented facts instead of just choosing one portion that you think you can handle.
Now to address your post, what exactly should I show? An equally skilled and geared TR and CW dueling where the CW comes out on top? No, friend. Like I said in my previous post, which you apparently intentionally missed, TR's are the natural bane of CW's as we were developed to bypass your defenses which are your range, DPS and CC. Likewise, HR's and GWF's are our natural predators. An equally skilled and geared TR vs. an equally skilled HR/GWF duels, the latter would come out victorious regardless of what build the TR uses. PVP works in an RPS manner where each class has their own natural counter. The only way to beat your natural counter is to make up for it in SKILL and INTELLIGENCE. If those remain equal in the 1 vs. 1, the natural predator will remain victorious over the prey.
And that is why you'll rarely see a CW winning in 1 vs. 1's in those Twitch/YouTube channels you love to tune in to, because most of the factors there are equal i.e, gear and player skill. TR's will dominate CW's, CW's will dominate GF's/DC's, GWF's/HR's will dominate TR's. It's a cycle, the intended RPS setup the developers imposed upon PVP to make sure that one class will always have some sort of counter and would ensure that people do not forget the most important thing in PVP; teamwork. When a TR is in your base node and you as a CW is facing up to him, in a premade match you do not face that TR by yourself; you send an HR or GWF to take care of the guy. That's how this game works. Not this silly 1 vs 1 node battle meta you are talking about. I'm not even sure where you picked that up, but the meta in PVP has always been CC-centered. The class that can CC-lock you first tends to be victorious. THAT is the meta.
1) It is already stated that they will be making changes to stealth mechanics. Check the TR class forums under "Potential Stealth Mechanic Changes" to see it. Therefore, there is no point in debating whether or not TR does or does not need a stealth nerf.
And this. This exactly. Just relax, dear CW friends. The nerfs are on the way and are confirmed by the devs! Let's just see how things pan out then. All the necessary feedback has been raised and we've been going back and forth. Once the nerf has been passed, then the next volley of feedback from you guys come.
I'm just surprised that a "please nerf x class" thread like this hasn't been closed yet, since this is pretty much against the Forum ToS. Oh well.
And this. This exactly. Just relax, dear CW friends. The nerfs are on the way and are confirmed by the devs! Let's just see how things pan out then. All the necessary feedback has been raised and we've been going back and forth. Once the nerf has been passed, then the next volley of feedback from you guys come.
I'm just surprised that a "please nerf x class" thread like this hasn't been closed yet, since this is pretty much against the Forum ToS. Oh well.
Oh don't worry. *IF* they nerf TRs, there will be threads made by TRs crying and I'm sure a lot of those threads won't be closed, or will stay open for a long time.
And that is why you'll rarely see a CW winning in 1 vs. 1's in those Twitch/YouTube channels you love to tune in to, because most of the factors there are equal i.e, gear and player skill. TR's will dominate CW's, CW's will dominate GF's/DC's, GWF's/HR's will dominate TR's. It's a cycle, the intended RPS setup the developers imposed upon PVP to make sure that one class will always have some sort of counter and would ensure that people do not forget the most important thing in PVP; teamwork. When a TR is in your base node and you as a CW is facing up to him, in a premade match you do not face that TR by yourself; you send an HR or GWF to take care of the guy. That's how this game works. Not this silly 1 vs 1 node battle meta you are talking about. I'm not even sure where you picked that up, but the meta in PVP has always been CC-centered. The class that can CC-lock you first tends to be victorious. THAT is the meta.
Not exactly true about your so-called "cycle". GWFs are capable of competing with TRs and it ends there. An HR technically can compete, but when help from either team comes, the TR can enter permastealth and waste the time of the 2-opposing players leading to an advantage.
By the way, did you say CW are capable of hanging with a DC 1vs1? EVERY CLASS is capable of hanging with DC 1vs1.
Also, if a TR or GWF is on the node, you say to call your teammates and send in another player. Well guess what, go into every relevant premade PVP match, ALL I SEE are TRs and GWFs with emblem artifacts hanging around. I don't see any CWs staying on the point for 10 minutes killing off 1 player after another (something GWFs and permaTRs can do to CWs, just go watch top pvp guilds face each other on twitch). CW is relegated into helping out in lop-sided 2 vs 1 matches
Lastly, you stated that PVP-meta has always been CC-centered. How can you CC someone in stealth? Is someone gonna suggest lantern for the sixth time? How about put a god-awful skill like steal-time? When the perma-TR finally comes out of stealth for a few seconds, he pops in "Impossible to catch", throwing the meta out to the garbage. Oh by the way, did you know TRs can bug the CW's Shard of Avalanche?
I doubt we'll see it though. Too many rogues would flip their lids if they didn't have some way to remain invincible at all times.
Hey, Hamlet. We're all past that. We've flipped our lids enough when 4 of our major skills received 33% - 60% nerfs in one fell swoop. Now it's just come what may. Even the devs seem to think we're balanced.
We're veterans in this nerfing thing. We've had the most in the history of Neverwinter. GWF's and HR's recently got their fair share of balancing, in line with TR's who seem to be the median for balance as per the devs, and now they're moving closer to a more balanced path. And you may also be aware of this but your class is causing the most imbalance for PVE, which is currently leading the devs to thinking of ways to bring your PVE output in line with TR's, GWF's and HR's. By then I'm sure there would be a spot for TR's and GF's in dungeons, but that is for another thread entirely. You may rejoice in the downfall of TR's, but you guys know that everyone will get the same thing eventually; a nerf bat to the groin to cripple your chosen builds.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
We're veterans in this nerfing thing. We've had the most in the history of Neverwinter.
This shows only that in the beginning it was even more imbalanced. I dont understand why this is always brought up as reason to not change anything anymore. Important is only the current state when it comes to changes.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Not exactly true about your so-called "cycle". GWFs are capable of competing with TRs and it ends there. An HR technically can compete, but when help from either team comes, the TR can enter permastealth and waste the time of the 2-opposing players leading to an advantage.
By the way, did you say CW are capable of hanging with a DC 1vs1? EVERY CLASS is capable of hanging with DC 1vs1.
Also, if a TR or GWF is on the node, you say to call your teammates and send in another player. Well guess what, go into every relevant premade PVP match, ALL I SEE are TRs and GWFs with emblem artifacts hanging around. I don't see any CWs staying on the point for 10 minutes killing off 1 player after another (something GWFs and permaTRs can do to CWs, just go watch top pvp guilds face each other on twitch). CW is relegated into helping out in lop-sided 2 vs 1 matches
Lastly, you stated that PVP-meta has always been CC-centered. How can you CC someone in stealth? Is someone gonna suggest lantern for the sixth time? How about put a god-awful skill like steal-time? When the perma-TR finally comes out of stealth for a few seconds, he pops in "Impossible to catch", throwing the meta out to the garbage. Oh by the way, did you know TRs can bug the CW's Shard of Avalanche?
Hi. Again, GWF's and HR's do not have problem with stealth-based and permastealth rogues. Why? Because they were built to kill them. Which is why rogues tend to fall victims to them regardless of build. This is the nth time I mentioned this in a reply to you. I know you like to watch premade PVP matches, but you don't seem to be part of the population that plays them because... well, your answers aren't bright and don't seem like they come from seasoned and experienced PVP-ers like Pers in this thread. There's a difference with watching and playing in premade matches. And seeing your uninformed replies, you don't seem to play much PVP at all as well. Probably some casual player. And apparently you don't play enough to know that good DC's should not be underestimated even with this new patch. But of course you are a CW so you always had an easy time against them PUGs by CC-lock, so I can understand how you'd think they are always easy opponents.
And yep, TR's and GWF's are able to hold nodes for prolonged periods of times. The way the TR and GWF classes were developed fits perfectly with how Domination works, and it demands that nodes should be held or captured. Your class however was developed to support from afar, to change the tide of battle by your CC's. So I'm not so sure why you would want to hold nodes as a CW when you were clearly not developed to be evasive or tanky. You're wearing a dress FFS. You're asking for a perk that you were not built to do. Likewise, no matter how us TR's wish we could, we can't chain-CC or CC-lock like CW's are GWF's. Instead, we bank on our given capabilities and improve based on them because we know our given strengths and weaknesses.
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War.
Lastly, you can't CC someone easily in Stealth, but a TR is weakest when he is in Stealth because he cannot afford to pop out of Stealth until the time is ready. If you want to CC the TR in Stealth, make the effort to do so. Slot in whatever skill or artifact you deem necessary, as long as you win. I'm a TR and can find and strike TR's when they are in Stealth, even when I am outside of Stealth. I'll find ways to do so. I can do this seemingly impossible feat because I bothered myself to learn about my class's inherent strengths, weaknesses, and optimum strategies and I did so as well for other classes. But as a CW, what exactly are you doing in a node with your natural predator? That in itself is unintelligent unless you are confident that you are better skilled than the TR. It's clearly an L2P issue when you 1 vs. 1 a rogue you're not confident of winning against.
Regardless of build, an equally skilled and geared CW will fall prey to his natural predator, the Rogue. Only way to win is to outskill or outgear him.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited March 2014
TR are balanced well for pvp. They need to be improved for pve.
Most of you are claiming every tr you fight that enters stealth is a perma stealth tr.
Just so you know.. real perma stealth tr will kill you from range and never be seen.
Stealth based TR are playing the class the way it was designed to be played.
If you dont know how to reveal a tr in stealth here are a few ways.
1) use briarwine armor enchantment. Everytime a tr hits you a shadow damage will fly back to their location plus the damage reflect will end their stealth.
2) ... just think
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
This shows only that in the beginning it was even more imbalanced. I dont understand why this is always brought up as reason to not change anything anymore. Important is only the current state when it comes to changes.
Nope. If there's one thing it shows it's that you guys don't read patch notes in their entirety. I can remember most of the heaviest nerfs each class had throughout NW, even for your CW class, because the rogue is not the only class I play. I do not favor one over the other and love each one equally. The 4 major nerfs we got back then was nerfs to our DPS skills, which were completely separate from Stealth-based rotations. Those nerfs started the popularity of Stealth-based builds simply because of your PVP cries. You guys don't want us to burst you down like we should be doing as rogues, okay. We'll deal sustained damage instead. In essence, you people contributed to this.
And that's true. Being an overly nerfed class is no real excuse to not change something about them if there is a need to do so. But I believe I never really mentioned anything about that being a reason to not change anything anymore.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Those nerfs started the popularity of Stealth-based builds simply because of your PVP cries. You guys don't want us to burst you down like we should be doing as rogues, okay. We'll deal sustained damage instead. In essence, you people contributed to this.
Ok since we are now 'crying for nerfs' let me respond to you in the same format: You write here endless stories because you fear that you have to adapt to a different and more challenging (more challenging especially against CWs) play stile. In fact you are the one 'crying' the most here, instead of having confidence into the devs that they will change the rogue playstile into a valuable, versatile and diversified class according to the original intentions.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
TR are balanced well for pvp. They need to be improved for pve.
Most of you are claiming every tr you fight that enters stealth is a perma stealth tr.
Just so you know.. real perma stealth tr will kill you from range and never be seen.
Stealth based TR are playing the class the way it was designed to be played.
If you dont know how to reveal a tr in stealth here are a few ways.
1) use briarwine armor enchantment. Everytime a tr hits you a shadow damage will fly back to their location plus the damage reflect will end their stealth.
2) ... just think
Yes. People listen up, being a perma is perfectly balanced, you only need to choose your armor enchant specifically for them! (tbh, even with this enchant the problem would still be a problem)
Although I give you permas one thing, it's hilarious how you try to defend it with stupid arguments like this one.
I've not followed this thread but I can already see why it says "Former" community moderator under todesfaelle. He tries to disguise his bad attitude in some heavy sarcasm, but it's blatantly obvious that he's a ******.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Ok since we are now 'crying for nerfs' let me respond to you in the same format: You write here endless stories because you fear that you have to adapt to a different and more challenging (more challenging especially against CWs) play stile. In fact you are the one 'crying' the most here, instead of having confidence into the devs that they will change the rogue playstile into a valuable, versatile and diversified class according to the original intentions.
You are so wrong adernath,
Todesfaelle has always been seeking new ways to play TR. He is like a sword that sharpens as it cuts. For you to say he is afraid of trying new things after he tells you he loves to play and test every class just shows your failed attempts at trying to troll him.
I never cried for a nerf for any class. Instead, I would rather learn ways to defeat them. With that said, EVERY CLASS HAS THE ABILITY TO KILL ANOTHER. (If you yourself can adapt and learn how to not just play but own your character)
If you have to cry for a nerf, you don't need to be playing this game.
Yes. People listen up, being a perma is perfectly balanced, you only need to choose your armor enchant specifically for them! (tbh, even with this enchant the problem would still be a problem)
Although I give you permas one thing, it's hilarious how you try to defend it with stupid arguments like this one.
I've not followed this thread but I can already see why it says "Former" community moderator under todesfaelle. He tries to disguise his bad attitude in some heavy sarcasm, but it's blatantly obvious that he's a ******.
P.S. I am not a perma stealth. Go watch the perm stealth videos to see a real one.
I am defending the game from people like you that want an (easy) button to all their troubles.
People like you that search online for console cheats and codes instead of beating the game with your own brain power.
We can all find a reason to cry here or a challenge to overcome here. Crying gets babies what they want until they are of age. How old are you?
Enough said...
Whiners think any TR that uses stealth is a perma stealth.... (repeat this phrase 10 times fast)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Ok since we are now 'crying for nerfs' let me respond to you in the same format: You write here endless stories because you fear that you have to adapt to a different and more challenging (more challenging especially against CWs) play stile. In fact you are the one 'crying' the most here, instead of having confidence into the devs that they will change the rogue playstile into a valuable, versatile and diversified class according to the original intentions.
Hi, Adernath. Thank you for your opinion! But you may wish to contribute with some facts next time.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I never cried for a nerf for any class. Instead, I would rather learn ways to defeat them. With that said, EVERY CLASS HAS THE ABILITY TO KILL ANOTHER. (If you yourself can adapt and learn how to not just play but own your character)
If you have to cry for a nerf, you don't need to be playing this game.
If you (or todesfaelle) declare forum feedback as 'crying' dont expect to be treated any differently. As if a game like this doesnt need any feedback. The problem with discussions like this is that there are always alot factors which comes in effect in PvP (gear, skill, class features and setups, situations, current debuffs) and this makes things not easy when you really want to talk about certain mechanics in general.
FYI I dont have much problems finding TRs. The entire discussion was about the permanent aspect of these stealth builds. In this regard I find it gives too much advantage for a few disadvantages of the TR.
We can all find a reason to cry here or a challenge to overcome here. Crying gets babies what they want until they are of age. How old are you?
Enough said...
I consider comments like this with no reasoning as trolling per excellence. No productive discussion whatsoever.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Yes. People listen up, being a perma is perfectly balanced, you only need to choose your armor enchant specifically for them! (tbh, even with this enchant the problem would still be a problem)
Although I give you permas one thing, it's hilarious how you try to defend it with stupid arguments like this one.
I've not followed this thread but I can already see why it says "Former" community moderator under todesfaelle. He tries to disguise his bad attitude in some heavy sarcasm, but it's blatantly obvious that he's a ******.
Not sure what I did to get you worked up, but relax. You are hurting my feelings. Hehe. But anyway, if you have anything to contribute to the discussion please feel free to do so. We'd be more than happy to discuss it in a civil manner.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
TR's are the natural bane of CW's as we were developed to bypass your defenses which are your range, DPS and CC. Likewise, HR's and GWF's are our natural predators. An equally skilled and geared TR vs. an equally skilled HR/GWF duels, the latter would come out victorious regardless of what build the TR uses. PVP works in an RPS manner where each class has their own natural counter. The only way to beat your natural counter is to make up for it in SKILL and INTELLIGENCE. If those remain equal in the 1 vs. 1, the natural predator will remain victorious over the prey.
And that is why you'll rarely see a CW winning in 1 vs. 1's in those Twitch/YouTube channels you love to tune in to, because most of the factors there are equal i.e, gear and player skill. TR's will dominate CW's, CW's will dominate GF's/DC's, GWF's/HR's will dominate TR's. It's a cycle, the intended RPS setup the developers imposed upon PVP to make sure that one class will always have some sort of counter and would ensure that people do not forget the most important thing in PVP; teamwork. When a TR is in your base node and you as a CW is facing up to him, in a premade match you do not face that TR by yourself; you send an HR or GWF to take care of the guy. That's how this game works. Not this silly 1 vs 1 node battle meta you are talking about. I'm not even sure where you picked that up, but the meta in PVP has always been CC-centered. The class that can CC-lock you first tends to be victorious. THAT is the meta.
Problem is that at the highest levels...
- CW only dominate DCs (read, CW can kill DC after a 5-10 minute battle, in real match DC would get support way before they're dead)
- CW usually loses EACH other 1vs1, including with great GFs
- CW is relegated to support class because even if they are uberskilled&geared, it's not reliable to let them contest or try to kill mostly anything alone, too risky
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as PotB if you need to touch point
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as Shocking Execution critting you for dead from half HP (this is in the context where ALL other burst damage was killed by Tenacity...)
- 1vs1s in real premades are important, it's good if you can overpower the guy they send to contest with you reliably, although of course rotations and helping is just as important
Most importantly:
"Natural Predator" and "RPS" are pretty bad systems. They allow certain classes to play the hero and feel awesome, and others to play the cowardly support and die each time an adversary with similar skill and gear catches them.
It's bad to have encounter results based on class. The result should be solely determined by player skill, experience and gear.
i would realy like that cws get a huge buff so they can be on same lvl as tr,gwf,good hr.
they sure deseve it after carrying us all in pve.its time they get something back moochers.
i would realy like that cws get a huge buff so they can be on same lvl as tr,gwf,good hr.
they sure deseve it after carrying us all in pve.its time they get something back moochers.
ayn rand
lol wishful thinking, what might happen is actually the opposite, NERF! but if you meant buff on control/survivability sure, but dps? hell no!
Its always something with the majority population of PvP.
So much crying, every single day...every single patch, about nearly every single class at 1 point and time.
Cryptic has proven they haven't a clue how PvP should be done, or how class's should be balanced, by way of getting completely and utterly destroyed by my guild in a premade vs the dev team. So they looked to the mass's. Unfortunately the mass's are generally low skilled, or new players, or players that "think" they have skill and give all sorts of ridiculous feedback. Generally consisting of nerf this, now lets nerf that.
The end game players wanted minor changes, because they knew the system was well built, it just needed a fiew tweaks. More maps, and a way to Q specifically for premade matches, is all we asked for.
But because of the overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums, they gave us this incredibly jacked up beyond all recognition matchmaking system, a ridiculous Tenacity stat that I highly doubt follows any normal logic of actual math, and the nerf bat on countless class's and abilities.
You can thank yourself, for ruining what was once a good PvP experience..all because you(in general), were too lazy to learn about other class's mechanics and abilities, and gear yourself properly before entering PvP.
5 more Days and 1/3 of the already dwindling population will be gone, all thanks to you
I never cried for a nerf for any class. Instead, I would rather learn ways to defeat them. With that said, EVERY CLASS HAS THE ABILITY TO KILL ANOTHER. (If you yourself can adapt and learn how to not just play but own your character)
I'll bite. Show me a youtube or twitch link of any top CW in the world beating one of the top perma-TR in 1vs1 node battles.
I would like to see it so I can "adapt and learn how to not just play but own my character".
Or better yet, teach me. I'm giving you a chance to backup your statements.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The end game players wanted minor changes, because they knew the system was well built, it just needed a fiew tweaks. More maps, and a way to Q specifically for premade matches, is all we asked for.
The topic is about the permanent aspect of stealth builds. I find it a rather minor yet important change. And who is 'we'? So you consider youself an end game player? I consider myself that too (a rather average one when it comes to gear comparison, but is gear what defines for you an 'end-game' player?).
But because of the overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums, they gave us this incredibly jacked up beyond all recognition matchmaking system, a ridiculous Tenacity stat that I highly doubt follows any normal logic of actual math, and the nerf bat on countless class's and abilities.
By the contrary. That 'oceaon of tears' is in fact honest feedback from players. Let one be more experienced that the other, that is of second importance: Balance is something which requires great numbers and statistics to test. If the majority of players are not happy with a given situation it is more likely they will give a certain feedback towards that particular mismatch. It is up to the dev's to decide if these feedbacks are solid enough to make a change.
You can thank yourself, for ruining what was once a good PvP experience..all because you(in general), were too lazy to learn about other class's mechanics and abilities, and gear yourself properly before entering PvP.
I think it is a general misconception to assume that someone providing feedback on the forums is automatically someone with no clue about PvP or not geared enough. Probably most newcomers dont even use the forum. And instead of complaining about 'endless QQing' you could have given solid arguments against certain nerfes done in the past. No idea if you did, but apparently these arguments where not solid enough.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Comments
Well since a CW can do ZERO damage while the TR is in stealth, I think the TR doing minimal damage back during stealth is a step in the right direction. It is still a one-sided affair, but a step in the right direction.
I have 5 lvl 60, thx for your concern! Didn't check this paragorn to be honest i alway been a master infiltrator but i doubt highly that they are imune to OP... And if for you using an op to most probably kill a tr running around you and playing iwth you is a waste, well YEA i suggest you waste it and stop whining that you cant find it because you want to see him so you can icy knife him instead.
it is not, stop it now cw have plenty of ways to do damage to a tr.
Keep dreaming.
I don't understand why and I especially don't understand why PvP effectiveness rolls over into PVE.
TR's unless they are with a guild, can't get into any dungeons because they get kicked by the non Party TR leader
Too much whining due to people not learning how to play PvP is resulting into game changes that don't need to be made.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
summary of the current status of the game: give every advantage to one or two classes and let the other full of bugs and unbalanced, cut arms and legs and turn the population of nvo classes in a population of fashion classes: the gwfs, trs and hrs!
what else can we expect?
The one that would make a difference in PVP would be making them visible while attacking from stealth. Rogues have found a way around everything and would no doubt find a way around decreasing damage from stealth (I doubt it would be very significant unless damage is done for VERY LONG, like minutes, from stealth- this is probably proposed to stop rogues from soloing dungeons more than PVP).
I doubt we'll see it though. Too many rogues would flip their lids if they didn't have some way to remain invincible at all times.
It is a balancing act. I am actually in favor of buffing PVE-centric TR skills and nerfing PVP-centric TR skills if that is possible
Apparently you are either not keen in understanding or reading.
Now to address your post, what exactly should I show? An equally skilled and geared TR and CW dueling where the CW comes out on top? No, friend. Like I said in my previous post, which you apparently intentionally missed, TR's are the natural bane of CW's as we were developed to bypass your defenses which are your range, DPS and CC. Likewise, HR's and GWF's are our natural predators. An equally skilled and geared TR vs. an equally skilled HR/GWF duels, the latter would come out victorious regardless of what build the TR uses. PVP works in an RPS manner where each class has their own natural counter. The only way to beat your natural counter is to make up for it in SKILL and INTELLIGENCE. If those remain equal in the 1 vs. 1, the natural predator will remain victorious over the prey.
And that is why you'll rarely see a CW winning in 1 vs. 1's in those Twitch/YouTube channels you love to tune in to, because most of the factors there are equal i.e, gear and player skill. TR's will dominate CW's, CW's will dominate GF's/DC's, GWF's/HR's will dominate TR's. It's a cycle, the intended RPS setup the developers imposed upon PVP to make sure that one class will always have some sort of counter and would ensure that people do not forget the most important thing in PVP; teamwork. When a TR is in your base node and you as a CW is facing up to him, in a premade match you do not face that TR by yourself; you send an HR or GWF to take care of the guy. That's how this game works. Not this silly 1 vs 1 node battle meta you are talking about. I'm not even sure where you picked that up, but the meta in PVP has always been CC-centered. The class that can CC-lock you first tends to be victorious. THAT is the meta.
And this. This exactly. Just relax, dear CW friends. The nerfs are on the way and are confirmed by the devs!
I'm just surprised that a "please nerf x class" thread like this hasn't been closed yet, since this is pretty much against the Forum ToS. Oh well.
Oh don't worry. *IF* they nerf TRs, there will be threads made by TRs crying and I'm sure a lot of those threads won't be closed, or will stay open for a long time.
Not exactly true about your so-called "cycle". GWFs are capable of competing with TRs and it ends there. An HR technically can compete, but when help from either team comes, the TR can enter permastealth and waste the time of the 2-opposing players leading to an advantage.
By the way, did you say CW are capable of hanging with a DC 1vs1? EVERY CLASS is capable of hanging with DC 1vs1.
Also, if a TR or GWF is on the node, you say to call your teammates and send in another player. Well guess what, go into every relevant premade PVP match, ALL I SEE are TRs and GWFs with emblem artifacts hanging around. I don't see any CWs staying on the point for 10 minutes killing off 1 player after another (something GWFs and permaTRs can do to CWs, just go watch top pvp guilds face each other on twitch). CW is relegated into helping out in lop-sided 2 vs 1 matches
Lastly, you stated that PVP-meta has always been CC-centered. How can you CC someone in stealth? Is someone gonna suggest lantern for the sixth time? How about put a god-awful skill like steal-time? When the perma-TR finally comes out of stealth for a few seconds, he pops in "Impossible to catch", throwing the meta out to the garbage. Oh by the way, did you know TRs can bug the CW's Shard of Avalanche?
Hey, Hamlet. We're all past that. We've flipped our lids enough when 4 of our major skills received 33% - 60% nerfs in one fell swoop. Now it's just come what may. Even the devs seem to think we're balanced.
We're veterans in this nerfing thing. We've had the most in the history of Neverwinter. GWF's and HR's recently got their fair share of balancing, in line with TR's who seem to be the median for balance as per the devs, and now they're moving closer to a more balanced path. And you may also be aware of this but your class is causing the most imbalance for PVE, which is currently leading the devs to thinking of ways to bring your PVE output in line with TR's, GWF's and HR's. By then I'm sure there would be a spot for TR's and GF's in dungeons, but that is for another thread entirely. You may rejoice in the downfall of TR's, but you guys know that everyone will get the same thing eventually; a nerf bat to the groin to cripple your chosen builds.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Hi. Again, GWF's and HR's do not have problem with stealth-based and permastealth rogues. Why? Because they were built to kill them. Which is why rogues tend to fall victims to them regardless of build. This is the nth time I mentioned this in a reply to you. I know you like to watch premade PVP matches, but you don't seem to be part of the population that plays them because... well, your answers aren't bright and don't seem like they come from seasoned and experienced PVP-ers like Pers in this thread. There's a difference with watching and playing in premade matches. And seeing your uninformed replies, you don't seem to play much PVP at all as well. Probably some casual player. And apparently you don't play enough to know that good DC's should not be underestimated even with this new patch. But of course you are a CW so you always had an easy time against them PUGs by CC-lock, so I can understand how you'd think they are always easy opponents.
And yep, TR's and GWF's are able to hold nodes for prolonged periods of times. The way the TR and GWF classes were developed fits perfectly with how Domination works, and it demands that nodes should be held or captured. Your class however was developed to support from afar, to change the tide of battle by your CC's. So I'm not so sure why you would want to hold nodes as a CW when you were clearly not developed to be evasive or tanky. You're wearing a dress FFS. You're asking for a perk that you were not built to do. Likewise, no matter how us TR's wish we could, we can't chain-CC or CC-lock like CW's are GWF's. Instead, we bank on our given capabilities and improve based on them because we know our given strengths and weaknesses.
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War.
Lastly, you can't CC someone easily in Stealth, but a TR is weakest when he is in Stealth because he cannot afford to pop out of Stealth until the time is ready. If you want to CC the TR in Stealth, make the effort to do so. Slot in whatever skill or artifact you deem necessary, as long as you win. I'm a TR and can find and strike TR's when they are in Stealth, even when I am outside of Stealth. I'll find ways to do so. I can do this seemingly impossible feat because I bothered myself to learn about my class's inherent strengths, weaknesses, and optimum strategies and I did so as well for other classes. But as a CW, what exactly are you doing in a node with your natural predator? That in itself is unintelligent unless you are confident that you are better skilled than the TR. It's clearly an L2P issue when you 1 vs. 1 a rogue you're not confident of winning against.
Regardless of build, an equally skilled and geared CW will fall prey to his natural predator, the Rogue. Only way to win is to outskill or outgear him.
Most of you are claiming every tr you fight that enters stealth is a perma stealth tr.
Just so you know.. real perma stealth tr will kill you from range and never be seen.
Stealth based TR are playing the class the way it was designed to be played.
If you dont know how to reveal a tr in stealth here are a few ways.
1) use briarwine armor enchantment. Everytime a tr hits you a shadow damage will fly back to their location plus the damage reflect will end their stealth.
2) ... just think
Nope. If there's one thing it shows it's that you guys don't read patch notes in their entirety. I can remember most of the heaviest nerfs each class had throughout NW, even for your CW class, because the rogue is not the only class I play. I do not favor one over the other and love each one equally. The 4 major nerfs we got back then was nerfs to our DPS skills, which were completely separate from Stealth-based rotations. Those nerfs started the popularity of Stealth-based builds simply because of your PVP cries.
And that's true. Being an overly nerfed class is no real excuse to not change something about them if there is a need to do so. But I believe I never really mentioned anything about that being a reason to not change anything anymore.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Yes. People listen up, being a perma is perfectly balanced, you only need to choose your armor enchant specifically for them! (tbh, even with this enchant the problem would still be a problem)
Although I give you permas one thing, it's hilarious how you try to defend it with stupid arguments like this one.
I've not followed this thread but I can already see why it says "Former" community moderator under todesfaelle. He tries to disguise his bad attitude in some heavy sarcasm, but it's blatantly obvious that he's a ******.
You are so wrong adernath,
Todesfaelle has always been seeking new ways to play TR. He is like a sword that sharpens as it cuts. For you to say he is afraid of trying new things after he tells you he loves to play and test every class just shows your failed attempts at trying to troll him.
I never cried for a nerf for any class. Instead, I would rather learn ways to defeat them. With that said, EVERY CLASS HAS THE ABILITY TO KILL ANOTHER. (If you yourself can adapt and learn how to not just play but own your character)
If you have to cry for a nerf, you don't need to be playing this game.
(END OF STORY)
P.S. I am not a perma stealth. Go watch the perm stealth videos to see a real one.
I am defending the game from people like you that want an (easy) button to all their troubles.
People like you that search online for console cheats and codes instead of beating the game with your own brain power.
We can all find a reason to cry here or a challenge to overcome here. Crying gets babies what they want until they are of age. How old are you?
Enough said...
Whiners think any TR that uses stealth is a perma stealth.... (repeat this phrase 10 times fast)
no cw ever put money in this game.
tr,gwf willl always be more viable then cw no matter which nerf.
Hi, Adernath. Thank you for your opinion! But you may wish to contribute with some facts next time.
FYI I dont have much problems finding TRs. The entire discussion was about the permanent aspect of these stealth builds. In this regard I find it gives too much advantage for a few disadvantages of the TR.
I consider comments like this with no reasoning as trolling per excellence. No productive discussion whatsoever.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Not sure what I did to get you worked up, but relax. You are hurting my feelings. Hehe. But anyway, if you have anything to contribute to the discussion please feel free to do so.
Problem is that at the highest levels...
- CW only dominate DCs (read, CW can kill DC after a 5-10 minute battle, in real match DC would get support way before they're dead)
- CW usually loses EACH other 1vs1, including with great GFs
- CW is relegated to support class because even if they are uberskilled&geared, it's not reliable to let them contest or try to kill mostly anything alone, too risky
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as PotB if you need to touch point
- no skill and intelligence will protect you from lame skills such as Shocking Execution critting you for dead from half HP (this is in the context where ALL other burst damage was killed by Tenacity...)
- 1vs1s in real premades are important, it's good if you can overpower the guy they send to contest with you reliably, although of course rotations and helping is just as important
Most importantly:
"Natural Predator" and "RPS" are pretty bad systems. They allow certain classes to play the hero and feel awesome, and others to play the cowardly support and die each time an adversary with similar skill and gear catches them.
It's bad to have encounter results based on class. The result should be solely determined by player skill, experience and gear.
they sure deseve it after carrying us all in pve.its time they get something back moochers.
ayn rand
lol wishful thinking, what might happen is actually the opposite, NERF! but if you meant buff on control/survivability sure, but dps? hell no!
So much crying, every single day...every single patch, about nearly every single class at 1 point and time.
Cryptic has proven they haven't a clue how PvP should be done, or how class's should be balanced, by way of getting completely and utterly destroyed by my guild in a premade vs the dev team. So they looked to the mass's. Unfortunately the mass's are generally low skilled, or new players, or players that "think" they have skill and give all sorts of ridiculous feedback. Generally consisting of nerf this, now lets nerf that.
The end game players wanted minor changes, because they knew the system was well built, it just needed a fiew tweaks. More maps, and a way to Q specifically for premade matches, is all we asked for.
But because of the overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums, they gave us this incredibly jacked up beyond all recognition matchmaking system, a ridiculous Tenacity stat that I highly doubt follows any normal logic of actual math, and the nerf bat on countless class's and abilities.
You can thank yourself, for ruining what was once a good PvP experience..all because you(in general), were too lazy to learn about other class's mechanics and abilities, and gear yourself properly before entering PvP.
5 more Days and 1/3 of the already dwindling population will be gone, all thanks to you
Cheers!
I'll bite. Show me a youtube or twitch link of any top CW in the world beating one of the top perma-TR in 1vs1 node battles.
I would like to see it so I can "adapt and learn how to not just play but own my character".
Or better yet, teach me. I'm giving you a chance to backup your statements.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)