Business's that fails to cater to the majority of their customers will not be in business for long.
That particular match meant little. The makers of an apache helicopter gunship would lose in a battle against helicopter gunship pilots. Makers of sniper rifles would lose against a special forces sniper team. Assembly line workers for the M1 Abrams battle tank would lose in a tank battle against a trained tank team ; etc, etc, etc.
If the majority population of PVP players were having this good PVP experience you speak of, there would not have been this (let me quote you) "... overwhelming ocean of constant tears flooding the forums..." that you complain of.
Not every player were willing or able to use the various duplicitous means and methods of over-gearing themselves that you ask for.
The first part(5 days) of your forecasting sentence is over-estimated by more than 16 %. This means the rest of your forecast (1/3) is unreliable.
Cheers indeed.
Agree to disagree
I've been here since the beginning and developed these opinions on my own from first hand experience in this game.
You misunderstand my point entirely however.
The makers of the .50Barret listen to the Snipers, the elite. Therefore giving them a product capable of being awesome.
Same goes for every other example you've given.
What they DONT do. Is listen to the private whose only bee in the army 2 months. See where I'm going here?
My point is Cryptic IS so bad at PvP, they don't understand how/why and therefore were unable to decipher through what was HAMSTER from the privates..and what was factual information that would elevate the level of play for everyone.
I will stand by my opinion(which is that of many experienced players), that the ONLY things we needed to continue to make a great game, and accommodate ALL players from the elite, to the brand new was this: More PvP maps;Diminishing Returns on CC encounters;and a system put in place to Q specifically for premade teams.
I'm not going to delve into why those 3 things were/are so important, as now everything in my opinion is so far gone its pointless to even have the conversation.
We/I, did my/our best encouraging Cryptic NOT to put these changes into effect, and they didn't listen. My assessment of "thousands of players" is just that..an assessment, but I most definitely bet I'm not far off at all.
I guarantee you they are nervous right now, or atleast they should be..because "E****O" is going live in 5 days. That little graph of theirs is going to take a nose-dive.
I hope they decide to turn things around and start fixing this game, but at the moment I feel its just too late. No one cares anymore, especially with the awesome mmo's that are right around the corner.
Edit: Not sure what you meant by 16% over estimated? I for one come 3/30 will be adventuring with thousands of other players in a new distant land
This in particular is what makes me shrug off pretty much everything you say btw.
Not every player were willing or able to use the various duplicitous means and methods of over-gearing themselves that you ask for.
Myself, and many others..have never duped anything in this game, nor acquired our gear through means of real life $$, or exploiting. My point is inexperienced or bad or both, players..joining matches at lvl 60 with a Gear Score of 7k, and wanting to rage when they get destroyed the minute they step off the campfire.
This..unfortunately was a large majority of our PvP population.
On a side note to further explain this: Just by questing, and equipping properly the gear you receive while questing, and careful inspection of the AH and very..very cheap items that are sold..any person, brand new to the game...should absolutely be in the 10k+ GS range the second they hit lvl 60. I have videos of my TR dominating all but the very best in this game with a GS of around 11k, using lesser and a couple rank 7's, rest 5's. I would post videos for you but our special ed "Ishall not mention his name", destroyed our fun of posting videos. Point here is even before all this new pvp HAMSTER, skill absolutely mattered.
0
adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I agree with your point that dev's should listen to experenced players. But besides from the fact that not every experienced player is also a good advisor, I find it strange if some people who claim they are 'experienced' say something like: "the dev's dont have a clue about PvP and everything was fine as the game came out." So the dev's just hit a jackpot by randomly implementing the right feats even if they have no clue? that is highly unlikely. It is more likely that they 1. have a clue and 2. there were (naturally) certain imbalances which turn out only by more practice.
Now whenever someone asking about an imbalance there is at least someone saying 'L2P' or 'the l33ts adapt'. Ok, so 'adapt' means for example when fighting a GWFs as CW to run away? Sure, by doing this I 'adapt' to the situation. But many people (including me) dont find this 'adaption' right. We expect that there are generally fair chances in 1vs1 situations regardless of what class you play - if you have comparable gear. If you play more than one class in PvP like me than you know that things are very different.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
I agree with your point that dev's should listen to experenced players. But besides from the fact that not every experienced player is also a good advisor, I find it strange if some people who claim they are 'experienced' say something like: "the dev's dont have a clue about PvP and everything was fine as the game came out." So the dev's just hit a jackpot by randomly implementing the right feats even if they have no clue? that is highly unlikely. It is more likely that they 1. have a clue and 2. there were (naturally) certain imbalances which turn out only by more practice.
Now whenever someone asking about an imbalance there is at least someone saying 'L2P' or 'the l33ts adapt'. Ok, so 'adapt' means for example when fighting a GWFs as CW to run away? Sure, by doing this I 'adapt' to the situation. But many people (including me) dont find this 'adaption' right. We expect that there are generally fair chances in 1vs1 situations regardless of what class you play - if you have comparable gear. If you play more than one class in PvP like me than you know that things are very different.
The problem with buffing CWs 1v1 is that they are already more powerful in group battles. It's true, in my opinion, that CWs are under powered against every class except the CW in 1v1 situations, but I believe that is because a CW, like a DC, is a support class. The way I see it, a CW should be coupled with a GWF/GF so that the CW can hold the enemy still and slow them while the GWF/GF kills them quickly. To be clear, I'm talking about 2v2 situations. The CW aids in focusing down other players faster, to turn a 2v2 fight into a 2v1 fight.
In reply to todesfaelle earlier, where you said the reason the CWs lose to rogues 1v1 is because the rogues have stealth which counters CWs ability to keep enemies at range. The problem is that all of the melee classes have a similar natural counter to the CWs. Stealth for a CW can be categorized as CC immunity, Damage immunity, and a gap closer. The other melee classes have both, and sometimes all three of these. GWFs can sprint/rush you, and pop unstoppable to avoid CC. GFs can block all your CCs and just walk towards you slowly. Having all 3 melee classes practically immune to all of the CWs defenses renders the CW the most underpowered class in 1v1 PVP.
That being said, this thread has quickly devolved from a discussion about perma stealth rogues to CWs fighting any class 1v1 (TRs seem to be the hardest for them) From reading the posts, is the real problem that rogues have perma stealth, or is the problem that CWs are underpowered. I don't recall any other specific examples of another class having this large of a disadvantage against rogues in stealth.
The problem with buffing CWs 1v1 is that they are already more powerful in group battles.
I agree and disagree with your point. I think DCs and GWFs are just as powerful if not more in group battles, though CW will take on ANY class in that role.
You stated CW is in a support role and again I agree. The problem is with the current PVP meta, 1 vs 1 node battles primarily determine who wins. We are all stuck in this 5 vs 5 small map domination PVP game and thus, are limited in the scope of what a "support" role is.
Now, if we were to CHANGE the entire PVP game and make it say, 20 vs 20. EVERY SINGLE PVP GAME is now 20 vs 20 such as gaunt.
Then the CW's "support" role is not so bad anymore. However, in the current pvp settings, it is laughable the class imbalance and how an elite GWF and TRs are basically unkillable 1vs1 against the lesser classes even if faced with other elite players.
In reply to todesfaelle earlier, where you said the reason the CWs lose to rogues 1v1 is because the rogues have stealth which counters CWs ability to keep enemies at range. The problem is that all of the melee classes have a similar natural counter to the CWs. Stealth for a CW can be categorized as CC immunity, Damage immunity, and a gap closer. The other melee classes have both, and sometimes all three of these. GWFs can sprint/rush you, and pop unstoppable to avoid CC. GFs can block all your CCs and just walk towards you slowly. Having all 3 melee classes practically immune to all of the CWs defenses renders the CW the most underpowered class in 1v1 PVP.
That being said, this thread has quickly devolved from a discussion about perma stealth rogues to CWs fighting any class 1v1 (TRs seem to be the hardest for them) From reading the posts, is the real problem that rogues have perma stealth, or is the problem that CWs are underpowered. I don't recall any other specific examples of another class having this large of a disadvantage against rogues in stealth.
GWFs have unstoppable, TRs have permastealth and impossible to catch......what does the CW have? 3 teleports?
I agree with your point that dev's should listen to experenced players. But besides from the fact that not every experienced player is also a good advisor, I find it strange if some people who claim they are 'experienced' say something like: "the dev's dont have a clue about PvP and everything was fine as the game came out." So the dev's just hit a jackpot by randomly implementing the right feats even if they have no clue? that is highly unlikely. It is more likely that they 1. have a clue and 2. there were (naturally) certain imbalances which turn out only by more practice.
Now whenever someone asking about an imbalance there is at least someone saying 'L2P' or 'the l33ts adapt'. Ok, so 'adapt' means for example when fighting a GWFs as CW to run away? Sure, by doing this I 'adapt' to the situation. But many people (including me) dont find this 'adaption' right. We expect that there are generally fair chances in 1vs1 situations regardless of what class you play - if you have comparable gear. If you play more than one class in PvP like me than you know that things are very different.
They built a great game. Tis the reason I've been playing so long. However, they(in my opinion) do NOT, know how to turn the great combat they did have, into a great PvP experience. They had an excellent foot in the door...and they ruined it.
See you and I will probably never agree on this, and that's fine. Reason is because I am old school. When you use the words "Fair", and "PvP" in the same sentence I know that you are a new school PvP player. Again, totally fine. Just two very, very different mentalities. To be very good and be able to fight any class 1 vs 1, I believe it requires great skill(not saying I have that). PvP IS hard, its absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to balance it perfectly for everyones playstyles. The forums in every single game are always going to be flooded with posts identical to what you just said. "This isn't fair". etc etc.
I can think of 3 CW's right off the bat that still play this game that can absolutely contend a node 1 vs 1 with a GWF.
Some people will say. "Ok Munkey...THREE people in the entire game that play CW can fight against the CW? Really dude? C'mon how can you not see how CW's need a buff and GWF's need a nerf"? My answer to that is the same. PvP is hard. Its not fair. Learn to adapt the best that you can with the situation at hand, and you will either get better at PvP, or you wont..and you'll quit. Because its not "fair".
What I can say, is had the Devs left PvP alone the way it was. Added those 3 simple things myself, and hundreds of other people mentioned. PvP would be thriving right now, and everyone....from the elite to the new, would be having a better time in PvP, and NOT waiting in hour long Q's in a system that is so flawed I don't think Cryptic can even explain to us what is happening.
you therefore know to what I refer when I mention duplicity. To pretend otherwise is also disingenuous.
To brag that playing an overpowered class you were able to accomplish much with less is underwhelming. The class, not the skill, was responsible for your success. If you note, said class continues to be the hot topic here.
I can think of 3 CW's right off the bat that still play this game that can absolutely contend a node 1 vs 1 with a GWF.
Against an elite GWF? I don't care if the 3 CW's you are thinking are the top 3 most skilled in the server. I don't care if the CW has 17k gs and emblem artifact. Put all the strings and handicaps around this proposed matchup all you want in your argument's favor.
Against an elite GWF? I don't care if the 3 CW's you are thinking are the top 3 most skilled in the server. I don't care if the CW has 17k gs and emblem artifact. Put all the strings and handicaps around this proposed matchup all you want in your argument's favor.
Just show me the video of this or I call BS.
Yeah, seriously. There's only so much a CW can do against a GWF.
First of all, if they're in unstoppable, you can't CC them. If you're damaging them- they're going to be in unstoppable most of the time.
That leaves you with dodges. Dodge 3-4 times and then you're lunchmeat for the prone machine GWF.
Meaning basically you can contend a node for about 5 seconds as a CW against a GWF.
It's not a matter of being good or skill, there really just is not that much available for a CW defensively. If there was some super hard to hit combo that only the very best could pull off that gives a CW some breathing room- then yeah, you can talk about skill.
The only good CC we have is the shard combo, but even assuming you nail it when they just come off unstoppable, it's not going to buy much time.
As it stands, CW either CCs or they die, and most classes have ways around CC, so CWs usually die.
Agreed. It's just not the same, having to rely on PoB which was previously the worst skill next to Blitz. Now there's just not much to choose from, really. Beggars can't be choosers.
You know, sometimes I think it'd be better if the devs made some sort of testing team comprised of hardcore players from the live server for both PVP and PVE, who can provide them with the feedback they need. The devs clearly haven't had the chance to play their game as much as their own players, so feedback from a trusted, experienced, and screened group of Neverwinter Testers would be valuable; just so that they have a better view of what the base line for balance should look like. They get the feedback of the general population in the forums anyway, and lots of it. What they need are feedback from players with extensive experience with the game. The game would walk towards a better path if they can do something like that.
But of course that might be too much work since there will be loads of applicants.
there are no respectable pvp players in this game just trolls who care abouth nothing but getting more buffs.i seen so many times "best" pvp players say nerf this and that only to make them more viable.
name one good pvp player i will post his trolling vid or post
devs should do their jobs.
0
adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
When you use the words "Fair", and "PvP" in the same sentence I know that you are a new school PvP player. Again, totally fine. Just two very, very different mentalities. To be very good and be able to fight any class 1 vs 1, I believe it requires great skill(not saying I have that). PvP IS hard, its absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to balance it perfectly for everyones playstyles. The forums in every single game are always going to be flooded with posts identical to what you just said. "This isn't fair". etc etc.
Sorry for getting offtopic. I played very long time in Wotlk in PvP. I really like NW, but lets be honest: you can not compare wotlk pvp with pvp here, where you just have 3-4 abilities. In WoW you have ~15-20 different spells/macros and if you played mage also a pet to control. Now if I used a word like 'fair' why should this classify me as being a new PvP player please? I could have used 'balanced' instead, if that sounds better to you.
FYI I also do not have much problems in finding TRs. Still I am against permanent stealth. At some point a TR has to be a bit more clever instead of running around the point in 'fast mode' and throwing knifes.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Sorry for getting offtopic. I played very long time in Wotlk in PvP. I really like NW, but lets be honest: you can not compare wotlk pvp with pvp here, where you just have 3-4 abilities. In WoW you have ~15-20 different spells/macros and if you played mage also a pet to control. Now if I used a word like 'fair' why should this classify me as being a new PvP player please? I could have used 'balanced' instead, if that sounds better to you.
FYI I also do not have much problems in finding TRs. Still I am against permanent stealth. At some point a TR has to be a bit more clever instead of running around the point in 'fast mode' and throwing knifes.
Thats why we will always disagree. Your pvp experience is that of WoW. Again..thats fine, but is not even close to old school PvP. 20 buttons with 500 macros in a game where dieing costs you nothing is what us old school PvP'rs call "carebear". UO and EQ 1 is where I was bathed in blood and earned my ruthless attitude towards how "I" feel PvP should be, and many others are just like me. But.again, its just my opinion.
Against an elite GWF? I don't care if the 3 CW's you are thinking are the top 3 most skilled in the server. I don't care if the CW has 17k gs and emblem artifact. Put all the strings and handicaps around this proposed matchup all you want in your argument's favor.
Just show me the video of this or I call BS.
You can call it BS, or Frank, or Johny, or tigole bitties. Just because you are not able to do it, doesnt mean others cant. Thats a failures mentality.
Seeings how I cant name anyone because of these ridiculous forum rules, or post videos anymore I wont be doing that. But 2 are in my guild, and they have plenty of videos showing it. There "was" quite a fiew more that I could name, but I dont believe they play anymore.
You can call it BS, or Frank, or Johny, or tigole bitties. Just because you are not able to do it, doesnt mean others cant. Thats a failures mentality.
Seeings how I cant name anyone because of these ridiculous forum rules, or post videos anymore I wont be doing that. But 2 are in my guild, and they have plenty of videos showing it. There "was" quite a fiew more that I could name, but I dont believe they play anymore.
No really. I want to learn. As people say, "L2P". Well then I want to learn how to play.
May I see a link please? Post it on reddit then.
Or are you going to back out again because you know your claim is ludacris and no elite CW can beat an elite GWF 1vs1.
I know your claim is complete BS. You know it. Go ahead, send me a link of a video of Stox getting owned by a CW 1vs1. Even if you prove me wrong and do have that video, I'd gladly watch it and L2P.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
With 2 similarly geared CWs, you can pretty much prone GWF to death before he kills any of you.
A good team however will rotate someone to help the GWF all time, or pop an emblem, or more commonly the GWF will just sprint away when at 20% HP for a pot while some perma, DC or whatever takes his place for 10 secs.
Then GWF returns at full HP, cause you won't be able to stop his sprint in unstoppable 90% of the times.
But if the GWF/team are dumb enough and stay on node without switching/supporting the GWF, then yup, the CWs should get a free kill.
GG, you just killed a pro GWF 2vs1.
You should feel proud as a CW and maybe make a self-congratulatory post in the forums together with proof this actually happened.
As it stands, CW either CCs or they die, and most classes have ways around CC, so CWs usually die.
Hold on there hamlet, did munkey mention that he can name 3 CWs off the top of his head that can go 1vs1 against top GWF on node control battle?
I'm just waiting for ANY sort of proof such as a video link on reddit. Hopefully, we can both learn to play together because apparently, one CW can go toe to toe with one GWF.
Hold on there hamlet, did munkey mention that he can name 3 CWs off the top of his head that can go 1vs1 against top GWF on node control battle?
I'm just waiting for ANY sort of proof such as a video link on reddit. Hopefully, we can both learn to play together because apparently, one CW can go toe to toe with one GWF.
Alt, Trace, Meldanen, Stox, Synergy, Llantis.
All have beaten the top GWFs at point or another.
I can literally feel the anger coming through your words brosammwich. Maybe you should play another class or something if it really makes you this upset.
Just named 6. If i stroll through my friends list..Graveyard of old friends rather I can find probably 3 or 4 more..
Your getting mad that a Cloth wearing caster, has difficulty fighting a heavy plate wearing melee DPS in an extremely small area. Like...are you serious?.
Lets increase CW's over-all damage by 50%, and make their CC abilities go through Unstoppable. I wonder if you'd be happy then?:rolleyes:
I can literally feel the anger coming through your words brosammwich. Maybe you should play another class or something if it really makes you this upset.
Just named 6. If i stroll through my friends list..Graveyard of old friends rather I can find probably 3 or 4 more..
Your getting mad that a Cloth wearing caster, has difficulty fighting a heavy plate wearing melee DPS in an extremely small area. Like...are you serious?.
Lets increase CW's over-all damage by 50%, and make their CC abilities go through Unstoppable. I wonder if you'd be happy then?:rolleyes:
Make the CC go through ITC too and then we'd be talkin.
Interesting how a topic about rogues turned into a GWF vs CW prick waving HAMSTER fight.
I really know why is so much to discuss about the mechanics of this game cause to me it seems the shallowest gameplay i ever encountered in an MMO. But ofc maybe i'm not "old school" enough, whatever that means, from what i read labeling yourself as such just adds some extra inches to your weapon in the fight mentioned above. Or maybe there's value to be taken out of games which were build with the tools and complexity of the equivalent of making fire with two sticks.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Some clarifications about what can actually is still viewable online...
- Meldanen beat a GWF with lower gear than himself, a few times. How many times? Dunno, maybe 6/12. That GWF adjusted in the late games and I think Meld didn't manage another kill to the end.
More importantly, this was BEFORE Tenacity, and repel worked.
GWF with inferior gear still won by far overall, even though what Meld did was quite amazing.
- stox procced Steamroller's SF. This was the extent of what a BiS CW could do, and it took some lucky crits. GWF won, even though CW was amazing in his performance.
- Trace beat SM GWFs, way cool back in the days. Trace, like all other CWs, died against BiS Tene SM GWFs of the day. I'd wager Clovis vs Trace would end up with Clovis winning all fights.
- AllT, Sobek might be the only 2 CWs in the game that have a decent chance at killing a GWF, because of their chance to resist prones, BiS gear and large quantities of skill&experience. From what I heard, it would still be extremely difficult for them to do this, and it might need to kite the GWF all around the map. I am unsure if they can achieve 50% kill rate on point vs BiS GWFs like Pretty Woman or PRLHydra, but I'd say almost impossible.
- lantiss doesn't play any longer I think. What was back in the days of SM GWF is no more.
I can literally feel the anger coming through your words brosammwich. Maybe you should play another class or something if it really makes you this upset.
Just named 6. If i stroll through my friends list..Graveyard of old friends rather I can find probably 3 or 4 more..
Your getting mad that a Cloth wearing caster, has difficulty fighting a heavy plate wearing melee DPS in an extremely small area. Like...are you serious?.
Lets increase CW's over-all damage by 50%, and make their CC abilities go through Unstoppable. I wonder if you'd be happy then?:rolleyes:
I think the glaring omission here is sobek, but then there are plenty more like inna and kaos.
I can literally feel the anger coming through your words brosammwich. Maybe you should play another class or something if it really makes you this upset.
Just named 6. If i stroll through my friends list..Graveyard of old friends rather I can find probably 3 or 4 more..
Your getting mad that a Cloth wearing caster, has difficulty fighting a heavy plate wearing melee DPS in an extremely small area. Like...are you serious?.
Lets increase CW's over-all damage by 50%, and make their CC abilities go through Unstoppable. I wonder if you'd be happy then?:rolleyes:
Lantis played in a different meta, back when tenebrous was still all the rage.
The rest of your claims aren't valid. Show me them beating up a top GWF. Don't just say they beat some 10k GWF. Sure if they beat an elite GWF in 1 out of 100 battles during garbage time you COULD say they beat them at some point.
I am getting mad at the imbalance in PVP classes. What are you even arguing about cloth wearers? Magic penetrates metal, does that mean CWs should one-hit every single person? Don't go that route you are only diluting the topic with nonsensical tangents. This is a videogame. Of course there is some realism involved but not to that extent.
And I am merely saying to let CWs be able to beat GWFs and perma-TRs 35% of the time on 1vs1 node battles. But I guess thats too much to ask now is it?
PS: I love the fact that you didn't mention the names of the top-GWF.
And I am merely saying to let CWs be able to beat GWFs and perma-TRs 35% of the time on 1vs1 node battles. But I guess thats too much to ask now is it?
as a non-perma rogue, i personally wouldn't mind if knockbacks like repel went through immunities and that might be what wizards need to increase their survival rate. rogues just need an immunity to get past the stun/prone spam and we have our own teleport when necessary.
as a non-perma rogue, i personally wouldn't mind if knockbacks like repel went through immunities and that might be what wizards need to increase their survival rate. rogues just need an immunity to get past the stun/prone spam and we have our own teleport when necessary.
I think the proposed stealth changes are also a step in the right direction
how many top tr and gwf have full pvp toon halfling?
how many cw have full pvp halfling?maybe 3 of that best 6 you mentioned
u can run thru city all day long and will never see full con halfling cw
0
adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Thats why we will always disagree. Your pvp experience is that of WoW. Again..thats fine, but is not even close to old school PvP. 20 buttons with 500 macros in a game where dieing costs you nothing is what us old school PvP'rs call "carebear". UO and EQ 1 is where I was bathed in blood and earned my ruthless attitude towards how "I" feel PvP should be, and many others are just like me. But.again, its just my opinion.
What a pointless comment. As if long years experience in WoW PvP doesnt count if you didnt have played UO or EQ1. You are telling me that 20 buttons with 500 macros are 'carebear'? Get real. You can in principle set all your buttons on your keyboard to some macros if you need that.
Just look at how many people are playing WoW PvP and still playing in comparison to UO or EQ1. Only by these numbers it is enough to tell everything about the PvP capabilities of these games. And just for your info, I've made my first PvP experience as Doom 1 came out. In fact, for me old school PvP-ers are 3D shooter gamers. So does this qualify me as the big bad guy telling the young folks here how to PvP?
/offtopic out
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
WoW PvP is overall the best PvP that you can find in an MMO as of now, although the action combat here is better. Some people just think themselves hardcore cause they played extensively old and obsolete games.
These people would insult WoW PvPers with "carebear" and so on. Yup, WoW PvP is ubernoobish and stuff, everybody is a gladiator and everybody is a pro cause the game allows it. There's no competition at all and people float on rosy thoughts of world peace and flower power to the 2000+ brackets.
To be honest I don't feel like GWF are OP anymore compared to those perma TRs we see absolutely everywhere like a plague. Stealth + Duelist Flurry + Itc with a good rotation is absolutely OP. That's like if a character was made especially to have a single finality in the game; to hold a point in a PvP match, it's kind of HAMSTER.
To be honest I don't feel like GWF are OP anymore compared to those perma TRs we see absolutely everywhere like a plague. Stealth + Duelist Flurry + Itc with a good rotation is absolutely OP. That's like if a character was made especially to have a single finality in the game; to hold a point in a PvP match, it's kind of HAMSTER.
I can take skill imbalance or even gear imbalance because you eventually can overcome it.
Class imbalance is another thing unfortunately and a nerf is the only solution or change the PVP-meta to lessen 1 vs 1
I can take skill imbalance or even gear imbalance because you eventually can overcome it.
Class imbalance is another thing unfortunately and a nerf is the only solution or change the PVP-meta to lessen 1 vs 1
Sorry but you're wrong. Nerf is FAR from the solution for a class that cant do any good in pve and that have to run away in pvp as soon as someone see them... If something have to be done is a complete class rework to make it balanced in pvp and in pve.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Comments
Agree to disagree
I've been here since the beginning and developed these opinions on my own from first hand experience in this game.
You misunderstand my point entirely however.
The makers of the .50Barret listen to the Snipers, the elite. Therefore giving them a product capable of being awesome.
Same goes for every other example you've given.
What they DONT do. Is listen to the private whose only bee in the army 2 months. See where I'm going here?
My point is Cryptic IS so bad at PvP, they don't understand how/why and therefore were unable to decipher through what was HAMSTER from the privates..and what was factual information that would elevate the level of play for everyone.
I will stand by my opinion(which is that of many experienced players), that the ONLY things we needed to continue to make a great game, and accommodate ALL players from the elite, to the brand new was this: More PvP maps;Diminishing Returns on CC encounters;and a system put in place to Q specifically for premade teams.
I'm not going to delve into why those 3 things were/are so important, as now everything in my opinion is so far gone its pointless to even have the conversation.
We/I, did my/our best encouraging Cryptic NOT to put these changes into effect, and they didn't listen. My assessment of "thousands of players" is just that..an assessment, but I most definitely bet I'm not far off at all.
I guarantee you they are nervous right now, or atleast they should be..because "E****O" is going live in 5 days. That little graph of theirs is going to take a nose-dive.
I hope they decide to turn things around and start fixing this game, but at the moment I feel its just too late. No one cares anymore, especially with the awesome mmo's that are right around the corner.
Edit: Not sure what you meant by 16% over estimated? I for one come 3/30 will be adventuring with thousands of other players in a new distant land
This in particular is what makes me shrug off pretty much everything you say btw.
Myself, and many others..have never duped anything in this game, nor acquired our gear through means of real life $$, or exploiting. My point is inexperienced or bad or both, players..joining matches at lvl 60 with a Gear Score of 7k, and wanting to rage when they get destroyed the minute they step off the campfire.
This..unfortunately was a large majority of our PvP population.
On a side note to further explain this: Just by questing, and equipping properly the gear you receive while questing, and careful inspection of the AH and very..very cheap items that are sold..any person, brand new to the game...should absolutely be in the 10k+ GS range the second they hit lvl 60. I have videos of my TR dominating all but the very best in this game with a GS of around 11k, using lesser and a couple rank 7's, rest 5's. I would post videos for you but our special ed "Ishall not mention his name", destroyed our fun of posting videos. Point here is even before all this new pvp HAMSTER, skill absolutely mattered.
I agree with your point that dev's should listen to experenced players. But besides from the fact that not every experienced player is also a good advisor, I find it strange if some people who claim they are 'experienced' say something like: "the dev's dont have a clue about PvP and everything was fine as the game came out." So the dev's just hit a jackpot by randomly implementing the right feats even if they have no clue? that is highly unlikely. It is more likely that they 1. have a clue and 2. there were (naturally) certain imbalances which turn out only by more practice.
Now whenever someone asking about an imbalance there is at least someone saying 'L2P' or 'the l33ts adapt'. Ok, so 'adapt' means for example when fighting a GWFs as CW to run away? Sure, by doing this I 'adapt' to the situation. But many people (including me) dont find this 'adaption' right. We expect that there are generally fair chances in 1vs1 situations regardless of what class you play - if you have comparable gear. If you play more than one class in PvP like me than you know that things are very different.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
The problem with buffing CWs 1v1 is that they are already more powerful in group battles. It's true, in my opinion, that CWs are under powered against every class except the CW in 1v1 situations, but I believe that is because a CW, like a DC, is a support class. The way I see it, a CW should be coupled with a GWF/GF so that the CW can hold the enemy still and slow them while the GWF/GF kills them quickly. To be clear, I'm talking about 2v2 situations. The CW aids in focusing down other players faster, to turn a 2v2 fight into a 2v1 fight.
That being said, this thread has quickly devolved from a discussion about perma stealth rogues to CWs fighting any class 1v1 (TRs seem to be the hardest for them) From reading the posts, is the real problem that rogues have perma stealth, or is the problem that CWs are underpowered. I don't recall any other specific examples of another class having this large of a disadvantage against rogues in stealth.
I agree and disagree with your point. I think DCs and GWFs are just as powerful if not more in group battles, though CW will take on ANY class in that role.
You stated CW is in a support role and again I agree. The problem is with the current PVP meta, 1 vs 1 node battles primarily determine who wins. We are all stuck in this 5 vs 5 small map domination PVP game and thus, are limited in the scope of what a "support" role is.
Now, if we were to CHANGE the entire PVP game and make it say, 20 vs 20. EVERY SINGLE PVP GAME is now 20 vs 20 such as gaunt.
Then the CW's "support" role is not so bad anymore. However, in the current pvp settings, it is laughable the class imbalance and how an elite GWF and TRs are basically unkillable 1vs1 against the lesser classes even if faced with other elite players.
GWFs have unstoppable, TRs have permastealth and impossible to catch......what does the CW have? 3 teleports?
They built a great game. Tis the reason I've been playing so long. However, they(in my opinion) do NOT, know how to turn the great combat they did have, into a great PvP experience. They had an excellent foot in the door...and they ruined it.
See you and I will probably never agree on this, and that's fine. Reason is because I am old school. When you use the words "Fair", and "PvP" in the same sentence I know that you are a new school PvP player. Again, totally fine. Just two very, very different mentalities. To be very good and be able to fight any class 1 vs 1, I believe it requires great skill(not saying I have that). PvP IS hard, its absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to balance it perfectly for everyones playstyles. The forums in every single game are always going to be flooded with posts identical to what you just said. "This isn't fair". etc etc.
I can think of 3 CW's right off the bat that still play this game that can absolutely contend a node 1 vs 1 with a GWF.
Some people will say. "Ok Munkey...THREE people in the entire game that play CW can fight against the CW? Really dude? C'mon how can you not see how CW's need a buff and GWF's need a nerf"? My answer to that is the same. PvP is hard. Its not fair. Learn to adapt the best that you can with the situation at hand, and you will either get better at PvP, or you wont..and you'll quit. Because its not "fair".
What I can say, is had the Devs left PvP alone the way it was. Added those 3 simple things myself, and hundreds of other people mentioned. PvP would be thriving right now, and everyone....from the elite to the new, would be having a better time in PvP, and NOT waiting in hour long Q's in a system that is so flawed I don't think Cryptic can even explain to us what is happening.
The time between now and then is 6 days; not 5 days. Your estimate was off by 16+ %.
Even if all your recommendations were followed, your present plan would be no different; you would have still left. Your argument is disingenuous.
you therefore know to what I refer when I mention duplicity. To pretend otherwise is also disingenuous.
To brag that playing an overpowered class you were able to accomplish much with less is underwhelming. The class, not the skill, was responsible for your success. If you note, said class continues to be the hot topic here.
Against an elite GWF? I don't care if the 3 CW's you are thinking are the top 3 most skilled in the server. I don't care if the CW has 17k gs and emblem artifact. Put all the strings and handicaps around this proposed matchup all you want in your argument's favor.
Just show me the video of this or I call BS.
Yeah, seriously. There's only so much a CW can do against a GWF.
First of all, if they're in unstoppable, you can't CC them. If you're damaging them- they're going to be in unstoppable most of the time.
That leaves you with dodges. Dodge 3-4 times and then you're lunchmeat for the prone machine GWF.
Meaning basically you can contend a node for about 5 seconds as a CW against a GWF.
It's not a matter of being good or skill, there really just is not that much available for a CW defensively. If there was some super hard to hit combo that only the very best could pull off that gives a CW some breathing room- then yeah, you can talk about skill.
The only good CC we have is the shard combo, but even assuming you nail it when they just come off unstoppable, it's not going to buy much time.
As it stands, CW either CCs or they die, and most classes have ways around CC, so CWs usually die.
there are no respectable pvp players in this game just trolls who care abouth nothing but getting more buffs.i seen so many times "best" pvp players say nerf this and that only to make them more viable.
name one good pvp player i will post his trolling vid or post
devs should do their jobs.
FYI I also do not have much problems in finding TRs. Still I am against permanent stealth. At some point a TR has to be a bit more clever instead of running around the point in 'fast mode' and throwing knifes.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Thats why we will always disagree. Your pvp experience is that of WoW. Again..thats fine, but is not even close to old school PvP. 20 buttons with 500 macros in a game where dieing costs you nothing is what us old school PvP'rs call "carebear". UO and EQ 1 is where I was bathed in blood and earned my ruthless attitude towards how "I" feel PvP should be, and many others are just like me. But.again, its just my opinion.
You can call it BS, or Frank, or Johny, or tigole bitties. Just because you are not able to do it, doesnt mean others cant. Thats a failures mentality.
Seeings how I cant name anyone because of these ridiculous forum rules, or post videos anymore I wont be doing that. But 2 are in my guild, and they have plenty of videos showing it. There "was" quite a fiew more that I could name, but I dont believe they play anymore.
No really. I want to learn. As people say, "L2P". Well then I want to learn how to play.
May I see a link please? Post it on reddit then.
Or are you going to back out again because you know your claim is ludacris and no elite CW can beat an elite GWF 1vs1.
I know your claim is complete BS. You know it. Go ahead, send me a link of a video of Stox getting owned by a CW 1vs1. Even if you prove me wrong and do have that video, I'd gladly watch it and L2P.
A good team however will rotate someone to help the GWF all time, or pop an emblem, or more commonly the GWF will just sprint away when at 20% HP for a pot while some perma, DC or whatever takes his place for 10 secs.
Then GWF returns at full HP, cause you won't be able to stop his sprint in unstoppable 90% of the times.
But if the GWF/team are dumb enough and stay on node without switching/supporting the GWF, then yup, the CWs should get a free kill.
GG, you just killed a pro GWF 2vs1.
You should feel proud as a CW and maybe make a self-congratulatory post in the forums together with proof this actually happened.
Hold on there hamlet, did munkey mention that he can name 3 CWs off the top of his head that can go 1vs1 against top GWF on node control battle?
I'm just waiting for ANY sort of proof such as a video link on reddit. Hopefully, we can both learn to play together because apparently, one CW can go toe to toe with one GWF.
Alt, Trace, Meldanen, Stox, Synergy, Llantis.
All have beaten the top GWFs at point or another.
I can literally feel the anger coming through your words brosammwich. Maybe you should play another class or something if it really makes you this upset.
Just named 6. If i stroll through my friends list..Graveyard of old friends rather I can find probably 3 or 4 more..
Your getting mad that a Cloth wearing caster, has difficulty fighting a heavy plate wearing melee DPS in an extremely small area. Like...are you serious?.
Lets increase CW's over-all damage by 50%, and make their CC abilities go through Unstoppable. I wonder if you'd be happy then?:rolleyes:
Make the CC go through ITC too and then we'd be talkin.
I really know why is so much to discuss about the mechanics of this game cause to me it seems the shallowest gameplay i ever encountered in an MMO. But ofc maybe i'm not "old school" enough, whatever that means, from what i read labeling yourself as such just adds some extra inches to your weapon in the fight mentioned above. Or maybe there's value to be taken out of games which were build with the tools and complexity of the equivalent of making fire with two sticks.
- Meldanen beat a GWF with lower gear than himself, a few times. How many times? Dunno, maybe 6/12. That GWF adjusted in the late games and I think Meld didn't manage another kill to the end.
More importantly, this was BEFORE Tenacity, and repel worked.
GWF with inferior gear still won by far overall, even though what Meld did was quite amazing.
- stox procced Steamroller's SF. This was the extent of what a BiS CW could do, and it took some lucky crits. GWF won, even though CW was amazing in his performance.
- Trace beat SM GWFs, way cool back in the days. Trace, like all other CWs, died against BiS Tene SM GWFs of the day. I'd wager Clovis vs Trace would end up with Clovis winning all fights.
- AllT, Sobek might be the only 2 CWs in the game that have a decent chance at killing a GWF, because of their chance to resist prones, BiS gear and large quantities of skill&experience. From what I heard, it would still be extremely difficult for them to do this, and it might need to kite the GWF all around the map. I am unsure if they can achieve 50% kill rate on point vs BiS GWFs like Pretty Woman or PRLHydra, but I'd say almost impossible.
- lantiss doesn't play any longer I think. What was back in the days of SM GWF is no more.
I think the glaring omission here is sobek, but then there are plenty more like inna and kaos.
Lantis played in a different meta, back when tenebrous was still all the rage.
The rest of your claims aren't valid. Show me them beating up a top GWF. Don't just say they beat some 10k GWF. Sure if they beat an elite GWF in 1 out of 100 battles during garbage time you COULD say they beat them at some point.
I am getting mad at the imbalance in PVP classes. What are you even arguing about cloth wearers? Magic penetrates metal, does that mean CWs should one-hit every single person? Don't go that route you are only diluting the topic with nonsensical tangents. This is a videogame. Of course there is some realism involved but not to that extent.
And I am merely saying to let CWs be able to beat GWFs and perma-TRs 35% of the time on 1vs1 node battles. But I guess thats too much to ask now is it?
PS: I love the fact that you didn't mention the names of the top-GWF.
as a non-perma rogue, i personally wouldn't mind if knockbacks like repel went through immunities and that might be what wizards need to increase their survival rate. rogues just need an immunity to get past the stun/prone spam and we have our own teleport when necessary.
I think the proposed stealth changes are also a step in the right direction
how many cw have full pvp halfling?maybe 3 of that best 6 you mentioned
u can run thru city all day long and will never see full con halfling cw
Just look at how many people are playing WoW PvP and still playing in comparison to UO or EQ1. Only by these numbers it is enough to tell everything about the PvP capabilities of these games. And just for your info, I've made my first PvP experience as Doom 1 came out. In fact, for me old school PvP-ers are 3D shooter gamers. So does this qualify me as the big bad guy telling the young folks here how to PvP?
/offtopic out
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
These people would insult WoW PvPers with "carebear" and so on. Yup, WoW PvP is ubernoobish and stuff, everybody is a gladiator and everybody is a pro cause the game allows it. There's no competition at all and people float on rosy thoughts of world peace and flower power to the 2000+ brackets.
I can take skill imbalance or even gear imbalance because you eventually can overcome it.
Class imbalance is another thing unfortunately and a nerf is the only solution or change the PVP-meta to lessen 1 vs 1
Sorry but you're wrong. Nerf is FAR from the solution for a class that cant do any good in pve and that have to run away in pvp as soon as someone see them... If something have to be done is a complete class rework to make it balanced in pvp and in pve.