Pro hint: TR can bug shard 100% by Impact Shotting CW out of stealth.
Not long ago I was testing stuff with one of the best PvP TRs in the game, full BiS everything. Tried shard, didn't work, he either bugged it out or I couldn't hit him (too much luck necessary, as he escaped Icy Rays/Entangle with ITC and then stealth, so shard pushes were more like random/intuition based).
In the end after losing quite a few matches, I switched to full DoT setup: RoEx2/Mastery, CoI, Chill Strike, Repel (or Icy Rays) and managed to kill him, but it took a very lucky Ice Knife crit.
All in all, NOT reliable, luck-based, and CW always on the run, always random jumping trying to conserve stamina and dodge that cursed flurry.
By the way, this was before Tenacity when I had High Vizier.
After Tenacity, I barely managed to score a kill on semiperma perfect vorpal r7s TR in maybe 5 tries (me at 9s+). I have SERIOUS doubts I can touch the PotB BiS/near BiS TRs. That skill is most annoying and my damage was nerfed a lot, while a TR can Shox me invariably in a 1 vs 1, cause he has time to build AP. I don't, cause I mostly don't have stuff to cast on.
Did I mention ITC looks like Soulforged? GG Cryptic thankssss. This means I'm LUCKY (not skilled) if I land an icy rays on a TR so I can open up for a shard. BTW, landing a shard doesn't mean that I won, cause my damage is MUCH lower compared to HV era, and guess what, TRs are tanky too
All in all, pure class balance, enjoy.
And don't forget to use Lantern, Steal Time and Icy Terrain they help A LOT
PS. Almost forgot, killed a (near?) BiS known TR 1vs1 in a random premade after tenacity as well, and was an on-point battle. Was a great accomplishment that i needed to trumpet to my party immediately, but I think he didn't take me seriously as we dueled a day or so ago and he wiped the floor with me :P Maybe he fell asleep during those oh-so-thrilling rotations lol.
removing permastealth is still not a solution, what will tr do againts a gwf after ? Stand there and wait to be knocked down to death, again i repeat, this is not a CW againt TR thread. And hopefully most tr will beat you as tr are the class that should be killing you the easiest.. but well who cares right?
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
removing permastealth is still not a solution, what will tr do againts a gwf after ? Stand there and wait to be knocked down to death, again i repeat, this is not a CW againt TR thread. And hopefully most tr will beat you as tr are the class that should be killing you the easiest.. but well who cares right?
Yes, sure it's not CWvsTR.
However you will find out that most complaints about classes in the forums come from players from some other class that inherently does poorly in that specific matchup. Some players I know don't even complain - they reroll the OP class lol. For example, many TRs that abandoned the class for HR now suddenly rediscovered it There are however complaints that are completely just L2P issues or gearing/spec problems. But from time to time, valid feedback is posted, sometimes including by players of that very same class that have a conscience revival of sorts or tried other class and felt how it is in those shoes.
Sadly you will find out that a majority of people complaining are CWs though. I think this is because most 1vs1 matchups are unfavorable to the class, even in no0b vs no0b "I have 20K hp PvE build" conditions. To beat a CW as a HR, TR, GWF or GF requires moderate to no skill involved. To beat these classes as a CW requires skill, luck, knowledge of the other class and very good timing, and it might still not be enough. Sure at one point, you gonna be content in the support role (such as I am now for example, I pretty much stopped caring about 1vs1 a while ago and do it just for practice&lulz), but it's hard to come to terms with your class being second worse at this in the game (we can usually kick some DC <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, hell yeah!).
Now permastealth. If you followed my posts, I don't think I ever asked for nerfing it or even changing it. All I posted is information about what happens in certain situations, from personal experience, with some humor on the side, as the situation kinda demands it
I personally think the ability is kinda ridiculous, but I'm at the point where I don't really bother to care. If the devs think the game should be about running randomly on a point hidden... and critting 20-30K shockings... and having stealth REFILLS... and speed increases... and class feat to decrease damage done to stealth... and skills that you launch and they just tick damage without any targeting necessary...
... in all honesty... this is NOT combat. This is a class following another, almost helpless class, while hidden or immune, dealing consistent damage.
A CW cannot chain-CC and kill someone without them being able to do anything. Maybe pre-patch, but not anymore now that CC is nerfed as well as damage.
A perma-rogue can and regularly kills someone without them being able to do anything.
"If the chain CC's hit a TR without Stealth, which is the next most squishy class after the CW, they get sent to spawn."
Not if the rogue is in ITC, which they always are if they're not in stealth.
The picture you're presenting would be fine if it were true. If it was only a matter of locating and CC'ing a rogue in stealth for a CW to be able to hurt him, then it would at least be a winnable fight.
With things like ITC though, it turns what would be an interesting disadvantage into a hopeless cause.
Oh but it's still possible even if you are not built for it. Let's face the facts. Tenacity only reduces the the duration of your CC by roughly 22% - 25% at top end profound PVP gear, and CW's are the ONLY class in PVP who pierces that by 66%. So in essence this "nerf" you are referring to can be pretty much negated simply by your WIS bonus, and if you want to make it better just slot Orb of Imposition, but he doesn't really have to, because the roughly 20% resistance to CC gets reduced to only 1/3rd of its real efficacy. Only the CW has this "unfair" advantage for PVP.
The CW class is the only class in PVP who can bring with them a possible 4 load out of CC encounters all associated with high DPS and top notch range, not to mention only the CW has an At-Will that acts like another CC which you all have regularly slotted; Ray of Frost. All your dailies have CC's associated with them, and the CW class is the fastest class to generate their dailies. Any and all squishies who are caught off guard by a CW with 3 or more CC's are sure to perish in one rotation. Only a CW can do something like this, only a CW has this unfair advantage of being able to nuke people from range and render them unable to react for significant amounts of time. Tell me that's not unfair, being able to do all that at the safety of an 80' range.
If you want a winnable fight against the antithesis of your class who has been given direct counters your given advantages; you think, you adapt. If ITC is active, do you keep blowing your encounters and roll your face on the keyboard like you usually do when you fight classes that do not have immunities? When a TR is chucking low DPS daggers at you, do you waste your dodges? When a TR is in Stealth trying to protect himself, do you run or do you actively seek the TR? Fighting the class that behaves like the direct counter of yours requires a LOT of thinking. This is PVP, you can't always have it easy, similar to how we TR's have a hard time fighting against GWF's or HR's regardless of build. Those are the natural counters to our class. One mistake and the spawn greets us, so we have to play seamlessly.
If you want to win against the perfect counter for your class, you think, not create a river of tears in the forums and ask the developers to cater to one player's incompetency to make things easier for him. Rogues who were previously not Stealth-based are now playing in a way that they dislike, because you people keep complaining. First was our DPS, which was rather impressive. And after it was nerfed, you cry about the next possible way we can adapt. Permastealth, or any high Stealth builds for that matter is NOT popular because TR's like it, it's popular because it's the only way to optimize oneself for PVP; all because of the many tears people have been crying since the beginning of open beta.
Yes, yes we know how weak are perma stealth TR 1 vs 2or3 and 1-2 down and maybe last one will kill you (maybe!)... TR is a bit OP at moment for this stupid kind of PVP not because he is OP class but because he can run around in stealth so much time without to do anything. In this time your team will gain POINTS and we will lose time 1, 2, 3 people in trying to find this TR. Because if we send there one pure DPS class he will just die slowly but he will die. How ? Just poison from stealth go far, after CD again, and again and yes he can do much more if this TR is sure that will kill the target but if he know that he will die - poison from above and go far. Busy ppl in all the time of match = win. Yes our TR do it, he respect from full DPS build where he kill easy 1 vs 2 because he is good TR and he go to perma stealth BECAUSE in this game we no need DPS we need to hold the point...
If you read careful you will understand why people here comment this but not that the TR is OP. We need to find perma stealth fast but not in next 2-3-5 min.
And yes I know now that ArP do not help much for PVP DPS and if I want to do something after last stupid path with this tenacity I need to go for full defensive stats as HR ofc. Nature build FTW...
You can report that in normal MMOs when developers add PVP defensive stat they add and PVP offensive stat - this is called BALANCE. Because at moment we have no choice but we are forced to go for max defensive stats if we want to be viable in PVP. This is so stupid ... please report it maybe someone will understand the situation.
Oh but it's still possible even if you are not built for it. Let's face the facts. Tenacity only reduces the the duration of your CC by roughly 22% - 25% at top end profound PVP gear, and CW's are the ONLY class in PVP who pierces that by 66%. So in essence this "nerf" you are referring to can be pretty much negated simply by your WIS bonus, and if you want to make it better just slot Orb of Imposition, but he doesn't really have to, because the roughly 20% resistance to CC gets reduced to only 1/3rd of its real efficacy. Only the CW has this "unfair" advantage for PVP.
The CW class is the only class in PVP who can bring with them a possible 4 load out of CC encounters all associated with high DPS and top notch range, not to mention only the CW has an At-Will that acts like another CC which you all have regularly slotted; Ray of Frost. All your dailies have CC's associated with them, and the CW class is the fastest class to generate their dailies. Any and all squishies who are caught off guard by a CW with 3 or more CC's are sure to perish in one rotation. Only a CW can do something like this, only a CW has this unfair advantage of being able to nuke people from range and render them unable to react for significant amounts of time. Tell me that's not unfair, being able to do all that at the safety of an 80' range.
If you want a winnable fight against the antithesis of your class who has been given direct counters your given advantages; you think, you adapt. If ITC is active, do you keep blowing your encounters and roll your face on the keyboard like you usually do when you fight classes that do not have immunities? When a TR is chucking low DPS daggers at you, do you waste your dodges? When a TR is in Stealth trying to protect himself, do you run or do you actively seek the TR? Fighting the class that behaves like the direct counter of yours requires a LOT of thinking. This is PVP, you can't always have it easy, similar to how we TR's have a hard time fighting against GWF's or HR's regardless of build. Those are the natural counters to our class. One mistake and the spawn greets us, so we have to play seamlessly.
If you want to win against the perfect counter for your class, you think, not create a river of tears in the forums and ask the developers to cater to one player's incompetency to make things easier for him. Rogues who were previously not Stealth-based are now playing in a way that they dislike, because you people keep complaining. First was our DPS, which was rather impressive. And after it was nerfed, you cry about the next possible way we can adapt. Permastealth, or any high Stealth builds for that matter is NOT popular because TR's like it, it's popular because it's the only way to optimize oneself for PVP; all because of the many tears people have been crying since the beginning of open beta.
+1
If anything, tenacity nerfs all cc, but at least cws get a buff to counter that. I speak from experience of playing EVERY class in pvp. Sure, everybody imo got hit with tenacity, but gwf got hit the least, followed by gf(who actually got buffed), then cw(cuz we got a control bonus now).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Oh but it's still possible even if you are not built for it. Let's face the facts. Tenacity only reduces the the duration of your CC by roughly 22% - 25% at top end profound PVP gear, and CW's are the ONLY class in PVP who pierces that by 66%. So in essence this "nerf" you are referring to can be pretty much negated simply by your WIS bonus, and if you want to make it better just slot Orb of Imposition, but he doesn't really have to, because the roughly 20% resistance to CC gets reduced to only 1/3rd of its real efficacy. Only the CW has this "unfair" advantage for PVP.
The CW class is the only class in PVP who can bring with them a possible 4 load out of CC encounters all associated with high DPS and top notch range, not to mention only the CW has an At-Will that acts like another CC which you all have regularly slotted; Ray of Frost. All your dailies have CC's associated with them, and the CW class is the fastest class to generate their dailies. Any and all squishies who are caught off guard by a CW with 3 or more CC's are sure to perish in one rotation. Only a CW can do something like this, only a CW has this unfair advantage of being able to nuke people from range and render them unable to react for significant amounts of time. Tell me that's not unfair, being able to do all that at the safety of an 80' range.
If you want a winnable fight against the antithesis of your class who has been given direct counters your given advantages; you think, you adapt. If ITC is active, do you keep blowing your encounters and roll your face on the keyboard like you usually do when you fight classes that do not have immunities? When a TR is chucking low DPS daggers at you, do you waste your dodges? When a TR is in Stealth trying to protect himself, do you run or do you actively seek the TR? Fighting the class that behaves like the direct counter of yours requires a LOT of thinking. This is PVP, you can't always have it easy, similar to how we TR's have a hard time fighting against GWF's or HR's regardless of build. Those are the natural counters to our class. One mistake and the spawn greets us, so we have to play seamlessly.
If you want to win against the perfect counter for your class, you think, not create a river of tears in the forums and ask the developers to cater to one player's incompetency to make things easier for him. Rogues who were previously not Stealth-based are now playing in a way that they dislike, because you people keep complaining. First was our DPS, which was rather impressive. And after it was nerfed, you cry about the next possible way we can adapt. Permastealth, or any high Stealth builds for that matter is NOT popular because TR's like it, it's popular because it's the only way to optimize oneself for PVP; all because of the many tears people have been crying since the beginning of open beta.
CC is the only advantage CWs have in PVP. Damage is pretty low. I know that CWs are supposed to negate tenacity but the difference is really noticeable. For example, no CW uses chill strike anymore even though it has a stun because it's more like a stutter than a stun anymore, and that was a main component of the "perma-stun/send to spawn" combo you keep mentioning. Most use enfeebling ray instead which has zero cc just for some damage (a mild debuff and like 5k damage- yay).
CW is the squishiest class in the game, so any advantage from range is negated by a disadvantage at close-range, and if he can't CC and is out of dodges, he's dead.
That's the main difference here, our advantage comes with a real disadvantage. A rogues advantages (range abilities, best spike damage daily in pvp, perma-stealth, ITC invincibility) all combine to cover for any disadvantages. People can see you if you're close in stealth? Just throw knives all day. Stealth down? Just use ITC. Both stealth and ITC down (avoidable)- just use shocking execution and kill the guy.
GWFs and GFs advantages of being so tanky and proning and having periods of CC-immunity are negated somewhat by them being forced to be close (AND VISIBLE). They're still powerful classes but AT LEAST YOU CAN ATTACK THEM.
An HR's advantage of being mobile, good damage and having good interupts is negated by them being pretty squishy if caught (very similar to CWs).
Mainly though I'm sick of people telling me to "think" instead of "cry". It's like people think CWs don't try anything at all and are all just a bunch of mindless trolls playing this game.
As long as fights are unwindable, CWs are going to keep complaining because it's no fun getting killed and being unable to fight back. Telling them it's their own fault when it's clearly doesn't help anything.
***
Now I understand why people spec perma, because it is as you say really the only viable spec left. But I'm not sure if it's the fault of the complainers or the defenders, who may have defended themselves into a corner and ruined their viability in PVE and ability to spec anything else all so they can keep this unfair advantage of perma-stealth.
CC is the only advantage CWs have in PVP. Damage is pretty low. I know that CWs are supposed to negate tenacity but the difference is really noticeable. For example, no CW uses chill strike anymore even though it has a stun because it's more like a stutter than a stun anymore, and that was a main component of the "perma-stun/send to spawn" combo you keep mentioning. Most use enfeebling ray instead which has zero cc just for some damage (a mild debuff and like 5k damage- yay).
cw damage is low!?!
By the way they dont negate the tenacity just yet, they will tho...
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Now I will give my opinion regarding being invisible. NW is based on the Forgotten Realms. I have not played the actual RPG, but I have been reading the books since the mid nineties. The laws of magic in the Forgotten Realms state that ANY form of attack immediately dispels invisibility. There are no exceptions for this, including for the gods themselves. (See the avatar quintet for examples of this.) This applies to all types of invisibility including psionics. So if I were making the change it would be that you could remain invisible as long as you want until you attack, at which point it would dispel, I would even give a base damage increase to any attack while invisible. But you would have to stop attacking to go invisible again. Simple and it follows the laws of magic of the realms this game is based on. As I do not play the HR, I am sure other tweaks would need to follow as well, I leave that to the pros to figure out.
I posted that 25 pages ago. No one has yet to event attempt to counter this argument.
Side note if your post includes any mention of "your crying" in any form or fashion I skip to the next post, as I am not interested in your insults as a form of debate. To the others I have enjoyed the lively debate, and have even used some of the advice from you. So thank you.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
I posted that 25 pages ago. No one has yet to event attempt to counter this argument.
Side note if your post includes any mention of "your crying" in any form or fashion I skip to the next post, as I am not interested in your insults as a form of debate. To the others I have enjoyed the lively debate, and have even used some of the advice from you. So thank you.
Idk what D&D is, I just thought the game's PvP looked cool and came in for that. If you want to talk about removing stealth in that fashion though TR would need a very large DPS boost though. That is a poor way to deal with it though now that so many other changes have taken place around stealth functioning as it is and very unlikely due to the reasons I outlined in a previous post.
D&D is Dungeons and Dragons, the original RPG, Forgotten Realms is a sub world in that universe. This game revolves around activities in a portion of the Forgotten Realms.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
the problem is that stealth is the ONLY defense of rogues, we have nothing more, we don't have CC's they don't have prones that we can spam as other classes, most rogues are dead if they are caught of stealth.
the problem is that stealth is the ONLY defense of rogues, we have nothing more, we don't have CC's they don't have prones that we can spam as other classes, most rogues are dead if they are caught of stealth.
Yeah I mean it's not like they have a 5 second CC-immunity/100% deflect they can pop every 18 seconds or anything.
Idk what D&D is, I just thought the game's PvP looked cool and came in for that. If you want to talk about removing stealth in that fashion though TR would need a very large DPS boost though. That is a poor way to deal with it though now that so many other changes have taken place around stealth functioning as it is and very unlikely due to the reasons I outlined in a previous post.
TR damage should be high. Really high. It should be far and away the best single target damage in the game.
As long as people insist on keeping perma-stealth though, they're going to remain nerfed in other areas to compensate.
Yeah well if every class had another class that they can never beat, that might be a thing. It's not though. The rock/paper/scissors thing does not apply to this game.
CW can't beat anybody really except DCs. CW isn't really a viable PVP class anymore. But at least we can fight other classes.
Yeah well if every class had another class that they can never beat, that might be a thing. It's not though. The rock/paper/scissors thing does not apply to this game.
CW can't beat anybody really except DCs. CW isn't really a viable PVP class anymore. But at least we can fight other classes.
This is simply not true. You're making claims on a 1v1 basis, which is not how it works in a true team-setting. The CW class is not the best choice for a 1v1 class, you have that right, but as a roaming support, it's VERY effective. Decent damage potential, and still contributes with CC, even though neither is quite as good as they were before tenacity (this applies to every class, obviously).
If you try to be a lone-wolf CW, of course it's not going to work well... you're wearing a dress. When you are paired up with another though (preferably a tank who can keep the opponents off of you), the CW is still pretty strong.
I would, however, submit that this is completely off-topic for this thread's original purpose. CW's should likely make a thread of their own and discuss their viability in PvP there.
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah I mean it's not like they have a 5 second CC-immunity/100% deflect they can pop every 18 seconds or anything.
Does absolutely nothing against prone, so I don't understand this defense. If a GF or GWF catches me off-guard, without a smoke bomb or dodge ready, I might as well set down the mouse(I don't), as I'll be lucky to escape prone lock before death.
CW can't beat anybody really except DCs. CW isn't really a viable PVP class anymore. But at least we can fight other classes.
This is not my experience with my CW, and I have a lowly gear score and PUG exclusively.
Sure, I get matches where the team is awful and I get focussed down all the time. But where I have time and room to operate I can rack up kills. I can even beat some TRs 1v1. Probably bad ones, but I'll take what I can get.
TR damage should be high. Really high. It should be far and away the best single target damage in the game.
As long as people insist on keeping perma-stealth though, they're going to remain nerfed in other areas to compensate.
That's the problem. It has gone too far with various TR damage nerfs that it wont be possible to go back anymore. I think at this point we need to just advocate for lesser stealth nerfs and stick with what we have. Otherwise it would be a very long time before they slowly started raising rogue damage again to a reasonable amount after trashing stealth builds. Even then it probably wouldn't reach the potential it should because people have been so outspoken about TR damage in the past.
I do think I reply properly without giving two answers.
PvE: Perma stealth is clearly broken. People exploiting game mechanics to solo epic dungeon bosses. I haven't seen such a broken stealth system in 20 years of playing MMOs. It gives people the ability to completely bypass the intended design and mechanics of a dungeon.
PvP: There doesn't appear to by anyway to pull people out of stealth like other games. Stealth regardless of game just gives to of an advantage if there is no way counter it. I have PvP'd in lots of MMOs and played stealth classes but there was always drawbacks to stealth such less healing, movement penalties and so on. While there is some drawback to stealth it just isn't enough to counter the obvious advantage of being invisable.
Having high damage is one thing but added to fact that TRs are soloing some epic bosses then you have to wonder where the balance is.
Sure they squishy but so are wizards and they can't disappear in to the ether when they want.
In terms of lore I don't even think it belongs in sword and scorecy game. What does the TR use to disappear in to this air ? Is it magic armor, potions or just plain magic.
Does absolutely nothing against prone, so I don't understand this defense. If a GF or GWF catches me off-guard, without a smoke bomb or dodge ready, I might as well set down the mouse(I don't), as I'll be lucky to escape prone lock before death.
I'm talking CW vs. Rogue. CW's only prone is shard and a rogue can easily make that disappear, not to mention it's very hard to hit someone with it without CC'ing them first.
Anyway, CWs have to fight GWFs and GFs without stealth and the only defense we have is what you have without stealth- dodges.
As for others saying CWs are viable, that's just because the opposing team is bad. I've had games where I rack up 20 kills, but it's just because the other team let me.
CWs are super easy to kill and should be focused on sight. If anyone's letting them live, it's not because the CWs are good, it's because they're bad.
I do think I reply properly without giving two answers.
PvE: Perma stealth is clearly broken. People exploiting game mechanics to solo epic dungeon bosses. I haven't seen such a broken stealth system in 20 years of playing MMOs. It gives people the ability to completely bypass the intended design and mechanics of a dungeon.
PvP: There doesn't appear to by anyway to pull people out of stealth like other games. Stealth regardless of game just gives to of an advantage if there is no way counter it. I have PvP'd in lots of MMOs and played stealth classes but there was always drawbacks to stealth such less healing, movement penalties and so on. While there is some drawback to stealth it just isn't enough to counter the obvious advantage of being invisable.
Having high damage is one thing but added to fact that TRs are soloing some epic bosses then you have to wonder where the balance is.
Sure they squishy but so are wizards and they can't disappear in to the ether when they want.
In terms of lore I don't even think it belongs in sword and scorecy game. What does the TR use to disappear in to this air ? Is it magic armor, potions or just plain magic.
Yeah that's true. I keep saying that rogues are nerfed in PVE but I forget that they can solo epic dungeons. Not exactly nerfed.
I do think I reply properly without giving two answers.
PvE: Perma stealth is clearly broken. People exploiting game mechanics to solo epic dungeon bosses. I haven't seen such a broken stealth system in 20 years of playing MMOs. It gives people the ability to completely bypass the intended design and mechanics of a dungeon.
PvP: There doesn't appear to by anyway to pull people out of stealth like other games. Stealth regardless of game just gives to of an advantage if there is no way counter it. I have PvP'd in lots of MMOs and played stealth classes but there was always drawbacks to stealth such less healing, movement penalties and so on. While there is some drawback to stealth it just isn't enough to counter the obvious advantage of being invisable.
Having high damage is one thing but added to fact that TRs are soloing some epic bosses then you have to wonder where the balance is.
Sure they squishy but so are wizards and they can't disappear in to the ether when they want.
In terms of lore I don't even think it belongs in sword and scorecy game. What does the TR use to disappear in to this air ? Is it magic armor, potions or just plain magic.
The thing is that there is not a way to counter perma-stealth(except the Lantern of revelation once a min if you will...) and that causes the imbalance and makes it an exaggerated advantage. Same thing with the gwfs knockdownsss-stun combo etc.
On the other hand cc, which is a cws and hrs advantage, can be countered by powers like unstoppable, and if that isnt enough elven battle enchantment and tenacity make it practically useless in pvp(imo it has been nerfed too much, to the point of ruining pvp for cws).
Now, in theory u could take the various advantages and drawbacks of each class, put them in a group context and say that in the end there is balance, but the truth is that even that sometimes rare full 5vs5 encounter is full of 1on1 situations as all dps target dcs and the squishy cws and here you really want each class to have a way to counter the advantages of the other and not simply be fodder, otherwise we all ought to opt for tanky sentinels...
Tbh the only balance i see atm is that trs and hrs make up in pvp for what they "lack" in pve, while the reverse is true for cws... x)
For the last time, Lantern of Revelation is not a good counter because perma TRs are usually ranged.
Of course it is, but you gota make sure it's paired with the invincible Icy Terrain and Steal Time spells
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
There is a way to counter perma-stealth actually, and I don't know *why* teams will send 3-4 people to deal with one perma-stealth TR, but I can guarantee you that kind of stupidity is what wins such a perma-stealther the match - you are giving them what they want.
All you need is 1 non-perma TR. The *other* PVP build. These permas give up so many feat points and encounters to stay in stealth, yet one round of Path of The Blades and they are visible. Once visible, they are dead.
Comments
removing permastealth is still not a solution, what will tr do againts a gwf after ? Stand there and wait to be knocked down to death, again i repeat, this is not a CW againt TR thread. And hopefully most tr will beat you as tr are the class that should be killing you the easiest.. but well who cares right?
Yes, sure it's not CWvsTR.
However you will find out that most complaints about classes in the forums come from players from some other class that inherently does poorly in that specific matchup. Some players I know don't even complain - they reroll the OP class lol. For example, many TRs that abandoned the class for HR now suddenly rediscovered it
Sadly you will find out that a majority of people complaining are CWs though. I think this is because most 1vs1 matchups are unfavorable to the class, even in no0b vs no0b "I have 20K hp PvE build" conditions. To beat a CW as a HR, TR, GWF or GF requires moderate to no skill involved. To beat these classes as a CW requires skill, luck, knowledge of the other class and very good timing, and it might still not be enough. Sure at one point, you gonna be content in the support role (such as I am now for example, I pretty much stopped caring about 1vs1 a while ago and do it just for practice&lulz), but it's hard to come to terms with your class being second worse at this in the game (we can usually kick some DC <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, hell yeah!).
Now permastealth. If you followed my posts, I don't think I ever asked for nerfing it or even changing it. All I posted is information about what happens in certain situations, from personal experience, with some humor on the side, as the situation kinda demands it
I personally think the ability is kinda ridiculous, but I'm at the point where I don't really bother to care. If the devs think the game should be about running randomly on a point hidden... and critting 20-30K shockings... and having stealth REFILLS... and speed increases... and class feat to decrease damage done to stealth... and skills that you launch and they just tick damage without any targeting necessary...
... in all honesty... this is NOT combat. This is a class following another, almost helpless class, while hidden or immune, dealing consistent damage.
It's not OK...
Oh but it's still possible even if you are not built for it. Let's face the facts. Tenacity only reduces the the duration of your CC by roughly 22% - 25% at top end profound PVP gear, and CW's are the ONLY class in PVP who pierces that by 66%. So in essence this "nerf" you are referring to can be pretty much negated simply by your WIS bonus, and if you want to make it better just slot Orb of Imposition, but he doesn't really have to, because the roughly 20% resistance to CC gets reduced to only 1/3rd of its real efficacy. Only the CW has this "unfair" advantage for PVP.
The CW class is the only class in PVP who can bring with them a possible 4 load out of CC encounters all associated with high DPS and top notch range, not to mention only the CW has an At-Will that acts like another CC which you all have regularly slotted; Ray of Frost. All your dailies have CC's associated with them, and the CW class is the fastest class to generate their dailies. Any and all squishies who are caught off guard by a CW with 3 or more CC's are sure to perish in one rotation. Only a CW can do something like this, only a CW has this unfair advantage of being able to nuke people from range and render them unable to react for significant amounts of time. Tell me that's not unfair, being able to do all that at the safety of an 80' range.
If you want a winnable fight against the antithesis of your class who has been given direct counters your given advantages; you think, you adapt. If ITC is active, do you keep blowing your encounters and roll your face on the keyboard like you usually do when you fight classes that do not have immunities? When a TR is chucking low DPS daggers at you, do you waste your dodges? When a TR is in Stealth trying to protect himself, do you run or do you actively seek the TR? Fighting the class that behaves like the direct counter of yours requires a LOT of thinking. This is PVP, you can't always have it easy, similar to how we TR's have a hard time fighting against GWF's or HR's regardless of build. Those are the natural counters to our class. One mistake and the spawn greets us, so we have to play seamlessly.
If you want to win against the perfect counter for your class, you think, not create a river of tears in the forums and ask the developers to cater to one player's incompetency to make things easier for him. Rogues who were previously not Stealth-based are now playing in a way that they dislike, because you people keep complaining. First was our DPS, which was rather impressive. And after it was nerfed, you cry about the next possible way we can adapt. Permastealth, or any high Stealth builds for that matter is NOT popular because TR's like it, it's popular because it's the only way to optimize oneself for PVP; all because of the many tears people have been crying since the beginning of open beta.
Yes, yes we know how weak are perma stealth TR 1 vs 2or3 and 1-2 down and maybe last one will kill you (maybe!)... TR is a bit OP at moment for this stupid kind of PVP not because he is OP class but because he can run around in stealth so much time without to do anything. In this time your team will gain POINTS and we will lose time 1, 2, 3 people in trying to find this TR. Because if we send there one pure DPS class he will just die slowly but he will die. How ? Just poison from stealth go far, after CD again, and again and yes he can do much more if this TR is sure that will kill the target but if he know that he will die - poison from above and go far. Busy ppl in all the time of match = win. Yes our TR do it, he respect from full DPS build where he kill easy 1 vs 2 because he is good TR and he go to perma stealth BECAUSE in this game we no need DPS we need to hold the point...
If you read careful you will understand why people here comment this but not that the TR is OP. We need to find perma stealth fast but not in next 2-3-5 min.
And yes I know now that ArP do not help much for PVP DPS and if I want to do something after last stupid path with this tenacity I need to go for full defensive stats as HR ofc. Nature build FTW...
You can report that in normal MMOs when developers add PVP defensive stat they add and PVP offensive stat - this is called BALANCE. Because at moment we have no choice but we are forced to go for max defensive stats if we want to be viable in PVP. This is so stupid ... please report it maybe someone will understand the situation.
+1
If anything, tenacity nerfs all cc, but at least cws get a buff to counter that. I speak from experience of playing EVERY class in pvp. Sure, everybody imo got hit with tenacity, but gwf got hit the least, followed by gf(who actually got buffed), then cw(cuz we got a control bonus now).
CC is the only advantage CWs have in PVP. Damage is pretty low. I know that CWs are supposed to negate tenacity but the difference is really noticeable. For example, no CW uses chill strike anymore even though it has a stun because it's more like a stutter than a stun anymore, and that was a main component of the "perma-stun/send to spawn" combo you keep mentioning. Most use enfeebling ray instead which has zero cc just for some damage (a mild debuff and like 5k damage- yay).
CW is the squishiest class in the game, so any advantage from range is negated by a disadvantage at close-range, and if he can't CC and is out of dodges, he's dead.
That's the main difference here, our advantage comes with a real disadvantage. A rogues advantages (range abilities, best spike damage daily in pvp, perma-stealth, ITC invincibility) all combine to cover for any disadvantages. People can see you if you're close in stealth? Just throw knives all day. Stealth down? Just use ITC. Both stealth and ITC down (avoidable)- just use shocking execution and kill the guy.
GWFs and GFs advantages of being so tanky and proning and having periods of CC-immunity are negated somewhat by them being forced to be close (AND VISIBLE). They're still powerful classes but AT LEAST YOU CAN ATTACK THEM.
An HR's advantage of being mobile, good damage and having good interupts is negated by them being pretty squishy if caught (very similar to CWs).
Mainly though I'm sick of people telling me to "think" instead of "cry". It's like people think CWs don't try anything at all and are all just a bunch of mindless trolls playing this game.
As long as fights are unwindable, CWs are going to keep complaining because it's no fun getting killed and being unable to fight back. Telling them it's their own fault when it's clearly doesn't help anything.
***
Now I understand why people spec perma, because it is as you say really the only viable spec left. But I'm not sure if it's the fault of the complainers or the defenders, who may have defended themselves into a corner and ruined their viability in PVE and ability to spec anything else all so they can keep this unfair advantage of perma-stealth.
omg cw cant beat their worst pvp enemy!! *cry*
cw damage is low!?!
By the way they dont negate the tenacity just yet, they will tho...
So your rationale is, TR is the CW's foil in PVP and should have a gigantic advantage over it.
And I'm not crying. Just going to bring up the topic over the forums over and over again.
TRs have been nerfed before justifiable and I wouldn't put it past cryptic to see the light and do it again
I posted that 25 pages ago. No one has yet to event attempt to counter this argument.
Side note if your post includes any mention of "your crying" in any form or fashion I skip to the next post, as I am not interested in your insults as a form of debate. To the others I have enjoyed the lively debate, and have even used some of the advice from you. So thank you.
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Idk what D&D is, I just thought the game's PvP looked cool and came in for that. If you want to talk about removing stealth in that fashion though TR would need a very large DPS boost though. That is a poor way to deal with it though now that so many other changes have taken place around stealth functioning as it is and very unlikely due to the reasons I outlined in a previous post.
D&D is Dungeons and Dragons, the original RPG, Forgotten Realms is a sub world in that universe. This game revolves around activities in a portion of the Forgotten Realms.
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Yeah, it is. The only reason we top the dps charts in PVE is because we have few if any caps on the number of mobs we can hit with our AOEs.
When are CWs going to negate tenacity exactly?
If they did, then the supposed advantage they have might actually worth talking about.
Yeah I mean it's not like they have a 5 second CC-immunity/100% deflect they can pop every 18 seconds or anything.
TR damage should be high. Really high. It should be far and away the best single target damage in the game.
As long as people insist on keeping perma-stealth though, they're going to remain nerfed in other areas to compensate.
Yeah well if every class had another class that they can never beat, that might be a thing. It's not though. The rock/paper/scissors thing does not apply to this game.
CW can't beat anybody really except DCs. CW isn't really a viable PVP class anymore. But at least we can fight other classes.
This is simply not true. You're making claims on a 1v1 basis, which is not how it works in a true team-setting. The CW class is not the best choice for a 1v1 class, you have that right, but as a roaming support, it's VERY effective. Decent damage potential, and still contributes with CC, even though neither is quite as good as they were before tenacity (this applies to every class, obviously).
If you try to be a lone-wolf CW, of course it's not going to work well... you're wearing a dress. When you are paired up with another though (preferably a tank who can keep the opponents off of you), the CW is still pretty strong.
I would, however, submit that this is completely off-topic for this thread's original purpose. CW's should likely make a thread of their own and discuss their viability in PvP there.
Does absolutely nothing against prone, so I don't understand this defense. If a GF or GWF catches me off-guard, without a smoke bomb or dodge ready, I might as well set down the mouse(I don't), as I'll be lucky to escape prone lock before death.
Sure, I get matches where the team is awful and I get focussed down all the time. But where I have time and room to operate I can rack up kills. I can even beat some TRs 1v1. Probably bad ones, but I'll take what I can get.
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That's the problem. It has gone too far with various TR damage nerfs that it wont be possible to go back anymore. I think at this point we need to just advocate for lesser stealth nerfs and stick with what we have. Otherwise it would be a very long time before they slowly started raising rogue damage again to a reasonable amount after trashing stealth builds. Even then it probably wouldn't reach the potential it should because people have been so outspoken about TR damage in the past.
PvE: Perma stealth is clearly broken. People exploiting game mechanics to solo epic dungeon bosses. I haven't seen such a broken stealth system in 20 years of playing MMOs. It gives people the ability to completely bypass the intended design and mechanics of a dungeon.
PvP: There doesn't appear to by anyway to pull people out of stealth like other games. Stealth regardless of game just gives to of an advantage if there is no way counter it. I have PvP'd in lots of MMOs and played stealth classes but there was always drawbacks to stealth such less healing, movement penalties and so on. While there is some drawback to stealth it just isn't enough to counter the obvious advantage of being invisable.
Having high damage is one thing but added to fact that TRs are soloing some epic bosses then you have to wonder where the balance is.
Sure they squishy but so are wizards and they can't disappear in to the ether when they want.
In terms of lore I don't even think it belongs in sword and scorecy game. What does the TR use to disappear in to this air ? Is it magic armor, potions or just plain magic.
I'm talking CW vs. Rogue. CW's only prone is shard and a rogue can easily make that disappear, not to mention it's very hard to hit someone with it without CC'ing them first.
Anyway, CWs have to fight GWFs and GFs without stealth and the only defense we have is what you have without stealth- dodges.
As for others saying CWs are viable, that's just because the opposing team is bad. I've had games where I rack up 20 kills, but it's just because the other team let me.
CWs are super easy to kill and should be focused on sight. If anyone's letting them live, it's not because the CWs are good, it's because they're bad.
Yeah that's true. I keep saying that rogues are nerfed in PVE but I forget that they can solo epic dungeons. Not exactly nerfed.
Oh hey, someone who actually argues with logic!
On the other hand cc, which is a cws and hrs advantage, can be countered by powers like unstoppable, and if that isnt enough elven battle enchantment and tenacity make it practically useless in pvp(imo it has been nerfed too much, to the point of ruining pvp for cws).
Now, in theory u could take the various advantages and drawbacks of each class, put them in a group context and say that in the end there is balance, but the truth is that even that sometimes rare full 5vs5 encounter is full of 1on1 situations as all dps target dcs and the squishy cws and here you really want each class to have a way to counter the advantages of the other and not simply be fodder, otherwise we all ought to opt for tanky sentinels...
Tbh the only balance i see atm is that trs and hrs make up in pvp for what they "lack" in pve, while the reverse is true for cws... x)
Not to mention the whooping 3 minute CD
Of course it is, but you gota make sure it's paired with the invincible Icy Terrain and Steal Time spells
All you need is 1 non-perma TR. The *other* PVP build. These permas give up so many feat points and encounters to stay in stealth, yet one round of Path of The Blades and they are visible. Once visible, they are dead.