CC is the only advantage CWs have in PVP. Damage is pretty low. I know that CWs are supposed to negate tenacity but the difference is really noticeable. For example, no CW uses chill strike anymore even though it has a stun because it's more like a stutter than a stun anymore, and that was a main component of the "perma-stun/send to spawn" combo you keep mentioning. Most use enfeebling ray instead which has zero cc just for some damage (a mild debuff and like 5k damage- yay).
cw damage is low!?!
By the way they dont negate the tenacity just yet, they will tho...
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Now I will give my opinion regarding being invisible. NW is based on the Forgotten Realms. I have not played the actual RPG, but I have been reading the books since the mid nineties. The laws of magic in the Forgotten Realms state that ANY form of attack immediately dispels invisibility. There are no exceptions for this, including for the gods themselves. (See the avatar quintet for examples of this.) This applies to all types of invisibility including psionics. So if I were making the change it would be that you could remain invisible as long as you want until you attack, at which point it would dispel, I would even give a base damage increase to any attack while invisible. But you would have to stop attacking to go invisible again. Simple and it follows the laws of magic of the realms this game is based on. As I do not play the HR, I am sure other tweaks would need to follow as well, I leave that to the pros to figure out.
I posted that 25 pages ago. No one has yet to event attempt to counter this argument.
Side note if your post includes any mention of "your crying" in any form or fashion I skip to the next post, as I am not interested in your insults as a form of debate. To the others I have enjoyed the lively debate, and have even used some of the advice from you. So thank you.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
I posted that 25 pages ago. No one has yet to event attempt to counter this argument.
Side note if your post includes any mention of "your crying" in any form or fashion I skip to the next post, as I am not interested in your insults as a form of debate. To the others I have enjoyed the lively debate, and have even used some of the advice from you. So thank you.
Idk what D&D is, I just thought the game's PvP looked cool and came in for that. If you want to talk about removing stealth in that fashion though TR would need a very large DPS boost though. That is a poor way to deal with it though now that so many other changes have taken place around stealth functioning as it is and very unlikely due to the reasons I outlined in a previous post.
D&D is Dungeons and Dragons, the original RPG, Forgotten Realms is a sub world in that universe. This game revolves around activities in a portion of the Forgotten Realms.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
the problem is that stealth is the ONLY defense of rogues, we have nothing more, we don't have CC's they don't have prones that we can spam as other classes, most rogues are dead if they are caught of stealth.
the problem is that stealth is the ONLY defense of rogues, we have nothing more, we don't have CC's they don't have prones that we can spam as other classes, most rogues are dead if they are caught of stealth.
Yeah I mean it's not like they have a 5 second CC-immunity/100% deflect they can pop every 18 seconds or anything.
Idk what D&D is, I just thought the game's PvP looked cool and came in for that. If you want to talk about removing stealth in that fashion though TR would need a very large DPS boost though. That is a poor way to deal with it though now that so many other changes have taken place around stealth functioning as it is and very unlikely due to the reasons I outlined in a previous post.
TR damage should be high. Really high. It should be far and away the best single target damage in the game.
As long as people insist on keeping perma-stealth though, they're going to remain nerfed in other areas to compensate.
Yeah well if every class had another class that they can never beat, that might be a thing. It's not though. The rock/paper/scissors thing does not apply to this game.
CW can't beat anybody really except DCs. CW isn't really a viable PVP class anymore. But at least we can fight other classes.
Yeah well if every class had another class that they can never beat, that might be a thing. It's not though. The rock/paper/scissors thing does not apply to this game.
CW can't beat anybody really except DCs. CW isn't really a viable PVP class anymore. But at least we can fight other classes.
This is simply not true. You're making claims on a 1v1 basis, which is not how it works in a true team-setting. The CW class is not the best choice for a 1v1 class, you have that right, but as a roaming support, it's VERY effective. Decent damage potential, and still contributes with CC, even though neither is quite as good as they were before tenacity (this applies to every class, obviously).
If you try to be a lone-wolf CW, of course it's not going to work well... you're wearing a dress. When you are paired up with another though (preferably a tank who can keep the opponents off of you), the CW is still pretty strong.
I would, however, submit that this is completely off-topic for this thread's original purpose. CW's should likely make a thread of their own and discuss their viability in PvP there.
0
bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah I mean it's not like they have a 5 second CC-immunity/100% deflect they can pop every 18 seconds or anything.
Does absolutely nothing against prone, so I don't understand this defense. If a GF or GWF catches me off-guard, without a smoke bomb or dodge ready, I might as well set down the mouse(I don't), as I'll be lucky to escape prone lock before death.
CW can't beat anybody really except DCs. CW isn't really a viable PVP class anymore. But at least we can fight other classes.
This is not my experience with my CW, and I have a lowly gear score and PUG exclusively.
Sure, I get matches where the team is awful and I get focussed down all the time. But where I have time and room to operate I can rack up kills. I can even beat some TRs 1v1. Probably bad ones, but I'll take what I can get.
TR damage should be high. Really high. It should be far and away the best single target damage in the game.
As long as people insist on keeping perma-stealth though, they're going to remain nerfed in other areas to compensate.
That's the problem. It has gone too far with various TR damage nerfs that it wont be possible to go back anymore. I think at this point we need to just advocate for lesser stealth nerfs and stick with what we have. Otherwise it would be a very long time before they slowly started raising rogue damage again to a reasonable amount after trashing stealth builds. Even then it probably wouldn't reach the potential it should because people have been so outspoken about TR damage in the past.
I do think I reply properly without giving two answers.
PvE: Perma stealth is clearly broken. People exploiting game mechanics to solo epic dungeon bosses. I haven't seen such a broken stealth system in 20 years of playing MMOs. It gives people the ability to completely bypass the intended design and mechanics of a dungeon.
PvP: There doesn't appear to by anyway to pull people out of stealth like other games. Stealth regardless of game just gives to of an advantage if there is no way counter it. I have PvP'd in lots of MMOs and played stealth classes but there was always drawbacks to stealth such less healing, movement penalties and so on. While there is some drawback to stealth it just isn't enough to counter the obvious advantage of being invisable.
Having high damage is one thing but added to fact that TRs are soloing some epic bosses then you have to wonder where the balance is.
Sure they squishy but so are wizards and they can't disappear in to the ether when they want.
In terms of lore I don't even think it belongs in sword and scorecy game. What does the TR use to disappear in to this air ? Is it magic armor, potions or just plain magic.
Does absolutely nothing against prone, so I don't understand this defense. If a GF or GWF catches me off-guard, without a smoke bomb or dodge ready, I might as well set down the mouse(I don't), as I'll be lucky to escape prone lock before death.
I'm talking CW vs. Rogue. CW's only prone is shard and a rogue can easily make that disappear, not to mention it's very hard to hit someone with it without CC'ing them first.
Anyway, CWs have to fight GWFs and GFs without stealth and the only defense we have is what you have without stealth- dodges.
As for others saying CWs are viable, that's just because the opposing team is bad. I've had games where I rack up 20 kills, but it's just because the other team let me.
CWs are super easy to kill and should be focused on sight. If anyone's letting them live, it's not because the CWs are good, it's because they're bad.
I do think I reply properly without giving two answers.
PvE: Perma stealth is clearly broken. People exploiting game mechanics to solo epic dungeon bosses. I haven't seen such a broken stealth system in 20 years of playing MMOs. It gives people the ability to completely bypass the intended design and mechanics of a dungeon.
PvP: There doesn't appear to by anyway to pull people out of stealth like other games. Stealth regardless of game just gives to of an advantage if there is no way counter it. I have PvP'd in lots of MMOs and played stealth classes but there was always drawbacks to stealth such less healing, movement penalties and so on. While there is some drawback to stealth it just isn't enough to counter the obvious advantage of being invisable.
Having high damage is one thing but added to fact that TRs are soloing some epic bosses then you have to wonder where the balance is.
Sure they squishy but so are wizards and they can't disappear in to the ether when they want.
In terms of lore I don't even think it belongs in sword and scorecy game. What does the TR use to disappear in to this air ? Is it magic armor, potions or just plain magic.
Yeah that's true. I keep saying that rogues are nerfed in PVE but I forget that they can solo epic dungeons. Not exactly nerfed.
I do think I reply properly without giving two answers.
PvE: Perma stealth is clearly broken. People exploiting game mechanics to solo epic dungeon bosses. I haven't seen such a broken stealth system in 20 years of playing MMOs. It gives people the ability to completely bypass the intended design and mechanics of a dungeon.
PvP: There doesn't appear to by anyway to pull people out of stealth like other games. Stealth regardless of game just gives to of an advantage if there is no way counter it. I have PvP'd in lots of MMOs and played stealth classes but there was always drawbacks to stealth such less healing, movement penalties and so on. While there is some drawback to stealth it just isn't enough to counter the obvious advantage of being invisable.
Having high damage is one thing but added to fact that TRs are soloing some epic bosses then you have to wonder where the balance is.
Sure they squishy but so are wizards and they can't disappear in to the ether when they want.
In terms of lore I don't even think it belongs in sword and scorecy game. What does the TR use to disappear in to this air ? Is it magic armor, potions or just plain magic.
The thing is that there is not a way to counter perma-stealth(except the Lantern of revelation once a min if you will...) and that causes the imbalance and makes it an exaggerated advantage. Same thing with the gwfs knockdownsss-stun combo etc.
On the other hand cc, which is a cws and hrs advantage, can be countered by powers like unstoppable, and if that isnt enough elven battle enchantment and tenacity make it practically useless in pvp(imo it has been nerfed too much, to the point of ruining pvp for cws).
Now, in theory u could take the various advantages and drawbacks of each class, put them in a group context and say that in the end there is balance, but the truth is that even that sometimes rare full 5vs5 encounter is full of 1on1 situations as all dps target dcs and the squishy cws and here you really want each class to have a way to counter the advantages of the other and not simply be fodder, otherwise we all ought to opt for tanky sentinels...
Tbh the only balance i see atm is that trs and hrs make up in pvp for what they "lack" in pve, while the reverse is true for cws... x)
For the last time, Lantern of Revelation is not a good counter because perma TRs are usually ranged.
Of course it is, but you gota make sure it's paired with the invincible Icy Terrain and Steal Time spells
0
bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
There is a way to counter perma-stealth actually, and I don't know *why* teams will send 3-4 people to deal with one perma-stealth TR, but I can guarantee you that kind of stupidity is what wins such a perma-stealther the match - you are giving them what they want.
All you need is 1 non-perma TR. The *other* PVP build. These permas give up so many feat points and encounters to stay in stealth, yet one round of Path of The Blades and they are visible. Once visible, they are dead.
There is a way to counter perma-stealth actually, and I don't know *why* teams will send 3-4 people to deal with one perma-stealth TR.
All you need is 1 non-perma TR. The *other* PVP build. These permas give up so many feat points and encounters to stay in stealth, yet one round of Path of The Blades and they are visible. Once visible, they are dead.
How to deal with permas 1v1:
Run away and send a different rogue to fight them.
Yeah that's true. I keep saying that rogues are nerfed in PVE but I forget that they can solo epic dungeons. Not exactly nerfed.
This stupid thing again?!
GWF can do the same 10x faster with the right gears...
TR can't solo any dungeon anymore fast as before due to the door they added everywhere... A tr would take 5 hours to finish a epic t2 dungeon witch is far from worth it.
The fact that they 'can' on paper, do it dont make em worthwile in pve.
Please before posting, think, read and think again. This have been discussed about 50 time on this thread. Thanks
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
This thread is just plain filled with the same comment over and over again because people don't take the time to read the threads..
omg tr can solo epic dungeon (yea maybe... in 5 hours)
the fact is that in group pve, tr will always be lowest damage output with same gears. the only lower one will be dc but thats important.
Omg there is no way to counter perma stealth..
**** this thread is filled with way to do it, you guys just dont read the forum.. READ IT AND STOP REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
1) It is already stated that they will be making changes to stealth mechanics. Check the TR class forums under "Potential Stealth Mechanic Changes" to see it. Therefore, there is no point in debating whether or not TR does or does not need a stealth nerf.
2) One of the things mentioned in that statement was they do intend to continue to allow players to be really stealthy if they can have that kind of stealth based build. The proposed changes that were stated do not involve altering stealth duration. We have also seen the recent addition of even more stealth via +30% stealth gear recently. Therefore, rather than debate about significant stealth reduction ideas, (such as making someone come out of stealth completely any time they attack), the discussions should be about changes which would be more practical with the idea the developers are taking (which is not significantly altering stealth duration).
3) The current proposed changes being looked into for stealth mechanics are:
- Making one visible to those they attack from stealth (temporary or permanently for the duration I believe is not stated)
- Making one's attacks from stealth deal less damage the longer they attack from stealth
Suggested or debated changes should follow similar paths or be feedback in response to the proposed changes.
I do not want limit anyone on what they can say, and people should surely feel free to bring up whatever they desire in this discussion, but it looks like the developers already have a set direction in mind on how they plan to deal with this situation. Feedback or suggestions which coincide with this view probably have a higher chance of getting recognized and implemented in the future.
Comments
omg cw cant beat their worst pvp enemy!! *cry*
cw damage is low!?!
By the way they dont negate the tenacity just yet, they will tho...
So your rationale is, TR is the CW's foil in PVP and should have a gigantic advantage over it.
And I'm not crying. Just going to bring up the topic over the forums over and over again.
TRs have been nerfed before justifiable and I wouldn't put it past cryptic to see the light and do it again
I posted that 25 pages ago. No one has yet to event attempt to counter this argument.
Side note if your post includes any mention of "your crying" in any form or fashion I skip to the next post, as I am not interested in your insults as a form of debate. To the others I have enjoyed the lively debate, and have even used some of the advice from you. So thank you.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
Idk what D&D is, I just thought the game's PvP looked cool and came in for that. If you want to talk about removing stealth in that fashion though TR would need a very large DPS boost though. That is a poor way to deal with it though now that so many other changes have taken place around stealth functioning as it is and very unlikely due to the reasons I outlined in a previous post.
D&D is Dungeons and Dragons, the original RPG, Forgotten Realms is a sub world in that universe. This game revolves around activities in a portion of the Forgotten Realms.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
Yeah, it is. The only reason we top the dps charts in PVE is because we have few if any caps on the number of mobs we can hit with our AOEs.
When are CWs going to negate tenacity exactly?
If they did, then the supposed advantage they have might actually worth talking about.
Yeah I mean it's not like they have a 5 second CC-immunity/100% deflect they can pop every 18 seconds or anything.
TR damage should be high. Really high. It should be far and away the best single target damage in the game.
As long as people insist on keeping perma-stealth though, they're going to remain nerfed in other areas to compensate.
Yeah well if every class had another class that they can never beat, that might be a thing. It's not though. The rock/paper/scissors thing does not apply to this game.
CW can't beat anybody really except DCs. CW isn't really a viable PVP class anymore. But at least we can fight other classes.
This is simply not true. You're making claims on a 1v1 basis, which is not how it works in a true team-setting. The CW class is not the best choice for a 1v1 class, you have that right, but as a roaming support, it's VERY effective. Decent damage potential, and still contributes with CC, even though neither is quite as good as they were before tenacity (this applies to every class, obviously).
If you try to be a lone-wolf CW, of course it's not going to work well... you're wearing a dress. When you are paired up with another though (preferably a tank who can keep the opponents off of you), the CW is still pretty strong.
I would, however, submit that this is completely off-topic for this thread's original purpose. CW's should likely make a thread of their own and discuss their viability in PvP there.
Does absolutely nothing against prone, so I don't understand this defense. If a GF or GWF catches me off-guard, without a smoke bomb or dodge ready, I might as well set down the mouse(I don't), as I'll be lucky to escape prone lock before death.
Sure, I get matches where the team is awful and I get focussed down all the time. But where I have time and room to operate I can rack up kills. I can even beat some TRs 1v1. Probably bad ones, but I'll take what I can get.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
That's the problem. It has gone too far with various TR damage nerfs that it wont be possible to go back anymore. I think at this point we need to just advocate for lesser stealth nerfs and stick with what we have. Otherwise it would be a very long time before they slowly started raising rogue damage again to a reasonable amount after trashing stealth builds. Even then it probably wouldn't reach the potential it should because people have been so outspoken about TR damage in the past.
PvE: Perma stealth is clearly broken. People exploiting game mechanics to solo epic dungeon bosses. I haven't seen such a broken stealth system in 20 years of playing MMOs. It gives people the ability to completely bypass the intended design and mechanics of a dungeon.
PvP: There doesn't appear to by anyway to pull people out of stealth like other games. Stealth regardless of game just gives to of an advantage if there is no way counter it. I have PvP'd in lots of MMOs and played stealth classes but there was always drawbacks to stealth such less healing, movement penalties and so on. While there is some drawback to stealth it just isn't enough to counter the obvious advantage of being invisable.
Having high damage is one thing but added to fact that TRs are soloing some epic bosses then you have to wonder where the balance is.
Sure they squishy but so are wizards and they can't disappear in to the ether when they want.
In terms of lore I don't even think it belongs in sword and scorecy game. What does the TR use to disappear in to this air ? Is it magic armor, potions or just plain magic.
I'm talking CW vs. Rogue. CW's only prone is shard and a rogue can easily make that disappear, not to mention it's very hard to hit someone with it without CC'ing them first.
Anyway, CWs have to fight GWFs and GFs without stealth and the only defense we have is what you have without stealth- dodges.
As for others saying CWs are viable, that's just because the opposing team is bad. I've had games where I rack up 20 kills, but it's just because the other team let me.
CWs are super easy to kill and should be focused on sight. If anyone's letting them live, it's not because the CWs are good, it's because they're bad.
Yeah that's true. I keep saying that rogues are nerfed in PVE but I forget that they can solo epic dungeons. Not exactly nerfed.
Oh hey, someone who actually argues with logic!
On the other hand cc, which is a cws and hrs advantage, can be countered by powers like unstoppable, and if that isnt enough elven battle enchantment and tenacity make it practically useless in pvp(imo it has been nerfed too much, to the point of ruining pvp for cws).
Now, in theory u could take the various advantages and drawbacks of each class, put them in a group context and say that in the end there is balance, but the truth is that even that sometimes rare full 5vs5 encounter is full of 1on1 situations as all dps target dcs and the squishy cws and here you really want each class to have a way to counter the advantages of the other and not simply be fodder, otherwise we all ought to opt for tanky sentinels...
Tbh the only balance i see atm is that trs and hrs make up in pvp for what they "lack" in pve, while the reverse is true for cws... x)
Not to mention the whooping 3 minute CD
Of course it is, but you gota make sure it's paired with the invincible Icy Terrain and Steal Time spells
All you need is 1 non-perma TR. The *other* PVP build. These permas give up so many feat points and encounters to stay in stealth, yet one round of Path of The Blades and they are visible. Once visible, they are dead.
How to deal with permas 1v1:
Run away and send a different rogue to fight them.
This stupid thing again?!
GWF can do the same 10x faster with the right gears...
TR can't solo any dungeon anymore fast as before due to the door they added everywhere... A tr would take 5 hours to finish a epic t2 dungeon witch is far from worth it.
The fact that they 'can' on paper, do it dont make em worthwile in pve.
Please before posting, think, read and think again. This have been discussed about 50 time on this thread. Thanks
omg tr can solo epic dungeon (yea maybe... in 5 hours)
the fact is that in group pve, tr will always be lowest damage output with same gears. the only lower one will be dc but thats important.
Omg there is no way to counter perma stealth..
**** this thread is filled with way to do it, you guys just dont read the forum.. READ IT AND STOP REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN
or a gwf with frontline surge
a cw with opressive force
im not going to say other stuff.. GO READ THIS THREAD! Everything is there
A CW with oppressive force? You clearly do not play any other class.
First of all, are you suggesting wasting a daily JUST for a CHANCE to SEE the TR? Also, Ranged TRs are immune to this
1) It is already stated that they will be making changes to stealth mechanics. Check the TR class forums under "Potential Stealth Mechanic Changes" to see it. Therefore, there is no point in debating whether or not TR does or does not need a stealth nerf.
2) One of the things mentioned in that statement was they do intend to continue to allow players to be really stealthy if they can have that kind of stealth based build. The proposed changes that were stated do not involve altering stealth duration. We have also seen the recent addition of even more stealth via +30% stealth gear recently. Therefore, rather than debate about significant stealth reduction ideas, (such as making someone come out of stealth completely any time they attack), the discussions should be about changes which would be more practical with the idea the developers are taking (which is not significantly altering stealth duration).
3) The current proposed changes being looked into for stealth mechanics are:
- Making one visible to those they attack from stealth (temporary or permanently for the duration I believe is not stated)
- Making one's attacks from stealth deal less damage the longer they attack from stealth
Suggested or debated changes should follow similar paths or be feedback in response to the proposed changes.
I do not want limit anyone on what they can say, and people should surely feel free to bring up whatever they desire in this discussion, but it looks like the developers already have a set direction in mind on how they plan to deal with this situation. Feedback or suggestions which coincide with this view probably have a higher chance of getting recognized and implemented in the future.