Plz give some of us credit..when we say GS matters, we are assuming both are skilled players, i.e knowledgeable of their class and that of there opponent. . If you say you can regularly ( hell even 1 out of 4 ) kill a skilled GWF in 1 vs 1, that are +/- 2k gs, then i'll call BS or post a vid..However, I agree that in 5 vs 5 DOMINATION, a group of skilled players PLAYING as a team can overcome such obstacles
I can't speak for him/her, but I don't the point as that gs is absolutely meaningless. Just that it is not as meaningful as commonly believed. The massive gaps in gear score are mirrored by the massive gaps in skill. The game as it stands now IS domination. As far as the 18k bis gwf vs the 18k bis cw of equal skill it really comes down to who hits who first, who has the initiative. People forget about initiative.
Personally I am glad matchmaking is not based on GS. My CW has a fairly high GS (14k) but is completely PVE-specced. It fares very poorly vs a 14k of any other class that is PVP-specced. Based on a proper matchmaking, my CW should not be placed into the "14k" bracket, but would be more appropriately placed in a bracket that has lower GS but more similar PVP skill and gear.
just because the devs haven't confirmed or denied any change suggestions that you or anyone else in the forums have made does not mean that they are not taking the feedback with stride. as a matter of fact, in the most recent announcement about the changes, PWE staff says:
you have to remember that this is a game that begins with the devs who have stated they are big d&d fans. game development is as much of a creative outlet as film making except with gaming, at least with free expansions and constant updates and changes, they are more than willing to listen to constructive feedback. but i'm telling you, this process starts from all of the feedback given from everyone about their disappointment with something in-game and they look at how they can change it and make it better. it doesn't matter that no one asked for tenacity specifically or the combination of tenacity/matchmaking and penalties. as a company, they have to try to determine what is going to be the best solution for everyone that wants to play pvp, but can't because of this, that or the other. they have access to metrics and feedback that we don't here on the forums. go watch the last twitch stream where gentlemancrush is discussing the pvp changes and how passionate he is about what he is doing. it's pretty evident to me. ultimately, decisions are finalized based on many facets that you and i aren't privy to.
and ultimately, that doesn't mean that the devs aren't listening or haven't read every single thing that has been posted on the forums. they have access to all of it.
You know, I understand some of your points and if this were August or September of last year I would agree with you, the problem I have is I see the effect first hand everyday of the lack of PVP content and lack of incentive to PVP.
The PVP Community in this game, as you have said, has survived since open beta, but VERY few players remain (like myself) from OB. If these changes go live, I see MASSIVE consequences as I mentioned in my Post:
1) CWs - dead class
2) DCs - dead class
3) Remades - impossible to organize
Ontop of this, the T2.5 gear is HAMSTER, because the feedback players have been giving about the lack of appropriate/desired stats has either been heard and ignored, or not heard at all. The T2 items are BETTER than the T2.5 items.
Ontop of that, NOT having announced any new pvp maps, and any new pvp gametypes is VERY disheartening, while I cross my fingers and hope this is a Mod 3 thing, I also know that if they do not do pvp justice this module, there will be a mass exodus from many of the "old" players (meaning players who have been here 6 months+).
Ontop of that, the PVP community has been CRYING out for Foundry PVP to which the DEVs respond they are not pursuing that avenue. The BIGGEST asset this game has is foundry, I have played Foundry Dungeons that BLOW the current ones out of the water. I would imagine that Foundry PVP maps would be the same.
What I would ask YOU melodywhr to do is get in touch with a DEV or even Sominator and make this things apparent to him or them, so we can all atleast have acknowledgement that THIS feedback is heard. Also while I get the DEVs have this as a creative outlet AND that they have other sources of "data" as you put it, Players like myself ALSO have other sources of "data" the DEVs are not privy to as well - meaning sincere feedback from players who DONT take time to communicate to the DEVs.
While SOME of my posts represent my own opinions, other posts like this represent a LARGE majority of the pvp community. Heck you can even call me the "PVP CM" if you want. At the end of the day, there are not alot of players who have logged more PVP hours than I have, there are handfuls of players left who have all given the same feedback...
I personally LIKE tenacity, I think it has potential, I like matchmaking AND leaver penalty. What I dont like is that CWs control is worthless in PVP. DCs heals are worthless in PVP and premades (the backbones of PVP) are going extinct not only because of lack of content/incentive but also this leaver penalty will be what finally wipes it out.
ALL this, I am STILL hopeful with the game or I wouldnt be here anymore, but I know ALOT of players are at the end of their rope with this game and PVP and I want to present "here is why" to the DEVs so they can address the complaints of the community and hopefully do something about it.
Thanks
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You know, I understand some of your points and if this were August or September of last year I would agree with you, the problem I have is I see the effect first hand everyday of the lack of PVP content and lack of incentive to PVP.
The PVP Community in this game, as you have said, has survived since open beta, but VERY few players remain (like myself) from OB. If these changes go live, I see MASSIVE consequences as I mentioned in my Post:
1) CWs - dead class
2) DCs - dead class
3) Remades - impossible to organize
Ontop of this, the T2.5 gear is HAMSTER, because the feedback players have been giving about the lack of appropriate/desired stats has either been heard and ignored, or not heard at all. The T2 items are BETTER than the T2.5 items.
Ontop of that, NOT having announced any new pvp maps, and any new pvp gametypes is VERY disheartening, while I cross my fingers and hope this is a Mod 3 thing, I also know that if they do not do pvp justice this module, there will be a mass exodus from many of the "old" players (meaning players who have been here 6 months+).
Ontop of that, the PVP community has been CRYING out for Foundry PVP to which the DEVs respond they are not pursuing that avenue. The BIGGEST asset this game has is foundry, I have played Foundry Dungeons that BLOW the current ones out of the water. I would imagine that Foundry PVP maps would be the same.
What I would ask YOU melodywhr to do is get in touch with a DEV or even Sominator and make this things apparent to him or them, so we can all atleast have acknowledgement that THIS feedback is heard. Also while I get the DEVs have this as a creative outlet AND that they have other sources of "data" as you put it, Players like myself ALSO have other sources of "data" the DEVs are not privy to as well - meaning sincere feedback from players who DONT take time to communicate to the DEVs.
While SOME of my posts represent my own opinions, other posts like this represent a LARGE majority of the pvp community. Heck you can even call me the "PVP CM" if you want. At the end of the day, there are not alot of players who have logged more PVP hours than I have, there are handfuls of players left who have all given the same feedback...
I personally LIKE tenacity, I think it has potential, I like matchmaking AND leaver penalty. What I dont like is that CWs control is worthless in PVP. DCs heals are worthless in PVP and premades (the backbones of PVP) are going extinct not only because of lack of content/incentive but also this leaver penalty will be what finally wipes it out.
ALL this, I am STILL hopeful with the game or I wouldnt be here anymore, but I know ALOT of players are at the end of their rope with this game and PVP and I want to present "here is why" to the DEVs so they can address the complaints of the community and hopefully do something about it.
Thanks
Well said! Good points about adding new content instead for example new PvP Battlegrounds or other forms of PvP example Capture the Flag.
Coldly said the community is not united in wishing a matchmaking in the first place. I never wanted it and neither wanted my casual real life friend any matchmaking to this game. Thank god Gauntlgrym does not have matchmaking and I will enjoy killing low gs players still in Gauntlgrym as it should be!
I dont like this attitude that melodywhr thinks we are one happy community singing cumbaja with matchmaking system. That said I accept the changes and adapt to them. Stop saying we are all good community members wanting matchmaking and my perspective on high gs killing low gs players is same as this evil Werewolf logic regarding morals of killing:
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well said! Good points about adding new content instead for example new PvP Battlegrounds or other forms of PvP example Capture the Flag.
Coldly said the community is not united in wishing a matchmaking in the first place. I never wanted it and neither wanted my casual real life friend any matchmaking to this game. Thank god Gauntlgrym does not have matchmaking and I will enjoy killing low gs players still in Gauntlgrym as it should be!
I dont like this attitude that melodywhr thinks we are one happy community singing cumbaja with matchmaking system. That said I accept the changes and adapt to them. Stop saying we are all good community members wanting matchmaking and my perspective on high gs killing low gs players is same as this evil Werewolf logic regarding morals of killing:
Errm... everybody has their match. Don't get too proud cause you kill newbies.
I am honestly surprised that so few have touched on the prospect of a "penalty" for leaving a match will now encroach on PvE content. Leave and be unable to queue up for dungeon or skirmish content for 30 minutes? Are you kidding me?
If this goes live then the game will fundamentally become more and more based around PvP which accounts for maybe 5% of the total content. Penalties as a whole are entirely counter productive to begin with but forcing them upon players and forcing them further upon all aspects of multi playing modes is a game killer and I am truly astounded that the developers would even consider such. This is attempting to fix the game by breaking the game.
I also don't understand just how they came up with this ELO system for "ranking" players when all they really need to do was modify the queueing process. It seems that a choice was made to implement the more difficult to develop solution that will get lesser results. Again I am truly astounded.
Tenacity is the one thing I think k truly can have potential but it is being implemented improperly and as has been stated it will destroy certain classes in PvP. Personally I think they should have looked to making the deflection stout directly counter the crit stat similar to how armor pen counters defense. This way there is no need to code in a new stat and there is no nerf to control durations while at the same time spike damage gets reduced which was the entire point for tenacity to begin with.
What I would ask YOU melodywhr to do is get in touch with a DEV or even Sominator and make this things apparent to him or them, so we can all atleast have acknowledgement that THIS feedback is heard. Also while I get the DEVs have this as a creative outlet AND that they have other sources of "data" as you put it, Players like myself ALSO have other sources of "data" the DEVs are not privy to as well - meaning sincere feedback from players who DONT take time to communicate to the DEVs.
i'm a community moderator. it's not part of my job to push any particular agenda. the best that we can do is the same as you and that's provide our feedback here on the forums and trust that the developers will consider what we're saying. ultimately, PWE will make their decisions based on a number of internal points that we just don't have access to.
What I dont like is that CWs control is worthless in PVP.
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Some examples of how the PvP neverwinter is totally flawed and could not be called PvP.
The bad thing in Neverwinter PvP:
If one group decides not to fight and not get any of towers the match takes 6min to be ended this without even having fought anyone.
Most players do not attend the forum and someone who calls himself a "PvP community" does not represent the majority of players.
This new system is more a penalty for entering the PvP and not to leave the PvP on the grounds that any good player is already tired of repeating, "Unbalanced Classes!".
One thing that makes the difference are the enchantments that do not count as "Gear Score", an example: A player with "13k gs" with lesser enchantment and another with "13k gs" with prefect enchantments, it is obvious that what has perfect enchantments have much advantage over another player.
And the last reason I think most good players will agree with me is that the "PvP" is not "PvP" but a race.
--
Good players want to fight against players of equivalent where that will differentiate level the match is the skill of each player and not the classes that he chose, or how much time or money invested that particular player. The PvP neverwinter seems to be done so that "some" inflate their egos.
Some suggestions:
Place a option where players create groups and give them names and these groups appear in a list where other groups might challenge them.
Block inventory and character window would prevent the player to swap their equipment while in battle.
Confirm the enchantments of weapons and armor as "Gear Score".
I agree that GS should not be factored into the matchmaking system. I am not part of a PvP guild, but PvP is always my main focus in every single online game I play. If there is no PvP system, I don't play it, period. That being said, I pug domination every single day. Sometimes I duo queue with other skilled players I have met in domination matches. My GS is sitting right at 13k. Not really high, but not really low. I encounter PvE specced/geared players on a regular basis in domination that just don't have a clue what they are doing. From HR's spamming rain of arrows and thorn ward to GWF's that can't seem to land a single prone on me, despite me being practically in their face for entire fights. Many of these players are very well geared. You can generally tell by the high amount of damage they deal while also taking massive amounts of damage. Gearscore is not an accurate representation of a players effectiveness and/or skill level.
On the subject of a deserter penalty. I see a lot of people complaining this will be implemented. Well, these are likely the players who quit matches on a regular basis. I don't care what you say, if you leave a match in progress, for any reason, you deserve to be locked out for 30 minutes. Don't like it? Don't PvP. A deserter penalty is definitely a good idea. Especially with matchmaking and a ladder system just around the corner. To a true PvP player, PvP matters just as much as PvE does to those of you who love running easy *** dungeons with easy *** scripted encounters where the enemies do the exact same thing every time you run the dungeon. You wouldn't want a PvPer coming into your DD 5 man group and bailing on you in the middle of a boss fight, so don't do that to PvP players in PvP matches.
What I would really like to see implemented is a lock-out on queuing with more than 2 people. I.E. you can either solo queue for a domination match, duo queue, or 5 man queue, but nothing else. Match 5 man premade teams with 5 man premade teams only, and solo/duo queue pugs with solo/duo queue pugs only. I think this would cut down on pugstomping, prevent win trading, and eliminate the pug vs premade factor.
lol why '''the ranking within the elo system will initially be behind the scenes.''' what is reason? we want to see it and fight or higer ranks give some purpose to play pvp its just lame to not show ranked players
how do you even que with someone in a party if all are different rankings haha.
which you can`t see
it takes an avarage then ? hahaha
but why hide those numbers, lots of people just want to see it.
only ones that don`t want to see are the sometimesplaypvpplayers
they`re not forced to look at it.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Devs Wrote: Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Then what is the point of Tenacity? It's supposed to offer CC resist and now you're taking away the CC resist? Just take away the stat! Not a single CW armor set has Deflection, which is now your best defensive stat due to healing regeneration.
Then what is the point of Tenacity? It's supposed to offer CC resist and now you're taking away the CC resist? Just take away the stat! Not a single CW armor set has Deflection, which is now your best defensive stat due to healing regeneration.
The point seems to be to focus PvP roles more. So CW gets to do more control than anyone else because they can ignore some of the CC resist from Tenacity. Maybe other classes will also have similar advantages. This brings some differentiation into PvP combat.
Then what is the point of Tenacity? It's supposed to offer CC resist and now you're taking away the CC resist? Just take away the stat! Not a single CW armor set has Deflection, which is now your best defensive stat due to healing regeneration.
Look at a simple comparison between GWF's and CW's.
GWF's have high defense, high damage, high mobility and high control. They are beasts in PvP, plain and simple.
CW's have low defense, high damage, low to medium mobility and high control. They can do some damage in PvP but are also fairly squishy and vulnerable.
Moving a GWF from high contol to low control still leaves them with high defense, high damage and high mobility. A Control Wizard with no control is dead. A GWF can close the gap, and burn you down at-will if you have no means of control to help keep him off of you.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
lol why '''the ranking within the elo system will initially be behind the scenes.''' what is reason? we want to see it and fight or higer ranks give some purpose to play pvp its just lame to not show ranked players
The penalty system isn't going to make alot of us even want to do much PvP anymore, i mean why should i have to stay if my team has obviously lost, or if im having 0 fun whatsoever? Is fighting 3 perma rouges with perfect vorpals going to be a blast? No, it's frustrating and downright annoying to even attempt to play against.
No, ranking will not solve anything, people will then just lose on purpose....look at any decent game that uses ELO at all. If i can only get glort from PvP why would i make my fights harder? Alot of people just do it to farm glory and they will lose on purpose (just like in other games), so that they can farm low level players.
Forcing people to "play" is just going to drive people in mass.
It is funny/disgusting how people want everything to be 'fair' and easier for them. Fighting perma rogues tough? Change tactics to something that will work. God forbid you have to hit 'P' and step out of your comfort zone to find success.
'Why should I have to stay when my team has obviously lost?' Eww. You stay because THAT'S THE GAME. You only want to finish if your team is winning??! THAT'S the reason we need a penalty for quitters. Stay 'til the job's done.
Yucko
*Legit Community*
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
It is funny/disgusting how people want everything to be 'fair' and easier for them. Fighting perma rogues tough? Change tactics to something that will work. God forbid you have to hit 'P' and step out of your comfort zone to find success.
'Why should I have to stay when my team has obviously lost?' Eww. You stay because THAT'S THE GAME. You only want to finish if your team is winning??! THAT'S the reason we need a penalty for quitters. Stay 'til the job's done.
Yucko
Nothing wrong with wanting a fair fight in PvP. To not end up constantly facing players who's gear effectively makes them several levels beyond your own. We aren't talking skill, just gear. When you effectively have no chance to win, what's the point? It becomes a meaningless/pointless exercise in futility. That's not well designed PvP, and it should be boring for both sides unless someone is seeking a childish ego boost by beating up on others that have to chance to stand against them.
It is funny/disgusting how people want everything to be 'fair' and easier for them. Fighting perma rogues tough? Change tactics to something that will work. God forbid you have to hit 'P' and step out of your comfort zone to find success.
'Why should I have to stay when my team has obviously lost?' Eww. You stay because THAT'S THE GAME. You only want to finish if your team is winning??! THAT'S the reason we need a penalty for quitters. Stay 'til the job's done.
Yucko
Yes... believe it or not i actually have a preference on what i find fun and what isnt, holy **** that's so new! How is fighting something i cant ever see, let alone tw of them, time and time again fun? If i dont find it fun, why should i ahve to stick around especially if my friends with me dont want to either? Oh wait, i should sit and stay so you can get a bunch of free easy kills, have fun "pwing nubz" with your "skilled" ways, and farm us for free glory. Same as why i dont feel like staying in a game vs 18k+ GS when some of my allies arnt even 9k, seriously why? So ya, lets just have them camp our spawn, not letting us do anything and lets try to "play" that unplayable game for a good 10 minutes until i can finally "leave" without being a "loser".
As for winning, i really, really do not give a flying monkeys *** if i win or lose, if you never lose you never learn anything. The point of a game also isnt to make the player want to pull his/her hair out, if you're not having fun, especially if your whole team isnt, why should we be penalized for leaving?
God forbid i can play a PvP game without having to be stun/prone spammed or having 2 perma rouges just walk around killing whatever they feel like as they run away to hide. But hey, what do i know.
Nothing wrong with wanting a fair fight in PvP. To not end up constantly facing players who's gear effectively makes them several levels beyond your own. We aren't talking skill, just gear. When you effectively have no chance to win, what's the point? It becomes a meaningless/pointless exercise in futility. That's not well designed PvP, and it should be boring for both sides unless someone is seeking a childish ego boost by beating up on others that have to chance to stand against them.
Ok, here's how PW should make fair fights. Take away everyone's gear and allow only 2 powers to be used. The same powers for everyone. And make it all 1 class with the same HP.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Either GS, skill, luck, teamwork or a combination of those is going to win. You are asking for the impossible. But people that lose when facing a greater force and complain about it and whine until they get everyone else nerfed doesn't help. Sometimes, you just lose to someone that's better at one of the aforementioned qualities.
And Tenacity isn't going to fix it, it may help, but there literally is no fix.
*Legit Community*
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Yes... believe it or not i actually have a preference on what i find fun and what isnt, holy **** that's so new! How is fighting something i cant ever see, let alone tw of them, time and time again fun? If i dont find it fun, why should i ahve to stick around especially if my friends with me dont want to either? Oh wait, i should sit and stay so you can get a bunch of free easy kills, have fun "pwing nubz" with your "skilled" ways, and farm us for free glory. Same as why i dont feel like staying in a game vs 18k+ GS when some of my allies arnt even 9k, seriously why? So ya, lets just have them camp our spawn, not letting us do anything and lets try to "play" that unplayable game for a good 10 minutes until i can finally "leave" without being a "loser".
As for winning, i really, really do not give a flying monkeys *** if i win or lose, if you never lose you never learn anything. The point of a game also isnt to make the player want to pull his/her hair out, if you're not having fun, especially if your whole team isnt, why should we be penalized for leaving?
God forbid i can play a PvP game without having to be stun/prone spammed or having 2 perma rouges just walk around killing whatever they feel like as they run away to hide. But hey, what do i know.
Congrats on finding the Neverwinter equivalent of, 'I'm taking my ball and going home.'
*Legit Community*
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Ok, here's how PW should make fair fights. Take away everyone's gear and allow only 2 powers to be used. The same powers for everyone. And make it all 1 class with the same HP.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Either GS, skill, luck, teamwork or a combination of those is going to win. You are asking for the impossible. But people that lose when facing a greater force and complain about it and whine until they get everyone else nerfed doesn't help. Sometimes, you just lose to someone that's better at one of the aforementioned qualities.
And Tenacity isn't going to fix it, it may help, but there literally is no fix.
Being overwhelmed by a better team is not unfair. Luck tends to sway from side to side, you'll have good and bad luck, it balances itself out. No one's asking for everyone to be nerfed, and your reaction is laughable. What people do want is to go into a match with at least a chance of winning. Sure, you will run into teams that work better together, but guess what... you learn from seeing that, from facing it, in person.
What you don't learn from, what isn't fun, and what people don't want is a fight against overpowered, overgeared and/or broken mechanics that creates a situation where they have absolutely no chance of winning, and, quite honestly, the flip side of that should be true as well. Most people don't find predetermined matches to be enjoyable. It's boring. Stomping another team that struggles to score the minimum points is not fun. It's stupid. So is being stomped and getting no Glory because you didn't score the minimum points.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Either GS, skill, luck, teamwork or a combination of those is going to win. You are asking for the impossible. But people that lose when facing a greater force and complain about it and whine until they get everyone else nerfed doesn't help. Sometimes, you just lose to someone that's better at one of the aforementioned qualities.
I've been on both sides of the GS issue and despite what you believe it is no fun for either side. Forcing folks to be fodder and yelling at them to LTP isn't going to make it more fun or keep people playing.
The new system is kind of like 2 people holding someone down while you give them a wedgie.
Comments
I totally agree with everything you've said in this thread and I hope you keep posting a lot.
Jugger Conq GF
....
I can't speak for him/her, but I don't the point as that gs is absolutely meaningless. Just that it is not as meaningful as commonly believed. The massive gaps in gear score are mirrored by the massive gaps in skill. The game as it stands now IS domination. As far as the 18k bis gwf vs the 18k bis cw of equal skill it really comes down to who hits who first, who has the initiative. People forget about initiative.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Thats kinda strange in my point of view.
You know, I understand some of your points and if this were August or September of last year I would agree with you, the problem I have is I see the effect first hand everyday of the lack of PVP content and lack of incentive to PVP.
The PVP Community in this game, as you have said, has survived since open beta, but VERY few players remain (like myself) from OB. If these changes go live, I see MASSIVE consequences as I mentioned in my Post:
1) CWs - dead class
2) DCs - dead class
3) Remades - impossible to organize
Ontop of this, the T2.5 gear is HAMSTER, because the feedback players have been giving about the lack of appropriate/desired stats has either been heard and ignored, or not heard at all. The T2 items are BETTER than the T2.5 items.
Ontop of that, NOT having announced any new pvp maps, and any new pvp gametypes is VERY disheartening, while I cross my fingers and hope this is a Mod 3 thing, I also know that if they do not do pvp justice this module, there will be a mass exodus from many of the "old" players (meaning players who have been here 6 months+).
Ontop of that, the PVP community has been CRYING out for Foundry PVP to which the DEVs respond they are not pursuing that avenue. The BIGGEST asset this game has is foundry, I have played Foundry Dungeons that BLOW the current ones out of the water. I would imagine that Foundry PVP maps would be the same.
What I would ask YOU melodywhr to do is get in touch with a DEV or even Sominator and make this things apparent to him or them, so we can all atleast have acknowledgement that THIS feedback is heard. Also while I get the DEVs have this as a creative outlet AND that they have other sources of "data" as you put it, Players like myself ALSO have other sources of "data" the DEVs are not privy to as well - meaning sincere feedback from players who DONT take time to communicate to the DEVs.
While SOME of my posts represent my own opinions, other posts like this represent a LARGE majority of the pvp community. Heck you can even call me the "PVP CM" if you want. At the end of the day, there are not alot of players who have logged more PVP hours than I have, there are handfuls of players left who have all given the same feedback...
I personally LIKE tenacity, I think it has potential, I like matchmaking AND leaver penalty. What I dont like is that CWs control is worthless in PVP. DCs heals are worthless in PVP and premades (the backbones of PVP) are going extinct not only because of lack of content/incentive but also this leaver penalty will be what finally wipes it out.
ALL this, I am STILL hopeful with the game or I wouldnt be here anymore, but I know ALOT of players are at the end of their rope with this game and PVP and I want to present "here is why" to the DEVs so they can address the complaints of the community and hopefully do something about it.
Thanks
Coldly said the community is not united in wishing a matchmaking in the first place. I never wanted it and neither wanted my casual real life friend any matchmaking to this game. Thank god Gauntlgrym does not have matchmaking and I will enjoy killing low gs players still in Gauntlgrym as it should be!
I dont like this attitude that melodywhr thinks we are one happy community singing cumbaja with matchmaking system. That said I accept the changes and adapt to them. Stop saying we are all good community members wanting matchmaking and my perspective on high gs killing low gs players is same as this evil Werewolf logic regarding morals of killing:
Errm... everybody has their match. Don't get too proud cause you kill newbies.
If this goes live then the game will fundamentally become more and more based around PvP which accounts for maybe 5% of the total content. Penalties as a whole are entirely counter productive to begin with but forcing them upon players and forcing them further upon all aspects of multi playing modes is a game killer and I am truly astounded that the developers would even consider such. This is attempting to fix the game by breaking the game.
I also don't understand just how they came up with this ELO system for "ranking" players when all they really need to do was modify the queueing process. It seems that a choice was made to implement the more difficult to develop solution that will get lesser results. Again I am truly astounded.
Tenacity is the one thing I think k truly can have potential but it is being implemented improperly and as has been stated it will destroy certain classes in PvP. Personally I think they should have looked to making the deflection stout directly counter the crit stat similar to how armor pen counters defense. This way there is no need to code in a new stat and there is no nerf to control durations while at the same time spike damage gets reduced which was the entire point for tenacity to begin with.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
i'm a community moderator. it's not part of my job to push any particular agenda. the best that we can do is the same as you and that's provide our feedback here on the forums and trust that the developers will consider what we're saying. ultimately, PWE will make their decisions based on a number of internal points that we just don't have access to.
then you'll be interested in this:
The bad thing in Neverwinter PvP:
If one group decides not to fight and not get any of towers the match takes 6min to be ended this without even having fought anyone.
Most players do not attend the forum and someone who calls himself a "PvP community" does not represent the majority of players.
This new system is more a penalty for entering the PvP and not to leave the PvP on the grounds that any good player is already tired of repeating, "Unbalanced Classes!".
One thing that makes the difference are the enchantments that do not count as "Gear Score", an example: A player with "13k gs" with lesser enchantment and another with "13k gs" with prefect enchantments, it is obvious that what has perfect enchantments have much advantage over another player.
And the last reason I think most good players will agree with me is that the "PvP" is not "PvP" but a race.
--
Good players want to fight against players of equivalent where that will differentiate level the match is the skill of each player and not the classes that he chose, or how much time or money invested that particular player. The PvP neverwinter seems to be done so that "some" inflate their egos.
Some suggestions:
Place a option where players create groups and give them names and these groups appear in a list where other groups might challenge them.
Block inventory and character window would prevent the player to swap their equipment while in battle.
Confirm the enchantments of weapons and armor as "Gear Score".
the ranking within the elo system will initially be behind the scenes.
On the subject of a deserter penalty. I see a lot of people complaining this will be implemented. Well, these are likely the players who quit matches on a regular basis. I don't care what you say, if you leave a match in progress, for any reason, you deserve to be locked out for 30 minutes. Don't like it? Don't PvP. A deserter penalty is definitely a good idea. Especially with matchmaking and a ladder system just around the corner. To a true PvP player, PvP matters just as much as PvE does to those of you who love running easy *** dungeons with easy *** scripted encounters where the enemies do the exact same thing every time you run the dungeon. You wouldn't want a PvPer coming into your DD 5 man group and bailing on you in the middle of a boss fight, so don't do that to PvP players in PvP matches.
What I would really like to see implemented is a lock-out on queuing with more than 2 people. I.E. you can either solo queue for a domination match, duo queue, or 5 man queue, but nothing else. Match 5 man premade teams with 5 man premade teams only, and solo/duo queue pugs with solo/duo queue pugs only. I think this would cut down on pugstomping, prevent win trading, and eliminate the pug vs premade factor.
which you can`t see
it takes an avarage then ? hahaha
but why hide those numbers, lots of people just want to see it.
only ones that don`t want to see are the sometimesplaypvpplayers
they`re not forced to look at it.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Then what is the point of Tenacity? It's supposed to offer CC resist and now you're taking away the CC resist? Just take away the stat! Not a single CW armor set has Deflection, which is now your best defensive stat due to healing regeneration.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Look at a simple comparison between GWF's and CW's.
GWF's have high defense, high damage, high mobility and high control. They are beasts in PvP, plain and simple.
CW's have low defense, high damage, low to medium mobility and high control. They can do some damage in PvP but are also fairly squishy and vulnerable.
Moving a GWF from high contol to low control still leaves them with high defense, high damage and high mobility. A Control Wizard with no control is dead. A GWF can close the gap, and burn you down at-will if you have no means of control to help keep him off of you.
+1 please make ranking visible.
No, ranking will not solve anything, people will then just lose on purpose....look at any decent game that uses ELO at all. If i can only get glort from PvP why would i make my fights harder? Alot of people just do it to farm glory and they will lose on purpose (just like in other games), so that they can farm low level players.
Forcing people to "play" is just going to drive people in mass.
'Why should I have to stay when my team has obviously lost?' Eww. You stay because THAT'S THE GAME. You only want to finish if your team is winning??! THAT'S the reason we need a penalty for quitters. Stay 'til the job's done.
Yucko
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Nothing wrong with wanting a fair fight in PvP. To not end up constantly facing players who's gear effectively makes them several levels beyond your own. We aren't talking skill, just gear. When you effectively have no chance to win, what's the point? It becomes a meaningless/pointless exercise in futility. That's not well designed PvP, and it should be boring for both sides unless someone is seeking a childish ego boost by beating up on others that have to chance to stand against them.
Yes... believe it or not i actually have a preference on what i find fun and what isnt, holy **** that's so new! How is fighting something i cant ever see, let alone tw of them, time and time again fun? If i dont find it fun, why should i ahve to stick around especially if my friends with me dont want to either? Oh wait, i should sit and stay so you can get a bunch of free easy kills, have fun "pwing nubz" with your "skilled" ways, and farm us for free glory. Same as why i dont feel like staying in a game vs 18k+ GS when some of my allies arnt even 9k, seriously why? So ya, lets just have them camp our spawn, not letting us do anything and lets try to "play" that unplayable game for a good 10 minutes until i can finally "leave" without being a "loser".
As for winning, i really, really do not give a flying monkeys *** if i win or lose, if you never lose you never learn anything. The point of a game also isnt to make the player want to pull his/her hair out, if you're not having fun, especially if your whole team isnt, why should we be penalized for leaving?
God forbid i can play a PvP game without having to be stun/prone spammed or having 2 perma rouges just walk around killing whatever they feel like as they run away to hide. But hey, what do i know.
Ok, here's how PW should make fair fights. Take away everyone's gear and allow only 2 powers to be used. The same powers for everyone. And make it all 1 class with the same HP.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Either GS, skill, luck, teamwork or a combination of those is going to win. You are asking for the impossible. But people that lose when facing a greater force and complain about it and whine until they get everyone else nerfed doesn't help. Sometimes, you just lose to someone that's better at one of the aforementioned qualities.
And Tenacity isn't going to fix it, it may help, but there literally is no fix.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Congrats on finding the Neverwinter equivalent of, 'I'm taking my ball and going home.'
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Instead of quitting, change your tactics and use powers that achieve those two things.
Sorry, that was thinking outside the box, you're right, quit and then complain on a forum.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Being overwhelmed by a better team is not unfair. Luck tends to sway from side to side, you'll have good and bad luck, it balances itself out. No one's asking for everyone to be nerfed, and your reaction is laughable. What people do want is to go into a match with at least a chance of winning. Sure, you will run into teams that work better together, but guess what... you learn from seeing that, from facing it, in person.
What you don't learn from, what isn't fun, and what people don't want is a fight against overpowered, overgeared and/or broken mechanics that creates a situation where they have absolutely no chance of winning, and, quite honestly, the flip side of that should be true as well. Most people don't find predetermined matches to be enjoyable. It's boring. Stomping another team that struggles to score the minimum points is not fun. It's stupid. So is being stomped and getting no Glory because you didn't score the minimum points.
I've been on both sides of the GS issue and despite what you believe it is no fun for either side. Forcing folks to be fodder and yelling at them to LTP isn't going to make it more fun or keep people playing.
The new system is kind of like 2 people holding someone down while you give them a wedgie.