It is funny/disgusting how people want everything to be 'fair' and easier for them. Fighting perma rogues tough? Change tactics to something that will work. God forbid you have to hit 'P' and step out of your comfort zone to find success.
'Why should I have to stay when my team has obviously lost?' Eww. You stay because THAT'S THE GAME. You only want to finish if your team is winning??! THAT'S the reason we need a penalty for quitters. Stay 'til the job's done.
Yucko
Nothing wrong with wanting a fair fight in PvP. To not end up constantly facing players who's gear effectively makes them several levels beyond your own. We aren't talking skill, just gear. When you effectively have no chance to win, what's the point? It becomes a meaningless/pointless exercise in futility. That's not well designed PvP, and it should be boring for both sides unless someone is seeking a childish ego boost by beating up on others that have to chance to stand against them.
It is funny/disgusting how people want everything to be 'fair' and easier for them. Fighting perma rogues tough? Change tactics to something that will work. God forbid you have to hit 'P' and step out of your comfort zone to find success.
'Why should I have to stay when my team has obviously lost?' Eww. You stay because THAT'S THE GAME. You only want to finish if your team is winning??! THAT'S the reason we need a penalty for quitters. Stay 'til the job's done.
Yucko
Yes... believe it or not i actually have a preference on what i find fun and what isnt, holy **** that's so new! How is fighting something i cant ever see, let alone tw of them, time and time again fun? If i dont find it fun, why should i ahve to stick around especially if my friends with me dont want to either? Oh wait, i should sit and stay so you can get a bunch of free easy kills, have fun "pwing nubz" with your "skilled" ways, and farm us for free glory. Same as why i dont feel like staying in a game vs 18k+ GS when some of my allies arnt even 9k, seriously why? So ya, lets just have them camp our spawn, not letting us do anything and lets try to "play" that unplayable game for a good 10 minutes until i can finally "leave" without being a "loser".
As for winning, i really, really do not give a flying monkeys *** if i win or lose, if you never lose you never learn anything. The point of a game also isnt to make the player want to pull his/her hair out, if you're not having fun, especially if your whole team isnt, why should we be penalized for leaving?
God forbid i can play a PvP game without having to be stun/prone spammed or having 2 perma rouges just walk around killing whatever they feel like as they run away to hide. But hey, what do i know.
Nothing wrong with wanting a fair fight in PvP. To not end up constantly facing players who's gear effectively makes them several levels beyond your own. We aren't talking skill, just gear. When you effectively have no chance to win, what's the point? It becomes a meaningless/pointless exercise in futility. That's not well designed PvP, and it should be boring for both sides unless someone is seeking a childish ego boost by beating up on others that have to chance to stand against them.
Ok, here's how PW should make fair fights. Take away everyone's gear and allow only 2 powers to be used. The same powers for everyone. And make it all 1 class with the same HP.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Either GS, skill, luck, teamwork or a combination of those is going to win. You are asking for the impossible. But people that lose when facing a greater force and complain about it and whine until they get everyone else nerfed doesn't help. Sometimes, you just lose to someone that's better at one of the aforementioned qualities.
And Tenacity isn't going to fix it, it may help, but there literally is no fix.
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Yes... believe it or not i actually have a preference on what i find fun and what isnt, holy **** that's so new! How is fighting something i cant ever see, let alone tw of them, time and time again fun? If i dont find it fun, why should i ahve to stick around especially if my friends with me dont want to either? Oh wait, i should sit and stay so you can get a bunch of free easy kills, have fun "pwing nubz" with your "skilled" ways, and farm us for free glory. Same as why i dont feel like staying in a game vs 18k+ GS when some of my allies arnt even 9k, seriously why? So ya, lets just have them camp our spawn, not letting us do anything and lets try to "play" that unplayable game for a good 10 minutes until i can finally "leave" without being a "loser".
As for winning, i really, really do not give a flying monkeys *** if i win or lose, if you never lose you never learn anything. The point of a game also isnt to make the player want to pull his/her hair out, if you're not having fun, especially if your whole team isnt, why should we be penalized for leaving?
God forbid i can play a PvP game without having to be stun/prone spammed or having 2 perma rouges just walk around killing whatever they feel like as they run away to hide. But hey, what do i know.
Congrats on finding the Neverwinter equivalent of, 'I'm taking my ball and going home.'
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Ok, here's how PW should make fair fights. Take away everyone's gear and allow only 2 powers to be used. The same powers for everyone. And make it all 1 class with the same HP.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Either GS, skill, luck, teamwork or a combination of those is going to win. You are asking for the impossible. But people that lose when facing a greater force and complain about it and whine until they get everyone else nerfed doesn't help. Sometimes, you just lose to someone that's better at one of the aforementioned qualities.
And Tenacity isn't going to fix it, it may help, but there literally is no fix.
Being overwhelmed by a better team is not unfair. Luck tends to sway from side to side, you'll have good and bad luck, it balances itself out. No one's asking for everyone to be nerfed, and your reaction is laughable. What people do want is to go into a match with at least a chance of winning. Sure, you will run into teams that work better together, but guess what... you learn from seeing that, from facing it, in person.
What you don't learn from, what isn't fun, and what people don't want is a fight against overpowered, overgeared and/or broken mechanics that creates a situation where they have absolutely no chance of winning, and, quite honestly, the flip side of that should be true as well. Most people don't find predetermined matches to be enjoyable. It's boring. Stomping another team that struggles to score the minimum points is not fun. It's stupid. So is being stomped and getting no Glory because you didn't score the minimum points.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Either GS, skill, luck, teamwork or a combination of those is going to win. You are asking for the impossible. But people that lose when facing a greater force and complain about it and whine until they get everyone else nerfed doesn't help. Sometimes, you just lose to someone that's better at one of the aforementioned qualities.
I've been on both sides of the GS issue and despite what you believe it is no fun for either side. Forcing folks to be fodder and yelling at them to LTP isn't going to make it more fun or keep people playing.
The new system is kind of like 2 people holding someone down while you give them a wedgie.
Fact: Perma-stealth rogues need to 1) hit you with a power or two from time to time and 2) avoid taking damage.
Instead of quitting, change your tactics and use powers that achieve those two things.
Sorry, that was thinking outside the box, you're right, quit and then complain on a forum.
Tripple post, my my, posting in one too hard for you? Not to mention you're unable to read my post at all, so maybe try again before you write such a shallow responce.
Also you really should learn to read, at no point did i say i was quitting, i said it will drive people away since most people dont actually like to be forced to play a game. If you know you're going to lose in the next 5-6 turns in chess, do you concede
or do you sit there and play wasting both players time since you both know that You have lost?
I really dont get people like you at all, why are you so annoyed about winning/losing then if im not allowed to hate perma rouges?? You're trying to force everyone to play a game even though they KNOW they will probly lose, get ROLFstomped by spams or prones and what not, not to mention people that have 8k+ GS advantage on you.
If im not allowed to complain about perma rouges, or GWF spamming prones, then you are not allowed to force me to sit and play if i wish to concede, you still win i still lose, so what's the big deal to you? Didnt get enough kills? Didnt get to wipe peoples faces into the ground to boost your ego?
Also
1) Good for them, they get to hit me with a power while invisable, whats your point?
2) Right...and how do you plan on damaging an invisable target that can be anywhere?
The new system is matching teams based on GS and skill (with a little luck factor thrown in, sure). I don't understand how that is going create massive unbalance.
And as for learning from losing, that only happens if you don't rage quit from losing. Guess how I learned to kill 17k GS GWFs as an 10.9k HR? Trying different tactics. The same goes for defeating multiple perma-stealth rogues. Every class has flaws, exploit them. You can consider this a L2P thread if you want, the fact remains that sticking with your 1 bar of 3 powers and the same dailies and class features that hasn't worked for a given situation in the past is setting you up to repeat that outcome in the future.
*Legit Community*
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The new system is matching teams based on GS and skill (with a little luck factor thrown in, sure). I don't understand how that is going create massive unbalance.
And as for learning from losing, that only happens if you don't rage quit from losing. Guess how I learned to kill 17k GS GWFs as an 10.9k HR? Trying different tactics. The same goes for defeating multiple perma-stealth rogues. Every class has flaws, exploit them. You can consider this a L2P thread if you want, the fact remains that sticking with your 1 bar of 3 powers and the same dailies and class features that hasn't worked for a given situation in the past is setting you up to repeat that outcome in the future.
I can already call bull**** on your 17k GS kill for one simple reason. He wasnt any good at ALL if he did not kill you, it is impossible to do so without abusing a glitch.
A GWF has a combo that can KO anyone without you being able to get One single attack in, if they reach you, you are dead.
Not only that, once again you ignored everything i said because you know deep down, you have no good arguement agaist me at all, if you did you would stop deflecting and actually argue against my points.
But hey, spew more lies, i really dont care. You're just trying to show off now.
Tripple post, my my, posting in one too hard for you? Not to mention you're unable to read my post at all, so maybe try again before you write such a shallow responce.
Also you really should learn to read, at no point did i say i was quitting, i said it will drive people away since most people dont actually like to be forced to play a game. If you know you're going to lose in the next 5-6 turns in chess, do you concede
or do you sit there and play wasting both players time since you both know that You have lost?
I really dont get people like you at all, why are you so annoyed about winning/losing then if im not allowed to hate perma rouges?? You're trying to force everyone to play a game even though they KNOW they will probly lose, get ROLFstomped by spams or prones and what not, not to mention people that have 8k+ GS advantage on you.
If im not allowed to complain about perma rouges, or GWF spamming prones, then you are not allowed to force me to sit and play if i wish to concede, you still win i still lose, so what's the big deal to you? Didnt get enough kills? Didnt get to wipe peoples faces into the ground to boost your ego?
Also
1) Good for them, they get to hit me with a power while invisable, whats your point?
2) Right...and how do you plan on damaging an invisable target that can be anywhere?
I wasn't talking to you, child mind, but since you're being rude, I'll respond.
"Tripple post, my my, posting in one too hard for you? Not to mention you're unable to read my post at all, so maybe try again before you write such a shallow responce"
Tripple? Responce? You're command of the language is breathtaking. Shallow- that can't be the word you actually meant to use there. And it's pretty clear that posting in one post would be less difficult than three.
"If you know you're going to lose in the next 5-6 turns in chess, do you concede..." You don't play chess. This is a common argument tactic to get people to think you're smarter than you are by pretending you play a game known to be played by smart people. You're passionately whining about an MMO, society wrote you off years ago.
Also
1) if you damage the rogue, they can't perma-stealth which they need to do in order to hit you in order to perms-stealth, etc. (see below)
2) AOE and reflect damage are fairly easy, brainless ways to do damage to things you can't see.
Invisible, for the record.
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0
twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
I can already call bull**** on your 17k GS kill for one simple reason. He wasnt any good at ALL if he did not kill you, it is impossible to do so without abusing a glitch.
A GWF has a combo that can KO anyone without you being able to get One single attack in, if they reach you, you are dead.
Not only that, once again you ignored everything i said because you know deep down, you have no good arguement agaist me at all, if you did you would stop deflecting and actually argue against my points.
But hey, spew more lies, i really dont care. You're just trying to show off now.
Impatience is a ugly trait, as is calling someone a liar, regardless of how angry you sound when doing it.
As for the GWF takedown, it's a fairly simple but drawn out process. If you do at-will damage to him when he's not unstoppable, you're an idiot because you are just charging his meter for him. Stay away when he does rage, as an HR that's fairly simple with all the shifts you have. Knock prone and dps with some DoT (tene, PF) and whittle away. If you think about it, you are in charge of his meters. DoT neutralizes his regen.
I guess you do need to learn to play.
*Legit Community*
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1) if you damage the rogue, they can't perma-stealth which they need to do in order to hit you in order to perms-stealth, etc. (see below)
2) AOE and reflect damage are fairly easy, brainless ways to do damage to things you can't see.
Invisible, for the record.
aoe damage would work if u knew where he was but invisible kinda counters that. i even tried path of blades as suggested on these forums and found out that it was a waste. all they literally have to do is dodge-roll once and they r outside of the radius. also, u don't see damage numbers for when they r hit so there is not much point in using aoes to find them. basically just leaves u with 2 skills and 1 on a long cooldown that merely scratched them at best. also, they have 90% reduction in stealth loss from being hit so it takes more than a few to stop it and we have a skill for a free stealth bar every 12 seconds or less depending on recharge speed.
as for reflect, that requires the briartwine(?) enchant, specific companions, or fey thistle and all of which r build dependent.
also, any perma with a brain will not even stand on a node to tell u their approximate location. the ones that do can be easily dispatched but they also probably have lashing slotted as well if they actually came in close. it takes more than just doing damage, u have to be far more mobile than them to make sure they can't just run back to a pot and come back at full hp or stealth again. as permas r also rogues, do not forget that most, if not all, have our execution daily so they don't even need to fully kill you.
even when u do near-kill them, they either spam artifact + soulforge or run and come back at full hp. and they can easily run and come back without much hassle as they spam stealth. i even saw a perma just throw a single knife at me and i lost 8k damage from the malabog set i guess (he didn't even stay to do more than that).
and everyone should know that permas r right behind gwf's in being overpowered. i am a rogue myself and i know perma is rarely stopped. mostly everyone on the group will have 0 chance of defending a node from one which leaves it to the other rogue or gwf to play with them. rogue vs rogue, it's all about speed in successfully dealing damage and permas have the advantage over non-permas hence the issue. 99% of all rogues are perma for a reason.......
I wasn't talking to you, child mind, but since you're being rude, I'll respond.
"Tripple post, my my, posting in one too hard for you? Not to mention you're unable to read my post at all, so maybe try again before you write such a shallow responce"
Tripple? Responce? You're command of the language is breathtaking. Shallow- that can't be the word you actually meant to use there. And it's pretty clear that posting in one post would be less difficult than three.
"If you know you're going to lose in the next 5-6 turns in chess, do you concede..." You don't play chess. This is a common argument tactic to get people to think you're smarter than you are by pretending you play a game known to be played by smart people. You're passionately whining about an MMO, society wrote you off years ago.
Also
1) if you damage the rogue, they can't perma-stealth which they need to do in order to hit you in order to perms-stealth, etc. (see below)
2) AOE and reflect damage are fairly easy, brainless ways to do damage to things you can't see.
Invisible, for the record.
So let's see, you skipped more than 3/4 of what I said, and again only "answered" what you wanted to. Not only that, you didn't actually really answer anything, you just took the most immature root possible and called me a "child". If you want to be mature, learn to accept that people have different opinions and learn to actually state a real argument, until then, don't even bother replying, its a waste of our time.
Also, hint hint, if I've been "written off by society" for playing/discussing an MMO, then so have you.
Impatience is a ugly trait, as is calling someone a liar, regardless of how angry you sound when doing it.
As for the GWF takedown, it's a fairly simple but drawn out process. If you do at-will damage to him when he's not unstoppable, you're an idiot because you are just charging his meter for him. Stay away when he does rage, as an HR that's fairly simple with all the shifts you have. Knock prone and dps with some DoT (tene, PF) and whittle away. If you think about it, you are in charge of his meters. DoT neutralizes his regen.
I guess you do need to learn to play.
Calling someone a liar inst an ugly trait, I cant help that not everyone is honest. Not only that, you have Zero idea how i play, at all, or what class i even use. Never said i use at wills, you're again just making up assumptions to make yourself look better. Not only that, but you expect me to believe that somebody is stupid enough to "fight" with you for several minutes while you chip away at their Hp, one on one, and they never ever got close enough to attack you? If his GS was that high he would just ignore you and fight someone else if he was getting nowhere, that's like being proud of shooting a training dummy.
I know how to play very well, doesn't stop me having a preference, knowing when I've lost, knowing what is and isn't fun for me. But hey, go ahead and call me a child, it's not like you can form a real argument against me anyways.
Fyi. Who says the perma rouge is anywhere near you when you AoE? You have Zero idea where they could be, they can run and hide, heal, attack anywhere, cap anything, and you'll never know until its far too late. Invisibility is never balanced, hence why i never like fighting or using it.
aoe damage would work if u knew where he was but invisible kinda counters that. i even tried path of blades as suggested on these forums and found out that it was a waste. all they literally have to do is dodge-roll once and they r outside of the radius. also, u don't see damage numbers for when they r hit so there is not much point in using aoes to find them. basically just leaves u with 2 skills and 1 on a long cooldown that merely scratched them at best. also, they have 90% reduction in stealth loss from being hit so it takes more than a few to stop it and we have a skill for a free stealth bar every 12 seconds or less depending on recharge speed.
as for reflect, that requires the briartwine(?) enchant, specific companions, or fey thistle and all of which r build dependent.
also, any perma with a brain will not even stand on a node to tell u their approximate location. the ones that do can be easily dispatched but they also probably have lashing slotted as well if they actually came in close. it takes more than just doing damage, u have to be far more mobile than them to make sure they can't just run back to a pot and come back at full hp or stealth again. as permas r also rogues, do not forget that most, if not all, have our execution daily so they don't even need to fully kill you.
even when u do near-kill them, they either spam artifact + soulforge or run and come back at full hp. and they can easily run and come back without much hassle as they spam stealth. i even saw a perma just throw a single knife at me and i lost 8k damage from the malabog set i guess (he didn't even stay to do more than that).
and everyone should know that permas r right behind gwf's in being overpowered. i am a rogue myself and i know perma is rarely stopped. mostly everyone on the group will have 0 chance of defending a node from one which leaves it to the other rogue or gwf to play with them. rogue vs rogue, it's all about speed in successfully dealing damage and permas have the advantage over non-permas hence the issue. 99% of all rogues are perma for a reason.......
This comment is about pre tenacity.
Perma's are just annoying not deadly and not op. They need to use their encounters typically for abilities to stay in stealth with and itc. This makes them harder to kill but guess what they only have their at wills and a daily to kill you now too. Build some defenses into your toon so it's not a glass cannon, and get some regen.
The only rogues that are an actually threat as far as kills go are the ones that build for offense rather than stealth. A p. vorpal lashing blade is deadly, cloud of steel is not.
What perma's excel at is slipping into the back rank to contest home, then move off if they can't take whoever runs back to defend it till the defenders leave again making the enemy team have to constant defend their home point. Next to a gwf they're probably the best at taking the enemies home. This doesn't mean that they're op.
They can leap for one, or use shift at the right time and "dodge" it by running. Dodge doesn't mean " a dodge skill" it means to actually dodge the attack and not be affected by it.
Perma's are just annoying not deadly and not op. They need to use their encounters typically for abilities to stay in stealth with and itc. This makes them harder to kill but guess what they only have their at wills and a daily to kill you now too. Build some defenses into your toon so it's not a glass cannon, and get some regen.
The only rogues that are an actually threat as far as kills go are the ones that build for offense rather than stealth. A p. vorpal lashing blade is deadly, cloud of steel is not.
What perma's excel at is slipping into the back rank to contest home, then move off if they can't take whoever runs back to defend it till the defenders leave again making the enemy team have to constant defend their home point. Next to a gwf they're probably the best at taking the enemies home. This doesn't mean that they're op.
uhhhh, i'm deflect so i am already tanky and our at-wills are not that weak (in fact, duelist flurry will easily take a chunk off of anyone's hp if they stand still). not all permas slot all 3 of the stealth abilities and those with lashing are not gonna hit low on you unless u are extremely tanky yourself. some may not even have shadow strike, but it may not matter if u can't do enough hits to stop their stealth bar completely because once immunity ends, that bar is near-full anyways.
and i never said they just spammed knives all day and i have no idea how strong the at-wills r for whisperknife. they do come in for spike damage when they have immunity up and then run as soon as it ends.
as for permas not being a threat, they tend to have high kills at the end of the match. stealth + lashing can kill many squishies without effort.
Just a side note. When you use Boar Charge, even if it hits, you basically CC yourself. For some reason the dev's thought it was a good idea to make the HR stand stock still for about a second when you use Boar Charge. I stopped using it and switched to Constricting Arrow/Steel Breeze for that very reason.
Also, I'm not saying you didn't kill a 17k GWF on your 10k HR, but if you did it's likely he had no clue what he was doing in PvP, or was wearing straight up PvE gear with a PvE build. A 17k GWF can kill you with one good complete combo. I'm not saying it's impossible to take them down either, just very unlikely. Especially if he has a teammate around.
Also, I'm not saying you didn't kill a 17k GWF on your 10k HR, but if you did it's likely he had no clue what he was doing in PvP, or was wearing straight up PvE gear with a PvE build. A 17k GWF can kill you with one good complete combo. I'm not saying it's impossible to take them down either, just very unlikely. Especially if he has a teammate around.
Probably that. I've actually seen 16k GWFs, who had only 27k HP. Most likely a PvE build or a total newbie.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
But they way they did this. The Q's are going to sky rocket into the abyss.
Lets assume this individual PvP "score" we are going to have takes 2 weeks of solid play to get to a point where your somewhat flatlined..Up and down a fiew points, but you have come to "your" personal best.
Now for sake of argument. We will say top players are going to have a score of 900. Mediocre players will have a score of 600. New/bad players will have a score of 300-400.
Now the new players, and the bad players. Will have instant Q's, I cant see the Q time for them changing much,..if at all. Because the majority of players are new as well as being bad in PvP(thats not an elitist opinion, its just true)\
The mediocre player Q times are going to increase a great deal.
The top players are going to have insanely long Q's, and we will only ever play each other.
Imagine waiting 25 minutes for a Q..to play the same 30 people, over..and over..and over and over again...
The lower tier wont notice this, and the only notice the middle tier of players will see is a slightly longer Q. The top tier of players are going to get nailed into instant boredom once we all reach our score.
I am ALL FOR A Matchmaking system! However......as I've explained above, this is NOT the way to go about it.
What they have done is just killed PvP for veteran and high skilled players.
I foresee a huge withdraw of the playerbase within a month after this release.
This has been talked about before, of exactly why NOT to do this particular rating system. Obviously they didnt listen.
i doubt a penalty is realy a penalty, if someone stays in pvp to not get a penalty and afk`s, because that is what`s going to happen, they`ll still gain points.
hehe, sure it`s less fun to not be able to move to the next match.
but penalties won`t solve the problems.
also , what will happen if someone just logs out and go play on another char.
and will you get penalty if you end up in one of those matches where it shows on enter you will be ported out in 3 sec.
penalty system also may raise the question if 2 accounts are realy allowed.
nothing official about that, but when saying 2 accounts is ok, it gives also the question what use a penalty system will give if someone has several accounts, and even account wide penalties won`t be that usefull.
But they way they did this. The Q's are going to sky rocket into the abyss.
Lets assume this individual PvP "score" we are going to have takes 2 weeks of solid play to get to a point where your somewhat flatlined..Up and down a fiew points, but you have come to "your" personal best.
Now for sake of argument. We will say top players are going to have a score of 900. Mediocre players will have a score of 600. New/bad players will have a score of 300-400.
Now the new players, and the bad players. Will have instant Q's, I cant see the Q time for them changing much,..if at all. Because the majority of players are new as well as being bad in PvP(thats not an elitist opinion, its just true)\
The mediocre player Q times are going to increase a great deal.
The top players are going to have insanely long Q's, and we will only ever play each other.
Imagine waiting 25 minutes for a Q..to play the same 30 people, over..and over..and over and over again...
The lower tier wont notice this, and the only notice the middle tier of players will see is a slightly longer Q. The top tier of players are going to get nailed into instant boredom once we all reach our score.
I am ALL FOR A Matchmaking system! However......as I've explained above, this is NOT the way to go about it.
What they have done is just killed PvP for veteran and high skilled players.
I foresee a huge withdraw of the playerbase within a month after this release.
This has been talked about before, of exactly why NOT to do this particular rating system. Obviously they didnt listen.
Once again cryptic....you are bad @ life....
EsO is right around the corner...
Yes and indeed you must be ranked and will wait more. If you want to not wait - go alone with random PUG. Or start to lose your points.
The main problem with leavers at moment is because ppl like YOU.
The PVP system need matching score but it need and free arena for PVP where ppl can join for premade PVP,for fun and for tests.
I cannot understand you, which one you like more:
1. To wait for pvp players that are good and you will have nice and hard pvp.
2. To wait at capstone like now every time when you other party leave.
3. You want to farm glory with your party because any reason.
If you are common player that just want to enjoy on the game you must choose 1 I think.
if the penalty thing gets real it would be also nice if quests can`t be accepted, because someone could care less about pvp
ports out and just continues questing.
i wouldn`t mind a chat disable also
I am ALL FOR A Matchmaking system! However......as I've explained above, this is NOT the way to go about it.
What they have done is just killed PvP for veteran and high skilled players.
The way I see it, the "veterans" and "skilled players" killed themselves by keep making premades in this environment. Rolling premades in current queue system is simply shooting fish in a barrel.
The individual is also at fault -- no doubt -- since leaving a match is simply out of the question. If one's fragile ego couldn't afford the beating, then one shouldn't have queued in the first place. Like it or not when you become a part of the team, you're committed, and to so easily leave is simply and unquestionably "irresponsible" -- no amount of sweet-talkin' excuse is going to change that fact.
However, with the imbalance in terms of skill and gear so great, people have come to accept leaving and cap-trading as natural. The "skilled" and "veterans" didn't help ONE BIT in trying to rememdy the situation, and instead, just come out like a band of sharks set loose in a tank full of goldfish. They just made things worse and worse, and worse, until the point people will simply raise the middle finger and leave, to boycott matches against premade teams.
If the "skilled" and "veteran" don't like having to wait longer queues, then they have a very simple choice to queue individually and throw themselves into the ultimate fairness of random party making, into a situation where they cannot control so easily.
Otherwise, if they must always be a part of a premade to have all of the baby-sitter support to function in PvP to keep high scores and egos, then it is only fitting that they wait out until they meet a band of people exactly at their level -- which, mind you, is not punishment, but being only fair.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
if the penalty thing gets real it would be also nice if quests can`t be accepted, because someone could care less about pvp
ports out and just continues questing.
i wouldn`t mind a chat disable also
I like your post, to which I would like to add 1 proposal and 1 question.
The question is:
Is that not a bit harsh?
The proposal is:
... and on a second offense I recommend to disable their account for t(last offense commited)^2
after 60 offenses their country is going to be nuked. And all countries that ever had dealing with the offenders place of residence are aslo going to be nuked. AND their pleant. That will teach them to leave a PvP game!
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
if they re gonna give penalties it must be done right ;p
not disable a small part of the game.
so they still can enjoy the rest, so basicly not having a penalty.
second part is weird of your post ;p i don`t say it to teach them a lesson or be mad.
i don`t care much about penalties because it won`t help the players.
queues might get longer if people have to sit out preventing penalties afk in a match, which before is and was easier to fill a next match if it continues.
there`s some difficulties with the rewarding system and the way the field is build and some more stuf, but i think a redesign would help more ;p
no one wants to play for a guaranteed 50% reward while giving the enemy 100% each second they keep play a losing match.
most of the time it`s obvious ofcourse, with matchmaking maybe a little less obvious, but i`m not sure how that`s going to work out while leveling.
guess we`ll have to wait and see.
but penalty should be a penalty and not a half penalty.
think a 4 player votekick and replacements of empty spots would do more good.
along with reward adjustment for the new player.
shouldn`t be too hard to adjust since it`s timebased anyway.
just add a minustimealreadypassed at the end.
although it won`t be funny to end up in matches which are already losing.
i don`t know, hard to fill up that satisfaction for players in those cases.
don`t know how, because kills or anything doesn`t matter, only time.
maybe a little bonus if you end up in 3 losing matches in a row hehe.
Comments
Nothing wrong with wanting a fair fight in PvP. To not end up constantly facing players who's gear effectively makes them several levels beyond your own. We aren't talking skill, just gear. When you effectively have no chance to win, what's the point? It becomes a meaningless/pointless exercise in futility. That's not well designed PvP, and it should be boring for both sides unless someone is seeking a childish ego boost by beating up on others that have to chance to stand against them.
Yes... believe it or not i actually have a preference on what i find fun and what isnt, holy **** that's so new! How is fighting something i cant ever see, let alone tw of them, time and time again fun? If i dont find it fun, why should i ahve to stick around especially if my friends with me dont want to either? Oh wait, i should sit and stay so you can get a bunch of free easy kills, have fun "pwing nubz" with your "skilled" ways, and farm us for free glory. Same as why i dont feel like staying in a game vs 18k+ GS when some of my allies arnt even 9k, seriously why? So ya, lets just have them camp our spawn, not letting us do anything and lets try to "play" that unplayable game for a good 10 minutes until i can finally "leave" without being a "loser".
As for winning, i really, really do not give a flying monkeys *** if i win or lose, if you never lose you never learn anything. The point of a game also isnt to make the player want to pull his/her hair out, if you're not having fun, especially if your whole team isnt, why should we be penalized for leaving?
God forbid i can play a PvP game without having to be stun/prone spammed or having 2 perma rouges just walk around killing whatever they feel like as they run away to hide. But hey, what do i know.
Ok, here's how PW should make fair fights. Take away everyone's gear and allow only 2 powers to be used. The same powers for everyone. And make it all 1 class with the same HP.
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Either GS, skill, luck, teamwork or a combination of those is going to win. You are asking for the impossible. But people that lose when facing a greater force and complain about it and whine until they get everyone else nerfed doesn't help. Sometimes, you just lose to someone that's better at one of the aforementioned qualities.
And Tenacity isn't going to fix it, it may help, but there literally is no fix.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Congrats on finding the Neverwinter equivalent of, 'I'm taking my ball and going home.'
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Instead of quitting, change your tactics and use powers that achieve those two things.
Sorry, that was thinking outside the box, you're right, quit and then complain on a forum.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Being overwhelmed by a better team is not unfair. Luck tends to sway from side to side, you'll have good and bad luck, it balances itself out. No one's asking for everyone to be nerfed, and your reaction is laughable. What people do want is to go into a match with at least a chance of winning. Sure, you will run into teams that work better together, but guess what... you learn from seeing that, from facing it, in person.
What you don't learn from, what isn't fun, and what people don't want is a fight against overpowered, overgeared and/or broken mechanics that creates a situation where they have absolutely no chance of winning, and, quite honestly, the flip side of that should be true as well. Most people don't find predetermined matches to be enjoyable. It's boring. Stomping another team that struggles to score the minimum points is not fun. It's stupid. So is being stomped and getting no Glory because you didn't score the minimum points.
I've been on both sides of the GS issue and despite what you believe it is no fun for either side. Forcing folks to be fodder and yelling at them to LTP isn't going to make it more fun or keep people playing.
The new system is kind of like 2 people holding someone down while you give them a wedgie.
Tripple post, my my, posting in one too hard for you? Not to mention you're unable to read my post at all, so maybe try again before you write such a shallow responce.
Also you really should learn to read, at no point did i say i was quitting, i said it will drive people away since most people dont actually like to be forced to play a game. If you know you're going to lose in the next 5-6 turns in chess, do you concede
or do you sit there and play wasting both players time since you both know that You have lost?
I really dont get people like you at all, why are you so annoyed about winning/losing then if im not allowed to hate perma rouges?? You're trying to force everyone to play a game even though they KNOW they will probly lose, get ROLFstomped by spams or prones and what not, not to mention people that have 8k+ GS advantage on you.
If im not allowed to complain about perma rouges, or GWF spamming prones, then you are not allowed to force me to sit and play if i wish to concede, you still win i still lose, so what's the big deal to you? Didnt get enough kills? Didnt get to wipe peoples faces into the ground to boost your ego?
Also
1) Good for them, they get to hit me with a power while invisable, whats your point?
2) Right...and how do you plan on damaging an invisable target that can be anywhere?
And as for learning from losing, that only happens if you don't rage quit from losing. Guess how I learned to kill 17k GS GWFs as an 10.9k HR? Trying different tactics. The same goes for defeating multiple perma-stealth rogues. Every class has flaws, exploit them. You can consider this a L2P thread if you want, the fact remains that sticking with your 1 bar of 3 powers and the same dailies and class features that hasn't worked for a given situation in the past is setting you up to repeat that outcome in the future.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
I can already call bull**** on your 17k GS kill for one simple reason. He wasnt any good at ALL if he did not kill you, it is impossible to do so without abusing a glitch.
A GWF has a combo that can KO anyone without you being able to get One single attack in, if they reach you, you are dead.
Not only that, once again you ignored everything i said because you know deep down, you have no good arguement agaist me at all, if you did you would stop deflecting and actually argue against my points.
But hey, spew more lies, i really dont care. You're just trying to show off now.
I wasn't talking to you, child mind, but since you're being rude, I'll respond.
"Tripple post, my my, posting in one too hard for you? Not to mention you're unable to read my post at all, so maybe try again before you write such a shallow responce"
Tripple? Responce? You're command of the language is breathtaking. Shallow- that can't be the word you actually meant to use there. And it's pretty clear that posting in one post would be less difficult than three.
"If you know you're going to lose in the next 5-6 turns in chess, do you concede..." You don't play chess. This is a common argument tactic to get people to think you're smarter than you are by pretending you play a game known to be played by smart people. You're passionately whining about an MMO, society wrote you off years ago.
Also
1) if you damage the rogue, they can't perma-stealth which they need to do in order to hit you in order to perms-stealth, etc. (see below)
2) AOE and reflect damage are fairly easy, brainless ways to do damage to things you can't see.
Invisible, for the record.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Impatience is a ugly trait, as is calling someone a liar, regardless of how angry you sound when doing it.
As for the GWF takedown, it's a fairly simple but drawn out process. If you do at-will damage to him when he's not unstoppable, you're an idiot because you are just charging his meter for him. Stay away when he does rage, as an HR that's fairly simple with all the shifts you have. Knock prone and dps with some DoT (tene, PF) and whittle away. If you think about it, you are in charge of his meters. DoT neutralizes his regen.
I guess you do need to learn to play.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
aoe damage would work if u knew where he was but invisible kinda counters that. i even tried path of blades as suggested on these forums and found out that it was a waste. all they literally have to do is dodge-roll once and they r outside of the radius. also, u don't see damage numbers for when they r hit so there is not much point in using aoes to find them. basically just leaves u with 2 skills and 1 on a long cooldown that merely scratched them at best. also, they have 90% reduction in stealth loss from being hit so it takes more than a few to stop it and we have a skill for a free stealth bar every 12 seconds or less depending on recharge speed.
as for reflect, that requires the briartwine(?) enchant, specific companions, or fey thistle and all of which r build dependent.
also, any perma with a brain will not even stand on a node to tell u their approximate location. the ones that do can be easily dispatched but they also probably have lashing slotted as well if they actually came in close. it takes more than just doing damage, u have to be far more mobile than them to make sure they can't just run back to a pot and come back at full hp or stealth again. as permas r also rogues, do not forget that most, if not all, have our execution daily so they don't even need to fully kill you.
even when u do near-kill them, they either spam artifact + soulforge or run and come back at full hp. and they can easily run and come back without much hassle as they spam stealth. i even saw a perma just throw a single knife at me and i lost 8k damage from the malabog set i guess (he didn't even stay to do more than that).
and everyone should know that permas r right behind gwf's in being overpowered. i am a rogue myself and i know perma is rarely stopped. mostly everyone on the group will have 0 chance of defending a node from one which leaves it to the other rogue or gwf to play with them. rogue vs rogue, it's all about speed in successfully dealing damage and permas have the advantage over non-permas hence the issue. 99% of all rogues are perma for a reason.......
So let's see, you skipped more than 3/4 of what I said, and again only "answered" what you wanted to. Not only that, you didn't actually really answer anything, you just took the most immature root possible and called me a "child". If you want to be mature, learn to accept that people have different opinions and learn to actually state a real argument, until then, don't even bother replying, its a waste of our time.
Also, hint hint, if I've been "written off by society" for playing/discussing an MMO, then so have you.
Calling someone a liar inst an ugly trait, I cant help that not everyone is honest. Not only that, you have Zero idea how i play, at all, or what class i even use. Never said i use at wills, you're again just making up assumptions to make yourself look better. Not only that, but you expect me to believe that somebody is stupid enough to "fight" with you for several minutes while you chip away at their Hp, one on one, and they never ever got close enough to attack you? If his GS was that high he would just ignore you and fight someone else if he was getting nowhere, that's like being proud of shooting a training dummy.
I know how to play very well, doesn't stop me having a preference, knowing when I've lost, knowing what is and isn't fun for me. But hey, go ahead and call me a child, it's not like you can form a real argument against me anyways.
Fyi. Who says the perma rouge is anywhere near you when you AoE? You have Zero idea where they could be, they can run and hide, heal, attack anywhere, cap anything, and you'll never know until its far too late. Invisibility is never balanced, hence why i never like fighting or using it.
This comment is about pre tenacity.
Perma's are just annoying not deadly and not op. They need to use their encounters typically for abilities to stay in stealth with and itc. This makes them harder to kill but guess what they only have their at wills and a daily to kill you now too. Build some defenses into your toon so it's not a glass cannon, and get some regen.
The only rogues that are an actually threat as far as kills go are the ones that build for offense rather than stealth. A p. vorpal lashing blade is deadly, cloud of steel is not.
What perma's excel at is slipping into the back rank to contest home, then move off if they can't take whoever runs back to defend it till the defenders leave again making the enemy team have to constant defend their home point. Next to a gwf they're probably the best at taking the enemies home. This doesn't mean that they're op.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Boar_Charge
Never use it so it wasn't even intentional for one.
For two, if the GWF dodges that, you just handed them your head, so again, how does that even help you.
So you think GWF have dodges?
They can leap for one, or use shift at the right time and "dodge" it by running. Dodge doesn't mean " a dodge skill" it means to actually dodge the attack and not be affected by it.
Any other snide comments?
uhhhh, i'm deflect so i am already tanky and our at-wills are not that weak (in fact, duelist flurry will easily take a chunk off of anyone's hp if they stand still). not all permas slot all 3 of the stealth abilities and those with lashing are not gonna hit low on you unless u are extremely tanky yourself. some may not even have shadow strike, but it may not matter if u can't do enough hits to stop their stealth bar completely because once immunity ends, that bar is near-full anyways.
and i never said they just spammed knives all day and i have no idea how strong the at-wills r for whisperknife. they do come in for spike damage when they have immunity up and then run as soon as it ends.
as for permas not being a threat, they tend to have high kills at the end of the match. stealth + lashing can kill many squishies without effort.
Also, I'm not saying you didn't kill a 17k GWF on your 10k HR, but if you did it's likely he had no clue what he was doing in PvP, or was wearing straight up PvE gear with a PvE build. A 17k GWF can kill you with one good complete combo. I'm not saying it's impossible to take them down either, just very unlikely. Especially if he has a teammate around.
Probably that. I've actually seen 16k GWFs, who had only 27k HP. Most likely a PvE build or a total newbie.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
But they way they did this. The Q's are going to sky rocket into the abyss.
Lets assume this individual PvP "score" we are going to have takes 2 weeks of solid play to get to a point where your somewhat flatlined..Up and down a fiew points, but you have come to "your" personal best.
Now for sake of argument. We will say top players are going to have a score of 900. Mediocre players will have a score of 600. New/bad players will have a score of 300-400.
Now the new players, and the bad players. Will have instant Q's, I cant see the Q time for them changing much,..if at all. Because the majority of players are new as well as being bad in PvP(thats not an elitist opinion, its just true)\
The mediocre player Q times are going to increase a great deal.
The top players are going to have insanely long Q's, and we will only ever play each other.
Imagine waiting 25 minutes for a Q..to play the same 30 people, over..and over..and over and over again...
The lower tier wont notice this, and the only notice the middle tier of players will see is a slightly longer Q. The top tier of players are going to get nailed into instant boredom once we all reach our score.
I am ALL FOR A Matchmaking system! However......as I've explained above, this is NOT the way to go about it.
What they have done is just killed PvP for veteran and high skilled players.
I foresee a huge withdraw of the playerbase within a month after this release.
This has been talked about before, of exactly why NOT to do this particular rating system. Obviously they didnt listen.
Once again cryptic....you are bad @ life....
EsO is right around the corner...
hehe, sure it`s less fun to not be able to move to the next match.
but penalties won`t solve the problems.
also , what will happen if someone just logs out and go play on another char.
and will you get penalty if you end up in one of those matches where it shows on enter you will be ported out in 3 sec.
penalty system also may raise the question if 2 accounts are realy allowed.
nothing official about that, but when saying 2 accounts is ok, it gives also the question what use a penalty system will give if someone has several accounts, and even account wide penalties won`t be that usefull.
Yes and indeed you must be ranked and will wait more. If you want to not wait - go alone with random PUG. Or start to lose your points.
The main problem with leavers at moment is because ppl like YOU.
The PVP system need matching score but it need and free arena for PVP where ppl can join for premade PVP,for fun and for tests.
I cannot understand you, which one you like more:
1. To wait for pvp players that are good and you will have nice and hard pvp.
2. To wait at capstone like now every time when you other party leave.
3. You want to farm glory with your party because any reason.
If you are common player that just want to enjoy on the game you must choose 1 I think.
ports out and just continues questing.
i wouldn`t mind a chat disable also
The way I see it, the "veterans" and "skilled players" killed themselves by keep making premades in this environment. Rolling premades in current queue system is simply shooting fish in a barrel.
The individual is also at fault -- no doubt -- since leaving a match is simply out of the question. If one's fragile ego couldn't afford the beating, then one shouldn't have queued in the first place. Like it or not when you become a part of the team, you're committed, and to so easily leave is simply and unquestionably "irresponsible" -- no amount of sweet-talkin' excuse is going to change that fact.
However, with the imbalance in terms of skill and gear so great, people have come to accept leaving and cap-trading as natural. The "skilled" and "veterans" didn't help ONE BIT in trying to rememdy the situation, and instead, just come out like a band of sharks set loose in a tank full of goldfish. They just made things worse and worse, and worse, until the point people will simply raise the middle finger and leave, to boycott matches against premade teams.
If the "skilled" and "veteran" don't like having to wait longer queues, then they have a very simple choice to queue individually and throw themselves into the ultimate fairness of random party making, into a situation where they cannot control so easily.
Otherwise, if they must always be a part of a premade to have all of the baby-sitter support to function in PvP to keep high scores and egos, then it is only fitting that they wait out until they meet a band of people exactly at their level -- which, mind you, is not punishment, but being only fair.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I like your post, to which I would like to add 1 proposal and 1 question.
The question is:
Is that not a bit harsh?
The proposal is:
... and on a second offense I recommend to disable their account for t(last offense commited)^2
after 60 offenses their country is going to be nuked. And all countries that ever had dealing with the offenders place of residence are aslo going to be nuked. AND their pleant. That will teach them to leave a PvP game!
not disable a small part of the game.
so they still can enjoy the rest, so basicly not having a penalty.
second part is weird of your post ;p i don`t say it to teach them a lesson or be mad.
i don`t care much about penalties because it won`t help the players.
queues might get longer if people have to sit out preventing penalties afk in a match, which before is and was easier to fill a next match if it continues.
there`s some difficulties with the rewarding system and the way the field is build and some more stuf, but i think a redesign would help more ;p
no one wants to play for a guaranteed 50% reward while giving the enemy 100% each second they keep play a losing match.
most of the time it`s obvious ofcourse, with matchmaking maybe a little less obvious, but i`m not sure how that`s going to work out while leveling.
guess we`ll have to wait and see.
but penalty should be a penalty and not a half penalty.
think a 4 player votekick and replacements of empty spots would do more good.
along with reward adjustment for the new player.
shouldn`t be too hard to adjust since it`s timebased anyway.
just add a minustimealreadypassed at the end.
although it won`t be funny to end up in matches which are already losing.
i don`t know, hard to fill up that satisfaction for players in those cases.
don`t know how, because kills or anything doesn`t matter, only time.
maybe a little bonus if you end up in 3 losing matches in a row hehe.