I am 100% against the leaver penalty. Not because I want to be a quitter, but as a game carrots should be used well before the stick. I don't quit often but when I do it's for 3 reasons.
1. Real life takes me away. Not often but when this happens I'll probably be gone for more than 30min anyway. No fear of leaver penalty.
2. Getting stomped. Matchmaking should help here so hopefully no need to leave. Again, leaver penalty won't change this.
3. Bad winners. Maybe someone on my team was disconnected or maybe my team just sucks. But when the other team won't even let you take 2 steps off the spawn point, why stay? I don't join to spawn camp. Here the leaver penalty isn't fair to anyone because it forces me to spawn camp.
Change the maps so the spawn points have multiple exits / random locations / teleport / make you invulnerable for 10 secons or something. Do this and I won't likely ever want to leave.
Nixon the TR
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
a lot of the speculation in this thread about penalties are not taking into account how matchmaking is going to affect pvp matches. people leaving matches is only a symptom to a bigger problem of not providing an adequate matchmaking system. add a matchmaking system and then add a penalty for leaving matches and i'd bet that you won't have as many people leaving matches.
but as i've said before, i expect leaver penalties to be fine tuned and changed later down the line.
Which, again, begs the question, why bother putting it into place at this point at all? Just push the matchmaking system into place and see what happens.
Here is the root of my issue:
If you roll out both together, you don't know exactly how effective your matchmaking changes are, or if there are other issues that drive people to quit a match, because you've slapped a bandaid over something that should be used as an indicator of the overall health of the PvP experience.
Leave the penalty for leaving out of the next update, and watch the community, watch to see how the new changes impact the number of people that quit. If it is greatly reduced, minimal numbers leaving, you've pushed in a successful change. If you still have people quitting PvP matches in droves, figure out why that is, and see if there's another change to be made to positively impact PvP instead of using a threat/negative reinforcement to cover up the blemishes.
Tenacity won't change as much as they make it sound. We all will have some and the top players will have more. Big deal. It's the ELO and -hopefully working- matchmaking I'm looking forward to.
Have you actually been on the test shard and tried out pvp with tenacity? I'm guessing by your name that you are a CW , if so it changes a lot , control skills now have basically no effect whatsoever on players that you use them on making CW's quite pointless also tenacity kills clerics whole point of being in pvp since healing is nerfed almost into nonexistence .
PVP Tenacity
There have been many posts on this and it makes me sad that the players voice doesnt seem to be heard...
1) Healing Depression is FAR too much, I think this number was arrived at due to the initial armor pen resistance, since that has been removed (kudos to DEVs here) healing depression needs to be brought back to about 30% instead of 50%.
- This single issue makes DCs unviable and almost worthless in PVP.
2) Tenacity as a good idea gone wrong with CC resist. Control Wizards are also literally worthless in PVP. I agree the control resist on other abilities like prones is good, but Control Wizards are so squishy (even with tenacity) they need controls to stay alive, they also (by nature) are a CONTROL wizard, so whats a control wizard with no controls? Just a wizard and unfortunately their class wasnt mean to LEET DEEPS players in pvp (especially with added DR on tenacity) so the class is just dead.
- This can easily be solved by a new "anti-cc resist" just like ARP reduces DR. This could be available on artifacts as well as the PVP gear. Heck even as a set bonus... Either that or some type of control bonus for longer durations, however when running so much control resist... Id say the bigger issue is with the resists than anything else.
ELO rating system
This is AWESOME! However part of what attracts people to a rank system is the ability to see rank. Without it, it may create more fair "matchups" but no incentive to PVP. With visible rating, it not only creates matchups but also incentive. I would strongly recommend this...
Leaver Penalty
This update did not tell us the time duration of the penalty. Last I heard was 30 minutes which seems WAY too harsh. This (while there for a good reason) will give people second thoughts about even que-ing for pvp in the first place. This makes me nervous because now the people who did PVP, will have to think twice about the que.
the MUCH bigger issue with Leaver Penalty is this:
Premades have NO way to que against other premades now. THIS is what drives the pvp community, if you kill this, you will kill PVP.
- You NEED to give premades an easy way to que against eachother, or this entire system will not work.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
Premades have NO way to que against other premades now. THIS is what drives the pvp community, if you kill this, you will kill PVP.
- You NEED to give premades an easy way to que against eachother, or this entire system will not work.
I've pointed this out in a few places now, and it could be easily fixed by giving us the ability to challenge one another in PvP. You can even remove a challenge match from the ELO ranking, just let us pick an opponent to queue against if both people/parties agree.
We have a weekly Guild pvp night where we pick teams within the guild and face off, and I'm worried that this new ranking system could end such a practice.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Premades have NO way to que against other premades now. THIS is what drives the pvp community, if you kill this, you will kill PVP.
- You NEED to give premades an easy way to que against eachother, or this entire system will not work.
I understand your point, but in that case there must also be a way to prevent wintrading.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Premades have NO way to que against other premades now. THIS is what drives the pvp community, if you kill this, you will kill PVP.
- You NEED to give premades an easy way to que against eachother, or this entire system will not work.
People have been pushing for a separate queue for premades and pugs which would solve this and many other problems. I think matchmaking alone also doesn't justify a leaver penalty, separate queues would.
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syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
So let me see if I understand this "leaver" penalty.
I leave a match (I rarely PvP but when I do I stick it out anyway, because that's what I signed up to do).
That means I can't go into a dungeon the likes of Idris, Malabog, etc for 30 minutes?
This assumption based on
PvP Leaver Penalty effects:
You will not be able to queue for any queueable content. This includes other Domination matches, Gauntlgrym, skirmishes and dungeons.
Now, I can completely understand keeping someone from being able to run another PvP match. But is it just a programming issue or is it intentional that the quitter would get cut off from ALL queable content? Because THAT is hella heavy handed blow, which I can see would be a strong deterrent, assuredly. It just seems waaaaaaaaaay harsh.
contents to be decided
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syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
What penalty would you consider fair for a player who willingly and knowingly griefs his team again and again till he gets what he wants? To me, a day's ban wouldn't be good enough for people like that.
To be cut off from basically all endgame content for 30 minutes is quite an extreme punishment. From my understanding it's a flat 30 minute penalty even for "first time" offenses. To answer your question, having people cut off from Queueing for PvP for 30 minutes makes sense. That's what they're (possibly) griefing, that's what they should get removed from. An eventual day's ban I could see coming into effect if, by chance,t here was a ladder system of scaling punishments involved, but as my perspective is currently the "1-size-fits-all" model, I think that the current implementation is just too extreme.
my opinions on leaver penalties have evolved over time. initially, i didn't like them at all. it seemed unreasonable or that there was really no way that they could reasonably enforce a penalty and that it was quite unfair to force someone to keep getting facesmashed by a much better geared/skilled character or a premade for that matter. i then changed it to a leaver penalty would be feasible after a good matchmaking system was implemented. and today, i feel that as long as matchmaking works the way it should, i don't mind the leaver penalty as much.
in theory, matchmaking along with tenacity will provide level matches for everybody that wants to pvp. we still have not yet been able to test matchmaking with tenacity on the preview shard yet. and what other balance fixes they intend to roll out with the upcoming pvp changes, some have been posted but i don't know that everything has been announced or put up for testing yet. and no dates have been provided as to when they're looking to roll this stuff out. all we got is conjecture at the moment. but i think they'll work it out. pvp in its current state has endured through open beta to now and the pvp queue still pops frequently. i have faith!
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited February 2014
So, now you can't leave without a penalty, because we'd rather be jerks and enforce correct behavior with a stick instead of a carrot, only, that stick isn't really big enough, so now you have people sitting at camp instead.
Great, let's just penalize you for that too!
Awesome, we're great at fixing things!
Now those people go stand in a corner instead, paying only enough attention to make sure and run out of camp when they die.
Now what do we do? Nothing. Working as intended. You still effectively fight short handed. Winning teams will still push you back to the spawn point, only now, you are FORCED to feed them and pump up their ego score bu continuing to jump down off camp to your immediate death for fear of penalty.
Well thought out "fix".
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
So I decided to offer my feedback based on some random pug matches. They are fairly representative for solo queueing:
- first match, all went to home, all on slow horses, no wep/armor enchants, left
- 2nd "match", bugged, got kicked out of 5 consecutive matches
- 2nd real match, started good, teams quite balanced, we made a push to their point after some hard fighting, 2 of enemies left, rest wanted to trade caps, remained to end
- 3rd match, ended up against full PM, kited for like 10 mins 2 GFs, then a CW and a DC, all this time without any support even as I went to my team. As I was finally about to die I looked at party and there were only 3 of us left. No wonder I had 0 support. I left before dying, I'm not gonna be the kind of idiot to fight 1 vs 3-5 people intent on farming kills on me.
- 4th match, all went at homebase, all on slow mounts but one, I left
- 5th match, ended up against some friends casual PM, they kinda owned me, jumped on my body a bit, when I respawned I noticed I was the only one left, did 1 vs 1 to the end of the match, remained to the end
So what can I say. As things are now, leaving is part of the game. I personally don't feel like being a doormat to be stepped on, either by the enemy, either by my own team that goes for homebase leaving us with 2 red points and a certain loss. I am not very fond of cap trading either, and I never stood in spawn.
One can pretty much avoid these situations by queueing with friends or guild. However, then you create another set of issues. Suddenly you're the bad guy that farms kills on poor ungeared guys or PvE players. I'm not fond of that either, except when they trashtalk me and try to ninja-kill me after nobody fights anymore etc.
My suggestion:
- ladders&rankings (ranking already coming)
- participation in ladders by registering a team
- random queue without any rewards or ranking impact whatsoever, basically only people that want to see what PvP is like would use this
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masterortechMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 3
PVP Tenacity
There have been many posts on this and it makes me sad that the players voice doesnt seem to be heard...
1) Healing Depression is FAR too much, I think this number was arrived at due to the initial armor pen resistance, since that has been removed (kudos to DEVs here) healing depression needs to be brought back to about 30% instead of 50%.
- This single issue makes DCs unviable and almost worthless in PVP.
2) Tenacity as a good idea gone wrong with CC resist. Control Wizards are also literally worthless in PVP. I agree the control resist on other abilities like prones is good, but Control Wizards are so squishy (even with tenacity) they need controls to stay alive, they also (by nature) are a CONTROL wizard, so whats a control wizard with no controls? Just a wizard and unfortunately their class wasnt mean to LEET DEEPS players in pvp (especially with added DR on tenacity) so the class is just dead.
- This can easily be solved by a new "anti-cc resist" just like ARP reduces DR. This could be available on artifacts as well as the PVP gear. Heck even as a set bonus... Either that or some type of control bonus for longer durations, however when running so much control resist... Id say the bigger issue is with the resists than anything else.
ELO rating system
This is AWESOME! However part of what attracts people to a rank system is the ability to see rank. Without it, it may create more fair "matchups" but no incentive to PVP. With visible rating, it not only creates matchups but also incentive. I would strongly recommend this...
Leaver Penalty
This update did not tell us the time duration of the penalty. Last I heard was 30 minutes which seems WAY too harsh. This (while there for a good reason) will give people second thoughts about even que-ing for pvp in the first place. This makes me nervous because now the people who did PVP, will have to think twice about the que.
the MUCH bigger issue with Leaver Penalty is this:
Premades have NO way to que against other premades now. THIS is what drives the pvp community, if you kill this, you will kill PVP.
- You NEED to give premades an easy way to que against eachother, or this entire system will not work.
I totally agree with the Tenacity stat comments. if you are ANY class but one of the 2 fighters (GWF or GF) you are HOZED. TR,CW,HR or DC ALL rely on controls to survive against the fighters that can absorb damage WAY more than any other class. This is the MAIN reason, among a host of others, I left WOW. if you weren't a fighter or rogue you were getting HOZED. That and too many secondary stats. I see the secondary stats becoming too many and hard to manage fast with this game now also PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS. DO NOT ADD THIS STAT find a better way to "balance" things out in PVP. Lower some secondary stat effects in PVP or up some existing defenses in PVP ANYTHING but what is being offered by adding another secondary.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Can I ask why you left? I don't see any valid reason.
-All went for home?
Lastly, I would like to point out that while losing can feel like a waste of time, it's only a game. You're not making a living with it. Relax. Better luck next time.
I don't mind losing, it happens. I don't even mind low end gear - when it's just that. However, when low end gear (this includes slow mount in PvP - I almost didn't touch PvP at all until I had my T2 set, epic gear, rank5s, mount) is coupled with:
- stupidity
- selfishness
Then I feel the team I'm in doesn't deserve a win, and doesn't deserve me to try and carry (which is nigh impossible on CW, but can happen with very bad opponents). If they go all at home, they deserve to fight 4 vs 5.
One thing. I always say why I leave in these cases, i.e., "You all went at home? Worst strat ever, bye bye".
Another thing. I didn't know to go mid when I started playing. Sometimes I went mid if I saw others going mid, and sometimes I went to cap home when all the other guys went mid. I was pretty much lost and just didn't know what to do. What I usually do when I feel lost, is go and look for information, and start reading. There used to be a topic here created by Alysin Chains, which was extremely helpful for new people, but... it is gone.
So now there's no concentrated resource to help newbies.
just because the devs haven't confirmed or denied any change suggestions that you or anyone else in the forums have made does not mean that they are not taking the feedback with stride. as a matter of fact, in the most recent announcement about the changes, PWE staff says:
We've detailed upcoming changes to PvP Domination based on the incredible feedback and suggestions we've received. To learn more, please click here.
What do you think about the upcoming changes? Let us know with a comment below!
Cheers,
Pin
you have to remember that this is a game that begins with the devs who have stated they are big d&d fans. game development is as much of a creative outlet as film making except with gaming, at least with free expansions and constant updates and changes, they are more than willing to listen to constructive feedback. but i'm telling you, this process starts from all of the feedback given from everyone about their disappointment with something in-game and they look at how they can change it and make it better. it doesn't matter that no one asked for tenacity specifically or the combination of tenacity/matchmaking and penalties. as a company, they have to try to determine what is going to be the best solution for everyone that wants to play pvp, but can't because of this, that or the other. they have access to metrics and feedback that we don't here on the forums. go watch the last twitch stream where gentlemancrush is discussing the pvp changes and how passionate he is about what he is doing. it's pretty evident to me. ultimately, decisions are finalized based on many facets that you and i aren't privy to.
and ultimately, that doesn't mean that the devs aren't listening or haven't read every single thing that has been posted on the forums. they have access to all of it.
I don't mind losing, it happens. I don't even mind low end gear - when it's just that. However, when low end gear (this includes slow mount in PvP - I almost didn't touch PvP at all until I had my T2 set, epic gear, rank5s, mount) is coupled with:
- stupidity
- selfishness
Then I feel the team I'm in doesn't deserve a win, and doesn't deserve me to try and carry (which is nigh impossible on CW, but can happen with very bad opponents). If they go all at home, they deserve to fight 4 vs 5.
One thing. I always say why I leave in these cases, i.e., "You all went at home? Worst strat ever, bye bye".
That's a lot of words for; "I only play games I win"
Everyone says they don't mind losing, but everyone knows its a lie.
Another thing. I didn't know to go mid when I started playing. Sometimes I went mid if I saw others going mid, and sometimes I went to cap home when all the other guys went mid. I was pretty much lost and just didn't know what to do. What I usually do when I feel lost, is go and look for information, and start reading. There used to be a topic here created by Alysin Chains, which was extremely helpful for new people, but... it is gone.
So now there's no concentrated resource to help newbies.
And when a clueless newbie queues in a game with you, the first thing he will see is someone saying;
"You all went at home? Worst strat ever, bye bye"
...and then just quit right at the start of the game.
"Help newbies"? Cool story, bro. Who you gonna help with that attitude?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
"the fighters that can absorb damage WAY more than any other class".... The average GF are about 45$ DR .Average GWF DR 35%.DC 35% i think.Even TR have 22-25% with leather armor!!! yet the GF they have no spells ,no immunity as other classes have.Also dealing a lot less damage.
CW and rogues are squishy?The right thing to do!! Last time i checked metal plater armor is stronger than leather or cloth armor in V for Vendetta style..
Anyway the problem in pvp are neither the cw nor the dc.The problem is the ridicously overpoweed GWFs.Untill they nerfed pvp is broken.
I played both PVP hours today.In many cases my team was simply a better team.I could see that with the timed dailies and enc.
The opposite team had many times 2 gwf.I am a GF.The only chance to put them down was a GF and a TR /CW vs 1.Nerf them!!!
Most of them are not good gamers anyway.Button mashing.They all runing around in berserk mode.No tactics nothing.I was running around them in circles try to refil the bull charge ,the TR disorienting him while the gwf was only presing some buttons.Great gameplay.
As concerning the penalty.I am 100% for it.Today in the 6-8 matches i played ,half of them ended a travesty with 3vs 5.Or 2vs 5.
And one more thing.people leave really early.They screw all the game.They are coming to pvp for pvp yet when they see that we lose slightly by a team they running around.
And most of them have legendary/epic mounts .Today i did not see a SIMPLE HORSE PLAYER quitting.They all STAYED and FIGHTED untill the end.But the "hardcore" ,"experienced" "true" "VETS" players ARE the first to run around like chickens,QUITTING.Sad reality. "i don't want to lose ,my teammates are bad"."No no this is a **** tactic" "You don't know what are yu doing.I am out". Pretty lame.A match is about 6-8 minutes.Most people leave at 1-2 min.I thinik it is not so tragic to wait 4 minutes.After all you did not work you play a game in your chair.
Main problem of pvp is GWF.Its OP ,is out of hand.It ended up a game breaking mechanic.Today i was entagled by rangers ,backstabbed by TR,controlled by CW.I have no problem.That is their gameplay.Especialy HR i do not find anything wrong with them.It seems the ones complaining are the GWFs.
Which are really unstoppable.All classes have prons and cons.GWF do not have cons.Simple as that.They are fast they have defense they have dps.In neverwinter MMO GWFs are gods.Nerf them or improve the attack animation of the GF so that a GF could at least stall the GWF.Do something.
Separate queues would be a nice bonus, agreed. But consider: With an ELO ladder in place, what are the odds of a high ranking premade running into a low ranked pug when another premade of equal rank is also available? The odds are higher you run into a premade the higher ranking you get. So in theory it should be easier for premade vs premade once the teams have worked their way up the ladder. The only "challenge" will be getting up that ladder. Let's see how this works out before we set a dozen devs working on a complete new system.
The issue is not that teams of different ELOs will meet but a premade and a pug with the same ELO can meet. A premade will always have a distinct advantage over a pug even with the same rating and the system doesn't adjust to that (neither within the rating, nor in the glory rewards, which are stagnant). A single player rating in a team environment is flawed by design, the player with the highest rating doesn't have to be the best player.
But the "hardcore" ,"experienced" "true" "VETS" players ARE the first to run around like chickens,QUITTING.Sad reality. "i don't want to lose ,my teammates are bad"."No no this is a **** tactic" "You don't know what are yu doing.I am out". Pretty lame.
This is due to epic teammates that dunno how to win and how to play, imagining when u 1v3 backcapping and your rest 4 teammates chasing a red hp GWF for kills and the other 2 nodes are red, will u quit? Second case, even you are BIS and overgeared, you go mid and other 4 go base, how u feel? The other team sent 5 to mid and you have a hard time defending mid. Well you managed to do this for 3 minutes because you are overgeared but the moment u see your 4 epic teammates go to enemy base after capping base, ignoring you and let u solo tank those 4 or 5 again, will u quit? Stop asking why elites quit, ask yourself whether you will stay or not. AND RMB!! Most of us aren't overgeared, we are at 12k-15k gs, not those legendary/perfect/r10 guys.
This is due to epic teammates that dunno how to win and how to play, imagining when u 1v3 backcapping and your rest 4 teammates chasing a red hp GWF for kills and the other 2 nodes are red, will u quit? Second case, even you are BIS and overgeared, you go mid and other 4 go base, how u feel? The other team sent 5 to mid and you have a hard time defending mid. Well you managed to do this for 3 minutes because you are overgeared but the moment u see your 4 epic teammates go to enemy base after capping base, ignoring you and let u solo tank those 4 or 5 again, will u quit? Stop asking why elites quit, ask yourself whether you will stay or not. AND RMB!! Most of us aren't overgeared, we are at 12k-15k gs, not those legendary/perfect/r10 guys.
All I can say is ^life of a DC
You forgot to add we can't even kill any of them... at least a tr or gwf kiting that many people could kill someone... we just die... albeit slowly, but still it's sad
my opinions on leaver penalties have evolved over time. initially, i didn't like them at all. it seemed unreasonable or that there was really no way that they could reasonably enforce a penalty and that it was quite unfair to force someone to keep getting facesmashed by a much better geared/skilled character or a premade for that matter. i then changed it to a leaver penalty would be feasible after a good matchmaking system was implemented. and today, i feel that as long as matchmaking works the way it should, i don't mind the leaver penalty as much.
in theory, matchmaking along with tenacity will provide level matches for everybody that wants to pvp. we still have not yet been able to test matchmaking with tenacity on the preview shard yet. and what other balance fixes they intend to roll out with the upcoming pvp changes, some have been posted but i don't know that everything has been announced or put up for testing yet. and no dates have been provided as to when they're looking to roll this stuff out. all we got is conjecture at the moment. but i think they'll work it out. pvp in its current state has endured through open beta to now and the pvp queue still pops frequently. i have faith!
In my opinion all this is doing is making it more so that a person who is geared will only do premades. At least im sure that's how it will be for myself. Reason being is your new elo system. That system is great. However I think there was a bit of an over sight. Chess is a 1v1 game. PvP is 5v5. Meaning that the same problem exist. You could have one geared person and 4 people that are wearing green gear. The geared person gets 28 kills 0 deaths. Everyone else has 0 kills and 30 deaths. Needless to say the match is lost. So the good person takes a loss, gets less ranking, and is doomed to be stuck in that situation useless he gets good pugs or does premades. How is this sensable? Had it been based off of individual proformace than perhaps I would be inclined to believe this to be a good system. But its not. To me you would have done far better just implementing a gs based queing system. All i see is you all dancing around the fact of whats to happen any way. Class balancing. All the time spent to develop a new system sounds great. However the same problems are still there. As you all know (not saying you specifically but some of your team members). I'm not sure how you all came to this conclusion. After some of the "testers" were ran out of PvP. You know whats not balanced. (ironically you all put in a leaving pen. even though they left while "testing" ....). With that being said I personally don't believe that you all are listening to the community. The proof in my statement is that people have not complained about not living long enough but the fact that some classes are not killable. What did you all do? Ensure that nearly unkillable would live longer..... I'm not one to rain down golden sunshine on people's parade but this one cannot be helped because its only the truth.
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tyrusaranMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited February 2014
1-tenacity stat will make pvp pop go down 2- leaver penalty affecting pve will make pvp pop go down 3-whole idea is not thought out well at all.
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
TY devs for the upcoming pvp patch. I can not wait to pvp with the new system. Disregard the qq'ing by everyone about the upcoming changes, they are simply fantastic!!! Most comments are a knee-jerk reaction to something they do not fully understand. This once again gives pvp'ers something to farm and use all their glory for, segregates the good players from the bad and will over time curb the leaving problem by either camping the fire, or simply giving up on pvp all together.
It is a giant leap forward to finally making pvp in Neverwinter something we will all enjoy and eagerly log on to play. But fear not puggies, I do plan on keeping my ello score as low as possible so I can queue with you all on solo adventures, helping teach you the fundamentals of pvp'ing, while still having epic premade battles.
I and many others can not wait for this patch. It can not come too soon.
I am so glad this pvp update is coming, i am a solo pvp player, i just run around on my own and kill everyone. Now enemies will not quit when i cut them up like taco wrap sandwiches.
TY devs for the upcoming pvp patch. I can not wait to pvp with the new system. Disregard the qq'ing by everyone about the upcoming changes, they are simply fantastic!!! Most comments are a knee-jerk reaction to something they do not fully understand. This once again gives pvp'ers something to farm and use all their glory for, segregates the good players from the bad and will over time curb the leaving problem by either camping the fire, or simply giving up on pvp all together.
It is a giant leap forward to finally making pvp in Neverwinter something we will all enjoy and eagerly log on to play. But fear not puggies, I do plan on keeping my ello score as low as possible so I can queue with you all on solo adventures, helping teach you the fundamentals of pvp'ing, while still having epic premade battles.
I and many others can not wait for this patch. It can not come too soon.
It dont. because the good and bad are still rated off what their team does. Guess what that means? If you suck then you not going to get a premade. Trust me as sure as i know mmos. The elite will not loose this battle. You have 1000 points of *** kicking to look foward to unless you want to quit and take the pen. I'm not being a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just being honest. As a 16.3 pvp geared cw im sure as hell not doing it without a premade. Its pointless. So yea i welcome the changes as well. gives me more time to play other games when my friends are not on :-)
Looks like some post got sent to the Trash Can again.
Is the company too low on budget, to select these incompetent player mods?
If you want to start a thread for players to discuss, please get mods who don't delete posts on random.
Thanks.
They do that everytime a thread is not favorable to them. and you know that as well as i do. They wish to keep the dreamers dreaming while the real data from actually "testing" is presented.....come on Archeage :-) I'm just spending time till then :-D
1-tenacity stat will make pvp pop go down 2- leaver penalty affecting pve will make pvp pop go down 3-whole idea is not thought out well at all.
This is an ongoing thing. They dont want to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off the gwf and tr. the gwf just now is getting to be viable and the tr has always been over powered in pvp. They dont want to mess with it and just should come out and say it. but they know they will loose people so they will do something about it before its all said and done. at the end of they day they will have to class balance or people will go else where. just that simple. hate it or love it. its the truth. those are the two classes the entire community have voiced their opinions about. so if they are "listening" then why was there no of it address? thats my question. please follow up developers/cms/whatever. All i see is that you all (as always) have done what you felt like doing. Not listening to the community. Making out of the way changes. (the community has given you several quick fixes). So what do you have to say for yourself? You dont listen. You do as you please. And on top of that you have the gall to expect us to look forward to it.... wow just wow
Comments
1. Real life takes me away. Not often but when this happens I'll probably be gone for more than 30min anyway. No fear of leaver penalty.
2. Getting stomped. Matchmaking should help here so hopefully no need to leave. Again, leaver penalty won't change this.
3. Bad winners. Maybe someone on my team was disconnected or maybe my team just sucks. But when the other team won't even let you take 2 steps off the spawn point, why stay? I don't join to spawn camp. Here the leaver penalty isn't fair to anyone because it forces me to spawn camp.
Change the maps so the spawn points have multiple exits / random locations / teleport / make you invulnerable for 10 secons or something. Do this and I won't likely ever want to leave.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Which, again, begs the question, why bother putting it into place at this point at all? Just push the matchmaking system into place and see what happens.
Here is the root of my issue:
If you roll out both together, you don't know exactly how effective your matchmaking changes are, or if there are other issues that drive people to quit a match, because you've slapped a bandaid over something that should be used as an indicator of the overall health of the PvP experience.
Leave the penalty for leaving out of the next update, and watch the community, watch to see how the new changes impact the number of people that quit. If it is greatly reduced, minimal numbers leaving, you've pushed in a successful change. If you still have people quitting PvP matches in droves, figure out why that is, and see if there's another change to be made to positively impact PvP instead of using a threat/negative reinforcement to cover up the blemishes.
Have you actually been on the test shard and tried out pvp with tenacity? I'm guessing by your name that you are a CW , if so it changes a lot , control skills now have basically no effect whatsoever on players that you use them on making CW's quite pointless also tenacity kills clerics whole point of being in pvp since healing is nerfed almost into nonexistence .
There have been many posts on this and it makes me sad that the players voice doesnt seem to be heard...
1) Healing Depression is FAR too much, I think this number was arrived at due to the initial armor pen resistance, since that has been removed (kudos to DEVs here) healing depression needs to be brought back to about 30% instead of 50%.
- This single issue makes DCs unviable and almost worthless in PVP.
2) Tenacity as a good idea gone wrong with CC resist. Control Wizards are also literally worthless in PVP. I agree the control resist on other abilities like prones is good, but Control Wizards are so squishy (even with tenacity) they need controls to stay alive, they also (by nature) are a CONTROL wizard, so whats a control wizard with no controls? Just a wizard and unfortunately their class wasnt mean to LEET DEEPS players in pvp (especially with added DR on tenacity) so the class is just dead.
- This can easily be solved by a new "anti-cc resist" just like ARP reduces DR. This could be available on artifacts as well as the PVP gear. Heck even as a set bonus... Either that or some type of control bonus for longer durations, however when running so much control resist... Id say the bigger issue is with the resists than anything else.
ELO rating system
This is AWESOME! However part of what attracts people to a rank system is the ability to see rank. Without it, it may create more fair "matchups" but no incentive to PVP. With visible rating, it not only creates matchups but also incentive. I would strongly recommend this...
Leaver Penalty
This update did not tell us the time duration of the penalty. Last I heard was 30 minutes which seems WAY too harsh. This (while there for a good reason) will give people second thoughts about even que-ing for pvp in the first place. This makes me nervous because now the people who did PVP, will have to think twice about the que.
the MUCH bigger issue with Leaver Penalty is this:
Premades have NO way to que against other premades now. THIS is what drives the pvp community, if you kill this, you will kill PVP.
- You NEED to give premades an easy way to que against eachother, or this entire system will not work.
I've pointed this out in a few places now, and it could be easily fixed by giving us the ability to challenge one another in PvP. You can even remove a challenge match from the ELO ranking, just let us pick an opponent to queue against if both people/parties agree.
We have a weekly Guild pvp night where we pick teams within the guild and face off, and I'm worried that this new ranking system could end such a practice.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
People have been pushing for a separate queue for premades and pugs which would solve this and many other problems. I think matchmaking alone also doesn't justify a leaver penalty, separate queues would.
I leave a match (I rarely PvP but when I do I stick it out anyway, because that's what I signed up to do).
That means I can't go into a dungeon the likes of Idris, Malabog, etc for 30 minutes?
This assumption based on
Now, I can completely understand keeping someone from being able to run another PvP match. But is it just a programming issue or is it intentional that the quitter would get cut off from ALL queable content? Because THAT is hella heavy handed blow, which I can see would be a strong deterrent, assuredly. It just seems waaaaaaaaaay harsh.
To be cut off from basically all endgame content for 30 minutes is quite an extreme punishment. From my understanding it's a flat 30 minute penalty even for "first time" offenses. To answer your question, having people cut off from Queueing for PvP for 30 minutes makes sense. That's what they're (possibly) griefing, that's what they should get removed from. An eventual day's ban I could see coming into effect if, by chance,t here was a ladder system of scaling punishments involved, but as my perspective is currently the "1-size-fits-all" model, I think that the current implementation is just too extreme.
in theory, matchmaking along with tenacity will provide level matches for everybody that wants to pvp. we still have not yet been able to test matchmaking with tenacity on the preview shard yet. and what other balance fixes they intend to roll out with the upcoming pvp changes, some have been posted but i don't know that everything has been announced or put up for testing yet. and no dates have been provided as to when they're looking to roll this stuff out. all we got is conjecture at the moment. but i think they'll work it out. pvp in its current state has endured through open beta to now and the pvp queue still pops frequently. i have faith!
Great, let's just penalize you for that too!
Awesome, we're great at fixing things!
Now those people go stand in a corner instead, paying only enough attention to make sure and run out of camp when they die.
Now what do we do? Nothing. Working as intended. You still effectively fight short handed. Winning teams will still push you back to the spawn point, only now, you are FORCED to feed them and pump up their ego score bu continuing to jump down off camp to your immediate death for fear of penalty.
Well thought out "fix".
- first match, all went to home, all on slow horses, no wep/armor enchants, left
- 2nd "match", bugged, got kicked out of 5 consecutive matches
- 2nd real match, started good, teams quite balanced, we made a push to their point after some hard fighting, 2 of enemies left, rest wanted to trade caps, remained to end
- 3rd match, ended up against full PM, kited for like 10 mins 2 GFs, then a CW and a DC, all this time without any support even as I went to my team. As I was finally about to die I looked at party and there were only 3 of us left. No wonder I had 0 support. I left before dying, I'm not gonna be the kind of idiot to fight 1 vs 3-5 people intent on farming kills on me.
- 4th match, all went at homebase, all on slow mounts but one, I left
- 5th match, ended up against some friends casual PM, they kinda owned me, jumped on my body a bit, when I respawned I noticed I was the only one left, did 1 vs 1 to the end of the match, remained to the end
So what can I say. As things are now, leaving is part of the game. I personally don't feel like being a doormat to be stepped on, either by the enemy, either by my own team that goes for homebase leaving us with 2 red points and a certain loss. I am not very fond of cap trading either, and I never stood in spawn.
One can pretty much avoid these situations by queueing with friends or guild. However, then you create another set of issues. Suddenly you're the bad guy that farms kills on poor ungeared guys or PvE players. I'm not fond of that either, except when they trashtalk me and try to ninja-kill me after nobody fights anymore etc.
My suggestion:
- ladders&rankings (ranking already coming)
- participation in ladders by registering a team
- random queue without any rewards or ranking impact whatsoever, basically only people that want to see what PvP is like would use this
I totally agree with the Tenacity stat comments. if you are ANY class but one of the 2 fighters (GWF or GF) you are HOZED. TR,CW,HR or DC ALL rely on controls to survive against the fighters that can absorb damage WAY more than any other class. This is the MAIN reason, among a host of others, I left WOW. if you weren't a fighter or rogue you were getting HOZED. That and too many secondary stats. I see the secondary stats becoming too many and hard to manage fast with this game now also PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS. DO NOT ADD THIS STAT find a better way to "balance" things out in PVP. Lower some secondary stat effects in PVP or up some existing defenses in PVP ANYTHING but what is being offered by adding another secondary.
I don't mind losing, it happens. I don't even mind low end gear - when it's just that. However, when low end gear (this includes slow mount in PvP - I almost didn't touch PvP at all until I had my T2 set, epic gear, rank5s, mount) is coupled with:
- stupidity
- selfishness
Then I feel the team I'm in doesn't deserve a win, and doesn't deserve me to try and carry (which is nigh impossible on CW, but can happen with very bad opponents). If they go all at home, they deserve to fight 4 vs 5.
One thing. I always say why I leave in these cases, i.e., "You all went at home? Worst strat ever, bye bye".
Another thing. I didn't know to go mid when I started playing. Sometimes I went mid if I saw others going mid, and sometimes I went to cap home when all the other guys went mid. I was pretty much lost and just didn't know what to do. What I usually do when I feel lost, is go and look for information, and start reading. There used to be a topic here created by Alysin Chains, which was extremely helpful for new people, but... it is gone.
So now there's no concentrated resource to help newbies.
just because the devs haven't confirmed or denied any change suggestions that you or anyone else in the forums have made does not mean that they are not taking the feedback with stride. as a matter of fact, in the most recent announcement about the changes, PWE staff says:
you have to remember that this is a game that begins with the devs who have stated they are big d&d fans. game development is as much of a creative outlet as film making except with gaming, at least with free expansions and constant updates and changes, they are more than willing to listen to constructive feedback. but i'm telling you, this process starts from all of the feedback given from everyone about their disappointment with something in-game and they look at how they can change it and make it better. it doesn't matter that no one asked for tenacity specifically or the combination of tenacity/matchmaking and penalties. as a company, they have to try to determine what is going to be the best solution for everyone that wants to play pvp, but can't because of this, that or the other. they have access to metrics and feedback that we don't here on the forums. go watch the last twitch stream where gentlemancrush is discussing the pvp changes and how passionate he is about what he is doing. it's pretty evident to me. ultimately, decisions are finalized based on many facets that you and i aren't privy to.
and ultimately, that doesn't mean that the devs aren't listening or haven't read every single thing that has been posted on the forums. they have access to all of it.
nothing has been announced about a free respec, however in the past they have been issued for major class balance changes.
That's a lot of words for; "I only play games I win"
Everyone says they don't mind losing, but everyone knows its a lie.
And when a clueless newbie queues in a game with you, the first thing he will see is someone saying;
"You all went at home? Worst strat ever, bye bye"
...and then just quit right at the start of the game.
"Help newbies"? Cool story, bro. Who you gonna help with that attitude?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
CW and rogues are squishy?The right thing to do!! Last time i checked metal plater armor is stronger than leather or cloth armor in V for Vendetta style..
Anyway the problem in pvp are neither the cw nor the dc.The problem is the ridicously overpoweed GWFs.Untill they nerfed pvp is broken.
I played both PVP hours today.In many cases my team was simply a better team.I could see that with the timed dailies and enc.
The opposite team had many times 2 gwf.I am a GF.The only chance to put them down was a GF and a TR /CW vs 1.Nerf them!!!
Most of them are not good gamers anyway.Button mashing.They all runing around in berserk mode.No tactics nothing.I was running around them in circles try to refil the bull charge ,the TR disorienting him while the gwf was only presing some buttons.Great gameplay.
As concerning the penalty.I am 100% for it.Today in the 6-8 matches i played ,half of them ended a travesty with 3vs 5.Or 2vs 5.
And one more thing.people leave really early.They screw all the game.They are coming to pvp for pvp yet when they see that we lose slightly by a team they running around.
And most of them have legendary/epic mounts .Today i did not see a SIMPLE HORSE PLAYER quitting.They all STAYED and FIGHTED untill the end.But the "hardcore" ,"experienced" "true" "VETS" players ARE the first to run around like chickens,QUITTING.Sad reality. "i don't want to lose ,my teammates are bad"."No no this is a **** tactic" "You don't know what are yu doing.I am out". Pretty lame.A match is about 6-8 minutes.Most people leave at 1-2 min.I thinik it is not so tragic to wait 4 minutes.After all you did not work you play a game in your chair.
Main problem of pvp is GWF.Its OP ,is out of hand.It ended up a game breaking mechanic.Today i was entagled by rangers ,backstabbed by TR,controlled by CW.I have no problem.That is their gameplay.Especialy HR i do not find anything wrong with them.It seems the ones complaining are the GWFs.
Which are really unstoppable.All classes have prons and cons.GWF do not have cons.Simple as that.They are fast they have defense they have dps.In neverwinter MMO GWFs are gods.Nerf them or improve the attack animation of the GF so that a GF could at least stall the GWF.Do something.
The issue is not that teams of different ELOs will meet but a premade and a pug with the same ELO can meet. A premade will always have a distinct advantage over a pug even with the same rating and the system doesn't adjust to that (neither within the rating, nor in the glory rewards, which are stagnant). A single player rating in a team environment is flawed by design, the player with the highest rating doesn't have to be the best player.
This is due to epic teammates that dunno how to win and how to play, imagining when u 1v3 backcapping and your rest 4 teammates chasing a red hp GWF for kills and the other 2 nodes are red, will u quit? Second case, even you are BIS and overgeared, you go mid and other 4 go base, how u feel? The other team sent 5 to mid and you have a hard time defending mid. Well you managed to do this for 3 minutes because you are overgeared but the moment u see your 4 epic teammates go to enemy base after capping base, ignoring you and let u solo tank those 4 or 5 again, will u quit? Stop asking why elites quit, ask yourself whether you will stay or not. AND RMB!! Most of us aren't overgeared, we are at 12k-15k gs, not those legendary/perfect/r10 guys.
All I can say is ^life of a DC
You forgot to add we can't even kill any of them... at least a tr or gwf kiting that many people could kill someone... we just die... albeit slowly, but still it's sad
In my opinion all this is doing is making it more so that a person who is geared will only do premades. At least im sure that's how it will be for myself. Reason being is your new elo system. That system is great. However I think there was a bit of an over sight. Chess is a 1v1 game. PvP is 5v5. Meaning that the same problem exist. You could have one geared person and 4 people that are wearing green gear. The geared person gets 28 kills 0 deaths. Everyone else has 0 kills and 30 deaths. Needless to say the match is lost. So the good person takes a loss, gets less ranking, and is doomed to be stuck in that situation useless he gets good pugs or does premades. How is this sensable? Had it been based off of individual proformace than perhaps I would be inclined to believe this to be a good system. But its not. To me you would have done far better just implementing a gs based queing system. All i see is you all dancing around the fact of whats to happen any way. Class balancing. All the time spent to develop a new system sounds great. However the same problems are still there. As you all know (not saying you specifically but some of your team members). I'm not sure how you all came to this conclusion. After some of the "testers" were ran out of PvP. You know whats not balanced. (ironically you all put in a leaving pen. even though they left while "testing" ....). With that being said I personally don't believe that you all are listening to the community. The proof in my statement is that people have not complained about not living long enough but the fact that some classes are not killable. What did you all do? Ensure that nearly unkillable would live longer..... I'm not one to rain down golden sunshine on people's parade but this one cannot be helped because its only the truth.
It is a giant leap forward to finally making pvp in Neverwinter something we will all enjoy and eagerly log on to play. But fear not puggies, I do plan on keeping my ello score as low as possible so I can queue with you all on solo adventures, helping teach you the fundamentals of pvp'ing, while still having epic premade battles.
I and many others can not wait for this patch. It can not come too soon.
It dont. because the good and bad are still rated off what their team does. Guess what that means? If you suck then you not going to get a premade. Trust me as sure as i know mmos. The elite will not loose this battle. You have 1000 points of *** kicking to look foward to unless you want to quit and take the pen. I'm not being a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just being honest. As a 16.3 pvp geared cw im sure as hell not doing it without a premade. Its pointless. So yea i welcome the changes as well. gives me more time to play other games when my friends are not on :-)
They do that everytime a thread is not favorable to them. and you know that as well as i do. They wish to keep the dreamers dreaming while the real data from actually "testing" is presented.....come on Archeage :-) I'm just spending time till then :-D
This is an ongoing thing. They dont want to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off the gwf and tr. the gwf just now is getting to be viable and the tr has always been over powered in pvp. They dont want to mess with it and just should come out and say it. but they know they will loose people so they will do something about it before its all said and done. at the end of they day they will have to class balance or people will go else where. just that simple. hate it or love it. its the truth. those are the two classes the entire community have voiced their opinions about. so if they are "listening" then why was there no of it address? thats my question. please follow up developers/cms/whatever. All i see is that you all (as always) have done what you felt like doing. Not listening to the community. Making out of the way changes. (the community has given you several quick fixes). So what do you have to say for yourself? You dont listen. You do as you please. And on top of that you have the gall to expect us to look forward to it.... wow just wow