see already gs fairytales developing in this thread, get that out of your head.
there won`t be anything based on gs.
Sounds like something your more afraid of then you should be. But whatever. Enjoy fighting premades :-). The only way to really have a high rating. cheap and cheesy huh? And we know people don't ever take that route in this game ......
GS is quite nonsensical, has an erratic behaviour, and you can easily find a way to fool it, it doesn't represent correctly the "strength" of a player (a highly geared but unexperienced pvp player will still get steamrolled by skilled players).
While occasionally, especially in the first days or so of the new matchmaking, you will find "good" players and "bad" players mixed while the system is tuning, in the long run you won't find yourself often in such parties, as hardcore players will tend to win (and go up in score) while casual players, despite occasional victory by being in a good party, will on average stay low in score.
I think you have to bare in mind. that my thoughts are just that. And that there is no perfect solution. As with anything there are always ways around it. The goal is an improvement. If there are holes fill them in as you go. Wins and losses does not rep skill either. I could be a crappy cw running with 4 over geared gwfs... odds of me loosing a match? low very low. The only way to make that kind a think work is that if it were based on individual performance and that appears to be to much to ask for. Im not looking for an elitist system im just looking for one that people are actually able to have fun with. Elo was designed as a personal rating not a group rating ( love chess). The system is a good idea but at some point it needs to incorporate personal stats (kill/deaths/heals/ bases captured/etc) see where im going with this? That way if a good player is on a not so good team they still have accomplished something. The idea of winning and loosing being the only method is far to short sighted.
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
can i please have some of the happy juice your drinking o.O. What your speaking of is a like an act of congress lol. For one most premades will have at least 2 gwfs. (you wont get up....ever unless they suck badly) ohhhh or the new thing thats going 2 gwf's 1 gf 1 tr and a dc...... yea lol (now if by some chance you do get up "prone city" lashing will be waiting..... So look lets be realistic lol In terms of balance the CW has gotten the short end of the stick in pvp. But ehh im not in denial lol and yea im 16.3 with blues 17.3 with all epics (dont really do much for my build running all epics in pvp). I agree with you on rallying a team. However you have to have something to rally. If your surround by 5-8k gs people and your fighting a geared premade its not going to happen. Even if they suck its not going to happen. Which is why i don't like the new changes because it really has done nothing to address that. Make the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> fair. A gs system would do that. People that want to do pvp on their alts they have not geared would get to fight others just doing dailies. People wanting to get a 15k gs+ team together would fight people of that caliber or close to. Hell a separate que for premades even would be nice. But ehh im dreaming ....
Due to "naming and shaming" and overzealous moderators, I can't even begin to give specifics without this being deleted. So. Will have to start off with the odds of running into a "pro" premade while pugging. There are very few top pvp'ers left, let alone playing and yes we will have to distinguish the difference between those premades. The majority of premades running when I play <5pm est -midnight est> are not top pvp teams, there are only a handful of those remaining. So skill level drops off immensely. Gear does not mean as much as understanding game mechanics of each class. < I do not mean utilizing "glitching"> If u understand what spells the other class uses, how they effect said toon, and and idea of recharge speed, ect., this will balance any fight in your favor. Too many "premades" just mash buttons and hope they kill something.
I am not in full epics. I use a pvp build, which entails blue jewelry that is spec'd for my build giving me a tilted balance again in my favor based on what I need to do, to kill say a GWF. If you are not a top GWF <and there aren't many out there anymore playing> I really have little to no fear of fighting you. So I would say 8 out of 10 matches that I pug are not against upper end players or premades of worth. Even I can't pug vs a top pvp premade and expect to win the match, but I will enjoy it regardless, even if it's just asking for 1 v 1's. I run into these very infrequently when pugging. So, pugging, is still enjoyable. There are fights in pug matches I can't get in premade v premade. Premades are trying to "win" the match by outscoring their opponents. When I pug, I am going for kill count, and kill count only. I am rushing point two, when the rest of my team runs to our point, simply to fight 3-5 people. I'm a pvp'er, dying means nothing to me, but going 5 v 1 and killing one or two of them, that is my win. And when the other team is fully focused on attempting to kill me, this allows my pugs open combat and less of a chance that any of them will be "pug stomped". They just follow me around and feel safe.
I do not feel the same way about CW's as most do. I think we are vastly over powered compared to what people think. Do I win 1 v 1's against all gwf and permas ? NO. Do I lose them all? nope. Do I get killed in 5 seconds ? nope. What I do have is a decent understanding of my class, and the other classes. I have no fear of dying in pvp, and I just love it to death.
As for the patch, I run very little CC or should I say, I don't have to, to be effective in what I do. I PvP. I don't care about shield, and don't need to use repel. I can still fight without using meatball. Choke? doesn't last long now, and I really only care about it for what it does for my build, not the actual choke <other than nullifying another cw's meatball> Chill? I'm not oppressor build, so what do I care if chill no longer works. Won't effect me much from that stand point. I won't even get into tenacity and the new pvp gear, tons of comments and videos on that. So it comes down to match making with the ello system. <long pause here due to my 5 min laughing fit>
See ya'll in pvp
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I wouldn't be too sure about this..The main reason ( I'm sure you are quite skilled) you roflstomp is due to your GS against low gs toons..With matchmaking coming up, and the nerfs to cc, you wont be stomping on 8k gs gwf anymore ( or for long )..
GS means nothing in pvp. I can swap out to my blue set < and do frequently > when pugging to drop my GS immensely. This has been stated over and over by the top pvp community. If you think GS means something, watch the dev videos many have supplied from test shard. All I do is pvp here. I don't pve. I think I have done maybe 5 dungeons total in almost a year of playing. And no, I didnt' "buy" or p2w" Way to easy to make AD in this game without resorting to buying zen.
My previous post states what I think of CC nerf in the upcoming patch. But keep this in mind, as much as people think I will be nerfed, and that tenacity is going to hurt me, Guess what. YOU face the same thing against me And I have been on test server trying it out and have a good idea of how I will change my build and gear accordingly. What I don't know, is exactly what will be changed, and what will not, until the patch is finalized. But what I can guarantee is, come 4-4-2014 <minus the 5 day head start>, I will no longer be here, as most of the remaining top pvper's. So that alone will change the pvp landscape drastically.
GS means nothing in pvp. I can swap out to my blue set < and do frequently > when pugging to drop my GS immensely. This has been stated over and over by the top pvp community. If you think GS means something, watch the dev videos many have supplied from test shard. All I do is pvp here. I don't pve. I think I have done maybe 5 dungeons total in almost a year of playing. And no, I didnt' "buy" or p2w" Way to easy to make AD in this game without resorting to buying zen.
My previous post states what I think of CC nerf in the upcoming patch. But keep this in mind, as much as people think I will be nerfed, and that tenacity is going to hurt me, Guess what. YOU face the same thing against me And I have been on test server trying it out and have a good idea of how I will change my build and gear accordingly. What I don't know, is exactly what will be changed, and what will not, until the patch is finalized. But what I can guarantee is, come 4-4-2014 <minus the 5 day head start>, I will no longer be here, as most of the remaining top pvper's. So that alone will change the pvp landscape drastically.
I know this is off topic but for some reason i just really want to see this cw o.O. I might learn something o.O and I am so **** tired of hearing that gs means nothing. that is bs to the fullest...... there is a hell of a difference between wearing green gear and epic.....so i dont know why you would even say something thats not true. And yes i am aware there are people who would try to exploit the system just as they do with everything else in the game. So? Hell from the way you speak you very well might be one of them. But i see it this way. Its a start. Not perfect but a start. And a hell of a lot better than "did you win or loose" because honestly some of the funnest matches i have ever had were losses. Did everyone work hard? heck yea! So ohh wait we didnt win so...... we get nothing? naaw thats fail. no matter how you look at it its fail.
I only care for the daily when it comes to the regular pvp.
I have found myself leaving now more than ever though. unbalanced teams for one, 2 hrs and 2 trs/cws on the same team as me. Thats a fail team right there. At least that is my experience with the previously mentioned party setup, and I have yet to have won a pvp match. and main reason, unbalanced classes.
I can understand as CWs want to stay at range, and so do most HRs. So that leaves me either DC or HR to hold point vs tanks (Gf/GEFs), Trs, Hrs, Cws concentrating one me? No thank you. So i leave/quit the match.
This quitting penalty is lame, and because of the party setup that happens players will still quit matches, i know i will penalty or not. the penalty will not discourage me at all.
I am also not advocating, a required PvP party setup, that would be all kinds of wrong. but the underlining facts of a certain class/build being ovepowered still screws players over.
Just seems to me there is some sort of pride thing going on at pwe/cryptic, they are too proud to admit they fudged things up. Instead they add duct tape to a problem that just causes more problems.
Fix the real problem with class balancing and none of this would have been a problem.
There is no such thing as Pleather Armor.
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I know this is off topic but for some reason i just really want to see this cw o.O. I might learn something o.O and I am so **** tired of hearing that gs means nothing. that is bs to the fullest...... there is a hell of a difference between wearing green gear and epic.....so i dont know why you would even say something thats not true. And yes i am aware there are people who would try to exploit the system just as they do with everything else in the game. So? Hell from the way you speak you very well might be one of them. But i see it this way. Its a start. Not perfect but a start. And a hell of a lot better than "did you win or loose" because honestly some of the funnest matches i have ever had were losses. Did everyone work hard? heck yea! So ohh wait we didnt win so...... we get nothing? naaw thats fail. no matter how you look at it its fail.
Hehe. I"m not saying it means absolutely nothing, but if u consider how cheap and easy it is to obtain blue gear, both armors and jewelry, as well as rank 5 enchants, there is no reason the majority of the people you face in pvp shouldn't have a minimum amount of GS. Unlike dungeons, pvp has no GS check which allows bots and "poorly/non geared" alts in a match. I do not find this to be the majority, but yes, I do run across them. Most of the people I face have a decent GS. Most in pvp are also pve spec'd and use pve skills during pvp.
a Quick glance in my estimation, at any given time, 50% of the people in pvp are simply there to get their daily or farm some glory and leave. They have no intention of actually participating in pvp.
of the remaining 50% I'd break it down like this.
10% actual pvp'ers. Decently to well geared, skill level will vary. what we call premades, or OP's running in pugs.
30% pvper's either on alts, or trying to pvp with what they have. they are not top geared or perhaps they do not have high enchants, but still want to pvp and have some fun. They have adequate skills and basic pvp understanding.
the remaining 10% are wannabees. They try to pvp in their pve specs perhaps their cookie cutter pvp spec, have limited knowledge of pvp and are the first to QQ. They read a guide that said the build was OP, yet they can't seem to get it to work. Most are well geared, they simply do not understand the game mechanics. They tend to be perma rogues, meat-balling mages, or the flavor of the day.
Most of the time, around 8pm est, there are over 100 pvp matches going on. A quick look and knowing the top pvp guilds, there are what at most maybe 10 matches with these at most I'd say 20 top pvp groups. which is probably pushing it as some are pugging. Leaving 180 other groups you could possibly run up against at any given time. The over all pvp ability is quite low. There is a huge gap between the top 10% and the rest of the field which is why I say, in the hands of the top 10%, GS really doesn't mean as much as people think. That top 10% would still own most, with much less GS scores. On the other hand, adding high GS to most of the low pvp'ers, will not make them good. While GS does play a role in pvp, skill is what separates most.
Hehe. I"m not saying it means absolutely nothing, but if u consider how cheap and easy it is to obtain blue gear, both armors and jewelry, as well as rank 5 enchants, there is no reason the majority of the people you face in pvp shouldn't have a minimum amount of GS. Unlike dungeons, pvp has no GS check which allows bots and "poorly/non geared" alts in a match. I do not find this to be the majority, but yes, I do run across them. Most of the people I face have a decent GS. Most in pvp are also pve spec'd and use pve skills during pvp.
a Quick glance in my estimation, at any given time, 50% of the people in pvp are simply there to get their daily or farm some glory and leave. They have no intention of actually participating in pvp.
of the remaining 50% I'd break it down like this.
10% actual pvp'ers. Decently to well geared, skill level will vary. what we call premades, or OP's running in pugs.
30% pvper's either on alts, or trying to pvp with what they have. they are not top geared or perhaps they do not have high enchants, but still want to pvp and have some fun. They have adequate skills and basic pvp understanding.
the remaining 10% are wannabees. They try to pvp in their pve specs perhaps their cookie cutter pvp spec, have limited knowledge of pvp and are the first to QQ. They read a guide that said the build was OP, yet they can't seem to get it to work. Most are well geared, they simply do not understand the game mechanics. They tend to be perma rogues, meat-balling mages, or the flavor of the day.
Most of the time, around 8pm est, there are over 100 pvp matches going on. A quick look and knowing the top pvp guilds, there are what at most maybe 10 matches with these at most I'd say 20 top pvp groups. which is probably pushing it as some are pugging. Leaving 180 other groups you could possibly run up against at any given time. The over all pvp ability is quite low. There is a huge gap between the top 10% and the rest of the field which is why I say, in the hands of the top 10%, GS really doesn't mean as much as people think. That top 10% would still own most, with much less GS scores. On the other hand, adding high GS to most of the low pvp'ers, will not make them good. While GS does play a role in pvp, skill is what separates most.
Plz give some of us credit..when we say GS matters, we are assuming both are skilled players, i.e knowledgeable of their class and that of there opponent. . If you say you can regularly ( hell even 1 out of 4 ) kill a skilled GWF in 1 vs 1, that are +/- 2k gs, then i'll call BS or post a vid..However, I agree that in 5 vs 5 DOMINATION, a group of skilled players PLAYING as a team can overcome such obstacles
Plz give some of us credit..when we say GS matters, we are assuming both are skilled players, i.e knowledgeable of their class and that of there opponent. . If you say you can regularly ( hell even 1 out of 4 ) kill a skilled GWF in 1 vs 1, that are +/- 2k gs, then i'll call BS or post a vid..However, I agree that in 5 vs 5 DOMINATION, a group of skilled players PLAYING as a team can overcome such obstacles
I can't speak for him/her, but I don't the point as that gs is absolutely meaningless. Just that it is not as meaningful as commonly believed. The massive gaps in gear score are mirrored by the massive gaps in skill. The game as it stands now IS domination. As far as the 18k bis gwf vs the 18k bis cw of equal skill it really comes down to who hits who first, who has the initiative. People forget about initiative.
Personally I am glad matchmaking is not based on GS. My CW has a fairly high GS (14k) but is completely PVE-specced. It fares very poorly vs a 14k of any other class that is PVP-specced. Based on a proper matchmaking, my CW should not be placed into the "14k" bracket, but would be more appropriately placed in a bracket that has lower GS but more similar PVP skill and gear.
just because the devs haven't confirmed or denied any change suggestions that you or anyone else in the forums have made does not mean that they are not taking the feedback with stride. as a matter of fact, in the most recent announcement about the changes, PWE staff says:
you have to remember that this is a game that begins with the devs who have stated they are big d&d fans. game development is as much of a creative outlet as film making except with gaming, at least with free expansions and constant updates and changes, they are more than willing to listen to constructive feedback. but i'm telling you, this process starts from all of the feedback given from everyone about their disappointment with something in-game and they look at how they can change it and make it better. it doesn't matter that no one asked for tenacity specifically or the combination of tenacity/matchmaking and penalties. as a company, they have to try to determine what is going to be the best solution for everyone that wants to play pvp, but can't because of this, that or the other. they have access to metrics and feedback that we don't here on the forums. go watch the last twitch stream where gentlemancrush is discussing the pvp changes and how passionate he is about what he is doing. it's pretty evident to me. ultimately, decisions are finalized based on many facets that you and i aren't privy to.
and ultimately, that doesn't mean that the devs aren't listening or haven't read every single thing that has been posted on the forums. they have access to all of it.
You know, I understand some of your points and if this were August or September of last year I would agree with you, the problem I have is I see the effect first hand everyday of the lack of PVP content and lack of incentive to PVP.
The PVP Community in this game, as you have said, has survived since open beta, but VERY few players remain (like myself) from OB. If these changes go live, I see MASSIVE consequences as I mentioned in my Post:
1) CWs - dead class
2) DCs - dead class
3) Remades - impossible to organize
Ontop of this, the T2.5 gear is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, because the feedback players have been giving about the lack of appropriate/desired stats has either been heard and ignored, or not heard at all. The T2 items are BETTER than the T2.5 items.
Ontop of that, NOT having announced any new pvp maps, and any new pvp gametypes is VERY disheartening, while I cross my fingers and hope this is a Mod 3 thing, I also know that if they do not do pvp justice this module, there will be a mass exodus from many of the "old" players (meaning players who have been here 6 months+).
Ontop of that, the PVP community has been CRYING out for Foundry PVP to which the DEVs respond they are not pursuing that avenue. The BIGGEST asset this game has is foundry, I have played Foundry Dungeons that BLOW the current ones out of the water. I would imagine that Foundry PVP maps would be the same.
What I would ask YOU melodywhr to do is get in touch with a DEV or even Sominator and make this things apparent to him or them, so we can all atleast have acknowledgement that THIS feedback is heard. Also while I get the DEVs have this as a creative outlet AND that they have other sources of "data" as you put it, Players like myself ALSO have other sources of "data" the DEVs are not privy to as well - meaning sincere feedback from players who DONT take time to communicate to the DEVs.
While SOME of my posts represent my own opinions, other posts like this represent a LARGE majority of the pvp community. Heck you can even call me the "PVP CM" if you want. At the end of the day, there are not alot of players who have logged more PVP hours than I have, there are handfuls of players left who have all given the same feedback...
I personally LIKE tenacity, I think it has potential, I like matchmaking AND leaver penalty. What I dont like is that CWs control is worthless in PVP. DCs heals are worthless in PVP and premades (the backbones of PVP) are going extinct not only because of lack of content/incentive but also this leaver penalty will be what finally wipes it out.
ALL this, I am STILL hopeful with the game or I wouldnt be here anymore, but I know ALOT of players are at the end of their rope with this game and PVP and I want to present "here is why" to the DEVs so they can address the complaints of the community and hopefully do something about it.
Thanks
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You know, I understand some of your points and if this were August or September of last year I would agree with you, the problem I have is I see the effect first hand everyday of the lack of PVP content and lack of incentive to PVP.
The PVP Community in this game, as you have said, has survived since open beta, but VERY few players remain (like myself) from OB. If these changes go live, I see MASSIVE consequences as I mentioned in my Post:
1) CWs - dead class
2) DCs - dead class
3) Remades - impossible to organize
Ontop of this, the T2.5 gear is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, because the feedback players have been giving about the lack of appropriate/desired stats has either been heard and ignored, or not heard at all. The T2 items are BETTER than the T2.5 items.
Ontop of that, NOT having announced any new pvp maps, and any new pvp gametypes is VERY disheartening, while I cross my fingers and hope this is a Mod 3 thing, I also know that if they do not do pvp justice this module, there will be a mass exodus from many of the "old" players (meaning players who have been here 6 months+).
Ontop of that, the PVP community has been CRYING out for Foundry PVP to which the DEVs respond they are not pursuing that avenue. The BIGGEST asset this game has is foundry, I have played Foundry Dungeons that BLOW the current ones out of the water. I would imagine that Foundry PVP maps would be the same.
What I would ask YOU melodywhr to do is get in touch with a DEV or even Sominator and make this things apparent to him or them, so we can all atleast have acknowledgement that THIS feedback is heard. Also while I get the DEVs have this as a creative outlet AND that they have other sources of "data" as you put it, Players like myself ALSO have other sources of "data" the DEVs are not privy to as well - meaning sincere feedback from players who DONT take time to communicate to the DEVs.
While SOME of my posts represent my own opinions, other posts like this represent a LARGE majority of the pvp community. Heck you can even call me the "PVP CM" if you want. At the end of the day, there are not alot of players who have logged more PVP hours than I have, there are handfuls of players left who have all given the same feedback...
I personally LIKE tenacity, I think it has potential, I like matchmaking AND leaver penalty. What I dont like is that CWs control is worthless in PVP. DCs heals are worthless in PVP and premades (the backbones of PVP) are going extinct not only because of lack of content/incentive but also this leaver penalty will be what finally wipes it out.
ALL this, I am STILL hopeful with the game or I wouldnt be here anymore, but I know ALOT of players are at the end of their rope with this game and PVP and I want to present "here is why" to the DEVs so they can address the complaints of the community and hopefully do something about it.
Thanks
Well said! Good points about adding new content instead for example new PvP Battlegrounds or other forms of PvP example Capture the Flag.
Coldly said the community is not united in wishing a matchmaking in the first place. I never wanted it and neither wanted my casual real life friend any matchmaking to this game. Thank god Gauntlgrym does not have matchmaking and I will enjoy killing low gs players still in Gauntlgrym as it should be!
I dont like this attitude that melodywhr thinks we are one happy community singing cumbaja with matchmaking system. That said I accept the changes and adapt to them. Stop saying we are all good community members wanting matchmaking and my perspective on high gs killing low gs players is same as this evil Werewolf logic regarding morals of killing:
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well said! Good points about adding new content instead for example new PvP Battlegrounds or other forms of PvP example Capture the Flag.
Coldly said the community is not united in wishing a matchmaking in the first place. I never wanted it and neither wanted my casual real life friend any matchmaking to this game. Thank god Gauntlgrym does not have matchmaking and I will enjoy killing low gs players still in Gauntlgrym as it should be!
I dont like this attitude that melodywhr thinks we are one happy community singing cumbaja with matchmaking system. That said I accept the changes and adapt to them. Stop saying we are all good community members wanting matchmaking and my perspective on high gs killing low gs players is same as this evil Werewolf logic regarding morals of killing:
Errm... everybody has their match. Don't get too proud cause you kill newbies.
I am honestly surprised that so few have touched on the prospect of a "penalty" for leaving a match will now encroach on PvE content. Leave and be unable to queue up for dungeon or skirmish content for 30 minutes? Are you kidding me?
If this goes live then the game will fundamentally become more and more based around PvP which accounts for maybe 5% of the total content. Penalties as a whole are entirely counter productive to begin with but forcing them upon players and forcing them further upon all aspects of multi playing modes is a game killer and I am truly astounded that the developers would even consider such. This is attempting to fix the game by breaking the game.
I also don't understand just how they came up with this ELO system for "ranking" players when all they really need to do was modify the queueing process. It seems that a choice was made to implement the more difficult to develop solution that will get lesser results. Again I am truly astounded.
Tenacity is the one thing I think k truly can have potential but it is being implemented improperly and as has been stated it will destroy certain classes in PvP. Personally I think they should have looked to making the deflection stout directly counter the crit stat similar to how armor pen counters defense. This way there is no need to code in a new stat and there is no nerf to control durations while at the same time spike damage gets reduced which was the entire point for tenacity to begin with.
What I would ask YOU melodywhr to do is get in touch with a DEV or even Sominator and make this things apparent to him or them, so we can all atleast have acknowledgement that THIS feedback is heard. Also while I get the DEVs have this as a creative outlet AND that they have other sources of "data" as you put it, Players like myself ALSO have other sources of "data" the DEVs are not privy to as well - meaning sincere feedback from players who DONT take time to communicate to the DEVs.
i'm a community moderator. it's not part of my job to push any particular agenda. the best that we can do is the same as you and that's provide our feedback here on the forums and trust that the developers will consider what we're saying. ultimately, PWE will make their decisions based on a number of internal points that we just don't have access to.
What I dont like is that CWs control is worthless in PVP.
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Some examples of how the PvP neverwinter is totally flawed and could not be called PvP.
The bad thing in Neverwinter PvP:
If one group decides not to fight and not get any of towers the match takes 6min to be ended this without even having fought anyone.
Most players do not attend the forum and someone who calls himself a "PvP community" does not represent the majority of players.
This new system is more a penalty for entering the PvP and not to leave the PvP on the grounds that any good player is already tired of repeating, "Unbalanced Classes!".
One thing that makes the difference are the enchantments that do not count as "Gear Score", an example: A player with "13k gs" with lesser enchantment and another with "13k gs" with prefect enchantments, it is obvious that what has perfect enchantments have much advantage over another player.
And the last reason I think most good players will agree with me is that the "PvP" is not "PvP" but a race.
--
Good players want to fight against players of equivalent where that will differentiate level the match is the skill of each player and not the classes that he chose, or how much time or money invested that particular player. The PvP neverwinter seems to be done so that "some" inflate their egos.
Some suggestions:
Place a option where players create groups and give them names and these groups appear in a list where other groups might challenge them.
Block inventory and character window would prevent the player to swap their equipment while in battle.
Confirm the enchantments of weapons and armor as "Gear Score".
I agree that GS should not be factored into the matchmaking system. I am not part of a PvP guild, but PvP is always my main focus in every single online game I play. If there is no PvP system, I don't play it, period. That being said, I pug domination every single day. Sometimes I duo queue with other skilled players I have met in domination matches. My GS is sitting right at 13k. Not really high, but not really low. I encounter PvE specced/geared players on a regular basis in domination that just don't have a clue what they are doing. From HR's spamming rain of arrows and thorn ward to GWF's that can't seem to land a single prone on me, despite me being practically in their face for entire fights. Many of these players are very well geared. You can generally tell by the high amount of damage they deal while also taking massive amounts of damage. Gearscore is not an accurate representation of a players effectiveness and/or skill level.
On the subject of a deserter penalty. I see a lot of people complaining this will be implemented. Well, these are likely the players who quit matches on a regular basis. I don't care what you say, if you leave a match in progress, for any reason, you deserve to be locked out for 30 minutes. Don't like it? Don't PvP. A deserter penalty is definitely a good idea. Especially with matchmaking and a ladder system just around the corner. To a true PvP player, PvP matters just as much as PvE does to those of you who love running easy *** dungeons with easy *** scripted encounters where the enemies do the exact same thing every time you run the dungeon. You wouldn't want a PvPer coming into your DD 5 man group and bailing on you in the middle of a boss fight, so don't do that to PvP players in PvP matches.
What I would really like to see implemented is a lock-out on queuing with more than 2 people. I.E. you can either solo queue for a domination match, duo queue, or 5 man queue, but nothing else. Match 5 man premade teams with 5 man premade teams only, and solo/duo queue pugs with solo/duo queue pugs only. I think this would cut down on pugstomping, prevent win trading, and eliminate the pug vs premade factor.
lol why '''the ranking within the elo system will initially be behind the scenes.''' what is reason? we want to see it and fight or higer ranks give some purpose to play pvp its just lame to not show ranked players
how do you even que with someone in a party if all are different rankings haha.
which you can`t see
it takes an avarage then ? hahaha
but why hide those numbers, lots of people just want to see it.
only ones that don`t want to see are the sometimesplaypvpplayers
they`re not forced to look at it.
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Devs Wrote: Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Then what is the point of Tenacity? It's supposed to offer CC resist and now you're taking away the CC resist? Just take away the stat! Not a single CW armor set has Deflection, which is now your best defensive stat due to healing regeneration.
Then what is the point of Tenacity? It's supposed to offer CC resist and now you're taking away the CC resist? Just take away the stat! Not a single CW armor set has Deflection, which is now your best defensive stat due to healing regeneration.
The point seems to be to focus PvP roles more. So CW gets to do more control than anyone else because they can ignore some of the CC resist from Tenacity. Maybe other classes will also have similar advantages. This brings some differentiation into PvP combat.
Then what is the point of Tenacity? It's supposed to offer CC resist and now you're taking away the CC resist? Just take away the stat! Not a single CW armor set has Deflection, which is now your best defensive stat due to healing regeneration.
Look at a simple comparison between GWF's and CW's.
GWF's have high defense, high damage, high mobility and high control. They are beasts in PvP, plain and simple.
CW's have low defense, high damage, low to medium mobility and high control. They can do some damage in PvP but are also fairly squishy and vulnerable.
Moving a GWF from high contol to low control still leaves them with high defense, high damage and high mobility. A Control Wizard with no control is dead. A GWF can close the gap, and burn you down at-will if you have no means of control to help keep him off of you.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
lol why '''the ranking within the elo system will initially be behind the scenes.''' what is reason? we want to see it and fight or higer ranks give some purpose to play pvp its just lame to not show ranked players
The penalty system isn't going to make alot of us even want to do much PvP anymore, i mean why should i have to stay if my team has obviously lost, or if im having 0 fun whatsoever? Is fighting 3 perma rouges with perfect vorpals going to be a blast? No, it's frustrating and downright annoying to even attempt to play against.
No, ranking will not solve anything, people will then just lose on purpose....look at any decent game that uses ELO at all. If i can only get glort from PvP why would i make my fights harder? Alot of people just do it to farm glory and they will lose on purpose (just like in other games), so that they can farm low level players.
Forcing people to "play" is just going to drive people in mass.
It is funny/disgusting how people want everything to be 'fair' and easier for them. Fighting perma rogues tough? Change tactics to something that will work. God forbid you have to hit 'P' and step out of your comfort zone to find success.
'Why should I have to stay when my team has obviously lost?' Eww. You stay because THAT'S THE GAME. You only want to finish if your team is winning??! THAT'S the reason we need a penalty for quitters. Stay 'til the job's done.
Yucko
*Legit Community*
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Comments
Sounds like something your more afraid of then you should be. But whatever. Enjoy fighting premades :-). The only way to really have a high rating. cheap and cheesy huh? And we know people don't ever take that route in this game ......
I think you have to bare in mind. that my thoughts are just that. And that there is no perfect solution. As with anything there are always ways around it. The goal is an improvement. If there are holes fill them in as you go. Wins and losses does not rep skill either. I could be a crappy cw running with 4 over geared gwfs... odds of me loosing a match? low very low. The only way to make that kind a think work is that if it were based on individual performance and that appears to be to much to ask for. Im not looking for an elitist system im just looking for one that people are actually able to have fun with. Elo was designed as a personal rating not a group rating ( love chess). The system is a good idea but at some point it needs to incorporate personal stats (kill/deaths/heals/ bases captured/etc) see where im going with this? That way if a good player is on a not so good team they still have accomplished something. The idea of winning and loosing being the only method is far to short sighted.
Due to "naming and shaming" and overzealous moderators, I can't even begin to give specifics without this being deleted. So. Will have to start off with the odds of running into a "pro" premade while pugging. There are very few top pvp'ers left, let alone playing and yes we will have to distinguish the difference between those premades. The majority of premades running when I play <5pm est -midnight est> are not top pvp teams, there are only a handful of those remaining. So skill level drops off immensely. Gear does not mean as much as understanding game mechanics of each class. < I do not mean utilizing "glitching"> If u understand what spells the other class uses, how they effect said toon, and and idea of recharge speed, ect., this will balance any fight in your favor. Too many "premades" just mash buttons and hope they kill something.
I am not in full epics. I use a pvp build, which entails blue jewelry that is spec'd for my build giving me a tilted balance again in my favor based on what I need to do, to kill say a GWF. If you are not a top GWF <and there aren't many out there anymore playing> I really have little to no fear of fighting you. So I would say 8 out of 10 matches that I pug are not against upper end players or premades of worth. Even I can't pug vs a top pvp premade and expect to win the match, but I will enjoy it regardless, even if it's just asking for 1 v 1's. I run into these very infrequently when pugging. So, pugging, is still enjoyable. There are fights in pug matches I can't get in premade v premade. Premades are trying to "win" the match by outscoring their opponents. When I pug, I am going for kill count, and kill count only. I am rushing point two, when the rest of my team runs to our point, simply to fight 3-5 people. I'm a pvp'er, dying means nothing to me, but going 5 v 1 and killing one or two of them, that is my win. And when the other team is fully focused on attempting to kill me, this allows my pugs open combat and less of a chance that any of them will be "pug stomped". They just follow me around and feel safe.
I do not feel the same way about CW's as most do. I think we are vastly over powered compared to what people think. Do I win 1 v 1's against all gwf and permas ? NO. Do I lose them all? nope. Do I get killed in 5 seconds ? nope. What I do have is a decent understanding of my class, and the other classes. I have no fear of dying in pvp, and I just love it to death.
As for the patch, I run very little CC or should I say, I don't have to, to be effective in what I do. I PvP. I don't care about shield, and don't need to use repel. I can still fight without using meatball. Choke? doesn't last long now, and I really only care about it for what it does for my build, not the actual choke <other than nullifying another cw's meatball> Chill? I'm not oppressor build, so what do I care if chill no longer works. Won't effect me much from that stand point. I won't even get into tenacity and the new pvp gear, tons of comments and videos on that. So it comes down to match making with the ello system. <long pause here due to my 5 min laughing fit>
See ya'll in pvp
GS means nothing in pvp. I can swap out to my blue set < and do frequently > when pugging to drop my GS immensely. This has been stated over and over by the top pvp community. If you think GS means something, watch the dev videos many have supplied from test shard. All I do is pvp here. I don't pve. I think I have done maybe 5 dungeons total in almost a year of playing. And no, I didnt' "buy" or p2w" Way to easy to make AD in this game without resorting to buying zen.
My previous post states what I think of CC nerf in the upcoming patch. But keep this in mind, as much as people think I will be nerfed, and that tenacity is going to hurt me, Guess what. YOU face the same thing against me
I know this is off topic but for some reason i just really want to see this cw o.O. I might learn something o.O and I am so **** tired of hearing that gs means nothing. that is bs to the fullest...... there is a hell of a difference between wearing green gear and epic.....so i dont know why you would even say something thats not true. And yes i am aware there are people who would try to exploit the system just as they do with everything else in the game. So? Hell from the way you speak you very well might be one of them. But i see it this way. Its a start. Not perfect but a start. And a hell of a lot better than "did you win or loose" because honestly some of the funnest matches i have ever had were losses. Did everyone work hard? heck yea! So ohh wait we didnt win so...... we get nothing? naaw thats fail. no matter how you look at it its fail.
I have found myself leaving now more than ever though. unbalanced teams for one, 2 hrs and 2 trs/cws on the same team as me. Thats a fail team right there. At least that is my experience with the previously mentioned party setup, and I have yet to have won a pvp match. and main reason, unbalanced classes.
I can understand as CWs want to stay at range, and so do most HRs. So that leaves me either DC or HR to hold point vs tanks (Gf/GEFs), Trs, Hrs, Cws concentrating one me? No thank you. So i leave/quit the match.
This quitting penalty is lame, and because of the party setup that happens players will still quit matches, i know i will penalty or not. the penalty will not discourage me at all.
I am also not advocating, a required PvP party setup, that would be all kinds of wrong. but the underlining facts of a certain class/build being ovepowered still screws players over.
Just seems to me there is some sort of pride thing going on at pwe/cryptic, they are too proud to admit they fudged things up. Instead they add duct tape to a problem that just causes more problems.
Fix the real problem with class balancing and none of this would have been a problem.
Hehe. I"m not saying it means absolutely nothing, but if u consider how cheap and easy it is to obtain blue gear, both armors and jewelry, as well as rank 5 enchants, there is no reason the majority of the people you face in pvp shouldn't have a minimum amount of GS. Unlike dungeons, pvp has no GS check which allows bots and "poorly/non geared" alts in a match. I do not find this to be the majority, but yes, I do run across them. Most of the people I face have a decent GS. Most in pvp are also pve spec'd and use pve skills during pvp.
a Quick glance in my estimation, at any given time, 50% of the people in pvp are simply there to get their daily or farm some glory and leave. They have no intention of actually participating in pvp.
of the remaining 50% I'd break it down like this.
10% actual pvp'ers. Decently to well geared, skill level will vary. what we call premades, or OP's running in pugs.
30% pvper's either on alts, or trying to pvp with what they have. they are not top geared or perhaps they do not have high enchants, but still want to pvp and have some fun. They have adequate skills and basic pvp understanding.
the remaining 10% are wannabees. They try to pvp in their pve specs perhaps their cookie cutter pvp spec, have limited knowledge of pvp and are the first to QQ. They read a guide that said the build was OP, yet they can't seem to get it to work. Most are well geared, they simply do not understand the game mechanics. They tend to be perma rogues, meat-balling mages, or the flavor of the day.
Most of the time, around 8pm est, there are over 100 pvp matches going on. A quick look and knowing the top pvp guilds, there are what at most maybe 10 matches with these at most I'd say 20 top pvp groups. which is probably pushing it as some are pugging. Leaving 180 other groups you could possibly run up against at any given time. The over all pvp ability is quite low. There is a huge gap between the top 10% and the rest of the field which is why I say, in the hands of the top 10%, GS really doesn't mean as much as people think. That top 10% would still own most, with much less GS scores. On the other hand, adding high GS to most of the low pvp'ers, will not make them good. While GS does play a role in pvp, skill is what separates most.
Plz give some of us credit..when we say GS matters, we are assuming both are skilled players, i.e knowledgeable of their class and that of there opponent. . If you say you can regularly ( hell even 1 out of 4 ) kill a skilled GWF in 1 vs 1, that are +/- 2k gs, then i'll call BS or post a vid..However, I agree that in 5 vs 5 DOMINATION, a group of skilled players PLAYING as a team can overcome such obstacles
I totally agree with everything you've said in this thread and I hope you keep posting a lot.
Jugger Conq GF
....
I can't speak for him/her, but I don't the point as that gs is absolutely meaningless. Just that it is not as meaningful as commonly believed. The massive gaps in gear score are mirrored by the massive gaps in skill. The game as it stands now IS domination. As far as the 18k bis gwf vs the 18k bis cw of equal skill it really comes down to who hits who first, who has the initiative. People forget about initiative.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Thats kinda strange in my point of view.
You know, I understand some of your points and if this were August or September of last year I would agree with you, the problem I have is I see the effect first hand everyday of the lack of PVP content and lack of incentive to PVP.
The PVP Community in this game, as you have said, has survived since open beta, but VERY few players remain (like myself) from OB. If these changes go live, I see MASSIVE consequences as I mentioned in my Post:
1) CWs - dead class
2) DCs - dead class
3) Remades - impossible to organize
Ontop of this, the T2.5 gear is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, because the feedback players have been giving about the lack of appropriate/desired stats has either been heard and ignored, or not heard at all. The T2 items are BETTER than the T2.5 items.
Ontop of that, NOT having announced any new pvp maps, and any new pvp gametypes is VERY disheartening, while I cross my fingers and hope this is a Mod 3 thing, I also know that if they do not do pvp justice this module, there will be a mass exodus from many of the "old" players (meaning players who have been here 6 months+).
Ontop of that, the PVP community has been CRYING out for Foundry PVP to which the DEVs respond they are not pursuing that avenue. The BIGGEST asset this game has is foundry, I have played Foundry Dungeons that BLOW the current ones out of the water. I would imagine that Foundry PVP maps would be the same.
What I would ask YOU melodywhr to do is get in touch with a DEV or even Sominator and make this things apparent to him or them, so we can all atleast have acknowledgement that THIS feedback is heard. Also while I get the DEVs have this as a creative outlet AND that they have other sources of "data" as you put it, Players like myself ALSO have other sources of "data" the DEVs are not privy to as well - meaning sincere feedback from players who DONT take time to communicate to the DEVs.
While SOME of my posts represent my own opinions, other posts like this represent a LARGE majority of the pvp community. Heck you can even call me the "PVP CM" if you want. At the end of the day, there are not alot of players who have logged more PVP hours than I have, there are handfuls of players left who have all given the same feedback...
I personally LIKE tenacity, I think it has potential, I like matchmaking AND leaver penalty. What I dont like is that CWs control is worthless in PVP. DCs heals are worthless in PVP and premades (the backbones of PVP) are going extinct not only because of lack of content/incentive but also this leaver penalty will be what finally wipes it out.
ALL this, I am STILL hopeful with the game or I wouldnt be here anymore, but I know ALOT of players are at the end of their rope with this game and PVP and I want to present "here is why" to the DEVs so they can address the complaints of the community and hopefully do something about it.
Thanks
Coldly said the community is not united in wishing a matchmaking in the first place. I never wanted it and neither wanted my casual real life friend any matchmaking to this game. Thank god Gauntlgrym does not have matchmaking and I will enjoy killing low gs players still in Gauntlgrym as it should be!
I dont like this attitude that melodywhr thinks we are one happy community singing cumbaja with matchmaking system. That said I accept the changes and adapt to them. Stop saying we are all good community members wanting matchmaking and my perspective on high gs killing low gs players is same as this evil Werewolf logic regarding morals of killing:
Errm... everybody has their match. Don't get too proud cause you kill newbies.
If this goes live then the game will fundamentally become more and more based around PvP which accounts for maybe 5% of the total content. Penalties as a whole are entirely counter productive to begin with but forcing them upon players and forcing them further upon all aspects of multi playing modes is a game killer and I am truly astounded that the developers would even consider such. This is attempting to fix the game by breaking the game.
I also don't understand just how they came up with this ELO system for "ranking" players when all they really need to do was modify the queueing process. It seems that a choice was made to implement the more difficult to develop solution that will get lesser results. Again I am truly astounded.
Tenacity is the one thing I think k truly can have potential but it is being implemented improperly and as has been stated it will destroy certain classes in PvP. Personally I think they should have looked to making the deflection stout directly counter the crit stat similar to how armor pen counters defense. This way there is no need to code in a new stat and there is no nerf to control durations while at the same time spike damage gets reduced which was the entire point for tenacity to begin with.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
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Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
i'm a community moderator. it's not part of my job to push any particular agenda. the best that we can do is the same as you and that's provide our feedback here on the forums and trust that the developers will consider what we're saying. ultimately, PWE will make their decisions based on a number of internal points that we just don't have access to.
then you'll be interested in this:
The bad thing in Neverwinter PvP:
If one group decides not to fight and not get any of towers the match takes 6min to be ended this without even having fought anyone.
Most players do not attend the forum and someone who calls himself a "PvP community" does not represent the majority of players.
This new system is more a penalty for entering the PvP and not to leave the PvP on the grounds that any good player is already tired of repeating, "Unbalanced Classes!".
One thing that makes the difference are the enchantments that do not count as "Gear Score", an example: A player with "13k gs" with lesser enchantment and another with "13k gs" with prefect enchantments, it is obvious that what has perfect enchantments have much advantage over another player.
And the last reason I think most good players will agree with me is that the "PvP" is not "PvP" but a race.
--
Good players want to fight against players of equivalent where that will differentiate level the match is the skill of each player and not the classes that he chose, or how much time or money invested that particular player. The PvP neverwinter seems to be done so that "some" inflate their egos.
Some suggestions:
Place a option where players create groups and give them names and these groups appear in a list where other groups might challenge them.
Block inventory and character window would prevent the player to swap their equipment while in battle.
Confirm the enchantments of weapons and armor as "Gear Score".
the ranking within the elo system will initially be behind the scenes.
On the subject of a deserter penalty. I see a lot of people complaining this will be implemented. Well, these are likely the players who quit matches on a regular basis. I don't care what you say, if you leave a match in progress, for any reason, you deserve to be locked out for 30 minutes. Don't like it? Don't PvP. A deserter penalty is definitely a good idea. Especially with matchmaking and a ladder system just around the corner. To a true PvP player, PvP matters just as much as PvE does to those of you who love running easy *** dungeons with easy *** scripted encounters where the enemies do the exact same thing every time you run the dungeon. You wouldn't want a PvPer coming into your DD 5 man group and bailing on you in the middle of a boss fight, so don't do that to PvP players in PvP matches.
What I would really like to see implemented is a lock-out on queuing with more than 2 people. I.E. you can either solo queue for a domination match, duo queue, or 5 man queue, but nothing else. Match 5 man premade teams with 5 man premade teams only, and solo/duo queue pugs with solo/duo queue pugs only. I think this would cut down on pugstomping, prevent win trading, and eliminate the pug vs premade factor.
which you can`t see
it takes an avarage then ? hahaha
but why hide those numbers, lots of people just want to see it.
only ones that don`t want to see are the sometimesplaypvpplayers
they`re not forced to look at it.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Then what is the point of Tenacity? It's supposed to offer CC resist and now you're taking away the CC resist? Just take away the stat! Not a single CW armor set has Deflection, which is now your best defensive stat due to healing regeneration.
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Look at a simple comparison between GWF's and CW's.
GWF's have high defense, high damage, high mobility and high control. They are beasts in PvP, plain and simple.
CW's have low defense, high damage, low to medium mobility and high control. They can do some damage in PvP but are also fairly squishy and vulnerable.
Moving a GWF from high contol to low control still leaves them with high defense, high damage and high mobility. A Control Wizard with no control is dead. A GWF can close the gap, and burn you down at-will if you have no means of control to help keep him off of you.
+1 please make ranking visible.
No, ranking will not solve anything, people will then just lose on purpose....look at any decent game that uses ELO at all. If i can only get glort from PvP why would i make my fights harder? Alot of people just do it to farm glory and they will lose on purpose (just like in other games), so that they can farm low level players.
Forcing people to "play" is just going to drive people in mass.
'Why should I have to stay when my team has obviously lost?' Eww. You stay because THAT'S THE GAME. You only want to finish if your team is winning??! THAT'S the reason we need a penalty for quitters. Stay 'til the job's done.
Yucko
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian