tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Someone should x-post the useful stuff from the now closed coffers thread. It's relevant here and unless we get another thread for the coffers, the work done in their might fade into obscurity.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
thuldyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited November 2013
The Coffer thread wandered off track but refinement and coffers are intertwined to a degree.
Feedback: Coffers of Wondrous Augmentation: Refinement Gems
The current refinement gems sharing loot rolls with Wards have too low a reward drawer appeal to encourage long term daily log in by players (opinion of course, how could it be otherwise).
Recommendation:
Consider replacing the Refining Gems with the following pairing:
Preservation Ward/Mark of Potency
Coalescent Ward/Greater Mark of Potency
Yes i appreciate the colour differential with loot may confuse some but the nominal value is reasonably close. Also include these loot items with your intention to BoA. The point of the line of thought is not to create a new farming or AD opportunity as much as to encourage sustained attendance and possible continued play. This would also bolster the impression to those that for whatever reason become too time poor to farm Epic bosses to have yet another alternative path to improve their characters albeit a low percentage chance.
Feedback: All Resources Lost on Failure
So under the current system if my refinement fails the worst case is I loose a single Enchantment or Shard. Under the new system I loose all the Marks or all the Shards. I would much rather see the Marks drop to 10/200/15000 etc AD each and require a minimum of 2 for each fusion attempt and loose 1 on a fail.
That said the situation may be different once its live and there is an AH market as well, atm I cannot even give Marks of Power away...
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Feedback: All Resources Lost on Failure
So under the current system if my refinement fails the worst case is I loose a single Enchantment or Shard. Under the new system I loose all the Marks or all the Shards. I would much rather see the Marks drop to 10/200/15000 etc AD each and require a minimum of 2 for each fusion attempt and loose 1 on a fail.
That said the situation may be different once its live and there is an AH market as well, atm I cannot even give Marks of Power away...
Lol , I dislike this new better 'player friendly' system more and more with each passing day.
Feedback: All Resources Lost on Failure
So under the current system if my refinement fails the worst case is I lose/fxd a single Enchantment or Shard. Under the new system I lose/fxd all the Marks or all the Shards. I would much rather see the Marks drop to 10/200/15000 etc AD each and require a minimum of 2 for each fusion attempt and lose/fxd 1 on a fail.
That said the situation may be different once its live and there is an AH market as well, atm I cannot even give Marks of Power away...
Lol, just use wards since they are much easier to obtain now!
/sarcasm
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Lol, just use wards since they are much easier to obtain now!
/sarcasm
i don't know how other people go about upgrading in the current fuse system, but anything above rank 5, i'm using a preservation ward. that isn't going to change for me with the new system. six of one, half dozen of the other.
i don't know how other people go about upgrading in the current fuse system, but anything above rank 5, i'm using a preservation ward. that isn't going to change for me with the new system. six of one, half dozen of the other.
Current system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 R5 (1-3k AD value) or Pres Ward (3-5k AD value). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward every week.
New system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 Blue Reagent (25k AD value) or Pres Ward (I'm expecting them to be 3x current price). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward with 50% chance every week.
Pick one.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
i don't know how other people go about upgrading in the current fuse system, but anything above rank 5, i'm using a preservation ward. that isn't going to change for me with the new system. six of one, half dozen of the other.
Current system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 R5 (1-3k AD value) or Pres Ward (3-5k AD value). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward every week.
New system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 Blue Reagent (25k AD value) or Pres Ward (I'm expecting them to be 3x current price). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward with 50% chance every week.
Pick one.
I just copied over my main to check this but you beat me to it so pretty much what mehguy said , I also use preservation wards to fuse anything over 5 or 6 on live atm because I get them free and they are cheap in the ah , the cheap ah ones end on the 5th and the chances to get them from praying has fallen dramatically too.
Current system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 R5 (1-3k AD value) or Pres Ward (3-5k AD value). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward every week.
New system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 Blue Reagent (25k AD value) or Pres Ward (I'm expecting them to be 3x current price). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward with 50% chance every week.
Pick one.
Preservation ward cant cost more than 5k, that is the max price in zen store/ trade bars.
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valiadgrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 28Arc User
edited November 2013
As far as preservation wards go , it will be worth it to buy them from the zen shop since their average price there given the current AD/Zen exchange ratio is around 4k a piece(100 zen for 10).Actually it is worth it even now since they almost hit the 5k mark in the AH on live. But after module 2 hits given the fact that they won't drop that much from coffers their price in the AH will deffo go up , yeah.
As far as preservation wards go , it will be worth it to buy them from the zen shop since their average price there given the current AD/Zen exchange ratio is around 4k a piece(100 zen for 10).Actually it is worth it even now since they almost hit the 5k mark in the AH on live. But after module 2 hits given the fact that they won't drop that much from coffers their price in the AH will deffo go up , yeah.
if the price on zen store is 4k ad i dont see why the price would increase on ah,ppl will start to buy them on zen and sell them on ah if that happens....
Because all the changes point to zen becoming much higher than 400 ad each.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2013
People already do buy preservation wards for Zen and sell them on the AH at markup. I'd estimate that's where 90% of the pres wards on the AH have been coming from, certainly most of the stacks of 5, 10, and 20.
if the price on zen store is 4k ad i dont see why the price would increase on ah,ppl will start to buy them on zen and sell them on ah if that happens....
Allow me to break it down for yah. 500AD : 1 zen is the highest ratio for buying Zen allowed in the game.
Preservation wards are sold at 100 zen for 10 (50k total)
Ergo, you'd be paying 5000 AD per P.ward.
However, if you sell them in the AH for that much, you're losing 500 AD a sale, due to the 10% AH fee. (to break even, you'd have to sell them ~5556 AD)
But right now, AD:Zen price is hovering around 400. Man do I miss the days on Mindflayer when it was down in the low 300s. lol
Current refinement system could be not that bad, if you get your RP from drops instead of buying them. You can basically take anything you loot and throw it in to refine your enchant.
Just guess preservation wards will be a must to upgrade from grade 5 up. But no more need for hundreads of the same enchant.
The wall that prevents people to easily get rank 7-8-9-10 is the fact that you need a lots of points to refine. On the other hand, you don't have to worry about putting together a ton of the same enchant to upgrade. Just throw in everything you loot, save some AD for catalysts, and upgrade using preservation wards that are relatively cheap. Can push both the usage of zen-AD Exchange, and the purchase of wards via zen store (1$ for 10 wards is not too much, right?).
This is why you don't see what i see. I fixed the numbers for you.
You multiply the old system vorpals by 40,000 even though they would cost 20,000 not 40,000 because you needed more of them = they would cost less.
I will repeat it 1 more time, and then i give up on going through your concrete skull.
More demand & More buyers & less amount needed & Same drop rate = higher price.
And higher prices = less buyers & less demand thus driving price back down after the initial frenzy settles down. If you're going to try saying "Economics 101", you need to include the rest of the argument. The economy will eventually equalize. Will the equalized prices be higher? Maybe. You're also not figuring in whether there will be a change in the size of the available AD on the market. Depending on how well this AD sink works, the value of AD to players could become too high, they will refuse to pay the higher prices, and sellers will eventually start lowering prices because they need AD income. There are way too many factors to boil it down to your simplified equation.
Current refinement system could be not that bad, if you get your RP from drops instead of buying them. You can basically take anything you loot and throw it in to refine your enchant.
Just guess preservation wards will be a must to upgrade from grade 5 up. But no more need for hundreads of the same enchant.
The wall that prevents people to easily get rank 7-8-9-10 is the fact that you need a lots of points to refine. On the other hand, you don't have to worry about putting together a ton of the same enchant to upgrade. Just throw in everything you loot, save some AD for catalysts, and upgrade using preservation wards that are relatively cheap. Can push both the usage of zen-AD Exchange, and the purchase of wards via zen store (1$ for 10 wards is not too much, right?).
Preservation wards are currently useless. Well, not useless, but the advantage of them not getting used up if the upgrade is successful is gone at the moment. I've reported it multiple times (even in this thread) and it hasn't been fixed yet.
Current system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 R5 (1-3k AD value) or Pres Ward (3-5k AD value). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward every week.
New system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 Blue Reagent (25k AD value) or Pres Ward (I'm expecting them to be 3x current price). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward with 50% chance every week.
Pick one.
Such guys like you have to think about what they write.
PW and CW drop reducing isn't part of the new refinement system! So you have to overkill your argument vs. the new develop. 600 PW for R10 vs. ~50 PW for R10!(old vs. new system)
And if you think you can use the reagents from wondrous basar as base, why you don't do it with the R3 from it? 50k for each! That's about 16 of each for every R5 you fail use. That's about 800k! against the 25k! You got powned by yourself!
Such guys like you have to think about what they write.
PW and CW drop reducing isn't part of the new refinement system! So you have to overkill your argument vs. the new develop. 600 PW for R10 vs. ~50 PW for R10!(old vs. new system)
And if you think you can use the reagents from wondrous basar as base, why you don't do it with the R3 from it? 50k for each! That's about 16 of each for every R5 you fail use. That's about 800k! against the 25k! You got powned by yourself!
I don't think you understand what mehguy138 was talking about , he wasn't talking about the overall cost of making anything , he was talking about the cost of the items he could lose and comparing the old system to the new one .
White knight much? How is what he is saying a conspiracy? A Theory by all means.
Looking at the current exchange rate with a sale on its not unreasonable to imagine it easily hitting the current cap easily down the road with more coming pressure on that in Mod2.
So when its evident that 500 is too low (not enough people selling zen/buying zen with $$ and too many buying with AD) raising that cap is hardly a conspiracy. As you say its market driven. The market cant drive it if its capped at 500 and sitting at that regularly.
Looking at the current exchange rate with a sale on its not unreasonable to imagine it easily hitting the current cap easily down the road with more coming pressure on that in Mod2.
So when its evident that 500 is too low (not enough people buying zen with $$ and too many buying with AD) raising that cap is hardly a conspiracy. As you say its market driven. The market cant drive it if its capped at 500 and sitting at that regularly.
the market has continually fluctuated just like any market. just because it's at the high end doesn't mean it's going to hit cap. but also considering that since cryptic/pwe can change whatever they want at their discretion, even if the cap was removed, it would be in response to the player-driven market... not for any other reason. if that includes people buying zen, who cares? it's not like the doom/gloomers are looking at the company financials... those arguments are driven more by flames/hate rather than constructive feedback and criticism.
I don't think you understand what mehguy138 was talking about , he wasn't talking about the overall cost of making anything , he was talking about the cost of the items he could lose and comparing the old system to the new one .
Oh you don't understand. With the old system he lose 800k AD. With the new only 25k.
Yes the market always fluctuates but has always trended upwards. In mod2 there is a permanent increase to the exchange pressure with AD>Zen>Keys>Lockboxes>Tradebars>Coalwards now that the Coffer drop is 15% down to 4% and Pres wards 85% down to 30%. I could pretend nothing will change becuase 'we dont know yet', or we could use some market history on what extra incentives to have zen have done to the exchange. It was at 82% of cap 2hrs ago.
You are right "because its at the high end doesnt mean it going to hit the cap". If that is only what we were basing this off you would get 10 points for a good strawman. Given some facts 1) This fluctuating market has always trended upwards. 2) More pressure on exchange rate is coming in mod2 unless there is some major backtracking (how major or minor is yet unknown). 3) Prior to the latest sale the exchange was trending around 80% of the cap.
Its possible under the current live and proposed preview changes IMHO (you are entitled to disagree) this could easily hit the cap.
The decisions of Cryptic may sit just fine for you but probably best not to judge those who this doesnt sit so well with. Not everyone is as accepting.
Yes the market always fluctuates but has always trended upwards. In mod2 there is a permanent increase to the exchange pressure with AD>Zen>Keys>Lockboxes>Tradebars>Coalwards now that the Coffer drop is 15% down to 4% and Pres wards 85% down to 30%. I could pretend nothing will change becuase 'we dont know yet', or we could use some market history on what extra incentives to have zen have done to the exchange. It was at 82% of cap 2hrs ago.
You are right "because its at the high end doesnt mean it going to hit the cap". If that is only what we were basing this off you would get 10 points for a good strawman. Given some facts 1) This fluctuating market has always trended upwards. 2) More pressure on exchange rate is coming in mod2 unless there is some major backtracking (how major or minor is yet unknown). 3) Prior to the latest sale the exchange was trending around 80% of the cap.
Its possible under the current live and proposed preview changes IMHO (you are entitled to disagree) this could easily hit the cap.
The decisions of Cryptic may sit just fine for you but probably best not to judge those who this doesnt sit so well with. Not everyone is as accepting.
Don't argue because of changing Coffer. That's another patchpart, but not the part of the refinement system! And all hysteric posts that only dependent that the refinement system is worse due the coffer change/market change due this are invalid.
Dont argue because i dont like something? Sage advice - i suggest you have some.
No hysteria involved at all - discussion only.
Wait dont discuss coffers here because they arent part of the refinement system..... What are those pretty shinies inside those coffers used for? All of those items are used for refinement. So as that thread is no longer available, this thread is as relevant as it gets.
I never said the new refinement system is worse due to coffer changes and zen exchange.
I said, in prior posts, costs are higher at lower ranks and lower at upper ranks, doesnt reduce the time by any practical time frame. Its worse because has more moving parts/more complex and more expensive for the people this entire system it was aimed at. Btw some people dont really care what the maths work out to be for R9's&10s. They care about the ranks immediately in front of them. In some cases it will cost them more for this. Slice that however you wish.
The new system does not seem to add appeal to previous people who did not use it save for the ability to use any enchantment type to refine with. I've left off removal costs as you say this is not part of the refinement process.
the market has continually fluctuated just like any market. just because it's at the high end doesn't mean it's going to hit cap. but also considering that since cryptic/pwe can change whatever they want at their discretion, even if the cap was removed, it would be in response to the player-driven market... not for any other reason. if that includes people buying zen, who cares? it's not like the doom/gloomers are looking at the company financials... those arguments are driven more by flames/hate rather than constructive feedback and criticism.
I've got just one question: If the market would be exclusively player driven and therefore can't be manipulated from outside, what do you think would happen if they'd make AD sales instead of ZEN sales? Like a discount for upgrading companions or at the Wondrous Bazaar or fee-free days at the AH.
Comments
Dev tracker is the closest thing you'll get to that.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/devtracker.php
awesome syka! thx heaps!
Feedback: Coffers of Wondrous Augmentation: Refinement Gems
The current refinement gems sharing loot rolls with Wards have too low a reward drawer appeal to encourage long term daily log in by players (opinion of course, how could it be otherwise).
Recommendation:
Consider replacing the Refining Gems with the following pairing:
Preservation Ward/Mark of Potency
Coalescent Ward/Greater Mark of Potency
Yes i appreciate the colour differential with loot may confuse some but the nominal value is reasonably close. Also include these loot items with your intention to BoA. The point of the line of thought is not to create a new farming or AD opportunity as much as to encourage sustained attendance and possible continued play. This would also bolster the impression to those that for whatever reason become too time poor to farm Epic bosses to have yet another alternative path to improve their characters albeit a low percentage chance.
Thank you for your consideration.
So under the current system if my refinement fails the worst case is I loose a single Enchantment or Shard. Under the new system I loose all the Marks or all the Shards. I would much rather see the Marks drop to 10/200/15000 etc AD each and require a minimum of 2 for each fusion attempt and loose 1 on a fail.
That said the situation may be different once its live and there is an AH market as well, atm I cannot even give Marks of Power away...
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Lol , I dislike this new better 'player friendly' system more and more with each passing day.
Lol, just use wards since they are much easier to obtain now!
/sarcasm
i don't know how other people go about upgrading in the current fuse system, but anything above rank 5, i'm using a preservation ward. that isn't going to change for me with the new system. six of one, half dozen of the other.
Current system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 R5 (1-3k AD value) or Pres Ward (3-5k AD value). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward every week.
New system. To make 1 R6 I've got 40% chance of success. If I fail, I'll lose 1 Blue Reagent (25k AD value) or Pres Ward (I'm expecting them to be 3x current price). I'm getting 1 free Pres Ward with 50% chance every week.
Pick one.
I just copied over my main to check this but you beat me to it so pretty much what mehguy said , I also use preservation wards to fuse anything over 5 or 6 on live atm because I get them free and they are cheap in the ah , the cheap ah ones end on the 5th and the chances to get them from praying has fallen dramatically too.
Preservation ward cant cost more than 5k, that is the max price in zen store/ trade bars.
and if u buy with promo week = less 3000k each
if the price on zen store is 4k ad i dont see why the price would increase on ah,ppl will start to buy them on zen and sell them on ah if that happens....
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Allow me to break it down for yah. 500AD : 1 zen is the highest ratio for buying Zen allowed in the game.
Preservation wards are sold at 100 zen for 10 (50k total)
Ergo, you'd be paying 5000 AD per P.ward.
However, if you sell them in the AH for that much, you're losing 500 AD a sale, due to the 10% AH fee. (to break even, you'd have to sell them ~5556 AD)
But right now, AD:Zen price is hovering around 400. Man do I miss the days on Mindflayer when it was down in the low 300s. lol
Current refinement system could be not that bad, if you get your RP from drops instead of buying them. You can basically take anything you loot and throw it in to refine your enchant.
Just guess preservation wards will be a must to upgrade from grade 5 up. But no more need for hundreads of the same enchant.
The wall that prevents people to easily get rank 7-8-9-10 is the fact that you need a lots of points to refine. On the other hand, you don't have to worry about putting together a ton of the same enchant to upgrade. Just throw in everything you loot, save some AD for catalysts, and upgrade using preservation wards that are relatively cheap. Can push both the usage of zen-AD Exchange, and the purchase of wards via zen store (1$ for 10 wards is not too much, right?).
And higher prices = less buyers & less demand thus driving price back down after the initial frenzy settles down. If you're going to try saying "Economics 101", you need to include the rest of the argument. The economy will eventually equalize. Will the equalized prices be higher? Maybe. You're also not figuring in whether there will be a change in the size of the available AD on the market. Depending on how well this AD sink works, the value of AD to players could become too high, they will refuse to pay the higher prices, and sellers will eventually start lowering prices because they need AD income. There are way too many factors to boil it down to your simplified equation.
Rar'rizton Kenana, Level 60 Drow Elf Trickster Rogue
Syrus Greycloak, Level 30 Moon Elf Control Wizard
Lucan Huntinghawk, Level 17 Moon Elf Hunter Ranger
Sacred Silver Blades (www.sacredkeep.com)
Preservation wards are currently useless. Well, not useless, but the advantage of them not getting used up if the upgrade is successful is gone at the moment. I've reported it multiple times (even in this thread) and it hasn't been fixed yet.
Rar'rizton Kenana, Level 60 Drow Elf Trickster Rogue
Syrus Greycloak, Level 30 Moon Elf Control Wizard
Lucan Huntinghawk, Level 17 Moon Elf Hunter Ranger
Sacred Silver Blades (www.sacredkeep.com)
Such guys like you have to think about what they write.
PW and CW drop reducing isn't part of the new refinement system! So you have to overkill your argument vs. the new develop. 600 PW for R10 vs. ~50 PW for R10!(old vs. new system)
And if you think you can use the reagents from wondrous basar as base, why you don't do it with the R3 from it? 50k for each! That's about 16 of each for every R5 you fail use. That's about 800k! against the 25k! You got powned by yourself!
Yeah but it's easy for Cryptic to raise the bar. And I wouldn't be surprised if they did, because more ADs per ZEN will boost ZEN sales.
I don't think you understand what mehguy138 was talking about , he wasn't talking about the overall cost of making anything , he was talking about the cost of the items he could lose and comparing the old system to the new one .
Looking at the current exchange rate with a sale on its not unreasonable to imagine it easily hitting the current cap easily down the road with more coming pressure on that in Mod2.
So when its evident that 500 is too low (not enough people selling zen/buying zen with $$ and too many buying with AD) raising that cap is hardly a conspiracy. As you say its market driven. The market cant drive it if its capped at 500 and sitting at that regularly.
the market has continually fluctuated just like any market. just because it's at the high end doesn't mean it's going to hit cap. but also considering that since cryptic/pwe can change whatever they want at their discretion, even if the cap was removed, it would be in response to the player-driven market... not for any other reason. if that includes people buying zen, who cares? it's not like the doom/gloomers are looking at the company financials... those arguments are driven more by flames/hate rather than constructive feedback and criticism.
Oh you don't understand. With the old system he lose 800k AD. With the new only 25k.
You are right "because its at the high end doesnt mean it going to hit the cap". If that is only what we were basing this off you would get 10 points for a good strawman. Given some facts 1) This fluctuating market has always trended upwards. 2) More pressure on exchange rate is coming in mod2 unless there is some major backtracking (how major or minor is yet unknown). 3) Prior to the latest sale the exchange was trending around 80% of the cap.
Its possible under the current live and proposed preview changes IMHO (you are entitled to disagree) this could easily hit the cap.
The decisions of Cryptic may sit just fine for you but probably best not to judge those who this doesnt sit so well with. Not everyone is as accepting.
Don't argue because of changing Coffer. That's another patchpart, but not the part of the refinement system! And all hysteric posts that only dependent that the refinement system is worse due the coffer change/market change due this are invalid.
Something new for the Thread:
Fey blessing
Upgrade Rp | Value |Grade | Chance
103.680 | 12960 |Lesser | 20% | R9
311.040 | 38880 |Normal | 10% | R10
- | 58320 |Greater
No hysteria involved at all - discussion only.
Wait dont discuss coffers here because they arent part of the refinement system..... What are those pretty shinies inside those coffers used for? All of those items are used for refinement. So as that thread is no longer available, this thread is as relevant as it gets.
I never said the new refinement system is worse due to coffer changes and zen exchange.
I said, in prior posts, costs are higher at lower ranks and lower at upper ranks, doesnt reduce the time by any practical time frame. Its worse because has more moving parts/more complex and more expensive for the people this entire system it was aimed at. Btw some people dont really care what the maths work out to be for R9's&10s. They care about the ranks immediately in front of them. In some cases it will cost them more for this. Slice that however you wish.
The new system does not seem to add appeal to previous people who did not use it save for the ability to use any enchantment type to refine with. I've left off removal costs as you say this is not part of the refinement process.
I've got just one question: If the market would be exclusively player driven and therefore can't be manipulated from outside, what do you think would happen if they'd make AD sales instead of ZEN sales? Like a discount for upgrading companions or at the Wondrous Bazaar or fee-free days at the AH.