And you can use perfect vorpal to refine training stone rank 5 ... but its stupid.
It's like:
If a tool last 1000 process of manufactoring and cost 1000 p and another tool last 2000 process and cost 5000 p, then i would use the tool for 5k instead twice of the 1k p right?(no other values matter) -.-***
a=b.. there is no diff in costs.. is only more complex
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kimonkaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
I just need it to be affordable enough to get to rank 7 ;-;. Going above is just insane because of the prices, regardless if whether the devs shaved off parts of the cost (Dat 20% chance of sucess). This seems like a viable system up until rank 7 though, let's hope the update makes the potency drop often enough.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
I just need it to be affordable enough to get to rank 7 ;-;. Going above is just insane because of the prices, regardless if whether the devs shaved off parts of the cost (Dat 20% chance of sucess). This seems like a viable system up until rank 7 though, let's hope the update makes the potency drop often enough.
It's actually the exact opposite: enchants past rank 7 will be much cheaper, but enchants before then will be much more expensive.
Fuse your 7s before module 2 hits.
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slambitMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 282Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
yeah that stupid stupid high price on marks has got to go, it doesnt help new players at all, imo marks shouldnt be required until rank 7 and it would take the place of that 2nd enchantment needed to upgrade to R8.
And? With the new system you need less wards and less enchantment. Secondary you can use cheap enchantment too.
Seriously, just go ahead and calculate everything you need to make 1 perfect enchant / rank 8 enchant and compare it with current values of these on live shard and then compare it with the enchants you would do from before the ninja nerf to shards.
Or don't do that, because if you scroll some pages behind, you would see that some people (including myself) already did that and proved it is more expensive to do with the new system. Basic mathematics and economics concepts.
Even if you are going to use the same type of shards to make the enchant you want, you will still pay more. Because people will buy these shards like crazy which would decrease the supply on AH which would in return increase the price of these shards ( vorpal for example would become 40 k each instead of 20k since you need less and they get sold out quick).
Let me put it simpler,
IT is more expensive to make 1 perfect / rank 8 with the current preview shard changes, than the current system we have on live shard. Want a mathematical proof? search forums or do the math yourself.
Side note: there is nothing called "cheap enchants" anymore. Because every single enchant got higher value now because they can be used for refining anything and any type of other enchant. Supply and demand.
Enchants like plague fire and tenebrous don't have shards, so you cant benefit from the "matching bonus" unless you use more lesser enchants to refine the lesser enchant you want to upgrade. which is more expensive than combining 4 lessers.
Please think before you generalize things you have no clue about.
I said it from the start, the new system was worse then the old system and provided almost no improvement. Honestly the only thing they've done the even begins to fix the small issues with the old system was making enchant removal cost gold and a pretty small amount at that.
but that begs the question, why didn't they just lower the original AD cost? Why change stuff that didn't need to be changed? If they really want to make the new a truly kick *** system then I say they should do the following,
Keep the gold cost for enchant removal.
Keep the ability to refine already socketed enchants.
Remove the "ranking up before refining" system.
Remove the need for additional reagents.
It isn't that hard to do. I dont know from where or whom the devs got their information about what was wrong with the old system but this new system is a joke. Some advice for the devs, if you tire keeps going flat, just change the tire. Don't rebuild the whole car.
Can anyone tell me an approximate drop rate of green and blue marks? I did Dread Ring dailies 6 times on my HR and I haven't got a single green mark from skill nodes, so...
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited November 2013
There are two things that annoy me about the new system:
1) The steep increase in cost when going from level 5 to level 6.
2) The need for a second rank 7/8/9 - I find that a bit clumsy - I would prefer a higher cost (in AD or lower-level enchants) instead.
What I do really like, however, is the gold gost for removal and the ability to refine enchants that have already been socketed.
The new system is more expensive for rank 7 azure/radiant/dark, rank 8 silvery/runestones, and certain weapon/armor enchants at normal/greater/perfect (ie bronzewood). In other words, new system screws 90% of the game population, while making it easier for the super rich to get rank 10's and perfects. Well done.
The new system is more expensive for rank 7 azure/radiant/dark, rank 8 silvery/runestones, and certain weapon/armor enchants at normal/greater/perfect (ie bronzewood). In other words, new system screws 90% of the game population, while making it easier for the super rich to get rank 10's and perfects. Well done.
Because needed second epik stone for 8 / 9 /10. They must remove that for refinment cheaper, but not increase the points of refinement given by sharp
Funny thing is, this change wasnt mentioned in patch notes and no official answer about it yet -_-.
It's what we refer to as a "Ninja Patch", that's when they change something and they don't think anybody is going to notice so they don't have an official statement on it ready, which means that (if they are watching this thread) they are trying to figure out what to say to try to make the players happy without actually fixing it.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
[...] they don't think anybody is going to notice so they don't have an official statement on it ready, which means that [...]
That's a big insult to the developers, IMHO. You really believe, that they are that stupid to not know, that every player on Preview is currently watching the new Refinement system very closely? And hoped that we wouldn't notice?
The reason they ninja patch things sometimes is probably because they dont want ALL players raging in the forums. With a ninja patch, only a handful will notice the change and complain.
The point-nerf on shards sucks big time. I dont really care anymore, I got depressed.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's a big insult to the developers, IMHO. You really believe, that they are that stupid to not know, that every player on Preview is currently watching the new Refinement system very closely? And hoped that we wouldn't notice?
Actually i think its quite the opposite. I feel it's insulting to the players for them to think we wouldn't notice and (rightfully IMHO) be pretty upset about it. Otherwise they would have put it in the patch notes or at least given a good reason for it.
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zanzy1975Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Wow! I need not 300 shards, but 1200 for perfect? Awesome!
I see in furture: 6/12 - price for shards=5-10k, price for CW=350k
Your reasoning is that the price will fall no economic justification, I can say that: if the demand will increase by 4 times!!!- respectively and the price will grow proportionately, may not be up to 10k (now in 2500 because agiotage) but it certainly 5k!
5000*1200=6mil AD! only shards!
Wait, now much more preferable to use native shards even vorpal!
150*20000=3mil Ad for vorpal
and 150*7000=1,05mil for soulforged for example... So that the system has become much easier and cheaper (sarcasm)
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wow! I need not 300 shards, but 1200 for perfect? Awesome!
I see in furture: 6/12 - price for shards=5-10k, price for CW=350k
Your reasoning is that the price will fall no economic justification, I can say that: if the demand will increase by 4 times!!!- respectively and the price will grow proportionately, may not be up to 10k (now in 2500 because agiotage) but it certainly 5k!
5000*1200=6mil AD! only shards!
Wait, now much more preferable to use native shards even vorpal!
150*20000=3mil Ad for vorpal
and 150*7000=1,05mil for soulforged for example... So that the system has become much easier and cheaper (sarcasm)
I dont really see shards ecoming that much more expensive because people will just use the cheapest L4 enchants instead.
Wow! I need not 300 shards, but 1200 for perfect? Awesome!
I see in furture: 6/12 - price for shards=5-10k, price for CW=350k
Your reasoning is that the price will fall no economic justification, I can say that: if the demand will increase by 4 times!!!- respectively and the price will grow proportionately, may not be up to 10k (now in 2500 because agiotage) but it certainly 5k!
5000*1200=6mil AD! only shards!
Wait, now much more preferable to use native shards even vorpal!
150*20000=3mil Ad for vorpal
and 150*7000=1,05mil for soulforged for example... So that the system has become much easier and cheaper (sarcasm)
All players who think new system will be more expensible than actually system ----> go to create/buy greater / perfect enchment NOW , you will sell it soon very well ....
Stop to post for nothing , and do what you think
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Actually i think its quite the opposite. I feel it's insulting to the players for them to think we wouldn't notice and (rightfully IMHO) be pretty upset about it. Otherwise they would have put it in the patch notes or at least given a good reason for it.
So, you do believe that developers are flawless and have a hive mind, where everybody knows what everyone else is doing? That also means, that NW is bugfree--as they are not able to fail.
So, you do believe that developers are flawless and have a hive mind, where everybody knows what everyone else is doing? That also means, that NW is bugfree--as they are not able to fail.
I'm not really sure how you drew this conclusion. only 1 person (head of development) has to say "This is what we're changing, Let's see where it goes.", I do believe however that there is an ulterior motive behind it. But at this point either way it's still just speculation as we have heard nothing from anyone "in the know" of whats happening with it all i have to go on is my intuition (which has been wrong before).
josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited November 2013
All signs point to cryptic looking to keep costs ~ consistent w/ current live-server costs.
Many have assumed that cryptic is aiming to lower costs, but their recent changes suggest otherwise.
Seems like they are:
Maintaining enhancement / enchantment costs
Giving us more options
Getting a higher % of the AD spend as revenue
Lowering removal costs
Lessening ease of mass coal farming
With the assumptions below, enhancement and enchantment costs are mostly neutral relative to live. Note that the assumptions below are likely over-estimates of the module-2 cost.
Also note that I'm referencing typical AH prices on live server, not cost-to-make. Perfects cost way more to make than to buy.
Important to set up your calculators based on the AD:RP ratio, as that is the most significant variable. Don't base it on a particular item's ratio (such as shards).
Assumption notes:
AD:RP ratio, and all MPs <= the wondrous bazaar. Thus, likely less than those values above unless wondrous bazaar rate changes
CW: Between 100k and 400k. Depends on impact of tarmalune bars. Also may take time for existing supply to die down. If items made w/ bound CWs are unbound, may be cheaper to buy lessers than fuse shards w/ CWs.
All signs point to cryptic looking to keep costs ~ consistent w/ current live-server costs.
Many have assumed that cryptic is aiming to lower costs, but their recent changes suggest otherwise.
Seems like they are:
Maintaining enhancement / enchantment costs
Giving us more options
Getting a higher % of the AD spend as revenue
Lowering removal costs
Lessening ease of mass coal farming
With the assumptions below, enhancement and enchantment costs are mostly neutral relative to live. Note that the assumptions below are likely over-estimates of the module-2 cost.
Also note that I'm referencing typical AH prices on live server, not cost-to-make. Perfects cost way more to make than to buy.
Important to set up your calculators based on the AD:RP ratio, as that is the most significant variable. Don't base it on a particular item's ratio (such as shards).
Assumption notes:
AD:RP ratio, and all MPs <= the wondrous bazaar. Thus, likely less than those values above unless wondrous bazaar rate changes
CW: Between 100k and 400k. Depends on impact of tarmalune bars. Also may take time for existing supply to die down. If items made w/ bound CWs are unbound, may be cheaper to buy lessers than fuse shards w/ CWs.
You missed 1 important factor, which is demand.
Vorpal shards are 34,000 on AH atm instead of 20,000 and they will go even more.
Same with rune stones / enchants. It is cheaper for me, with the module changes, to make a perfect enchant using random type of shards than with same type of shards. Prices increases on item that has most demand on it, and since everyone buying rune stones/enchants/shards now instead of buying shards only the prices of every item that gives RP is getting higher and higher.
Thank you for pointing out the missing patch note. I missed a period of hours of checkins while I was compiling the checkin list to make notes from. I will have this along with the other missing notes updated today.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited November 2013
Demand for high-cost shards could decrease, since only 32 shards are required to make a perfect. And shards drop in the world.
Demand is a tricky component to incorporate. Have to consider a lot of variables, including (but not limited to) if lessers can be purchased for less than a coal ward due to BoA CWs.
I don't think a full picture of the impact on demand can be estimated. Costs may decrease or increase. Without a significant argument one way or the other, I'm considering it a wash in aggregate.
The key component in my analysis is the AD:RP ratio. I kept it at a MAX, since people won't pay more on the AH for shards, etc than they can buy from the wondrous bazaar (6:1). Thus, the demand impact on this ratio is irrelevant in my calculation above.
Edit to add: Demand could decrease the module 2 costs in my analysis above, but not increase since my estimates are assuming max demand.
Comments
It's like:
If a tool last 1000 process of manufactoring and cost 1000 p and another tool last 2000 process and cost 5000 p, then i would use the tool for 5k instead twice of the 1k p right?(no other values matter) -.-***
That's the same thinking your pointed out right.
It's actually the exact opposite: enchants past rank 7 will be much cheaper, but enchants before then will be much more expensive.
Fuse your 7s before module 2 hits.
Seriously, just go ahead and calculate everything you need to make 1 perfect enchant / rank 8 enchant and compare it with current values of these on live shard and then compare it with the enchants you would do from before the ninja nerf to shards.
Or don't do that, because if you scroll some pages behind, you would see that some people (including myself) already did that and proved it is more expensive to do with the new system. Basic mathematics and economics concepts.
Even if you are going to use the same type of shards to make the enchant you want, you will still pay more. Because people will buy these shards like crazy which would decrease the supply on AH which would in return increase the price of these shards ( vorpal for example would become 40 k each instead of 20k since you need less and they get sold out quick).
Let me put it simpler,
IT is more expensive to make 1 perfect / rank 8 with the current preview shard changes, than the current system we have on live shard. Want a mathematical proof? search forums or do the math yourself.
Side note: there is nothing called "cheap enchants" anymore. Because every single enchant got higher value now because they can be used for refining anything and any type of other enchant. Supply and demand.
Enchants like plague fire and tenebrous don't have shards, so you cant benefit from the "matching bonus" unless you use more lesser enchants to refine the lesser enchant you want to upgrade. which is more expensive than combining 4 lessers.
Please think before you generalize things you have no clue about.
but that begs the question, why didn't they just lower the original AD cost? Why change stuff that didn't need to be changed? If they really want to make the new a truly kick *** system then I say they should do the following,
Keep the gold cost for enchant removal.
Keep the ability to refine already socketed enchants.
Remove the "ranking up before refining" system.
Remove the need for additional reagents.
It isn't that hard to do. I dont know from where or whom the devs got their information about what was wrong with the old system but this new system is a joke. Some advice for the devs, if you tire keeps going flat, just change the tire. Don't rebuild the whole car.
1) The steep increase in cost when going from level 5 to level 6.
2) The need for a second rank 7/8/9 - I find that a bit clumsy - I would prefer a higher cost (in AD or lower-level enchants) instead.
What I do really like, however, is the gold gost for removal and the ability to refine enchants that have already been socketed.
Because needed second epik stone for 8 / 9 /10. They must remove that for refinment cheaper, but not increase the points of refinement given by sharp
It's what we refer to as a "Ninja Patch", that's when they change something and they don't think anybody is going to notice so they don't have an official statement on it ready, which means that (if they are watching this thread) they are trying to figure out what to say to try to make the players happy without actually fixing it.
The point-nerf on shards sucks big time. I dont really care anymore, I got depressed.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Actually i think its quite the opposite. I feel it's insulting to the players for them to think we wouldn't notice and (rightfully IMHO) be pretty upset about it. Otherwise they would have put it in the patch notes or at least given a good reason for it.
I see in furture: 6/12 - price for shards=5-10k, price for CW=350k
Your reasoning is that the price will fall no economic justification, I can say that: if the demand will increase by 4 times!!!- respectively and the price will grow proportionately, may not be up to 10k (now in 2500 because agiotage) but it certainly 5k!
5000*1200=6mil AD! only shards!
Wait, now much more preferable to use native shards even vorpal!
150*20000=3mil Ad for vorpal
and 150*7000=1,05mil for soulforged for example...
So that the system has become much easier and cheaper (sarcasm)
I dont really see shards ecoming that much more expensive because people will just use the cheapest L4 enchants instead.
All players who think new system will be more expensible than actually system ----> go to create/buy greater / perfect enchment NOW , you will sell it soon very well ....
Stop to post for nothing , and do what you think
Rank 5 cost 1000 / 1200 AD ...
Calculate with this , and your conclusion will be different...
At one moment we can see thousand 99 stack of stone rank 5 and 20 stack of shard in AH
but Many players organises inflation, price grow continually because they buy all, but they must sell them at one moment ...
*facepalm*
I'm not really sure how you drew this conclusion. only 1 person (head of development) has to say "This is what we're changing, Let's see where it goes.", I do believe however that there is an ulterior motive behind it. But at this point either way it's still just speculation as we have heard nothing from anyone "in the know" of whats happening with it all i have to go on is my intuition (which has been wrong before).
Great Job Cryptic. Great Job.
Many have assumed that cryptic is aiming to lower costs, but their recent changes suggest otherwise.
Seems like they are:
With the assumptions below, enhancement and enchantment costs are mostly neutral relative to live. Note that the assumptions below are likely over-estimates of the module-2 cost.
Also note that I'm referencing typical AH prices on live server, not cost-to-make. Perfects cost way more to make than to buy.
AD:RP ratio: 6 (from wondrous bazaar [WB])
GMP: 100k [WB]
MP: 25k [WB]
LMP: 500 [WB]
MMP: 25 [WB]
CW: 250k
Shards: 5k
Important to set up your calculators based on the AD:RP ratio, as that is the most significant variable. Don't base it on a particular item's ratio (such as shards).
Assumption notes:
AD:RP ratio, and all MPs <= the wondrous bazaar. Thus, likely less than those values above unless wondrous bazaar rate changes
CW: Between 100k and 400k. Depends on impact of tarmalune bars. Also may take time for existing supply to die down. If items made w/ bound CWs are unbound, may be cheaper to buy lessers than fuse shards w/ CWs.
Iyon the Dark
You missed 1 important factor, which is demand.
Vorpal shards are 34,000 on AH atm instead of 20,000 and they will go even more.
Same with rune stones / enchants. It is cheaper for me, with the module changes, to make a perfect enchant using random type of shards than with same type of shards. Prices increases on item that has most demand on it, and since everyone buying rune stones/enchants/shards now instead of buying shards only the prices of every item that gives RP is getting higher and higher.
Demand is a tricky component to incorporate. Have to consider a lot of variables, including (but not limited to) if lessers can be purchased for less than a coal ward due to BoA CWs.
I don't think a full picture of the impact on demand can be estimated. Costs may decrease or increase. Without a significant argument one way or the other, I'm considering it a wash in aggregate.
The key component in my analysis is the AD:RP ratio. I kept it at a MAX, since people won't pay more on the AH for shards, etc than they can buy from the wondrous bazaar (6:1). Thus, the demand impact on this ratio is irrelevant in my calculation above.
Edit to add: Demand could decrease the module 2 costs in my analysis above, but not increase since my estimates are assuming max demand.
Iyon the Dark