However, the system of making weapon and armour enchants is changing as well. Though the wards are still needed, they will not be needed as often as before as I understand it. This will cause demand to decrease.
I'm not certain this is the case. In fact, I think a case could be made that we would have higher demand for high-end enchantments. With the new refining system, more players may consider the higher end rank 8-10 and greaters/perfects to be in reach, and start making them If the bulk of players just continually refine upward, an increasing number will get to the point where all they need is a ward for a significant upgrade. Before the refining system, I think many would not have tried at all. This would be a big increase in demand for wards, even disproportionate to the numerical reduction in the number of them needed to make greaters/perfects.
As such, all price speculation in this thread is wild guessing of the results of a change that may not even be happening. I suggest that you don't put much weight on it.
I could not agree more with this statement. The wild guessing and thought experiments we're doing might be helpful in the abstract, but until we get the devs to weigh in on whether this is even actually a possible change, and not just a simple mistake, I'm keeping my fears reigned in.
What many of you seem to forget is that the Green Wards also come from the same sources as blue wards and although we need less blue wards we still need maaaaany green ones to combine non-weap/non-armour chants if the supply of these bad boys goes down by 80% we will feel it... both in pricing and availability, so ye, not cool
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kaisvoresceMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited November 2013
This is getting a little rude, I realize there are likely elemental to this we don't see. Anything from Face saving to Dev/Game politics, to internal discussion about it (or nothing at all and this thread is being ignored) but I mean really they should at least say "Sorry, Bug" or "Totally Intend" or "There is more to this that we are not ready to unveil yet" perhaps a "Looking in to it" or even a "I see this thread exists" lol
Speculators, anticipating a supply shortage, are buying them up, either for resale at anticipated higher prices, or for their own use. This price spike is not indicative of conditions (either price, or supply) post-module launch. It's just a run on the market.
You hit the nail on the head. Nice to see someone with a decent grasp of the situation.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited November 2013
If this (very good) idea goes through unchanged from test server, here's some free info:
Coal ward prices will eventually be ~ 1000 x zen once existing supply is sold. That's effectively the same as the cost of fusing shards using pres wards (102 pres wards). Note that they won't go much above the price of 102 pres wards, because ppl would just use pres wards instead.
Net price to create armor and weapon enhancements (greater, perfect, etc) will be roughly unchanged relative to live server. It's important to consider the net cost of test vs. live rather than test-now vs test-earlier.
All together, including the coal ward price change, this move is good for the game and its players. Total cost to create enchants and enhancements remain relatively unchanged (stable market), botting goes down, flexibility goes up, gold goes up in value, and we all save in cost of removing enchants (cheaper, easier to upgrade).
Basic complaint in this thread stems from an assumption that the 'test-earlier' version was correct. Ignore that version. Consider this change on the whole. It's a net positive.
To those who want enchants cheaper: we all want free stuff. Welcome to the club. As a $0 casual player, I can say w/o hesitation that the current prices are not too high to obtain BiS enchants and enhancements. Takes skill, sure, but it should; we're rewarded for such skill in this game.
Iyon the Dark
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gipsylassMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 61
edited November 2013
As most people who have posted in this thread I really don't like this change at all.
Maybe I wouldn't mind that much if *at least* the new reward would be something useful - but Sharandar stuff is not useful for Level 60 chars who've already been through all stages of Sharandar - we have enough (and more than enough) of these rewards and don't need anymore.
Pretty please *with icecream on top* at least make the new rewards useful - but - preferrably keep the old ones..
Thanks.
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guaraguao34Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
People say "don't panic, it’s the preview shard", well the way I see it, it’s better to panic here. Look at this as a training exercise you want your people to panic in here and let you know what's going on and see what are the reactions, so when you go to the real thing (meaning live server), people don't do stupid things and decisions like, insult you guys (devs, moderators, and anyone related in any way to the company), leave the game because of the change (and this would turn the game into a p2w), talk <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about cryptic and all that, which will really lead to a damage cryptic's image and reputation. And any businesses with a bad image/reputation end up dead, not even the websites are visited if they can still have it up and running. I really, really, really x 150k, love this game being enjoying it so far even with the stupid *** decisions, I don't play based on what other say about the game, it’s my time not anyone else, and my call not anyone else, and I’m not a pay player (although I might buy some zen for some keys, maybe a pet too) so I don't support the removing wards from praying.
What I would love to see (and I’m going to get lots of hate from this, especially from the pay players or the ones making millions through wards) it’s a weekly quest that grants one coalescent ward and one preservation ward. Example, you can promote the DV daily/weekly (the one from lord Neveremeber, which some people stop doing even with the easy lots of ad you get) by giving a weekly quest from the cleric in the invoking area (don't remember the name) that say about doing something, cleansing or anything in DV after the killing last boss, should be enough. And to the moderators and people saying not to panic with all due respect, when under pressure and or stressful situation, some people just don’t listen (this case read) what its being told to them, especially when they have some sort of investment in w/e the place, situation or person, its being talked about, this case, they time in the game. To all of you instead of saying that, you should say “there is no need to be offensive towards anyone, leave a post saying why this should not go live, and wait for an answer, I can’t guarantee an immediate answer but they do know about the issue and the thread going on, try to be specific on the why shouldn’t go live, thanks” it will go a hell of a lot more better, and shows they are really interested in everyone’s opinion, just avoid the phrase, don't panic. Me, if the changes go live, then I’m 95% sure that I’ll be done with the game, can’t really support, a company that don’t keep their word, and you don’t need to be a pay player to support the game. Just my opinion, and try not to hate me much it’s just what I think, not that I care what people think of me
People say "don't panic, it’s the preview shard", well the way I see it, it’s better to panic here. Look at this as a training exercise you want your people to panic in here and let you know what's going on and see what are the reactions, so when you go to the real thing (meaning live server), people don't do stupid things and decisions like, insult you guys (devs, moderators, and anyone related in any way to the company), leave the game because of the change (and this would turn the game into a p2w), talk <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about cryptic and all that, which will really lead to a damage cryptic's image and reputation. And any businesses with a bad image/reputation end up dead, not even the websites are visited if they can still have it up and running. I really, really, really x 150k, love this game being enjoying it so far even with the stupid *** decisions, I don't play based on what other say about the game, it’s my time not anyone else, and my call not anyone else, and I’m not a pay player (although I might buy some zen for some keys, maybe a pet too) so I don't support the removing wards from praying.
What I would love to see (and I’m going to get lots of hate from this, especially from the pay players or the ones making millions through wards) it’s a weekly quest that grants one coalescent ward and one preservation ward. Example, you can promote the DV daily/weekly (the one from lord Neveremeber, which some people stop doing even with the easy lots of ad you get) by giving a weekly quest from the cleric in the invoking area (don't remember the name) that say about doing something, cleansing or anything in DV after the killing last boss, should be enough. And to the moderators and people saying not to panic with all due respect, when under pressure and or stressful situation, some people just don’t listen (this case read) what its being told to them, especially when they have some sort of investment in w/e the place, situation or person, its being talked about, this case, they time in the game. To all of you instead of saying that, you should say “there is no need to be offensive towards anyone, leave a post saying why this should not go live, and wait for an answer, I can’t guarantee an immediate answer but they do know about the issue and the thread going on, try to be specific on the why shouldn’t go live, thanks” it will go a hell of a lot more better, and shows they are really interested in everyone’s opinion, just avoid the phrase, don't panic. Me, if the changes go live, then I’m 95% sure that I’ll be done with the game, can’t really support, a company that don’t keep their word, and you don’t need to be a pay player to support the game. Just my opinion, and try not to hate me much it’s just what I think, not that I care what people think of me
I hate you. Na just kidding. It's funny this probably just is a place holder or bug considering there's no patch notes. However I bet that PWE look at this and change coeys because of all the discussion. And i'll make sure your held personally responsible guargao :P
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited November 2013
Don't panic. True or not, there's nothing to panic about. Module 2 will bring a net reduction in cost and increase in flexibility with regards to enchanting with or without this change.
This change would simply set the cost to make an enhancement equal to the cost to buy an enhancement on the live server. For a casual $0 player, the current live-server prices are reasonable. The rest of the improved enchantment system will result in decreased costs due (unslotting) and increased flexibility (refine options).
I disagree with that comment Josiahiyon. I've seen how much each enchant takes to feed to level them and the cost to refine each enchant on its own will keep the prices up. Changes in the coal wards will drive that even farther up.
That having been said, I think I agree with the idea of a weekly quest for coals/pres wards - but I do NOT agree with it being something like DV, epic or normal. That DD is horrible, and will remain horrible until they balance it (and others) out more.
Thing is, a weekly quest would make it even easier to get the coal wards, leaving it in the boxes keeps the lower drop rate for them while also keeping it in the game as a viable free option. I think the current system for coal wards (on live) is the best option, even if I dislike the low drop rate.
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MEH , another reason for me to not come back and play on expansion.Im one of those guys that made alts just for praying....
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guaraguao34Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
I don't like the dungeon either, not a single bit, but its a nice amount of ad when done with both dailies, not a bad encouragement, people can think, "ill get ad and, a coalescent ward and, a preservation ward". Hard part will be getting the group, wouldn't surprise me people asking for 20k gs (yes exaggerating) just to breeze through the place even if it is normal. And i didnt meant while Dungeon Delves event is active (i would choke a dev for making me suffer like that ) if that's what you meant, that would be a total waste of that event to do it, i did meant to do it in normal so its not that painful.
What worked on the "test" server hasn't always translated so well on the live server. What worked in "beta" didn't all work as intended on the "live" server. I do believe we should be patient for the official response. 1 month after the new refining and this possible change go live we will have pitchforks ready, but may not end up using them.
If it's an intended change, and they can give us good reasons with data (metrics im sure cryptic collects) for the change; then yes, I will welcome it. But until that response, it should be a concern. But let's all be patient.
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I disagree with that comment Josiahiyon. I've seen how much each enchant takes to feed to level them and the cost to refine each enchant on its own will keep the prices up. Changes in the coal wards will drive that even farther up.
That having been said, I think I agree with the idea of a weekly quest for coals/pres wards - but I do NOT agree with it being something like DV, epic or normal. That DD is horrible, and will remain horrible until they balance it (and others) out more.
Thing is, a weekly quest would make it even easier to get the coal wards, leaving it in the boxes keeps the lower drop rate for them while also keeping it in the game as a viable free option. I think the current system for coal wards (on live) is the best option, even if I dislike the low drop rate.
Perfects on the test server cost ~ 3.5M to make w/ cwards @ 100k. They "cost" at least 8.5M on the live server to make, but can usually be purchased somewhere between 6M and 9M. Bumping coal wards on the test server to 400k would increase test server cost to ~ 7.5M, right in line w/ the current cost to purchase 1 perfect on live.
This potential coal-ward change will impact enhancements costs, but not enchantment costs.
Don't panic. True or not, there's nothing to panic about. Module 2 will bring a net reduction in cost and increase in flexibility with regards to enchanting with or without this change.
At this point that is a guess at best. My guess is that things will turn out much differently. By that I mean that if they don't add in another way to get coal wards, then the Zen price will set the market. I'm certain a lot of others feel the same way. Its why people are buying them all up off the AH right now. And its why many are hoarding their wards and not putting them up for sale.
Currently players are injecting wards that they got for free into the AH. This drives the overall price down. Way down. With that gone the cheapest way to get a coal ward will be from trade bars. But that has a cost to it. And trade bars are used for other things as well.
This will only set the base cost of wards. They will go much higher. I mean, we were getting them for free before and yet they were selling for 90K at the lowest. How high do you think the cost will climb? The only thing that it will cap out at is the Zen price. And that's complicated by the exchange rate.
They can cap it though, if they want. If they put them in the AD store. They can set a max price. Smart players won't buy them from the lockbox openers higher than their cost in the store. But look at the prices of stuff in the store. Nothing there is reasonable. And I wouldn't expect this to be either.
This change would simply set the cost to make an enhancement equal to the cost to buy an enhancement on the live server. For a casual $0 player, the current live-server prices are reasonable. The rest of the improved enchantment system will result in decreased costs due (unslotting) and increased flexibility (refine options).
Unslotting isn't a decreased cost. For the most part no one actually used unslotting. Not unless they messed up. So very few (if anyone) one is actually saving money from them making it usable.
My cost is currently 0. I get my own wards. Haven't bought a ward in months. I even sold a few, though I don't do that often. (I was in a pinch for AD to buy something on sale.) Usually I use them myself. So no, this change doesn't set the future cost to the current. Not for me at least.
If they remove wards from invoking. It -will- be a hit to the way I play. I've said before though. Its a hit I can take if they move the wards somewhere else. (My preference is the foundry, but I also know that's unlikely.)
Here is another thing. They didn't/don't have to remove the wards at all. Even if they felt the need to lower the rate we get them. They could have added reagents (or something else) to the coffer. And split the chance of getting a ward with whatever they added.
And you're right. Now is not the time to panic. I'm not in a panic, but I don't like what I see. Before I heard about all this I was a happy and content player. Without going into details I will say that the possibility of this change combined with the way they are handling it has me looking at other games again. They can take from that what they will.
Perfects on the test server cost ~ 3.5M to make w/ cwards @ 100k. They "cost" at least 8.5M on the live server to make, but can usually be purchased somewhere between 6M and 9M. Bumping coal wards on the test server to 400k would increase test server cost to ~ 7.5M, right in line w/ the current cost to purchase 1 perfect on live.
This potential coal-ward change will impact enhancements costs, but not enchantment costs.
Are you looking at what it's costing to feed those enchants to level them as well?
My point is, you will want to use wards (c wards and pres wards) earlier than you currently do on live because of how much you're feeding into each enchant. It is much more costly to fail once this new system goes live than it currently is. I'd be curious once you look at the math on how much is needed to actually level each enchant via xp from other enchants and add in the coal wards + actual enchant costs if you're not currently doing that.
The idea to the new enhancement system was to make all of this more affordable/obtainable. I think removing the C. Wards from the weekly invoke reward would negate that idea. Overall it may actually drive AD -> Zen cost up, and drive the C. Wards you're looking at on AH up.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Probably missing something, but that should be close. 3.5M to make a perfect on test. This change would make it ~7.5M. No impact on enchantments (darks, azures, eldritch, etc).
Iyon the Dark
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Unslotting isn't a decreased cost. For the most part no one actually used unslotting. Not unless they messed up. So very few (if anyone) one is actually saving money from them making it usable.
The un-slotting change will save me 3M on day-1 of module 2. On 1 toon. When upgrading, your options are to unslot (pay hefty fee) or throw away the million+ AD enchant in current gear (irrational, can sell for more than fee). Upgrading under the new method doesn't require unslotting unless replacing. When you have to replace, you now pay a 2g fee rather than 300k.
I've played this game regularly since May and doubt I've earned 10 coal wards via prayer. Casual players aren't going to earn the 170 coal wards required to get perfects on each toon. Not through prayer. People either pay for wards, pay for enhancements, or use the prayer system in a way that's unintended (mass-pray for many free lvl-10 toons/accounts).
Even if the mass-prayer thing were legit, very few players taker advantage of this approach. Thus, most casual players purchase coal wards or the enhancements. Price > 0.
The un-slotting change will save me 3M on day-1 of module 2. On 1 toon. When upgrading, your options are to unslot (pay hefty fee) or throw away the million+ AD enchant in current gear (irrational, can sell for more than fee). Upgrading under the new method doesn't require unslotting unless replacing. When you have to replace, you now pay a 2g fee rather than 300k.
Its still not 'saving money' because people didn't use it. Yes, it will be used when it hits. But how many times did you unslot before? Probably never, like most everyone else. Not unless you were forced to by an accident or a change. Junk enchants were slotted until people had the money to get the ones they wanted. Then they just destroyed the old one. It is a nifty change, I agree. But you can't save money that wasn't being spent in the first place.
I've played this game regularly since May and doubt I've earned 10 coal wards via prayer. Casual players aren't going to earn the 170 coal wards required to get perfects on each toon. Not through prayer. People either pay for wards, pay for enhancements, or use the prayer system in a way that's unintended (mass-pray for many free lvl-10 toons/accounts).
Its pretty random. Some weeks I only get a couple. Some weeks I get 10. Usually its somewhere in the middle. But I only invoke with 31 characters. There are players with a lot more. Casual players didn't have all perfects in the first place. And they won't with the new system either. Not even if the AD cost to buy a perfect stays the same like you expect. Not sure why you keep bringing them up.
Supposedly this new system was suppose to make it so more people use it. The old system was never complicated though. It took a lot of bag space. And it was expensive. I fail to see how making the new system just as expensive will open it up to casual players.
And if people get hung up on the AD cost. Waiting till they have enough AD to buy the wards/reagents. Its not going to save bag space either.
Even if the mass-prayer thing were legit, very few players taker advantage of this approach. Thus, most casual players purchase coal wards or the enhancements. Price > 0.
Still don't see how people think it isn't legit. They bragged about the fact that you could have up to 50 on a single account. Players spent money buying characters slots for this. If they move coal wards away from it, so be it. But don't act like its a cheat.
Also I imagine it was happening more than you think. I know of at least one large guild that held meetings and suggesting everyone of their members get at least 20 character slots each for this (and leadership). They went through giving tips on how to earn the AD for it. How to use the exchange to get the Zen.
Anyway, I'm rambling. My point is that this is more common than you seem to imply. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the wards for sale in the AH originated from accounts with multiple invokers. That means eliminating them could have a bigger impact on their price in the AH than a lot of people think.
Halgarth's Legacy-NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Its still not 'saving money' because people didn't use it. Yes, it will be used when it hits. But how many times did you unslot before? Probably never, like most everyone else. Not unless you were forced to by an accident or a change. Junk enchants were slotted until people had the money to get the ones they wanted. Then they just destroyed the old one. It is a nifty change, I agree. But you can't save money that wasn't being spent in the first place.
When upgrading from a rank 8 to a rank 9, you're saying most people just throw out the in-slot rank 8? From a 9 to 10? Throwing out a 9 is millions of AD. Nay, most people pay the fee (~300k) to unslot and then upgrade.
I un-slot / re-slot whenever I upgrade, which is very often. Upgrading is a core game mechanic. Have probably spent several million on un-slotting fees.
When upgrading from a rank 8 to a rank 9, you're saying most people just throw out the in-slot rank 8? From a 9 to 10? Throwing out a 9 is millions of AD. Nay, most people pay the fee (~300k) to unslot and then upgrade.
No, most people left a 5 or 6 (maybe 7) in there until they had the rank 9. And I think most people never saw a rank 10.
No, most people left a 5 or 6 (maybe 7) in there until they had the rank 9. And I think most people never saw a rank 10.
I'd agree with this, cause it's exactly what I did. Screw putting in an 8 when I can wait a little longer and not pay double.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited November 2013
True, that strategy is somewhat common. However, the actual reference points vary. Some go with 5s until they can get 7s. Then 7s until 9s, or 6s-->8s, 8s--10s, etc. Also, and perhaps more importantly, there's the cost of un-slotting when trying a different build and/or different gear.
Gets very expensive, especially with multiple toons.
Probably missing something, but that should be close. 3.5M to make a perfect on test. This change would make it ~7.5M. No impact on enchantments (darks, azures, eldritch, etc).
The darks, azures etc are on the same xp model as those are. You won't be risking a R6, or R7 without pres or coal wards, same as higher, where as now you can gamble a little on R7 to R8 without a coal if you're lucky enough on drops.
That is also assuming the introduction of coal wards only coming off of the store and not from another source doesnt drive cost more.
Regardless, the point of this system was to make enchants easier to get for everyone - not drop cost by maybe 1mil, and then turn around and hike the price of the other enchants more as I suspect it will.
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zimmieroxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited November 2013
i know i dont have some 30 chars to try and collect coffers from but the 6 i do use are my only way to get colls. If that gets taken away honestly its a big in the jewels for me, and really going to be hard to want to keep up playing
"Am i supposed to kill this?" -flop....- " She did it!!!!!"
I only have 5 characters, but after a really bad spell of not getting any coals from the coffers I decided just to sell them. 5 sold coffers basically gets me a ward's worth of AD every week but if I don't need the wards then it's a nice sure income of AD.
That could go out the window if whatever they replace coffers with simply isn't as valuable, or even worse if it's BoP. Not to mention the pesky 400k+ AD coals.
If coffers are going away, then either an alternative way to get them free from the game or a big price decrease on the zen market are the only reasonable alternatives. Otherwise this new refining system that's supposed to make fusing easier and more cost effective will end up costing just as much if not maybe more. My first instinct isn't to pack up and leave the game, but if enough people leave that I'm finding myself alone in a deserted PE then I'd be inclined to.
And what about the cost of just a lesser? That'd go up to 400k-500k for just one and would make for a sizable barrier for people working their way up.
Just call me Rod. Member of Grievance! CW: Rodrant Turnbul TR: Rodran DC: Rodrat GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL Other GWF: Shieldrant HR: Bowdrant SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!) OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
What many of you seem to forget is that the Green Wards also come from the same sources as blue wards and although we need less blue wards we still need maaaaany green ones to combine non-weap/non-armour chants if the supply of these bad boys goes down by 80% we will feel it... both in pricing and availability, so ye, not cool
Don't forget about it please.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Comments
I'm not certain this is the case. In fact, I think a case could be made that we would have higher demand for high-end enchantments. With the new refining system, more players may consider the higher end rank 8-10 and greaters/perfects to be in reach, and start making them If the bulk of players just continually refine upward, an increasing number will get to the point where all they need is a ward for a significant upgrade. Before the refining system, I think many would not have tried at all. This would be a big increase in demand for wards, even disproportionate to the numerical reduction in the number of them needed to make greaters/perfects.
There's too much unknown here, imo.
I could not agree more with this statement. The wild guessing and thought experiments we're doing might be helpful in the abstract, but until we get the devs to weigh in on whether this is even actually a possible change, and not just a simple mistake, I'm keeping my fears reigned in.
You hit the nail on the head. Nice to see someone with a decent grasp of the situation.
Coal ward prices will eventually be ~ 1000 x zen once existing supply is sold. That's effectively the same as the cost of fusing shards using pres wards (102 pres wards). Note that they won't go much above the price of 102 pres wards, because ppl would just use pres wards instead.
Net price to create armor and weapon enhancements (greater, perfect, etc) will be roughly unchanged relative to live server. It's important to consider the net cost of test vs. live rather than test-now vs test-earlier.
All together, including the coal ward price change, this move is good for the game and its players. Total cost to create enchants and enhancements remain relatively unchanged (stable market), botting goes down, flexibility goes up, gold goes up in value, and we all save in cost of removing enchants (cheaper, easier to upgrade).
Basic complaint in this thread stems from an assumption that the 'test-earlier' version was correct. Ignore that version. Consider this change on the whole. It's a net positive.
To those who want enchants cheaper: we all want free stuff. Welcome to the club. As a $0 casual player, I can say w/o hesitation that the current prices are not too high to obtain BiS enchants and enhancements. Takes skill, sure, but it should; we're rewarded for such skill in this game.
Iyon the Dark
Maybe I wouldn't mind that much if *at least* the new reward would be something useful - but Sharandar stuff is not useful for Level 60 chars who've already been through all stages of Sharandar - we have enough (and more than enough) of these rewards and don't need anymore.
Pretty please *with icecream on top* at least make the new rewards useful - but - preferrably keep the old ones..
Thanks.
What I would love to see (and I’m going to get lots of hate from this, especially from the pay players or the ones making millions through wards) it’s a weekly quest that grants one coalescent ward and one preservation ward. Example, you can promote the DV daily/weekly (the one from lord Neveremeber, which some people stop doing even with the easy lots of ad you get) by giving a weekly quest from the cleric in the invoking area (don't remember the name) that say about doing something, cleansing or anything in DV after the killing last boss, should be enough. And to the moderators and people saying not to panic with all due respect, when under pressure and or stressful situation, some people just don’t listen (this case read) what its being told to them, especially when they have some sort of investment in w/e the place, situation or person, its being talked about, this case, they time in the game. To all of you instead of saying that, you should say “there is no need to be offensive towards anyone, leave a post saying why this should not go live, and wait for an answer, I can’t guarantee an immediate answer but they do know about the issue and the thread going on, try to be specific on the why shouldn’t go live, thanks” it will go a hell of a lot more better, and shows they are really interested in everyone’s opinion, just avoid the phrase, don't panic. Me, if the changes go live, then I’m 95% sure that I’ll be done with the game, can’t really support, a company that don’t keep their word, and you don’t need to be a pay player to support the game. Just my opinion, and try not to hate me much it’s just what I think, not that I care what people think of me
I hate you. Na just kidding. It's funny this probably just is a place holder or bug considering there's no patch notes. However I bet that PWE look at this and change coeys because of all the discussion. And i'll make sure your held personally responsible guargao :P
This change would simply set the cost to make an enhancement equal to the cost to buy an enhancement on the live server. For a casual $0 player, the current live-server prices are reasonable. The rest of the improved enchantment system will result in decreased costs due (unslotting) and increased flexibility (refine options).
Iyon the Dark
That having been said, I think I agree with the idea of a weekly quest for coals/pres wards - but I do NOT agree with it being something like DV, epic or normal. That DD is horrible, and will remain horrible until they balance it (and others) out more.
Thing is, a weekly quest would make it even easier to get the coal wards, leaving it in the boxes keeps the lower drop rate for them while also keeping it in the game as a viable free option. I think the current system for coal wards (on live) is the best option, even if I dislike the low drop rate.
pretty sure this is just a bug or something so please come back and join us!
If it's an intended change, and they can give us good reasons with data (metrics im sure cryptic collects) for the change; then yes, I will welcome it. But until that response, it should be a concern. But let's all be patient.
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Perfects on the test server cost ~ 3.5M to make w/ cwards @ 100k. They "cost" at least 8.5M on the live server to make, but can usually be purchased somewhere between 6M and 9M. Bumping coal wards on the test server to 400k would increase test server cost to ~ 7.5M, right in line w/ the current cost to purchase 1 perfect on live.
This potential coal-ward change will impact enhancements costs, but not enchantment costs.
Iyon the Dark
At this point that is a guess at best. My guess is that things will turn out much differently. By that I mean that if they don't add in another way to get coal wards, then the Zen price will set the market. I'm certain a lot of others feel the same way. Its why people are buying them all up off the AH right now. And its why many are hoarding their wards and not putting them up for sale.
Currently players are injecting wards that they got for free into the AH. This drives the overall price down. Way down. With that gone the cheapest way to get a coal ward will be from trade bars. But that has a cost to it. And trade bars are used for other things as well.
This will only set the base cost of wards. They will go much higher. I mean, we were getting them for free before and yet they were selling for 90K at the lowest. How high do you think the cost will climb? The only thing that it will cap out at is the Zen price. And that's complicated by the exchange rate.
They can cap it though, if they want. If they put them in the AD store. They can set a max price. Smart players won't buy them from the lockbox openers higher than their cost in the store. But look at the prices of stuff in the store. Nothing there is reasonable. And I wouldn't expect this to be either.
Unslotting isn't a decreased cost. For the most part no one actually used unslotting. Not unless they messed up. So very few (if anyone) one is actually saving money from them making it usable.
My cost is currently 0. I get my own wards. Haven't bought a ward in months. I even sold a few, though I don't do that often. (I was in a pinch for AD to buy something on sale.) Usually I use them myself. So no, this change doesn't set the future cost to the current. Not for me at least.
If they remove wards from invoking. It -will- be a hit to the way I play. I've said before though. Its a hit I can take if they move the wards somewhere else. (My preference is the foundry, but I also know that's unlikely.)
Here is another thing. They didn't/don't have to remove the wards at all. Even if they felt the need to lower the rate we get them. They could have added reagents (or something else) to the coffer. And split the chance of getting a ward with whatever they added.
And you're right. Now is not the time to panic. I'm not in a panic, but I don't like what I see. Before I heard about all this I was a happy and content player. Without going into details I will say that the possibility of this change combined with the way they are handling it has me looking at other games again. They can take from that what they will.
Are you looking at what it's costing to feed those enchants to level them as well?
My point is, you will want to use wards (c wards and pres wards) earlier than you currently do on live because of how much you're feeding into each enchant. It is much more costly to fail once this new system goes live than it currently is. I'd be curious once you look at the math on how much is needed to actually level each enchant via xp from other enchants and add in the coal wards + actual enchant costs if you're not currently doing that.
The idea to the new enhancement system was to make all of this more affordable/obtainable. I think removing the C. Wards from the weekly invoke reward would negate that idea. Overall it may actually drive AD -> Zen cost up, and drive the C. Wards you're looking at on AH up.
IIRC:
15 coal wards = 1.5M
7 Greater Marks of Potency = 700k
~500k Refine Points =~ 1M
32 shards =~ 300k
Probably missing something, but that should be close. 3.5M to make a perfect on test. This change would make it ~7.5M. No impact on enchantments (darks, azures, eldritch, etc).
Iyon the Dark
The un-slotting change will save me 3M on day-1 of module 2. On 1 toon. When upgrading, your options are to unslot (pay hefty fee) or throw away the million+ AD enchant in current gear (irrational, can sell for more than fee). Upgrading under the new method doesn't require unslotting unless replacing. When you have to replace, you now pay a 2g fee rather than 300k.
I've played this game regularly since May and doubt I've earned 10 coal wards via prayer. Casual players aren't going to earn the 170 coal wards required to get perfects on each toon. Not through prayer. People either pay for wards, pay for enhancements, or use the prayer system in a way that's unintended (mass-pray for many free lvl-10 toons/accounts).
Even if the mass-prayer thing were legit, very few players taker advantage of this approach. Thus, most casual players purchase coal wards or the enhancements. Price > 0.
Iyon the Dark
Its still not 'saving money' because people didn't use it. Yes, it will be used when it hits. But how many times did you unslot before? Probably never, like most everyone else. Not unless you were forced to by an accident or a change. Junk enchants were slotted until people had the money to get the ones they wanted. Then they just destroyed the old one. It is a nifty change, I agree. But you can't save money that wasn't being spent in the first place.
Its pretty random. Some weeks I only get a couple. Some weeks I get 10. Usually its somewhere in the middle. But I only invoke with 31 characters. There are players with a lot more. Casual players didn't have all perfects in the first place. And they won't with the new system either. Not even if the AD cost to buy a perfect stays the same like you expect. Not sure why you keep bringing them up.
Supposedly this new system was suppose to make it so more people use it. The old system was never complicated though. It took a lot of bag space. And it was expensive. I fail to see how making the new system just as expensive will open it up to casual players.
And if people get hung up on the AD cost. Waiting till they have enough AD to buy the wards/reagents. Its not going to save bag space either.
Still don't see how people think it isn't legit. They bragged about the fact that you could have up to 50 on a single account. Players spent money buying characters slots for this. If they move coal wards away from it, so be it. But don't act like its a cheat.
Also I imagine it was happening more than you think. I know of at least one large guild that held meetings and suggesting everyone of their members get at least 20 character slots each for this (and leadership). They went through giving tips on how to earn the AD for it. How to use the exchange to get the Zen.
Anyway, I'm rambling. My point is that this is more common than you seem to imply. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the wards for sale in the AH originated from accounts with multiple invokers. That means eliminating them could have a bigger impact on their price in the AH than a lot of people think.
When upgrading from a rank 8 to a rank 9, you're saying most people just throw out the in-slot rank 8? From a 9 to 10? Throwing out a 9 is millions of AD. Nay, most people pay the fee (~300k) to unslot and then upgrade.
I un-slot / re-slot whenever I upgrade, which is very often. Upgrading is a core game mechanic. Have probably spent several million on un-slotting fees.
Iyon the Dark
No, most people left a 5 or 6 (maybe 7) in there until they had the rank 9. And I think most people never saw a rank 10.
I'd agree with this, cause it's exactly what I did. Screw putting in an 8 when I can wait a little longer and not pay double.
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Gets very expensive, especially with multiple toons.
Iyon the Dark
The darks, azures etc are on the same xp model as those are. You won't be risking a R6, or R7 without pres or coal wards, same as higher, where as now you can gamble a little on R7 to R8 without a coal if you're lucky enough on drops.
That is also assuming the introduction of coal wards only coming off of the store and not from another source doesnt drive cost more.
Regardless, the point of this system was to make enchants easier to get for everyone - not drop cost by maybe 1mil, and then turn around and hike the price of the other enchants more as I suspect it will.
That could go out the window if whatever they replace coffers with simply isn't as valuable, or even worse if it's BoP. Not to mention the pesky 400k+ AD coals.
If coffers are going away, then either an alternative way to get them free from the game or a big price decrease on the zen market are the only reasonable alternatives. Otherwise this new refining system that's supposed to make fusing easier and more cost effective will end up costing just as much if not maybe more. My first instinct isn't to pack up and leave the game, but if enough people leave that I'm finding myself alone in a deserted PE then I'd be inclined to.
And what about the cost of just a lesser? That'd go up to 400k-500k for just one and would make for a sizable barrier for people working their way up.
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