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Coffer of Wondrous Augmentation?

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  • nwnghostnwnghost Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Do you really need Coalescent Wards in Module 2 given that you can use Preservation Wards?
  • dardovedardove Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    nwnghost wrote: »
    Do you really need Coalescent Wards in Module 2 given that you can use Preservation Wards?

    For weapon and armor enchantments, yes.
  • ranncoreranncore Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 2,508
    edited November 2013
    I wouldn't be opposed to this change if coalescent wards, like the new catalysts and reagents, drop from bosses and skill nodes.

    Right now, people get coal wards just for logging in - I can see why the developers want people to actually play to earn these instead.

    But to remove them from the economy entirely without resorting to the Zen store is a mistake.
  • ranncoreranncore Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 2,508
    edited November 2013
    nwnghost wrote: »
    Do you really need Coalescent Wards in Module 2 given that you can use Preservation Wards?

    Coalescent wards will still be needed to fuse weapon and armor enchantments in module 2 the same way they are needed now.
  • josiahiyonjosiahiyon Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    True or not, it's a good idea.
    • Keeps enhancement costs roughly the same as current pre-module 2.
    • Limits 'pray' farming w/ 100s of accounts
    • Makes it take less time to attain boons, and drops cost of relics
    • Puts pres wards and coal wards at roughly same price (102 pres wards for success, on average)
    • More money for developers = game lasts longer

    Meanwhile, we still get
    • Massive reduction in enchantment and enhancement removal costs
    • Ability to upgrade enchants/enhancements without removal
    • Ability to upgrade w/ other unrelated refine items

    Downside is the addition of catalysts. If this were true, one guess would be that they may want to eventually phase coal wards out and effectively replace them with the new catalysts.
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  • dndmasterdarkdndmasterdark Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I agree, make the coal wards from invoking bind to account or bind to character then.
  • rollingonitrollingonit Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I agree, make the coal wards from invoking bind to account or bind to character then.

    No quarrels to bind, if they believe the free invokes are messing with economy ingame. (not just they the company needs more money, that is not a good reason; that would lead investors/players/media to believe that the whole design from the groundup was unviable and is a short term money grab)

    But anyways Im holding off on anymore comments till I hear official statement.

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  • abell39abell39 Member Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I'm very annoyed because I don't actually use the few coal wards I get occasionally (just spam pres wards until it fuses) and I like selling them as that's the only way I have to make a large amount of AD (~100k) in a single pass (whereas on an exceptionally good day I might get 15k summed across all four invoking characters). I guess I understand the move now that I know all the ways the current system can be abused, but still...makes it a lot harder for a legit-but-broke player to make any AD.
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  • runebanerunebane Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    No news is NOT good news guys.

    Its difficult to believe no one was in office on a Monday that could let us know if this was intentional.
    Halgarth's Legacy - NWS-DSTGFZHFR
  • runebanerunebane Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    josiahiyon wrote: »
    • Limits 'pray' farming w/ 100s of accounts

    Also reduces the value of character slots. Not everyone was using different accounts. Some people paid to get max characters on single accounts.
    Halgarth's Legacy - NWS-DSTGFZHFR
  • mbllanes199mbllanes199 Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 429
    edited November 2013
    They should have not done this on the first day, removing the reward at this point is too late, the only thing i see here is to make the ward irrelevant to use in-game.
  • corpsemaker86corpsemaker86 Member Posts: 148 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    I keep hearing the same argument.. its seems like its not sinking in your heads

    If things remained the same and didn't change, coal wards will NOT be worth 100k. prob 20k-40k in module 2 unless they reduce the supply
  • runebanerunebane Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I keep hearing the same argument.. its seems like its not sinking in your heads

    If things remained the same and didn't change, coal wards will NOT be worth 100k. prob 20k-40k in module 2 unless they reduce the supply

    You keep using the same argument. And it is still invalid.

    Those arguing don't care if they were still worth 100K or not. The fact is we could get them on our own before. For no cost, not AD. And not Zen. If this change goes through, then every single coal ward will originate from Zen.
    Halgarth's Legacy - NWS-DSTGFZHFR
  • mbllanes199mbllanes199 Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 429
    edited November 2013
    I keep hearing the same argument.. its seems like its not sinking in your heads

    If things remained the same and didn't change, coal wards will NOT be worth 100k. prob 20k-40k in module 2 unless they reduce the supply

    .

    I don't know where you get your idea that the ward will be lower at MOdule 2, i studied economics and law of supply and demand states if there is low supply of goods the prices will go up. LOL. screw you on your idea of getting the ward thru bonus reward not everyone here are paying to play. It affects me becasue im buying my equipment from these people, i dont want to open 20-50 account per day just to pray, id rather buy it from them.

    LOL.
  • syka08syka08 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    runebane wrote: »
    You keep using the same argument. And it is still invalid.

    Those arguing don't care if they were still worth 100K or not. The fact is we could get them on our own before. For no cost, not AD. And not Zen. If this change goes through, then every single coal ward will originate from Zen.


    Exactly. I have three characters total, maybe 4 if I decide to pick up the hunter ranger. What few coal wards I've gotten in the past 160 days of play I've saved, not sold. I could care less about profiting from them or enchants. What my goal is, and I'd argue that of many others, is to create as much as one can for their own characters at as minimal an AD cost as possible. So far, even with the new system, that's a rock bottom price of 0 AD.

    If they replaced them with some other means of retrieving them for free, cool beans. If not, well, we'd cross that bridge if it came to it.

    As of now, we don't know where that bridge is or if it even exists. By Tymora's grace, maybe we'll have some insight soon.
    contents to be decided
  • runebanerunebane Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    syka08 wrote: »
    Exactly. I have three characters total, maybe 4 if I decide to pick up the hunter ranger. What few coal wards I've gotten in the past 160 days of play I've saved, not sold. I could care less about profiting from them or enchants. What my goal is, and I'd argue that of many others, is to create as much as one can for their own characters at as minimal an AD cost as possible. So far, even with the new system, that's a rock bottom price of 0 AD.
    I've made it no secret that I've got a bunch of characters I use for Leadership & Invoking. As far as Coal wards go, I've sold a few. But most of what I've gotten went into enchants for my main characters. Recently I've been saving them to see how the new enchant system turns out.

    syka08 wrote: »
    If they replaced them with some other means of retrieving them for free, cool beans. If not, well, we'd cross that bridge if it came to it.
    Agreed. If that's the case, maybe they could put a small chance to get them from the chest at the end of daily qualified foundry quests. Or perhaps a possible reward from a skirmish. Those areas could use some more attention, imo.

    syka08 wrote: »
    As of now, we don't know where that bridge is or if it even exists. By Tymora's grace, maybe we'll have some insight soon.
    Hopefully. The longer they wait the more it seems this might be complicated to explain on their end. You'd think that if it was a simple accident, they'd have someone who was on the boards today post to let us know.
    Halgarth's Legacy - NWS-DSTGFZHFR
  • icky1982icky1982 Member Posts: 64
    edited November 2013
    If we can pray :

    1 time / account / day
    and not
    1 time / toon / day

    solution will be found ...
  • runebanerunebane Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    icky1982 wrote: »
    If we can pray :

    1 time / account / day
    and not
    1 time / toon / day

    solution will be found ...

    That really wouldn't solve anything. Accounts are free. Instead of players with bunches of paid-for character slots, you'd have players with bunches of accounts.
    Halgarth's Legacy - NWS-DSTGFZHFR
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    if this is real i think is a step in the right direction and will improve the game quality. I am sorry for the guys with 50 chars, but that was an exploit and this doesnt take away those slots from you, it only takes away the exploit.

    What is bad with this change is the need of a Coalescent Ward to make a lesser version of an enchant so a lesser is going to cost way too much to be affordable, i suggest increase the odds to a 5-10% to fuse them so it can be done with Preservation Wards for lesser version and keep the 1% for normal and higher.

    As PvE content goes it can be done with rank6-7 (seem easier to make now) and with lesser-normal shard Enchants. You dont need greater or perfects for that and that is a fact.

    As for PvP the whole system is wrong, you only need to take a look at the builds made for pvp and what is happening in games. This will change nothing in that regard so has no impact. Even as it is now it requires a player six months to reach the gear level of top teams, which is terrible, but this is for other threads.

    The idea for them to be available in DD chests is really good as long as pve content is going to be fixed.
  • jacksoonjacksoon Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    For now we can only wait and see. Lose the chest, for someone, will make impossible make higher lvl enchant whit the 1% succesc
  • hinageshi79hinageshi79 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 246 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    removing that chest is a terribly wrong choice. It means no ward anymore for a lo of ppl that cant afford the cost of the waeds in zen market or the increased cost in AH... now there is a very active ah market that let economy to works and ad to move between players. For those that dont have much mony couse didnt become rich before caturday or with exploits the ward earn praying every day is extremely important!!
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited November 2013
    ortzhy wrote: »
    if this is real i think is a step in the right direction and will improve the game quality. I am sorry for the guys with 50 chars, but that was an exploit and this doesnt take away those slots from you, it only takes away the exploit.

    First of all, that is not an exploit. :)
    If you have 50 characters you are free to profit whatever way you wish from them as long as its within the terms of service and within the intended game mechanics.

    Exploiting is abusing a bug within the game to gain an unfair advantage.
    Invoking and claiming the rewards from doing so is an intended feature.

    That being said invoking was the only way to earn coalescent wards without paying for them.
    Without that this game takes a giant leap in the pay to win direction as the 1% chance of success weapon and armor enchantments have might as well be labelled "use a coalescent ward stupid."

    Fifteen Coalescent Wards are required to get a perfect enchantment with the new system which seemed to be a major improvement; That is still a ton of invoking to obtain that amount. Without the invoking the 15 coalescent wards might as well be renamed to $150 dollars per perfect enchantment.

    Unacceptable.

    Now if wards were to drop elsewhere such as doing a daily quest to limit abuse of the system that would be one thing but to simply take away the opportunity to earn free coalescent wards is something I don't think any person can defend. If they say they will give the opportunity elsewhere I would be a happy camper but outright removal can't be defended or justified as a good decision in any demented reality.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    First of all, that is not an exploit. :)
    If you have 50 characters you are free to profit whatever way you wish from them as long as its within the terms of service and within the intended game mechanics.

    Exploiting is abusing a bug within the game to gain an unfair advantage.
    Invoking and claiming the rewards from doing so is an intended feature.

    Sorry but i fail to see the difference between this and finishing CN in 20 min with 4 people. "Intended game mechanics" is really vague and to be honest i can even defend the 4 people thing since is just so more like in the books. Guess that will be something developers will answer directly or indirectly pretty soon, but as of now is just a matter of perception.
    Now if wards were to drop elsewhere such as doing a daily quest to limit abuse of the system that would be one thing but to simply take away the opportunity to earn free coalescent wards is something I don't think any person can defend. If they say they will give the opportunity elsewhere I would be a happy camper but outright removal can't be defended or justified as a good decision in any demented reality.

    I do agree, but i do wish alot more then that, i wish they were removed from pvp at least the higher versions and i wish the lesser to be on preservation wards. That coffer can be put on a 1 week timer for the first DD(t1-t2) chest u open on every character, i think is alot better, but first of all they need to remove them from the prayer system.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited November 2013
    If you are running through CN in 20 minutes then there's an extremely good chance you are outside of the intended play zone and that would be a bug/glitch/exploiting.

    If you have to do a double backflip through a flaming hoop to go somewhere and it makes life easier by bypassing mobs or bosses then chances are it's not intended. Whether they will punish for that is another matter, though.

    However there is absolutely nothing in the Terms of Service, nothing, which says you are not supposed to be able to log into your characters, invoke and claim those rewards. Again, nothing.

    I'm not supposed to say what is or isn't punishable but this one is just so obvious there's literally no chance of me being wrong. If they didn't want you to be able to use those wards on other characters then they would have been BoP. If the items were BoP and you managed to transfer them to another character then you would be exploiting but as it stands there is nothing exploitative about invoking on multiple characters.


    The way to determine if something is an exploit is to read the Terms of Service and cross examine the action you are taking and apply deductive reasoning and best judgement. If you can find anything which implies gaining items via daily tasks can't be relocated let me know but I can save you the effort and say there's not.

    In a nutshell, if the items weren't intended to be transferred they would be Bind on Pickup.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    In a nutshell, if the items weren't intended to be transferred they would be Bind on Pickup.

    The way i see it is like this: First they came with the idea lest use this sistem with 85 wards, nice and all but when it came to practice they saw that was impossible for anyone to make them so they;ve increased the drop chances in the coffers and let players build as many toons to supply the demand, they even lower the cost in the bars to half of what they should be, same reason.

    Now they came up with a new system that somewhat solves this issue but adds a new problem... there will be way too many Cwards available, close to 5 times as more and that needs to be solve.
    I can tell you this: i sell rank 7 enchantments for a profit, but for that i need to buy Preservation Wards. That should be the case with Cwards as well, make them available in such a way that someone cant make a profit from this if they dont buy them from z-shop.

    I dont think that players should be punished for this, was more of a compromise and from what i'm reading it ends now. Does bending the law sounds better? i dont really care about semantics, in my opinion a player shouldn't be able to gain high lvl items as a lvl 11.
  • kaylos29kaylos29 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    ortzhy wrote: »
    The way i see it is like this: First they came with the idea lest use this sistem with 85 wards, nice and all but when it came to practice they saw that was impossible for anyone to make them so they;ve increased the drop chances in the coffers and let players build as many toons to supply the demand, they even lower the cost in the bars to half of what they should be, same reason.

    Now they came up with a new system that somewhat solves this issue but adds a new problem... there will be way too many Cwards available, close to 5 times as more and that needs to be solve.
    I can tell you this: i sell rank 7 enchantments for a profit, but for that i need to buy Preservation Wards. That should be the case with Cwards as well, make them available in such a way that someone cant make a profit from this if they dont buy them from z-shop.

    I dont think that players should be punished for this, was more of a compromise and from what i'm reading it ends now. Does bending the law sounds better? i dont really care about semantics, in my opinion a player shouldn't be able to gain high lvl items as a lvl 11.

    Only thing I am getting from your argument is you are afraid of the economic impact of coalescents suddenly not being as valuable. I think you may be right. Unlike you, I think it could be the best thing that ever happened in this game. Enchants are crazy expensive and the cost needs to be driven down. I'd actually be more inclined to spend money instead of gaming the system if the costs weren't so high.

    At 40,000 AD, a coalescent would be the equivalent of $1. I wouldn't spend $150 for a perfect enchant, but I would be inclined to spend a few bucks here and there.

    Also people who have multiple character accounts probably spent money on them. Can you get them without spending money? Yes. But it takes a good bit of time. If you have 50 characters, you probably spend $120 for the extra 48 slots.
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  • baylen76baylen76 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Additionally, the current system has a beneficial side effect: Since Coal wards drop nowhere else this side of the paywall, you basically end up with some high level characters from invoking xp. Means there's no hurdle to trying out a new class right from L60 onwards. I find this quite elegant from a design perspective.

    I'm pretty much "forever GF" (though they sure make us suffer, what's up with the 0 arpen, 0 recovery, 0 power sponge sets in both Shandahar and Dread Ring? It's lack of damage why we'll be replaced by GWFs), but since the ward-incentivised invoking provided me with some high level chars, I ended up playing a cleric - initial thought: gotta play other classes to truly understand them.

    Turns out I'm having a blast as a cleric, and old dungeons show new facets when viewed from a different perspective. So, first-hand I can say this mechanic is effectively keeping players/customers around longer, and customer retention should be a good thing in sales department, too.

    Removing the wards from the coffers means dampening this side effect, as having alts for leadership/AD-farming alone is a) not necessary (can just farm instead on the main), b) tedious (clicky clicky, time management) and c) simply less profitable than before, so fewer people will bother.



    Ultimately, I will be able to deal with a change; if, if if if coal wards get shifted somewhere else /this/ side of the paywall. However, it's illusionary to think they won't be farmed there, too. If then, as a response, the replacement system would end up being geared more towards people with time, and not (as it is now) cater to casual people with jobs and money to spend, too, I would consider it a part-fail at best. A mechanic should only be replaced with a /better/ one, else left alone.

    The powers that Be need keep in mind that player bases are fickle. I've left UO, I've left AC, I've left WoW, I've left DDO, I've left RoM, I've left a couple more. Retrospectively, it has always been due to misbalancing and misdesign. Too much stuff piles up, people leave.
  • hinageshi79hinageshi79 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 246 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    i dont think there is sonething wrong in having more than one toon. ppl farm xp, gold, enchats, runestones, ad, companions and wards. which is the problem? i dont like to go around the world farming profession nodes, but dont complain against who do it. This game offers many opportunities and ppl can make choices. Dont complain against ppl who play this game in a different way as you.

    I used to spend my ad not to buy zen abd wards but for examples i got an invetory bag. Sometimes i neefed an extra ward and boght it in ah. I noticed that wards ah market is dinamic and live and this is a good thing for economy. remiving coffer of w a will bring a lot of negative effects:

    - many ppl like me will remain completely without them
    - market will die (prices will go up)
    - any good purpose to introduce refinenent system will be vanished couse you said you want make easier to upgrade enchants but remove wards so it will be much more difficult (impossible for me)
    - you admit that this is a pay to win

    P.s.
    to them who suggested that wards could drop... i really disagree. Drop where? from mobs! it means i shoul roll for wards? no, i dont want. It a would means that droppl rate is x/5 (5players)... They drop from profession nodes? I stopped to loot nodes 3 monts ago because for me it is noy funny. I donwant to be forced to go around the world searcing profession nodes brcause of wards. maybe many of you think it is funny, but for me no. Also it will make happy who use profession node bot.

    For me coff of wa is the best solution and dont need to be changed.
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