You are correct. No one knows, outside of PWE, the ratio of supply injection from invoking vs keys/trade bars. Without this information neither those in support or against whats on preview can determine the outcome. Everyone is free to speculate though. Bugged in its current preview state or not.
Player perception tends to disregard economics however.
If they were 200k AD instead of ~110k,
but you needed significantly fewer of them to make your enchant, the new system would be fair.
This also solves the problem of too much supply and far too cheap perfect enchants.
This is such a great system and works perfectly. I'm very happy with this change.
I paid big AD to have a competitive advantage. This new system combined with this new change makes it so perfect enchants will be more accessible yet expensive enough that not every single lvl 60 toon has them.
People need to embrace this change because it wonderful. I bet the angry posters are the ones hoping to upgrade their weapon and armor slots for dirt cheap in module 2
I guess people are saying its possibly a bug, mistake, or even just another option to choose from. I will wait and see
On the other hand, players ARE trading off wards for keys and other stuff and not even using them on their account. Who's the people that is really greedy? IMO the players are way more greedy. Hate to say it but, even in a free game I see players at level 60 with no gems in their gear just to get the extra diamonds. IMO hate me if you like, but it is a proper move for a company seeking to make a profit, and you cannot tell me you would do any different.
Some of these players (like the one above) have multiple accounts / 15+ characters only to invoke for extra goods, which then turn into diamond profit for the player only to squeeze out an extra freebie from a already free game. Sad. Players need to start coughing up some fee some time out of appreciation for the game at least.
IMO smart move... Why are only the people that have 10 accounts get to have the bonus while legit paying customers suffer and get crapped on by having to tow the line of freebee scrubs through dungeons and such. Another reason why votekick will be nice, to kick the cheap cockroaches when they show up with no gems in their gear. Why should players have to work harder because they are cheap?
and the people who are saying they are gonna quit, Can I have your stuff? nm...We already know the answer to that...I mean if your that cheap why give away anything or do anything for anyone right?
This is probably a direct result of people botting the game as well...just remember everytime you do not report a scrub cheater we all pay for it in the long run.
14k GWF all rank 7, lesser weapon; 12k TR all rank 7,6, lesser weapon and armor + bunch of characters 10-11k gs with all rank 5,6. 12 chars out of 15 are 60lvl. What's your point? You angry because you DON'T have them and other people DO have? It's called jealousy.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
14k GWF all rank 7, lesser weapon; 12k TR all rank 7,6, lesser weapon and armor + bunch of characters 10-11k gs with all rank 5,6. 12 chars out of 15 are 60lvl. What's your point? You angry because you DON'T have them and other people DO have? It's called jealousy.
Jealous of what? Why would I be jealous of people that have 30 characters just to invoke for diamonds and invoke for coal wards? LOL... very funny...and yet sad.
But again. CHEAP. I'm not the one who cannot afford a few bucks here and there and need to do that to buy my services ingame.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
Are you ****ing kidding me , wow , this is just ........ pay to compete/win .......
Exactly who comes up with these changes? these are the kind of changes that will kill this game off , coal wards are a necessity to level up enchantments and giving the cash players a cartel over their supply into the game is a stupid stupid move to make , you dev guys seriously need to rethink this idiotic decision .
Edit - Also a question , how could that be considered treasure? you seriously think people will bother to log on daily to pray if you take away their only means of getting free coal wards and replace them with Feywild sparks and gold crecents? better get ready for a HUGE drop in daily logins if this stupidity makes it to live.....
No, they'll probably get the professions pack every 5 days instead.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited November 2013
How about changing the 7 day Celestial with a coffer of Wondrous 'Mount Training'?
Yea, just stay calm guys, the next marks are going to be the replacement for the coalescent wards and such... no need to panic.. lol
How is this gonna be a replacement? Cryptic fooled people too well with introduction of the new system. Now community thinks that all they need are catalysts aka reagents. They are just an addition, you still need the same amount of preservation/coalescent wards as before because chances remain the same. You need BOTH a ward and a mark to upgrade your enchantment. We still don't know how often those blue and purple marks will drop, so I bet people will just buy them at the wondrous bazaar store in most of the cases.
Mounts, fashion, pets, dyes, services - all this must be sold for real money in any f2p game, but making essential game moment worth cash.... It's just like if they add a key costs 1000 zen that would open T2 chest lol.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Jealous of what? Why would I be jealous of people that have 30 characters just to invoke for diamonds and invoke for coal wards? LOL... very funny...and yet sad.
But again. CHEAP. I'm not the one who cannot afford a few bucks here and there and need to do that to buy my services ingame.
Did you even read what I wrote? I PLAYED those characters, I leveled them to 60, got the gear and put the enchants. I play since open beta, and there were absolutely nothing to do except leveling new characters. As I see your joining date, I can assume you just haven't got a single coalescent ward for free, you're lazy or not that smart or both to get things for free and actually pay only when you really need a thing. Got rich parents can buy you stuff in MMO game? Good, but no need to brag about it.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Wooooowwww! (Sarcasm) If they actually make coal wards and preservation wards pay only, through Zen store and Trade bar merchant (Which can be only obtained by keys, which is also Zen Store). Than I'll be looking for another MMO to play.
This will make the already ridiculous prices for every enchantment rise to extreme levels. So much for the new refinment system.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
No, they'll probably get the professions pack every 5 days instead.
You mean the profession pack that gives you some worthless common crafting mats and residiuum? yeah thats a real incentive to log on if ever I saw one , sheesh lmfao
No one knows, outside of PWE, the ratio of supply injection from invoking vs keys/trade bars. .
The point is that with this change coalescent wards will only enter the economy through REAL MONEY. There will be no way, in game, to earn them. You can buy them from another player, but at some point, every single enchantment in the game depends on someone spending real money - and I assure you this change will drive their price up, making perfect enchantments even less accessible for most players - which is the exact opposite of what the new system is designed to do.
The point is that with this change coalescent wards will only enter the economy through REAL MONEY. There will be no way, in game, to earn them. You can buy them from another player, but at some point, every single enchantment in the game depends on someone spending real money - and I assure you this change will drive their price up, making perfect enchantments even less accessible for most players - which is the exact opposite of what the new system is designed to do.
That's not a good thing.
We have the zen exchange for buying zen with AD. If u can make ad you;ll make zen. I also think zen price will get to 500 ad per 1 zen. Perfect will have the same price more or less, but lesser just got 4 times more expensive.
Please. You won't earn any ZEN through AD if people stop buy former.
This favors zen buyers, problem is that there wont be any free players. As i said in another thread, the difference is already huge and makes pvp unplayable. If they will make a pvp system similar to GW2 maybe, then u'll only have this for pve and noone will have what to complain about. Imo pve should be easier for those who pay while pvp should be equal.
You guys don't know the ratio of coal wards introduced from keys compared to invoking.
No. I don't know the exact ratio. What I do know is that this week I got 10 coal wards from 31 characters. I know those were pretty much free. I log in those characters everyday to run leadership tasks. The invoke is one extra button-click. I also know that under the supposed system are telling me to "embrace" - I would have had none instead.
The exchange rate puts coal wards at worth about 375,000 AD. The fact that they can be gotten from invoking is what drives their price down. You remove that and they will naturally gravitate towards the exchange rate value. You're kidding yourself if you honestly think the cost will only go up a little.
Halgarth's Legacy-NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2013
Coalescent wards shouldn't be in the Zen store to begin with.
The saving grace was the Coffer of Wondrous Augmentation.
Do not remove that coffer. You stated the game would not be pay to win. Hold up to that promise.
baylen76Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
I'd be severely irked if this hit live. People have already paid Cryptic/PWI by buying character slots, motivated by exactly those coffers. It's an extremely dangerous move as nerfing paid stuff will make people think twice before purchasing stuff for real cash again. Likewise (an advance warning) it will be extremely dangerous to alter companion bonuses once live after people paid for the companions. Effectively, nerfing paid stuff never sits well with your customers and burns company reputation really fast.
The current ward system on live is slow enough to be self-regulating as with more than a handful of alts, this game turns into Alt Management Online - which isn't really fun. And even those to whom it is paid zen for their slots. I run 7 char slots and the best enchantment after months of play I've made is a single normal flaming for the main char. I hardly see a balance issue here.
If you really must go through with this, shift free Coal wards into Dread Ring coffers instead, which should curb any excessive farming cases there might be.
your not considering the fact that you need like what 15 now compared to something like 85 before to make a perfect. Almost 6 times less
You guys can talk about exchange rates all you want, at the end of the day trade bars come as extra bonuses to keys. Enough will be available so that ultimately prices will be controlled entirely by supply and demand. Unless this change means the amount of wards available goes down by 2,000% ... there is no way that the price of wards goes up to 400k
Also, we don't know if the devs plan to introduce Blue Wards in another way. perhaps a small chance from epic dungeon bosses. My guess is they have a chance to drop in coffers. We simply don't know
You guys still make money. As it stands, Fey Blessing enchants are worth a pretty penny. You need 60 sparks to craft, this allows for an extra 30 every week. Value may change in module 2 but for now they are valueable
Could you imagine if they didn't change the system and left it as is? We will need 5x fewer coal wards, yet supply stays the same....
The price of wards hit rock bottom. The wards wont be as profitable --- maybe worth 20-40k with the overwhelming supply
Could you imagine needing only 30k x 15 = 450k in coal wards to make a perfect enchantment? (plz correct me if more than 15 wards are needed) Yes I know there are other requirements in the new system, but they are not all that expensive
Do you guys really think its reasonable
They have to reduce the supply. You KNOW they have to change this. Instead of saying to keep it the same way (not going to happen) suggest a new way to do things
You guys can talk about exchange rates all you want, at the end of the day trade bars come as extra bonuses to keys. Enough will be available so that ultimately prices will be controlled entirely by supply and demand. Unless this change means the amount of wards available goes down by 2,000% ... there is no way that the price of wards goes up to 400k
You are seriously underestimating the amount of available coal wards on the AH that came from invoking. Pretty sure it would be almost all of them.
While I wouldn't even begin to guess at an actual number, I bet your crazy 2000% drop in availability isn't as off as you think it is.
Halgarth's Legacy-NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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baylen76Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
The current 85 coal wards were an overly excessive time-gate mechanic – with an estimated drop rate of 25% it would take a single character about 340 weeks of straight invoking – that’s six and a half years. Hence toning it down to 15 was only reasonable, we’re still looking at more than a year of straight praying needed, and you didn’t even take the additional marks needed into account.
I can see, however, how such a change would appeal to regular lockbox openers as it eliminates 100% of the competetive market supply of Coal wards. Why else would someone reason in favor of the removal of free stuff?
:O what a useless reward from now 7 days log in ....there it goes price ad to 500 and none will sell there instead we will need to buy it on ah to give few milinos ad for 1 ward after few weeks this come to live
I've read through all the arguments, but still feel that, if this is implemented, I won't be logging in much, or saving for any more zen items. Of what use are sparks and crescents to a low lvl toon? I log in every day to invoke on my current 7 toons, and my brothers 3. In the last month, there's been, maybe, 3 coal wards dropped from coffers. Even the low chance at coal wards keeps me logging in, and playing. I've got 4 lvl 60's I need to finish outfitting, soon to be 5. The new system may simplify things in some ways, but will also complicate it. I don't have the time to farm diamonds or dungeons, so everything I get takes a while. Please don't take our chance at a coal ward in the coffer.
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Could we get an official response on this asap...if this goes live my guild is off...so, devs, if you please let us know what is in your mind, to help us decide if your product is worth our time and money. Thank you.
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Could we get an official response on this asap...if this goes live my guild is off...so, devs, if you please let us know what is in your mind, to help us decide if your product is worth our time and money. Thank you.
Give it a couple hours at least. No one is going to be at the Cryptic office yet.
Comments
Player perception tends to disregard economics however.
but you needed significantly fewer of them to make your enchant, the new system would be fair.
This also solves the problem of too much supply and far too cheap perfect enchants.
This is such a great system and works perfectly. I'm very happy with this change.
I paid big AD to have a competitive advantage. This new system combined with this new change makes it so perfect enchants will be more accessible yet expensive enough that not every single lvl 60 toon has them.
People need to embrace this change because it wonderful. I bet the angry posters are the ones hoping to upgrade their weapon and armor slots for dirt cheap in module 2
I guess people are saying its possibly a bug, mistake, or even just another option to choose from. I will wait and see
14k GWF all rank 7, lesser weapon; 12k TR all rank 7,6, lesser weapon and armor + bunch of characters 10-11k gs with all rank 5,6. 12 chars out of 15 are 60lvl. What's your point? You angry because you DON'T have them and other people DO have? It's called jealousy.
Jealous of what? Why would I be jealous of people that have 30 characters just to invoke for diamonds and invoke for coal wards? LOL... very funny...and yet sad.
But again. CHEAP. I'm not the one who cannot afford a few bucks here and there and need to do that to buy my services ingame.
No, they'll probably get the professions pack every 5 days instead.
How is this gonna be a replacement? Cryptic fooled people too well with introduction of the new system. Now community thinks that all they need are catalysts aka reagents. They are just an addition, you still need the same amount of preservation/coalescent wards as before because chances remain the same. You need BOTH a ward and a mark to upgrade your enchantment. We still don't know how often those blue and purple marks will drop, so I bet people will just buy them at the wondrous bazaar store in most of the cases.
Mounts, fashion, pets, dyes, services - all this must be sold for real money in any f2p game, but making essential game moment worth cash.... It's just like if they add a key costs 1000 zen that would open T2 chest lol.
Did you even read what I wrote? I PLAYED those characters, I leveled them to 60, got the gear and put the enchants. I play since open beta, and there were absolutely nothing to do except leveling new characters. As I see your joining date, I can assume you just haven't got a single coalescent ward for free, you're lazy or not that smart or both to get things for free and actually pay only when you really need a thing. Got rich parents can buy you stuff in MMO game? Good, but no need to brag about it.
This will make the already ridiculous prices for every enchantment rise to extreme levels. So much for the new refinment system.
ROFL, well that'd shut me up about it.
You mean the profession pack that gives you some worthless common crafting mats and residiuum? yeah thats a real incentive to log on if ever I saw one , sheesh lmfao
The point is that with this change coalescent wards will only enter the economy through REAL MONEY. There will be no way, in game, to earn them. You can buy them from another player, but at some point, every single enchantment in the game depends on someone spending real money - and I assure you this change will drive their price up, making perfect enchantments even less accessible for most players - which is the exact opposite of what the new system is designed to do.
That's not a good thing.
We have the zen exchange for buying zen with AD. If u can make ad you;ll make zen. I also think zen price will get to 500 ad per 1 zen. Perfect will have the same price more or less, but lesser just got 4 times more expensive.
Please. You won't earn any ZEN through AD if people stop buy former.
This favors zen buyers, problem is that there wont be any free players. As i said in another thread, the difference is already huge and makes pvp unplayable. If they will make a pvp system similar to GW2 maybe, then u'll only have this for pve and noone will have what to complain about. Imo pve should be easier for those who pay while pvp should be equal.
No. I don't know the exact ratio. What I do know is that this week I got 10 coal wards from 31 characters. I know those were pretty much free. I log in those characters everyday to run leadership tasks. The invoke is one extra button-click. I also know that under the supposed system are telling me to "embrace" - I would have had none instead.
The exchange rate puts coal wards at worth about 375,000 AD. The fact that they can be gotten from invoking is what drives their price down. You remove that and they will naturally gravitate towards the exchange rate value. You're kidding yourself if you honestly think the cost will only go up a little.
The saving grace was the Coffer of Wondrous Augmentation.
Do not remove that coffer. You stated the game would not be pay to win. Hold up to that promise.
The current ward system on live is slow enough to be self-regulating as with more than a handful of alts, this game turns into Alt Management Online - which isn't really fun. And even those to whom it is paid zen for their slots. I run 7 char slots and the best enchantment after months of play I've made is a single normal flaming for the main char. I hardly see a balance issue here.
If you really must go through with this, shift free Coal wards into Dread Ring coffers instead, which should curb any excessive farming cases there might be.
You guys can talk about exchange rates all you want, at the end of the day trade bars come as extra bonuses to keys. Enough will be available so that ultimately prices will be controlled entirely by supply and demand. Unless this change means the amount of wards available goes down by 2,000% ... there is no way that the price of wards goes up to 400k
Also, we don't know if the devs plan to introduce Blue Wards in another way. perhaps a small chance from epic dungeon bosses. My guess is they have a chance to drop in coffers. We simply don't know
Could you imagine if they didn't change the system and left it as is? We will need 5x fewer coal wards, yet supply stays the same....
The price of wards hit rock bottom. The wards wont be as profitable --- maybe worth 20-40k with the overwhelming supply
Could you imagine needing only 30k x 15 = 450k in coal wards to make a perfect enchantment? (plz correct me if more than 15 wards are needed) Yes I know there are other requirements in the new system, but they are not all that expensive
Do you guys really think its reasonable
They have to reduce the supply. You KNOW they have to change this. Instead of saying to keep it the same way (not going to happen) suggest a new way to do things
You are seriously underestimating the amount of available coal wards on the AH that came from invoking. Pretty sure it would be almost all of them.
While I wouldn't even begin to guess at an actual number, I bet your crazy 2000% drop in availability isn't as off as you think it is.
I can see, however, how such a change would appeal to regular lockbox openers as it eliminates 100% of the competetive market supply of Coal wards. Why else would someone reason in favor of the removal of free stuff?
Give it a couple hours at least. No one is going to be at the Cryptic office yet.