Looks like 20 seconds to me. There are a few disparities but averages to 20 seconds, and the disparities may be simply in the time recorded since it seems to correct itself.
I'll try to break this down for the simple minds in this thread with a few real world examples.
Scenario 1 now: CW vs CW
Let's say a TR or CW has 26-28k life, fairly typical for a geared player. Let's go with a CW vs a CW for arguments sake, and later I'll go GWF vs GWF, squishiest and tankiest classes.
So a CW running tenebrous, let's split the difference and call it 27k life. That would be 5670 tenebrous damage every 20 seconds as tenebrous is now. Let's say you have rank 10 darks and the CW miraculously has enough armor that you are negating it all with darks. You're talking 21% more damage at that point, impossible but we'll call it that. I'm not even going to go over 100 seconds or some stupid calculation like that, because a fight between CWs will not last 20 seconds, not in the least. All that matters is when one person's HP hits 0. How much damage would it take with 21% to make up for that tenebrous damage? x*.21=5670, so x = 27000. Guess what, both of these CWs die at the same time. Now in reality, the CW with tenebrous will win, because one with darks will not see a 21% damage increase vs this character no matter if they add crit, power, arm pen, or any combination. Also tenebrous cannot currently be dodged whereas other skills can be. This is also kind of assuming CW with tenebrous got the first hit and all procced for full damage, which will not always be the case... The winner of this fight almost comes down to first hit and dodging but definitely favors the tenebrous user right now.
Scenario 1 after nerf:
With tenebrous able to be dodged, reduced by the defense that the CW with darks will have left, and able to be deflected. A properly geared CW with tenebrous will still negate all the defense most CWs have, so edge to tenebrous, but with deflection, dark gets the edge. Now if it's normal enchants like azure or radiant instead of just dark, this guy gets a nice damage boost and definitely, definitely wins over the tenebrous CW.
Scenario 2 now: CW vs GWF
Again with tenebrous you're talking at best 5670 damage from the CW. Let's assume that the fight goes on for 20 seconds, although if you read this thread a senti GWF is unkillable unless there is at least 2 people, so how about take a look at that for a balance issue devs? When below half health these guys are getting back say 20k life give or take every 30 seconds from regen alone. Now we already know he has to do 27k damage in 20 seconds for dark 10s to be more effective than tenebrous. This is easily done unless the GWF is in unstoppable. Can you do 27k to a GWF in 20 seconds? I would say without unstoppable absolutely, but with it, it will be close. Guess what that means, they're actually pretty even right now devs.
Scenario 2 after nerf: CW vs GWF
Now let's take the same numbers, except this time against a senti GWF with their mitigation and deflection, you are talking about a 70% reduction in tenebrous damage. For GWFs with 50% resist and 40% (note some are higher but I'm using numbers to make the math easy) deflection, you're talking an overall nerf to tenebrous of 50% just from defense, then when you calculate in deflect as well, you're talking 30% of normal damage, a 70% NERF vs senti GWF. And this is without factoring in unstoppable... So let's take that nice number of 5670 and it becomes 1701, again this will be tenebrous damage without the GWF being in unstoppable, with it, it will be even less. At that point how much damage needs to be done before darks are better than tenebrous? 1701/.21 = 8100 damage. That's 8100 damage in 20 seconds devs... A CW could do that while the GWF was in unstoppable the entire time. lol
You just buffed the self proclaimed "unkillable in 1v1" GWF.
Scenario 3: GWF vs CW
Let's say he has 42k hp and 4 tenebrous, that's 5040 tenebrous damage. He's going to negate any CW defense with arm pen, and let's say the CW has 8% deflect, at 50% severity you're talking 4838 tenebrous damage after the nerf. So GWF vs CW, this isn't much of a nerf for GWFs at all.
Scenario 4: GWF vs GWF
So now the tenebrous damage is 5040, after the nerf it would be 1512, again not counting unstoppable. See math above for 70% reduction. Now if you're talking 4 enchants we'll say it's roughly 12% damage increase from darks instead. That means after the patch again, discounting unstoppable, a GWF would have to do 12,600 damage (1512/.12) in that 20 seconds before darks are better than tenebrous. Now if the GWFs are at half life, they have to do 6,300 before darks are better.
Conclusion:
Tenebrous nerf = giant buff to a class that calls themselves unkillable in 1v1, GWF!!! So they barely lose damage vs CWs, while CWs lose a TON of damage vs them. Rethink how you are doing this nerf devs... You're making GWFs that much harder to kill while making it almost as easy for them to kill other classes...
I think what really needs to be looked at here devs is how these enchants affect different classes. You can't go by one or people complaining under certain situations, so I tried to provide numbers from each end of the spectrum for high end pvp.
You didnt take into account that soulforged can negate all your dark enchant HAMSTER, you didn't take into account that dark enchant can also be deflected. And also you assumed your (x*0.21= Tenebrous damage) without adding deflection and DR, and then again you added it suddenly at the last part of your calculation [CW vs GWF]
You just assumed that tene proc is deflected everytime and the armor pen damage isn't. Your math is beyond HAMSTER.
You didnt take into account that soulforged can negate all your dark enchant HAMSTER, you didn't take into account that dark enchant can also be deflected. And also you assumed your (x*0.21= Tenebrous damage) without adding deflection and DR, and then again you added it suddenly at the last part of your calculation [CW vs GWF]
You just assumed that tene proc is deflected everytime and the armor pen damage isn't. Your math is beyond HAMSTER.
Once again you're an idiot. I wasn't counting soulforged proc because everyone knows of this change, this is simple math for simple people and soulforge is not relevant for calculations. I noted tenebrous has the advantage now where it is appropriate and mentioned that the damage could not be dodged for CW vs CW currently. I took into account defense and deflection after the nerf for CW vs CW, learn to read.
For DPS calculations, again DPS is damage per second. Stop being a HAMSTER here, this would include crits, your vorpal, EVERYTHING, including damage resistance and deflection. It is also completely calculated in for scenario 2 after the nerf... Learn to read!!! Again for scenario 3, it is fully calculated, my god you're an idiot...
I did not assume tenebrous proc was deflected everytime, I assumed it was deflected 8% for CW and 40% for GWF...
Once again you're an idiot. I wasn't counting soulforged proc because everyone knows of this change, this is simple math for simple people.
I took into account defense and deflection after the nerf, you're just too stupid to understand.
Sorry, where did the developer say that tene wont go through soulforged? he said it wont go pass Deflect + dodge+ DR. Did he say anything about immunity?
Now about your deflection bullcrap, do you realize how lucky you need to be to deflect something that procs every 20 seconds? something that even procs with damage over time?
If you dodge initial proc, how can you dodge the second? you do realize that plague fire DoT can proc it. Good luck dodging /deflecting that. If you will describe a real time scenarion, then take all parameters in consideration.
I have real numbers with crit and crit severity included, even with DR included. You have imaginary fairy tales scenario where Tene procs gets deflected every 20 seconds LOL must be a lucky guy who can deflect that don't you think?
Also another point, you can;t kill sent GWf 1 vs 1 post nerf thats true, but was it possible even before the nerf? i don't recall any Sent GWF dying 1 vs 1 to anyone right now. Never seen it. Two sents would hit eachothers forever, and no CW can 1 vs 1 sent GWF.
So after nerf, you need 2 ppl to kill them, before nerf you need 2 people to kill them. Where is the difference? you assumed that you need two stacking tene players to take down 1 sent GWf which isn't even true.
Most of your player base are happy with this change. COmpared to the 0.2 % who have spent money on buying tene's and the rest of the player base who shell out maybe 40 dollars for a mount and probably 10-20 bucks every so often...
I will think you will understand where the money comes from and who to side with on this...
Thousands who spend random amount vs a select few who spent alot.
Economics 101
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kelletonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
the fact that you have to build a guide on how to deal with an enchant is proof in its self that the enchant needs a nerf
Now about your deflection bullcrap, do you realize how lucky you need to be to deflect something that procs every 20 seconds? something that even procs with damage over time?
You think the % you deflect magically changes based on how many hits there are or how lucky you are? You're wrong, 40% of 10 hits will be 4, 40% of 100 hits will be 100. It's still 40%.
I have real numbers with crit and crit severity included, even with DR included. You have imaginary fairy tales scenario where Tene procs gets deflected every 20 seconds LOL must be a lucky guy who can deflect that don't you think?
Again when considering dps your crit and crit severity are already included. You can't say I have 1000 dps but then with vorpal and crits you have 1250 dps, you still have 1000 dps... See above test, done today with a tenebrous, looks like 20 seconds to me... Go do your own test to prove me wrong if you believe it to be false...
Also another point, you can;t kill sent GWf 1 vs 1 post nerf thats true, but was it possible even before the nerf? i don't recall any Sent GWF dying 1 vs 1 to anyone right now. Never seen it. Two sents would hit eachothers forever, and no CW can 1 vs 1 sent GWF.
Trace challenged you, he's a very good CW, so go try that. If you're right and NO character can kill a GWF, then maybe it's time for the devs to nerf GWFs.
So after nerf, you need 2 ppl to kill them, before nerf you need 2 people to kill them. Where is the difference? you assumed that you need two stacking tene players to take down 1 sent GWf which isn't even true.
At no point did I say you need 2 people stacking tenebrous to take down a GWF. This statement is as imaginary as your numbers.
Also another point, you can;t kill sent GWf 1 vs 1 post nerf thats true, but was it possible even before the nerf? i don't recall any Sent GWF dying 1 vs 1 to anyone right now. Never seen it. Two sents would hit eachothers forever, and no CW can 1 vs 1 sent GWF.
I can kill Sent GWF 1v1...but i'm a TR...so meh =/
Looks like 20 seconds to me. There are a few disparities but averages to 20 seconds, and the disparities may be simply in the time recorded since it seems to correct itself.
If you equip 1, time JUSt the firs two procs. Most of the time it will be <20 seconds because its a serverside CD. Thats what im getting at.. Just the first two procs.
You think the % you deflect magically changes based on how many hits there are or how lucky you are? You're wrong, 40% of 10 hits will be 4, 40% of 100 hits will be 100. It's still 40%.
Please quote me where did i say it depends on number of hits? If i have 25% deflect chance, it means if i get 8 hits, i will deflect 2 of them so 2 out of 8 are deflected. if i get 100 hits, i will deflect 25 of them. Within 20 seconds, i can do lets say, 20 hits, 1 every second, so with 25% deflect chance i have a chance to deflect 5 of these 20 hits. How can you be sure the tenebrous proc will be one of them?
Again when considering dps your crit and crit severity are already included. You can't say I have 1000 dps but then with vorpal and crits you have 1250 dps, you still have 1000 dps... See above test, done today with a tenebrous, looks like 20 seconds to me... Go do your own test to prove me wrong if you believe it to be false...
I didn't say that tenebrous arent proccing every 20 seconds, i was saying you can;t be sure that you will deflect an attack every 20 seconds.
DPS = damage per second i never said 1000 DPS = 1250 DPS with crit & severity. i simply took 1000 damage and applied 50% crit severity on it ( with 100% crit chance, since i said it will crit twice within 20 seconds) , which increased it by 1.5 more leading to 2500.
Trace challenged you, he's a very good CW, so go try that. If you're right and NO character can kill a GWF, then maybe it's time for the devs to nerf GWFs.
If you are a tank, you dont die 1 vs 1. If you die 1 vs 1, you arent a tank anymore.
At no point did I say you need 2 people stacking tenebrous to take down a GWF. This statement is as imaginary as your numbers.
Then why you did you make calculation based on CW using tene to kill a GWF and failing? Why did you say that GWF is empowered due to tenebrous nerf ? why did you say that GWF now is more unkillable because of tenebrous reduced damage? if you don't need tenebrous to kill one, then things remaines unchanged with tene or no tene. Hence leads to conclusion that the nerfs wont affect 1 vs 1 situations with GWFs since you don't need tene to kill them.
Also something even more failing about your HAMSTER math, you forgot that CWs can debuff GWFs mitigation with HV+ Terror/PF+ RoI. Mitigation debuff is applied before damage calculations ( after armor pen) But ofcourse, you live in your own world.
Please quote me where did i say it depends on number of hits? If i have 25% deflect chance, it means if i get 8 hits, i will deflect 2 of them so 2 out of 8 are deflected. if i get 100 hits, i will deflect 25 of them. Within 20 seconds, i can do lets say, 20 hits, 1 every second, so with 25% deflect chance i have a chance to deflect 5 of these 20 hits. How can you be sure the tenebrous proc will be one of them?
You can't, but you can go by the percentage when making math calculations. It's not luck as you implied, it's still a percentage.
I do 1k damage per second, 2 of them critted with 50% severity
so (1000x18)+(2500x2)= 23000, lets say my taget has 30% mitigation. And i would deal 7500 damage from tene due to my 36k HP. So total damage is (23000+7500 )-9150= 21350.
I don't even know where to begin. If you do 1000 dps, you do 1000 dps with your crits. Why don't you get that.
But okay you're calculating crits, how did 1000 damage with crit turn into 2 2500 damage crits with 50% severity? 1000*1.5=1500...
I don't even know where to begin. If you do 1000 dps, you do 1000 dps with your crits. Why don't you get that.
But okay you're calculating crits, how did 1000 damage with crit turn into 2 2500 damage crits with 50% severity? 1000*1.5=1500...
Once again, you're an idiot.
Wops my bad, so it is 3000 instead of 5000. which would make the tene damage : 19950 vs 21840 from darks. Around the same damage, still, -->if we take in consideration the mitigation debuff from weapon enchantment of the target<---. oooooooooooooor if we dont take the mitigation debuff in consideration...still 1890 damage difference..which is..meh..not even noticeable .
Makes us even when you said that 40% of 100 hits is 100 :cool: makes us two idiots.
Makes us even when you said that 40% of 100 hits is 100 :cool: makes us two idiots.
I said this where? Face it, your math is bad and you should feel bad bro. You should never argue with someone with actual evidence. Here's a general rule of thumb, if you're not the smartest person in the room, leave the room.
Also, by your math aren't you now arguing that normal enchants are better than tenebrous, while calling for a nerf to tenebrous?
I said this where? Face it, your math is bad and you should feel bad bro. You should never argue with someone with actual evidence. Here's a general rule of thumb, if you're not the smartest person in the room, leave the room.
You know esteena was showing some modesty and backed off a bit and you still come hard....
Not making a strong case for yourself...
I am Against Tene's ... but if your going to have a discussion and one person decides things have got a bit heated and backs off...
that's not a license for you to become more of an a**...show some maturity.
Edit: I am leaning toward esteena winning the smartest person in the room competition.
You know esteena was showing some modesty and backed off a bit and you still come hard....
Not making a strong case for yourself...
I am Against Tene's ... but if your going to have a discussion and one person decides things have got a bit heated and backs off...
that's not a license for you to become more of an a**...show some maturity.
Edit: I am leaning toward esteena winning the smartest person in the room competition.
bad behavior is bad.
He hasn't really backed off, he made another 2 attacks in that statement. One that I said 40% of 100 is 100, and 2 he called me an idiot. That's all he does is make attacks without any evidence and fails to offer any real math without errors or even statements without errors. If he has backed off at all, it is because I have made valid arguments at every turn and proved him wrong on upwards of 10 different points so far.
Face it, your math is bad and you should feel bad bro. You should never argue with someone with actual evidence. Here's a general rule of thumb, if you're not the smartest person in the room, leave the room.
Also, by your math aren't you now arguing that normal enchants are better than tenebrous, while calling for a nerf to tenebrous?
1890 damage difference ( without taking in account the mitigation debuff from PF/ terror nor that Soul forged can negate the damage incase of not using tene) which makes them DEAL THE SAME DAMAGE if not making the tenebrous actually dealing more damage.
IF my math is bad...PROVE IT WRONG. the only thing you have proven so far are "WORDS" no numbers, you created scenarios where CW actually is not reducing ANY mitigation and then applied your tenebrous calculation..which is pure bullcrap. CWs are the masters of mitigation debuffers, so you actually made imaginary situation that doesn't even exist..
I can kill Sent GWF 1v1...but i'm a TR...so meh =/
You can't even kill a rogue 1v1... Do you seriously expect people to believe you can kill a Sent GWF? Your reality must be nice to live in where you can do anything and everything.
/facepalm
Edit: Esteena, I don't know why people are still arguing with you when you lay the math out there for everyone to see. Mind-boggling.
1890 damage difference ( without taking in account the mitigation debuff from PF/ terror nor that Soul forged can negate the damage incase of not using tene) which makes them DEAL THE SAME DAMAGE if not making the tenebrous actually dealing more damage.
IF my math is bad...PROVE IT WRONG. the only thing you have proven so far are "WORDS" no numbers, you created scenarios where CW actually is not reducing ANY mitigation and then applied your tenebrous calculation..which is pure bullcrap. CWs are the masters of mitigation debuffers, so you actually made imaginary situation that doesn't even exist..
Holy...dude...are you really that stupid? x.x
lol I did say that didn't I? haha. I misspoke and I apologize.
My calculations have been enchant for enchant, slot for slot. When taking these into account you can't say oh I have 1000 arm pen without the enchants, because you will have that either way. The only calculations I've done are 1 enchant slot for 1 enchant slot. I have proved your math wrong on at least 2 occasions already. Would you like a 3rd?
As far as mitigation, this is factored in after defense vs arm pen calculations. Again this is not pertinent to the calculations. These count as a debuff that goes on after arm pen vs defense is calculated, you can't simply factor that in as it comes after the fact.
My scenario from before, CW vs GWF:
Scenario 2 now: CW vs GWF
Again with tenebrous you're talking at best 5670 damage from the CW. Let's assume that the fight goes on for 20 seconds, although if you read this thread a senti GWF is unkillable unless there is at least 2 people, so how about take a look at that for a balance issue devs? When below half health these guys are getting back say 20k life give or take every 30 seconds from regen alone. Now we already know he has to do 27k damage in 20 seconds for dark 10s to be more effective than tenebrous. This is easily done unless the GWF is in unstoppable. Can you do 27k to a GWF in 20 seconds? I would say without unstoppable absolutely, but with it, it will be close. Guess what that means, they're actually pretty even right now devs.
So with darks what I said was you have to 27k damage in 20 seconds, this is where the mitigation comes in. With the increased damage from debuffs, can you do 27k, that's what I asked.
lol I did say that didn't I? haha. I misspoke and I apologize.
My calculations have been enchant for enchant, slot for slot. When taking these into account you can't say oh I have 1000 arm pen without the enchants, because you will have that either way. The only calculations I've done are 1 enchant slot for 1 enchant slot. I have proved your math wrong on at least 2 occasions already. Would you like a 3rd?
Lol, i did prove you that you would deal same damage. My calculations are based on a player having 35k HP.Which is a GWF or GF damage differences with tenes and with rank 10 darks. ( and i didn't take base armor pen in consideration either i was also comparing enchant vs enchant)
You even said that in CW vs CW, tene will win incase of no deflection. And to deflect an enchant that procs every 20 seconds and that can even proc with damage over time? i don't know, would happen rarely especially with players with 15~20% deflection chance. Since players with 30%+ deflection chance are already unkillable 1 vs 1 even with the current Tene.
And you went with a CW vs GWF scenario and you say your proved me wrong?
Please show me one occasion where a CW can kill sent GWF 1 vs 1. With tene nerf or without it.
You
Can't
Make
Assumption
With
A
Scenario
That
Can't even
Happen.
CW can't kill sent GWF 1 vs 1, not now, not after the nerf. IT isn't possible, they can stall them for a while till the CW die. Be realistic.
Bottom Line:
GWF Sent is unkillable 1 vs 1, no class can kill it 1 vs 1. Tenebrous nerf wont affect it, because you still need 2 people minimum to take him down.
Post tenebrous nerf: you need two people to kill him.
Before tenebrous nerd: you need two people to kill him.
So stop making long calculations on GWF vs squishies...it is just stupid. GWF will always win, whether his target uses tene or not. It is just a matter of how much damage that GWF will make with tenes, and how much damage he would make with rank 10 darks. We are apparently proving two different things here.
Ther nerf is majorly affecting CWs and TRs, because they have the least HP here so they deal the least tenebrous damage ( but not the least over all damage). So they will get tuned downed abit. no one is being empowered, just others dealing less damage from tenes.
Also, dont forget soulforged, which can negate armor pen but not tenerbrous. And dont forget barshield which can negate tenerbous but not as effective against armor pen.
So, honestly, going Rank 10 darks or G tenes, it is the same thing eventually by taking all things in consideration.
well i didnt play for some time but this is funny coz this is how i remeber it: 99% of players with gtenes said they were smart and got them before everyone else when they were cheap like 15k.so for them is extream proffit even now if they sell em.
now 99% gtene players say that they bought them with real money.and the ones that didnt buy them are losers with no money and should lose anyway.
I dont get why ppl even try to value tenes and r10s with math and numbers in a pvp match.
U just cant calculate all the random stuff with tenes like doubleproccs or proccs on half health or proccs when u are cc'ing another player even when u wanna go for a kill on another one.
Tenes are just to random to calculate it via math.
U are not hitting a target dummy and u cant decide when tenes procc and when not.
That's why ppl call them ''op'' cuz they only see the bright side of this enchant and not the countless downsides.
U have to play pvp at high lvl to understand the value of tenes and the value of r10s.
NOONE sees that tenes on a cw will be even stronger after the ''nerf'' against other cw's and tr's than befor since they should work with mitigation and u already have enough arp to take their defense to 0.
So enfeeble, HV stacks, elemental empowerment and coi debuff if specced for it u can reach INSANE dmg with tenes, way higher than befor. This mitigation works for EVERYONE who is hitting the debuffed target and this MAY result in even higher dmg than befor, depending on ur class, build and luck with deflect.
Also NOONE takes into account that u can dismount ppl with tene proccs, so it's not all about that so called ''op'' burst which it isnt IF u play at high lvl pvp, noone cares about getting HAMSTER in pug pvp.
Ppl going crazy on selling their tenes instead of thinking about new builds and new min/max to make them VERY viable again.
If they rly nerf tenes the way they announced, which i doubt, u just have to decide how u wanna build ur char for pvp.
Just saying tenes will still be a viable option IF u know how to build ur char around it, but since 90% of the ppl have no clue about min/max they just gonna rush selling them and getting angry when the top players discovered new builds WITH tenes.
Half the ppl here doesnt even know how tenes work or are still convinced gwf are unkillable by cw's which is the biggest joke i ever heared.
Yes gwf are unkillable by a normaly geared cw with r5 radiants and pvp set but bring an equal geared cw against him.
I have no problem killing any gwf and that already proves that there is so much missing exp in pvp in general to even value tenes in pvp.
This missing exp results in crying on the forums and an nerfed enchants which is VERY strong but not so ''op'' like most of the ppl here think or try to value with their insane math skills:D
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Wow, this thread has become a mathematical train wreck.
I dont get why ppl even try to value tenes and r10s with math and numbers in a pvp match.
U just cant calculate all the random stuff with tenes like doubleproccs or proccs on half health or proccs when u are cc'ing another player even when u wanna go for a kill on another one.
Tenes are just to random to calculate it via math.
U are not hitting a target dummy and u cant decide when tenes procc and when not.
That's why ppl call them ''op'' cuz they only see the bright side of this enchant and not the countless downsides.
U have to play pvp at high lvl to understand the value of tenes and the value of r10s.
NOONE sees that tenes on a cw will be even stronger after the ''nerf'' against other cw's and tr's than befor since they should work with mitigation and u already have enough arp to take their defense to 0.
So enfeeble, HV stacks, elemental empowerment and coi debuff if specced for it u can reach INSANE dmg with tenes, way higher than befor. This mitigation works for EVERYONE who is hitting the debuffed target and this MAY result in even higher dmg than befor, depending on ur class, build and luck with deflect.
Also NOONE takes into account that u can dismount ppl with tene proccs, so it's not all about that so called ''op'' burst which it isnt IF u play at high lvl pvp, noone cares about getting HAMSTER in pug pvp.
Ppl going crazy on selling their tenes instead of thinking about new builds and new min/max to make them VERY viable again.
If they rly nerf tenes the way they announced, which i doubt, u just have to decide how u wanna build ur char for pvp.
Just saying tenes will still be a viable option IF u know how to build ur char around it, but since 90% of the ppl have no clue about min/max they just gonna rush selling them and getting angry when the top players discovered new builds WITH tenes.
Half the ppl here doesnt even know how tenes work or are still convinced gwf are unkillable by cw's which is the biggest joke i ever heared.
Yes gwf are unkillable by a normaly geared cw with r5 radiants and pvp set but bring an equal geared cw against him.
I have no problem killing any gwf and that already proves that there is so much missing exp in pvp in general to even value tenes in pvp.
This missing exp results in crying on the forums and an nerfed enchants which is VERY strong but not so ''op'' like most of the ppl here think or try to value with their insane math skills:D
Wall of text crit > tene damage.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes gwf are unkillable by a normaly geared cw with r5 radiants and pvp set but bring an equal geared cw against him.
I have no problem killing any gwf and that already proves that there is so much missing exp in pvp in general to even value tenes in pvp.
Your very own Alt CW which has pro gear (and I assume skills as well) barely scratched Gannicus in your premade and all it did when Gannicus was on him was to jump around helplessly waiting for the inevitable death, which happened quite a lot of times.
From what I saw, I'd say he has like 5% chance to solo kill Gannicus. GTE vs GTE, pro PvPer vs pro PvPer.
If you can solo Gannicus or other similarly good/geared GWFs, I'd be happy to see a video from you doing it, so I can learn from it.
Comments
Just went to the dummy right then ACT with 1 tenebrous, I suggest you do the same...
Proc times:
6:16:37
6:16:57
6:17:17
6:17:37
6:17:59
6:18:17
6:18:37
6:18:57
6:19:17
6:19:37
6:19:57
6:20:21
6:20:37
Looks like 20 seconds to me. There are a few disparities but averages to 20 seconds, and the disparities may be simply in the time recorded since it seems to correct itself.
You didnt take into account that soulforged can negate all your dark enchant HAMSTER, you didn't take into account that dark enchant can also be deflected. And also you assumed your (x*0.21= Tenebrous damage) without adding deflection and DR, and then again you added it suddenly at the last part of your calculation [CW vs GWF]
You just assumed that tene proc is deflected everytime and the armor pen damage isn't. Your math is beyond HAMSTER.
Once again you're an idiot. I wasn't counting soulforged proc because everyone knows of this change, this is simple math for simple people and soulforge is not relevant for calculations. I noted tenebrous has the advantage now where it is appropriate and mentioned that the damage could not be dodged for CW vs CW currently. I took into account defense and deflection after the nerf for CW vs CW, learn to read.
For DPS calculations, again DPS is damage per second. Stop being a HAMSTER here, this would include crits, your vorpal, EVERYTHING, including damage resistance and deflection. It is also completely calculated in for scenario 2 after the nerf... Learn to read!!! Again for scenario 3, it is fully calculated, my god you're an idiot...
I did not assume tenebrous proc was deflected everytime, I assumed it was deflected 8% for CW and 40% for GWF...
Sorry, where did the developer say that tene wont go through soulforged? he said it wont go pass Deflect + dodge+ DR. Did he say anything about immunity?
Now about your deflection bullcrap, do you realize how lucky you need to be to deflect something that procs every 20 seconds? something that even procs with damage over time?
If you dodge initial proc, how can you dodge the second? you do realize that plague fire DoT can proc it. Good luck dodging /deflecting that. If you will describe a real time scenarion, then take all parameters in consideration.
I have real numbers with crit and crit severity included, even with DR included. You have imaginary fairy tales scenario where Tene procs gets deflected every 20 seconds LOL must be a lucky guy who can deflect that don't you think?
Also another point, you can;t kill sent GWf 1 vs 1 post nerf thats true, but was it possible even before the nerf? i don't recall any Sent GWF dying 1 vs 1 to anyone right now. Never seen it. Two sents would hit eachothers forever, and no CW can 1 vs 1 sent GWF.
So after nerf, you need 2 ppl to kill them, before nerf you need 2 people to kill them. Where is the difference? you assumed that you need two stacking tene players to take down 1 sent GWf which isn't even true.
Most of your player base are happy with this change. COmpared to the 0.2 % who have spent money on buying tene's and the rest of the player base who shell out maybe 40 dollars for a mount and probably 10-20 bucks every so often...
I will think you will understand where the money comes from and who to side with on this...
Thousands who spend random amount vs a select few who spent alot.
Economics 101
You think the % you deflect magically changes based on how many hits there are or how lucky you are? You're wrong, 40% of 10 hits will be 4, 40% of 100 hits will be 100. It's still 40%.
Again when considering dps your crit and crit severity are already included. You can't say I have 1000 dps but then with vorpal and crits you have 1250 dps, you still have 1000 dps... See above test, done today with a tenebrous, looks like 20 seconds to me... Go do your own test to prove me wrong if you believe it to be false...
Trace challenged you, he's a very good CW, so go try that. If you're right and NO character can kill a GWF, then maybe it's time for the devs to nerf GWFs.
At no point did I say you need 2 people stacking tenebrous to take down a GWF. This statement is as imaginary as your numbers.
I can kill Sent GWF 1v1...but i'm a TR...so meh =/
If you equip 1, time JUSt the firs two procs. Most of the time it will be <20 seconds because its a serverside CD. Thats what im getting at.. Just the first two procs.
Please quote me where did i say it depends on number of hits? If i have 25% deflect chance, it means if i get 8 hits, i will deflect 2 of them so 2 out of 8 are deflected. if i get 100 hits, i will deflect 25 of them. Within 20 seconds, i can do lets say, 20 hits, 1 every second, so with 25% deflect chance i have a chance to deflect 5 of these 20 hits. How can you be sure the tenebrous proc will be one of them?
(btw 40% of 100 hits is 40 hits, not 100.)
I didn't say that tenebrous arent proccing every 20 seconds, i was saying you can;t be sure that you will deflect an attack every 20 seconds.
DPS = damage per second i never said 1000 DPS = 1250 DPS with crit & severity. i simply took 1000 damage and applied 50% crit severity on it ( with 100% crit chance, since i said it will crit twice within 20 seconds) , which increased it by 1.5 more leading to 2500.
If you are a tank, you dont die 1 vs 1. If you die 1 vs 1, you arent a tank anymore.
Then why you did you make calculation based on CW using tene to kill a GWF and failing? Why did you say that GWF is empowered due to tenebrous nerf ? why did you say that GWF now is more unkillable because of tenebrous reduced damage? if you don't need tenebrous to kill one, then things remaines unchanged with tene or no tene. Hence leads to conclusion that the nerfs wont affect 1 vs 1 situations with GWFs since you don't need tene to kill them.
Also something even more failing about your HAMSTER math, you forgot that CWs can debuff GWFs mitigation with HV+ Terror/PF+ RoI. Mitigation debuff is applied before damage calculations ( after armor pen) But ofcourse, you live in your own world.
And im the queen of England. so meh.
really ?!?!? Wow, didn't know she played MMO's... nice to meet you.. please forward 500 million euro to me at your earliest convenience
How about AD? as a queen, i got lots of them. But you have to be my loyal servant.
You can't, but you can go by the percentage when making math calculations. It's not luck as you implied, it's still a percentage.
I don't even know where to begin. If you do 1000 dps, you do 1000 dps with your crits. Why don't you get that.
But okay you're calculating crits, how did 1000 damage with crit turn into 2 2500 damage crits with 50% severity? 1000*1.5=1500...
Once again, you're an idiot.
I think something can be arranged
Percentage..luck..whatever you call it
Wops my bad, so it is 3000 instead of 5000. which would make the tene damage : 19950 vs 21840 from darks. Around the same damage, still, -->if we take in consideration the mitigation debuff from weapon enchantment of the target<---. oooooooooooooor if we dont take the mitigation debuff in consideration...still 1890 damage difference..which is..meh..not even noticeable
Makes us even when you said that 40% of 100 hits is 100 :cool: makes us two idiots.
I said this where? Face it, your math is bad and you should feel bad bro. You should never argue with someone with actual evidence. Here's a general rule of thumb, if you're not the smartest person in the room, leave the room.
Also, by your math aren't you now arguing that normal enchants are better than tenebrous, while calling for a nerf to tenebrous?
You know esteena was showing some modesty and backed off a bit and you still come hard....
Not making a strong case for yourself...
I am Against Tene's ... but if your going to have a discussion and one person decides things have got a bit heated and backs off...
that's not a license for you to become more of an a**...show some maturity.
Edit: I am leaning toward esteena winning the smartest person in the room competition.
bad behavior is bad.
He hasn't really backed off, he made another 2 attacks in that statement. One that I said 40% of 100 is 100, and 2 he called me an idiot. That's all he does is make attacks without any evidence and fails to offer any real math without errors or even statements without errors. If he has backed off at all, it is because I have made valid arguments at every turn and proved him wrong on upwards of 10 different points so far.
1890 damage difference ( without taking in account the mitigation debuff from PF/ terror nor that Soul forged can negate the damage incase of not using tene) which makes them DEAL THE SAME DAMAGE if not making the tenebrous actually dealing more damage.
IF my math is bad...PROVE IT WRONG. the only thing you have proven so far are "WORDS" no numbers, you created scenarios where CW actually is not reducing ANY mitigation and then applied your tenebrous calculation..which is pure bullcrap. CWs are the masters of mitigation debuffers, so you actually made imaginary situation that doesn't even exist..
Holy...dude...are you really that stupid? x.x
You can't even kill a rogue 1v1... Do you seriously expect people to believe you can kill a Sent GWF? Your reality must be nice to live in where you can do anything and everything.
/facepalm
Edit: Esteena, I don't know why people are still arguing with you when you lay the math out there for everyone to see. Mind-boggling.
lol I did say that didn't I? haha. I misspoke and I apologize.
My calculations have been enchant for enchant, slot for slot. When taking these into account you can't say oh I have 1000 arm pen without the enchants, because you will have that either way. The only calculations I've done are 1 enchant slot for 1 enchant slot. I have proved your math wrong on at least 2 occasions already. Would you like a 3rd?
As far as mitigation, this is factored in after defense vs arm pen calculations. Again this is not pertinent to the calculations. These count as a debuff that goes on after arm pen vs defense is calculated, you can't simply factor that in as it comes after the fact.
My scenario from before, CW vs GWF:
Scenario 2 now: CW vs GWF
Again with tenebrous you're talking at best 5670 damage from the CW. Let's assume that the fight goes on for 20 seconds, although if you read this thread a senti GWF is unkillable unless there is at least 2 people, so how about take a look at that for a balance issue devs? When below half health these guys are getting back say 20k life give or take every 30 seconds from regen alone. Now we already know he has to do 27k damage in 20 seconds for dark 10s to be more effective than tenebrous. This is easily done unless the GWF is in unstoppable. Can you do 27k to a GWF in 20 seconds? I would say without unstoppable absolutely, but with it, it will be close. Guess what that means, they're actually pretty even right now devs.
So with darks what I said was you have to 27k damage in 20 seconds, this is where the mitigation comes in. With the increased damage from debuffs, can you do 27k, that's what I asked.
Back to the discussion...
Lol, i did prove you that you would deal same damage. My calculations are based on a player having 35k HP.Which is a GWF or GF damage differences with tenes and with rank 10 darks. ( and i didn't take base armor pen in consideration either i was also comparing enchant vs enchant)
You even said that in CW vs CW, tene will win incase of no deflection. And to deflect an enchant that procs every 20 seconds and that can even proc with damage over time? i don't know, would happen rarely especially with players with 15~20% deflection chance. Since players with 30%+ deflection chance are already unkillable 1 vs 1 even with the current Tene.
And you went with a CW vs GWF scenario and you say your proved me wrong?
Please show me one occasion where a CW can kill sent GWF 1 vs 1. With tene nerf or without it.
You
Can't
Make
Assumption
With
A
Scenario
That
Can't even
Happen.
CW can't kill sent GWF 1 vs 1, not now, not after the nerf. IT isn't possible, they can stall them for a while till the CW die. Be realistic.
Bottom Line:
GWF Sent is unkillable 1 vs 1, no class can kill it 1 vs 1. Tenebrous nerf wont affect it, because you still need 2 people minimum to take him down.
Post tenebrous nerf: you need two people to kill him.
Before tenebrous nerd: you need two people to kill him.
So stop making long calculations on GWF vs squishies...it is just stupid. GWF will always win, whether his target uses tene or not. It is just a matter of how much damage that GWF will make with tenes, and how much damage he would make with rank 10 darks. We are apparently proving two different things here.
Ther nerf is majorly affecting CWs and TRs, because they have the least HP here so they deal the least tenebrous damage ( but not the least over all damage). So they will get tuned downed abit. no one is being empowered, just others dealing less damage from tenes.
Also, dont forget soulforged, which can negate armor pen but not tenerbrous. And dont forget barshield which can negate tenerbous but not as effective against armor pen.
So, honestly, going Rank 10 darks or G tenes, it is the same thing eventually by taking all things in consideration.
now 99% gtene players say that they bought them with real money.and the ones that didnt buy them are losers with no money and should lose anyway.
U just cant calculate all the random stuff with tenes like doubleproccs or proccs on half health or proccs when u are cc'ing another player even when u wanna go for a kill on another one.
Tenes are just to random to calculate it via math.
U are not hitting a target dummy and u cant decide when tenes procc and when not.
That's why ppl call them ''op'' cuz they only see the bright side of this enchant and not the countless downsides.
U have to play pvp at high lvl to understand the value of tenes and the value of r10s.
NOONE sees that tenes on a cw will be even stronger after the ''nerf'' against other cw's and tr's than befor since they should work with mitigation and u already have enough arp to take their defense to 0.
So enfeeble, HV stacks, elemental empowerment and coi debuff if specced for it u can reach INSANE dmg with tenes, way higher than befor. This mitigation works for EVERYONE who is hitting the debuffed target and this MAY result in even higher dmg than befor, depending on ur class, build and luck with deflect.
Also NOONE takes into account that u can dismount ppl with tene proccs, so it's not all about that so called ''op'' burst which it isnt IF u play at high lvl pvp, noone cares about getting HAMSTER in pug pvp.
Ppl going crazy on selling their tenes instead of thinking about new builds and new min/max to make them VERY viable again.
If they rly nerf tenes the way they announced, which i doubt, u just have to decide how u wanna build ur char for pvp.
Just saying tenes will still be a viable option IF u know how to build ur char around it, but since 90% of the ppl have no clue about min/max they just gonna rush selling them and getting angry when the top players discovered new builds WITH tenes.
Half the ppl here doesnt even know how tenes work or are still convinced gwf are unkillable by cw's which is the biggest joke i ever heared.
Yes gwf are unkillable by a normaly geared cw with r5 radiants and pvp set but bring an equal geared cw against him.
I have no problem killing any gwf and that already proves that there is so much missing exp in pvp in general to even value tenes in pvp.
This missing exp results in crying on the forums and an nerfed enchants which is VERY strong but not so ''op'' like most of the ppl here think or try to value with their insane math skills:D
Getting back to the obvious...
Did you hear they're going to nerf Tennys?
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Wall of text crit > tene damage.
Your very own Alt CW which has pro gear (and I assume skills as well) barely scratched Gannicus in your premade and all it did when Gannicus was on him was to jump around helplessly waiting for the inevitable death, which happened quite a lot of times.
From what I saw, I'd say he has like 5% chance to solo kill Gannicus. GTE vs GTE, pro PvPer vs pro PvPer.
If you can solo Gannicus or other similarly good/geared GWFs, I'd be happy to see a video from you doing it, so I can learn from it.