We've been looking at the Tenebrous Enchant some more, and we have a few changes in the works that should be going to preview pretty soon. We've talked about various ideas on what to do, but this is what we've decided to look at first:
Currently, Tenebrous ignores three things that it is not supposed to ignore: Damage Resistance (from AC and Defense, mostly), Deflection, and Shift-Dodges (like the Trickster Rogue roll and Control Wizard teleport). It will no longer ignore these three things. This means the damage it deals will go down as you'll now be able to resist the damage, Deflect stat won't be wasted against it, and if you time your Shifts right, you can avoid the damage.
We'll be monitoring the change on Preview, and looking to see if it has the desired result.
Thanks for all your feedback, everyone!
With that in mind, I would STRONGLY implore you to consider a few aspects in changing this enchant.
I have run the math on these suggestions/considerations and this will REALLY help balance the enchant.
1) With respect to dodge, this should NOT count as the proc and start the CD. If the attack was dodged, it should merely, NOT use the proc, and would be able to proc off the NEXT hit.
2) If one tenebrous enchant proc is deflected it should NOT mean ALL the other procs that hit off that attack are also deflected. Each Tene proc should have its own roll to be deflected.
3) Tenebrous Procs should NOT proc off DoT effects and only hit based of at-wills and encounter powers.
4) Since you are nerfing the overall damage based on those three factors above, I would HIGHLY suggest that you consider changing 1 aspect about how it calculates damage.
- Currently it is based on CURRENT HP. I would ask this to be changed to be based solely on BASE HP.
What is that? When you open up your character tab, and hover over your HP, you will see something like this:
HitPoints: 36,419 but when you hover over that with your mouse this shows up: (26,543 + 9,876) The BASE Hp is on the left followed by your modified additional HP from buffs and items. Using the base HP gives a constant damage multiplier regardless of health status.
What this would mean is that no character can alter the amount of Tenebrous damage they can do, its purely based on BASE hp so stacking radiants etc, wont affect the damage.
This is a pro and a con, at high HP, you will do LESS damage, and at LOW hp you will do more. Its steady.
4) With the above change AND the suggested decrease in damage changes you have proposed, I would suggest the CD be changed as well. Instead of a serverside 20 second CD, PLEASE change that to a 10 second HARD cd. This, combined with #3 allows for more steady DPS which helps the enchant fair better in PVE scenarios and is STILL good in PVP.
5) To continue the utility of this in PVE scenarios, if an AOE attack procs a tenebrous enchant, EACH target hit by the AoE Damage SHOULD be damaged also by the tenebrous enchant proc. This will boost its desire in the PVE crowd giving SOME PVPers an "out" who wish to sell because it is not a valuable enchant for both PVE and PVP.
6) With all these changes, some players will want to (and rightfully so) unsocket these enchants. Currently they cost around 230k each to unsocket. I would suggest making them cost the same as a Rank 7 (around 100-120k) to unsocket. This reduces the price to swap enchants out due to the nerf from 2 mil (with 7) to easily under 1 mil AD which is the equiv of $20. That is easily affordable by most players, especially those who have "BIS" gear. It comes with the territory.
All of these changes will HELP bring the enchant back inline. It will STILL be a very powerful enchant, STILL worth quite a bit of AD, and STILL desired now by a more diverse crowd. It promotes diversity and balance without breaking either one of those things.
I appreciate your ad hominem. Actually my GF has used the HG/KC set up since the Bulwark nerf. It doesn't change the fact you are losing a lot of survivability to do it. HG/KC has 0 deflect making you much more vulnerable to CC blow ups. Yes I know how strong the set is. I also know it dies a lot faster than a regent's geared GF.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Cryptic, you made a very big mistake allowing tenebrous to be so powerful in pvp for so long, and you will be making another mistake if you nerf it without providing fair compensation. This is an even bigger mistake than many of the very big mistakes you have made with this game so even though I don't use tenebrous and don't like to group with people that do this is a friendly little message to you since you guys don't seem to have much common sense.
First of all, you can nerf tenebrous all you want, but if you don't want to be yelled at by accountants for not making your greedy company enough money because you alienated your highest paying customers, you must provide adequate compensation for any nerfs that are serious enough to greatly devalue tenebrous enchantments. The most straight forward would be to allow tenebrous enchantments to be unslotted for free once after every nerf, and put up a vendor that will accept tenebrous enchantments in exchange for zen coins right next to the salvage vendor that scared away a large portion of your population. The amount of zen coins should be equivalent to the average historical sold price of tenebrous enchantments in the auction house. Very straight forward and as fair as can be in this broken exploiting game of yours.
Some decent ideas. Too bad they're couched so rudely and probably won't ever be seriously considered for that reason. Internet anonymity takes customer entitlement to a whole new and ugly height.
regardless of the math. tene should not be affected by DR or deflect. i dont mind if people could dodge or if it didnt work on ITC/untopable/soulforge. thats ok. but on max geared sentinel gwf the only way to kill them is to pronelock and throw tenbrous from multiple characters at it. other wise it wil never die. with this nerf the tanky classes get tankier and the dps classes lose a ton of burst. making pvp even more unbalanced then it already is.
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
ive seen the douple arp set tank almost as good as a regent. but this is getting off topic. tene should not be nerfed this hard. i wouldnt mind if it was altered like being able to dodge, having them not work on soulforge/unstop/itc etc. but being able to deflect them and DR factoring in is kind of bs. alot of people including myself have spent quite alot obtaining the tenebrous enchants and to see them take such a big hit is painful. maybe if they either did DR or deflect and not both. some kind of compromize needs to be met because if the nerf goes through as proposed its not going to be fun for anyone.
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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aviracaineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 22Arc User
Classes that build for survivability through defense/deflect/regen and tailor their abilities around CC and survival aren't getting 1 to 2 shot by anyone. Except these classes do not do much damage either, no matter what rank 10s you put on them. Except we can now throw Tenebrous on them and not only do they have all that survivability, they do pretty strong burst damage as well.
A GF using DPS rank 10s most is not going to be using regents gear. He is going to be in Timeless gear and most likley with DPS accessories. These GFs are much, much squishier than the the former. GWFs lose too much survival if they drop Titan's/Scrappers and don't really gain damage like the other classes do unless they go Destroyer, making them even more squishy. A permastealth rogue now needs to drop survival stats to get more damage, making them more vulnerable.
Yes, decked in rank 10s and DPS gear, people do a lot of damage. They also die a lot faster. And it doesn't take a genius to figure out how Tenebrous work when you play enough to face top geared pvp players. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when I square off with another GWF and in the first round of encounters I am at less than half health and he is still at 80%. It doesn't take a genius to figure out when I throw up a block as GF and in a single at will my entire shield disappears what happened.
You're not allowed to make sensible comments in this thread. Get back on the topic
- waaaah.. fundamentally flawded.. waaah!!1
0
kaoswpBanned Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 144Bounty Hunter
regardless of the math. tene should not be affected by DR or deflect. i dont mind if people could dodge or if it didnt work on ITC/untopable/soulforge. thats ok. but on max geared sentinel gwf the only way to kill them is to pronelock and throw tenbrous from multiple characters at it. other wise it wil never die. with this nerf the tanky classes get tankier and the dps classes lose a ton of burst. making pvp even more unbalanced then it already is.
regardless of the math. tene should not be affected by DR or deflect. i dont mind if people could dodge or if it didnt work on ITC/untopable/soulforge. thats ok. but on max geared sentinel gwf the only way to kill them is to pronelock and throw tenbrous from multiple characters at it. other wise it wil never die. with this nerf the tanky classes get tankier and the dps classes lose a ton of burst. making pvp even more unbalanced then it already is.
There are ALOT of people who disagree with you that the only way to kill GWFs is with tene. Prone lock? Yes it helps a TON. Tene? No. It does help though.
I also agree that this made the GWF class harder to kill, but you also just took away a nice piece of their damage output from tene enchants.
I think the DR and deflect are a good idea overall, and yes the tanky classes get tankier, but they also lost ALOT of their damage (coming from a Sent GWF who used 7 GTEs) The DPS classes DIDNT lose alot of their damage honestly... There are several good non tene builds for TR and CWs, GFs will lose out some, although they can get high arp meaning not a big loss in dps.
If you have a problem with GWFs thats another issue. But for tenes, I think the changes are decent. I would modify them as I posted above though.
ive seen the douple arp set tank almost as good as a regent. but this is getting off topic. tene should not be nerfed this hard. i wouldnt mind if it was altered like being able to dodge, having them not work on soulforge/unstop/itc etc. but being able to deflect them and DR factoring in is kind of bs. alot of people including myself have spent quite alot obtaining the tenebrous enchants and to see them take such a big hit is painful. maybe if they either did DR or deflect and not both. some kind of compromize needs to be met because if the nerf goes through as proposed its not going to be fun for anyone.
I am definitely not in the camp of nerf them to the ground. I think they should be balanced around rank 9-10 enchants. Is this proposed nerf too much. At initial glance it could be. But it is hard to say until you actually see it play out on preview. If they ram this through, it could get ugly. If they actually playtest it out and get real feedback, it might not turn out as bad.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
kaoswpBanned Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 144Bounty Hunter
IMPORTANT: This thread is NOT to debate IF the enchant should be re-worked but HOW they should in light of the following post.
With that in mind, I would STRONGLY implore you to consider a few aspects in changing this enchant.
I have run the math on these suggestions/considerations and this will REALLY help balance the enchant.
1) With respect to dodge, this should NOT count as the proc and start the CD. If the attack was dodged, it should merely, NOT use the proc, and would be able to proc off the NEXT hit.
2) If one tenebrous enchant proc is deflected it should NOT mean ALL the other procs that hit off that attack are also deflected. Each Tene proc should have its own roll to be deflected.
3) Tenebrous Procs should NOT proc off DoT effects and only hit based of at-wills and encounter powers.
4) Since you are nerfing the overall damage based on those three factors above, I would HIGHLY suggest that you consider changing 1 aspect about how it calculates damage.
- Currently it is based on CURRENT HP. I would ask this to be changed to be based solely on BASE HP.
What is that? When you open up your character tab, and hover over your HP, you will see something like this:
HitPoints: 36,419 but when you hover over that with your mouse this shows up: (26,543 + 9,876) The BASE Hp is on the left followed by your modified additional HP from buffs and items. Using the base HP gives a constant damage multiplier regardless of health status.
What this would mean is that no character can alter the amount of Tenebrous damage they can do, its purely based on BASE hp so stacking radiants etc, wont affect the damage.
This is a pro and a con, at high HP, you will do LESS damage, and at LOW hp you will do more. Its steady.
4) With the above change AND the suggested decrease in damage changes you have proposed, I would suggest the CD be changed as well. Instead of a serverside 20 second CD, PLEASE change that to a 10 second HARD cd. This, combined with #3 allows for more steady DPS which helps the enchant fair better in PVE scenarios and is STILL good in PVP.
5) To continue the utility of this in PVE scenarios, if an AOE attack procs a tenebrous enchant, EACH target hit by the AoE Damage SHOULD be damaged also by the tenebrous enchant proc. This will boost its desire in the PVE crowd giving SOME PVPers an "out" who wish to sell because it is not a valuable enchant for both PVE and PVP.
6) With all these changes, some players will want to (and rightfully so) unsocket these enchants. Currently they cost around 230k each to unsocket. I would suggest making them cost the same as a Rank 7 (around 100-120k) to unsocket. This reduces the price to swap enchants out due to the nerf from 2 mil (with 7) to easily under 1 mil AD which is the equiv of $20. That is easily affordable by most players, especially those who have "BIS" gear. It comes with the territory.
All of these changes will HELP bring the enchant back inline. It will STILL be a very powerful enchant, STILL worth quite a bit of AD, and STILL desired now by a more diverse crowd. It promotes diversity and balance without breaking either one of those things.
^ Completely agree.
Specifically the part about the dodging. It dodging wastes the proc, they are going to be too useless /:
I and my friends in enemy team (they don't know it yet but I'm confident in our abilities =P) are going to prove that Tenebrous enchants are not overpowered.
We will accept challenges from any guild (preferably one that uses a lot of Tene's) and will fight them with no Tene's.
We have done quite a large number of GvG matches with many other guilds and as of yet have not lost, we do however use some tene's, I personally use 4 on my GF.
We have multiple players with recording capability and I will make sure to post matches in this thread.
If the forum complainers are correct that Tene's = Win against people without Tene's then this should be a cakewalk right? I am currently at work so if you'd like to set something up you can either post it here or mail me in game. @cribstaxxx
Maybe I'm wrong and we'll lose one, but vs. any team other than lemonade I very highly doubt it =P
Also please stack as many Tene's as you can, according to forums posters 30 tene's vs. no tene's should result in you winning 1000-50 or better.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Trace@degraafination. Find me in game and we can test it out!
a CW killing my sentinel 1vs1? what a joke ^^. Crusher@esteena , look me up at gateway . ( lil tip: Roar interrupts you and makes me spam unstoppable before you start arguing ;D)
Meh i dissagree... I have and can kill many decent to great gf's alone on my cw. As long as i can anticipate his initial attack (bull-lunging) and can counter him with a unblocked entangling force... Its gg for them.
-unbroken
VS a good tank, you can't kill them. CWs are an easy prey if they are alone.
Look at GCTRL videos, he tanked best of the sent GWFs/GFs in dragon 1 vs 1 and he is just a DC.
a CW killing my sentinel 1vs1? what a joke ^^. Crusher@esteena , look me up at gateway . ( lil tip: Roar interrupts you and makes me spam unstoppable before you start arguing ;D)
Agree with that part at least. You argue for a tenebrous nerf without even knowing how they work. I show with math that rank 10 darks a CW or TR will need to do less than 10k damage to outperform tenebrous, and you argue otherwise without even knowing how they work. God forbid someone isn't at full life, a user at half life only has to do 5k damage to another player before darks will be better than tenebrous if this nerf goes through... DEVS RETHINK THIS!!!
Agree with that part at least. You argue for a tenebrous nerf without even knowing how they work. I show with math that rank 10 darks a CW or TR will need to do less than 10k damage to outperform tenebrous, and you argue otherwise without even knowing how they work. God forbid someone isn't at full life, a user at half life only has to do 5k damage to another player before darks will be better than tenebrous if this nerf goes through... DEVS RETHINK THIS!!!
I also showed you with math. If you choose to ignore it that's something else...your numbers were vague and imaginary, my numbers were accurate. And my build is focused on making my health "capped" everytime i proc my tene hence why i never noticed if they depened on currentor total HP.
Prove my math wrong and then talk, don't just throw butthurt accusations .
Here is the comparisons again, keep repeating yourself...that's all you got it seems.
Well let's take this from going against say a CW then, the squishiest class. Most CWs are going to have in the range of 15-20% damage reduction is all, and running HV they might have say 7% deflection chance for 50%. And you're right, with HV stacks it will be closer to 30%, but those aren't always up, especially the defensive stacks in PVP. So now you're talking 7k hits down to 5600 from defense, and ~5200 with deflection calculated. This is roughly a 25% nerf to damage of tenebrous, and that's your best case scenario for the LEAST NERF. Now let's do math again, now you have to do ~70k damage in 20 seconds for rank 5s to be more effective. But remember this is against a squishy CW, the kind of guys TRs can hit for 20-30k lashing blades and 12-15k impact shots. And you can get 2 rotations of these off in that 20 seconds. Now with rank 10 darks, which you still HAVE TO RUN now because of senti GWFs and the tenebrous nerf incoming, a lot of arm pen is wasted on these CWs, so damage numbers here don't really change, just your rank 10s are wasted.
Darks will outperform tenebrous after this update, and that's just dumb. Whether you're up against a squishy CW or a tanky GWF.
Lets say i deal 5000 damage with every weapon swing, every 1 second.
With tene, i would deal 5000+7560 = 12560 damage , which would get reduced to 8792 due to 30% mitigation. for the rest of the 19 seconds, i would deal 5000*19 = 95000 reduced to 66500 due to 30% mitigation ( should be reduced to more due to deflection..) but lets keep it like that for now. So 8792 + 66500 = 75282.
With rank 10 darks, i would get 21% more damage from 7 of them. 35.72*2100^1.88/(1225500+2100^1.88) <---
So, i deal 5000 with every swing, every 1 second.
5000* 20 = 100,000 increased to 121,000...then reduced due to 30% mitigation to 84700 ( should be even lower number due to deflection).
So 75282 from tene , vs 84700 from rank 10 darks. I would still go for tene, since they are sufficient vs squihsy ones while i can already take down tanky ones with 2 vs 1 situations.
Bottom line is, it isn't worth it to slot rank 10 darks, it is an un needed over kill for squishies who can already die from tenes.
IMPORTANT: This thread is NOT to debate IF the enchant should be re-worked but HOW they should in light of the following post.
With that in mind, I would STRONGLY implore you to consider a few aspects in changing this enchant.
I have run the math on these suggestions/considerations and this will REALLY help balance the enchant.
1) With respect to dodge, this should NOT count as the proc and start the CD. If the attack was dodged, it should merely, NOT use the proc, and would be able to proc off the NEXT hit.
2) If one tenebrous enchant proc is deflected it should NOT mean ALL the other procs that hit off that attack are also deflected. Each Tene proc should have its own roll to be deflected.
3) Tenebrous Procs should NOT proc off DoT effects and only hit based of at-wills and encounter powers.
4) Since you are nerfing the overall damage based on those three factors above, I would HIGHLY suggest that you consider changing 1 aspect about how it calculates damage.
- Currently it is based on CURRENT HP. I would ask this to be changed to be based solely on BASE HP.
What is that? When you open up your character tab, and hover over your HP, you will see something like this:
HitPoints: 36,419 but when you hover over that with your mouse this shows up: (26,543 + 9,876) The BASE Hp is on the left followed by your modified additional HP from buffs and items. Using the base HP gives a constant damage multiplier regardless of health status.
What this would mean is that no character can alter the amount of Tenebrous damage they can do, its purely based on BASE hp so stacking radiants etc, wont affect the damage.
This is a pro and a con, at high HP, you will do LESS damage, and at LOW hp you will do more. Its steady.
4) With the above change AND the suggested decrease in damage changes you have proposed, I would suggest the CD be changed as well. Instead of a serverside 20 second CD, PLEASE change that to a 10 second HARD cd. This, combined with #3 allows for more steady DPS which helps the enchant fair better in PVE scenarios and is STILL good in PVP.
5) To continue the utility of this in PVE scenarios, if an AOE attack procs a tenebrous enchant, EACH target hit by the AoE Damage SHOULD be damaged also by the tenebrous enchant proc. This will boost its desire in the PVE crowd giving SOME PVPers an "out" who wish to sell because it is not a valuable enchant for both PVE and PVP.
6) With all these changes, some players will want to (and rightfully so) unsocket these enchants. Currently they cost around 230k each to unsocket. I would suggest making them cost the same as a Rank 7 (around 100-120k) to unsocket. This reduces the price to swap enchants out due to the nerf from 2 mil (with 7) to easily under 1 mil AD which is the equiv of $20. That is easily affordable by most players, especially those who have "BIS" gear. It comes with the territory.
All of these changes will HELP bring the enchant back inline. It will STILL be a very powerful enchant, STILL worth quite a bit of AD, and STILL desired now by a more diverse crowd. It promotes diversity and balance without breaking either one of those things.
Lets not get off topic about measuring Epeens here and who can or cannot 1v1. The DEVs have made it clear the nerf is coming, so hwo do you want to deal with it, spend your time whining about how it SHOULDNT be nerfed, or spend it talking about HOW to balance it with regards to what they have said they are addressing...
I think my quote above is a fair assessment that makes them a balanced enchant. BOTH for PVE and PVP.
I want groups of players with 25+ tene's to challenge us so that I can post numerous video's of tene's losing to R9's. That's pretty solid gameplay evidence I would say that tene's are not overpowered.
Devs were on the verge of destroying the TR class until enough people spoke up about it, then they reverted most of the changes and the class' stealth mechanic remains intact. Just b/c they said they're going to throw around some ideas doesn't mean they're going to implement all or even any of these ideas for sure.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I want groups of players with 25+ tene's to challenge us so that I can post numerous video's of tene's losing to R9's. That's pretty solid gameplay evidence I would say that tene's are not overpowered.
.
Exactly, they are equal in effectiveness to rank 9~10 darks. But cheaper, that's all .
Edit: They are remarkably good on Tanky characters who stack HP to 34k+ aswell, so maybe rank 9~10 darks is good ( or better) on CWs/TRs but G.Tenes are better on GF/GWFs.
I also showed you with math. If you choose to ignore it that's something else...your numbers were vague and imaginary, my numbers were accurate. And my build is focused on making my health "capped" everytime i proc my tene hence why i never noticed if they depened on currentor total HP.
Prove my math wrong and then talk, don't just throw butthurt accusations .
Here is the comparisons again, keep repeating yourself...that's all you got it seems.
Your math starts off wrong in the fact that you think in PVP you can do 5000 damage a second as a senti GWF...
Exactly, they are equal in effectiveness to rank 9~10 darks. But cheaper, that's all .
But they are not actually cheaper, that is just the highest price people are willing to pay.
for arguments sake lets say that have a 10% drop rate from boxes (in my experience the actual % is much lower).
you need 16 lessers for 1 greater, at 10% drop rate that's 160 keys needed for a greater. 160 * 125 zen per key = 20,000 zen * 350 AD per zen = 7 MILLION AD per 1 greater tenebrous. That is excluding the ward cost for fusing. R10 value cannot be calculated as those are farmed and require no set price to be gotten, however I have seen multiple R10's for sale for around 5 mil, which is more than people will pay for Tene's but less than a Tene actually costs to create.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Your math starts off wrong in the fact that you think in PVP you can do 5000 damage a second as a senti GWF...
Make calculation with 1000, 2000 or even 500. you get same result . ( Don;t forget i didn't take in mind critical strike/severity, which can make you deal more than 5000 in one second)
I took a big number to simplify the calculation process, if you lower your base damage your Dark enchantment theory is even weaker. :cool:
Your math starts off wrong in the fact that you think in PVP you can do 5000 damage a second as a senti GWF...
But a GWF can easily do > 5000 damage over a 20 second period, probably well over triple that. Tene's merely frontload the damage and then your damage falls off after that point. Against players that know how to combat them they aren't a big deal. If you think they are a big deal maybe you should practice fighting against them more.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
i hae been testing darks 9. and my dps rly got higher.
i noticed the tenes burst is great to finish off dying targets, cws, and rogues. overall the darks aren't that bad.
this is what scares me, if tenes get that useless. what will bet he point of it? remember tenes are useless on pve already
make it a 2nd tranquil? another useless cash enchantment?
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
But a GWF can easily do > 5000 damage over a 20 second period, probably well over triple that. Tene's merely frontload the damage and then your damage falls off after that point. Against players that know how to combat them they aren't a big deal. If you think they are a big deal maybe you should practice fighting against them more.
Again, I dont mean to sound condecending here but do you even know how tene works yourself?!
its NOT a 20 sec ICD, its a SERVERSIDE CD, meaning you CAN and WILL get back to back tene procs. You can get 14 procs within 1 second on combat time. YOu have a 50% cahnce for the CD to be 10 seconds or less. Its not about 5000 damage over 20 seconds. Thats a PVE DPS calculator and you just proved what we all know.
i hae been testing darks 9. and my dps rly got higher.
i noticed the tenes burst is great to finish off dying targets, cws, and rogues. overall the darks aren't that bad.
this is what scares me, if tenes get that useless. what will bet he point of it? remember tenes are useless on pve already
make it a 2nd tranquil? another useless cash enchantment?
Of course your DPS went up, thats how its always been, thats part of the teneb fallacy though, its not about DPS its about burst.
If you REALLY wanna test Tenes go DL some type of combat tracker, then play a PVP match (multiple for real testing) and post your results about how much % of your damage the entire pvp match came from tenes.
Last time I did this I was averaging OVER 30% in every match. If you TRULY want to min/max this is the most accurate way of determining damage.
You are almost never standing still attacking players for long periods of time. Even a GWF vs GWF match involves kiting. If you play a DPS class, chances are you burst a target down within 8 seconds as a group and then move to the next person. Either way, there are LOADS of time you are NOT attacking thus resetting your tene procs AND allowing for back to back procs due to the serverside CD issue.
Make calculation with 1000, 2000 or even 500. you get same result . ( Don;t forget i didn't take in mind critical strike/severity, which can make you deal more than 5000 in one second)
I took a big number to simplify the calculation process, if you lower your base damage your Dark enchantment theory is even weaker. :cool:
And where are you getting 30% mitigation if arm pen is negating 21% of this?
I'll expand on this with your numbers. 100,000*(.3-.21) = 91,000, not the 84,<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you got.
It still only takes a full sent GWF ~3 seconds to deal 5k, he deals 5k instantly with an encounter crit. Even based on 10-16 second CD you could still get > damage with R9 darks.
Tene's rarely ever proc more than once every 10-16 seconds, I have used them quite extensively.
Edit: Obviously they make up 30% of your damage because they frontload their damage and enemies only have a certain amount of HP. If you switched out those Tene's for R9's however you would still be just as effective.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Comments
With that in mind, I would STRONGLY implore you to consider a few aspects in changing this enchant.
I have run the math on these suggestions/considerations and this will REALLY help balance the enchant.
1) With respect to dodge, this should NOT count as the proc and start the CD. If the attack was dodged, it should merely, NOT use the proc, and would be able to proc off the NEXT hit.
2) If one tenebrous enchant proc is deflected it should NOT mean ALL the other procs that hit off that attack are also deflected. Each Tene proc should have its own roll to be deflected.
3) Tenebrous Procs should NOT proc off DoT effects and only hit based of at-wills and encounter powers.
4) Since you are nerfing the overall damage based on those three factors above, I would HIGHLY suggest that you consider changing 1 aspect about how it calculates damage.
- Currently it is based on CURRENT HP. I would ask this to be changed to be based solely on BASE HP.
What is that? When you open up your character tab, and hover over your HP, you will see something like this:
HitPoints: 36,419 but when you hover over that with your mouse this shows up: (26,543 + 9,876) The BASE Hp is on the left followed by your modified additional HP from buffs and items. Using the base HP gives a constant damage multiplier regardless of health status.
What this would mean is that no character can alter the amount of Tenebrous damage they can do, its purely based on BASE hp so stacking radiants etc, wont affect the damage.
This is a pro and a con, at high HP, you will do LESS damage, and at LOW hp you will do more. Its steady.
4) With the above change AND the suggested decrease in damage changes you have proposed, I would suggest the CD be changed as well. Instead of a serverside 20 second CD, PLEASE change that to a 10 second HARD cd. This, combined with #3 allows for more steady DPS which helps the enchant fair better in PVE scenarios and is STILL good in PVP.
5) To continue the utility of this in PVE scenarios, if an AOE attack procs a tenebrous enchant, EACH target hit by the AoE Damage SHOULD be damaged also by the tenebrous enchant proc. This will boost its desire in the PVE crowd giving SOME PVPers an "out" who wish to sell because it is not a valuable enchant for both PVE and PVP.
6) With all these changes, some players will want to (and rightfully so) unsocket these enchants. Currently they cost around 230k each to unsocket. I would suggest making them cost the same as a Rank 7 (around 100-120k) to unsocket. This reduces the price to swap enchants out due to the nerf from 2 mil (with 7) to easily under 1 mil AD which is the equiv of $20. That is easily affordable by most players, especially those who have "BIS" gear. It comes with the territory.
All of these changes will HELP bring the enchant back inline. It will STILL be a very powerful enchant, STILL worth quite a bit of AD, and STILL desired now by a more diverse crowd. It promotes diversity and balance without breaking either one of those things.
1.7 mil vs 12+ mil for the tene...
Thats some easy math.
Its an inexpensive counter.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Some decent ideas. Too bad they're couched so rudely and probably won't ever be seriously considered for that reason. Internet anonymity takes customer entitlement to a whole new and ugly height.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You're not allowed to make sensible comments in this thread. Get back on the topic
- waaaah.. fundamentally flawded.. waaah!!1
Me and a TR can easily take down a senti...
There are ALOT of people who disagree with you that the only way to kill GWFs is with tene. Prone lock? Yes it helps a TON. Tene? No. It does help though.
I also agree that this made the GWF class harder to kill, but you also just took away a nice piece of their damage output from tene enchants.
I think the DR and deflect are a good idea overall, and yes the tanky classes get tankier, but they also lost ALOT of their damage (coming from a Sent GWF who used 7 GTEs) The DPS classes DIDNT lose alot of their damage honestly... There are several good non tene builds for TR and CWs, GFs will lose out some, although they can get high arp meaning not a big loss in dps.
If you have a problem with GWFs thats another issue. But for tenes, I think the changes are decent. I would modify them as I posted above though.
I am definitely not in the camp of nerf them to the ground. I think they should be balanced around rank 9-10 enchants. Is this proposed nerf too much. At initial glance it could be. But it is hard to say until you actually see it play out on preview. If they ram this through, it could get ugly. If they actually playtest it out and get real feedback, it might not turn out as bad.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
^ Completely agree.
Specifically the part about the dodging. It dodging wastes the proc, they are going to be too useless /:
We will accept challenges from any guild (preferably one that uses a lot of Tene's) and will fight them with no Tene's.
We have done quite a large number of GvG matches with many other guilds and as of yet have not lost, we do however use some tene's, I personally use 4 on my GF.
We have multiple players with recording capability and I will make sure to post matches in this thread.
If the forum complainers are correct that Tene's = Win against people without Tene's then this should be a cakewalk right? I am currently at work so if you'd like to set something up you can either post it here or mail me in game. @cribstaxxx
Maybe I'm wrong and we'll lose one, but vs. any team other than lemonade I very highly doubt it =P
Also please stack as many Tene's as you can, according to forums posters 30 tene's vs. no tene's should result in you winning 1000-50 or better.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
a CW killing my sentinel 1vs1? what a joke ^^. Crusher@esteena , look me up at gateway
VS a good tank, you can't kill them. CWs are an easy prey if they are alone.
Look at GCTRL videos, he tanked best of the sent GWFs/GFs in dragon 1 vs 1 and he is just a DC.
Make a video of this!!!
Don't need to, Sent GWFs are unkillable by CWs in 1 vs 1 situations. I'm nothing special
Agree with that part at least. You argue for a tenebrous nerf without even knowing how they work. I show with math that rank 10 darks a CW or TR will need to do less than 10k damage to outperform tenebrous, and you argue otherwise without even knowing how they work. God forbid someone isn't at full life, a user at half life only has to do 5k damage to another player before darks will be better than tenebrous if this nerf goes through... DEVS RETHINK THIS!!!
I also showed you with math. If you choose to ignore it that's something else...your numbers were vague and imaginary, my numbers were accurate. And my build is focused on making my health "capped" everytime i proc my tene hence why i never noticed if they depened on currentor total HP.
Prove my math wrong and then talk, don't just throw butthurt accusations
Here is the comparisons again, keep repeating yourself...that's all you got it seems.
Lets not get off topic about measuring Epeens here and who can or cannot 1v1. The DEVs have made it clear the nerf is coming, so hwo do you want to deal with it, spend your time whining about how it SHOULDNT be nerfed, or spend it talking about HOW to balance it with regards to what they have said they are addressing...
I think my quote above is a fair assessment that makes them a balanced enchant. BOTH for PVE and PVP.
Devs were on the verge of destroying the TR class until enough people spoke up about it, then they reverted most of the changes and the class' stealth mechanic remains intact. Just b/c they said they're going to throw around some ideas doesn't mean they're going to implement all or even any of these ideas for sure.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Exactly, they are equal in effectiveness to rank 9~10 darks. But cheaper, that's all
Edit: They are remarkably good on Tanky characters who stack HP to 34k+ aswell, so maybe rank 9~10 darks is good ( or better) on CWs/TRs but G.Tenes are better on GF/GWFs.
Your math starts off wrong in the fact that you think in PVP you can do 5000 damage a second as a senti GWF...
But they are not actually cheaper, that is just the highest price people are willing to pay.
for arguments sake lets say that have a 10% drop rate from boxes (in my experience the actual % is much lower).
you need 16 lessers for 1 greater, at 10% drop rate that's 160 keys needed for a greater. 160 * 125 zen per key = 20,000 zen * 350 AD per zen = 7 MILLION AD per 1 greater tenebrous. That is excluding the ward cost for fusing. R10 value cannot be calculated as those are farmed and require no set price to be gotten, however I have seen multiple R10's for sale for around 5 mil, which is more than people will pay for Tene's but less than a Tene actually costs to create.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Make calculation with 1000, 2000 or even 500. you get same result
I took a big number to simplify the calculation process, if you lower your base damage your Dark enchantment theory is even weaker. :cool:
But a GWF can easily do > 5000 damage over a 20 second period, probably well over triple that. Tene's merely frontload the damage and then your damage falls off after that point. Against players that know how to combat them they aren't a big deal. If you think they are a big deal maybe you should practice fighting against them more.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
i noticed the tenes burst is great to finish off dying targets, cws, and rogues. overall the darks aren't that bad.
this is what scares me, if tenes get that useless. what will bet he point of it? remember tenes are useless on pve already
make it a 2nd tranquil? another useless cash enchantment?
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Again, I dont mean to sound condecending here but do you even know how tene works yourself?!
its NOT a 20 sec ICD, its a SERVERSIDE CD, meaning you CAN and WILL get back to back tene procs. You can get 14 procs within 1 second on combat time. YOu have a 50% cahnce for the CD to be 10 seconds or less. Its not about 5000 damage over 20 seconds. Thats a PVE DPS calculator and you just proved what we all know.
tenes are HORRIBLE for PVE.
Of course your DPS went up, thats how its always been, thats part of the teneb fallacy though, its not about DPS its about burst.
If you REALLY wanna test Tenes go DL some type of combat tracker, then play a PVP match (multiple for real testing) and post your results about how much % of your damage the entire pvp match came from tenes.
Last time I did this I was averaging OVER 30% in every match. If you TRULY want to min/max this is the most accurate way of determining damage.
You are almost never standing still attacking players for long periods of time. Even a GWF vs GWF match involves kiting. If you play a DPS class, chances are you burst a target down within 8 seconds as a group and then move to the next person. Either way, there are LOADS of time you are NOT attacking thus resetting your tene procs AND allowing for back to back procs due to the serverside CD issue.
And where are you getting 30% mitigation if arm pen is negating 21% of this?
I'll expand on this with your numbers. 100,000*(.3-.21) = 91,000, not the 84,<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you got.
Got same result aswell when my friend parsed my sentinel.
Tene's rarely ever proc more than once every 10-16 seconds, I have used them quite extensively.
Edit: Obviously they make up 30% of your damage because they frontload their damage and enemies only have a certain amount of HP. If you switched out those Tene's for R9's however you would still be just as effective.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.