Your very own Alt CW which has pro gear (and I assume skills as well) barely scratched Gannicus in your premade and all it did when Gannicus was on him was to jump around helplessly waiting for the inevitable death, which happened quite a lot of times.
From what I saw, I'd say he has like 5% chance to solo kill Gannicus. GTE vs GTE, pro PvPer vs pro PvPer.
If you can solo Gannicus or other similarly good/geared GWFs, I'd be happy to see a video from you doing it, so I can learn from it.
3 steps to killing a gwf, regardless of gear (This includes gannicus)
Repel on tab.
Ice knife.
Eye of the storm.
Of course if you want to speed up the long drawn out process you'd also want a perfect vorpal and to debuff him with conduit/enfeeblement.
I dont get why ppl even try to value tenes and r10s with math and numbers in a pvp match.
U just cant calculate all the random stuff with tenes like doubleproccs or proccs on half health or proccs when u are cc'ing another player even when u wanna go for a kill on another one.
Tenes are just to random to calculate it via math.
My calculation took in consideration crit & crit severity + mitigation ( and ignoring base armor pen) and it showed that a tanky character will deal the same damage with tene GPF as another tank with vorpals + rank 10 darks.
trippysmurf also calculated how much less damage others will deal to GWFs after the nerf. as for squishies vs squishes, tene would win unless deflected.( which will be a rare occasion, since deflection is a percentage and tene procs are 100% every 20 secs, so in 20 seconds if i deal 20 hits to a target with 25% deflect chance, he will deflect 5 of these hits...could be the 5 hits in beginnin..could be 4 in beginning and 1 later..could be 3 in the middle and 2 in the end...so yeah, tene has less chance to be deflected than darks, sine darks are DPS and tenes are a 20 seconds burst damage.)
all of our calculations are theoretical and not accurate since we have made some parameters constant.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
3 steps to killing a gwf, regardless of gear (This includes gannicus)
Repel on tab.
Ice knife.
Eye of the storm.
Of course if you want to speed up the long drawn out process you'd also want a perfect vorpal and to debuff him with conduit/enfeeblement.
I'm not sure about why you'd put Repel on Mastery. Maybe I am missing something about Repel's mechanics. Also, Repel has a very lame bug these days - it stuns, but doesn't push, for some reason (reported in CW forums as well). This is not specific vs GWF, happens with other classes too. Might be the CC resistance enchant, might be not, have no idea.
Ice Knife is beast - when it hits. More often than not, the GWF will deflect it or pop unstoppable during the casting animation if they know what they are doing. Losing a daily might prove fatal for the CW.
These being said, I still wanna see some serious fights, at least 5-10 or so, between equally geared GWFs and CWs, PvP spec and PvP gear, BiS, near BiS, whatever.
I'm not saying it's impossible to win, everybody that has a CW knows how lucky crit bursts work, but IMO the CW will lose 90%+ of the matches.
I'm not sure about why you'd put Repel on Mastery. Maybe I am missing something about Repel's mechanics. Also, Repel has a very lame bug these days - it stuns, but doesn't push, for some reason (reported in CW forums as well). This is not specific vs GWF, happens with other classes too. Might be the CC resistance enchant, might be not, have no idea.
Ice Knife is beast - when it hits. More often than not, the GWF will deflect it or pop unstoppable during the casting animation if they know what they are doing. Losing a daily might prove fatal for the CW.
These being said, I still wanna see some serious fights, at least 5-10 or so, between equally geared GWFs and CWs, PvP spec and PvP gear, BiS, near BiS, whatever.
I'm not saying it's impossible to win, everybody that has a CW knows how lucky crit bursts work, but IMO the CW will lose 90%+ of the matches.
Kindly watch what happens when Gannicus meets Alt. It will happen quite a few times with similar outcomes.
Yes, I have already watched the video.
The repel bug you are referring to is resistance.
Classes naturally have the ability to resist attacks. Some more than others, I've noticed more CC resistance with the DC and GWF.
That being said, a CW can endlessly keep a GWF away by rotating between choke and repel, keep in mind this rotation does not deal enough damage to build the GWFs unstoppable enough to where it can be activated.
The reason I would put repel on tab is for shorter CD. (That means you'd likely be using GG t2 pvp gear)
However that strategy will likely only work in a 1v1 scenario and not in a GvG.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm not sure about why you'd put Repel on Mastery. Maybe I am missing something about Repel's mechanics. Also, Repel has a very lame bug these days - it stuns, but doesn't push, for some reason (reported in CW forums as well). This is not specific vs GWF, happens with other classes too. Might be the CC resistance enchant, might be not, have no idea.
Ice Knife is beast - when it hits. More often than not, the GWF will deflect it or pop unstoppable during the casting animation if they know what they are doing. Losing a daily might prove fatal for the CW.
These being said, I still wanna see some serious fights, at least 5-10 or so, between equally geared GWFs and CWs, PvP spec and PvP gear, BiS, near BiS, whatever.
I'm not saying it's impossible to win, everybody that has a CW knows how lucky crit bursts work, but IMO the CW will lose 90%+ of the matches.
Kindly watch what happens when Gannicus meets Alt. It will happen quite a few times with similar outcomes.
1. Repel on Mastery is soooo fun in PVP! Best way to 1v2 classes, especially melee types.
2. I need to start recording my CW v GWF duels. The only ones I have trouble with now are Tenny-Sents, but that may be changing soon. I'd say I win 90% (or more) of my matches against non-Tenny regen Sentinels. I know many other CWs who can, as well.
3. Someone please correct me on this, but does Deflect work if CCed? My strategy has been to wait for Unstoppable to cool-down, Enfeeble, Choke, IK. I believe Deflection doesn't count if CCed.
4. I'd say a strong advantage is the Severe Reaction feat + Stamina from last Sharandar boon. It makes you amazingly dodgy. There are better geared CWs in my guild that lose a lot to Sentinels because they do not have Severe Reaction.
Ok so out of all this math there still many things that haven't been taken into account. Even with the still skewed numbers R10's + vorpal is almost equal to tene's. When you add in the fact that in a PvP match you are 100% HP maybe 5% of the match Tene's drop below R10 + vorpal. When you add in the fact that high level pvp'ers are not stupid, and aren't going to stack all darks when they're well over the CW/TR ArP cap and instead use some azures that increases their crit from your scenario, which is also buffed again by your added severity, which is also buffed again by your added ArP...
Long story short: when all factors are taken into account along with the math you cannot disagree that R9's will output more damage than tene's in a pvp situation. Obviously this is not the case on training dummies but if you post another number from training dummies I'm going to facepalm b/c that proves absolutely nothing.
Especially after even ayroux had to admit that the CD was ~20 after multiple tests...
Tene is a pay enchant, everyone that has them had to pay an arm and a leg for them, that's why people don't like them. They are only useful in PvP and only for specific utility purposes (ignore DR/SF etc.)
Why should they not have those special properties when they are one of the most expensive items in the game and require a cash transaction to be gotten. Yes I understand that from the viewpoint of someone that can't afford them they are strong. But if you aren't a hardcore PvP'er and you aren't spending any money on gear do you really think this is going to change anything that happens currently in PvP?
I'm showing that while I enjoy the utility that tenebrous brings it's actually lower damage, why would I use them then? because I've already spent a TON of AD on them lol. Why shouldn't they have more utility than any other enchant?? They were the very first big ticket pay items, they don't exist anymore (unless you buy nightmare boxes) and you can achieve better damage output without them. So what did I pay for? Utility. What is cryptic going to strip from them? Utility. Why am I opposed to this? Seems fairly clear.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm showing that while I enjoy the utility that tenebrous brings it's actually lower damage, why would I use them then? because I've already spent a TON of AD on them lol. Why shouldn't they have more utility than any other enchant?? They were the very first big ticket pay items, they don't exist anymore (unless you buy nightmare boxes) and you can achieve better damage output without them. So what did I pay for? Utility. What is cryptic going to strip from them? Utility. Why am I opposed to this? Seems fairly clear.
Nightmare boxes no longer drop Tenebrous, only Plaguefire.
wait really? Are you sure about that? I have a bunch of those saved up... =/
Edit: I just looked one up on gateway AH and lesser tenebrous is still listed
I believe so. I hunted around for a link to this, but couldn't find it. Can anyone confirm this? I know they're still listed but I don't think they drop anymore.
I believe so. I hunted around for a link to this, but couldn't find it. Can anyone confirm this? I know they're still listed but I don't think they drop anymore.
I would think the fact that when keys went on sale we saw huge amounts of lessers up on AH would say they are still available, not 100% on this though. I opened some boxes but only Dark Forest (owlbear on 20th box =D)
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I would think the fact that when keys went on sale we saw huge amounts of lessers up on AH would say they are still available, not 100% on this though. I opened some boxes but only Dark Forest (owlbear on 20th box =D)
I opened quite a few Nightmare boxes (maybe 50 or so), once keys went on sale. No Tenebrous dropped, but quite a few Plaguefire did. I do recall reading somewhere that Tennys would no longer drop...? Uncertain.
We've been looking at the Tenebrous Enchant some more, and we have a few changes in the works that should be going to preview pretty soon. We've talked about various ideas on what to do, but this is what we've decided to look at first:
Currently, Tenebrous ignores three things that it is not supposed to ignore: Damage Resistance (from AC and Defense, mostly), Deflection, and Shift-Dodges (like the Trickster Rogue roll and Control Wizard teleport). It will no longer ignore these three things. This means the damage it deals will go down as you'll now be able to resist the damage, Deflect stat won't be wasted against it, and if you time your Shifts right, you can avoid the damage.
We'll be monitoring the change on Preview, and looking to see if it has the desired result.
Thanks for all your feedback, everyone!
Now, I didn't read the previous 43 pages of the thread to see if this was answered (though I did read several pages of this discussion), but I'm wondering if tenebrous will be affected by debuffs that reduce the damage a target deals? I'm thinking along the lines of Break The Spirit or the debuff applied by the feytouched enchantment.
There's also foresight, which reduces incoming damage. Will this affect damage taken from tenebrous with the proposed changes?
If nothing else, I guess some PTR testing is in order .
Now, I didn't read the previous 43 pages of the thread to see if this was answered (though I did read several pages of this discussion), but I'm wondering if tenebrous will be affected by debuffs that reduce the damage a target deals? I'm thinking along the lines of Break The Spirit or the debuff applied by the feytouched enchantment.
There's also foresight, which reduces incoming damage. Will this affect damage taken from tenebrous with the proposed changes?
If nothing else, I guess some PTR testing is in order .
That's how it should be, tenes should work with debuffs/buffs aswell, but take a look at the changes in the past.
They normaly only do a poor nerf or fix and doesnt consider everything like in this case mitigation ect.
Just look at HV now 3 stacks MAX even with 4 cw's, that would be the same when u group up with 2 dc with miracle healer and only 1 set gives the extra heal.
- Yes a CW that knows what they are doing will crush 90% of GWFs out there.
- Same goes for a TR that knows how to cat and mouse...unless he is going against the troll build.
In regards to the tenes, Devs are going at this all wrong.
They should recognize the strength of SF and make Tenes the counter to SF. Bam done. Fixed. Case closed. You have now addressed two of the most popular and OP enchants in the game.
Regarding the math you folks were tossing around....head meets desk a few times.
Take into account softcaps and instead of looking at just darks you need to factor in radiants since they will benefit the most when you are sitting at a high crit and crit severity coupled with high ArP. Once you have negated the max mitigation you can with darks you are wasting a valuable slot that could contain a straight damage increase regardless of armor.
I'll take my CW 1v1 against any GF or GWF in the game. The key is knowing how to kite, how and when to dodge, and when to use your CCs. The biggest counter to CWs are good TRs not fighters.
That's how it should be, tenes should work with debuffs/buffs aswell, but take a look at the changes in the past. They normaly only do a poor nerf or fix and doesnt consider everything like in this case mitigation ect.
Just look at HV now 3 stacks MAX even with 4 cw's, that would be the same when u group up with 2 dc with miracle healer and only 1 set gives the extra heal.
Exactly, they are just doing a "quick fix" without even thinking about game mechanics. No other enchantment damage can be deflected, to my knowledge all other necrotic damage pierces DR/SF etc as well as other damage types piercing partial like radiant, and even with all this added utility that they currently have regular enchants outperform them when you aren't at full health (and even when you are with certain classes)
They are over nerfing them because players without them can only see the fact that they lose, and the person they lose too has tene's, so they come and complain about them. We will have threads about vorpal, R10's, soulforged, and every other strong enchant next if you go the route of nerfing whatever the player that can't afford or won't farm for views is stronger than what he has.
Everyone has the ability to get Tene's, there are tons for sale right now. There are also lots of lockboxes left to bring new ones into the game. This is a very poor decision that is directly negatively impacting the people who spent the most on the game, you should certainly take that into consideration devs.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
lol fisrt of all that was my bad cw, plus i do not build my cw for damage
in a premade i dont try to kill a gwf, there is not point if i dont have assistance, as it takes to long
however if i wanted to he would never even touch me and once my eye of the storm came up with my daily its good night
So your CW with what seemed to be tenes and perfects is bad? OK. Now the gatehouse shows all your enchant slots empty so I dunno what to say.
Problem is that basically each time Gannicus touched you you died in secs.
I am still having some troubles believing a CW can kill a GWF at equals levels of gear and PvP spec at least in 50% of the cases. Look, I killed some of the good geared guys myself, but up from some pillar when I opened on them without them even knowing etc. And it's OK, because I don't have R8+ enchants and perfects, and my build is PvE, so I don't have a lot of vain PvP expectations.
I'll be honest, from what I saw in what I played, I think only Desidus has a decent chance at destroying them, so props to him.
I'd still appreciate a video where there's CW vs GF or GWF 1 vs 1s. Something like gCtrl posted for his cleric stalling GTE guys should do.
So your CW with what seemed to be tenes and perfects is bad? OK. Now the gatehouse shows all your enchant slots empty so I dunno what to say.
Problem is that basically each time Gannicus touched you you died in secs.
I am still having some troubles believing a CW can kill a GWF at equals levels of gear and PvP spec at least in 50% of the cases. Look, I killed some of the good geared guys myself, but up from some pillar when I opened on them without them even knowing etc. And it's OK, because I don't have R8+ enchants and perfects, and my build is PvE, so I don't have a lot of vain PvP expectations.
I'll be honest, from what I saw in what I played, I think only Desidus has a decent chance at destroying them, so props to him.
I'd still appreciate a video where there's CW vs GF or GWF 1 vs 1s. Something like gCtrl posted for his cleric stalling GTE guys should do.
You have to continuously repel them when they come out of unstoppable and then kite them while they're in it until they drop out and you can repel again. Then once they're at about half health and your daily is up you wait for both their unstoppable to have just gone down and you to have an EotS proc and you unload ice knife and then all encounters and they should die.
Having repel on your bar is pretty poor in other situations though so I would just 2v1 them honestly.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
- Yes a CW that knows what they are doing will crush 90% of GWFs out there.
- Same goes for a TR that knows how to cat and mouse...unless he is going against the troll build.
In regards to the tenes, Devs are going at this all wrong.
They should recognize the strength of SF and make Tenes the counter to SF. Bam done. Fixed. Case closed. You have now addressed two of the most popular and OP enchants in the game.
Regarding the math you folks were tossing around....head meets desk a few times.
Take into account softcaps and instead of looking at just darks you need to factor in radiants since they will benefit the most when you are sitting at a high crit and crit severity coupled with high ArP. Once you have negated the max mitigation you can with darks you are wasting a valuable slot that could contain a straight damage increase regardless of armor.
The reason I used darks, is show me the CW or TR that can negate fully a GF or senti GWF, I know a few TRs who can negate sentis, but no CW can get that high.
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kaoswpBanned Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 144Bounty Hunter
CW has the tools to do exactly that, keep someone at arms length and wave their pudgy little hands in the air spouting some mumbo jumbo. I don't bother trying against a good CW in 1 v 1. I instead go look for someone else to kill or wait until that CW is distracted.
I get in melee range then it is lights out for the CW.
A little comparison between 1 vs 1 between GWF and a CW:
GWF got 15% run speed from class feature bravery + move speed from utility enchant. And he got sprint as the shift mechanic.
CW got move speed from utility and 3 dodges.
GW got alot of CC abilities. GWF got unstoppable, which can be activated even when you are CCed ( unless you are iceknifed on the floor).
GWF can interrupt CW with Roar, push you back and roots you for a moment interrupting your current attack and it has a very nice range. Followed by Flourish ( a moderate stun) not to mention crecendo.
So, i see a poor lil CW, i sprint ..Roar..Flourish..IBS.. and he will be lucky to make it out with 15% HP left. Or just wait till CW dodge around like a pro and then repeat your rotation.
CW cant 1 vs 1 sentinel, he can stall him for a while but can't kill him thats for sure. Eventually the CW is always dead.
IMPORTANT: This thread is NOT to debate IF the enchant should be re-worked but HOW they should in light of the following post.
With that in mind, I would STRONGLY implore you to consider a few aspects in changing this enchant.
I have run the math on these suggestions/considerations and this will REALLY help balance the enchant.
1) With respect to dodge, this should NOT count as the proc and start the CD. If the attack was dodged, it should merely, NOT use the proc, and would be able to proc off the NEXT hit.
2) If one tenebrous enchant proc is deflected it should NOT mean ALL the other procs that hit off that attack are also deflected. Each Tene proc should have its own roll to be deflected.
3) Tenebrous Procs should NOT proc off DoT effects and only hit based of at-wills and encounter powers.
4) Since you are nerfing the overall damage based on those three factors above, I would HIGHLY suggest that you consider changing 1 aspect about how it calculates damage.
- Currently it is based on CURRENT HP. I would ask this to be changed to be based solely on BASE HP.
What is that? When you open up your character tab, and hover over your HP, you will see something like this:
HitPoints: 36,419 but when you hover over that with your mouse this shows up: (26,543 + 9,876) The BASE Hp is on the left followed by your modified additional HP from buffs and items. Using the base HP gives a constant damage multiplier regardless of health status.
What this would mean is that no character can alter the amount of Tenebrous damage they can do, its purely based on BASE hp so stacking radiants etc, wont affect the damage.
This is a pro and a con, at high HP, you will do LESS damage, and at LOW hp you will do more. Its steady.
4) With the above change AND the suggested decrease in damage changes you have proposed, I would suggest the CD be changed as well. Instead of a serverside 20 second CD, PLEASE change that to a 10 second HARD cd. This, combined with #3 allows for more steady DPS which helps the enchant fair better in PVE scenarios and is STILL good in PVP.
5) To continue the utility of this in PVE scenarios, if an AOE attack procs a tenebrous enchant, EACH target hit by the AoE Damage SHOULD be damaged also by the tenebrous enchant proc. This will boost its desire in the PVE crowd giving SOME PVPers an "out" who wish to sell because it is not a valuable enchant for both PVE and PVP.
6) With all these changes, some players will want to (and rightfully so) unsocket these enchants. Currently they cost around 230k each to unsocket. I would suggest making them cost the same as a Rank 7 (around 100-120k) to unsocket. This reduces the price to swap enchants out due to the nerf from 2 mil (with 7) to easily under 1 mil AD which is the equiv of $20. That is easily affordable by most players, especially those who have "BIS" gear. It comes with the territory.
All of these changes will HELP bring the enchant back inline. It will STILL be a very powerful enchant, STILL worth quite a bit of AD, and STILL desired now by a more diverse crowd. It promotes diversity and balance without breaking either one of those things.
Exactly, they are just doing a "quick fix" without even thinking about game mechanics. No other enchantment damage can be deflected, to my knowledge all other necrotic damage pierces DR/SF etc as well as other damage types piercing partial like radiant, and even with all this added utility that they currently have regular enchants outperform them when you aren't at full health (and even when you are with certain classes)
They are over nerfing them because players without them can only see the fact that they lose, and the person they lose too has tene's, so they come and complain about them. We will have threads about vorpal, R10's, soulforged, and every other strong enchant next if you go the route of nerfing whatever the player that can't afford or won't farm for views is stronger than what he has.
Everyone has the ability to get Tene's, there are tons for sale right now. There are also lots of lockboxes left to bring new ones into the game. This is a very poor decision that is directly negatively impacting the people who spent the most on the game, you should certainly take that into consideration devs.
I thought this game was based off the D&D 4e system? In that system, the main form of mitigation comes from AC and your non-AC defenses which reduce the chance of attacks being able to hit you in the first place. Beyond that, you can have resistance to specific damage types or "resist all" which reduces the damage dealt by all damage types (assuming you are hit). Neither necrotic nor radiant damage pierces those forms of mitigation at least in that system. I realize this is a real-time implementation of a turn-based combat system and will necessarily have large differences, but I just don't see where the idea that resistances should be ignored by these damage types comes from.
Even as someone who's doled out their share of money for 10 total greater tenebrous across my characters, I'm glad to see this adjustment. To me it doesn't make sense for an enchant with an offensive property to scale proportionally with defensive stats (in this case, hp + regen stacking). It should be a trade-off. Today, tene gets around that philosophy by saying "hey, if i just stack defense/deflect/con/regen or run mega cheese perma build, then i'll be rewarded with periodic non-preventable burst damage!"
Personally, I want more fun, not more boring 4 or 5 man tene teams in pvp!
A little comparison between 1 vs 1 between GWF and a CW:
GWF got 15% run speed from class feature bravery + move speed from utility enchant. And he got sprint as the shift mechanic.
CW got move speed from utility and 3 dodges.
GW got alot of CC abilities. GWF got unstoppable, which can be activated even when you are CCed ( unless you are iceknifed on the floor).
GWF can interrupt CW with Roar, push you back and roots you for a moment interrupting your current attack and it has a very nice range. Followed by Flourish ( a moderate stun) not to mention crecendo.
So, i see a poor lil CW, i sprint ..Roar..Flourish..IBS.. and he will be lucky to make it out with 15% HP left. Or just wait till CW dodge around like a pro and then repeat your rotation.
CW cant 1 vs 1 sentinel, he can stall him for a while but can't kill him thats for sure. Eventually the CW is always dead.
Theory is great and all...but practicality prevails....80ft range ...never mind...back to the tenes debate!
Seeing as everyone runs SF...make tenes damage thru SF. Make it useless unless someone is under the influence of SF.
A direct counter to another OP enchant everyone uses. How do I know it is OP?
Because everyone on both sides of the match turn dark purple!
Theory is great and all...but practicality prevails....80ft range ...never mind...back to the tenes debate!
Seeing as everyone runs SF...make tenes damage thru SF. Make it useless unless someone is under the influence of SF.
A direct counter to another OP enchant everyone uses. How do I know it is OP?
Because everyone on both sides of the match turn dark purple!
Actually barkshield counters tenebrous, ( the initial procs atleast) but there is a counter to this counter ( counterception )
And since PvP is about burst damage, not about how much damage you will build up on X target in X time, is what gives tenebrous superiority. Also because it scales with your HP, so is good for your if you are making survive ability build... dark enchants could be better if you aren't stacking alot of HP. It is really hard to calculate the exact numbers of dark vs tene because there are tons of parameters that can sometimes make rank 10 darks have the edge and sometimes tene have the edge also take in account that armor pen get diminishing returns after 2.5k. Best thing is run ACT Parser after the nerf and compare ( if you can afford the unslotting process xD)
About CW vs sent GWF, if a CW can beat 1 vs 1 a sent GWF..the sent GWF should delete his character :P.
I thought this game was based off the D&D 4e system? In that system, the main form of mitigation comes from AC and your non-AC defenses which reduce the chance of attacks being able to hit you in the first place. Beyond that, you can have resistance to specific damage types or "resist all" which reduces the damage dealt by all damage types (assuming you are hit). Neither necrotic nor radiant damage pierces those forms of mitigation at least in that system. I realize this is a real-time implementation of a turn-based combat system and will necessarily have large differences, but I just don't see where the idea that resistances should be ignored by these damage types comes from.
Even as someone who's doled out their share of money for 10 total greater tenebrous across my characters, I'm glad to see this adjustment. To me it doesn't make sense for an enchant with an offensive property to scale proportionally with defensive stats (in this case, hp + regen stacking). It should be a trade-off. Today, tene gets around that philosophy by saying "hey, if i just stack defense/deflect/con/regen or run mega cheese perma build, then i'll be rewarded with periodic non-preventable burst damage!"
Personally, I want more fun, not more boring 4 or 5 man tene teams in pvp!
Comments
3 steps to killing a gwf, regardless of gear (This includes gannicus)
Repel on tab.
Ice knife.
Eye of the storm.
Of course if you want to speed up the long drawn out process you'd also want a perfect vorpal and to debuff him with conduit/enfeeblement.
My calculation took in consideration crit & crit severity + mitigation ( and ignoring base armor pen) and it showed that a tanky character will deal the same damage with tene GPF as another tank with vorpals + rank 10 darks.
trippysmurf also calculated how much less damage others will deal to GWFs after the nerf. as for squishies vs squishes, tene would win unless deflected.( which will be a rare occasion, since deflection is a percentage and tene procs are 100% every 20 secs, so in 20 seconds if i deal 20 hits to a target with 25% deflect chance, he will deflect 5 of these hits...could be the 5 hits in beginnin..could be 4 in beginning and 1 later..could be 3 in the middle and 2 in the end...so yeah, tene has less chance to be deflected than darks, sine darks are DPS and tenes are a 20 seconds burst damage.)
all of our calculations are theoretical and not accurate since we have made some parameters constant.
I'm not sure about why you'd put Repel on Mastery. Maybe I am missing something about Repel's mechanics. Also, Repel has a very lame bug these days - it stuns, but doesn't push, for some reason (reported in CW forums as well). This is not specific vs GWF, happens with other classes too. Might be the CC resistance enchant, might be not, have no idea.
Ice Knife is beast - when it hits. More often than not, the GWF will deflect it or pop unstoppable during the casting animation if they know what they are doing. Losing a daily might prove fatal for the CW.
These being said, I still wanna see some serious fights, at least 5-10 or so, between equally geared GWFs and CWs, PvP spec and PvP gear, BiS, near BiS, whatever.
I'm not saying it's impossible to win, everybody that has a CW knows how lucky crit bursts work, but IMO the CW will lose 90%+ of the matches.
BTW, the video I was referring is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njjWfW5tFg4
Kindly watch what happens when Gannicus meets Alt. It will happen quite a few times with similar outcomes.
Yes, I have already watched the video.
The repel bug you are referring to is resistance.
Classes naturally have the ability to resist attacks. Some more than others, I've noticed more CC resistance with the DC and GWF.
That being said, a CW can endlessly keep a GWF away by rotating between choke and repel, keep in mind this rotation does not deal enough damage to build the GWFs unstoppable enough to where it can be activated.
The reason I would put repel on tab is for shorter CD. (That means you'd likely be using GG t2 pvp gear)
However that strategy will likely only work in a 1v1 scenario and not in a GvG.
1. Repel on Mastery is soooo fun in PVP! Best way to 1v2 classes, especially melee types.
2. I need to start recording my CW v GWF duels. The only ones I have trouble with now are Tenny-Sents, but that may be changing soon. I'd say I win 90% (or more) of my matches against non-Tenny regen Sentinels. I know many other CWs who can, as well.
3. Someone please correct me on this, but does Deflect work if CCed? My strategy has been to wait for Unstoppable to cool-down, Enfeeble, Choke, IK. I believe Deflection doesn't count if CCed.
4. I'd say a strong advantage is the Severe Reaction feat + Stamina from last Sharandar boon. It makes you amazingly dodgy. There are better geared CWs in my guild that lose a lot to Sentinels because they do not have Severe Reaction.
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Long story short: when all factors are taken into account along with the math you cannot disagree that R9's will output more damage than tene's in a pvp situation. Obviously this is not the case on training dummies but if you post another number from training dummies I'm going to facepalm b/c that proves absolutely nothing.
Especially after even ayroux had to admit that the CD was ~20 after multiple tests...
Tene is a pay enchant, everyone that has them had to pay an arm and a leg for them, that's why people don't like them. They are only useful in PvP and only for specific utility purposes (ignore DR/SF etc.)
Why should they not have those special properties when they are one of the most expensive items in the game and require a cash transaction to be gotten. Yes I understand that from the viewpoint of someone that can't afford them they are strong. But if you aren't a hardcore PvP'er and you aren't spending any money on gear do you really think this is going to change anything that happens currently in PvP?
I'm showing that while I enjoy the utility that tenebrous brings it's actually lower damage, why would I use them then? because I've already spent a TON of AD on them lol. Why shouldn't they have more utility than any other enchant?? They were the very first big ticket pay items, they don't exist anymore (unless you buy nightmare boxes) and you can achieve better damage output without them. So what did I pay for? Utility. What is cryptic going to strip from them? Utility. Why am I opposed to this? Seems fairly clear.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Nightmare boxes no longer drop Tenebrous, only Plaguefire.
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wait really? Are you sure about that? I have a bunch of those saved up... =/
Edit: I just looked one up on gateway AH and lesser tenebrous is still listed
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I believe so. I hunted around for a link to this, but couldn't find it. Can anyone confirm this? I know they're still listed but I don't think they drop anymore.
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I would think the fact that when keys went on sale we saw huge amounts of lessers up on AH would say they are still available, not 100% on this though. I opened some boxes but only Dark Forest (owlbear on 20th box =D)
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I opened quite a few Nightmare boxes (maybe 50 or so), once keys went on sale. No Tenebrous dropped, but quite a few Plaguefire did. I do recall reading somewhere that Tennys would no longer drop...? Uncertain.
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lol fisrt of all that was my bad cw, plus i do not build my cw for damage
in a premade i dont try to kill a gwf, there is not point if i dont have assistance, as it takes to long
however if i wanted to he would never even touch me and once my eye of the storm came up with my daily its good night
Now, I didn't read the previous 43 pages of the thread to see if this was answered (though I did read several pages of this discussion), but I'm wondering if tenebrous will be affected by debuffs that reduce the damage a target deals? I'm thinking along the lines of Break The Spirit or the debuff applied by the feytouched enchantment.
There's also foresight, which reduces incoming damage. Will this affect damage taken from tenebrous with the proposed changes?
If nothing else, I guess some PTR testing is in order
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That's how it should be, tenes should work with debuffs/buffs aswell, but take a look at the changes in the past.
They normaly only do a poor nerf or fix and doesnt consider everything like in this case mitigation ect.
Just look at HV now 3 stacks MAX even with 4 cw's, that would be the same when u group up with 2 dc with miracle healer and only 1 set gives the extra heal.
- Same goes for a TR that knows how to cat and mouse...unless he is going against the troll build.
In regards to the tenes, Devs are going at this all wrong.
They should recognize the strength of SF and make Tenes the counter to SF. Bam done. Fixed. Case closed. You have now addressed two of the most popular and OP enchants in the game.
Regarding the math you folks were tossing around....head meets desk a few times.
Take into account softcaps and instead of looking at just darks you need to factor in radiants since they will benefit the most when you are sitting at a high crit and crit severity coupled with high ArP. Once you have negated the max mitigation you can with darks you are wasting a valuable slot that could contain a straight damage increase regardless of armor.
I personally think tenes are a crutch.
- Netherstorm
Exactly, they are just doing a "quick fix" without even thinking about game mechanics. No other enchantment damage can be deflected, to my knowledge all other necrotic damage pierces DR/SF etc as well as other damage types piercing partial like radiant, and even with all this added utility that they currently have regular enchants outperform them when you aren't at full health (and even when you are with certain classes)
They are over nerfing them because players without them can only see the fact that they lose, and the person they lose too has tene's, so they come and complain about them. We will have threads about vorpal, R10's, soulforged, and every other strong enchant next if you go the route of nerfing whatever the player that can't afford or won't farm for views is stronger than what he has.
Everyone has the ability to get Tene's, there are tons for sale right now. There are also lots of lockboxes left to bring new ones into the game. This is a very poor decision that is directly negatively impacting the people who spent the most on the game, you should certainly take that into consideration devs.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
So your CW with what seemed to be tenes and perfects is bad? OK. Now the gatehouse shows all your enchant slots empty so I dunno what to say.
Problem is that basically each time Gannicus touched you you died in secs.
I am still having some troubles believing a CW can kill a GWF at equals levels of gear and PvP spec at least in 50% of the cases. Look, I killed some of the good geared guys myself, but up from some pillar when I opened on them without them even knowing etc. And it's OK, because I don't have R8+ enchants and perfects, and my build is PvE, so I don't have a lot of vain PvP expectations.
I'll be honest, from what I saw in what I played, I think only Desidus has a decent chance at destroying them, so props to him.
I'd still appreciate a video where there's CW vs GF or GWF 1 vs 1s. Something like gCtrl posted for his cleric stalling GTE guys should do.
You have to continuously repel them when they come out of unstoppable and then kite them while they're in it until they drop out and you can repel again. Then once they're at about half health and your daily is up you wait for both their unstoppable to have just gone down and you to have an EotS proc and you unload ice knife and then all encounters and they should die.
Having repel on your bar is pretty poor in other situations though so I would just 2v1 them honestly.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
The reason I used darks, is show me the CW or TR that can negate fully a GF or senti GWF, I know a few TRs who can negate sentis, but no CW can get that high.
I get in melee range then it is lights out for the CW.
GWF got 15% run speed from class feature bravery + move speed from utility enchant. And he got sprint as the shift mechanic.
CW got move speed from utility and 3 dodges.
GW got alot of CC abilities. GWF got unstoppable, which can be activated even when you are CCed ( unless you are iceknifed on the floor).
GWF can interrupt CW with Roar, push you back and roots you for a moment interrupting your current attack and it has a very nice range. Followed by Flourish ( a moderate stun) not to mention crecendo.
So, i see a poor lil CW, i sprint ..Roar..Flourish..IBS.. and he will be lucky to make it out with 15% HP left. Or just wait till CW dodge around like a pro and then repeat your rotation.
CW cant 1 vs 1 sentinel, he can stall him for a while but can't kill him thats for sure. Eventually the CW is always dead.
Back to the point. Tenebrous enchants...
I thought this game was based off the D&D 4e system? In that system, the main form of mitigation comes from AC and your non-AC defenses which reduce the chance of attacks being able to hit you in the first place. Beyond that, you can have resistance to specific damage types or "resist all" which reduces the damage dealt by all damage types (assuming you are hit). Neither necrotic nor radiant damage pierces those forms of mitigation at least in that system. I realize this is a real-time implementation of a turn-based combat system and will necessarily have large differences, but I just don't see where the idea that resistances should be ignored by these damage types comes from.
Even as someone who's doled out their share of money for 10 total greater tenebrous across my characters, I'm glad to see this adjustment. To me it doesn't make sense for an enchant with an offensive property to scale proportionally with defensive stats (in this case, hp + regen stacking). It should be a trade-off. Today, tene gets around that philosophy by saying "hey, if i just stack defense/deflect/con/regen or run mega cheese perma build, then i'll be rewarded with periodic non-preventable burst damage!"
Personally, I want more fun, not more boring 4 or 5 man tene teams in pvp!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Theory is great and all...but practicality prevails....80ft range ...never mind...back to the tenes debate!
Seeing as everyone runs SF...make tenes damage thru SF. Make it useless unless someone is under the influence of SF.
A direct counter to another OP enchant everyone uses. How do I know it is OP?
Because everyone on both sides of the match turn dark purple!
Actually barkshield counters tenebrous, ( the initial procs atleast) but there is a counter to this counter ( counterception
And since PvP is about burst damage, not about how much damage you will build up on X target in X time, is what gives tenebrous superiority. Also because it scales with your HP, so is good for your if you are making survive ability build... dark enchants could be better if you aren't stacking alot of HP. It is really hard to calculate the exact numbers of dark vs tene because there are tons of parameters that can sometimes make rank 10 darks have the edge and sometimes tene have the edge also take in account that armor pen get diminishing returns after 2.5k. Best thing is run ACT Parser after the nerf and compare ( if you can afford the unslotting process xD)
About CW vs sent GWF, if a CW can beat 1 vs 1 a sent GWF..the sent GWF should delete his character :P.
Pretty much 100%