Got same result aswell when my friend parsed my sentinel.
All the Anti Tene nerf crowd NEED to go do this to see for themselves.
All these math #s are pure speculation unless you actually TRACK the numbers for yourself during COMBAT, you wont really know the tru effect of tenebs.
You CANT do this on a dummy or in PVE because its been proven tenebs are BAD DPS. The question isnt about DPS its about total damage.
If you run 6-7 GTEs and your total damage from tenebs is <20% in a pvp match ill be floored! If you run 4 of them, well thats almost half of 7 so youll probably be in the teens on average.
Make calculation with 1000, 2000 or even 500. you get same result . ( Don;t forget i didn't take in mind critical strike/severity, which can make you deal more than 5000 in one second)
I took a big number to simplify the calculation process, if you lower your base damage your Dark enchantment theory is even weaker. :cool:
Then let's go with 1000, here's your real math not the bad math you are doing.
1000 damage over 20 seconds = 20000 damage.
with arm pen, they are left with 9%, so 20000 *.91 = 18200
with tenebrous, they still have 30%, so 20000 * .7 = 14000 + 8792 tenebrous damage = 22,792
Numbers change a lot, and it helps if you actually know how to do math. Now your math has been proven to be incorrect, I rest my case. Don't listen to this idiot devs.
And you can't account for your crit strike and severity when you are talking dps, as it's an average dps with those already calculated in...
All the Anti Tene nerf crowd NEED to go do this to see for themselves.
All these math #s are pure speculation unless you actually TRACK the numbers for yourself during COMBAT, you wont really know the tru effect of tenebs.
You CANT do this on a dummy or in PVE because its been proven tenebs are BAD DPS. The question isnt about DPS its about total damage.
If you run 6-7 GTEs and your total damage from tenebs is <20% in a pvp match ill be floored! If you run 4 of them, well thats almost half of 7 so youll probably be in the teens on average.
Just do it for yourself and see.
These numbers are skewed b/c of the fact that you only need to do a set amount of damage in a set amount of time to kill a player. If it is really true that Tene's are so overpowered that they need nerfed then a full team of tene users could beat a full team of non tene users every time right??
Challenge us then with full tene team and we'll see how OP this enchant is. Otherwise it's just speculation based on flawed numbers. Something that may sound OP on paper can be garbage when viewed in gameplay and vice versa.
Your offensive stats are garbage, you're building full tank, obviously the tenebrous enchant is going to make up 30% of your damage. Drop R9 Darks and azure's in there and you will do very similar damage without the Tene's.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It still only takes a full sent GWF ~3 seconds to deal 5k, he deals 5k instantly with an encounter crit. Even based on 10-16 second CD you could still get > damage with R9 darks.
Tene's rarely ever proc more than once every 10-16 seconds, I have used them quite extensively.
Edit: Obviously they make up 30% of your damage because they frontload their damage and enemies only have a certain amount of HP. If you switched out those Tene's for R9's however you would still be just as effective.
If you add 7 Dark 9s, you get 1820 more arp. Well on Con stacked GWFs you already have 15% arp though that alone. 1820 arp = about 15% DR ignored.
So your now at 30% DR ignored as opposed to 15%. Not only is MOSt of that added ARP wasted on Trs and CWs, its only a max of 15% damage boost on tanky targets.
So you deal 5k damage in 3 seconds due to an encounter? Well 15% bonus = 5750. So you gained 750 damage from ALL your rank 9s.
How much does ONE tene hit for? 900-1k+? So 1 tene = 7 Dark 9s... Ill take the tene thanks :P
Again, I dont mean to sound condecending here but do you even know how tene works yourself?!
its NOT a 20 sec ICD, its a SERVERSIDE CD, meaning you CAN and WILL get back to back tene procs. You can get 14 procs within 1 second on combat time. YOu have a 50% cahnce for the CD to be 10 seconds or less. Its not about 5000 damage over 20 seconds. Thats a PVE DPS calculator and you just proved what we all know.
tenes are HORRIBLE for PVE.
Of course your DPS went up, thats how its always been, thats part of the teneb fallacy though, its not about DPS its about burst.
If you REALLY wanna test Tenes go DL some type of combat tracker, then play a PVP match (multiple for real testing) and post your results about how much % of your damage the entire pvp match came from tenes.
Last time I did this I was averaging OVER 30% in every match. If you TRULY want to min/max this is the most accurate way of determining damage.
You are almost never standing still attacking players for long periods of time. Even a GWF vs GWF match involves kiting. If you play a DPS class, chances are you burst a target down within 8 seconds as a group and then move to the next person. Either way, there are LOADS of time you are NOT attacking thus resetting your tene procs AND allowing for back to back procs due to the serverside CD issue.
never ever saw my tenes proc like that EVER. and i use them for a long time.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Then let's go with 1000, here's your real math not the bad math you are doing.
1000 damage over 20 seconds = 20000 damage.
with arm pen, they are left with 9%, so 20000 *.91 = 18200
with tenebrous, they still have 30%, so 20000 * .7 = 14000 + 8792 tenebrous damage = 22,792
Numbers change a lot, and it helps if you actually know how to do math. Now your math has been proven to be incorrect, I rest my case. Don't listen to this idiot devs.
And you can't account for your crit strike and severity when you are talking dps, as it's an average dps with those already calculated in...
Make calculation with 1000, 2000 or even 500. you get same result . ( Don;t forget i didn't take in mind critical strike/severity, which can make you deal more than 5000 in one second)
I took a big number to simplify the calculation process, if you lower your base damage your Dark enchantment theory is even weaker. :cool:
Like i said , same results. Tenebrous wins you have just proven yourself wrong on your own xD.
These numbers are skewed b/c of the fact that you only need to do a set amount of damage in a set amount of time to kill a player. If it is really true that Tene's are so overpowered that they need nerfed then a full team of tene users could beat a full team of non tene users every time right??
Challenge us then with full tene team and we'll see how OP this enchant is. Otherwise it's just speculation based on flawed numbers. Something that may sound OP on paper can be garbage when viewed in gameplay and vice versa.
Your offensive stats are garbage, you're building full tank, obviously the tenebrous enchant is going to make up 30% of your damage. Drop R9 Darks and azure's in there and you will do very similar damage without the Tene's.
The numbers are always skewed hence why you need to go run ACT or another version of combat tracker IN PVP to see how much of your damage is from Tenes.
If a team with weaker enchants beats a team with stronger enchants that doesnt mean the enchants are the issue, your "challenge" proves nothing in that you could and may very well be a better team.
You could make the same fallacious argument saying R9s are better than R10! OMG face us in a premade with all R10s and well only use 9s and see who wins....
Does not prove a thing about the enchant itself.
How is REAL combat parsing "flawed numbers" If 6 offensive enchants make up 30% of your total damage output in pvp, thats pretty broken.
Im not talking about TOTAL damage output in the match and saying well in match 1 I did XXXXXdamage and in match 2 with darks I did XXXXX+1! Look darks are better!
Im saying go TRACK pvp for a few matches and then go on the PTR, slot your darks, figure the damage boost you gain from that, ADD that % of damage to your AT WILL and ENCOUNTER DAMAGE, THEN compare to Tenes.
It wont be a 30% damage boost from even 7 Rank 10 Darks.
Then let's go with 1000, here's your real math not the bad math you are doing.
1000 damage over 20 seconds = 20000 damage.
with arm pen, they are left with 9%, so 20000 *.91 = 18200
with tenebrous, they still have 30%, so 20000 * .7 = 14000 + 8792 tenebrous damage = 22,792
Numbers change a lot, and it helps if you actually know how to do math. Now your math has been proven to be incorrect, I rest my case. Don't listen to this idiot devs.
And you can't account for your crit strike and severity when you are talking dps, as it's an average dps with those already calculated in...
What about crit chance? What about vorpal? What about factoring this into other classes that can't achieve 40k HP and have higher base offensive stats? What about your ability to use different more powerful gear b/c you aren't only concerned with HP for Tene enchant?
I mean you based this on the GWF having 7 Tene's and >40k HP, that doesn't happen. You need more defensive slots to above 40k. And even if you could maybe .01% of GWF have THAT good of gear.
If you were to also factor in <100% HP the vast majority of the time ArP would win out in a 20 second period...
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Now say you do average 5k dps on a character, then in 20 seconds you are talking 100k damage right.
Again reduced by 9% = 91k
With Tenebrous, 30% reduction so 70,000 + the 8792 you hit with for tenebrous, so 78792
So you're telling me that as a senti GWF you do 5k damage a second, and would do nearly 13k more damage over a 20 second period with darks rather than tenebrous, and you're calling for a tenebrous nerf?
Challenge us then with full tene team and we'll see how OP this enchant is. Otherwise it's just speculation based on flawed numbers. Something that may sound OP on paper can be garbage when viewed in gameplay and vice versa.
To be scientific about it, after the match, you would swap gear and fight again. Assuming no internal bias would affect gameplay, which might be a big assumption, you can compare scores each match to see how big of a difference tene makes.
What about crit chance? What about vorpal? What about factoring this into other classes that can't achieve 40k HP and have higher base offensive stats? What about your ability to use different more powerful gear b/c you aren't only concerned with HP for Tene enchant?
I mean you based this on the GWF having 7 Tene's and >40k HP, that doesn't happen. You need more defensive slots to above 40k. And even if you could maybe .01% of GWF have THAT good of gear.
Again if you're talking dps, vorpal and crit are already calculated in. And I was just using the numbers he gave to show how bad he is at math, he's trying to convince the devs to nerf tenebrous and can't even do a decent calculation. I already told people earlier in this thread that the minimum nerf to their effectiveness against the squishiest of classes will be a 25% hit, vs tank characters it will be an 85-90% damage nerf to tenebrous. I even gave numbers to show how much damage would have to be done to the squishies and to the tank classes to make up for the damage difference...
Going back to the tank example, with rank 10 darks you will have to do 10k damage to them in 20 seconds before darks are more effective than tenebrous after this proposed nerf. 10k is a joke... And that's assuming you're at full life which is not likely to be the case. Go down to half life and you have to do 5k damage to them. I mean come on...
We've got a guy saying he can do 5k dps as a senti GWF, imagine what a dps geared CW or TR can do =P
Now say you do average 5k dps on a character, then in 20 seconds you are talking 100k damage right.
Again reduced by 9% = 91k
With Tenebrous, 30% reduction so 70,000 + the 8792 you hit with for tenebrous, so 78792
So you're telling me that as a senti GWF you do 5k damage a second, and would do nearly 13k more damage over a 20 second period with darks rather than tenebrous, and you're calling for a tenebrous nerf?
Please stop making fun of yourself, if you can deal 78k with tenebrous then you have to be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to put rank 10 darks to deal 91k. Since 78k Is an over kill already, and because these 78k can go through immunity and procced by damage over time while your 91k arent can be negated by soul forged and you have to constantly hitting your taget in order to achieve, like in my frist calculations, i said it is an over kill to slot rank 10 darks.
Now with more realistic numbers ( like 1k per second) you saw how vague your "lets slot dark 10s" theory is. Have a good day.
Edit: if you are talking about TRs and CWs, i have always seen tenebrous a waste on their lil HP anyways . All my calculation were based on a healthy character ( 35k HP+) hence why the ( 7500 tenebrous damage )
The numbers are always skewed hence why you need to go run ACT or another version of combat tracker IN PVP to see how much of your damage is from Tenes.
If a team with weaker enchants beats a team with stronger enchants that doesnt mean the enchants are the issue, your "challenge" proves nothing in that you could and may very well be a better team.
You could make the same fallacious argument saying R9s are better than R10! OMG face us in a premade with all R10s and well only use 9s and see who wins....
Does not prove a thing about the enchant itself.
How is REAL combat parsing "flawed numbers" If 6 offensive enchants make up 30% of your total damage output in pvp, thats pretty broken.
Im not talking about TOTAL damage output in the match and saying well in match 1 I did XXXXXdamage and in match 2 with darks I did XXXXX+1! Look darks are better!
Im saying go TRACK pvp for a few matches and then go on the PTR, slot your darks, figure the damage boost you gain from that, ADD that % of damage to your AT WILL and ENCOUNTER DAMAGE, THEN compare to Tenes.
It wont be a 30% damage boost from even 7 Rank 10 Darks.
If you can't see that the Tene's make up 30% of your damage because they frontload said damage and targets have only a set amount HP then logic is lost on you.
OF COURSE they are going to do 30% damage because fights are not constant and when there is fighting and your tene's go off they get their full damage out first giving your encounters/atwills less HP remaining to put out damage.
If you replace said Tene's with R9's, not all ArP lol, then the Crit/ArP that you gain will increase your damage output over the cooldown time of the tene's to about equal, and more in cases where the user has lower HP.
At the end of the day players that know how to fight against tene's can do just as well against players that use Tene's without using the Tene's themselves, that is my point. Which means that the enchant is not overpowered b/c all it takes is a change in playstyle to counter them.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It wont be a 30% damage boost from even 7 Rank 10 Darks.
Just a technicality, but if 30% of your damage is Tenebrous, then it boosted your damage by 42.86%. 15% more resist ignore isn't going to match that ever.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Again if you're talking dps, vorpal and crit are already calculated in. And I was just using the numbers he gave to show how bad he is at math, he's trying to convince the devs to nerf tenebrous and can't even do a decent calculation. I already told people earlier in this thread that the minimum nerf to their effectiveness against the squishiest of classes will be a 25% hit, vs tank characters it will be an 85-90% damage nerf to tenebrous. I even gave numbers to show how much damage would have to be done to the squishies and to the tank classes to make up for the damage difference...
Going back to the tank example, with rank 10 darks you will have to do 10k damage to them in 20 seconds before darks are more effective than tenebrous after this proposed nerf. 10k is a joke... And that's assuming you're at full life which is not likely to be the case. Go down to half life and you have to do 5k damage to them. I mean come on...
We've got a guy saying he can do 5k dps as a senti GWF, imagine what a dps geared CW or TR can do =P
So you are saying, that if i'm using tenebrous i can't crit my base damage anymore? what about my base crit severity ? It is a crit chance, and within 20 seconds, you can crit once..maybe twice.
Do the calculation again, with 1 k base damage, and make it crit twice. Tenebrous wins
To be scientific about it, after the match, you would swap gear and fight again. Assuming no internal bias would affect gameplay, which might be a big assumption, you can compare scores each match to see how big of a difference tene makes.
No, because the point is people are saying that the enchant itself is overpowered to the point it's ruining PvP and needs to be nerfed. If that is the case then teams that would have otherwise lost to us should be able to win against us with Tenebrous enchants. Otherwise the enchant is not OP as it can be easily countered without using that same enchant.
@trippy: Crit does matter and by extension vorpal. GWF generally has 24 con which means 14% ArP base, so they are going to use a few darks and then probably 4+ azure's giving them 6% or more bonus crit, then you have to add in another increase in damage if that character is using vorpal. That compounded with the fact that Tene's only perform at their stated effectiveness when at 100% HP (almost never in an ongoing PvP match) AND the fact that your math included a GWF with 7 tene's and ~42k HP which is not possible I don't believe. The ones with 7 Tene's generally have around 37-39k at most and are less tanky.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
If you can't see that the Tene's make up 30% of your damage because they frontload said damage and targets have only a set amount HP then logic is lost on you.
OF COURSE they are going to do 30% damage because fights are not constant and when there is fighting and your tene's go off they get their full damage out first giving your encounters/atwills less HP remaining to put out damage.
If you replace said Tene's with R9's, not all ArP lol, then the Crit/ArP that you gain will increase your damage output over the cooldown time of the tene's to about equal, and more in cases where the user has lower HP.
At the end of the day players that know how to fight against tene's can do just as well against players that use Tene's without using the Tene's themselves, that is my point. Which means that the enchant is not overpowered b/c all it takes is a change in playstyle to counter them.
Tene's frontload damage and THEREFORE targets die faster. You didnt finish your statement there.
YOur basically saying "because tenes kill someone so fast, you dont get to see the DPS increase from darks"
If you DONT replace them with Darks, crit isnt much better UNLESS you want to then run perfect vorpal which even then, 1% more in crit is only about a 1.3% increase in DPS. Sure you can get really nice crits, whats to stop some1 from running vorpal AND tenes?
Well, then your only talking about what 4 darks and 3 azure enchants? So 900 more crit MAX? well thats like 6-7% more crit right... So out of 100 encounters you will get 7 more of them crits at 130% crit severity.
Lets take that hypothetical:
5k base - (*2.3 critical) = 11.5k on a crit with perf vorp.
100 encounters -
Without Azure and assume 30% crit - 5k*70 = 350k+ 11.5*30= 695k in total damage on 100 encounter crits.
WITH 3 R10 azure AND 4 D10 Darks -
4 R10 darks = 1200 arp, thats about 10% damage boost ON HIGH DR targets.
so 5k - 5.5k now AND a crit = 12.65.
5.5k*63= 346k + 12.65k*37 = 468 = 814.
AFTER 100 encounters with RANK 10s, you have increased damage by 17% ASSUMING perfect vorpal with good crit.
100 encounters! and 17%? WITH a Perf Vorpal... Thats again not that much.
You added 500 damage to a base encounter though darks and you crit slightly more often. Versus tene where almsot every opponant you attack you get 1-2 stacks of procs?
See my previous math where i showed a typical encounter rotation tenes add about 20-40% damage boost PRE nerf.
So you are saying, that if i'm using tenebrous i can't crit my base damage anymore? what about my base crit severity ? It is a crit chance, and within 20 seconds, you can crit once..maybe twice.
Do the calculation again, with 1 k base damage, and make it crit twice. Tenebrous wins
And you say i'm bad at math xD.
God you guys are dumb. If you do 1k dps, that's 1k with crit included. Don't be such an idiot. DAMAGE PER SECOND INCLUDES CRITS IN THE CALCULATION. Wow I quit...
Just a technicality, but if 30% of your damage is Tenebrous, then it boosted your damage by 42.86%. 15% more resist ignore isn't going to match that ever.
Good catch, I forgot about the increase factor...
Which 30% total damage and an increase of 40% goes along very well with my previous math showing 1-2 stacks of procs per encounter cycle has on average an 80% chance to increase damage dealt by 40% and only a 20% chance to increase damage delt by 20%.
Plainly put.
IF TENES WERE NOT OP, WHY DO THE BEST PLAYERS ALL USE THEM? IF THEY ARE NOT OP, GOOD PLAYERS WOULD NOT BE WHINING ABOUT THEM BUT SELL THEM AND SWAP TO R9s+
IF 1 TENE SELLS FOR 2MIL+ YOU CAN EASILY BUY ALL RANK 9s right? SO GO DO IT IF ITS NO DIFFERENCE....
But If you do replace them with darks/azures you WILL see a DPS increase when fighting more than 1 enemy back to back, or with constant fighting.
Let me guess you were stomping a pug when you got those numbers? Lol of course you were b/c you had multiple quick combats where all your tene's procced and the target was dead.
Fight some opponents with tankiness and equal gear and darks/azure will perform equally as well as Tene's. We have multiple GWF's that have tried and confirmed, and GWF is one of the best possible classes to use tene's on. The gap would be even bigger on a TR or CW.
My point is that Tene's are already in line with R9's, they also cost almost the same as R9's. Therefore they are not overpowered and consequently do NOT need to be nerfed. I'm going home from work now so you guys can argue amongst yourselves until I get back on tomorrow...
If anyone wants proof that Tene's do not win matches hit me up in game: @cribstaxxx
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
God you guys are dumb. If you do 1k dps, that's 1k with crit included. Don't be such an idiot. DAMAGE PER SECOND INCLUDES CRITS IN THE CALCULATION. Wow I quit...
You seriously didn't read my post that you would be gaining crit chance by swapping out tene's and by extension gaining damage from bonus crit severity?
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Which 30% total damage and an increase of 40% goes along very well with my previous math showing 1-2 stacks of procs per encounter cycle has on average an 80% chance to increase damage dealt by 40% and only a 20% chance to increase damage delt by 20%.
Plainly put.
IF TENES WERE NOT OP, WHY DO THE BEST PLAYERS ALL USE THEM? IF THEY ARE NOT OP, GOOD PLAYERS WOULD NOT BE WHINING ABOUT THEM BUT SELL THEM AND SWAP TO R9s+
IF 1 TENE SELLS FOR 2MIL+ YOU CAN EASILY BUY ALL RANK 9s right? SO GO DO IT IF ITS NO DIFFERENCE....
Lol I use them because they pierce soulforged and watching the enemy DC heal for 5 seconds is very annoying. They also work nicely against ItC and Unstoppable. That is why I use them over R10's even though R10's give me MORE CONSISTENT DAMAGE. It's more a preference honestly, if SF wasn't used by EVERYONE and it didn't last 5 full seconds I would probably use R10's.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Lol I use them because they pierce soulforged and watching the enemy DC heal for 5 seconds is very annoying. They also work nicely against ItC and Unstoppable. That is why I use them over R10's even though R10's give me MORE CONSISTENT DAMAGE. It's more a preference honestly, if SF wasn't used by EVERYONE and it didn't last 5 full seconds I would probably use R10's.
I heard on good authority everyone was stacking barkshield/Con/regen, and since that counters tene completely, you should switch to R9s BRO!
God you guys are dumb. If you do 1k dps, that's 1k with crit included. Don't be such an idiot. DAMAGE PER SECOND INCLUDES CRITS IN THE CALCULATION. Wow I quit...
Ok, 1 more math test : For a 20 seconds test:
I do 1k damage per second, 2 of them critted with 50% severity
so (1000x18)+(2500x2)= 23000, lets say my taget has 30% mitigation. And i would deal 7500 damage from tene due to my 36k HP. So total damage is (23000+7500 )-9150= 21350.
With rank 10 darks, i get +21% armor pen. @50% crit severity.
so we still have our 23000 decreased by 9% ( 30-21) so we get 20910.
Now @ 100% crit severity.
1000x18 + (3000 x2) = 24000.
Reduced by 9% = 21840.
So , 21,350 from tene vs 21840 from rank 10 darks. @ 2x crit & 50 severity with tene , and @ 2x crits & 100% severity with rank 10 darks.
Same damage only if you slot rank 10 darks + perfect vorpal. ( note that i didn't take in account that i can debuf mitigation with plague fire incase of tene also i didn't take in account that soulforged can proc and negate all of your dark enchant damage, which doesn't work against tene necro damage).
Lol I use them because they pierce soulforged and watching the enemy DC heal for 5 seconds is very annoying. They also work nicely against ItC and Unstoppable. That is why I use them over R10's even though R10's give me MORE CONSISTENT DAMAGE. It's more a preference honestly, if SF wasn't used by EVERYONE and it didn't last 5 full seconds I would probably use R10's.
It helps with those pesky dodgers, obliterates GF shields, ignores DR powerful buffs from clerics, and I am sure I am missing others. Not to mention you can pretty much count on it at the start of the fight. It is not like it takes forever to proc at the start of a fight. If a CW is kiting, you can pretty much count on it once you get on top of him. That rogue hiding in stealth, pop him one as soon as he comes out. That GWF back capper kiting to regen, sit and wait for him and pop him hard again the moment he steps back on the point, watch him run away again.
If you go full darks, sure you get a ton of ArPen, probably around 20% with r10s. Much of it most likely wasted on low armor targets. The spot where it nets you the most, IE DR capped targets, Tenebrous net you more.
Of course if you are using a squishier build, Tenebrous lose a lot the power. But if you go survival build for any class other than DC, tenebrous are far and above the better option.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I'll try to break this down for the simple minds in this thread with a few real world examples.
Scenario 1 now: CW vs CW
Let's say a TR or CW has 26-28k life, fairly typical for a geared player. Let's go with a CW vs a CW for arguments sake, and later I'll go GWF vs GWF, squishiest and tankiest classes.
So a CW running tenebrous, let's split the difference and call it 27k life. That would be 5670 tenebrous damage every 20 seconds as tenebrous is now. Let's say you have rank 10 darks and the CW miraculously has enough armor that you are negating it all with darks. You're talking 21% more damage at that point, impossible but we'll call it that. I'm not even going to go over 100 seconds or some stupid calculation like that, because a fight between CWs will not last 20 seconds, not in the least. All that matters is when one person's HP hits 0. How much damage would it take with 21% to make up for that tenebrous damage? x*.21=5670, so x = 27000. Guess what, both of these CWs die at the same time. Now in reality, the CW with tenebrous will win, because one with darks will not see a 21% damage increase vs this character no matter if they add crit, power, arm pen, or any combination. Also tenebrous cannot currently be dodged whereas other skills can be. This is also kind of assuming CW with tenebrous got the first hit and all procced for full damage, which will not always be the case... The winner of this fight almost comes down to first hit and dodging but definitely favors the tenebrous user right now.
Scenario 1 after nerf:
With tenebrous able to be dodged, reduced by the defense that the CW with darks will have left, and able to be deflected. A properly geared CW with tenebrous will still negate all the defense most CWs have, so edge to tenebrous, but with deflection, dark gets the edge. Now if it's normal enchants like azure or radiant instead of just dark, this guy gets a nice damage boost and definitely, definitely wins over the tenebrous CW.
Scenario 2 now: CW vs GWF
Again with tenebrous you're talking at best 5670 damage from the CW. Let's assume that the fight goes on for 20 seconds, although if you read this thread a senti GWF is unkillable unless there is at least 2 people, so how about take a look at that for a balance issue devs? When below half health these guys are getting back say 20k life give or take every 30 seconds from regen alone. Now we already know he has to do 27k damage in 20 seconds for dark 10s to be more effective than tenebrous. This is easily done unless the GWF is in unstoppable. Can you do 27k to a GWF in 20 seconds? I would say without unstoppable absolutely, but with it, it will be close. Guess what that means, they're actually pretty even right now devs.
Scenario 2 after nerf: CW vs GWF
Now let's take the same numbers, except this time against a senti GWF with their mitigation and deflection, you are talking about a 70% reduction in tenebrous damage. For GWFs with 50% resist and 40% (note some are higher but I'm using numbers to make the math easy) deflection, you're talking an overall nerf to tenebrous of 50% just from defense, then when you calculate in deflect as well, you're talking 30% of normal damage, a 70% NERF vs senti GWF. And this is without factoring in unstoppable... So let's take that nice number of 5670 and it becomes 1701, again this will be tenebrous damage without the GWF being in unstoppable, with it, it will be even less. At that point how much damage needs to be done before darks are better than tenebrous? 1701/.21 = 8100 damage. That's 8100 damage in 20 seconds devs... A CW could do that while the GWF was in unstoppable the entire time. lol
You just buffed the self proclaimed "unkillable in 1v1" GWF.
Scenario 3: GWF vs CW
Let's say he has 42k hp and 4 tenebrous, that's 5040 tenebrous damage. He's going to negate any CW defense with arm pen, and let's say the CW has 8% deflect, at 50% severity you're talking 4838 tenebrous damage after the nerf. So GWF vs CW, this isn't much of a nerf for GWFs at all.
Scenario 4: GWF vs GWF
So now the tenebrous damage is 5040, after the nerf it would be 1512, again not counting unstoppable. See math above for 70% reduction. Now if you're talking 4 enchants we'll say it's roughly 12% damage increase from darks instead. That means after the patch again, discounting unstoppable, a GWF would have to do 12,600 damage (1512/.12) in that 20 seconds before darks are better than tenebrous. Now if the GWFs are at half life, they have to do 6,300 before darks are better.
Conclusion:
Tenebrous nerf = giant buff to a class that calls themselves unkillable in 1v1, GWF!!! So they barely lose damage vs CWs, while CWs lose a TON of damage vs them. Rethink how you are doing this nerf devs... You're making GWFs that much harder to kill while making it almost as easy for them to kill other classes...
I think what really needs to be looked at here devs is how these enchants affect different classes. You can't go by one or people complaining under certain situations, so I tried to provide numbers from each end of the spectrum for high end pvp.
But If you do replace them with darks/azures you WILL see a DPS increase when fighting more than 1 enemy back to back, or with constant fighting.
Let me guess you were stomping a pug when you got those numbers? Lol of course you were b/c you had multiple quick combats where all your tene's procced and the target was dead.
Fight some opponents with tankiness and equal gear and darks/azure will perform equally as well as Tene's. We have multiple GWF's that have tried and confirmed, and GWF is one of the best possible classes to use tene's on. The gap would be even bigger on a TR or CW.
My point is that Tene's are already in line with R9's, they also cost almost the same as R9's. Therefore they are not overpowered and consequently do NOT need to be nerfed. I'm going home from work now so you guys can argue amongst yourselves until I get back on tomorrow...
If anyone wants proof that Tene's do not win matches hit me up in game: @cribstaxxx
If they are so in line...
then why does your entire guild wear them and not 9's ?
Lol I use them because they pierce soulforged and watching the enemy DC heal for 5 seconds is very annoying. They also work nicely against ItC and Unstoppable. That is why I use them over R10's even though R10's give me MORE CONSISTENT DAMAGE. It's more a preference honestly, if SF wasn't used by EVERYONE and it didn't last 5 full seconds I would probably use R10's.
Oh so you admit you only use them because of the exploitable feature...
You say fighting a cleric who is healing with Soulforge is annoying... ( which a cleric healing is part of the game derp )
But you ignore the fact Tene's are annoying to 99.8 % of the player base...but you have no problem with that.
Comments
All the Anti Tene nerf crowd NEED to go do this to see for themselves.
All these math #s are pure speculation unless you actually TRACK the numbers for yourself during COMBAT, you wont really know the tru effect of tenebs.
You CANT do this on a dummy or in PVE because its been proven tenebs are BAD DPS. The question isnt about DPS its about total damage.
If you run 6-7 GTEs and your total damage from tenebs is <20% in a pvp match ill be floored! If you run 4 of them, well thats almost half of 7 so youll probably be in the teens on average.
Just do it for yourself and see.
Then let's go with 1000, here's your real math not the bad math you are doing.
1000 damage over 20 seconds = 20000 damage.
with arm pen, they are left with 9%, so 20000 *.91 = 18200
with tenebrous, they still have 30%, so 20000 * .7 = 14000 + 8792 tenebrous damage = 22,792
Numbers change a lot, and it helps if you actually know how to do math. Now your math has been proven to be incorrect, I rest my case. Don't listen to this idiot devs.
And you can't account for your crit strike and severity when you are talking dps, as it's an average dps with those already calculated in...
These numbers are skewed b/c of the fact that you only need to do a set amount of damage in a set amount of time to kill a player. If it is really true that Tene's are so overpowered that they need nerfed then a full team of tene users could beat a full team of non tene users every time right??
Challenge us then with full tene team and we'll see how OP this enchant is. Otherwise it's just speculation based on flawed numbers. Something that may sound OP on paper can be garbage when viewed in gameplay and vice versa.
Your offensive stats are garbage, you're building full tank, obviously the tenebrous enchant is going to make up 30% of your damage. Drop R9 Darks and azure's in there and you will do very similar damage without the Tene's.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
If you add 7 Dark 9s, you get 1820 more arp. Well on Con stacked GWFs you already have 15% arp though that alone. 1820 arp = about 15% DR ignored.
So your now at 30% DR ignored as opposed to 15%. Not only is MOSt of that added ARP wasted on Trs and CWs, its only a max of 15% damage boost on tanky targets.
So you deal 5k damage in 3 seconds due to an encounter? Well 15% bonus = 5750. So you gained 750 damage from ALL your rank 9s.
How much does ONE tene hit for? 900-1k+? So 1 tene = 7 Dark 9s... Ill take the tene thanks :P
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Like i said , same results. Tenebrous wins
The numbers are always skewed hence why you need to go run ACT or another version of combat tracker IN PVP to see how much of your damage is from Tenes.
If a team with weaker enchants beats a team with stronger enchants that doesnt mean the enchants are the issue, your "challenge" proves nothing in that you could and may very well be a better team.
You could make the same fallacious argument saying R9s are better than R10! OMG face us in a premade with all R10s and well only use 9s and see who wins....
Does not prove a thing about the enchant itself.
How is REAL combat parsing "flawed numbers" If 6 offensive enchants make up 30% of your total damage output in pvp, thats pretty broken.
Im not talking about TOTAL damage output in the match and saying well in match 1 I did XXXXXdamage and in match 2 with darks I did XXXXX+1! Look darks are better!
Im saying go TRACK pvp for a few matches and then go on the PTR, slot your darks, figure the damage boost you gain from that, ADD that % of damage to your AT WILL and ENCOUNTER DAMAGE, THEN compare to Tenes.
It wont be a 30% damage boost from even 7 Rank 10 Darks.
What about crit chance? What about vorpal? What about factoring this into other classes that can't achieve 40k HP and have higher base offensive stats? What about your ability to use different more powerful gear b/c you aren't only concerned with HP for Tene enchant?
I mean you based this on the GWF having 7 Tene's and >40k HP, that doesn't happen. You need more defensive slots to above 40k. And even if you could maybe .01% of GWF have THAT good of gear.
If you were to also factor in <100% HP the vast majority of the time ArP would win out in a 20 second period...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Again reduced by 9% = 91k
With Tenebrous, 30% reduction so 70,000 + the 8792 you hit with for tenebrous, so 78792
So you're telling me that as a senti GWF you do 5k damage a second, and would do nearly 13k more damage over a 20 second period with darks rather than tenebrous, and you're calling for a tenebrous nerf?
To be scientific about it, after the match, you would swap gear and fight again. Assuming no internal bias would affect gameplay, which might be a big assumption, you can compare scores each match to see how big of a difference tene makes.
Again if you're talking dps, vorpal and crit are already calculated in. And I was just using the numbers he gave to show how bad he is at math, he's trying to convince the devs to nerf tenebrous and can't even do a decent calculation. I already told people earlier in this thread that the minimum nerf to their effectiveness against the squishiest of classes will be a 25% hit, vs tank characters it will be an 85-90% damage nerf to tenebrous. I even gave numbers to show how much damage would have to be done to the squishies and to the tank classes to make up for the damage difference...
Going back to the tank example, with rank 10 darks you will have to do 10k damage to them in 20 seconds before darks are more effective than tenebrous after this proposed nerf. 10k is a joke... And that's assuming you're at full life which is not likely to be the case. Go down to half life and you have to do 5k damage to them. I mean come on...
We've got a guy saying he can do 5k dps as a senti GWF, imagine what a dps geared CW or TR can do =P
Please stop making fun of yourself, if you can deal 78k with tenebrous then you have to be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to put rank 10 darks to deal 91k. Since 78k Is an over kill already, and because these 78k can go through immunity and procced by damage over time while your 91k arent can be negated by soul forged and you have to constantly hitting your taget in order to achieve, like in my frist calculations, i said it is an over kill to slot rank 10 darks.
Now with more realistic numbers ( like 1k per second) you saw how vague your "lets slot dark 10s" theory is. Have a good day.
Edit: if you are talking about TRs and CWs, i have always seen tenebrous a waste on their lil HP anyways
If you can't see that the Tene's make up 30% of your damage because they frontload said damage and targets have only a set amount HP then logic is lost on you.
OF COURSE they are going to do 30% damage because fights are not constant and when there is fighting and your tene's go off they get their full damage out first giving your encounters/atwills less HP remaining to put out damage.
If you replace said Tene's with R9's, not all ArP lol, then the Crit/ArP that you gain will increase your damage output over the cooldown time of the tene's to about equal, and more in cases where the user has lower HP.
At the end of the day players that know how to fight against tene's can do just as well against players that use Tene's without using the Tene's themselves, that is my point. Which means that the enchant is not overpowered b/c all it takes is a change in playstyle to counter them.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Just a technicality, but if 30% of your damage is Tenebrous, then it boosted your damage by 42.86%. 15% more resist ignore isn't going to match that ever.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
So you are saying, that if i'm using tenebrous i can't crit my base damage anymore? what about my base crit severity ? It is a crit chance, and within 20 seconds, you can crit once..maybe twice.
Do the calculation again, with 1 k base damage, and make it crit twice. Tenebrous wins
And you say i'm bad at math xD.
No, because the point is people are saying that the enchant itself is overpowered to the point it's ruining PvP and needs to be nerfed. If that is the case then teams that would have otherwise lost to us should be able to win against us with Tenebrous enchants. Otherwise the enchant is not OP as it can be easily countered without using that same enchant.
@trippy: Crit does matter and by extension vorpal. GWF generally has 24 con which means 14% ArP base, so they are going to use a few darks and then probably 4+ azure's giving them 6% or more bonus crit, then you have to add in another increase in damage if that character is using vorpal. That compounded with the fact that Tene's only perform at their stated effectiveness when at 100% HP (almost never in an ongoing PvP match) AND the fact that your math included a GWF with 7 tene's and ~42k HP which is not possible I don't believe. The ones with 7 Tene's generally have around 37-39k at most and are less tanky.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Tene's frontload damage and THEREFORE targets die faster. You didnt finish your statement there.
YOur basically saying "because tenes kill someone so fast, you dont get to see the DPS increase from darks"
If you DONT replace them with Darks, crit isnt much better UNLESS you want to then run perfect vorpal which even then, 1% more in crit is only about a 1.3% increase in DPS. Sure you can get really nice crits, whats to stop some1 from running vorpal AND tenes?
Well, then your only talking about what 4 darks and 3 azure enchants? So 900 more crit MAX? well thats like 6-7% more crit right... So out of 100 encounters you will get 7 more of them crits at 130% crit severity.
Lets take that hypothetical:
5k base - (*2.3 critical) = 11.5k on a crit with perf vorp.
100 encounters -
Without Azure and assume 30% crit - 5k*70 = 350k+ 11.5*30= 695k in total damage on 100 encounter crits.
WITH 3 R10 azure AND 4 D10 Darks -
4 R10 darks = 1200 arp, thats about 10% damage boost ON HIGH DR targets.
so 5k - 5.5k now AND a crit = 12.65.
5.5k*63= 346k + 12.65k*37 = 468 = 814.
AFTER 100 encounters with RANK 10s, you have increased damage by 17% ASSUMING perfect vorpal with good crit.
100 encounters! and 17%? WITH a Perf Vorpal... Thats again not that much.
You added 500 damage to a base encounter though darks and you crit slightly more often. Versus tene where almsot every opponant you attack you get 1-2 stacks of procs?
See my previous math where i showed a typical encounter rotation tenes add about 20-40% damage boost PRE nerf.
Its not comparison.
RUN a tracker for yourself and you will see....
God you guys are dumb. If you do 1k dps, that's 1k with crit included. Don't be such an idiot. DAMAGE PER SECOND INCLUDES CRITS IN THE CALCULATION. Wow I quit...
Good catch, I forgot about the increase factor...
Which 30% total damage and an increase of 40% goes along very well with my previous math showing 1-2 stacks of procs per encounter cycle has on average an 80% chance to increase damage dealt by 40% and only a 20% chance to increase damage delt by 20%.
Plainly put.
IF TENES WERE NOT OP, WHY DO THE BEST PLAYERS ALL USE THEM? IF THEY ARE NOT OP, GOOD PLAYERS WOULD NOT BE WHINING ABOUT THEM BUT SELL THEM AND SWAP TO R9s+
IF 1 TENE SELLS FOR 2MIL+ YOU CAN EASILY BUY ALL RANK 9s right? SO GO DO IT IF ITS NO DIFFERENCE....
Let me guess you were stomping a pug when you got those numbers? Lol of course you were b/c you had multiple quick combats where all your tene's procced and the target was dead.
Fight some opponents with tankiness and equal gear and darks/azure will perform equally as well as Tene's. We have multiple GWF's that have tried and confirmed, and GWF is one of the best possible classes to use tene's on. The gap would be even bigger on a TR or CW.
My point is that Tene's are already in line with R9's, they also cost almost the same as R9's. Therefore they are not overpowered and consequently do NOT need to be nerfed. I'm going home from work now so you guys can argue amongst yourselves until I get back on tomorrow...
If anyone wants proof that Tene's do not win matches hit me up in game: @cribstaxxx
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You seriously didn't read my post that you would be gaining crit chance by swapping out tene's and by extension gaining damage from bonus crit severity?
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Lol I use them because they pierce soulforged and watching the enemy DC heal for 5 seconds is very annoying. They also work nicely against ItC and Unstoppable. That is why I use them over R10's even though R10's give me MORE CONSISTENT DAMAGE. It's more a preference honestly, if SF wasn't used by EVERYONE and it didn't last 5 full seconds I would probably use R10's.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I heard on good authority everyone was stacking barkshield/Con/regen, and since that counters tene completely, you should switch to R9s BRO!
Ok, 1 more math test : For a 20 seconds test:
I do 1k damage per second, 2 of them critted with 50% severity
so (1000x18)+(2500x2)= 23000, lets say my taget has 30% mitigation. And i would deal 7500 damage from tene due to my 36k HP. So total damage is (23000+7500 )-9150= 21350.
With rank 10 darks, i get +21% armor pen. @50% crit severity.
so we still have our 23000 decreased by 9% ( 30-21) so we get 20910.
Now @ 100% crit severity.
1000x18 + (3000 x2) = 24000.
Reduced by 9% = 21840.
So , 21,350 from tene vs 21840 from rank 10 darks. @ 2x crit & 50 severity with tene , and @ 2x crits & 100% severity with rank 10 darks.
Same damage only if you slot rank 10 darks + perfect vorpal. ( note that i didn't take in account that i can debuf mitigation with plague fire incase of tene also i didn't take in account that soulforged can proc and negate all of your dark enchant damage, which doesn't work against tene necro damage).
Btw, i can give free math classes for you
It helps with those pesky dodgers, obliterates GF shields, ignores DR powerful buffs from clerics, and I am sure I am missing others. Not to mention you can pretty much count on it at the start of the fight. It is not like it takes forever to proc at the start of a fight. If a CW is kiting, you can pretty much count on it once you get on top of him. That rogue hiding in stealth, pop him one as soon as he comes out. That GWF back capper kiting to regen, sit and wait for him and pop him hard again the moment he steps back on the point, watch him run away again.
If you go full darks, sure you get a ton of ArPen, probably around 20% with r10s. Much of it most likely wasted on low armor targets. The spot where it nets you the most, IE DR capped targets, Tenebrous net you more.
Of course if you are using a squishier build, Tenebrous lose a lot the power. But if you go survival build for any class other than DC, tenebrous are far and above the better option.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Scenario 1 now: CW vs CW
Let's say a TR or CW has 26-28k life, fairly typical for a geared player. Let's go with a CW vs a CW for arguments sake, and later I'll go GWF vs GWF, squishiest and tankiest classes.
So a CW running tenebrous, let's split the difference and call it 27k life. That would be 5670 tenebrous damage every 20 seconds as tenebrous is now. Let's say you have rank 10 darks and the CW miraculously has enough armor that you are negating it all with darks. You're talking 21% more damage at that point, impossible but we'll call it that. I'm not even going to go over 100 seconds or some stupid calculation like that, because a fight between CWs will not last 20 seconds, not in the least. All that matters is when one person's HP hits 0. How much damage would it take with 21% to make up for that tenebrous damage? x*.21=5670, so x = 27000. Guess what, both of these CWs die at the same time. Now in reality, the CW with tenebrous will win, because one with darks will not see a 21% damage increase vs this character no matter if they add crit, power, arm pen, or any combination. Also tenebrous cannot currently be dodged whereas other skills can be. This is also kind of assuming CW with tenebrous got the first hit and all procced for full damage, which will not always be the case... The winner of this fight almost comes down to first hit and dodging but definitely favors the tenebrous user right now.
Scenario 1 after nerf:
With tenebrous able to be dodged, reduced by the defense that the CW with darks will have left, and able to be deflected. A properly geared CW with tenebrous will still negate all the defense most CWs have, so edge to tenebrous, but with deflection, dark gets the edge. Now if it's normal enchants like azure or radiant instead of just dark, this guy gets a nice damage boost and definitely, definitely wins over the tenebrous CW.
Scenario 2 now: CW vs GWF
Again with tenebrous you're talking at best 5670 damage from the CW. Let's assume that the fight goes on for 20 seconds, although if you read this thread a senti GWF is unkillable unless there is at least 2 people, so how about take a look at that for a balance issue devs? When below half health these guys are getting back say 20k life give or take every 30 seconds from regen alone. Now we already know he has to do 27k damage in 20 seconds for dark 10s to be more effective than tenebrous. This is easily done unless the GWF is in unstoppable. Can you do 27k to a GWF in 20 seconds? I would say without unstoppable absolutely, but with it, it will be close. Guess what that means, they're actually pretty even right now devs.
Scenario 2 after nerf: CW vs GWF
Now let's take the same numbers, except this time against a senti GWF with their mitigation and deflection, you are talking about a 70% reduction in tenebrous damage. For GWFs with 50% resist and 40% (note some are higher but I'm using numbers to make the math easy) deflection, you're talking an overall nerf to tenebrous of 50% just from defense, then when you calculate in deflect as well, you're talking 30% of normal damage, a 70% NERF vs senti GWF. And this is without factoring in unstoppable... So let's take that nice number of 5670 and it becomes 1701, again this will be tenebrous damage without the GWF being in unstoppable, with it, it will be even less. At that point how much damage needs to be done before darks are better than tenebrous? 1701/.21 = 8100 damage. That's 8100 damage in 20 seconds devs... A CW could do that while the GWF was in unstoppable the entire time. lol
You just buffed the self proclaimed "unkillable in 1v1" GWF.
Scenario 3: GWF vs CW
Let's say he has 42k hp and 4 tenebrous, that's 5040 tenebrous damage. He's going to negate any CW defense with arm pen, and let's say the CW has 8% deflect, at 50% severity you're talking 4838 tenebrous damage after the nerf. So GWF vs CW, this isn't much of a nerf for GWFs at all.
Scenario 4: GWF vs GWF
So now the tenebrous damage is 5040, after the nerf it would be 1512, again not counting unstoppable. See math above for 70% reduction. Now if you're talking 4 enchants we'll say it's roughly 12% damage increase from darks instead. That means after the patch again, discounting unstoppable, a GWF would have to do 12,600 damage (1512/.12) in that 20 seconds before darks are better than tenebrous. Now if the GWFs are at half life, they have to do 6,300 before darks are better.
Conclusion:
Tenebrous nerf = giant buff to a class that calls themselves unkillable in 1v1, GWF!!! So they barely lose damage vs CWs, while CWs lose a TON of damage vs them. Rethink how you are doing this nerf devs... You're making GWFs that much harder to kill while making it almost as easy for them to kill other classes...
I think what really needs to be looked at here devs is how these enchants affect different classes. You can't go by one or people complaining under certain situations, so I tried to provide numbers from each end of the spectrum for high end pvp.
If they are so in line...
then why does your entire guild wear them and not 9's ?
Do you know how Tenebrous CD works? Because you keep referencing 20 seconds... where do you get 20 seconds? Its not a 20 second CD....
Oh so you admit you only use them because of the exploitable feature...
You say fighting a cleric who is healing with Soulforge is annoying... ( which a cleric healing is part of the game derp )
But you ignore the fact Tene's are annoying to 99.8 % of the player base...but you have no problem with that.
got it... Now we see why your mad.
See you after the nerf.