gtenes are high end gear look what ranks u can get for same cost g tene are not in **** 1k each section of the ah
it just don't tell you in your logs when your hit by 7 rank 10 enchantments or you would say that was op as well
I want to just say I was watching a bunch of 1 v 1 battles in a slight in-house we had arranged to watch a certain duo 1 v 1 but as the game progressed everyone got to playing.. Funny thing was the person on my team with not even a SINGLE Greater Tenebrous was beating everyone WITH Rank 8 Enchantments and a GREATER Vorpal.. Not even perfect enchantment. Nuff said, tbh I wont even be aiming for tenebrous enchantments after seeing all the crying id rather have stable + cheaper + better enchants lololol.
Signed,
Pestilence
Foundry Missions ;
By ; @pestilence149
Gladiators of Dhara (Easy) & (Hard)
ELIGIBLE FOR THE DAILY FOUNDRY REWARDS!
Search by Best : Name/Summary/Short-Code ; Gladiators
NW-DJJS7OWZI (For easy)
NW-DPT9I8RKF (For hard)
Any feedback and suggestions are welcome please enjoy!
It's not players fault for choosing an item that has been around that is BiS for your character. I don't see why everyone blames the player saying you had to know it was coming and its your fault for slotting them. The player was only picking the best choice for their build which i would do the same. There will always be a BiS item which people will gravitate to. Also you can't compare this is stalwart or high viz which are armor sets that don't even come close to the actual price paid for a tene enchant.
The amount of astral diamonds invested in these builds are enourmous so you can't just nerf them and say oh well. People have invested time and money getting these enchants and should be compensated, but the people who are to blame are the dev's for not fixing this sooner. Instead they waited and gave the player based the idea that they were here to stay. I only see two solutions: fix them so they don't proc through soulforge and dodge but are not mitigated by defense, or let everyone unslot them for free and vendor them to a NPC for the going rate of what a greater tene was before the mass hysteria. Cryptic should be the ones to blame for even letting this enchantment go live in the first place so they need to atone and make it up to the players that use them if this nerf goes live.
Holy HAMSTER, give this dude a cookie. +Vouch for every idea.
Edit; Not to mention the vendoring of Tenebrous enchantments if you all want them to be gone so badly plus free unslots to EVERYONE who has already unslotted these trying to flip them before losing their entire fortune.
Foundry Missions ;
By ; @pestilence149
Gladiators of Dhara (Easy) & (Hard)
ELIGIBLE FOR THE DAILY FOUNDRY REWARDS!
Search by Best : Name/Summary/Short-Code ; Gladiators
NW-DJJS7OWZI (For easy)
NW-DPT9I8RKF (For hard)
Any feedback and suggestions are welcome please enjoy!
The panic of the tenebrous users is understandable, you used to have an enchantment that literally goes through every defensive stat. Builds scaled very well with it, but now with the nerf it is as effective as a high level dark (9~10) which is ok IMO. Note that Devs didn't say anything about damage over time proccing tene, nor the immunity ignore. So that enchant is still worth slotting, unless you got rank 10 dark enchants ( which is an over kill IMO).
The panic of the tenebrous users is understandable, you used to have an enchantment that literally goes through every defensive stat. Builds scaled very well with it, but now with the nerf it is NOT as effective as a rank 5 dark which is stupid IMO. Note that Devs didn't say anything about damage over time proccing tene, nor the immunity ignore. So that enchant is not worth slotting, since it is beaten by rank 5 dark enchants ( which is HAMSTER IMO).
fixed this for you with real information, not propaganda. I already showed you the math on this.
Lets say i deal 5000 damage with every weapon swing, every 1 second.
With tene, i would deal 5000+7560 = 12560 damage , which would get reduced to 8792 due to 30% mitigation. for the rest of the 19 seconds, i would deal 5000*19 = 95000 reduced to 66500 due to 30% mitigation ( should be reduced to more due to deflection..) but lets keep it like that for now. So 8792 + 66500 = 75282.
With rank 10 darks, i would get 21% more damage from 7 of them. 35.72*2100^1.88/(1225500+2100^1.88) <---
So, i deal 5000 with every swing, every 1 second.
5000* 20 = 100,000 increased to 121,000...then reduced due to 30% mitigation to 84700 ( should be even lower number due to deflection).
So 75282 from tene , vs 84700 from rank 10 darks. I would still go for tene, since they are sufficient vs squihsy ones while i can already take down tanky ones with 2 vs 1 situations.
Bottom line is, it isn't worth it to slot rank 10 darks, it is an un needed over kill for squishies who can already die from tenes.
your math is imaginary numbers, rank 5 darks aren't better. only rank 9 ~ 10 are better. Look at the difference with rank 10 darks.
your math is imaginary numbers, rank 5 darks aren't better. only rank 9 ~ 10 are better. Look at the difference with rank 10 darks.
Esteena,
Your math is pretty accurate. People keep forgetting that PVP is NOT DPS and while in PVE the enchants AS IS are already worse than rank 5s... The changes proposed for pvp IMO is overkill however they are still easily BIS for pvp.
A typical rotation on my GF with frontline/bullrush/lungingstrike with 28.5% arp equiv (through arp and Dex) is on average as follows
Lets look at a typical GF encounter rotation.
2 Bull rush
2 lunge Strike
1 frontline surge
on average 3-4 at wills.
total duration: about 16 seconds.
Lets assign average values on these attacks. Out of 4 encounters lets also assume 1 crits and well even put it on the hardest hitting ability bullrush.
Bull rush - 5k
Lunge - 4k
Frontline - 3k
Bullrush (crit) - 8k
At wills- 1400 each
Total damage output: 26,400 without tene enchants.
Now heres where its interesting. Because of the way tene works and the 20 second serverside CD, there is an 80% chance in 16 seconds youll get TWO sets of CDs. Lets look at tene procs as the are currently.
32k hp * .03 *6(GF) = 5700
So ONE set of procs takes you from 26400 TO 32,160 and TWO sets 37,800 which again, high chance of this happening.
So with Tene currently on a full rotation you are adding about 21.6% to 43.18% damage boost.
Lets compare that with R10 darks. Which arguably, wouldnt even increase my damage against CW or TRs but lets say it does since im already at 28.5%.
300*6 = 1800. 1800 ARP = ROUGHLY 15% damage boost. I can get 3600 power which would then equate about a 13% damage boost in attacks.
so 13-15% versus 21.6-43% damage? Hands down Tene by DOUBLE.
Now lets compare POST nerf.
Well like I said I have 28.5% arp equiv. Lets assume attacking a person with 50% DR. my effective arp drops them to 20%. Or just for fun, lets say I have NO ARP or maybe my stats dont even count towards tene enchants.
Well now you but my damage boost in HALF. Ontop of that even lets assume that im attacking a GWF whose got 33% deflect so 1/3 of my tene do 50% damage ontop of that!
5760 for 6 tenes, 50% = 2880 so 480 each, 2 get deflected so 240 for two of them,
240+240+(480*4)= 2400.
Lets take the encounter rotation above.
26400 with 2400-4800(2 procs) STILL equals a 9% damage boost to a 18% damage boost if you get 2 procs.
remember the math from the R10s? Well it was a 13% if power and we were arguing a 15% with arp.
And ALL of this was a WORST case scenario right? 2 deflects, 50% DR. NO debuff target with NO arp factoring in?
well now your getting a 9-18% damage boost versus a 13-15% damage boost. Not that bad... and STILL arguably better.
Now add arp and debuffs and your looking at a target with easily 30% Dr or less, attack a target with low deflect and youll do WAY more damage to a target than R10s can possibly do.
5700 = 950 each proc, lets say 1 deflects and the others are 30% DR.
30% DR = 665 each. 1 deflects so 332.
665*5+332=3657 damage and two sets = 7300.
So now your getting a 14% to 28% damage boost on your encounter damage... EVEN 1 set of procs puts you equiv to R10 darks and thats with ONE deflect and 30% DR. TWO sets of procs gets you DOUBLE the damage boost of R10s.
If its STILL easily comparable to R10s... POST nerf, what does that tell you about PRE nerf enchants?
What everyone is failing to see is the fact that necrotic damage has always pierced resistances and necrotic damage other than tene's will continue to do so. No other enchantment damage in the game can be deflected. No other enchantment loses it's CD when it was dodged and didn't have the chance to proc anyway.
The point I'm making is that their "fixes" go directly against the basic fundamentals of the game just to appease the crying people in this thread that are unable to win against them.
They shouldn't do damage when dodged, that is a legitimate bug and something that should be fixed. The other fixes are to appease bad players...
Edit: @ayroux: those damage numbers would be much greater without tene's, my previous GF build without them easily hit 10-12k lunging and bull charges. You are also forgetting to add the 100's if not 1000's of stat point loss if you use that many tene's. And last but not least you are doing the equation as if the GF consistantly has 100% HP which is not the case more often than it is the case.
Your equation is put in your "perfect world" scenario, the reality is that factoring in stat loss and the fact that you are rarely at 100% HP brings Tene's in line with R8's or so I would imagine, and that's how they are currently, imagine if you cut that damage in half vs. tanky opponents.
Tene's give damage every 20 seconds, that's rarely more than 1 time per fight unless it's a 1v1. So on a DPS character you get ~6300 burst damage (30k hp) for stat losses of well over 1000, on a tank you might get ~7350 (35k HP). My GF gets ~4260 as I only run 4 tene's and this damage rarely every is the reason I kill someone. I use it to counter soulforged/itc etc.
Those values are at 100% HP again, so most likely you will get 50-75% of that number at best. That is less than any encounter. Even my restoring strike on my GWF in full tank gear and no offensive stats can hit for 5k.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Your math is pretty accurate. People keep forgetting that PVP is NOT DPS and while in PVE the enchants AS IS are already worse than rank 5s... The changes proposed for pvp IMO is overkill however they are still easily BIS for pvp.
A typical rotation on my GF with frontline/bullrush/lungingstrike with 28.5% arp equiv (through arp and Dex) is on average as follows
Lets look at a typical GF encounter rotation.
2 Bull rush
2 lunge Strike
1 frontline surge
on average 3-4 at wills.
total duration: about 16 seconds.
Lets assign average values on these attacks. Out of 4 encounters lets also assume 1 crits and well even put it on the hardest hitting ability bullrush.
Bull rush - 5k
Lunge - 4k
Frontline - 3k
Bullrush (crit) - 8k
At wills- 1400 each
Total damage output: 26,400 without tene enchants.
Now heres where its interesting. Because of the way tene works and the 20 second serverside CD, there is an 80% chance in 16 seconds youll get TWO sets of CDs. Lets look at tene procs as the are currently.
32k hp * .03 *6(GF) = 5700
So ONE set of procs takes you from 26400 TO 32,160 and TWO sets 37,800 which again, high chance of this happening.
So with Tene currently on a full rotation you are adding about 21.6% to 43.18% damage boost.
Lets compare that with R10 darks. Which arguably, wouldnt even increase my damage against CW or TRs but lets say it does since im already at 28.5%.
300*6 = 1800. 1800 ARP = ROUGHLY 15% damage boost. I can get 3600 power which would then equate about a 13% damage boost in attacks.
so 13-15% versus 21.6-43% damage? Hands down Tene by DOUBLE.
Now lets compare POST nerf.
Well like I said I have 28.5% arp equiv. Lets assume attacking a person with 50% DR. my effective arp drops them to 20%. Or just for fun, lets say I have NO ARP or maybe my stats dont even count towards tene enchants.
Well now you but my damage boost in HALF. Ontop of that even lets assume that im attacking a GWF whose got 33% deflect so 1/3 of my tene do 50% damage ontop of that!
5760 for 6 tenes, 50% = 2880 so 480 each, 2 get deflected so 240 for two of them,
240+240+(480*4)= 2400.
Lets take the encounter rotation above.
26400 with 2400-4800(2 procs) STILL equals a 9% damage boost to a 18% damage boost if you get 2 procs.
remember the math from the R10s? Well it was a 13% if power and we were arguing a 15% with arp.
And ALL of this was a WORST case scenario right? 2 deflects, 50% DR. NO debuff target with NO arp factoring in?
well now your getting a 9-18% damage boost versus a 13-15% damage boost. Not that bad... and STILL arguably better.
Now add arp and debuffs and your looking at a target with easily 30% Dr or less, attack a target with low deflect and youll do WAY more damage to a target than R10s can possibly do.
5700 = 950 each proc, lets say 1 deflects and the others are 30% DR.
30% DR = 665 each. 1 deflects so 332.
665*5+332=3657 damage and two sets = 7300.
So now your getting a 14% to 28% damage boost on your encounter damage... EVEN 1 set of procs puts you equiv to R10 darks and thats with ONE deflect and 30% DR. TWO sets of procs gets you DOUBLE the damage boost of R10s.
If its STILL easily comparable to R10s... POST nerf, what does that tell you about PRE nerf enchants?
You have some interesting analysis here, you say that if my deflection procs once, i will deflect ONE of the enchantments? not all 7 of them?
Also i agree about the part of mitigation, people forget that you can debuff that. Mitigation debuffs applies before damage calculations.
I think it would be better if there was a flat reduction to tenebrous, instead of one that makes it harder to kill damage reduction stacking trolls like sentinel gwf's. Poor cw's...
Your equation is put in your "perfect world" scenario, the reality is that factoring in stat loss and the fact that you are rarely at 100% HP brings Tene's in line with R8's or so I would imagine, and that's how they are currently, imagine if you cut that damage in half vs. tanky opponents.
Not sure what you meant by that, but tene's doesn't depend on your current HP..it depends on your total HP. Maybe i misunderstood you and you were talking about something else.
Not sure what you meant by that, but tene's doesn't depend on your current HP..it depends on your total HP. Maybe i misunderstood you and you were talking about something else.
Not sure what you meant by that, but tene's doesn't depend on your current HP..it depends on your total HP. Maybe i misunderstood you and you were talking about something else.
Tenebrous does work on your current hp, not max. If you lose half your hp and your tenes proc, you'll do half as much damage as you would if you were at full health.
Not sure what you meant by that, but tene's doesn't depend on your current HP..it depends on your total HP. Maybe i misunderstood you and you were talking about something else.
When striking a foe you have a chance to deal 3% of current Hit points as Necrotic damage.
Tenebrous does work on your current hp, not max. If you lose half your hp and your tenes proc, you'll do half as much damage as you would if you were at full health.
That's weird, maybe i never noticed because my GWF is usually almost full HP because of unstoppable recovery. Hence why i always seen my full procs of my tenes (most of the time atleast).
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited October 2013
Thanks for the change. And it's a change that doesn't impact PvE at all really. Maybe it will actually make PvP fun again.
All the people threatening legal action are pretty funny. I'd say the actual percentage of those who would actually pursue it though are pretty small.
What everyone is failing to see is the fact that necrotic damage has always pierced resistances and necrotic damage other than tene's will continue to do so. No other enchantment damage in the game can be deflected.
I would like to emphasize again that ONLY Tenebrous damage pierces resistances NOT general Necrotic which is just as affected by mitigation and ArP as anything else. Do some testing, seriously!
I have no idea about deflection, but I am going to assume, given the evidence so far, you also have not tested this.
That's weird, maybe i never noticed because my GWF is usually almost full HP because of unstoppable recovery.
That is because all builds built around Tenebrous are built to stay close to full health. That is why they stack not just HPs, but deflect and regen. Whether it is a permastealth/survivability built rogue, a sentinel GWF, a full tank built GF, or even a high health/defensive CW, they all have this in common that they have ways to keep themselves close to full health. The only counter to that is to focus them hard. 1v1 this is generally a losing proposition considering how tanky they are. I run a regen sentinel without Tene's and it isn't hard to stay pretty high on health unless be focuses by at least 2 people.
So it pretty much takes at least 2 people to counter them. Here is the problem though. What happens when the entire team is built this way with a cleric making it take 3 people to keep one person low on health. You won't have 12 people to keep them all low on health. So you focus one, and the rest get to unload. Or you focus the cleric and 3-4 people get to unload with damage that cannot be countered. If you spread your DPS, they will all be near full health.
That is the issue. Any other build of class sacrifices survivability to get that damage. 6-7 rank 10 enchants on a full tank spec/geared character won't make much difference. You will have to sacrifice some of that survivability for damage. That means less regen, less deflect, maybe less encounters focused on survival, etc, etc.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
That is because all builds built around Tenebrous are built to stay close to full health. That is why they stack not just HPs, but deflect and regen. Whether it is a permastealth/survivability built rogue, a sentinel GWF, a full tank built GF, or even a high health/defensive CW, they all have this in common that they have ways to keep themselves close to full health. The only counter to that is to focus them hard. 1v1 this is generally a losing proposition considering how tanky they are. I run a regen sentinel without Tene's and it isn't hard to stay pretty high on health unless be focuses by at least 2 people.
So it pretty much takes at least 2 people to counter them. Here is the problem though. What happens when the entire team is built this way with a cleric making it take 3 people to keep one person low on health. You won't have 12 people to keep them all low on health. So you focus one, and the rest get to unload. Or you focus the cleric and 3-4 people get to unload with damage that cannot be countered. If you spread your DPS, they will all be near full health.
That is the issue. Any other build of class sacrifices survivability to get that damage. 6-7 rank 10 enchants on a full tank spec/geared character won't make much difference. You will have to sacrifice some of that survivability for damage. That means less regen, less deflect, maybe less encounters focused on survival, etc, etc.
That makes perfect sense, with tenebrous nerfed or not, you can't kill a tank 1vs1.
That is because all builds built around Tenebrous are built to stay close to full health. That is why they stack not just HPs, but deflect and regen. Whether it is a permastealth/survivability built rogue, a sentinel GWF, a full tank built GF, or even a high health/defensive CW, they all have this in common that they have ways to keep themselves close to full health. The only counter to that is to focus them hard. 1v1 this is generally a losing proposition considering how tanky they are. I run a regen sentinel without Tene's and it isn't hard to stay pretty high on health unless be focuses by at least 2 people.
So it pretty much takes at least 2 people to counter them. Here is the problem though. What happens when the entire team is built this way with a cleric making it take 3 people to keep one person low on health. You won't have 12 people to keep them all low on health. So you focus one, and the rest get to unload. Or you focus the cleric and 3-4 people get to unload with damage that cannot be countered. If you spread your DPS, they will all be near full health.
That is the issue. Any other build of class sacrifices survivability to get that damage. 6-7 rank 10 enchants on a full tank spec/geared character won't make much difference. You will have to sacrifice some of that survivability for damage. That means less regen, less deflect, maybe less encounters focused on survival, etc, etc.
Exactly. There is a reason they are using Tene's and not higher rank enchants. Because tene's are far and away best for pvp. I'm sure the devs are able to see the numbers on the high end pvp'ers.
That is because all builds built around Tenebrous are built to stay close to full health. That is why they stack not just HPs, but deflect and regen. Whether it is a permastealth/survivability built rogue, a sentinel GWF, a full tank built GF, or even a high health/defensive CW, they all have this in common that they have ways to keep themselves close to full health. The only counter to that is to focus them hard. 1v1 this is generally a losing proposition considering how tanky they are. I run a regen sentinel without Tene's and it isn't hard to stay pretty high on health unless be focuses by at least 2 people.
So it pretty much takes at least 2 people to counter them. Here is the problem though. What happens when the entire team is built this way with a cleric making it take 3 people to keep one person low on health. You won't have 12 people to keep them all low on health. So you focus one, and the rest get to unload. Or you focus the cleric and 3-4 people get to unload with damage that cannot be countered. If you spread your DPS, they will all be near full health.
That is the issue. Any other build of class sacrifices survivability to get that damage. 6-7 rank 10 enchants on a full tank spec/geared character won't make much difference. You will have to sacrifice some of that survivability for damage. That means less regen, less deflect, maybe less encounters focused on survival, etc, etc.
Explain, U want the to take out 7 Offense slots of tenes and put in more armor pen, crit, power, recov. U may not do as much burst but u will do more DPS. Tenes < Rank 8+ .
Currently Tene's go through every normal counter. The list is long, but people also tend to forget powerful cleric buffs like Foresight, resistance from astral shield and hallowed ground. When my GWF is in a full unstoppable, you would have to have a ton of ArPen just to bring her below the 80% resistance cap. Tenebrous bypass it all.
If I want to upgrade my damage to a reasonable level, it takes more than 6-7 enchants, it takes switching out much of my gear such as weapons/armor/rings/neck/belt. If a GF switching from a tank/tenebrous build wants damage, he is going to have to drop his regents armor to most likley Timeless losing a bunch of Defense/Deflect, switch out those 217 regen rings for power/crit/ArPen, drop the health neck/belt for DPS items. You could make a case for each and every class that utilizes a tenebrous build. Those rank 10s will be very powerful on a damage oriented build, but you will be giving up survivability for it. You will be forced to balance damage/survivability.
I switch out gear all the time for more damage when pugging for fun. But the survivability hit is so noticeable for my GWF just switching out weapons/neck/rings, that when things get serious she is right back in her full tank survivability gear.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I would like to emphasize again that ONLY Tenebrous damage pierces resistances NOT general Necrotic which is just as affected by mitigation and ArP as anything else. Do some testing, seriously!
I have no idea about deflection, but I am going to assume, given the evidence so far, you also have not tested this.
I doubt they will consider arp and mitigation on tene dmg, just because of the poor changes in the past.
Just look at the HV stack now, sure it was broken op but now it's max 3 stack even with 3 HV cw's.
That doesnt make sense and it's just a bad and inconsiderated design.
The same thing will happen to tenes, otherwise u could may find a way to make them very viable again with a mix of r10 darks and maybe 3-4 tenes.
But this game is getting boring anyway so i couldn't care less.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
shenenehMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited October 2013
The boredom of this game's pve content has consumed me for months now since I started playing in Open Beta. The only thing that keeps me playing is the pvp end game, cus nothing beats the adrenaline rush of killing another player. So if you devs think you can marginalized pvp for the general masses of this game you are gravely mistaken. Tenebrous is high end enchantment, if you Devs do not understand that basis and want to make it comparable to other enchants because you think the general population of this game is where your money comes from then you are blind!
No other enchantment loses it's CD when it was dodged and didn't have the chance to proc anyway.
They shouldn't do damage when dodged, that is a legitimate bug and something that should be fixed. The other fixes are to appease bad players...
Edit: @ayroux: those damage numbers would be much greater without tene's, my previous GF build without them easily hit 10-12k lunging and bull charges. You are also forgetting to add the 100's if not 1000's of stat point loss if you use that many tene's. And last but not least you are doing the equation as if the GF consistantly has 100% HP which is not the case more often than it is the case.
Your equation is put in your "perfect world" scenario, the reality is that factoring in stat loss and the fact that you are rarely at 100% HP brings Tene's in line with R8's or so I would imagine, and that's how they are currently, imagine if you cut that damage in half vs. tanky opponents.
Tene's give damage every 20 seconds, that's rarely more than 1 time per fight unless it's a 1v1. So on a DPS character you get ~6300 burst damage (30k hp) for stat losses of well over 1000, on a tank you might get ~7350 (35k HP). My GF gets ~4260 as I only run 4 tene's and this damage rarely every is the reason I kill someone. I use it to counter soulforged/itc etc.
Those values are at 100% HP again, so most likely you will get 50-75% of that number at best. That is less than any encounter. Even my restoring strike on my GWF in full tank gear and no offensive stats can hit for 5k.
1) The Devs DIDNT say you lose the CD if its dodged, thats an assumption and YES that would be dumb if they did that, since like you said no other CD works that way, I assume this wont either.
2)For my numbers I also forgot to add the fact that your encounters can be deflected. So to revisit them,
Total damage output: 26,400 without tene enchants.
Take this number and say only 1 encounter gets deflected and 1 at will gets deflected, thats only TWO attacks out of the 8 that hit so a 25% deflect.
Bull rush - 5k (deflected to 2.5k)
Lunge - 4k
Frontline - 3k
Bullrush (crit) - 8k
At wills- 1400 each x 3 and 1 deflect of 700.
This brings total damage output to 23200 and thats being gracious.
THEN add your math of tenebs
5760 for 6 tenes, 50% = 2880 so 480 each, 2 get deflected so 240 for two of them,
240+240+(480*4)= 2400.
So now when you look at this math its over a 10% damage boost AND 20% for two procs, of which, again you have an 80% chance of getting over that 16 seconds.
So a 20% chance youll only get a damage boost of 10% and an 80% chance to get a damage boost of 20%.
3) I am not forgetting to add the numbers, I went on my current character with 6 GTE enchants and went into a pvp match and got those exact numbers and come up with an "average".
I then used the math comparisons swapping out the points to ARP or power, again if im at 28.5% arp even a 20% arp boost only helps against a few classes not all of them, but besides the point.
Im using real numbers that are on average, you may get 10-12k bulls on crit but thats with fellow debuffs or vorpal which again, if you run debuffs those will help tenebs also.
From my extensive experience playing TR/GWF/GF only the GWF will be at 50-75% HP. Almost all the time on my other classes I am at 80% or above.
So even 80% of that 10-20% boost your looking at an 8-16% boost from tenebs. Versus R10 darks which again dont ALWAYS help versus lower DR characters.
Point is, its VERY easy to see they are NOT worse than R5s, Id say this nerf brings them more inline with maybe R7-8s at worst at LOW hp versus a Tanky Character and BETTER than R10s in good scenarios.
Thats the tradeoff your getting, if your low HP, even currently, R7-8s will out damage. At full HP tenebs will out damage. Its a tradeoff and thats up to you to decide how to min/max. If you think youll do better with R9s and R10s then go for it! The math isnt supported there but eh its your character.
Again I will state, the CD on Tenebrous enchants are SERVER SIDE NOT A HARD ICD.
LIKE I SAID, IN 16 SECONDS OF COMBAT, YOU HAVE AN 80% chance to get TWO procs for each tene you have. TWO PROCS! IF YOU HAVE 6, THATS 12 PROCS, IF YOU HAVE 7 THATS 14!
THERE IS A 50% CHANCE YOU WILL GET PROCS WITHIN 10 SECONDS. ONLY A 5ish PERCENT CHANCE ITLL BE A 19-20 sec CD.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The boredom of this game's pve content has consumed me for months now since I started playing in Open Beta. The only thing that keeps me playing is the pvp end game, cus nothing beats the adrenaline rush of killing another player. So if you devs think you can marginalized pvp for the general masses of this game you are gravely mistaken. Tenebrous is high end enchantment, if you Devs do not understand that basis and want to make it comparable to other enchants because you think the general population of this game is where your money comes from then you are blind!
1. The general population is where the majority of money comes from in NW. Many people spend $10-$30 a month on this game. Very few people spend many hundreds or thousands.
2. Those who have spent many hundreds or thousands do not continue to do so. Once they have their end gear, the cash stops coming in.
1. The general population is where the majority of money comes from in NW. Many people spend $10-$30 a month on this game. Very few people spend many hundreds or thousands.
2. Those who have spent many hundreds or thousands do not continue to do so. Once they have their end gear, the cash stops coming in.
That doesnt mean screw over people who did pay that money.
They do need to be careful about this enchant.
They need to IMO:
Reduce the CD to compensate for lack of damage, and make it so a Dodge does NOT use the CD. They also need to make sure that if 1 gets deflected, the others dont as well, that would be broken.
I am 100% AGAINST them breaking this enchant. I do, however, like most of the proposed changes.
If it were me, I would have just changed it to say radiant damage or even regular damage that takes full DR into consideration, however the deflect and dodge... eh.. makes me nervous.
This will just make GWFs even stronger than before since they have such high deflect AND DR.
I would, however, point out they havnt exactly said what and ho it will work yet, that waits to be seen.
They only said the FIRST things they are looking at are DR,deflect, and dodges. Doesnt mean they have announced this is exactly how it will work, end of story.
They also said they will put it on the PTR to see how it works meaning if it DOESNT work how they hope, they will change it again.
So people who thing the world is ending, the sky is falling, and the tenebs are worthless. Maybe your jumping the gun a little here...
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Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
I want to just say I was watching a bunch of 1 v 1 battles in a slight in-house we had arranged to watch a certain duo 1 v 1 but as the game progressed everyone got to playing.. Funny thing was the person on my team with not even a SINGLE Greater Tenebrous was beating everyone WITH Rank 8 Enchantments and a GREATER Vorpal.. Not even perfect enchantment. Nuff said, tbh I wont even be aiming for tenebrous enchantments after seeing all the crying id rather have stable + cheaper + better enchants lololol.
Signed,
Pestilence
By ; @pestilence149
Gladiators of Dhara (Easy) & (Hard)
ELIGIBLE FOR THE DAILY FOUNDRY REWARDS!
Search by Best : Name/Summary/Short-Code ; Gladiators
NW-DJJS7OWZI (For easy)
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Any feedback and suggestions are welcome please enjoy!
Holy HAMSTER, give this dude a cookie. +Vouch for every idea.
Edit; Not to mention the vendoring of Tenebrous enchantments if you all want them to be gone so badly plus free unslots to EVERYONE who has already unslotted these trying to flip them before losing their entire fortune.
By ; @pestilence149
Gladiators of Dhara (Easy) & (Hard)
ELIGIBLE FOR THE DAILY FOUNDRY REWARDS!
Search by Best : Name/Summary/Short-Code ; Gladiators
NW-DJJS7OWZI (For easy)
NW-DPT9I8RKF (For hard)
Any feedback and suggestions are welcome please enjoy!
fixed this for you with real information, not propaganda. I already showed you the math on this.
your math is imaginary numbers, rank 5 darks aren't better. only rank 9 ~ 10 are better. Look at the difference with rank 10 darks.
Esteena,
Your math is pretty accurate. People keep forgetting that PVP is NOT DPS and while in PVE the enchants AS IS are already worse than rank 5s... The changes proposed for pvp IMO is overkill however they are still easily BIS for pvp.
A typical rotation on my GF with frontline/bullrush/lungingstrike with 28.5% arp equiv (through arp and Dex) is on average as follows
Lets look at a typical GF encounter rotation.
2 Bull rush
2 lunge Strike
1 frontline surge
on average 3-4 at wills.
total duration: about 16 seconds.
Lets assign average values on these attacks. Out of 4 encounters lets also assume 1 crits and well even put it on the hardest hitting ability bullrush.
Bull rush - 5k
Lunge - 4k
Frontline - 3k
Bullrush (crit) - 8k
At wills- 1400 each
Total damage output: 26,400 without tene enchants.
Now heres where its interesting. Because of the way tene works and the 20 second serverside CD, there is an 80% chance in 16 seconds youll get TWO sets of CDs. Lets look at tene procs as the are currently.
32k hp * .03 *6(GF) = 5700
So ONE set of procs takes you from 26400 TO 32,160 and TWO sets 37,800 which again, high chance of this happening.
So with Tene currently on a full rotation you are adding about 21.6% to 43.18% damage boost.
Lets compare that with R10 darks. Which arguably, wouldnt even increase my damage against CW or TRs but lets say it does since im already at 28.5%.
300*6 = 1800. 1800 ARP = ROUGHLY 15% damage boost. I can get 3600 power which would then equate about a 13% damage boost in attacks.
so 13-15% versus 21.6-43% damage? Hands down Tene by DOUBLE.
Now lets compare POST nerf.
Well like I said I have 28.5% arp equiv. Lets assume attacking a person with 50% DR. my effective arp drops them to 20%. Or just for fun, lets say I have NO ARP or maybe my stats dont even count towards tene enchants.
Well now you but my damage boost in HALF. Ontop of that even lets assume that im attacking a GWF whose got 33% deflect so 1/3 of my tene do 50% damage ontop of that!
5760 for 6 tenes, 50% = 2880 so 480 each, 2 get deflected so 240 for two of them,
240+240+(480*4)= 2400.
Lets take the encounter rotation above.
26400 with 2400-4800(2 procs) STILL equals a 9% damage boost to a 18% damage boost if you get 2 procs.
remember the math from the R10s? Well it was a 13% if power and we were arguing a 15% with arp.
And ALL of this was a WORST case scenario right? 2 deflects, 50% DR. NO debuff target with NO arp factoring in?
well now your getting a 9-18% damage boost versus a 13-15% damage boost. Not that bad... and STILL arguably better.
Now add arp and debuffs and your looking at a target with easily 30% Dr or less, attack a target with low deflect and youll do WAY more damage to a target than R10s can possibly do.
5700 = 950 each proc, lets say 1 deflects and the others are 30% DR.
30% DR = 665 each. 1 deflects so 332.
665*5+332=3657 damage and two sets = 7300.
So now your getting a 14% to 28% damage boost on your encounter damage... EVEN 1 set of procs puts you equiv to R10 darks and thats with ONE deflect and 30% DR. TWO sets of procs gets you DOUBLE the damage boost of R10s.
If its STILL easily comparable to R10s... POST nerf, what does that tell you about PRE nerf enchants?
The point I'm making is that their "fixes" go directly against the basic fundamentals of the game just to appease the crying people in this thread that are unable to win against them.
They shouldn't do damage when dodged, that is a legitimate bug and something that should be fixed. The other fixes are to appease bad players...
Edit: @ayroux: those damage numbers would be much greater without tene's, my previous GF build without them easily hit 10-12k lunging and bull charges. You are also forgetting to add the 100's if not 1000's of stat point loss if you use that many tene's. And last but not least you are doing the equation as if the GF consistantly has 100% HP which is not the case more often than it is the case.
Your equation is put in your "perfect world" scenario, the reality is that factoring in stat loss and the fact that you are rarely at 100% HP brings Tene's in line with R8's or so I would imagine, and that's how they are currently, imagine if you cut that damage in half vs. tanky opponents.
Tene's give damage every 20 seconds, that's rarely more than 1 time per fight unless it's a 1v1. So on a DPS character you get ~6300 burst damage (30k hp) for stat losses of well over 1000, on a tank you might get ~7350 (35k HP). My GF gets ~4260 as I only run 4 tene's and this damage rarely every is the reason I kill someone. I use it to counter soulforged/itc etc.
Those values are at 100% HP again, so most likely you will get 50-75% of that number at best. That is less than any encounter. Even my restoring strike on my GWF in full tank gear and no offensive stats can hit for 5k.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You have some interesting analysis here, you say that if my deflection procs once, i will deflect ONE of the enchantments? not all 7 of them?
Also i agree about the part of mitigation, people forget that you can debuff that. Mitigation debuffs applies before damage calculations.
Not sure what you meant by that, but tene's doesn't depend on your current HP..it depends on your total HP. Maybe i misunderstood you and you were talking about something else.
From our total HP?? really? :rolleyes:
https://www.youtube.com/user/ThePatomalo/videos
Tenebrous does work on your current hp, not max. If you lose half your hp and your tenes proc, you'll do half as much damage as you would if you were at full health.
When striking a foe you have a chance to deal 3% of current Hit points as Necrotic damage.
That's weird, maybe i never noticed because my GWF is usually almost full HP because of unstoppable recovery. Hence why i always seen my full procs of my tenes (most of the time atleast).
All the people threatening legal action are pretty funny. I'd say the actual percentage of those who would actually pursue it though are pretty small.
I would like to emphasize again that ONLY Tenebrous damage pierces resistances NOT general Necrotic which is just as affected by mitigation and ArP as anything else. Do some testing, seriously!
I have no idea about deflection, but I am going to assume, given the evidence so far, you also have not tested this.
That is because all builds built around Tenebrous are built to stay close to full health. That is why they stack not just HPs, but deflect and regen. Whether it is a permastealth/survivability built rogue, a sentinel GWF, a full tank built GF, or even a high health/defensive CW, they all have this in common that they have ways to keep themselves close to full health. The only counter to that is to focus them hard. 1v1 this is generally a losing proposition considering how tanky they are. I run a regen sentinel without Tene's and it isn't hard to stay pretty high on health unless be focuses by at least 2 people.
So it pretty much takes at least 2 people to counter them. Here is the problem though. What happens when the entire team is built this way with a cleric making it take 3 people to keep one person low on health. You won't have 12 people to keep them all low on health. So you focus one, and the rest get to unload. Or you focus the cleric and 3-4 people get to unload with damage that cannot be countered. If you spread your DPS, they will all be near full health.
That is the issue. Any other build of class sacrifices survivability to get that damage. 6-7 rank 10 enchants on a full tank spec/geared character won't make much difference. You will have to sacrifice some of that survivability for damage. That means less regen, less deflect, maybe less encounters focused on survival, etc, etc.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
That makes perfect sense, with tenebrous nerfed or not, you can't kill a tank 1vs1.
Exactly. There is a reason they are using Tene's and not higher rank enchants. Because tene's are far and away best for pvp. I'm sure the devs are able to see the numbers on the high end pvp'ers.
Explain, U want the to take out 7 Offense slots of tenes and put in more armor pen, crit, power, recov. U may not do as much burst but u will do more DPS. Tenes < Rank 8+ .
If I want to upgrade my damage to a reasonable level, it takes more than 6-7 enchants, it takes switching out much of my gear such as weapons/armor/rings/neck/belt. If a GF switching from a tank/tenebrous build wants damage, he is going to have to drop his regents armor to most likley Timeless losing a bunch of Defense/Deflect, switch out those 217 regen rings for power/crit/ArPen, drop the health neck/belt for DPS items. You could make a case for each and every class that utilizes a tenebrous build. Those rank 10s will be very powerful on a damage oriented build, but you will be giving up survivability for it. You will be forced to balance damage/survivability.
I switch out gear all the time for more damage when pugging for fun. But the survivability hit is so noticeable for my GWF just switching out weapons/neck/rings, that when things get serious she is right back in her full tank survivability gear.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I doubt they will consider arp and mitigation on tene dmg, just because of the poor changes in the past.
Just look at the HV stack now, sure it was broken op but now it's max 3 stack even with 3 HV cw's.
That doesnt make sense and it's just a bad and inconsiderated design.
The same thing will happen to tenes, otherwise u could may find a way to make them very viable again with a mix of r10 darks and maybe 3-4 tenes.
But this game is getting boring anyway so i couldn't care less.
You sure about that? :cool:
Trace@degraafination. Find me in game and we can test it out!
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
1) The Devs DIDNT say you lose the CD if its dodged, thats an assumption and YES that would be dumb if they did that, since like you said no other CD works that way, I assume this wont either.
2)For my numbers I also forgot to add the fact that your encounters can be deflected. So to revisit them,
Total damage output: 26,400 without tene enchants.
Take this number and say only 1 encounter gets deflected and 1 at will gets deflected, thats only TWO attacks out of the 8 that hit so a 25% deflect.
Bull rush - 5k (deflected to 2.5k)
Lunge - 4k
Frontline - 3k
Bullrush (crit) - 8k
At wills- 1400 each x 3 and 1 deflect of 700.
This brings total damage output to 23200 and thats being gracious.
THEN add your math of tenebs
5760 for 6 tenes, 50% = 2880 so 480 each, 2 get deflected so 240 for two of them,
240+240+(480*4)= 2400.
So now when you look at this math its over a 10% damage boost AND 20% for two procs, of which, again you have an 80% chance of getting over that 16 seconds.
So a 20% chance youll only get a damage boost of 10% and an 80% chance to get a damage boost of 20%.
3) I am not forgetting to add the numbers, I went on my current character with 6 GTE enchants and went into a pvp match and got those exact numbers and come up with an "average".
I then used the math comparisons swapping out the points to ARP or power, again if im at 28.5% arp even a 20% arp boost only helps against a few classes not all of them, but besides the point.
Im using real numbers that are on average, you may get 10-12k bulls on crit but thats with fellow debuffs or vorpal which again, if you run debuffs those will help tenebs also.
From my extensive experience playing TR/GWF/GF only the GWF will be at 50-75% HP. Almost all the time on my other classes I am at 80% or above.
So even 80% of that 10-20% boost your looking at an 8-16% boost from tenebs. Versus R10 darks which again dont ALWAYS help versus lower DR characters.
Point is, its VERY easy to see they are NOT worse than R5s, Id say this nerf brings them more inline with maybe R7-8s at worst at LOW hp versus a Tanky Character and BETTER than R10s in good scenarios.
Thats the tradeoff your getting, if your low HP, even currently, R7-8s will out damage. At full HP tenebs will out damage. Its a tradeoff and thats up to you to decide how to min/max. If you think youll do better with R9s and R10s then go for it! The math isnt supported there but eh its your character.
Again I will state, the CD on Tenebrous enchants are SERVER SIDE NOT A HARD ICD.
LIKE I SAID, IN 16 SECONDS OF COMBAT, YOU HAVE AN 80% chance to get TWO procs for each tene you have. TWO PROCS! IF YOU HAVE 6, THATS 12 PROCS, IF YOU HAVE 7 THATS 14!
THERE IS A 50% CHANCE YOU WILL GET PROCS WITHIN 10 SECONDS. ONLY A 5ish PERCENT CHANCE ITLL BE A 19-20 sec CD.
1. The general population is where the majority of money comes from in NW. Many people spend $10-$30 a month on this game. Very few people spend many hundreds or thousands.
2. Those who have spent many hundreds or thousands do not continue to do so. Once they have their end gear, the cash stops coming in.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
That doesnt mean screw over people who did pay that money.
They do need to be careful about this enchant.
They need to IMO:
Reduce the CD to compensate for lack of damage, and make it so a Dodge does NOT use the CD. They also need to make sure that if 1 gets deflected, the others dont as well, that would be broken.
I am 100% AGAINST them breaking this enchant. I do, however, like most of the proposed changes.
If it were me, I would have just changed it to say radiant damage or even regular damage that takes full DR into consideration, however the deflect and dodge... eh.. makes me nervous.
This will just make GWFs even stronger than before since they have such high deflect AND DR.
I would, however, point out they havnt exactly said what and ho it will work yet, that waits to be seen.
They only said the FIRST things they are looking at are DR,deflect, and dodges. Doesnt mean they have announced this is exactly how it will work, end of story.
They also said they will put it on the PTR to see how it works meaning if it DOESNT work how they hope, they will change it again.
So people who thing the world is ending, the sky is falling, and the tenebs are worthless. Maybe your jumping the gun a little here...