Let's be honest here, the vast majority of players do not know a good gwf, they lead more by aesthetics than by factual description of the class. See themselves as a "rogue resistant" obvious reason for frustration.
Much is made of the players that exclude gwf of partys. The VAST MAJORITY of these players are not good either. Since my 9/10k without allure or something, I took many of them in the back, and only at the end of dungeons due recognition.
Now if you know how to prepare a building, you will realize that there is a CLEAR disadvantage of this class to all the other, a disadvantage which has increased even more due to this **** pvp.
* I will insist on this suggestion: in addition to reverse this nonsense they did with the "roar", add the possibility of "steel bitz" cause "interupt". This change, for those who understand what entails not only increase damage gwf as the rogues.
I would agree with some of the counter points here: it's not our class that is really messed up, it's the way the PvE is settled.
Look at us in PvP. I did well as a destroyer (excellent damage, tank was okay) and better as a sentinel (now I hold positions and play 'speed bump' till my mates arrive, but have a harder time killing than before). Both also worked fine for me in dungeons, though I will be the first to recognize that some bosses just need a good TR to toast them, and while I can tank just fine, I'm not as good as a GF.
But if you (cryptic) played with the mobs a bit? It could really finish out the job.
- Set up choke points where a good rogue in stealth can make it easier for the whole party (I mean intended mechanics, not glitches). Like lowering a bridge or assassinating a watchmen.
- Focus archers on CW's, then healers, instead of letting them be judged by the aggro mechanism.
- Have certain mobs that actually get stronger if the wrong CC is used on them. Like Ice Elementals reacting to ice, or air elementals being untouched by sing.
- Add more environmental effects and hazards which, possibly with a well-timed swing of a big sword, can be stopped.
- Give the mobs a reason to focus on the tank. Like, a legitimate reason.
Just some quick ideas is all.
Now why can't Devs have half your common sense. These are the type of solutions/discussions that need to be discussed on the forums.
@kidbs: didn't take the time to read your entire post, since you keep repeating the same things. Just one thing: i play a GWF as main character, and if you spec it as destroyer to keep aggro using raw damage, you end up with 21-23k hp, 2.2k defense and depending on what you choose you can have deflection or life steal as added defense bonus. It's not enough to, let's say, pull t2 epic mobs (lvl 65) and survive. If you go sentinel, you part of the offensive power and end up with less ability to aggro mobs.
@copti: i never said it's a cospiracy, you wrote a lot of bs about what i meant with my statement, but that's your problem. I just said that to me you look more concerned about preserving the current CW status than solving the issue. Never said you want to "sabotage" anything, and reading that was quite pathetic. Also: i play a GWF and tested both destroyer and sentinel. Sure there's people that know how a GWF works better than me, but i've also read assumptions made by you and kidbs that are out of reality and that lead me to say that you talk about speculations and not actual experience.
I started to reply to you both using the tooltips just cause you obviously didn't trust a single thing a said, so i was trying to bring in a 3rd source of info. Looks like you don't believe devs too.
All i can say is that if as you say GWF are primary tanks, then there would be also no need for a GF. If you say that a GWF can tank like a GF and dish out AoE damage, then again i ask you why people call GFs when they need a tank. They could just call a GWF who can be both a primary tank and a second AoE damage dealer.
There can't be 2 primary tanks. If that was the case, it would be another game design flaw. Each class need a specific role, which its the best at. I've not played a GF, but i don't see people looking for GWFs when they need a tank for a dungeon. Which lead me to believe, along with my personal experience with GWFs, that they are not intended to be primary tanks that "dish out some AoE damage".
Now, it's quite simple: you yourself said that a 4 CW party is the best choice. Now, the best choice should be 1 of each class. Which other changes you would make to let this happen? Again, the changes to the mob justify a GF tank, a DC, a TR and a CW. Which role, in such party, a GWF in its current state would be supposed to cover, something that only they can do and that would make them the best 5th element of a party.
Answer please.
@ lobo: i was full destroyer, stunlock build (for damage first sentinel feat is better than any instigator, i know, but i wanted to try that build in PvP) then went sentinel. With the same gear, my GS raised of about 400 points. My damage is still almost the same and my survivability increased immensely. You don't really lose that much offensive capability unless you go full defensive with your gear.
all the above suggestions are excellent, but before thinking "outside the box" you need to have your feet on the ground.
* 1 - perhaps these changes do not meet the expectations of the general public, I must confess that what attracts me most here is that dynamic "hack and slash" multiplayer.
* 2 - this would be a future project for hypothetical dungeons to be launched in the coming years.
For now, it makes no sense to argue about what the game could be, but on what he intends to be actually TODAY. Within what he intended to be TODAY;
* 1 - Classes are uneven, and the gap only increases as a function of the pvp, the antithesis of the above proposal.
2 - before certain bugs, imagine that redo artificial intelligence is a distant dream.
@pando83 GWF as GF is a soldier class hence a tank. If u look at the skills of both classes u;ll see that one if more focused on tanking big mobs slow and that hit hard while the other is for aoe tanking with alot of mobility. Tanking with dmg is not something that should be, cause there are very few who can afford a perfect lightning enchant and a tank should be able to at least to the threat part without gear requirements. So here is the problem for my GWF sentinel, i cant generate threat cause skills are bad, always have been but now they are cut in half. When it comes to dmg specs i can assure u that GF does rly good dmg. He has the better skills of the 2 classes and his last on conqueror tree actually does something. More to support the tank aspect of the class.. we have gear sets for tanking, weapons for tanking (no clue why i dont have a weapon set for tanking, but heh is just a minor thing compared to the rest), paragon path for tanking and skills that should be for tanking.. so by all means GWF is a tank. Want GWF to have a role? make boss encounter like this... GF tanks boss, TR dps boss since btw if u look at his skills tr should hit from behind with combat advantage and it fails hard at doing that cause more often then not it is the tank, GWF tanks adds that cant be CC and do aoe dmg (see ice giants in FH) and gather up trash for a CW to kill/CC/Throw without being at risk of dieing cause mobs faced aoes towards him and ofc DC to heal/buff/debuff. Mechanics are all there!.
@kidbs: didn't take the time to read your entire post, since you keep repeating the same things. Just one thing: i play a GWF as main character, and if you spec it as destroyer to keep aggro using raw damage, you end up with 21-23k hp, 2.2k defense and depending on what you choose you can have deflection or life steal as added defense bonus. It's not enough to, let's say, pull t2 epic mobs (lvl 65) and survive. If you go sentinel, you part of the offensive power and end up with less ability to aggro mobs.
You keep making the same incorrect assumption about Destroyer not being able to handle tanking. People like me, ARE telling you that it is done, and I do it everyday, ANY T2, any epic mobs, 10+ mobs, Boss + adds, mini boss + adds, Spellplague last phase with a gazillion adds. And before you assume I am in some kind of tricked out GWF, here are my stats:
1850 Defense, 460 deflect, 720 regen, 1570 Life Steal.
So between my natural DR, Unstoppable, Daring Shout, Astral Shield, Foresight, Divine Armor, Hallowed Ground, any 1-2 combinations of these effects and even a Destroyer will cap the Damage Resistance 90% of the time easily. Add to that 10% Life Steal on a spammable AoE At-Will and you got yourself a great tank, that not only has awesome survivability but also generate good aggro.
@copti: i never said it's a cospiracy, you wrote a lot of bs about what i meant with my statement, but that's your problem. I just said that to me you look more concerned about preserving the current CW status than solving the issue. Never said you want to "sabotage" anything, and reading that was quite pathetic. Also: i play a GWF and tested both destroyer and sentinel. Sure there's people that know how a GWF works better than me, but i've also read assumptions made by you and kidbs that are out of reality and that lead me to say that you talk about speculations and not actual experience.
I started to reply to you both using the tooltips just cause you obviously didn't trust a single thing a said, so i was trying to bring in a 3rd source of info. Looks like you don't believe devs too.
I really don't know what to say. I am relaying MY own experience of the class. I am not making assumptions or speculating ANYTHING. You can assume I run with poorly geared/skilled players, and you can assume that I have 15k GS with perfect vorpal/lightning/whatever, but when I say that I tank and also do good dps then that's exactly what I do, and I run with other GWFs that do it just as well if not better. Now I could be completely lying about it, I may not even have a GWF like some insightful person said, which would of course go great with the idea that I am concerned about my CW's status. lol I never said I don't trust what you said. I totally believe that you are giving an opinion based on YOUR experience. All I am telling you is that not all GWF players share the same experience.
All i can say is that if as you say GWF are primary tanks, then there would be also no need for a GF. If you say that a GWF can tank like a GF and dish out AoE damage, then again i ask you why people call GFs when they need a tank. They could just call a GWF who can be both a primary tank and a second AoE damage dealer.
There can't be 2 primary tanks. If that was the case, it would be another game design flaw. Each class need a specific role, which its the best at. I've not played a GF, but i don't see people looking for GWFs when they need a tank for a dungeon. Which lead me to believe, along with my personal experience with GWFs, that they are not intended to be primary tanks that "dish out some AoE damage".
Because most people, and that is a fact, don't know any better. And this may come as a shock to you, but GFs can also dps well. They both perform the same role. Stop making arguments based on YOUR idea of what should or shouldn't be. It is what it is. Why are you obsessed with the idea that each class needs to have its own unique role that no other class can fulfill? So what are you going to say when they introduce Rangers, Warlocks and whatnot? It's not like they will fill in a role that doesnt exist yet.
Now, it's quite simple: you yourself said that a 4 CW party is the best choice. Now, the best choice should be 1 of each class. Which other changes you would make to let this happen? Again, the changes to the mob justify a GF tank, a DC, a TR and a CW. Which role, in such party, a GWF in its current state would be supposed to cover, something that only they can do and that would make them the best 5th element of a party.
Answer please.
I TOTALLY disagree with your idea of what the BEST or ideal group should be. The more acceptable argument, which is actually shared by most, is that they want all classes to be equally effective. If I want to play with just a group of friends, I don't want to be forced into forming a group of 1 from each class. I would much rather have the option to run with WHATEVER mix. I dont want to tell a friend or a guildy sorry we cant take your CW/TR because we must have a GF, or vice versa. And before you get the wrong idea, I dont mean I want all classes to be able to AoE/Single Target/Heal/buff/debuff/CC. I mean I would like to see the content catering to different group mixes.
@ lobo: i was full destroyer, stunlock build (for damage first sentinel feat is better than any instigator, i know, but i wanted to try that build in PvP) then went sentinel. With the same gear, my GS raised of about 400 points. My damage is still almost the same and my survivability increased immensely. You don't really lose that much offensive capability unless you go full defensive with your gear.
I dont understand how you can come to that conclusion. A Destroyer will easily do 15-20% more damage than a Sentinel using the same gear.
22 pages, and not a single word from Devs. They really ignore this class.
Not sure about you, but I haven't seen any dev replies. Don't think that Cryptic is that kind of company, to be honest.
You might get a dev response in, say, EvE Online. But here? Doubt it.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
One of the BEST GWF's I know is Steamroller and he's a primary PvE player and built his character around PvE. He has always been 1 of 2 GWF's that do more damage than my GF in T2 runs.
All weekend I was clearing Malabog and doing between 14-16.9Mil Damage and #1 till I ran with him. He said that the class does really have to work for damage now due to the nerfs and bugged Unstoppable but he was still #1 in our run with me #2.
A properly built GWF can still do godly damage.
I agree. I've fought against him in PvP and hes a sickly opponent to deal with 1 vs 3, let alone 1 vs 1.
I know quite a fiew GWF's who are still unkillable in PvP, and very very hard to out dps in T2s.
I for one have no experience what so ever playing a GWF so I cant really comment much, just what I've seen from other people I've grouped with and fought against in pvp.
I've noticed the GWF's pre-patch that were unkillable are still the same. But lesser geared, lesser skilled GWF's I destroy like a CW with my TR.
So I'm guessing the GWF is more so now gear/skill dependant then it was pre-patch.
so a GF and a TR are saying that GWF is ok... nice. I can tell about anyone that can do anything.. in fact there are several here that stated that GWF are top damage, and i believe them as i do u! If u have a rly good ping class is scary, but have u played pvp against a gwf that has a higher ping? Is too **** funny to watch him trying to land that takedown.
If he has a perfect lightning with WMS cancellation he can put up huge dmg cause he can proc that enchant twice, but as u can imagine not all GWF can do it..same problem, is all about ping. But what about the rest who dont have invested that much? A rogue only needs a ice dagger, t1 pvp set with no stone and he can do all content with ease and the same for GF, get some cheap gear from ah and u are rdy to rock and roll, but GWF cant do that cause it has no utility and dmg is low without high end gear and enchants.
I agree. I've fought against him in PvP and hes a sickly opponent
You met one or two gwfs whom you found difficult to defeat in PvP, and that makes the whole class very ok. You know what? All the DCs are super OP in PvP, all of them without exception. I know, there is one who killed my TR alt once.
You met one or two gwfs whom you found difficult to defeat in PvP, and that makes the whole class very ok. You know what? All the DCs are super OP in PvP, all of them without exception. I know, there is one who killed my TR alt once.
Exaggerate much?
Let's cover again the point he was trying to make: he has met GWF's, post patch, who are still very hard to defeat. In fact, there are many players who say that our class is just fine (barring the lack of AP generation and unstoppable bug). This is proven in PvP, where the skill of the player, and it's combination with gear, show that GWF's are still a class to reckon with who can top the charts if we know what we're doing.
You can't blame Cryptic for bad players, or good players who have yet to adapt to changes.
But when PvE is taken into account, our class isn't the problem ... the AI and dungeon setups are. And where that is concerned, we most definitely CAN blame Cryptic. They built each dungeon to make the most use out of CW's and TR's, with everyone else (including DC's) just there as added weight. That's not the players fault. A good GWF can still wreck a T2 dungeon just fine. He just isn't NEEDED, and we're not the best tool for any job in those dungeons (add aggro management, boss slaying, tanking, etc).
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
@lobo0084 Regarding pvp, GWF is far from op as a class, blame developers for not testing enough things like regen. Also as a sentinel u need all slots with tenebrous, get a perfect thunder with perfect vorpal and 1 shot people, while being immortal. Class is ok but enchants/regen are not, cause without them u can barely live or kill anything. But when it comes to pve things change and we need ap gain... dont think there is a gwf out there that uses roar in pvp.
@lobo0084 Regarding pvp, GWF is far from op as a class, blame developers for not testing enough things like regen. Also as a sentinel u need all slots with tenebrous, get a perfect thunder with perfect vorpal and 1 shot people, while being immortal. Class is ok but enchants/regen are not, cause without them u can barely live or kill anything. But when it comes to pve things change and we need ap gain... dont think there is a gwf out there that uses roar in pvp.
Actually I see a few. Heck when I first started pvp with a pve toon I used roar. I could gain AP in a cluster fight and use a daily!
Let's cover again the point he was trying to make: he has met GWF's, post patch, who are still very hard to defeat. In fact, there are many players who say that our class is just fine (barring the lack of AP generation and unstoppable bug). This is proven in PvP, where the skill of the player, and it's combination with gear, show that GWF's are still a class to reckon with who can top the charts if we know what we're doing.
You can't blame Cryptic for bad players, or good players who have yet to adapt to changes.
But when PvE is taken into account, our class isn't the problem ... the AI and dungeon setups are. And where that is concerned, we most definitely CAN blame Cryptic. They built each dungeon to make the most use out of CW's and TR's, with everyone else (including DC's) just there as added weight. That's not the players fault. A good GWF can still wreck a T2 dungeon just fine. He just isn't NEEDED, and we're not the best tool for any job in those dungeons (add aggro management, boss slaying, tanking, etc).
@pando83 GWF as GF is a soldier class hence a tank. If u look at the skills of both classes u;ll see that one if more focused on tanking big mobs slow and that hit hard while the other is for aoe tanking with alot of mobility. Tanking with dmg is not something that should be, cause there are very few who can afford a perfect lightning enchant and a tank should be able to at least to the threat part without gear requirements. So here is the problem for my GWF sentinel, i cant generate threat cause skills are bad, always have been but now they are cut in half. When it comes to dmg specs i can assure u that GF does rly good dmg. He has the better skills of the 2 classes and his last on conqueror tree actually does something. More to support the tank aspect of the class.. we have gear sets for tanking, weapons for tanking (no clue why i dont have a weapon set for tanking, but heh is just a minor thing compared to the rest), paragon path for tanking and skills that should be for tanking.. so by all means GWF is a tank. Want GWF to have a role? make boss encounter like this... GF tanks boss, TR dps boss since btw if u look at his skills tr should hit from behind with combat advantage and it fails hard at doing that cause more often then not it is the tank, GWF tanks adds that cant be CC and do aoe dmg (see ice giants in FH) and gather up trash for a CW to kill/CC/Throw without being at risk of dieing cause mobs faced aoes towards him and ofc DC to heal/buff/debuff. Mechanics are all there!.
This is exactly what I did last night in MC (on my GF). I would tank the bosses away from everyone else so that they would avoid the cleaves, then the GWF grabbed the unCCable mobs and tanked them away from me. It worked beautifully and kept everyone perfectly safe. I thought specifically about this thread during that run and so wanted all the naysayers to be able to see how perfect the synergy was.
This is exactly what I did last night in MC (on my GF). I would tank the bosses away from everyone else so that they would avoid the cleaves, then the GWF grabbed the unCCable mobs and tanked them away from me. It worked beautifully and kept everyone perfectly safe. I thought specifically about this thread during that run and so wanted all the naysayers to be able to see how perfect the synergy was.
We ran one of each class btw.
I have a conqueror spec GF in T1 gear mostly with armor on insanity and the likes, all cheap stuff from ah, no stone and i;ve tanked malabog without any problem while doing a rly nice amount of dmg. Dunno what u are doing but that dungeon doesnt even need a tank tbh. When i;ve tried my GWF i couldnt even grab a single target cause 1 singularity or a massive aoe and all the mobs are everywhere else, and as sentinel my dmg is just above DC more like on par with it. So pls tell me again how good a gwf is! :cool:
I have a conqueror spec GF in T1 gear mostly with armor on insanity and the likes, all cheap stuff from ah, no stone and i;ve tanked malabog without any problem while doing a rly nice amount of dmg. Dunno what u are doing but that dungeon doesnt even need a tank tbh. When i;ve tried my GWF i couldnt even grab a single target cause 1 singularity or a massive aoe and all the mobs are everywhere else, and as sentinel my dmg is just above DC more like on par with it. So pls tell me again how good a gwf is! :cool:
The obvious answer is that you do not know how to play your GWF, not to mention your comment about Singularity and AoE makes no sense.
Since MC doesn't need a tank and this is just a matter of dps, then the real question is, are you honestly trying to convince us that a GF conqueror in T1, cheap gear, and no stone does more dps than a Destroyer GWF?
After several people coming on here and saying that they are tanking T2s, and still putting out good damage, why would anyone embarrass himself and writes a post about how pathetic their GWF is in comparison to X class? Aren't you in a way just saying that you haven't figured it out yet?
The obvious answer is that you do not know how to play your GWF, not to mention your comment about Singularity and AoE makes no sense.
Since MC doesn't need a tank and this is just a matter of dps, then the real question is, are you honestly trying to convince us that a GF conqueror in T1, cheap gear, and no stone does more dps than a Destroyer GWF?
After several people coming on here and saying that they are tanking T2s, and still putting out good damage, why would anyone embarrass himself and writes a post about how pathetic their GWF is in comparison to X class? Aren't you in a way just saying that you haven't figured it out yet?
I love when it gets personal like that... what can i say ?! love u too! But the topic was about ap gain so lets focus on that and not what i do.. lets say u are trying to convince me that i am wrong which can be. I want to see numbers devs/community, like threat generation and threat abilities and dmg numbers on single targets, if u have those then by all means please share otherwise u;re just trolling.
I was posting describing all i did as both destroyer and sentinel to answer you copti, plus some ideas. Then something closed the page and now i should rewrite everything. Took me too much to write it all. I'll try to explain later why going from destroyer to sentinel was overall better for me and ideas about dungeons and strategy.
I'm getting sick and tired of posts like "GWF is fine, you just need to l2p".
They are invalid, and for one very simple reason: the existence of threads like this.
You will see evidence of the SAME feat working DIFFERENTLY for different GWFs, not working as stated for some (me + whoever wrote the GWF section of the game's wiki) and working just fine for others. Who's to say that this isn't the case with other feats and skills? As long as this issue is not cleared up, one thing is for sure - the difference between satisfied and dissatisfied GWFs isn't NECESSARILY skill or lack thereof. It may as well be certain aspects of the class bugging out differently for different people, either harming or benefiting them, obviously leading to difference in performance between two GWFs that are otherwise identically skilled, geared and specced.
To make myself clear i run sentinel spec not dps spec and my main problem isnt dmg, but the fact that i cant generate ap at a rate that everyone else does. I used to run charge,roar, shout for tanking with steel defense. So when i was in my daily i did generate determination by using shout and take a few hits then i used to pop unstoppable, hit roar position for charge and another charge and daily was bk up for the next round, slam was there for the huge area of effect and slow utility. Something similar is with GF, pop supremacy of steel or fighter recovery and build up shield with your abilities, then use shield to build up ap plus frontline surge, press daily and repeat. So why a tank can still do that while the other cant? why is frontline surge generating ap while roar isnt? And threat created by dmg is something a tank should never be able to do, that means u are just too geared for the content.
I'm getting sick and tired of posts like "GWF is fine, you just need to l2p".
They are invalid, and for one very simple reason: the existence of threads like this.
You will see evidence of the SAME feat working DIFFERENTLY for different GWFs, not working as stated for some (me + whoever wrote the GWF section of the game's wiki) and working just fine for others. Who's to say that this isn't the case with other feats and skills? As long as this issue is not cleared up, one thing is for sure - the difference between satisfied and dissatisfied GWFs isn't NECESSARILY skill or lack thereof. It may as well be certain aspects of the class bugging out differently for different people, either harming or benefiting them, obviously leading to difference in performance between two GWFs that are otherwise identically skilled, geared and specced.
BUT ... when a group of players come out and say "this is broken and our class can no longer function", and another handful of players are consistently topping charts, running CN/MC just fine and kicking butt in PvP, with the very same class that they are saying is broke ... what do you call that?
Oh, their opinion and experiences are simply invalid because ... what?
Our class definitely has problems. Namely, AP gain and Unstoppable bugging. But in my experiences, it's not broken and it's still effective and strong. I have that opinion because when I play, my character is not broken and is still doing what he's supposed to do. Just because I'm not as superior as I once was (which Cryptic and many other classes obviously thought was overpowered and breaking the balance of the game), doesn't mean I'm not superior now.
From my perspective, it seems more likely that players are complaining because the OP class they once had has been reduced to a regularly powerful class, and instead of working to improve their game and adapting with the class, they decided to trash their GWF's and complain about it ... loudly ... hoping against all logic and reason that their tantrum will get them what they want.
I have that perspective, and opinion, after watching almost two decades of MMO forums. 'Squeaky wheel gets the grease.' The average poster is NOT trying to be fair and balanced, but is incredibly biased and sometimes even outright malicious in destroying what others have or gaining more for themselves. They'll ask to nerf everyone else's class, and buff their own. Who is to know what quality of person sits behind that keyboard. Could be an immature person incapable of logic and reason. Heaven's knows there are so many of them anonymously stalking the internet that a good dozen of them could end up here.
And you can tell when someone has a good, thought out argument, too. The words they use, the points and counterpoints they make, etc. Trash talking, yelling, base accusations and denials? That's not a solid foundation, and someone who likes to debate like myself will continue to destroy the soapbox they stand on because they don't have two real facts to rub together.
When players point out specific instances, like what you are linking, it is an issue that Cryptic should settle. IF they can figure out if it's actually happening (remember, players aren't all saints and many lie *gasp*). Or WHEN they can figure out what's causing it (remember, devs are sometimes staring the problem right in the face and don't know it).
Plus, wouldn't the game, each time you log in, figure those attributes and possibly bug out? Wouldn't even the 'good' GWF's notice really bad days when everything isn't working for them? How could it bug out on an individual basis, if it's a random occurrence ... if it IS a random occurrence, who knows?
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
BUT ... when a group of players come out and say "this is broken and our class can no longer function", and another handful of players are consistently topping charts, running CN/MC just fine and kicking butt in PvP, with the very same class that they are saying is broke ... what do you call that?
Oh, their opinion and experiences are simply invalid because ... what?
Our class definitely has problems. Namely, AP gain and Unstoppable bugging. But in my experiences, it's not broken and it's still effective and strong. I have that opinion because when I play, my character is not broken and is still doing what he's supposed to do. Just because I'm not as superior as I once was (which Cryptic and many other classes obviously thought was overpowered and breaking the balance of the game), doesn't mean I'm not superior now.
From my perspective, it seems more likely that players are complaining because the OP class they once had has been reduced to a regularly powerful class, and instead of working to improve their game and adapting with the class, they decided to trash their GWF's and complain about it ... loudly ... hoping against all logic and reason that their tantrum will get them what they want.
I have that perspective, and opinion, after watching almost two decades of MMO forums. 'Squeaky wheel gets the grease.' The average poster is NOT trying to be fair and balanced, but is incredibly biased and sometimes even outright malicious in destroying what others have or gaining more for themselves. They'll ask to nerf everyone else's class, and buff their own. Who is to know what quality of person sits behind that keyboard. Could be an immature person incapable of logic and reason. Heaven's knows there are so many of them anonymously stalking the internet that a good dozen of them could end up here.
And you can tell when someone has a good, thought out argument, too. The words they use, the points and counterpoints they make, etc. Trash talking, yelling, base accusations and denials? That's not a solid foundation, and someone who likes to debate like myself will continue to destroy the soapbox they stand on because they don't have two real facts to rub together.
When players point out specific instances, like what you are linking, it is an issue that Cryptic should settle. IF they can figure out if it's actually happening (remember, players aren't all saints and many lie *gasp*). Or WHEN they can figure out what's causing it (remember, devs are sometimes staring the problem right in the face and don't know it).
Plus, wouldn't the game, each time you log in, figure those attributes and possibly bug out? Wouldn't even the 'good' GWF's notice really bad days when everything isn't working for them? How could it bug out on an individual basis, if it's a random occurrence ... if it IS a random occurrence, who knows?
To be honest, the discussion in this thread has never been if GWF are able or not to run CN/MC or fight in PvP. I myself stated multiple times that i'm doing fine, even with unstoppable bugged and nerfed, and slam nerfed.
The issue is, again, that GWF are seen as useless in epic dungeons and often left out from the dungeons. With the exception of people playing with friends and guilds. Most of the experiences you read from people saying "i'm doing fine" is from them running this or that dungeons with friends and guilds. On the other side, in game you see that most people forming a dungeon party 90% of the times look for the other classes, or refuse to join a GWF, or quit if a GWF is joined in. And the reason is Always the same: it's not needed.
Now, i've read many suggestions and strategies that surely could work. But again: right now the GWF is marked as unuseful. And the complaints are a CONSEQUENCE of this. Changing dungeon design, AI, mobs, surely would help. Still it's cryptic choice to let player push mobs out of a Cliff. Where do you put a GWF in such a dungeon?
Kidbs also described a good strategy where the GWF tank the cc resistant mobs, the GF tanks the boss from the front and the TR tanks the boss from behind for best damage.
All good and nice. Now go out there and convince all those players that the GWF role is that particular tank for cc-resistant mobs and that a GF is the one that tank a boss while the TR deals damage from behind.
What i try to say is that right now you've to come up with something very basic, simple and effective, that would make people realize how a party formed with 1 from each class is the best and fastest choice.
I mean, the change shoud really be heavy. Like that if even a class is missed, the run is MUCH slower. Cause else people will stick to the current strategy.
That's why i talked about a clear role as "main something" for the GWF. But since the problem is just to be the GWF wanted and needed in a dungeon party, anything is fine. I went for the AoE DPS cause the last dev message talked about making GWFs effective at AoE DPS (buff to spinning strike and slam transformed into a utility).
We don't really care if it's a buff or a change in dungeon design/AI/ mobs. Just need cryptic to make the GWFs ****ing CLEARLY needed in a dungeon so that we can find a party like any other class. Right now only invitations to CN i got from queue were from people that for some reason invited me then left me alone into the dungeon and disappeared.
When i read people looking for someone in chat for a CN run it's ALWAYS a TR, or a DC, or a CW, or a GF. Never read so far someone writing "need a GWF for CN run". Or any other epic dungeon btw.
When i said that the "push mobs out of the Cliff" mechaninc was stupid i got laughed at, called ****, and said "the devs made it like that on purpose".
T>ry to change the things as they are now just explaining people alternative strategies. I doubt it would work.
then go to my central argument: I'll talk about my build especially as destroyer / pve I am:
I made a character with high recovery, keeping in mind the possibility of using the slam as much as possible. Why? Why feat" Battle Awareness "gives +25% strength when the slam is active.
Besides losing slam 2s duration, it is now no longer the option of damage. this feat, not I, A FEAT, misread yourself. For the sentinel okay; "Defiance" gave defense and now slam gives even more (perfect, super tank). But for the destroyer?
I can "adapt myself" - in fact I have already adapted - but this was a potential that was lost was the nature of the destroyer. This is much more than just losing strength.
Now look at that curious; destroyer of a hypothetical high recovery and has Relentless Battle Fury 5/5 (reduces Cooldown of the Roar, Takedown, and Battle Fury by 5/10/15/20/25%.) Could very well use battle fury + roar in cn and amend slam on the other, which would be brutal considering feets as "steel defense (After activating the daily power, become immune to damage for 3 seconds. 2 Rank: Buff duration: +1 s. 3 Rank: Buff duration : +1 s.)
see that even this possibility super unbalanced meant a preference for gwf in cn. So what is the purpose of taking the gain ap gwf? Call it conspiracy theory, but it's obvious that the idea is to remove the class of the game.
To be honest, the discussion in this thread has never been if GWF are able or not to run CN/MC or fight in PvP. I myself stated multiple times that i'm doing fine, even with unstoppable bugged and nerfed, and slam nerfed.
The issue is, again, that GWF are seen as useless in epic dungeons and often left out from the dungeons. With the exception of people playing with friends and guilds. Most of the experiences you read from people saying "i'm doing fine" is from them running this or that dungeons with friends and guilds. On the other side, in game you see that most people forming a dungeon party 90% of the times look for the other classes, or refuse to join a GWF, or quit if a GWF is joined in. And the reason is Always the same: it's not needed.
Now, i've read many suggestions and strategies that surely could work. But again: right now the GWF is marked as unuseful. And the complaints are a CONSEQUENCE of this. Changing dungeon design, AI, mobs, surely would help. Still it's cryptic choice to let player push mobs out of a Cliff. Where do you put a GWF in such a dungeon?
Kidbs also described a good strategy where the GWF tank the cc resistant mobs, the GF tanks the boss from the front and the TR tanks the boss from behind for best damage.
All good and nice. Now go out there and convince all those players that the GWF role is that particular tank for cc-resistant mobs and that a GF is the one that tank a boss while the TR deals damage from behind.
What i try to say is that right now you've to come up with something very basic, simple and effective, that would make people realize how a party formed with 1 from each class is the best and fastest choice.
I mean, the change shoud really be heavy. Like that if even a class is missed, the run is MUCH slower. Cause else people will stick to the current strategy.
That's why i talked about a clear role as "main something" for the GWF. But since the problem is just to be the GWF wanted and needed in a dungeon party, anything is fine. I went for the AoE DPS cause the last dev message talked about making GWFs effective at AoE DPS (buff to spinning strike and slam transformed into a utility).
We don't really care if it's a buff or a change in dungeon design/AI/ mobs. Just need cryptic to make the GWFs ****ing CLEARLY needed in a dungeon so that we can find a party like any other class. Right now only invitations to CN i got from queue were from people that for some reason invited me then left me alone into the dungeon and disappeared.
When i read people looking for someone in chat for a CN run it's ALWAYS a TR, or a DC, or a CW, or a GF. Never read so far someone writing "need a GWF for CN run". Or any other epic dungeon btw.
When i said that the "push mobs out of the Cliff" mechaninc was stupid i got laughed at, called ****, and said "the devs made it like that on purpose".
T>ry to change the things as they are now just explaining people alternative strategies. I doubt it would work.
+1
(seem to hard for alot to get this so veryyyyyy hard)
You don't top charts, at least not if someone that can play and has gear is in your group on another class. Its not the fact that you "can't" run a dungeon, its just the fact that if you bring another class instead of GWF you will have an easier/faster time. I have run with some of the best players on dragon server as both my GWF and my CW, the runs get done faster as my CW because they just bring more to the party. As much as i want to like my GWF it seems cryptic did not want to listen to what players wanted nerfed them into a pure tank (not needed role) and then nerfed them again with AP gain. Personally i never made my GWF to be a full time tank, the role is useless, I also never made my CW to be the full time dps that it is, but since no other class in the game can touch my CW for damage + if i need i can slot control why not. The reason people have complained so much about GWF dps is because its abysmal. Top tier gear + enchant vs another class and you cant compare it. So you now have a class that the majority of players feel is supposed to be a DPS that has enough survivability to afford getting smacked around relegated to a useless role. On top of that the melee mechanic is A LOT more difficult to use than range, throw in higher AOE dps and more control on other classes and what reason would you bring in a GWF?
People keep talking about survivability of the GWF, guess what, its not hard to survive ANY dungeon EVER on any single class. If you cant then you fail. GWF have traded off to much for what little they are left with. That is the reason people do not want them in groups.
Range + higher AOE + control + dodges greatly outweigh the survivability of a GWF.
If you have a class that is the best of 2 things and one class that is the second best of one thing, exactly why bring the second?
People keep trying to say "ohh they need to change the dungeons" thats great and all but when you say that you are saying its OK to screw the class for now until they change the ENTIRE DUNGEON MECHANIC around just to suit one class.... yeah great thinking, ESPECIALLY with cryptic's track record of changing anything for the better.
Would it not be better to change the class into something useful for now and down the road if they ever get their thumbs out of their asses to change the class to how the dungeons run then?
Comments
Much is made of the players that exclude gwf of partys. The VAST MAJORITY of these players are not good either. Since my 9/10k without allure or something, I took many of them in the back, and only at the end of dungeons due recognition.
Now if you know how to prepare a building, you will realize that there is a CLEAR disadvantage of this class to all the other, a disadvantage which has increased even more due to this **** pvp.
* I will insist on this suggestion: in addition to reverse this nonsense they did with the "roar", add the possibility of "steel bitz" cause "interupt". This change, for those who understand what entails not only increase damage gwf as the rogues.
Now why can't Devs have half your common sense. These are the type of solutions/discussions that need to be discussed on the forums.
@copti: i never said it's a cospiracy, you wrote a lot of bs about what i meant with my statement, but that's your problem. I just said that to me you look more concerned about preserving the current CW status than solving the issue. Never said you want to "sabotage" anything, and reading that was quite pathetic. Also: i play a GWF and tested both destroyer and sentinel. Sure there's people that know how a GWF works better than me, but i've also read assumptions made by you and kidbs that are out of reality and that lead me to say that you talk about speculations and not actual experience.
I started to reply to you both using the tooltips just cause you obviously didn't trust a single thing a said, so i was trying to bring in a 3rd source of info. Looks like you don't believe devs too.
All i can say is that if as you say GWF are primary tanks, then there would be also no need for a GF. If you say that a GWF can tank like a GF and dish out AoE damage, then again i ask you why people call GFs when they need a tank. They could just call a GWF who can be both a primary tank and a second AoE damage dealer.
There can't be 2 primary tanks. If that was the case, it would be another game design flaw. Each class need a specific role, which its the best at. I've not played a GF, but i don't see people looking for GWFs when they need a tank for a dungeon. Which lead me to believe, along with my personal experience with GWFs, that they are not intended to be primary tanks that "dish out some AoE damage".
Now, it's quite simple: you yourself said that a 4 CW party is the best choice. Now, the best choice should be 1 of each class. Which other changes you would make to let this happen? Again, the changes to the mob justify a GF tank, a DC, a TR and a CW. Which role, in such party, a GWF in its current state would be supposed to cover, something that only they can do and that would make them the best 5th element of a party.
Answer please.
@ lobo: i was full destroyer, stunlock build (for damage first sentinel feat is better than any instigator, i know, but i wanted to try that build in PvP) then went sentinel. With the same gear, my GS raised of about 400 points. My damage is still almost the same and my survivability increased immensely. You don't really lose that much offensive capability unless you go full defensive with your gear.
* 1 - perhaps these changes do not meet the expectations of the general public, I must confess that what attracts me most here is that dynamic "hack and slash" multiplayer.
* 2 - this would be a future project for hypothetical dungeons to be launched in the coming years.
For now, it makes no sense to argue about what the game could be, but on what he intends to be actually TODAY. Within what he intended to be TODAY;
* 1 - Classes are uneven, and the gap only increases as a function of the pvp, the antithesis of the above proposal.
2 - before certain bugs, imagine that redo artificial intelligence is a distant dream.
You keep making the same incorrect assumption about Destroyer not being able to handle tanking. People like me, ARE telling you that it is done, and I do it everyday, ANY T2, any epic mobs, 10+ mobs, Boss + adds, mini boss + adds, Spellplague last phase with a gazillion adds. And before you assume I am in some kind of tricked out GWF, here are my stats:
1850 Defense, 460 deflect, 720 regen, 1570 Life Steal.
So between my natural DR, Unstoppable, Daring Shout, Astral Shield, Foresight, Divine Armor, Hallowed Ground, any 1-2 combinations of these effects and even a Destroyer will cap the Damage Resistance 90% of the time easily. Add to that 10% Life Steal on a spammable AoE At-Will and you got yourself a great tank, that not only has awesome survivability but also generate good aggro.
I really don't know what to say. I am relaying MY own experience of the class. I am not making assumptions or speculating ANYTHING. You can assume I run with poorly geared/skilled players, and you can assume that I have 15k GS with perfect vorpal/lightning/whatever, but when I say that I tank and also do good dps then that's exactly what I do, and I run with other GWFs that do it just as well if not better. Now I could be completely lying about it, I may not even have a GWF like some insightful person said, which would of course go great with the idea that I am concerned about my CW's status. lol I never said I don't trust what you said. I totally believe that you are giving an opinion based on YOUR experience. All I am telling you is that not all GWF players share the same experience.
Because most people, and that is a fact, don't know any better. And this may come as a shock to you, but GFs can also dps well. They both perform the same role. Stop making arguments based on YOUR idea of what should or shouldn't be. It is what it is. Why are you obsessed with the idea that each class needs to have its own unique role that no other class can fulfill? So what are you going to say when they introduce Rangers, Warlocks and whatnot? It's not like they will fill in a role that doesnt exist yet.
I TOTALLY disagree with your idea of what the BEST or ideal group should be. The more acceptable argument, which is actually shared by most, is that they want all classes to be equally effective. If I want to play with just a group of friends, I don't want to be forced into forming a group of 1 from each class. I would much rather have the option to run with WHATEVER mix. I dont want to tell a friend or a guildy sorry we cant take your CW/TR because we must have a GF, or vice versa. And before you get the wrong idea, I dont mean I want all classes to be able to AoE/Single Target/Heal/buff/debuff/CC. I mean I would like to see the content catering to different group mixes.
I dont understand how you can come to that conclusion. A Destroyer will easily do 15-20% more damage than a Sentinel using the same gear.
Not sure about you, but I haven't seen any dev replies. Don't think that Cryptic is that kind of company, to be honest.
You might get a dev response in, say, EvE Online. But here? Doubt it.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
No you just need to be a TR and post that your stealth is bugging. You will get an answer the same day.
I agree. I've fought against him in PvP and hes a sickly opponent to deal with 1 vs 3, let alone 1 vs 1.
I know quite a fiew GWF's who are still unkillable in PvP, and very very hard to out dps in T2s.
I for one have no experience what so ever playing a GWF so I cant really comment much, just what I've seen from other people I've grouped with and fought against in pvp.
I've noticed the GWF's pre-patch that were unkillable are still the same. But lesser geared, lesser skilled GWF's I destroy like a CW with my TR.
So I'm guessing the GWF is more so now gear/skill dependant then it was pre-patch.
If he has a perfect lightning with WMS cancellation he can put up huge dmg cause he can proc that enchant twice, but as u can imagine not all GWF can do it..same problem, is all about ping. But what about the rest who dont have invested that much? A rogue only needs a ice dagger, t1 pvp set with no stone and he can do all content with ease and the same for GF, get some cheap gear from ah and u are rdy to rock and roll, but GWF cant do that cause it has no utility and dmg is low without high end gear and enchants.
You met one or two gwfs whom you found difficult to defeat in PvP, and that makes the whole class very ok. You know what? All the DCs are super OP in PvP, all of them without exception. I know, there is one who killed my TR alt once.
Exaggerate much?
Let's cover again the point he was trying to make: he has met GWF's, post patch, who are still very hard to defeat. In fact, there are many players who say that our class is just fine (barring the lack of AP generation and unstoppable bug). This is proven in PvP, where the skill of the player, and it's combination with gear, show that GWF's are still a class to reckon with who can top the charts if we know what we're doing.
You can't blame Cryptic for bad players, or good players who have yet to adapt to changes.
But when PvE is taken into account, our class isn't the problem ... the AI and dungeon setups are. And where that is concerned, we most definitely CAN blame Cryptic. They built each dungeon to make the most use out of CW's and TR's, with everyone else (including DC's) just there as added weight. That's not the players fault. A good GWF can still wreck a T2 dungeon just fine. He just isn't NEEDED, and we're not the best tool for any job in those dungeons (add aggro management, boss slaying, tanking, etc).
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Actually I see a few. Heck when I first started pvp with a pve toon I used roar. I could gain AP in a cluster fight and use a daily!
Now I get 1 maybe 3 dailies in an entire match.
Finally, someone who gets it.
This is exactly what I did last night in MC (on my GF). I would tank the bosses away from everyone else so that they would avoid the cleaves, then the GWF grabbed the unCCable mobs and tanked them away from me. It worked beautifully and kept everyone perfectly safe. I thought specifically about this thread during that run and so wanted all the naysayers to be able to see how perfect the synergy was.
We ran one of each class btw.
I have a conqueror spec GF in T1 gear mostly with armor on insanity and the likes, all cheap stuff from ah, no stone and i;ve tanked malabog without any problem while doing a rly nice amount of dmg. Dunno what u are doing but that dungeon doesnt even need a tank tbh. When i;ve tried my GWF i couldnt even grab a single target cause 1 singularity or a massive aoe and all the mobs are everywhere else, and as sentinel my dmg is just above DC more like on par with it. So pls tell me again how good a gwf is! :cool:
The obvious answer is that you do not know how to play your GWF, not to mention your comment about Singularity and AoE makes no sense.
Since MC doesn't need a tank and this is just a matter of dps, then the real question is, are you honestly trying to convince us that a GF conqueror in T1, cheap gear, and no stone does more dps than a Destroyer GWF?
After several people coming on here and saying that they are tanking T2s, and still putting out good damage, why would anyone embarrass himself and writes a post about how pathetic their GWF is in comparison to X class? Aren't you in a way just saying that you haven't figured it out yet?
I love when it gets personal like that... what can i say ?! love u too! But the topic was about ap gain so lets focus on that and not what i do.. lets say u are trying to convince me that i am wrong which can be. I want to see numbers devs/community, like threat generation and threat abilities and dmg numbers on single targets, if u have those then by all means please share otherwise u;re just trolling.
They are invalid, and for one very simple reason: the existence of threads like this.
You will see evidence of the SAME feat working DIFFERENTLY for different GWFs, not working as stated for some (me + whoever wrote the GWF section of the game's wiki) and working just fine for others. Who's to say that this isn't the case with other feats and skills? As long as this issue is not cleared up, one thing is for sure - the difference between satisfied and dissatisfied GWFs isn't NECESSARILY skill or lack thereof. It may as well be certain aspects of the class bugging out differently for different people, either harming or benefiting them, obviously leading to difference in performance between two GWFs that are otherwise identically skilled, geared and specced.
BUT ... when a group of players come out and say "this is broken and our class can no longer function", and another handful of players are consistently topping charts, running CN/MC just fine and kicking butt in PvP, with the very same class that they are saying is broke ... what do you call that?
Oh, their opinion and experiences are simply invalid because ... what?
Our class definitely has problems. Namely, AP gain and Unstoppable bugging. But in my experiences, it's not broken and it's still effective and strong. I have that opinion because when I play, my character is not broken and is still doing what he's supposed to do. Just because I'm not as superior as I once was (which Cryptic and many other classes obviously thought was overpowered and breaking the balance of the game), doesn't mean I'm not superior now.
From my perspective, it seems more likely that players are complaining because the OP class they once had has been reduced to a regularly powerful class, and instead of working to improve their game and adapting with the class, they decided to trash their GWF's and complain about it ... loudly ... hoping against all logic and reason that their tantrum will get them what they want.
I have that perspective, and opinion, after watching almost two decades of MMO forums. 'Squeaky wheel gets the grease.' The average poster is NOT trying to be fair and balanced, but is incredibly biased and sometimes even outright malicious in destroying what others have or gaining more for themselves. They'll ask to nerf everyone else's class, and buff their own. Who is to know what quality of person sits behind that keyboard. Could be an immature person incapable of logic and reason. Heaven's knows there are so many of them anonymously stalking the internet that a good dozen of them could end up here.
And you can tell when someone has a good, thought out argument, too. The words they use, the points and counterpoints they make, etc. Trash talking, yelling, base accusations and denials? That's not a solid foundation, and someone who likes to debate like myself will continue to destroy the soapbox they stand on because they don't have two real facts to rub together.
When players point out specific instances, like what you are linking, it is an issue that Cryptic should settle. IF they can figure out if it's actually happening (remember, players aren't all saints and many lie *gasp*). Or WHEN they can figure out what's causing it (remember, devs are sometimes staring the problem right in the face and don't know it).
Plus, wouldn't the game, each time you log in, figure those attributes and possibly bug out? Wouldn't even the 'good' GWF's notice really bad days when everything isn't working for them? How could it bug out on an individual basis, if it's a random occurrence ... if it IS a random occurrence, who knows?
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
To be honest, the discussion in this thread has never been if GWF are able or not to run CN/MC or fight in PvP. I myself stated multiple times that i'm doing fine, even with unstoppable bugged and nerfed, and slam nerfed.
The issue is, again, that GWF are seen as useless in epic dungeons and often left out from the dungeons. With the exception of people playing with friends and guilds. Most of the experiences you read from people saying "i'm doing fine" is from them running this or that dungeons with friends and guilds. On the other side, in game you see that most people forming a dungeon party 90% of the times look for the other classes, or refuse to join a GWF, or quit if a GWF is joined in. And the reason is Always the same: it's not needed.
Now, i've read many suggestions and strategies that surely could work. But again: right now the GWF is marked as unuseful. And the complaints are a CONSEQUENCE of this. Changing dungeon design, AI, mobs, surely would help. Still it's cryptic choice to let player push mobs out of a Cliff. Where do you put a GWF in such a dungeon?
Kidbs also described a good strategy where the GWF tank the cc resistant mobs, the GF tanks the boss from the front and the TR tanks the boss from behind for best damage.
All good and nice. Now go out there and convince all those players that the GWF role is that particular tank for cc-resistant mobs and that a GF is the one that tank a boss while the TR deals damage from behind.
What i try to say is that right now you've to come up with something very basic, simple and effective, that would make people realize how a party formed with 1 from each class is the best and fastest choice.
I mean, the change shoud really be heavy. Like that if even a class is missed, the run is MUCH slower. Cause else people will stick to the current strategy.
That's why i talked about a clear role as "main something" for the GWF. But since the problem is just to be the GWF wanted and needed in a dungeon party, anything is fine. I went for the AoE DPS cause the last dev message talked about making GWFs effective at AoE DPS (buff to spinning strike and slam transformed into a utility).
We don't really care if it's a buff or a change in dungeon design/AI/ mobs. Just need cryptic to make the GWFs ****ing CLEARLY needed in a dungeon so that we can find a party like any other class. Right now only invitations to CN i got from queue were from people that for some reason invited me then left me alone into the dungeon and disappeared.
When i read people looking for someone in chat for a CN run it's ALWAYS a TR, or a DC, or a CW, or a GF. Never read so far someone writing "need a GWF for CN run". Or any other epic dungeon btw.
When i said that the "push mobs out of the Cliff" mechaninc was stupid i got laughed at, called ****, and said "the devs made it like that on purpose".
T>ry to change the things as they are now just explaining people alternative strategies. I doubt it would work.
I made a character with high recovery, keeping in mind the possibility of using the slam as much as possible. Why? Why feat" Battle Awareness "gives +25% strength when the slam is active.
Besides losing slam 2s duration, it is now no longer the option of damage. this feat, not I, A FEAT, misread yourself. For the sentinel okay; "Defiance" gave defense and now slam gives even more (perfect, super tank). But for the destroyer?
I can "adapt myself" - in fact I have already adapted - but this was a potential that was lost was the nature of the destroyer. This is much more than just losing strength.
see that even this possibility super unbalanced meant a preference for gwf in cn. So what is the purpose of taking the gain ap gwf? Call it conspiracy theory, but it's obvious that the idea is to remove the class of the game.
+1
(seem to hard for alot to get this so veryyyyyy hard)
People keep talking about survivability of the GWF, guess what, its not hard to survive ANY dungeon EVER on any single class. If you cant then you fail. GWF have traded off to much for what little they are left with. That is the reason people do not want them in groups.
Range + higher AOE + control + dodges greatly outweigh the survivability of a GWF.
If you have a class that is the best of 2 things and one class that is the second best of one thing, exactly why bring the second?
People keep trying to say "ohh they need to change the dungeons" thats great and all but when you say that you are saying its OK to screw the class for now until they change the ENTIRE DUNGEON MECHANIC around just to suit one class.... yeah great thinking, ESPECIALLY with cryptic's track record of changing anything for the better.
Would it not be better to change the class into something useful for now and down the road if they ever get their thumbs out of their asses to change the class to how the dungeons run then?