You might want to review your thoughts on it. CW are stuck with tanking because they out damage EVERYONE. you pull TO MUCH AGGRO vs everyone else. GWF survivability isnt the only thing im talking about when i say they are melee, tell you what go try and hit a squirrel with a stick (GWF), then try using a BB gun (CW), which is easier? same thing with this game, and the beatings the GWF can take dont amount to much after the nerf (remember GWF HAVE to take the beatings a CW can port away or CC them)
Yes many of us are stuck on the original wording of the class because THATS WHAT IT STILL SAYS and if a group wants utility they would grab a CW. the ONLY thing a GWF honestly brought to the fight was AOE damage If you say utility your a moron( there is a reason most CN runs are 3 CW 1 DC 1 TR) so saying GWF are just one of the AOE classes of the game makes them meaningless ins parties when they only brought AOE and another class does it better AND brings more utility.
now get off your **** high horse im not attacking CW I DO NOT WANT THEM NERFED.
I want people to WANT to bring GWF to the party, and not just 1 as a pity spot. If you can almost always get 3 spots for a dungeon with no problem then WHY THE HELL DO I HAVE TO FIGHT FOR MY 1 SPOT???
Tanks are not needed in the game, stop trying to make us into a pitiful tank, Give us the ability to do TOP DPS Damage or get rid of the class. CW should NOT hold TOP DPS and TOP utility while GWF hold .... umm <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dps and ... umm <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> utility. If you believe otherwise you are deluded.
I've said repeatedly that gwfs need damage buffs and thread buffs so that they actually bring utility. MC is much easier when there is a tank holding much of the mob threat. I know that I can hold threat against CWs on my GF but I've yet to meet a GWF that can hold threat from my CW. That is definitely one area that needs to be addressed and part of the utility that you are supposed to bring to a group.
The only reason I responded to your post was that you kept saying GWFs deserve to out damage CWs rather than just being on par with them. You then made up silly reasons as to why. GWFs can take a good beating and survive things that would one-shot CWs. This is why you are melee and CWs are squishy. Dodging alone won't save a CW especially if they are being focused by a mob using ranged attacks on top of the normal red circles and cones that we have to avoid.
Again I'm all for buffing GWFs. Just stop asking to be THE top dogs in AoE and realize that multiple classes share the AoE realm.
The problem is there are only room for 4 roles in a party and they're taken by GF, DC, CW and TR. PW split the fighter into 2 and gave the GWF what was left. They do decent 1 on 1 damage, can tank a bit and are pretty good at AoE. Problem is, other classes are better than them at one these.
I've done runs with some really good GWFs and they've been a real asset, stepping in to a role when one of the specialist classes was struggling - taking out the boss if the TR isn't up to it, or clearing out mobs when I've got overwhelmed, taking some of my aggro when the GF has gone missing.
I have a GWF alt and find it way harder than my CW main. As a CW I know my role (and DPS is one of those roles - killing stuff is the ultimate CC, we've even got a paragon path based on damage, though I'm not going to tell you whether it's the thaum or rene tree for fear of starting CW arguments ).
Personally I like having a GWF in the party. I'm just glad it's not me :P
Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW
Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?
I've said repeatedly that gwfs need damage buffs and thread buffs so that they actually bring utility. MC is much easier when there is a tank holding much of the mob threat. I know that I can hold threat against CWs on my GF but I've yet to meet a GWF that can hold threat from my CW. That is definitely one area that needs to be addressed and part of the utility that you are supposed to bring to a group.
The only reason I responded to your post was that you kept saying GWFs deserve to out damage CWs rather than just being on par with them. You then made up silly reasons as to why. GWFs can take a good beating and survive things that would one-shot CWs. This is why you are melee and CWs are squishy. Dodging alone won't save a CW especially if they are being focused by a mob using ranged attacks on top of the normal red circles and cones that we have to avoid.
Again I'm all for buffing GWFs. Just stop asking to be THE top dogs in AoE and realize that multiple classes share the AoE realm.
No Kidbs, i've yet to have anything 1 shot my CW that i cant easily dodge out of and CW are not as squishy as you would like to lead people to believe. You seem to think that because a GWF can take a bit more damage then they should only do the same damage as a CW? Why bring a GWF at that point? CW offer RANGE, dodge, DPS, CC. GWF offer sup par DPS at MELEE RANGE so in order to do any damage they will take a lot of it, almost NO CC, no dodge. So YES they should do more damage than a CW. Give me a good reason why they should not. I am very much saying that GWF should ALWAYS be the TOP AOE DPS, as they put in a lot more risk as well as have to move around a lot more than a CW to do said dps. It really is easy to tell who has a CW main, I know you are enjoying your TOP DPS and TOP Utility that your class brings at the moment, but guess what, that makes other classes USELESS. If you look at it this way (if you played some old rpg games) think of the power of the class like a bar graph from 1-10. CW would look like this
Damage 8/10
Range 10/10
Control 10/10
Health 5/10
escape tools 7/10
While a GWF would look like this
Damage 4/10 - 6/10
Range 0/10
Control 1/10
Health 6/10 - 10/10
escape tools 1/10
put that in a bar graph and overlay the two. In picking a class in an old school RPG there is no way in hell i would pick the second, the first does everything better, and more that the second cant do, with minimal loss of other things.
You still have blue, move along kid and let the the big boys discuss our class, LOL, oh, and if you ask my GS i'm 13.6k. THere is big difference before and after the patch and if you can't feel it, go play more.
I find this really funny.....they don't seem to have a problem and are enjoying themselves. You make fun of them for having blue items still....maybe you simply should not expect to be "unstoppable" and run through epic dungeons like a god? I think you cutting them down was in poor form. I don't know much about GWF but I have read a few people say they still feel godly....A GWF in my guild still completely destroys people in PvP....so much as he almost felt stronger....he respected into some new build?? Anyways....good for you Noroblad for still enjoying your class:)
Bkloes if he feels stronger its because he is playing vs scrubs. people in green gear vs maybe someone with bis and r8+ gear of course you feel godly, but guess what my CW eats entire teams of scrubs for breakfast and can poof away if i need.
Bkloes if he feels stronger its because he is playing vs scrubs. people in green gear vs maybe someone with bis and r8+ gear of course you feel godly, but guess what my CW eats entire teams of scrubs for breakfast and can poof away if i need.
y so many people in greens,blues much more then before.sometimes i look their gear and fell bad coz i killed them lol.
New players, the vast majority of old players have since quit, after all the horrible nerfs and people saw the game was not just staying the same but getting worse they went to greener pastures. To many new games coming out to interest people to be playing one where the devs dont seem to have a clue. They had a good idea with the game, but crip and PW have gotten beyond greedy with it.
I am sure there are sometimes scrubs...but its the same L60 PvP that he was playing prior to any changes....maybe he just didn't follow the "unstoppable build that got nerfed." Anyways.....it doesn't really matter I was just posting because I felt it was lame to put down someone who was still enjoying what they were doing.
How do you look at other peoples gear? I have wondered about this..I can see my team but what about other team?
I am sure there are sometimes scrubs...but its the same L60 PvP that he was playing prior to any changes....maybe he just didn't follow the "unstoppable build that got nerfed." Anyways.....it doesn't really matter I was just posting because I felt it was lame to put down someone who was still enjoying what they were doing.
How do you look at other peoples gear? I have wondered about this..I can see my team but what about other team?
nah you cant equip with 20 k all purple like before and throw some enchants even coz BOP.prices a crazy in ah and you cant make so much glory before lvl 60 and after they just lose.
No Kidbs, i've yet to have anything 1 shot my CW that i cant easily dodge out of and CW are not as squishy as you would like to lead people to believe. You seem to think that because a GWF can take a bit more damage then they should only do the same damage as a CW? Why bring a GWF at that point? CW offer RANGE, dodge, DPS, CC. GWF offer sup par DPS at MELEE RANGE so in order to do any damage they will take a lot of it, almost NO CC, no dodge. So YES they should do more damage than a CW. Give me a good reason why they should not. I am very much saying that GWF should ALWAYS be the TOP AOE DPS, as they put in a lot more risk as well as have to move around a lot more than a CW to do said dps. It really is easy to tell who has a CW main, I know you are enjoying your TOP DPS and TOP Utility that your class brings at the moment, but guess what, that makes other classes USELESS. If you look at it this way (if you played some old rpg games) think of the power of the class like a bar graph from 1-10. CW would look like this
Damage 8/10
Range 10/10
Control 10/10
Health 5/10
escape tools 7/10
While a GWF would look like this
Damage 4/10 - 6/10
Range 0/10
Control 1/10
Health 6/10 - 10/10
escape tools 1/10
put that in a bar graph and overlay the two. In picking a class in an old school RPG there is no way in hell i would pick the second, the first does everything better, and more that the second cant do, with minimal loss of other things.
Keep being disappointed then b/c it's apparent that Cryptic doesn't share your views. I play a 16k GF as well so I know what it's like to fight in the thick of things and I don't expect that he should do more dps than my CW simply b/c he is in melee. You don't just want to be viable... You want to be a god and it ain't happening.
This is not going to end, is it? all this complaining... just learn to play your character and roleplay... today I run destro GWF in Malebog castle and in the end I was 2 milion DMG (16 mil vs. 14 mil.) ahead of our good exec TR (we are at the same gear level). With old slam and working AOE AP generation it would be no competition whatsoever. We also run without GF, so I do aggro and tank as well. This is what the description of our class is. I like this versatility of this class, as it can readily jump into different roles.
So what is wrong with you people? E.g. Slam nerf made me to find another daily (namely avalanche of steel) as well, which is very handy, when used well and in team play (my team already expects me to use it and find it very comfortable way to engage groups of enemies...). I still use slam in the middle of battle for aggro, damage and movement reduction and increased power. I just adopted to new conditions and I am starting to really enjoy my role. So stop complaining about our damage, you are just making it worse in the eyes of other people, who play another classes and who don't know too much about mechanics of GWFs. There are more important priority issues around GWF (e.g. unstopable bug and AP generation bug), which should be addressed as priority right now.
And CWs never wanted to be tanks but guess what we're the ones stuck with all of the mob Aggro b/c of GWFs who think they're meant to only do AoE dps. Oh and GWFs were given a lot more survivability to make up for the fact that you are in melee range. You can take the beatings that CWs can't so you're melee vs ranged dps difference doesn't hold up.
So many of you have stuck to the original wording of the class and just because damage is listed first in your description you think that you are meant to be the primary AoE class and totally disregard what you really bring to a group in terms of utility. Sorry but you are not THE AoE class in this game, just one of a few. CWs have always been considered an AoE class. I can agree that you need some buffs but CWs owe no apologies nor do they need to be changed.
Lose the entitlement attitude.
You don't know what you're talking about. The devs (yeah, the ones making the game) stated, when talking about the changes in dailies, that GWFs are meant to be AoE DPSrs. Got it? AoE DPSrs.
Now, if a control wizard, that is supposed to control, can AoE DPS, where does the GWF go?
Do you realize that every class has 1 role they are the best at (TR= single target DPS; DC= healing; GF= tank), only 1 role, while the CWs are the noly ones being the best at 2 roles (cc and AoE DPS) while the GWF is the only one with no specialization? What does this tell to you?
Also, to clarify that you don't know what you're talking about: you say "just buff GWFs". Well, if we assume that CWs shouldn't be the only class being the best at 2 roles, and that the GWF is supposed to be the main AoE DPSr (said by the devs), then you say that GWFs AoE damage should be buffed to be above the actual CW AoE damage. Making them too powerful.
What i said, also, is NOT to nerf the CW and nothing else. I said they should nerf the AoE damage, while buffing a bit the single target damage? Why?
Simple: nerfing the AoE DPS of CWs would just require to buff the GWF AoE DPS to the actual level of the CWs (not above, which would be too much). Basically, the classes would switch the roles in terms of AoE damage. Also, buffing the single target damage would balance the loss of AoE damage and would not reduce the efficacy of the class. Also, the cc would still be the best of all classes.
The class would not end up hurt and the GWFs would finally have a clear role and utility in PvE.
This is not going to end, is it? all this complaining... just learn to play your character and roleplay... today I run destro GWF in Malebog castle and in the end I was 2 milion DMG (16 mil vs. 14 mil.) ahead of our good exec TR (we are at the same gear level). With old slam and working AOE AP generation it would be no competition whatsoever. We also run without GF, so I do aggro and tank as well. This is what the description of our class is. I like this versatility of this class, as it can readily jump into different roles.
So what is wrong with you people? E.g. Slam nerf made me to find another daily (namely avalanche of steel) as well, which is very handy, when used well and in team play (my team already expects me to use it and find it very comfortable way to engage groups of enemies...). I still use slam in the middle of battle for aggro, damage and movement reduction and increased power. I just adopted to new conditions and I am starting to really enjoy my role. So stop complaining about our damage, you are just making it worse in the eyes of other people, who play another classes and who don't know too much about mechanics of GWFs. There are more important priority issues around GWF (e.g. unstopable bug and AP generation bug), which should be addressed as priority right now.
Just to clear up things. This is what the devs wrote, in the pinned topic, in this section:
One of the primary questions we received was regarding the design goal of the Great Weapon Fighter. From a systems design perspective, the Great Weapon Fighter is designed to be a class that excels at AoE DPS and taking hits while providing a bit of control to the fight.
Read it again.
a class that excels at AoE DPS a class that excels at AoE DPS a class that excels at AoE DPS
Now, the damage you're talking about comes from single target powers, unless you're saying that you topped the damage chart using WMS, avalanche of steel exc... Pretty sure, as anyone else, you were popping AoS daily when it was up/ good to use, and fighting with WMS+ single target encounters the rest of the time. Also, Avalanche of Steel damage is laughable. It's, indeed, a utility daily. Overall, AoE damage of the GWF is lower than the CW's. What does this means? That they DO NOT Excel at AoE DPS, like the devs said.
If you didn't know about avalanche of steel power before the nerf, then you're not as skilled as you say. It got it's use as a "get out of trouble" power, or to give breath to your party when the adds become too many.
Also, if you go with the class description then sorry, but you got it all wrong. That's the one thing you should NOT consider when talking about GWFs. In fact, the description is:
The Great Weapon Fighter is an unstoppable force of damage and steel, skilled in using the weight of a greatsword to dispatch those that stand in the way. The epitome of strength, the Great Weapon Fighter is also resilient enough to defend allies in need."
which, to put it simply, says nothing. And is different from what i quoted above from the devs.
So, we're supposed to EXCEL at AoE damage. Which means, we are supposed to be the main AoE DPSrs. Right now, we are not the main AoE DPSrs. That's why we have no role, that's why GWFs are rarely considered for epic dungeon runs. That's why it must be reworked so that GWFs are the main AoE DPSrs in PvE, and CWs are the main CC class.
You don't know what you're talking about. The devs (yeah, the ones making the game) stated, when talking about the changes in dailies, that GWFs are meant to be AoE DPSrs. Got it? AoE DPSrs.
Now, if a control wizard, that is supposed to control, can AoE DPS, where does the GWF go?
Do you realize that every class has 1 role they are the best at (TR= single target DPS; DC= healing; GF= tank), only 1 role, while the CWs are the noly ones being the best at 2 roles (cc and AoE DPS) while the GWF is the only one with no specialization? What does this tell to you?
Also, to clarify that you don't know what you're talking about: you say "just buff GWFs". Well, if we assume that CWs shouldn't be the only class being the best at 2 roles, and that the GWF is supposed to be the main AoE DPSr (said by the devs), then you say that GWFs AoE damage should be buffed to be above the actual CW AoE damage. Making them too powerful.
What i said, also, is NOT to nerf the CW and nothing else. I said they should nerf the AoE damage, while buffing a bit the single target damage? Why?
Simple: nerfing the AoE DPS of CWs would just require to buff the GWF AoE DPS to the actual level of the CWs (not above, which would be too much). Basically, the classes would switch the roles in terms of AoE damage. Also, buffing the single target damage would balance the loss of AoE damage and would not reduce the efficacy of the class. Also, the cc would still be the best of all classes.
The class would not end up hurt and the GWFs would finally have a clear role and utility in PvE.
CWs don't need nor want a buff to single target damage. Also your specialization is to be a tank. You are a hybrid just like CWs are. You are not a striker class so damage will never be considered your primary role. Yes you guys probably could use an AoE damage buff, but no you don't deserve to do more than CWs just because you want it to be so. Just keep clinging onto that outdated description of GWFs from the website. I'm sure they will eventually change the description just as they have changed tooltips to fit their vision. Also you keep quoting where devs said you should excel at AoE. They did not say that you should be top dog or the main AoE class. Excel simply means you do we'll at AoE situations, which technically you do. I mean you do more AoE than TRs which are primary strikers do you not?
It's also funny that you aren't whining about GFs who also outdps you and encroach on your supposed AoE specialty role.
CWs don't need nor want a buff to single target damage. Also your specialization is to be a tank. You are a hybrid just like CWs are. You are not a striker class so damage will never be considered your primary role. Yes you guys probably could use an AoE damage buff, but no you don't deserve to do more than CWs just because you want it to be so. Just keep clinging onto that outdated description of GWFs from the website. I'm sure they will eventually change the description just as they have changed tooltips to fit their vision. Also you keep quoting where devs said you should excel at AoE. They did not say that you should be top dog or the main AoE class. Excel simply means you do we'll at AoE situations, which technically you do. I mean you do more AoE than TRs which are primary strikers do you not?
It's also funny that you aren't whining about GFs who also outdps you and encroach on your supposed AoE specialty role.
GWFs have 2 of their 3 trees dedicated to dealing damage, and the tank tree makes for a very poor tank outside of PvP. This class may be a hybrid, but it leans HEAVILY to the damage dealer role. It's simply bad design choices that keep it from doing it's job as well as it should.
Just to clear up things. This is what the devs wrote, in the pinned topic, in this section:
Read it again.
a class that excels at AoE DPS a class that excels at AoE DPS a class that excels at AoE DPS
Now, the damage you're talking about comes from single target powers, unless you're saying that you topped the damage chart using WMS, avalanche of steel exc... Pretty sure, as anyone else, you were popping AoS daily when it was up/ good to use, and fighting with WMS+ single target encounters the rest of the time. Also, Avalanche of Steel damage is laughable. It's, indeed, a utility daily. Overall, AoE damage of the GWF is lower than the CW's. What does this means? That they DO NOT Excel at AoE DPS, like the devs said.
If you didn't know about avalanche of steel power before the nerf, then you're not as skilled as you say. It got it's use as a "get out of trouble" power, or to give breath to your party when the adds become too many.
Also, if you go with the class description then sorry, but you got it all wrong. That's the one thing you should NOT consider when talking about GWFs. In fact, the description is:
which, to put it simply, says nothing. And is different from what i quoted above from the devs.
So, we're supposed to EXCEL at AoE damage. Which means, we are supposed to be the main AoE DPSrs. Right now, we are not the main AoE DPSrs. That's why we have no role, that's why GWFs are rarely considered for epic dungeon runs. That's why it must be reworked so that GWFs are the main AoE DPSrs in PvE, and CWs are the main CC class.
You tell others they don't know what they are talking about, and then write a post like this.
First of all, regarding your quote of the Devs. I don't see any issues. GWFs DO excel at AoE dps. We definitely do more AoE than TRs/GFs/DCs and in many cases CWs. Whether you will agree with that or not is not my issue. You're going by your experience and I with my own. So the bottom line is, you don't agree with the Devs assessment of GWFs being a class that excel at AoEs because of your own experience, not as a matter of fact.
Second I think you are going by a very narrow definition of the word Excel. In general Excel means you are very good at, better than others, better than most. It doesn't always mean you are the BEST all the time. By your logic GFs should be complaining about their tanking, because in many situations GWFs can tank and survive better than they can.
Third, Single Target encounters are HARDLY the cause of GWFs topping damage. For a Destroyer, it is definitely WMS spam. Nothing even comes close. In many runs I top damage, I am often using 2 of Roar/Daring Shout/Mighty Leap. Third slot is often IBS. In fact, unless I know I am on Boss duty, I never slot Single Target.
The only real issue right now with GWFs, bugs aside, is the AP regen. While it is not stopping me from enjoying the class, it certainly needs to be buffed a bit.
I wrote that he does not know what he's talking about cause... well, he really does not know what he's talking about. He himself said he doesn't play a gwf. Yet he comes in the barracks, while we're discussion reworking of the class in PvE area, saying that the class is perfectly fine cause... he's seen GWF "performing well" in dungeons.
It was not to be harsh, it was jsut the truth...
Also: you keep saying (both of you) that GWFs are supposed to be a hybrid exc...
I'm not speaking just out of my experience. There's one simple thing that speaks for me: despite all your talking about GWFs being so good in PvE, they're left out of end game epic dungeons cause all the roles are already covered by all the other classes.
You guys keep talking about how good the GWF is as a hybrid. I love it, and as i said, i perform well in dungeons. But the problem is EXACTLY that while it can be good in PvP, being a hybrid in PvE, where epic dungeons are run with parties build over specialization, it's a problem.
Each class has it's specialization. TRs are the best in ST DPS. GF are the best tanks (cause the GWF doesn't generate the same aggro. We out-tank GFs only in PvP with sentinel builds, but in PvE you also must generate aggro to keep the mobs together). DCs obviously heal. And CWs are the best at cc and AoE DPS. Even if, as you say, GWFs outdamage them in AoE by a slight margin, it's still not enough. Cause a class that can be the best at cc and almost the best AoE DPSrs is still better than being the best AoE DPS class by a slight margin. And i still hear more people, my personal experience aside, saying that CWs are the kings of AoE DPS.
So basically, being a good hybrid is no use in parties that require specialization.
As the devs said, even if "Excel" does not mean "being the best", the role left for us in PvE should be AoE DPS. Right now, it's taken by CWs.
It's been discussed a lot, what GWFs are supposed to do. And everytime some guys drop in saying "it's not true, i'm super good, the class is fine, just learn it". Yet, after months, the GWF is still left out from epic dungeons most of the time. That is the general situation. Which, sorry to say, just breaks your convinction that everything is ok apart from AP generation.
I wrote that he does not know what he's talking about cause... well, he really does not know what he's talking about. He himself said he doesn't play a gwf. Yet he comes in the barracks, while we're discussion reworking of the class in PvE area, saying that the class is perfectly fine cause... he's seen GWF "performing well" in dungeons.
It was not to be harsh, it was jsut the truth...
Also: you keep saying (both of you) that GWFs are supposed to be a hybrid exc...
I'm not speaking just out of my experience. There's one simple thing that speaks for me: despite all your talking about GWFs being so good in PvE, they're left out of end game epic dungeons cause all the roles are already covered by all the other classes.
You guys keep talking about how good the GWF is as a hybrid. I love it, and as i said, i perform well in dungeons. But the problem is EXACTLY that while it can be good in PvP, being a hybrid in PvE, where epic dungeons are run with parties build over specialization, it's a problem.
Each class has it's specialization. TRs are the best in ST DPS. GF are the best tanks (cause the GWF doesn't generate the same aggro. We out-tank GFs only in PvP with sentinel builds, but in PvE you also must generate aggro to keep the mobs together). DCs obviously heal. And CWs are the best at cc and AoE DPS. Even if, as you say, GWFs outdamage them in AoE by a slight margin, it's still not enough. Cause a class that can be the best at cc and almost the best AoE DPSrs is still better than being the best AoE DPS class by a slight margin. And i still hear more people, my personal experience aside, saying that CWs are the kings of AoE DPS.
So basically, being a good hybrid is no use in parties that require specialization.
As the devs said, even if "Excel" does not mean "being the best", the role left for us in PvE should be AoE DPS. Right now, it's taken by CWs.
It's been discussed a lot, what GWFs are supposed to do. And everytime some guys drop in saying "it's not true, i'm super good, the class is fine, just learn it". Yet, after months, the GWF is still left out from epic dungeons most of the time. That is the general situation. Which, sorry to say, just breaks your convinction that everything is ok apart from AP generation.
You must be confusing me with someone else. I never in any of my posts, on this thread or any thread, used the word "Hybrid".
I tank any T2 in a Destroyer spec. I generate and keep aggro through raw dps. Because our target cap, we obviously cant keep aggro on everything. But people automatically assume that target cap means you're hitting the same 5 targets all the time. Using animation cancellation of WMS, I can circle an entire group of 10+ adds and mange to control most of them. But even the best GF can never maintain aggro on a large group. And in my opinion, the more tanky a GF is specced, the harder for them to generate threat because of their inferior dps. It is why most GFs go conquerors.
I know exactly what CWs are capable of. If you agree that both classes can put out similar AoE dps, then now it is a question of maximum CC utility vs GWF's survivability. Some people can brag all they want about how they can teleport out of any situation, and they can CC an entire dungeon with 2 buttons. But the fact is that GWF have 10x more survivability than a CW. Now you may still feel that the CC utility of a CW outweighs the survivability of a GWF, and I might even agree to some extent.
That's why I believe giving GWFs more dps is not the answer. I don't understand what some people expect the Devs will do if they actually go along with a damage buff. It's not like they are going to boost GWF's damage by 50%. At BEST, we may be looking at 5%-10%. If people think they will have an easier time finding groups if their GWF can do 5-10% more damage then they are being delusional.
That's why I believe giving GWFs more dps is not the answer. I don't understand what some people expect the Devs will do if they actually go along with a damage buff. It's not like they are going to boost GWF's damage by 50%. At BEST, we may be looking at 5%-10%. If people think they will have an easier time finding groups if their GWF can do 5-10% more damage then they are being delusional.
That's a bit of a straw-man argument, isn't it? Most threads don't just demand more dps and let's be done with it, most threads deal about what the GWF needs to be more welcome in dungeons. I think it's great that you can make the class work for you in the parties you have, but that in no way changes the fact that GWF's are the unwanted stepchildren of NW.
As it is now, you can take a GWF from a party and replace him with any other class, and it will make no difference whatsoever. It's become the class you allow into your party until something better comes along. Just think about how much trouble you're actually in when the GWF goes down.... it's hardly a problem. Yet when the tank, mage or cleric go down it's a totally different story.
Bottom line is that every party needs a tank, cleric and mage, and then some dps for the tougher mobs, preferably a rogue because that's his thing. With enough Singularity and Pushing you don't even really need a tank. GWF's just don't bring anything to the party that the other classes can't do better.
Using animation cancellation of WMS, I can circle an entire group of 10+ adds and mange to control most of them.
And ????
Do we even play the same game? is the question that pops up in my mind when i read this.
I myself is a 13k GWF that played both destro and sent build for a couple of month now and in my experiance of the end game GWF is viod.
As i all cases a good player can contribute better then average or bad players but thats about it.
No matter what dungeon you play another class will make the group finish the dungeon faster.
Your dps compared to rouge and cw is laugeble when running dungeons in good groups. The only thing you will contribute with is making the run go smother for the cw:s if you do your job very good. But then again adding another cw tr or even gf that knows what he is doing will again make that run go faster.
IF YOU do dam that comes near cw:s during a run its is either following reason:
1 You heavely outgear the cw
2 You run ahead of the party doing all your aoe stuff before they come running around with mobs
3 Your cws are clueless and cant play thier classes
4 The cws gather all mobs for you to aoe and are to lazy to dps them/or feeling sorry for you letting you dps them
Dont get me wrong here i love my GWF and think the class on its own has a wounderful role to play but saying that they are competitative in t2 dungeon runs in todays nw is taking it to far.
You can blame the fact that they are always alot of gwfs lfg and that they have the hardest time getting groups on bad players all you want. Or you can start to question yourself why that is the case.
If you dont see that GWF is seriously lacking in t2 runs compared to other classes to fill the 1 of the 5 spotts you have good friends to play with that dont care about making the fastest smothest runs possible.
For the rest of the community and about 90% of the playing GWF:s the problem is real.
Stick your head in the sand and continue hitting yourself on the chest saying its no problem if it makes you feel better- it doesent change the fact that GWF:s is the least wanted class in groups right now......
GWFs have 2 of their 3 trees dedicated to dealing damage, and the tank tree makes for a very poor tank outside of PvP. This class may be a hybrid, but it leans HEAVILY to the damage dealer role. It's simply bad design choices that keep it from doing it's job as well as it should.
And CWs have 2 of their 3 trees dedicated to damage yet several of you want to say we're controllers first and damage dealers second. It's no different yet you think GWFs have some mandate to rule the damage meters. In this game you are either a striker or you have a utility role backed up by damage. You're not a striker so guess what that means... You need some buffs but stop pretending to be some special snowflake.
And ????
Do we even play the same game? is the question that pops up in my mind when i read this.
I myself is a 13k GWF that played both destro and sent build for a couple of month now and in my experiance of the end game GWF is viod.
As i all cases a good player can contribute better then average or bad players but thats about it.
No matter what dungeon you play another class will make the group finish the dungeon faster.
Your dps compared to rouge and cw is laugeble when running dungeons in good groups. The only thing you will contribute with is making the run go smother for the cw:s if you do your job very good. But then again adding another cw tr or even gf that knows what he is doing will again make that run go faster.
IF YOU do dam that comes near cw:s during a run its is either following reason:
1 You heavely outgear the cw
2 You run ahead of the party doing all your aoe stuff before they come running around with mobs
3 Your cws are clueless and cant play thier classes
4 The cws gather all mobs for you to aoe and are to lazy to dps them/or feeling sorry for you letting you dps them
Dont get me wrong here i love my GWF and think the class on its own has a wounderful role to play but saying that they are competitative in t2 dungeon runs in todays nw is taking it to far.
You can blame the fact that they are always alot of gwfs lfg and that they have the hardest time getting groups on bad players all you want. Or you can start to question yourself why that is the case.
If you dont see that GWF is seriously lacking in t2 runs compared to other classes to fill the 1 of the 5 spotts you have good friends to play with that dont care about making the fastest smothest runs possible.
For the rest of the community and about 90% of the playing GWF:s the problem is real.
Stick your head in the sand and continue hitting yourself on the chest saying its no problem if it makes you feel better- it doesent change the fact that GWF:s is the least wanted class in groups right now......
The thing that you and several others keep neglecting is that even if your damage is buffed you still won't be needed in groups. The issue as Copticone keeps stating is not related to damage, rather it's related to your utility role of what you bring to groups. Too many GWFs, and by this I mean the majority of GWFs that I have played with, completely ignore the tanking aspect of their class. Your job is to deal damage while helping to keep the squishies safe, not just be tough and kill mobs. I mean groups expect CWs to help control mobs while doing AoE damage do they not?
Ask for buffs that will actually make people want to bring you... i.e. things that will help keep your group alive longer. No damage buff is going to change people's perceptions even if you do become top dps. People generally feel safer having CWs around because they know that they can help to keep mobs off of everyone else (this is what your job should be as well, although using different methods). They would still know that CW damage is good enough to get the job done and that they bring more utility. GFs are viewed the same way.
Buffs are needed, just stop asking for the wrong thing. Stop focusing on the damage meters at the end as the end all be all.
And CWs have 2 of their 3 trees dedicated to damage yet several of you want to say we're controllers first and damage dealers second. It's no different yet you think GWFs have some mandate to rule the damage meters. In this game you are either a striker or you have a utility role backed up by damage. You're not a striker so guess what that means... You need some buffs but stop pretending to be some special snowflake.
Just one question. So, we're not supposed to be the AoE DPS class. The single target DPS is the rogue. The tank is the GF. The healer is the DC. The cc belongs to the CW, which also can output AoE DPS comparable if not superior to the GWF's.
You know, right, that what you guys are writing about us being second tanks for someone, back up for another, second DPS for another... is not a role?
And that's why the GWF is the least wanted class in a dungeon party, in most cases?
You guys keep repeating the mixed ability stuff like it's a good thing. Let's clarify it again: it's not. PvE dungeon parties require specialization. Require your class to be the best at something, not good at 3 things.
Also, asking for a specific role is NOT pretending to be some special snowflake. It's just asking to be like ANY OTHER class. Every class have its SPECIFIC role. Except for the GWF.
Keep being disappointed then b/c it's apparent that Cryptic doesn't share your views. I play a 16k GF as well so I know what it's like to fight in the thick of things and I don't expect that he should do more dps than my CW simply b/c he is in melee. You don't just want to be viable... You want to be a god and it ain't happening.
How do you figure thats not being viable? the only thing a GWF has is DPS that's it, a CW has DPS (+more targets) AND CC. In a game of specialization someone who is decent at everything is not needed/wanted. Do you not understand this?
GF = TANKS
DC = HEALS
TR = ST DPS
CW = AOE DPS + CC
GWF = ?
CW are the BEST at CC that alone makes it ridiculous to think they should ALSO be best at AOE DPS. Also YES the guy that has to chase the mobs all around and has to worry about positioning should ALWAYS do more damage than the one that can sit back and just peg stuff not worrying about running up to every single mob trying to chase stuff all around a dungeon. With your reasoning WHY BRING A GWF? CW do more damage so you don't bring the GWF for that CW do better CC ... so umm what does that leave for a GWF? GWF sacrifice the added mobility of RANGED ABILITIES so they got a toughness buff from that AND THEY SHOULD. When your range do the same dps and CC for only a little bit of survivability drop why bring the GWF?
We are NOT needed in groups simple because we are sub par. If we did the AOE DPS that we require guess what... people would go hrmm its better to just cc and aoe them down with the GWF or just plow through them instead of ledge kick everything. Its not just the lack of utility we bring its the lack of anything we bring. Name one thing a GWF brings to the table another class does not bring better. Now name something ANY other class brings to the table another class does better... GWF SHOULD be the KINGS of AOE DPS PERIOD. and have the survivability to survive the fallout.
The thing that you and several others keep neglecting is that even if your damage is buffed you still won't be needed in groups. The issue as Copticone keeps stating is not related to damage, rather it's related to your utility role of what you bring to groups. Too many GWFs, and by this I mean the majority of GWFs that I have played with, completely ignore the tanking aspect of their class. Your job is to deal damage while helping to keep the squishies safe, not just be tough and kill mobs. I mean groups expect CWs to help control mobs while doing AoE damage do they not?
Ask for buffs that will actually make people want to bring you... i.e. things that will help keep your group alive longer. No damage buff is going to change people's perceptions even if you do become top dps. People generally feel safer having CWs around because they know that they can help to keep mobs off of everyone else (this is what your job should be as well, although using different methods). They would still know that CW damage is good enough to get the job done and that they bring more utility. GFs are viewed the same way.
Buffs are needed, just stop asking for the wrong thing. Stop focusing on the damage meters at the end as the end all be all.
As i have stated many times before I believe copti is wrong, the utility of our role is simple, do enough AOE damage to keep stuff off squishies and survive, we don't, we fail at the damage miserably WE ARE NOT A CC CLASS we are a get in there smash the stuff class, when we cant do that why bring us? CW already keep everything CC the entire time so without a lot more damage why bring them? utility? bring another CW as Utility is not the realm of the GWF.
Just one question. So, we're not supposed to be the AoE DPS class. The single target DPS is the rogue. The tank is the GF. The healer is the DC. The cc belongs to the CW, which also can output AoE DPS comparable if not superior to the GWF's.
You know, right, that what you guys are writing about us being second tanks for someone, back up for another, second DPS for another... is not a role?
And that's why the GWF is the least wanted class in a dungeon party, in most cases?
You guys keep repeating the mixed ability stuff like it's a good thing. Let's clarify it again: it's not. PvE dungeon parties require specialization. Require your class to be the best at something, not good at 3 things.
Also, asking for a specific role is NOT pretending to be some special snowflake. It's just asking to be like ANY OTHER class. Every class have its SPECIFIC role. Except for the GWF.
Actually you guys are technically supposed to be the add tank and GFs are the boss tank, but we all know that cryptic screwed the pooch on tanking mechanics. No tanks are technically needed so GFs are getting a raw deal just like you. Do realize though that you can indeed perform the same task as a GF. It's just that most of you don't want to and want to pretend that your unique role is AoE dps. AoE dps is not a unique role in this game, it's secondary to all other roles (except for TRs).
GFs and GWFs are both tanks. Why cryptic made the decision to include 2 tanks from release is beyond me but they did. Upping your damage will never get you into a party. Keep crying for more damage and then QQ later that you guys still aren't brought because you lack utility. Your utility is your ability to tank adds. You can choose not to do this just as you can choose not to get party invites. If this is hard for you to understand then I'm sorry for you.
One other quick thing. Cryptic never said each class was meant to have a unique role. There will be more strikers introduced and undoubtedly more healing classes. Does this mean we should expect a flood of TR and DC posts that they are no longer special when this happens?
As i have stated many times before I believe copti is wrong, the utility of our role is simple, do enough AOE damage to keep stuff off squishies and survive, we don't, we fail at the damage miserably WE ARE NOT A CC CLASS we are a get in there smash the stuff class, when we cant do that why bring us? CW already keep everything CC the entire time so without a lot more damage why bring them? utility? bring another CW as Utility is not the realm of the GWF.
It's impossible for a CW to keep all mobs CCd at all times. Your role is to taunt the adds that the CWs aggro with their AoE CC and attacks while their CC abilities are on cool down. Both classes are responsible for doing the AoE damage. You see, both classes are meant to work together and cover each other's downtime between taunt cool downs and CC cool downs. That leaves the TRs and healers more safe to perform their job. Your dps alone will never keep anyone safe so quit being silly about that.
Comments
I've said repeatedly that gwfs need damage buffs and thread buffs so that they actually bring utility. MC is much easier when there is a tank holding much of the mob threat. I know that I can hold threat against CWs on my GF but I've yet to meet a GWF that can hold threat from my CW. That is definitely one area that needs to be addressed and part of the utility that you are supposed to bring to a group.
The only reason I responded to your post was that you kept saying GWFs deserve to out damage CWs rather than just being on par with them. You then made up silly reasons as to why. GWFs can take a good beating and survive things that would one-shot CWs. This is why you are melee and CWs are squishy. Dodging alone won't save a CW especially if they are being focused by a mob using ranged attacks on top of the normal red circles and cones that we have to avoid.
Again I'm all for buffing GWFs. Just stop asking to be THE top dogs in AoE and realize that multiple classes share the AoE realm.
I've done runs with some really good GWFs and they've been a real asset, stepping in to a role when one of the specialist classes was struggling - taking out the boss if the TR isn't up to it, or clearing out mobs when I've got overwhelmed, taking some of my aggro when the GF has gone missing.
I have a GWF alt and find it way harder than my CW main. As a CW I know my role (and DPS is one of those roles - killing stuff is the ultimate CC, we've even got a paragon path based on damage, though I'm not going to tell you whether it's the thaum or rene tree for fear of starting CW arguments
Personally I like having a GWF in the party. I'm just glad it's not me :P
No Kidbs, i've yet to have anything 1 shot my CW that i cant easily dodge out of and CW are not as squishy as you would like to lead people to believe. You seem to think that because a GWF can take a bit more damage then they should only do the same damage as a CW? Why bring a GWF at that point? CW offer RANGE, dodge, DPS, CC. GWF offer sup par DPS at MELEE RANGE so in order to do any damage they will take a lot of it, almost NO CC, no dodge. So YES they should do more damage than a CW. Give me a good reason why they should not. I am very much saying that GWF should ALWAYS be the TOP AOE DPS, as they put in a lot more risk as well as have to move around a lot more than a CW to do said dps. It really is easy to tell who has a CW main, I know you are enjoying your TOP DPS and TOP Utility that your class brings at the moment, but guess what, that makes other classes USELESS. If you look at it this way (if you played some old rpg games) think of the power of the class like a bar graph from 1-10. CW would look like this
Damage 8/10
Range 10/10
Control 10/10
Health 5/10
escape tools 7/10
While a GWF would look like this
Damage 4/10 - 6/10
Range 0/10
Control 1/10
Health 6/10 - 10/10
escape tools 1/10
put that in a bar graph and overlay the two. In picking a class in an old school RPG there is no way in hell i would pick the second, the first does everything better, and more that the second cant do, with minimal loss of other things.
I find this really funny.....they don't seem to have a problem and are enjoying themselves. You make fun of them for having blue items still....maybe you simply should not expect to be "unstoppable" and run through epic dungeons like a god? I think you cutting them down was in poor form. I don't know much about GWF but I have read a few people say they still feel godly....A GWF in my guild still completely destroys people in PvP....so much as he almost felt stronger....he respected into some new build?? Anyways....good for you Noroblad for still enjoying your class:)
y so many people in greens,blues much more then before.sometimes i look their gear and fell bad coz i killed them lol.
How do you look at other peoples gear? I have wondered about this..I can see my team but what about other team?
nah you cant equip with 20 k all purple like before and throw some enchants even coz BOP.prices a crazy in ah and you cant make so much glory before lvl 60 and after they just lose.
Keep being disappointed then b/c it's apparent that Cryptic doesn't share your views. I play a 16k GF as well so I know what it's like to fight in the thick of things and I don't expect that he should do more dps than my CW simply b/c he is in melee. You don't just want to be viable... You want to be a god and it ain't happening.
So what is wrong with you people? E.g. Slam nerf made me to find another daily (namely avalanche of steel) as well, which is very handy, when used well and in team play (my team already expects me to use it and find it very comfortable way to engage groups of enemies...). I still use slam in the middle of battle for aggro, damage and movement reduction and increased power. I just adopted to new conditions and I am starting to really enjoy my role. So stop complaining about our damage, you are just making it worse in the eyes of other people, who play another classes and who don't know too much about mechanics of GWFs. There are more important priority issues around GWF (e.g. unstopable bug and AP generation bug), which should be addressed as priority right now.
You don't know what you're talking about. The devs (yeah, the ones making the game) stated, when talking about the changes in dailies, that GWFs are meant to be AoE DPSrs. Got it? AoE DPSrs.
Now, if a control wizard, that is supposed to control, can AoE DPS, where does the GWF go?
Do you realize that every class has 1 role they are the best at (TR= single target DPS; DC= healing; GF= tank), only 1 role, while the CWs are the noly ones being the best at 2 roles (cc and AoE DPS) while the GWF is the only one with no specialization? What does this tell to you?
Also, to clarify that you don't know what you're talking about: you say "just buff GWFs". Well, if we assume that CWs shouldn't be the only class being the best at 2 roles, and that the GWF is supposed to be the main AoE DPSr (said by the devs), then you say that GWFs AoE damage should be buffed to be above the actual CW AoE damage. Making them too powerful.
What i said, also, is NOT to nerf the CW and nothing else. I said they should nerf the AoE damage, while buffing a bit the single target damage? Why?
Simple: nerfing the AoE DPS of CWs would just require to buff the GWF AoE DPS to the actual level of the CWs (not above, which would be too much). Basically, the classes would switch the roles in terms of AoE damage. Also, buffing the single target damage would balance the loss of AoE damage and would not reduce the efficacy of the class. Also, the cc would still be the best of all classes.
The class would not end up hurt and the GWFs would finally have a clear role and utility in PvE.
Just to clear up things. This is what the devs wrote, in the pinned topic, in this section:
Read it again.
a class that excels at AoE DPS
a class that excels at AoE DPS
a class that excels at AoE DPS
Now, the damage you're talking about comes from single target powers, unless you're saying that you topped the damage chart using WMS, avalanche of steel exc... Pretty sure, as anyone else, you were popping AoS daily when it was up/ good to use, and fighting with WMS+ single target encounters the rest of the time. Also, Avalanche of Steel damage is laughable. It's, indeed, a utility daily. Overall, AoE damage of the GWF is lower than the CW's. What does this means? That they DO NOT Excel at AoE DPS, like the devs said.
If you didn't know about avalanche of steel power before the nerf, then you're not as skilled as you say. It got it's use as a "get out of trouble" power, or to give breath to your party when the adds become too many.
Also, if you go with the class description then sorry, but you got it all wrong. That's the one thing you should NOT consider when talking about GWFs. In fact, the description is:
which, to put it simply, says nothing. And is different from what i quoted above from the devs.
So, we're supposed to EXCEL at AoE damage. Which means, we are supposed to be the main AoE DPSrs. Right now, we are not the main AoE DPSrs. That's why we have no role, that's why GWFs are rarely considered for epic dungeon runs. That's why it must be reworked so that GWFs are the main AoE DPSrs in PvE, and CWs are the main CC class.
CWs don't need nor want a buff to single target damage. Also your specialization is to be a tank. You are a hybrid just like CWs are. You are not a striker class so damage will never be considered your primary role. Yes you guys probably could use an AoE damage buff, but no you don't deserve to do more than CWs just because you want it to be so. Just keep clinging onto that outdated description of GWFs from the website. I'm sure they will eventually change the description just as they have changed tooltips to fit their vision. Also you keep quoting where devs said you should excel at AoE. They did not say that you should be top dog or the main AoE class. Excel simply means you do we'll at AoE situations, which technically you do. I mean you do more AoE than TRs which are primary strikers do you not?
It's also funny that you aren't whining about GFs who also outdps you and encroach on your supposed AoE specialty role.
GWFs have 2 of their 3 trees dedicated to dealing damage, and the tank tree makes for a very poor tank outside of PvP. This class may be a hybrid, but it leans HEAVILY to the damage dealer role. It's simply bad design choices that keep it from doing it's job as well as it should.
You tell others they don't know what they are talking about, and then write a post like this.
First of all, regarding your quote of the Devs. I don't see any issues. GWFs DO excel at AoE dps. We definitely do more AoE than TRs/GFs/DCs and in many cases CWs. Whether you will agree with that or not is not my issue. You're going by your experience and I with my own. So the bottom line is, you don't agree with the Devs assessment of GWFs being a class that excel at AoEs because of your own experience, not as a matter of fact.
Second I think you are going by a very narrow definition of the word Excel. In general Excel means you are very good at, better than others, better than most. It doesn't always mean you are the BEST all the time. By your logic GFs should be complaining about their tanking, because in many situations GWFs can tank and survive better than they can.
Third, Single Target encounters are HARDLY the cause of GWFs topping damage. For a Destroyer, it is definitely WMS spam. Nothing even comes close. In many runs I top damage, I am often using 2 of Roar/Daring Shout/Mighty Leap. Third slot is often IBS. In fact, unless I know I am on Boss duty, I never slot Single Target.
The only real issue right now with GWFs, bugs aside, is the AP regen. While it is not stopping me from enjoying the class, it certainly needs to be buffed a bit.
It was not to be harsh, it was jsut the truth...
Also: you keep saying (both of you) that GWFs are supposed to be a hybrid exc...
I'm not speaking just out of my experience. There's one simple thing that speaks for me: despite all your talking about GWFs being so good in PvE, they're left out of end game epic dungeons cause all the roles are already covered by all the other classes.
You guys keep talking about how good the GWF is as a hybrid. I love it, and as i said, i perform well in dungeons. But the problem is EXACTLY that while it can be good in PvP, being a hybrid in PvE, where epic dungeons are run with parties build over specialization, it's a problem.
Each class has it's specialization. TRs are the best in ST DPS. GF are the best tanks (cause the GWF doesn't generate the same aggro. We out-tank GFs only in PvP with sentinel builds, but in PvE you also must generate aggro to keep the mobs together). DCs obviously heal. And CWs are the best at cc and AoE DPS. Even if, as you say, GWFs outdamage them in AoE by a slight margin, it's still not enough. Cause a class that can be the best at cc and almost the best AoE DPSrs is still better than being the best AoE DPS class by a slight margin. And i still hear more people, my personal experience aside, saying that CWs are the kings of AoE DPS.
So basically, being a good hybrid is no use in parties that require specialization.
As the devs said, even if "Excel" does not mean "being the best", the role left for us in PvE should be AoE DPS. Right now, it's taken by CWs.
It's been discussed a lot, what GWFs are supposed to do. And everytime some guys drop in saying "it's not true, i'm super good, the class is fine, just learn it". Yet, after months, the GWF is still left out from epic dungeons most of the time. That is the general situation. Which, sorry to say, just breaks your convinction that everything is ok apart from AP generation.
You must be confusing me with someone else. I never in any of my posts, on this thread or any thread, used the word "Hybrid".
I tank any T2 in a Destroyer spec. I generate and keep aggro through raw dps. Because our target cap, we obviously cant keep aggro on everything. But people automatically assume that target cap means you're hitting the same 5 targets all the time. Using animation cancellation of WMS, I can circle an entire group of 10+ adds and mange to control most of them. But even the best GF can never maintain aggro on a large group. And in my opinion, the more tanky a GF is specced, the harder for them to generate threat because of their inferior dps. It is why most GFs go conquerors.
I know exactly what CWs are capable of. If you agree that both classes can put out similar AoE dps, then now it is a question of maximum CC utility vs GWF's survivability. Some people can brag all they want about how they can teleport out of any situation, and they can CC an entire dungeon with 2 buttons. But the fact is that GWF have 10x more survivability than a CW. Now you may still feel that the CC utility of a CW outweighs the survivability of a GWF, and I might even agree to some extent.
That's why I believe giving GWFs more dps is not the answer. I don't understand what some people expect the Devs will do if they actually go along with a damage buff. It's not like they are going to boost GWF's damage by 50%. At BEST, we may be looking at 5%-10%. If people think they will have an easier time finding groups if their GWF can do 5-10% more damage then they are being delusional.
That's a bit of a straw-man argument, isn't it? Most threads don't just demand more dps and let's be done with it, most threads deal about what the GWF needs to be more welcome in dungeons. I think it's great that you can make the class work for you in the parties you have, but that in no way changes the fact that GWF's are the unwanted stepchildren of NW.
As it is now, you can take a GWF from a party and replace him with any other class, and it will make no difference whatsoever. It's become the class you allow into your party until something better comes along. Just think about how much trouble you're actually in when the GWF goes down.... it's hardly a problem. Yet when the tank, mage or cleric go down it's a totally different story.
Bottom line is that every party needs a tank, cleric and mage, and then some dps for the tougher mobs, preferably a rogue because that's his thing. With enough Singularity and Pushing you don't even really need a tank. GWF's just don't bring anything to the party that the other classes can't do better.
Do we even play the same game? is the question that pops up in my mind when i read this.
I myself is a 13k GWF that played both destro and sent build for a couple of month now and in my experiance of the end game GWF is viod.
As i all cases a good player can contribute better then average or bad players but thats about it.
No matter what dungeon you play another class will make the group finish the dungeon faster.
Your dps compared to rouge and cw is laugeble when running dungeons in good groups. The only thing you will contribute with is making the run go smother for the cw:s if you do your job very good. But then again adding another cw tr or even gf that knows what he is doing will again make that run go faster.
IF YOU do dam that comes near cw:s during a run its is either following reason:
1 You heavely outgear the cw
2 You run ahead of the party doing all your aoe stuff before they come running around with mobs
3 Your cws are clueless and cant play thier classes
4 The cws gather all mobs for you to aoe and are to lazy to dps them/or feeling sorry for you letting you dps them
Dont get me wrong here i love my GWF and think the class on its own has a wounderful role to play but saying that they are competitative in t2 dungeon runs in todays nw is taking it to far.
You can blame the fact that they are always alot of gwfs lfg and that they have the hardest time getting groups on bad players all you want. Or you can start to question yourself why that is the case.
If you dont see that GWF is seriously lacking in t2 runs compared to other classes to fill the 1 of the 5 spotts you have good friends to play with that dont care about making the fastest smothest runs possible.
For the rest of the community and about 90% of the playing GWF:s the problem is real.
Stick your head in the sand and continue hitting yourself on the chest saying its no problem if it makes you feel better- it doesent change the fact that GWF:s is the least wanted class in groups right now......
And CWs have 2 of their 3 trees dedicated to damage yet several of you want to say we're controllers first and damage dealers second. It's no different yet you think GWFs have some mandate to rule the damage meters. In this game you are either a striker or you have a utility role backed up by damage. You're not a striker so guess what that means... You need some buffs but stop pretending to be some special snowflake.
The thing that you and several others keep neglecting is that even if your damage is buffed you still won't be needed in groups. The issue as Copticone keeps stating is not related to damage, rather it's related to your utility role of what you bring to groups. Too many GWFs, and by this I mean the majority of GWFs that I have played with, completely ignore the tanking aspect of their class. Your job is to deal damage while helping to keep the squishies safe, not just be tough and kill mobs. I mean groups expect CWs to help control mobs while doing AoE damage do they not?
Ask for buffs that will actually make people want to bring you... i.e. things that will help keep your group alive longer. No damage buff is going to change people's perceptions even if you do become top dps. People generally feel safer having CWs around because they know that they can help to keep mobs off of everyone else (this is what your job should be as well, although using different methods). They would still know that CW damage is good enough to get the job done and that they bring more utility. GFs are viewed the same way.
Buffs are needed, just stop asking for the wrong thing. Stop focusing on the damage meters at the end as the end all be all.
Just one question. So, we're not supposed to be the AoE DPS class. The single target DPS is the rogue. The tank is the GF. The healer is the DC. The cc belongs to the CW, which also can output AoE DPS comparable if not superior to the GWF's.
You know, right, that what you guys are writing about us being second tanks for someone, back up for another, second DPS for another... is not a role?
And that's why the GWF is the least wanted class in a dungeon party, in most cases?
You guys keep repeating the mixed ability stuff like it's a good thing. Let's clarify it again: it's not. PvE dungeon parties require specialization. Require your class to be the best at something, not good at 3 things.
Also, asking for a specific role is NOT pretending to be some special snowflake. It's just asking to be like ANY OTHER class. Every class have its SPECIFIC role. Except for the GWF.
How do you figure thats not being viable? the only thing a GWF has is DPS that's it, a CW has DPS (+more targets) AND CC. In a game of specialization someone who is decent at everything is not needed/wanted. Do you not understand this?
GF = TANKS
DC = HEALS
TR = ST DPS
CW = AOE DPS + CC
GWF = ?
CW are the BEST at CC that alone makes it ridiculous to think they should ALSO be best at AOE DPS. Also YES the guy that has to chase the mobs all around and has to worry about positioning should ALWAYS do more damage than the one that can sit back and just peg stuff not worrying about running up to every single mob trying to chase stuff all around a dungeon. With your reasoning WHY BRING A GWF? CW do more damage so you don't bring the GWF for that CW do better CC ... so umm what does that leave for a GWF? GWF sacrifice the added mobility of RANGED ABILITIES so they got a toughness buff from that AND THEY SHOULD. When your range do the same dps and CC for only a little bit of survivability drop why bring the GWF?
We are NOT needed in groups simple because we are sub par. If we did the AOE DPS that we require guess what... people would go hrmm its better to just cc and aoe them down with the GWF or just plow through them instead of ledge kick everything. Its not just the lack of utility we bring its the lack of anything we bring. Name one thing a GWF brings to the table another class does not bring better. Now name something ANY other class brings to the table another class does better... GWF SHOULD be the KINGS of AOE DPS PERIOD. and have the survivability to survive the fallout.
As i have stated many times before I believe copti is wrong, the utility of our role is simple, do enough AOE damage to keep stuff off squishies and survive, we don't, we fail at the damage miserably WE ARE NOT A CC CLASS we are a get in there smash the stuff class, when we cant do that why bring us? CW already keep everything CC the entire time so without a lot more damage why bring them? utility? bring another CW as Utility is not the realm of the GWF.
Actually you guys are technically supposed to be the add tank and GFs are the boss tank, but we all know that cryptic screwed the pooch on tanking mechanics. No tanks are technically needed so GFs are getting a raw deal just like you. Do realize though that you can indeed perform the same task as a GF. It's just that most of you don't want to and want to pretend that your unique role is AoE dps. AoE dps is not a unique role in this game, it's secondary to all other roles (except for TRs).
GFs and GWFs are both tanks. Why cryptic made the decision to include 2 tanks from release is beyond me but they did. Upping your damage will never get you into a party. Keep crying for more damage and then QQ later that you guys still aren't brought because you lack utility. Your utility is your ability to tank adds. You can choose not to do this just as you can choose not to get party invites. If this is hard for you to understand then I'm sorry for you.
One other quick thing. Cryptic never said each class was meant to have a unique role. There will be more strikers introduced and undoubtedly more healing classes. Does this mean we should expect a flood of TR and DC posts that they are no longer special when this happens?
It's impossible for a CW to keep all mobs CCd at all times. Your role is to taunt the adds that the CWs aggro with their AoE CC and attacks while their CC abilities are on cool down. Both classes are responsible for doing the AoE damage. You see, both classes are meant to work together and cover each other's downtime between taunt cool downs and CC cool downs. That leaves the TRs and healers more safe to perform their job. Your dps alone will never keep anyone safe so quit being silly about that.