There is a lot of truth in this thread. For mine - what is the primary role of the GWF. It is AoE damage. But as many have stated, the CW does it all.
The CW is massively overpowered. Its Ice Knife makes Shocking Execution look pathetic. The massive area damage done when coupled with Crowd Control is simply overpowered. I have level 60 in ALL classes. I cannot get into dungeons any more with a GWF. That is how bad this situation is, I actually cannot play my main character.
So what changes would I like to see:
At wills
Weapon master strike can affect up to eight NPCs;
wicked strike can affect up to eight NPCs.
Encounters
Roar - renamed Battle Cry (That frees up Roar for the Barbarian - where it always should have been.) Roar generated Action Points and Marks.
Come and Get It - Marks as well as pulls.
Daring Shout - Marks just like GF.
Dailys
Slam - return the dps to where it was.
Avalanche - reduce the time between activbation and damage by 50%
Destroyer should be renamed Battlemaster; Destroyer is what Barbarians do.
Pure tank build - Sentinel - Lift the threat substantially as it is a tanking build.
Pure AoE Damage class - Battlemaster - AoE damage
Pure control and damage class - Instigator - Avalanche now knocks to ground and dazes for a short while.
Just a few thoughts; Flame suit donned and go for it.
No offence, but all the "GWF is ok" players really sound like they are out of reality. First of all, they don't even seem to know the role of the class. One says it's a primary tank, another says it's a hybrid, another says it's complementary to the CWs. Second, i read a lot of talking about "your personal experience", knowing few about how the other classes work or how they do compare to GWFs.
On the other hand, there is a fact:
GWFs are the least wanted class ina epic dungeon party, and it's not all due to the knocking mechanic, since it happens also in dungeons where you can't knock mobs down a cliff.
Also, there are many users, from many different classes, not just GWF, and with lots of experience, that expalined in details how stuff works. Yet people keep replying with pure guesses.
GWFs are tanks, while the devs says they excel at AoE DPS. A destroyer spec can't tank a crowd of mobs in a t2 epic dungeon, surely not with Unstoppable the way it is now. With at best 23k hp, a destroyer just can't take all the damage a crowd of lvl 65 adds can do. And if you go sentinel to tank, then your damage will not be enough to keep the mobs on you and tank.
Even if the AoE damage is comparable between GWF and CW, CWs have the cc. If the GWF is a destroyer he can't tank in an epic dungeon. If he's a sentinel, his AoE damage is not comparable to a CW.
"GWFs must AoE and keep the mobs busy while the CW is on cooldown". kidbs, read what you wrote again. What you wrote can be done better by a second CW. They cover each other cooldown and the second CW have the advantage of the cc.
And guess what... people makes parties with more than 1 CW! Incredible, right? May be they don't know the secrets you know!
The suggestion is not to just buff the AoE DPS. It's to make GWF the only class able to make AoE DPS, leaving the CW the role of cc. You know what could bring, having a class that can do both cc and aoe dps? Parties that are made with 2-3 CWs, 1 DC and 1 TR. Hey wait... but that's EXACTLY what's happening! Can you believe it?
Reality slaps you in the face and nuke all your guessing and blabbering about what a GWF is supposed to be.
My suggestion is that with GWFs primary AoE DPSrs in PvE, the best party composition would be
TR for boss dps
DC for heal
GF for tank
CW to cc the adds
GWF to AoE nuke them while they are tanked and cced
The GWF AoE damage would be always consistently higher than CWs, and the difference between a sentine or a destroyer wold just be who can deal more damage or have more survivability.
Right now, the CW do both the cc and AoE DPS role, reason why they are the most wanted class in a dungeon and multiple CWs is becoming the best choice.
Either all the experienced players who run t2 dungeons, and concluded that it's the best choice, are not as good as you and are doing it wrong, or perhaps the rest of the world is right and you are wrong. Cause reality is the opposite of what you say.
But i really love when a guy appears, saying it's all right cause he's doing fine, and may be it's just that people got used to the wrong way of forming a dungeon party.
GWFs don't have a taunt kidbs. As others have already stated, GWF tank stuff primarily by damage agro. I hear what you are saying about the tanking utility but, in reality, it just doesn't work at the moment. In order to be tanky enough, you sacrifice damage stats, which kills your threat. In order to do enough threat, you sacrifice survivability. It's nigh-on impossible to find a happy medium with a GWF. As a GWF you are either really survivable with low damage (outside of really high end enchants) or you do some damage but get poleaxed if a group turns on you. Unstoppable won't save you on it's own in it's current form.
Not true. Destroyer spec stacking about 10% Lifesteal is the perfect blend of DPS/Survivability/Threat generation.
No offence, but all the "GWF is ok" players really sound like they are out of reality. First of all, they don't even seem to know the role of the class. One says it's a primary tank, another says it's a hybrid, another says it's complementary to the CWs. Second, i read a lot of talking about "your personal experience", knowing few about how the other classes work or how they do compare to GWFs.
On the other hand, there is a fact:
GWFs are the least wanted class ina epic dungeon party, and it's not all due to the knocking mechanic, since it happens also in dungeons where you can't knock mobs down a cliff.
Ok Mr. reality check. Here is the bottom line. For the same reason that you feel GWFs are the least wanted, I can make the same statement for a GF and even TRs, YES TRs. There is absolutely no reason to bring in a TR let alone a GF in ANY dungeon. Any group obsessed with absolute bottom line efficiency, should take 4CW +1DC. You can burn through ANY T2, CN included, with 4xCWs + 1DC. There is absolutely nothing that a TR can do that another CW can't while bringing more to the table. I tank Draco on my CW all the time. 4CWs in Thauma specs with HV sets will burn Draco in under 3minutes.
Not ONE ounce of extra contribution can even the best specced/geared/skilled TR bring to the table. In fact I may be one of the few people who thinks TRs are EXTREMELY overrated. A GWF replacing a TR in any dungeon is providing 45% debuff for the entire party, which could be seen as the equivalent to the extra single target dps a TR brings. In any T2 that I ran without a TR, I never once felt that the run was taking longer. In these situation, I don't take on the role of a TR, but rather occupy the adds while the CWs single target the boss. I will occasionally switch to the boss to debuff, but in the end it works out the same.
With new content like MC, you can see the gap between the two classes shrinking eventhough GWFs got nerfed! How do you guys not see this? I repeat. GWFs got nerfed, which I am sure everyone agrees, and yet the gap in terms of overall damage between the GWF and the CW shrunk. Not only that, and take it from one with a CW as his main, CWs dps actually went UP with the recent change. That's how HUGE of an impact the content can make. In fact, I bet that everyone here can come up with new content ideas that would make it extremely difficult for a group dragging 1CW let alone 2CWs to succeed. Hec a content can be made where the most efficient setup would be nothing but GFs and GWFs.
That is why the main issue, which you and others are just stubbornly refusing to consider for one second, is the content and the boss mechanics that are in dire need for an overhaul. There is also the fact that CWs are on top of the food chain by default because of how the content is tailor made for the class. Giving the GWF extra damage, extra utility, extra stuns, faster AP regen would still not change the mentality of those that want to run at PEAK efficiency. No amount of reasonable buffing that would be given to the GWF class would automatically put them on par with CWs given the current content. Instead of buffing GWFs and making the already easy content even easier to manage, how about calling for a nerf of certain CW mechanics? Target cap of Singularity and other Powers to 5? Certain feat/set bonuses debuffs not stacking? Damage reduction with every extra target hit, just like GWFs?!
How do some you people enjoy a game where you can just steamroll through everything and then come on the forum asking for ways to make it even easier?! Are you guys even reading some of the things you're writing? NONE of you are asking for the GWF to get buffed because the content is hard to do on a GWF. You're asking for GWFs to be buffed so that your class can meet the definition of the "efficient frontier" set by some ******s who value their own selfish playstyle over the longevity of the game.
Some of us like options when choosing our skills. Removing AP per target on Roar removed options from the class. Why you ask? Well Punishing Charge has AP per target hit. Meaning if we want AP (yes we all want AP) then we are almost required to slot Punishing Charge. I suppose you could continue on the nerf GWF crusade and remove the AP per target on Punishing Charge OR you could restore Roar to it's former glory. Either way Punishing Charged is bugged in regards to Deep Gash.
True to the Instigator role I will continue to stir up the beehive until you put AP per target back on Roar.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited September 2013
copticone please stop posting rubbish like that.. You have a very one dimensional line of thought with GWF.. And think you are a GWF hero, reality check almost all GWF have left the game.. Reality check.. New player that chose GWF.. Once capped end up leaving the game... 99% of people that played GWF are not enjoying the game anymore
I stopped reading when you said the last patch closed the gap between GWF and CW lol....probably one of the worst statements on this forum!
Reality check.. So you think this is good for the long term of the game...
Stop getting on your high horse and let.. Everyone isn't happy.. And you are unable to even admit there is an issue..
copticone please stop posting rubbish like that.. You have a very one dimensional line of thought with GWF.. And think you are a GWF hero, reality check almost all GWF have left the game.. Reality check.. New player that chose GWF.. Once capped end up leaving the game... 99% of people that played GWF are not enjoying the game anymore
I stopped reading when you said the last patch closed the gap between GWF and CW lol....probably one of the worst statements on this forum!
Reality check.. So you think this is good for the long term of the game...
Stop getting on your high horse and let.. Everyone isn't happy.. And you are unable to even admit there is an issue..
i think someone said pandapaul for gwf president...well i agre 100% as ex gwf(all ranks 9.8)
and there is a guy(gwf) asking for advice in build go help him copti and take dkandy with you
In fact I may be one of the few people who thinks TRs are EXTREMELY overrated.
Copti this might be the single true fact you ever written so far.
That and the the dungeons are designed for the cws and mc less so.
Otherwise trust me in that you are one of the very few people left in this game that argues for a lost couse.
You seem like a nice enough fella reading between the lines but the end of the line is reached if you cant see why
most gwf are dissapearing like a paycheck on a friday night there is not much to add really.
I don't have an issue. I play my GWF as a marauder. Backup tank in a pinch, backup dps in a pinch. Some CC when I need it in pvp. I use my speed and mobility in pvp, and only have an 11k gs with t2 pvp and level 5 crystals.
I reached 60 the day after the patch. No, I do not know what gameplay was like before. But I see most complaints as those either repeating the gripes they've heard from others, or those who were used to one level of play, and are now not used to what they've become.
I argue that GWF's are still fully capable and a solid class. I argue that our role IS a mixed role of DPS and Tank (burst tank), and that we are great for groups that need to fill two billets with one character. I also argue that it's very possible that we will soon see a LOT of classes that are mixed and not the best in any one role.
Whether we should be buffed to make our AOE better ... I don't know. I could help us with a little bit of individuality, for sure. We have AOE capabilities, though they feel kinda weak to my character and build. Honestly, they just might not suit my playstyle and thus I'm unable to fully utilize them.
But we are not a useless class, we are not incapable of being a full-fledged party member, and I sincerely feel that 'bitter vets' are doing more to ruin the class for those who are enjoying it (by convincing uneducated non-GWF's that our class is 'ruined') than any nerf Cryptic has made yet.
Cryptic didn't kill GWF's. But many of you guys seem intent to make sure everyone else believes they did.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I don't have an issue. I play my GWF as a marauder. Backup tank in a pinch, backup dps in a pinch. Some CC when I need it in pvp. I use my speed and mobility in pvp, and only have an 11k gs with t2 pvp and level 5 crystals.
I reached 60 the day after the patch. No, I do not know what gameplay was like before. But I see most complaints as those either repeating the gripes they've heard from others, or those who were used to one level of play, and are now not used to what they've become.
I argue that GWF's are still fully capable and a solid class. I argue that our role IS a mixed role of DPS and Tank (burst tank), and that we are great for groups that need to fill two billets with one character. I also argue that it's very possible that we will soon see a LOT of classes that are mixed and not the best in any one role.
Whether we should be buffed to make our AOE better ... I don't know. I could help us with a little bit of individuality, for sure. We have AOE capabilities, though they feel kinda weak to my character and build. Honestly, they just might not suit my playstyle and thus I'm unable to fully utilize them.
But we are not a useless class, we are not incapable of being a full-fledged party member, and I sincerely feel that 'bitter vets' are doing more to ruin the class for those who are enjoying it (by convincing uneducated non-GWF's that our class is 'ruined') than any nerf Cryptic has made yet.
Cryptic didn't kill GWF's. But many of you guys seem intent to make sure everyone else believes they did.
well if people strive to be like you then go ahead play.or maybe they wanna be like me ranks 8,9 bis 2 sets.im just saying from my perspective that its impossibile to make a build like mine with gwf anymore.that is why i will never start another gwf even another class.and why are you here go and play prove me wrong...
No offence, but all the "GWF is ok" players really sound like they are out of reality. First of all, they don't even seem to know the role of the class. One says it's a primary tank, another says it's a hybrid, another says it's complementary to the CWs. Second, i read a lot of talking about "your personal experience", knowing few about how the other classes work or how they do compare to GWFs.
On the other hand, there is a fact:
GWFs are the least wanted class ina epic dungeon party, and it's not all due to the knocking mechanic, since it happens also in dungeons where you can't knock mobs down a cliff.
Also, there are many users, from many different classes, not just GWF, and with lots of experience, that expalined in details how stuff works. Yet people keep replying with pure guesses.
GWFs are tanks, while the devs says they excel at AoE DPS. A destroyer spec can't tank a crowd of mobs in a t2 epic dungeon, surely not with Unstoppable the way it is now. With at best 23k hp, a destroyer just can't take all the damage a crowd of lvl 65 adds can do. And if you go sentinel to tank, then your damage will not be enough to keep the mobs on you and tank.
Even if the AoE damage is comparable between GWF and CW, CWs have the cc. If the GWF is a destroyer he can't tank in an epic dungeon. If he's a sentinel, his AoE damage is not comparable to a CW.
"GWFs must AoE and keep the mobs busy while the CW is on cooldown". kidbs, read what you wrote again. What you wrote can be done better by a second CW. They cover each other cooldown and the second CW have the advantage of the cc.
And guess what... people makes parties with more than 1 CW! Incredible, right? May be they don't know the secrets you know!
The suggestion is not to just buff the AoE DPS. It's to make GWF the only class able to make AoE DPS, leaving the CW the role of cc. You know what could bring, having a class that can do both cc and aoe dps? Parties that are made with 2-3 CWs, 1 DC and 1 TR. Hey wait... but that's EXACTLY what's happening! Can you believe it?
Reality slaps you in the face and nuke all your guessing and blabbering about what a GWF is supposed to be.
My suggestion is that with GWFs primary AoE DPSrs in PvE, the best party composition would be
TR for boss dps
DC for heal
GF for tank
CW to cc the adds
GWF to AoE nuke them while they are tanked and cced
The GWF AoE damage would be always consistently higher than CWs, and the difference between a sentine or a destroyer wold just be who can deal more damage or have more survivability.
Right now, the CW do both the cc and AoE DPS role, reason why they are the most wanted class in a dungeon and multiple CWs is becoming the best choice.
Either all the experienced players who run t2 dungeons, and concluded that it's the best choice, are not as good as you and are doing it wrong, or perhaps the rest of the world is right and you are wrong. Cause reality is the opposite of what you say.
But i really love when a guy appears, saying it's all right cause he's doing fine, and may be it's just that people got used to the wrong way of forming a dungeon party.
Lol you really are off your rocker. Make GWFs the only class with AoE? So take AoE away from GFs and DCs too? So for your own selfish needs lets just ruin the game for everyone else. Have you considered for one moment that maybe, just maybe GWF isn't the class for you? Sounds like you should wait for barbarians to be released.
Lol you really are off your rocker. Make GWFs the only class with AoE? So take AoE away from GFs and DCs too? So for your own selfish needs lets just ruin the game for everyone else. Have you considered for one moment that maybe, just maybe GWF isn't the class for you? Sounds like you should wait for barbarians to be released.
so for your own selfish needs lets just ruin the game for everyone else.
cant see anything wrong with that tho you are just saying the opposite lol ruin gwf so we all be happy.
copticone please stop posting rubbish like that.. You have a very one dimensional line of thought with GWF.. And think you are a GWF hero, reality check almost all GWF have left the game.. Reality check.. New player that chose GWF.. Once capped end up leaving the game... 99% of people that played GWF are not enjoying the game anymore
And I am sure, you came up with all these statistics crunching numbers and looking at the internal log of Cryptic. Seriously? You actually use this type of BS in real life?
I stopped reading when you said the last patch closed the gap between GWF and CW lol....probably one of the worst statements on this forum!
No you didnt just stop reading, but you also stop comprehending. I said running MC shows a shrinking in the gap, making the point that all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that you are babbling about has more to do with the content rather than the class.
Reality check.. So you think this is good for the long term of the game...
Stop getting on your high horse and let.. Everyone isn't happy.. And you are unable to even admit there is an issue..
More evidence that you are just nothing but someone who babbles without reading. Go back through all the posts and you will see the issues I acknowledged. You and people like you sound so pathetic when you are making it seem like I am out here sabotaging the class, or that my comments have ANY baring on what the Devs do.
Because I am doing fine on my GWF, because I can find a spot for my GWF even with Pugs in zone chat, because I don't have an issue clearing and/or farming any content, and because I am relaying all that on the forum, I am then on a high horse. Well then can I borrow your freakin pony so I can become pathetic, melodramatic, playing with a one foot out the door mentality? Yes please, I think I will enjoy this game a lot more if I am standing in your shoes.
Copti this might be the single true fact you ever written so far.
That and the the dungeons are designed for the cws and mc less so.
Otherwise trust me in that you are one of the very few people left in this game that argues for a lost couse.
You seem like a nice enough fella reading between the lines but the end of the line is reached if you cant see why
most gwf are dissapearing like a paycheck on a friday night there is not much to add really.
Thank you for the change of pace to a more mature discussion. I am not arguing for ANY cause. I never once said GWF are perfect as is and to please leave them alone. I acknowledged several times the issues that need to be addressed with the class.
Most of the things that people are complaining about have been around since day 1. GWFs never had that utility or that imaginary "something" that people are crying over as if it was suddenly taken away from them. I mean the current hysteria on this forum would be equivalent to CWs loosing Singularity, Repel/Shield and Steal Time.
The question is, can the content be completed efficiently with pretty much any mix of classes, GWFs included? Of course it can. Are certain classes (actually just one) along with poor end-game content design lead to a more "efficient" run? Yes. But why place that setup as the standard by which class balance should be determined?
Instead of thinking, what can we do to make GWFs equally effective as a CW in a dungeon where 70% of the trash can be disposed of instantly, where the final boss requires a quirky tactic to kill in an acceptable time frame, where bugging out adds so they dont respawn is the norm, where glitching and soloing bosses from range is the default, the illogical and crazy person that I am thinks maybe we should first work on the content and not have it be catering to a specific class. Only then, can you really make a comparison between classes and discuss balance.
Lol you really are off your rocker. Make GWFs the only class with AoE? So take AoE away from GFs and DCs too? So for your own selfish needs lets just ruin the game for everyone else. Have you considered for one moment that maybe, just maybe GWF isn't the class for you? Sounds like you should wait for barbarians to be released.
To agree, this would be the same as saying 'remove knockdown and slow' from GWF's, because that's what Control Wizards are for. And tanking from GWF's, because that's what GF's are for. And single target attacks? Duh, we've got rogues.
Each class tips into other classes in their own way. And raising any class in capability pisses others off. Want an example? Give CW's stealth, see how many TR's start complaining (and who's to say a possible ranger class won't have stealth, eh?). I'm sure there were more than a few GF's who got no love because GWF's could tank as well as they could. And I'm sure they complained and supported nerfing unstoppable because of that same 'professional jealousy'.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited September 2013
some people just don't get it...
I have 25 gwfs on my friend list. 25.. you know how many I have seen in the last week??? 0.. not even 1!!!! You think that indicates a healthy future seriously??? I rarely see a capped GWF logged in now RARELY!!
And im happy that you are fine.. whatever... Maybe I see a different side of things because I run with the absolute elite players on my server.. And at this level.. the gap is a huge
The class is a mess.. I have respec so many times now trying to find a balance between threat/dps/survivability.. and the problem there is no balance.... I go full dps... gain threat.. lose too much survivability
I go survivability.. end up losing to much dps and threat.... resulting in NOT an elite tank...
that's the mess.. remember im running with elite players putting down big dps numbers... Sentinel does not work with the group I run.. at all... they just pull agro straight off... within a second or 2... its a joke
And this is coming from someone that has run CN 100+ times... THE CURRENT STATE OF GWF IS TERRIBLE
1) Not true. Destroyer spec stacking about 10% Lifesteal is the perfect blend of DPS/Survivability/Threat generation.
2) Ok Mr. reality check. Here is the bottom line. For the same reason that you feel GWFs are the least wanted, I can make the same statement for a GF and even TRs, YES TRs. There is absolutely no reason to bring in a TR let alone a GF in ANY dungeon. Any group obsessed with absolute bottom line efficiency, should take 4CW +1DC. You can burn through ANY T2, CN included, with 4xCWs + 1DC. There is absolutely nothing that a TR can do that another CW can't while bringing more to the table. I tank Draco on my CW all the time. 4CWs in Thauma specs with HV sets will burn Draco in under 3minutes.
Not ONE ounce of extra contribution can even the best specced/geared/skilled TR bring to the table. In fact I may be one of the few people who thinks TRs are EXTREMELY overrated. A GWF replacing a TR in any dungeon is providing 45% debuff for the entire party, which could be seen as the equivalent to the extra single target dps a TR brings. In any T2 that I ran without a TR, I never once felt that the run was taking longer. In these situation, I don't take on the role of a TR, but rather occupy the adds while the CWs single target the boss. I will occasionally switch to the boss to debuff, but in the end it works out the same.
3) With new content like MC, you can see the gap between the two classes shrinking eventhough GWFs got nerfed! How do you guys not see this? I repeat. GWFs got nerfed, which I am sure everyone agrees, and yet the gap in terms of overall damage between the GWF and the CW shrunk. Not only that, and take it from one with a CW as his main, CWs dps actually went UP with the recent change. That's how HUGE of an impact the content can make. In fact, I bet that everyone here can come up with new content ideas that would make it extremely difficult for a group dragging 1CW let alone 2CWs to succeed. Hec a content can be made where the most efficient setup would be nothing but GFs and GWFs.
4) That is why the main issue, which you and others are just stubbornly refusing to consider for one second, is the content and the boss mechanics that are in dire need for an overhaul. There is also the fact that CWs are on top of the food chain by default because of how the content is tailor made for the class. Giving the GWF extra damage, extra utility, extra stuns, faster AP regen would still not change the mentality of those that want to run at PEAK efficiency. No amount of reasonable buffing that would be given to the GWF class would automatically put them on par with CWs given the current content. Instead of buffing GWFs and making the already easy content even easier to manage, how about calling for a nerf of certain CW mechanics? Target cap of Singularity and other Powers to 5? Certain feat/set bonuses debuffs not stacking? Damage reduction with every extra target hit, just like GWFs?!
5) How do some you people enjoy a game where you can just steamroll through everything and then come on the forum asking for ways to make it even easier?! Are you guys even reading some of the things you're writing? NONE of you are asking for the GWF to get buffed because the content is hard to do on a GWF. You're asking for GWFs to be buffed so that your class can meet the definition of the "efficient frontier" set by some ******s who value their own selfish playstyle over the longevity of the game.
I've added numbers to your post so that I can address each point without re-writing "war and peace".
1) At what gear score? Are you waiting for the group to engage or leaping / sprinting in first? I've tried a similar build post-patch (at least it has 10% life steal - for all I know the rest of your stats vary wildly) and I felt very squishy (10.5k gs). Incidentally, I have rolled another GWF that is specifically designed for the Destroyer path. That may turn out differently. The question is, should I have to re-roll and completely redesign my toons every time the devs feel something needs a nerf? Isn't that a bit extreme?
2) So by your own admission you can see that CW is a cut above every other class in PvE. You also touch upon the effect this has on other classes so I ask you... If, for whatever reason, a third (or fourth ugh) CW cannot be found - what is the most likely choice of class? How does a GWF stack up against other classes? My answer: poorly in every dungeon except Pirate King.
3) The gap may have closed. How big was the gap to begin with in your opinion? From where I stand, the gap still feels pretty cavernous. Yeah, the devs may have closed the divide and may be taking steps in the right direction. It doesn't mean that the problem has gone away for many (if any). I find it interesting that you point to MC as the new standard as well. I haven't seen a group in PE that hasn't asked for 11k+ to join a MC run. How is a GWF meant to get to 11k+ if they can't get into "easier" content (tailored to CW). Do GWF have to buy all of their gear up to this point in order to participate? That doesn't seem very fair.
As for content favouring other classes - I don't disagree that I could think of things that would royally screw CWs but what could be done vs what is actually happening are two very separate topics. Such an argument holds little weight as it is very unlikely that the devs are going to adopt such a dungeon design philosophy any time soon.
4) Nope, I agree. A large part of the problem is content design and the attitude of the community as a whole. In fact, it is my firm belief that the community will destroy this game well before the devs do. However, what is a more likely solution to this problem? Are Cryptic going to redesign a dozen dungeons so that people can't exploit the strengths of CWs anymore or will they simply change some feats and powers for the respective classes ( and / or the equations governing the effect of stats on said classes)? Lets also remind ourselves of the stellar record the devs have of introducing more bugs / exploits into the game per patch than they fix.
As for the community, that leads to...
5) The efficient frontier - ah yes, the speed run. I doubt many of the people in PE asking for speed runs have any clue what that is or what the most efficient course of action is in any dungeon... but they like to think they do and the metagame that results dictates MORE CWs (which you concede is true in point 2). The metagame also dictates GWFs ARE BAD!!! It doesn't matter if it is true or not. It doesn't matter if a GWF can be in a group and get the dungeon done. The majority of people forming groups in PE DON'T WANT GWF. The damage is done... and I'm not just talking about PUGs either. In every guild I've been in up to this point, there have been three mandatory positions in a run - 2 CW and a DC and that was before the patch. As you've already stated, the most efficient group now is 4 CW and 1 DC - doesn't leave me with a lot of hope that the situation has gotten better.
As for buffing the GWF... well we all saw how that turned out in the previous patch didn't we? GWFs finally felt like a decent class and the tears that flowed (is it just me or are the majority of forum whiners CWs?) were of such volume and magnitude that the devs flailed their nerfbat and we're left with the carcass. Yet, when people who main GWFs start a thread complaining about feeling unwanted and begin exploring options as to how the situations might be fixed, people maining other classes invite themselves into the discussion saying "everything is fine" or "it's not the class, it's something else". Why? Feeling threatened? Got something to lose? Tell me, what's better for the longevity of the game? A system where one class completely outshines all others (in PvE) or a system where the class you play has no effect on the outcome or efficiency of a dungeon run?
Lol you really are off your rocker. Make GWFs the only class with AoE? So take AoE away from GFs and DCs too? So for your own selfish needs lets just ruin the game for everyone else. Have you considered for one moment that maybe, just maybe GWF isn't the class for you? Sounds like you should wait for barbarians to be released.
Too bad for you i DIDN'T write that they should be "the only class with AoE". I wrote that they should be the primary AoE damage dealers. Other classes would still do some AoE damage, but much lower than the GWF. Changing what people say and changing the reality of how things go in the game, won't make your argument right. DCs are primary healers. GFs are primary tanks. TR are primary DPS. CWs are primary cc and, right now, primary AoE. GWFs are primary nothing, and that's why they are the least wanted class in a party. Again, that's reality.
My suggestion is that the CWs in PvE should be able to cc and deal some damage, but the GWF should be the class needed to really deliver AoE DPS to take down the adds.
Right now, parties are shifting to multiple CWs and GWF are consistently being left out of epic dungoens. Again, reality proves that you're wrong and that's seriously something that must be changed, and that CWs design and GWF design should be changed to give a role to the latter, and to make the first just a specialized class and not a "we-do-everything" class.
As copti said, it's already too bad that in some dungeons all you need are CWs to push mobs off a cliff. But if they are also the main asset in dungeons where you can't do that, just cause they can both cc and AoE DPS, then something is wrong.
If you can't admit it, you're just out of reality. No offence.
that's the mess.. remember im running with elite players putting down big dps numbers... Sentinel does not work with the group I run.. at all... they just pull agro straight off... within a second or 2... its a joke
And this is coming from someone that has run CN 100+ times... THE CURRENT STATE OF GWF IS TERRIBLE
and that's the reality!
So you have 25 GWFs on your list. You live, breath, and eat GWF and you know the class inside and out. You run with the Elites of elites who put out major dps. Clearly far better credential than I can claim. And yet your experience led you to believe that Sentinel is the way to go to tank end game content with top tier players. I guess it didnt cross your mind that the threat generating feats of Sentinel is absolute garbage. That the only REAL way of generating threat for a GWF is through RAW dps. That just by stacking Lifesteal you can stand toe to toe with 5-10 mobs aggroing on you without even needing an Astral Shield. That with Unstoppable + Daring Shout and a DC's Foresight you are already at the 80% DR cap.
It turns out that running CN 100+ times is really not an indication of experience, especially if you are doing it with a class that can neither punt or bug out Red Wizards.
So you have 25 GWFs on your list. You live, breath, and eat GWF and you know the class inside and out. You run with the Elites of elites who put out major dps. Clearly far better credential than I can claim. And yet your experience led you to believe that Sentinel is the way to go to tank end game content with top tier players. I guess it didnt cross your mind that the threat generating feats of Sentinel is absolute garbage. That the only REAL way of generating threat for a GWF is through RAW dps. That just by stacking Lifesteal you can stand toe to toe with 5-10 mobs aggroing on you without even needing an Astral Shield. That with Unstoppable + Daring Shout and a DC's Foresight you are already at the 80% DR cap.
It turns out that running CN 100+ times is really not an indication of experience, especially if you are doing it with a class that can neither punt or bug out Red Wizards.
That is not what he meant by it, you should really considered checking your reading comprehension, you should read the whole post and not just "quote" small part of it, just saying. LOL.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
So you have 25 GWFs on your list. You live, breath, and eat GWF and you know the class inside and out. You run with the Elites of elites who put out major dps. Clearly far better credential than I can claim. And yet your experience led you to believe that Sentinel is the way to go to tank end game content with top tier players. I guess it didnt cross your mind that the threat generating feats of Sentinel is absolute garbage. That the only REAL way of generating threat for a GWF is through RAW dps. That just by stacking Lifesteal you can stand toe to toe with 5-10 mobs aggroing on you without even needing an Astral Shield. That with Unstoppable + Daring Shout and a DC's Foresight you are already at the 80% DR cap.
It turns out that running CN 100+ times is really not an indication of experience, especially if you are doing it with a class that can neither punt or bug out Red Wizards.
Stupid sarcasm doesn't bring anything constructive to this thread...
Noticed the link in your signature shows that you are more a CW than anything else.. If a GWF at all..
Is this proof of the sham replies u provide?
Add something constructive or nothing at all please
So you have 25 GWFs on your list. You live, breath, and eat GWF and you know the class inside and out. You run with the Elites of elites who put out major dps. Clearly far better credential than I can claim. And yet your experience led you to believe that Sentinel is the way to go to tank end game content with top tier players. I guess it didnt cross your mind that the threat generating feats of Sentinel is absolute garbage. That the only REAL way of generating threat for a GWF is through RAW dps. That just by stacking Lifesteal you can stand toe to toe with 5-10 mobs aggroing on you without even needing an Astral Shield. That with Unstoppable + Daring Shout and a DC's Foresight you are already at the 80% DR cap.
It turns out that running CN 100+ times is really not an indication of experience, especially if you are doing it with a class that can neither punt or bug out Red Wizards.
wow just wow ...panda quotes "Sentinel does not work with the group I run.. at all"
and then your answer to that " And yet your experience led you to believe that Sentinel is the way to go to tank end game content with top tier players"
THAT IS SOME FUNNY STUFF LOL.
now i say panda is a destroyer on beholder with best gear i met him.then you will say ITS NOT GOOD THAT HES SENTINEL TO PULL AGRO.LOLOLOLOLOL
Stupid sarcasm doesn't bring anything constructive to this thread...
Noticed the link in your signature shows that you are more a CW than anything else.. If a GWF at all..
Is this proof of the sham replies u provide?
Add something constructive or nothing at all please
Constructive? you mean something like what you just wrote? Or constructive as in coming on this thread and saying how GWF are just garbage and then follow it by posting a new thread about your recent "bronzewood" build stating how your are now topping DPS?
My post was spot on. I was pointing the fact that you are still learning how to play the class, since you were referring to the Sentinel tree and how hard of a time you were having with it running with your elite friends. This fact is even more apparent since you just recently (and after 100+ CN runs) started using a build that I, along with many GWFs still topping dps, have been using for a long time. Unless of course you were using it all this time and just decided 2 days ago to share your success and I quote "I have started topping dps charts again...". So thank you for proving that GWFs can still top dps charts and are in fact viable.
Oh, and here is a tip. Drop the bronzewood. Still much better off with Vorpal, GPF, or Lightning. And if you want to switch it up a little to be able to tank anything, just add 10% Lifesteal. Now you can be viable equally as dps and full tank.
You JUST noticed my Signature? lol, probably like you JUST noticed the Destroyer tree. You figured me out. I am just here pretending to have a GWF.
Btw does the sent feat that increases damage by 15% to marked targets work with the bronzewood mark? Also how long does the mark last? thanks for the info
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
So you have 25 GWFs on your list. You live, breath, and eat GWF and you know the class inside and out. You run with the Elites of elites who put out major dps. Clearly far better credential than I can claim. And yet your experience led you to believe that Sentinel is the way to go to tank end game content with top tier players. I guess it didnt cross your mind that the threat generating feats of Sentinel is absolute garbage. That the only REAL way of generating threat for a GWF is through RAW dps. That just by stacking Lifesteal you can stand toe to toe with 5-10 mobs aggroing on you without even needing an Astral Shield. That with Unstoppable + Daring Shout and a DC's Foresight you are already at the 80% DR cap.
It turns out that running CN 100+ times is really not an indication of experience, especially if you are doing it with a class that can neither punt or bug out Red Wizards.
Constructive? you mean something like what you just wrote? Or constructive as in coming on this thread and saying how GWF are just garbage and then follow it by posting a new thread about your recent "bronzewood" build stating how your are now topping DPS?
My post was spot on. I was pointing the fact that you are still learning how to play the class, since you were referring to the Sentinel tree and how hard of a time you were having with it running with your elite friends. This fact is even more apparent since you just recently (and after 100+ CN runs) started using a build that I, along with many GWFs still topping dps, have been using for a long time. Unless of course you were using it all this time and just decided 2 days ago to share your success and I quote "I have started topping dps charts again...". So thank you for proving that GWFs can still top dps charts and are in fact viable.
Oh, and here is a tip. Drop the bronzewood. Still much better off with Vorpal, GPF, or Lightning. And if you want to switch it up a little to be able to tank anything, just add 10% Lifesteal. Now you can be viable equally as dps and full tank.
You JUST noticed my Signature? lol, probably like you JUST noticed the Destroyer tree. You figured me out. I am just here pretending to have a GWF.
I have been spec destroyer for months.. Topping dps charts... Then came that dreaded nerf a couple of weeks ago.. Dps dropped by around 30%.. So I decided to give sentinel a run to see how it went..
Don't tell me I'm learning the class.. You don't know me.. Don't pretend like you have any idea what I have been doing..
I had to tinker significantly to get to the top of dps charts again.. And invest alot more AD to get close to where the class was ore patch.. And it still is a fair way off that point befor the patch
And your advice about the weapon enchantments is wrong.. As per usual.. I was spec in destroyer with a perfect vorpal running almost 40% crit at 140% crit severity. And it wasn't efficient at all... I'm doing more solid dps now with the bronze wood.. Oh and I had a greater lightning too.. And again.. That wasn't as efficient as the bronzewood..
So my advice drop any weapon enchant u have.. Cause it's obviously the wrong one..
Why don't u post a dps chart of your "amazing dps" with the GS of the others in party so everyone can see just how amazing you think you are...
Show me anything you have said that's constructive! You keep saying "GWF is ok" that's pretty much it
I have been spec destroyer for months.. Topping dps charts... Then came that dreaded nerf a couple of weeks ago.. Dps dropped by around 30%.. So I decided to give sentinel a run to see how it went..
Don't tell me I'm learning the class.. You don't know me.. Don't pretend like you have any idea what I have been doing..
I had to tinker significantly to get to the top of dps charts again.. And invest alot more AD to get close to where the class was ore patch.. And it still is a fair way off that point befor the patch
And your advice about the weapon enchantments is wrong.. As per usual.. I was spec in destroyer with a perfect vorpal running almost 40% crit at 140% crit severity. And it wasn't efficient at all... I'm doing more solid dps now with the bronze wood.. Oh and I had a greater lightning too.. And again.. That wasn't as efficient as the bronzewood..
So my advice drop any weapon enchant u have.. Cause it's obviously the wrong one..
Why don't u post a dps chart of your "amazing dps" with the GS of the others in party so everyone can see just how amazing you think you are...
Show me anything you have said that's constructive! You keep saying "GWF is ok" that's pretty much it
This guys a joke
You had to TINKER significantly to get to this build, eventhough you were in a Destroyer spec before. So you went from a Destroyer spec that lost 30% damage after the recent patch to a Destroyer build that now tops dps charts again. Wow, I didn't know there was such a wide spectrum of Destroyer builds. I think it would be enlightening for everyone to show us the transformation. How much AD you spent on what? The points you moved within the tree that gave you such a huge dps jump? After all, someone with your experience should have a lot more to offer. With regards to the Bronzewood, I will not derail the thread even further. You're happy swinging a weapon that applies 10seconds debuff, and another 10seconds of nothing, that's your choice. I will wallow with my imaginary GWF, doing imaginary things, pretending I am doing good dps using ineffective enchants. I guess I was extremely lucky just randomly putting points in feats to come up with this and saved myself a TON of AD and months of Tinkering.
So just so we're all clear, and after your TINKERing, as of today 9/3/2013 do GWF completely suck and are a dead class, or still viable and can still top damage? Because I am sure many people are confused which side of the fence you're on right now.
"This fact is even more apparent since you just recently (and after 100+ CN runs) started using a build that I, along with many GWFs still topping dps, have been using for a long time"
Been using it for a long time, eh? Along with many others?
Pray tell, if it's a build that has been known for such a long time and been used by many pro GWFs, yourself included, before and after the patch, then how come this is the first time I've seen even the slightest mention of it?
All in all a informative thread beside some ego written text about who wrote what :-).
Lets sum things up a bit.
1.Gwf class is perfectly capable of doing t2 runs with aboutish 11k GS and contribute to most groups.
2.Cw does better with less gear score party becouse how dungeons are consructed.
3. Cw has better cc and better aoe dam than Gwf and as such people rather take another Cw before a Gwf
4. In average groups a good Gwf will still preforme very well even topping the charts if the Cw isd doing his jobb bunching mobs together.
5. Gf has better aggro control and if specked and equipped right can tank somewhat better then Gwfs.
6.Tr is king of single target dam and is tanking bosses better then Gf or Gwf:s due to evation mechanics.
Problems for gwf in todays NW dungeons runs.
1. You need slightly higher GS to become a valid asset (doeble but not any real reason is should be so)
2. The dungeons are constructed in such a way that groups really dont need a tank(both Gf and Gwf class suffer from this ofc)
3. When the dungeons do contribute more toward tank classes another Cw is often a better solution as they can work together to avoid getting hit with cc and aoe and due to higher aoe dps together with cc control again no tank is needed.
4.The general population will not pick Gwfs for groups becouse of above reasons and therefore Gwfs has a hard time gearing up.
5. In the absolute high end game (lets say 14k gs and up) gwfs can no longer compeate with other classes due to the lack of specializations the Gwfs class has when it comes to dps cc and tanking.
In reality all this meens that Gwf (Gfs to some extent) has a bit harder to get gear and groups then other classes.
If you dont have a guild or friends (in which there seem to be less of an issue) Gwfs is the 6th wheel out of 5 when it comes to making up groups and as such they go LFG without getting groups alot more then other classes.
Now if this above is correct a) can we live with it or b) should something be done about it.
If a move along and have a nice and dandy day if b try to be constructive of how to remedy the problem.
It is my view that the devs will not remake that dungeons in such a way that tanks will be more needed/wanted and that any change has to be adressed to the classes. (i ofc might be wrong in this but i highly daubt it)
If they manage to give the comming classes abilitys that compleatly change how groups are formed today it is a later problem that i can not adress right now so i suggest we leave that part out.
Best
Too bad for you i DIDN'T write that they should be "the only class with AoE". I wrote that they should be the primary AoE damage dealers. Other classes would still do some AoE damage, but much lower than the GWF. Changing what people say and changing the reality of how things go in the game, won't make your argument right. DCs are primary healers. GFs are primary tanks. TR are primary DPS. CWs are primary cc and, right now, primary AoE. GWFs are primary nothing, and that's why they are the least wanted class in a party. Again, that's reality.
My suggestion is that the CWs in PvE should be able to cc and deal some damage, but the GWF should be the class needed to really deliver AoE DPS to take down the adds.
Right now, parties are shifting to multiple CWs and GWF are consistently being left out of epic dungoens. Again, reality proves that you're wrong and that's seriously something that must be changed, and that CWs design and GWF design should be changed to give a role to the latter, and to make the first just a specialized class and not a "we-do-everything" class.
As copti said, it's already too bad that in some dungeons all you need are CWs to push mobs off a cliff. But if they are also the main asset in dungeons where you can't do that, just cause they can both cc and AoE DPS, then something is wrong.
If you can't admit it, you're just out of reality. No offence.
Comments
The CW is massively overpowered. Its Ice Knife makes Shocking Execution look pathetic. The massive area damage done when coupled with Crowd Control is simply overpowered. I have level 60 in ALL classes. I cannot get into dungeons any more with a GWF. That is how bad this situation is, I actually cannot play my main character.
So what changes would I like to see:
At wills
Weapon master strike can affect up to eight NPCs;
wicked strike can affect up to eight NPCs.
Encounters
Roar - renamed Battle Cry (That frees up Roar for the Barbarian - where it always should have been.) Roar generated Action Points and Marks.
Come and Get It - Marks as well as pulls.
Daring Shout - Marks just like GF.
Dailys
Slam - return the dps to where it was.
Avalanche - reduce the time between activbation and damage by 50%
Destroyer should be renamed Battlemaster; Destroyer is what Barbarians do.
Pure tank build - Sentinel - Lift the threat substantially as it is a tanking build.
Pure AoE Damage class - Battlemaster - AoE damage
Pure control and damage class - Instigator - Avalanche now knocks to ground and dazes for a short while.
Just a few thoughts; Flame suit donned and go for it.
On the other hand, there is a fact:
GWFs are the least wanted class ina epic dungeon party, and it's not all due to the knocking mechanic, since it happens also in dungeons where you can't knock mobs down a cliff.
Also, there are many users, from many different classes, not just GWF, and with lots of experience, that expalined in details how stuff works. Yet people keep replying with pure guesses.
GWFs are tanks, while the devs says they excel at AoE DPS. A destroyer spec can't tank a crowd of mobs in a t2 epic dungeon, surely not with Unstoppable the way it is now. With at best 23k hp, a destroyer just can't take all the damage a crowd of lvl 65 adds can do. And if you go sentinel to tank, then your damage will not be enough to keep the mobs on you and tank.
Even if the AoE damage is comparable between GWF and CW, CWs have the cc. If the GWF is a destroyer he can't tank in an epic dungeon. If he's a sentinel, his AoE damage is not comparable to a CW.
"GWFs must AoE and keep the mobs busy while the CW is on cooldown". kidbs, read what you wrote again. What you wrote can be done better by a second CW. They cover each other cooldown and the second CW have the advantage of the cc.
And guess what... people makes parties with more than 1 CW! Incredible, right? May be they don't know the secrets you know!
The suggestion is not to just buff the AoE DPS. It's to make GWF the only class able to make AoE DPS, leaving the CW the role of cc. You know what could bring, having a class that can do both cc and aoe dps? Parties that are made with 2-3 CWs, 1 DC and 1 TR. Hey wait... but that's EXACTLY what's happening! Can you believe it?
Reality slaps you in the face and nuke all your guessing and blabbering about what a GWF is supposed to be.
My suggestion is that with GWFs primary AoE DPSrs in PvE, the best party composition would be
TR for boss dps
DC for heal
GF for tank
CW to cc the adds
GWF to AoE nuke them while they are tanked and cced
The GWF AoE damage would be always consistently higher than CWs, and the difference between a sentine or a destroyer wold just be who can deal more damage or have more survivability.
Right now, the CW do both the cc and AoE DPS role, reason why they are the most wanted class in a dungeon and multiple CWs is becoming the best choice.
Either all the experienced players who run t2 dungeons, and concluded that it's the best choice, are not as good as you and are doing it wrong, or perhaps the rest of the world is right and you are wrong. Cause reality is the opposite of what you say.
But i really love when a guy appears, saying it's all right cause he's doing fine, and may be it's just that people got used to the wrong way of forming a dungeon party.
Not true. Destroyer spec stacking about 10% Lifesteal is the perfect blend of DPS/Survivability/Threat generation.
Ok Mr. reality check. Here is the bottom line. For the same reason that you feel GWFs are the least wanted, I can make the same statement for a GF and even TRs, YES TRs. There is absolutely no reason to bring in a TR let alone a GF in ANY dungeon. Any group obsessed with absolute bottom line efficiency, should take 4CW +1DC. You can burn through ANY T2, CN included, with 4xCWs + 1DC. There is absolutely nothing that a TR can do that another CW can't while bringing more to the table. I tank Draco on my CW all the time. 4CWs in Thauma specs with HV sets will burn Draco in under 3minutes.
Not ONE ounce of extra contribution can even the best specced/geared/skilled TR bring to the table. In fact I may be one of the few people who thinks TRs are EXTREMELY overrated. A GWF replacing a TR in any dungeon is providing 45% debuff for the entire party, which could be seen as the equivalent to the extra single target dps a TR brings. In any T2 that I ran without a TR, I never once felt that the run was taking longer. In these situation, I don't take on the role of a TR, but rather occupy the adds while the CWs single target the boss. I will occasionally switch to the boss to debuff, but in the end it works out the same.
With new content like MC, you can see the gap between the two classes shrinking eventhough GWFs got nerfed! How do you guys not see this? I repeat. GWFs got nerfed, which I am sure everyone agrees, and yet the gap in terms of overall damage between the GWF and the CW shrunk. Not only that, and take it from one with a CW as his main, CWs dps actually went UP with the recent change. That's how HUGE of an impact the content can make. In fact, I bet that everyone here can come up with new content ideas that would make it extremely difficult for a group dragging 1CW let alone 2CWs to succeed. Hec a content can be made where the most efficient setup would be nothing but GFs and GWFs.
That is why the main issue, which you and others are just stubbornly refusing to consider for one second, is the content and the boss mechanics that are in dire need for an overhaul. There is also the fact that CWs are on top of the food chain by default because of how the content is tailor made for the class. Giving the GWF extra damage, extra utility, extra stuns, faster AP regen would still not change the mentality of those that want to run at PEAK efficiency. No amount of reasonable buffing that would be given to the GWF class would automatically put them on par with CWs given the current content. Instead of buffing GWFs and making the already easy content even easier to manage, how about calling for a nerf of certain CW mechanics? Target cap of Singularity and other Powers to 5? Certain feat/set bonuses debuffs not stacking? Damage reduction with every extra target hit, just like GWFs?!
How do some you people enjoy a game where you can just steamroll through everything and then come on the forum asking for ways to make it even easier?! Are you guys even reading some of the things you're writing? NONE of you are asking for the GWF to get buffed because the content is hard to do on a GWF. You're asking for GWFs to be buffed so that your class can meet the definition of the "efficient frontier" set by some ******s who value their own selfish playstyle over the longevity of the game.
Some of us like options when choosing our skills. Removing AP per target on Roar removed options from the class. Why you ask? Well Punishing Charge has AP per target hit. Meaning if we want AP (yes we all want AP) then we are almost required to slot Punishing Charge. I suppose you could continue on the nerf GWF crusade and remove the AP per target on Punishing Charge OR you could restore Roar to it's former glory. Either way Punishing Charged is bugged in regards to Deep Gash.
True to the Instigator role I will continue to stir up the beehive until you put AP per target back on Roar.
I stopped reading when you said the last patch closed the gap between GWF and CW lol....probably one of the worst statements on this forum!
Reality check.. So you think this is good for the long term of the game...
Stop getting on your high horse and let.. Everyone isn't happy.. And you are unable to even admit there is an issue..
i think someone said pandapaul for gwf president...well i agre 100% as ex gwf(all ranks 9.8)
and there is a guy(gwf) asking for advice in build go help him copti and take dkandy with you
Copti this might be the single true fact you ever written so far.
That and the the dungeons are designed for the cws and mc less so.
Otherwise trust me in that you are one of the very few people left in this game that argues for a lost couse.
You seem like a nice enough fella reading between the lines but the end of the line is reached if you cant see why
most gwf are dissapearing like a paycheck on a friday night there is not much to add really.
I reached 60 the day after the patch. No, I do not know what gameplay was like before. But I see most complaints as those either repeating the gripes they've heard from others, or those who were used to one level of play, and are now not used to what they've become.
I argue that GWF's are still fully capable and a solid class. I argue that our role IS a mixed role of DPS and Tank (burst tank), and that we are great for groups that need to fill two billets with one character. I also argue that it's very possible that we will soon see a LOT of classes that are mixed and not the best in any one role.
Whether we should be buffed to make our AOE better ... I don't know. I could help us with a little bit of individuality, for sure. We have AOE capabilities, though they feel kinda weak to my character and build. Honestly, they just might not suit my playstyle and thus I'm unable to fully utilize them.
But we are not a useless class, we are not incapable of being a full-fledged party member, and I sincerely feel that 'bitter vets' are doing more to ruin the class for those who are enjoying it (by convincing uneducated non-GWF's that our class is 'ruined') than any nerf Cryptic has made yet.
Cryptic didn't kill GWF's. But many of you guys seem intent to make sure everyone else believes they did.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
well if people strive to be like you then go ahead play.or maybe they wanna be like me ranks 8,9 bis 2 sets.im just saying from my perspective that its impossibile to make a build like mine with gwf anymore.that is why i will never start another gwf even another class.and why are you here go and play prove me wrong...
Lol you really are off your rocker. Make GWFs the only class with AoE? So take AoE away from GFs and DCs too? So for your own selfish needs lets just ruin the game for everyone else. Have you considered for one moment that maybe, just maybe GWF isn't the class for you? Sounds like you should wait for barbarians to be released.
so for your own selfish needs lets just ruin the game for everyone else.
cant see anything wrong with that tho you are just saying the opposite lol ruin gwf so we all be happy.
Then you can't read and need to go back to school. You're the only ones asking for nerfs and totally revamping every other class around your own.
And I am sure, you came up with all these statistics crunching numbers and looking at the internal log of Cryptic. Seriously? You actually use this type of BS in real life?
No you didnt just stop reading, but you also stop comprehending. I said running MC shows a shrinking in the gap, making the point that all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that you are babbling about has more to do with the content rather than the class.
More evidence that you are just nothing but someone who babbles without reading. Go back through all the posts and you will see the issues I acknowledged. You and people like you sound so pathetic when you are making it seem like I am out here sabotaging the class, or that my comments have ANY baring on what the Devs do.
Because I am doing fine on my GWF, because I can find a spot for my GWF even with Pugs in zone chat, because I don't have an issue clearing and/or farming any content, and because I am relaying all that on the forum, I am then on a high horse. Well then can I borrow your freakin pony so I can become pathetic, melodramatic, playing with a one foot out the door mentality? Yes please, I think I will enjoy this game a lot more if I am standing in your shoes.
Thank you for the change of pace to a more mature discussion. I am not arguing for ANY cause. I never once said GWF are perfect as is and to please leave them alone. I acknowledged several times the issues that need to be addressed with the class.
Most of the things that people are complaining about have been around since day 1. GWFs never had that utility or that imaginary "something" that people are crying over as if it was suddenly taken away from them. I mean the current hysteria on this forum would be equivalent to CWs loosing Singularity, Repel/Shield and Steal Time.
The question is, can the content be completed efficiently with pretty much any mix of classes, GWFs included? Of course it can. Are certain classes (actually just one) along with poor end-game content design lead to a more "efficient" run? Yes. But why place that setup as the standard by which class balance should be determined?
Instead of thinking, what can we do to make GWFs equally effective as a CW in a dungeon where 70% of the trash can be disposed of instantly, where the final boss requires a quirky tactic to kill in an acceptable time frame, where bugging out adds so they dont respawn is the norm, where glitching and soloing bosses from range is the default, the illogical and crazy person that I am thinks maybe we should first work on the content and not have it be catering to a specific class. Only then, can you really make a comparison between classes and discuss balance.
To agree, this would be the same as saying 'remove knockdown and slow' from GWF's, because that's what Control Wizards are for. And tanking from GWF's, because that's what GF's are for. And single target attacks? Duh, we've got rogues.
Each class tips into other classes in their own way. And raising any class in capability pisses others off. Want an example? Give CW's stealth, see how many TR's start complaining (and who's to say a possible ranger class won't have stealth, eh?). I'm sure there were more than a few GF's who got no love because GWF's could tank as well as they could. And I'm sure they complained and supported nerfing unstoppable because of that same 'professional jealousy'.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I have 25 gwfs on my friend list. 25.. you know how many I have seen in the last week??? 0.. not even 1!!!! You think that indicates a healthy future seriously??? I rarely see a capped GWF logged in now RARELY!!
And im happy that you are fine.. whatever... Maybe I see a different side of things because I run with the absolute elite players on my server.. And at this level.. the gap is a huge
The class is a mess.. I have respec so many times now trying to find a balance between threat/dps/survivability.. and the problem there is no balance.... I go full dps... gain threat.. lose too much survivability
I go survivability.. end up losing to much dps and threat.... resulting in NOT an elite tank...
that's the mess.. remember im running with elite players putting down big dps numbers... Sentinel does not work with the group I run.. at all... they just pull agro straight off... within a second or 2... its a joke
And this is coming from someone that has run CN 100+ times... THE CURRENT STATE OF GWF IS TERRIBLE
and that's the reality!
I've added numbers to your post so that I can address each point without re-writing "war and peace".
1) At what gear score? Are you waiting for the group to engage or leaping / sprinting in first? I've tried a similar build post-patch (at least it has 10% life steal - for all I know the rest of your stats vary wildly) and I felt very squishy (10.5k gs). Incidentally, I have rolled another GWF that is specifically designed for the Destroyer path. That may turn out differently. The question is, should I have to re-roll and completely redesign my toons every time the devs feel something needs a nerf? Isn't that a bit extreme?
2) So by your own admission you can see that CW is a cut above every other class in PvE. You also touch upon the effect this has on other classes so I ask you... If, for whatever reason, a third (or fourth ugh) CW cannot be found - what is the most likely choice of class? How does a GWF stack up against other classes? My answer: poorly in every dungeon except Pirate King.
3) The gap may have closed. How big was the gap to begin with in your opinion? From where I stand, the gap still feels pretty cavernous. Yeah, the devs may have closed the divide and may be taking steps in the right direction. It doesn't mean that the problem has gone away for many (if any). I find it interesting that you point to MC as the new standard as well. I haven't seen a group in PE that hasn't asked for 11k+ to join a MC run. How is a GWF meant to get to 11k+ if they can't get into "easier" content (tailored to CW). Do GWF have to buy all of their gear up to this point in order to participate? That doesn't seem very fair.
As for content favouring other classes - I don't disagree that I could think of things that would royally screw CWs but what could be done vs what is actually happening are two very separate topics. Such an argument holds little weight as it is very unlikely that the devs are going to adopt such a dungeon design philosophy any time soon.
4) Nope, I agree. A large part of the problem is content design and the attitude of the community as a whole. In fact, it is my firm belief that the community will destroy this game well before the devs do. However, what is a more likely solution to this problem? Are Cryptic going to redesign a dozen dungeons so that people can't exploit the strengths of CWs anymore or will they simply change some feats and powers for the respective classes ( and / or the equations governing the effect of stats on said classes)? Lets also remind ourselves of the stellar record the devs have of introducing more bugs / exploits into the game per patch than they fix.
As for the community, that leads to...
5) The efficient frontier - ah yes, the speed run. I doubt many of the people in PE asking for speed runs have any clue what that is or what the most efficient course of action is in any dungeon... but they like to think they do and the metagame that results dictates MORE CWs (which you concede is true in point 2). The metagame also dictates GWFs ARE BAD!!! It doesn't matter if it is true or not. It doesn't matter if a GWF can be in a group and get the dungeon done. The majority of people forming groups in PE DON'T WANT GWF. The damage is done... and I'm not just talking about PUGs either. In every guild I've been in up to this point, there have been three mandatory positions in a run - 2 CW and a DC and that was before the patch. As you've already stated, the most efficient group now is 4 CW and 1 DC - doesn't leave me with a lot of hope that the situation has gotten better.
As for buffing the GWF... well we all saw how that turned out in the previous patch didn't we? GWFs finally felt like a decent class and the tears that flowed (is it just me or are the majority of forum whiners CWs?) were of such volume and magnitude that the devs flailed their nerfbat and we're left with the carcass. Yet, when people who main GWFs start a thread complaining about feeling unwanted and begin exploring options as to how the situations might be fixed, people maining other classes invite themselves into the discussion saying "everything is fine" or "it's not the class, it's something else". Why? Feeling threatened? Got something to lose? Tell me, what's better for the longevity of the game? A system where one class completely outshines all others (in PvE) or a system where the class you play has no effect on the outcome or efficiency of a dungeon run?
Too bad for you i DIDN'T write that they should be "the only class with AoE". I wrote that they should be the primary AoE damage dealers. Other classes would still do some AoE damage, but much lower than the GWF. Changing what people say and changing the reality of how things go in the game, won't make your argument right. DCs are primary healers. GFs are primary tanks. TR are primary DPS. CWs are primary cc and, right now, primary AoE. GWFs are primary nothing, and that's why they are the least wanted class in a party. Again, that's reality.
My suggestion is that the CWs in PvE should be able to cc and deal some damage, but the GWF should be the class needed to really deliver AoE DPS to take down the adds.
Right now, parties are shifting to multiple CWs and GWF are consistently being left out of epic dungoens. Again, reality proves that you're wrong and that's seriously something that must be changed, and that CWs design and GWF design should be changed to give a role to the latter, and to make the first just a specialized class and not a "we-do-everything" class.
As copti said, it's already too bad that in some dungeons all you need are CWs to push mobs off a cliff. But if they are also the main asset in dungeons where you can't do that, just cause they can both cc and AoE DPS, then something is wrong.
If you can't admit it, you're just out of reality. No offence.
So you have 25 GWFs on your list. You live, breath, and eat GWF and you know the class inside and out. You run with the Elites of elites who put out major dps. Clearly far better credential than I can claim. And yet your experience led you to believe that Sentinel is the way to go to tank end game content with top tier players. I guess it didnt cross your mind that the threat generating feats of Sentinel is absolute garbage. That the only REAL way of generating threat for a GWF is through RAW dps. That just by stacking Lifesteal you can stand toe to toe with 5-10 mobs aggroing on you without even needing an Astral Shield. That with Unstoppable + Daring Shout and a DC's Foresight you are already at the 80% DR cap.
It turns out that running CN 100+ times is really not an indication of experience, especially if you are doing it with a class that can neither punt or bug out Red Wizards.
That is not what he meant by it, you should really considered checking your reading comprehension, you should read the whole post and not just "quote" small part of it, just saying. LOL.
Stupid sarcasm doesn't bring anything constructive to this thread...
Noticed the link in your signature shows that you are more a CW than anything else.. If a GWF at all..
Is this proof of the sham replies u provide?
Add something constructive or nothing at all please
wow just wow ...panda quotes "Sentinel does not work with the group I run.. at all"
and then your answer to that " And yet your experience led you to believe that Sentinel is the way to go to tank end game content with top tier players"
THAT IS SOME FUNNY STUFF LOL.
now i say panda is a destroyer on beholder with best gear i met him.then you will say ITS NOT GOOD THAT HES SENTINEL TO PULL AGRO.LOLOLOLOLOL
Constructive? you mean something like what you just wrote? Or constructive as in coming on this thread and saying how GWF are just garbage and then follow it by posting a new thread about your recent "bronzewood" build stating how your are now topping DPS?
My post was spot on. I was pointing the fact that you are still learning how to play the class, since you were referring to the Sentinel tree and how hard of a time you were having with it running with your elite friends. This fact is even more apparent since you just recently (and after 100+ CN runs) started using a build that I, along with many GWFs still topping dps, have been using for a long time. Unless of course you were using it all this time and just decided 2 days ago to share your success and I quote "I have started topping dps charts again...". So thank you for proving that GWFs can still top dps charts and are in fact viable.
Oh, and here is a tip. Drop the bronzewood. Still much better off with Vorpal, GPF, or Lightning. And if you want to switch it up a little to be able to tank anything, just add 10% Lifesteal. Now you can be viable equally as dps and full tank.
You JUST noticed my Signature? lol, probably like you JUST noticed the Destroyer tree. You figured me out. I am just here pretending to have a GWF.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I have been spec destroyer for months.. Topping dps charts... Then came that dreaded nerf a couple of weeks ago.. Dps dropped by around 30%.. So I decided to give sentinel a run to see how it went..
Don't tell me I'm learning the class.. You don't know me.. Don't pretend like you have any idea what I have been doing..
I had to tinker significantly to get to the top of dps charts again.. And invest alot more AD to get close to where the class was ore patch.. And it still is a fair way off that point befor the patch
And your advice about the weapon enchantments is wrong.. As per usual.. I was spec in destroyer with a perfect vorpal running almost 40% crit at 140% crit severity. And it wasn't efficient at all... I'm doing more solid dps now with the bronze wood.. Oh and I had a greater lightning too.. And again.. That wasn't as efficient as the bronzewood..
So my advice drop any weapon enchant u have.. Cause it's obviously the wrong one..
Why don't u post a dps chart of your "amazing dps" with the GS of the others in party so everyone can see just how amazing you think you are...
Show me anything you have said that's constructive! You keep saying "GWF is ok" that's pretty much it
This guys a joke
You had to TINKER significantly to get to this build, eventhough you were in a Destroyer spec before. So you went from a Destroyer spec that lost 30% damage after the recent patch to a Destroyer build that now tops dps charts again. Wow, I didn't know there was such a wide spectrum of Destroyer builds. I think it would be enlightening for everyone to show us the transformation. How much AD you spent on what? The points you moved within the tree that gave you such a huge dps jump? After all, someone with your experience should have a lot more to offer. With regards to the Bronzewood, I will not derail the thread even further. You're happy swinging a weapon that applies 10seconds debuff, and another 10seconds of nothing, that's your choice. I will wallow with my imaginary GWF, doing imaginary things, pretending I am doing good dps using ineffective enchants. I guess I was extremely lucky just randomly putting points in feats to come up with this and saved myself a TON of AD and months of Tinkering.
So just so we're all clear, and after your TINKERing, as of today 9/3/2013 do GWF completely suck and are a dead class, or still viable and can still top damage? Because I am sure many people are confused which side of the fence you're on right now.
Pray tell, if it's a build that has been known for such a long time and been used by many pro GWFs, yourself included, before and after the patch, then how come this is the first time I've seen even the slightest mention of it?
Lets sum things up a bit.
1.Gwf class is perfectly capable of doing t2 runs with aboutish 11k GS and contribute to most groups.
2.Cw does better with less gear score party becouse how dungeons are consructed.
3. Cw has better cc and better aoe dam than Gwf and as such people rather take another Cw before a Gwf
4. In average groups a good Gwf will still preforme very well even topping the charts if the Cw isd doing his jobb bunching mobs together.
5. Gf has better aggro control and if specked and equipped right can tank somewhat better then Gwfs.
6.Tr is king of single target dam and is tanking bosses better then Gf or Gwf:s due to evation mechanics.
Problems for gwf in todays NW dungeons runs.
1. You need slightly higher GS to become a valid asset (doeble but not any real reason is should be so)
2. The dungeons are constructed in such a way that groups really dont need a tank(both Gf and Gwf class suffer from this ofc)
3. When the dungeons do contribute more toward tank classes another Cw is often a better solution as they can work together to avoid getting hit with cc and aoe and due to higher aoe dps together with cc control again no tank is needed.
4.The general population will not pick Gwfs for groups becouse of above reasons and therefore Gwfs has a hard time gearing up.
5. In the absolute high end game (lets say 14k gs and up) gwfs can no longer compeate with other classes due to the lack of specializations the Gwfs class has when it comes to dps cc and tanking.
In reality all this meens that Gwf (Gfs to some extent) has a bit harder to get gear and groups then other classes.
If you dont have a guild or friends (in which there seem to be less of an issue) Gwfs is the 6th wheel out of 5 when it comes to making up groups and as such they go LFG without getting groups alot more then other classes.
Now if this above is correct a) can we live with it or b) should something be done about it.
If a move along and have a nice and dandy day if b try to be constructive of how to remedy the problem.
It is my view that the devs will not remake that dungeons in such a way that tanks will be more needed/wanted and that any change has to be adressed to the classes. (i ofc might be wrong in this but i highly daubt it)
If they manage to give the comming classes abilitys that compleatly change how groups are formed today it is a later problem that i can not adress right now so i suggest we leave that part out.
Best
TRs are single target yet they put out more raw damage than an AOE class at present. That was not the case when I had AP per target on Roar.
This times 1000. +1