Just to clear up things. This is what the devs wrote, in the pinned topic, in this section:
Read it again.
a class that excels at AoE DPS a class that excels at AoE DPS a class that excels at AoE DPS
Now, the damage you're talking about comes from single target powers, unless you're saying that you topped the damage chart using WMS, avalanche of steel exc... Pretty sure, as anyone else, you were popping AoS daily when it was up/ good to use, and fighting with WMS+ single target encounters the rest of the time. Also, Avalanche of Steel damage is laughable. It's, indeed, a utility daily. Overall, AoE damage of the GWF is lower than the CW's. What does this means? That they DO NOT Excel at AoE DPS, like the devs said.
If you didn't know about avalanche of steel power before the nerf, then you're not as skilled as you say. It got it's use as a "get out of trouble" power, or to give breath to your party when the adds become too many.
Also, if you go with the class description then sorry, but you got it all wrong. That's the one thing you should NOT consider when talking about GWFs. In fact, the description is:
which, to put it simply, says nothing. And is different from what i quoted above from the devs.
So, we're supposed to EXCEL at AoE damage. Which means, we are supposed to be the main AoE DPSrs. Right now, we are not the main AoE DPSrs. That's why we have no role, that's why GWFs are rarely considered for epic dungeon runs. That's why it must be reworked so that GWFs are the main AoE DPSrs in PvE, and CWs are the main CC class.
First of all, I don't run single target encounters, except IBS, which is in fact AoE when used well as everyone knows. I run with daring shout for defense, because I tank mostly, and Come and Get it (after AoS quite handy). Single target encounters actually lessen our DPS, because with one WMS swing there is more DMG than with these encounters. If you use them, you are just loosing time... Before I used Roar for APs, but now sadly there is no use of it most of the time. And yes, I didn't considered AoS before, because slam was simply top DPS and Aggro daily. Right now AoS does more dmg, so I switched to it. And about its utility, in most of our runs, we run without GF and I step into tanking role and do aggro through raw DPS, so I just can't fly away in the middle of fight for 4 seconds, because meanwhile my team can be dead. So I use slam for dmg and movement reduce, which really helps my teammates to evade mobs with moving and dodging abilities. And it even make bigger threat now, so even better in this role.
If CW is running control and does it properly, he boosts my DPS immensely. This is CW supposed role and it contributes to my supposed role. If he is running AoE, then the CC is becoming quite messy and neither tanks and TR are very happy about it. That is why our DPS suffers a bit and their goes up the way. I have run once with one of these CWs and it wasn't as easy run for whole team as with full-time controller CW. However I was still able to hold aggro and do competitive DPS, if not, the dps CW would simply die quite often because of all the aggro. If were are talking about our SUPPOSED roles, consider also the supposed roles of other classes and not their other viable builds, which are not so common actually (at least not in my guild, because we take CWs for control and not for DPS...).
Yes, I do a lot of tanking in my group so it can seem there is no room for GF other way around. There is just flexibility in these two classes in this way. With more classes and same grouping this flexibility will have to be solved with other classes as well. I am just trying to figure out and find a place in my group, and all of my mates have already accepted my role and appreciate the GWF in the party. Maybe you and all the others should try it as well and more people will appreciate our class. There is no point in complaining and not finding any solution to our situation with what is available to us right now.
This aside, as I have said, there are more important problems. So far in 20 minutes in Malabog castle I experienced 4 unstoppable bugs. That is something, what needs attention promptly. Also silence should not be working on fighters, as they don't need to use any words in most of their attacks (except for shouts...). And I have a suspicion, that silence is messing a lot with unstoppable bug and contributes to it.
Gann, we found the solution, roll a CW and enjoy an easier time with that class..... it should not be that way. my CW does more DPS in than ANY SINGLE GWF iv'e EVER grouped with for total damage in the dungeon, AND i can CC. I refuse to let a GWF in the group as my CW or a TR, why? because they are not needed and slow the group down. my GWF is USELESS and it pisses me off when people stick their head in the sand and try and not listen to it. I have more mobility on my CW more AOE more CC, why in gods name would i EVER bring a GWF? ill sooner run the dungeon short but since there seems to be no end to the CW i can always 3-4 CW + DC the dungeons with ease.
It's impossible for a CW to keep all mobs CCd at all times. Your role is to taunt the adds that the CWs aggro with their AoE CC and attacks while their CC abilities are on cool down. Both classes are responsible for doing the AoE damage. You see, both classes are meant to work together and cover each other's downtime between taunt cool downs and CC cool downs. That leaves the TRs and healers more safe to perform their job. Your dps alone will never keep anyone safe so quit being silly about that.
so what your saying is that as my CW i can safely keep the party alive and CC but as my GWF i have to rely upon a CW that feels sorry for me? Your saying that a GWF role is to just be a taunt stick till the CW (the real class) can find the time to deal with them? why bring the GWF in the first place when you can just bring another CW and not worry about that.
so what your saying is that as my CW i can safely keep the party alive and CC but as my GWF i have to rely upon a CW that feels sorry for me? Your saying that a GWF role is to just be a taunt stick till the CW (the real class) can find the time to deal with them? why bring the GWF in the first place when you can just bring another CW and not worry about that.
I think he's saying, "It's really nice with my bumm upp and head in the sand" ..
Allot of people like it that way, (personally I don't use my Gwf in anything but the simplest tasks (solo Questing Sharandar)
*rairly more than 5x npc's pr mob. and none do any dps that even would kill a Cw, so I don't have to worry about unstoppable bugging out, or CC's leaking through unstoppable*
Bringing the Gwf into a T2 Dungeon these days, is just like slapping ppl's faces with a sloppy herring * They are and will be better off without you.. *just a fact*
How do you figure thats not being viable? the only thing a GWF has is DPS that's it, a CW has DPS (+more targets) AND CC. In a game of specialization someone who is decent at everything is not needed/wanted. Do you not understand this?
GF = TANKS
DC = HEALS
TR = ST DPS
CW = AOE DPS + CC
GWF = ?
GWF= TANK + AoE DPS
I don't know why most of you keep dancing around the word tank. GWFs are NOT off-tanks. They don't just "sorta tank". They aren't Hybrid tank. They aren't the baby brother of a GF in tanking. GWFs geared/specced/played right are 110% full on tank without sacrificing any dps.
Replacing a GWF with another TR will make the run MUCH faster?! This is a joke right? Most dungeons consist of 70% trash clearing 30% boss fights. GWFs will help you go through the trash faster, while the TR will go through the bosses faster. At best it is a wash when you count some trash skipping/tossing.
Replacing a GWF with another CW will make the run much faster?! Hilariously exaggerated. The other night I did 6x MC 2/3 on my GWF and another 6x on my CW. Absolutely no noticeable difference in run time.
However a GWF can replace a dedicated tank spec GF ANY day and actually would make the run faster. The myth that just because GFs have some forced taunts it makes them better tanks, is just that...a Myth. There is only two true form of threat generation in this game and that's through dps and heals. Running a dps GWF with 1500 LifeSteal works great for aggro generation. Should this be the right mechanic for threat generation? No. I think Cryptic opted for the easy/lazy way out. But it is what it is.
Are there things that need some tweaking with GWFs? sure. AP gain needs to be looked at. Adding a couple or so utilities to some of the encounters, Like Battle Fury/Come and get it/Mighty Leap, buffing the Instigator capstone, etc... But some of you guys make it seem that the class needs to get a complete overhaul and that it is unplayable in its current state. That is insane.
I don't know why most of you keep dancing around the word tank. GWFs are NOT off-tanks. They don't just "sorta tank". They aren't Hybrid tank. They aren't the baby brother of a GF in tanking. GWFs geared/specced/played right are 110% full on tank without sacrificing any dps.
Replacing a GWF with another TR will make the run MUCH faster?! This is a joke right? Most dungeons consist of 70% trash clearing 30% boss fights. GWFs will help you go through the trash faster, while the TR will go through the bosses faster. At best it is a wash when you count some trash skipping/tossing.
Replacing a GWF with another CW will make the run much faster?! Hilariously exaggerated. The other night I did 6x MC 2/3 on my GWF and another 6x on my CW. Absolutely no noticeable difference in run time.
However a GWF can replace a dedicated tank spec GF ANY day and actually would make the run faster. The myth that just because GFs have some forced taunts it makes them better tanks, is just that...a Myth. There is only two true form of threat generation in this game and that's through dps and heals. Running a dps GWF with 1500 LifeSteal works great for aggro generation. Should this be the right mechanic for threat generation? No. I think Cryptic opted for the easy/lazy way out. But it is what it is.
Are there things that need some tweaking with GWFs? sure. AP gain needs to be looked at. Adding a couple or so utilities to some of the encounters, Like Battle Fury/Come and get it/Mighty Leap, buffing the Instigator capstone, etc... But some of you guys make it seem that the class needs to get a complete overhaul and that it is unplayable in its current state. That is insane.
Your joking right? The trash is laughable with any decent CW so that only leaves the boss, since you do 1/5 the dps of a TR your useless. If you got a good couple of CW then run 2 CW 2 TR 1 DC.
If you have so so CW then just run 3 cw 1 TR 1 DC, you get a faster run than anything with a GWF
If you just want to AOE blast stuff and dont mind doing the boss not as fast run 4 CW 1 DC.
If you have boss CW then run 3 CW (yes CN been done like this so has every other dungeon)
Copti the class in its current form IS unplayable vs everything else with this content. If people are not begging for them or they are not even a first or second choice guess what, they are unplayable and worthless. if you can stack 2x 3x or even 4x of a class then YES IT NEEDS AN OVERHAUL. What part of this do you not understand? the GWF can sort of (and don't bs me about they are a full tank) replace a not needed class to begin with makes them ..... NOT NEEDED!!!!
You and people like you are the reason the game is failing, instead of saying hey you know its screwed up don't do that, and ADMITTING WE ARE A WEAK CLASS, you simply stick your head in the sand and say ohh we are ok, we are ok... ohh no legs anymore? we are still fine... ohh we have no arms and no legs anymore? we are still ok....
(semi monty python reference just so i don't have some idiot trying to blast me about handicap people).
Do you not understand it copti? you have done nothing but help DESTROY the GWF with your thinking, you should be OUTRAGED that they made you into a bench warmer, instead you say ohh when i have friends they bring me into the game. THEY FEEL BAD FOR YOU or do NOT WANT to complete dungeons in the most efficient manor possible. Every time they screw with the class and make it less than others YOU SHOULD BE OUTRAGED. Since you are not, the only thing i can believe is that you are a troll.
Buffs are needed, just stop asking for the wrong thing. Stop focusing on the damage meters at the end as the end all be all.
Never asked for more dam i just answered previous post that said he topped the dps in his partys(a redicules naive statement if hes been running dungeons with other high end geared classes).
What I said has been said in almost every post by GWF:s ""OUR CLASS DO NOT FILL ANY ROLE IN TODAYS NW IF YOU WANT TO FILL THE 5 SPOT GROUPS WITH BEST OPTIONS"" I hope this message is clear enough for you to understand.
And in reference to your remark bout dam above if they gave us more dam then a tr groups would prefure gwf above tr:s whish would solve absolutly nothing but to put the next class on the non wanted list.
One simple solution would to to make dungeons harder to do if you miss out on a certain class, not in any case impossible but enough hardship to make it easer for all to take all classes with you.
But nm what if nothing happens in high end game gwf is an non grata class when it comes to filling the 5 spotts for a fast effective run.
Your joking right? The trash is laughable with any decent CW so that only leaves the boss, since you do 1/5 the dps of a TR your useless. If you got a good couple of CW then run 2 CW 2 TR 1 DC.
If you have so so CW then just run 3 cw 1 TR 1 DC, you get a faster run than anything with a GWF
If you just want to AOE blast stuff and dont mind doing the boss not as fast run 4 CW 1 DC.
If you have boss CW then run 3 CW (yes CN been done like this so has every other dungeon)
Copti the class in its current form IS unplayable vs everything else with this content. If people are not begging for them or they are not even a first or second choice guess what, they are unplayable and worthless. if you can stack 2x 3x or even 4x of a class then YES IT NEEDS AN OVERHAUL. What part of this do you not understand? the GWF can sort of (and don't bs me about they are a full tank) replace a not needed class to begin with makes them ..... NOT NEEDED!!!!
You and people like you are the reason the game is failing, instead of saying hey you know its screwed up don't do that, and ADMITTING WE ARE A WEAK CLASS, you simply stick your head in the sand and say ohh we are ok, we are ok... ohh no legs anymore? we are still fine... ohh we have no arms and no legs anymore? we are still ok....
(semi monty python reference just so i don't have some idiot trying to blast me about handicap people).
Do you not understand it copti? you have done nothing but help DESTROY the GWF with your thinking, you should be OUTRAGED that they made you into a bench warmer, instead you say ohh when i have friends they bring me into the game. THEY FEEL BAD FOR YOU or do NOT WANT to complete dungeons in the most efficient manor possible. Every time they screw with the class and make it less than others YOU SHOULD BE OUTRAGED. Since you are not, the only thing i can believe is that you are a troll.
LOL. You can use the "..head in the sand.." line all you want, in every post/thread, it still doesn't change the fact that MY experience with the class is different than yours. There are only 3 obvious answers here.
1) You do not know how to play the class, and as a result suffering with your DPS, tanking, survivability, getting groups, being alienated by your friends/guild.
2) You are being melodramatic and exaggerating every facet of the GWF's weaknesses to a level that will not make ANY Dev take you seriously.
3) My experience/perspective of the class is a result of running with extremely unskilled players, who dont know how to play their respective classes, cant dps, cant CC, and cant tank. As such, I don't have a realistic grasp on how awful the class is.
Just so I can make you happy, I will go with #3. Nevermind that I, along with the people I run with, clear and farm any T2 content we want. We can then conclude that the content of the game is very easy, that even a subpar group dragging a GWF and even 2x GWFs can clear it.
But now you're being hysterical, blaming me, and others that share similar perspectives, for the current state of GWFs. WOW, I didnt know I had this much influence over Cryptic. I apologize. Tomorrow, first thing, I will call my buddies over there and have them promptly work on buffing and overhauling the GWF class. Dude, it's not like I am screaming to nerf GWFs. I am not saying we're OP. It's not like I am going to quit playing it if it gets some buffs! I even acknowledged some of the issues that need to be addressed. But there is no way in hell I am going to jump on this bandwagon of the class being completely useless.
But now you're being hysterical, blaming me, and others that share similar perspectives, for the current state of GWFs. WOW, I didnt know I had this much influence over Cryptic. I apologize. Tomorrow, first thing, I will call my buddies over there and have them promptly work on buffing and overhauling the GWF class. Dude, it's not like I am screaming to nerf GWFs. I am not saying we're OP. It's not like I am going to quit playing it if it gets some buffs! I even acknowledged some of the issues that need to be addressed. But there is no way in hell I am going to jump on this bandwagon of the class being completely useless
OMG am starting to think you either are daft in real life or just so stubborn you absolutly refuse to see what other write(extreamly narrow minded is also a valid option).
Nobody said the class is compleatly useless, nobody said you cant do t2 dungeons with GWF:s, and your argument that all that complain about the class "My experience/perspective of the class is a result of running with extremely unskilled players, who dont know how to play their respective classes" is totally clueless and cant play is getting both TIRESEOME and REPETITIVE come up with something new plz.
If you cant understand what all post about the gwf class is about am afraid your a lost case and would do best to refrain from posting about this subjec.
so what your saying is that as my CW i can safely keep the party alive and CC but as my GWF i have to rely upon a CW that feels sorry for me? Your saying that a GWF role is to just be a taunt stick till the CW (the real class) can find the time to deal with them? why bring the GWF in the first place when you can just bring another CW and not worry about that.
No where did I say this. They are dependent on each other and cover one another. Sure, you can bring 2 CWs to cover each other's downtime, but you could also bring 2 GWFs to cover each other's taunt downtime. Same effect. The issue is that most GWFs don't even bother trying to use feats or abilities that taunt and thus you are unneeded.
I don't know how much simpler I can prove my point. It's simple logic. GWFs can do anything a GF can if they actually try. People do like having a tank for MC. I know I prefer having a tank rather than another CW in my groups and I freely take both GFs or GWFs provided they are there to do their job.
You can either play your role as intended or wallow in your sorrows and beg to be a barbarian striker. Fix the bugs, increase your AP generation and make a few adjustments as needed. The class needs no major revamp.
Everyone knows CN is a stupid instance that has derpy mechanics like Draco. I will personally never run the instance again myself because I think the whole knock mechanic is a joke and trivializes the fight. I hate cliff knocking in general and I don't find it fun. This is one of the primary reasons multiple CWs are taken over GWFs. That is a problem with specific dungeons rather than classes themselves.
And for the record I don't consider knocking as real CC, so multiple CWs aren't brought or needed for "CC", rather its for knocking. QQ about this stupidity rather than the CW class stealing your role.
No where did I say this. They are dependent on each other and cover one another. Sure, you can bring 2 CWs to cover each other's downtime, but you could also bring 2 GWFs to cover each other's taunt downtime. Same effect. The issue is that most GWFs don't even bother trying to use feats or abilities that taunt and thus you are unneeded.
I don't know how much simpler I can prove my point. It's simple logic. GWFs can do anything a GF can if they actually try. People do like having a tank for MC. I know I prefer having a tank rather than another CW in my groups and I freely take both GFs or GWFs provided they are there to do their job.
You can either play your role as intended or wallow in your sorrows and beg to be a barbarian striker. Fix the bugs, increase your AP generation and make a few adjustments as needed. The class needs no major revamp.
Everyone knows CN is a stupid instance that has derpy mechanics like Draco. I will personally never run the instance again myself because I think the whole knock mechanic is a joke and trivializes the fight. I hate cliff knocking in general and I don't find it fun. This is one of the primary reasons multiple CWs are taken over GWFs. That is a problem with specific dungeons rather than classes themselves.
And for the record I don't consider knocking as real CC, so multiple CWs aren't brought or needed for "CC", rather its for knocking. QQ about this stupidity rather than the CW class stealing your role.
Ok lets go to a different one say spider
GWF has to chase the adds, CW goes nope pop goes the add.... 3 CW pop goes everything so boss NEVER heals
how about kar?
ooo adds.... naa up in the air .... ohh 2 -3 cw yeah all up in the air dragon dead move on...
GWF has to chase the adds, CW goes nope pop goes the add.... 3 CW pop goes everything so boss NEVER heals
how about kar?
ooo adds.... naa up in the air .... ohh 2 -3 cw yeah all up in the air dragon dead move on...
want me to continue?
Yea how about this...
Spider - GWF runs ahead and get aggro of a train of adds then would make a CW's toss even more meaningful.
Spider queen? Surround the queen so she doesnt teleport, everyone goes single target on the queen. Just let me the GWF spam AoE and get all the aggro of the swordmasters/spider. Dont worry I wont go down. Mr. CW if you would be so kind and just occasionally use Steal Time, it would be greatly appreciated. Queen is dead. No Chasing, no popping, no glitching, no punting over invisible walls, and most importantly the queen dies in just about the same amount of time, if not faster.
Karrundax?
umm lets be honest. The reason people bring CWs to this dungeon is because they can exploit the terrain and solo the first couple of bosses.
The dragon fight? Same as above. Everyone goes single target and GWF grabbing adds right underneath the dragon to maintain 45% debuff on the dragon and take care of all the adds underneath. Not ONE Singularity is needed. Not ONE CW is even needed, since I have done this fight many times with 2 and 3 GWFs.
Different strategies, but just as effective. Most of you complaining about the class use a tunnel vision approach to every dungeon and every fight, as if there is only ONE optimal way of doing anything. And even if there IS a best or most efficient way of doing something, that doesn't mean that any other way is COMPLETELY inferior or that it would take twice as much time and effort to accomplish.
OMG am starting to think you either are daft in real life or just so stubborn you absolutly refuse to see what other write(extreamly narrow minded is also a valid option).
Nobody said the class is compleatly useless, nobody said you cant do t2 dungeons with GWF:s...
REALLY? Ok I know for sure I am stubborn. Daft? hmm questionable. But you seem to be the expert as far as reading comprehension goes. Here is just a sample, in case you skipped through the entire thread just to put in your 2cents.
It really is easy to tell who has a CW main, I know you are enjoying your TOP DPS and TOP Utility that your class brings at the moment, but guess what, that makes other classes USELESS.
my GWF is USELESS and it pisses me off when people stick their head in the sand and try and not listen to it....
Your joking right? The trash is laughable with any decent CW so that only leaves the boss, since you do 1/5 the dps of a TR you're useless.
Here...let me quote why GWF are dead...
...I refuse to let a GWF in the group as my CW or a TR, why? because they are not needed and slow the group down....
...personally I don't use my Gwf in anything but the simplest tasks (solo Questing Sharandar)
No...they killed any viable DPS build.
Bringing the Gwf into a T2 Dungeon these days, is just like slapping ppl's faces with a sloppy herring
They are and will be better off without you.. *just a fact*
Bringing the Gwf into a T2 Dungeon these days, is just like slapping ppl's faces with a sloppy herring
...I refuse to let a GWF in the group as my CW or a TR, why? because they are not needed and slow the group down....
etc etc all these comments isent about the gwf being useless eq if you rather go 4 then have a 5th gwf in group. It does not say that in a group of friends you cant do any t2 dungeon and have a blast doing it. If you have a group with a gwf and play with friends am sure you can learn to work have to maximice the gwfs role so it appears to be dam right needed even.
Now back to what you simply not will understand, i wil try to put it for you so you can understand one last time.
If you dont have a guild that is plentifull with players that will grant you a place in a group, if you dont have some friends to play with on a regular basis you have to LFG with all others and compeate for a place in groups.
Now as the case is you need to be geared up to you teeth to compeate with others while cws and trs can be 9k GS .
Gearing up for 13k+ will cost you alot of time or money while gearing up for 9k will cost about nothing.
As it stands with dungeons being what they are the playerbase (rightly so) wants the easest way to claer them, whish is no wounder as you do em over and over again.
Now lets see what the player base wants when they form a group 2-3 cws 1 dc 1 tr and maby one tank in some dungeons.
As you can handle all adds with 2-3 cws and a tr can handle boss better then any gwf/gf (yea some gf do the job alright) where comes the gwfs role in ???
WHAT A GWF BRING TO THE TABLE IN THE DUNGEONS OF TODAYS NW OTHERS CAN DO BETTER WITH LESS GEAR= ITS DAM HARD FOR GWFS TO GET GROUPS...
That is was this is about is it so hard to figure out or do you feel the need to post another answer about how we all should learn to play the class as usal.
I tried but i daubt you will grasp it still ........
GWF has to chase the adds, CW goes nope pop goes the add.... 3 CW pop goes everything so boss NEVER heals
how about kar?
ooo adds.... naa up in the air .... ohh 2 -3 cw yeah all up in the air dragon dead move on...
want me to continue?
Again blame the stupid dungeon mechanics and the bad habits that everyone got into. I don't even use shield on my CW and most good ones that I know no longer do either. Most were using shield pops as a quick way to generate AP so that they could spam singularity. Shield pop has been nerfed to generate very little AP and shield now has a long cooldown so you won't be seeing used as much anymore.
None of this has anything to do with AoE dps either so this is yet another point as to why an increase in GWF damage won't make any difference.
etc etc all these comments isent about the gwf being useless eq if you rather go 4 then have a 5th gwf in group. It does not say that in a group of friends you cant do any t2 dungeon and have a blast doing it. If you have a group with a gwf and play with friends am sure you can learn to work have to maximice the gwfs role so it appears to be dam right needed even.
Now back to what you simply not will understand, i wil try to put it for you so you can understand one last time.
If you dont have a guild that is plentifull with players that will grant you a place in a group, if you dont have some friends to play with on a regular basis you have to LFG with all others and compeate for a place in groups.
Now as the case is you need to be geared up to you teeth to compeate with others while cws and trs can be 9k GS .
Gearing up for 13k+ will cost you alot of time or money while gearing up for 9k will cost about nothing.
As it stands with dungeons being what they are the playerbase (rightly so) wants the easest way to claer them, whish is no wounder as you do em over and over again.
Now lets see what the player base wants when they form a group 2-3 cws 1 dc 1 tr and maby one tank in some dungeons.
As you can handle all adds with 2-3 cws and a tr can handle boss better then any gwf/gf (yea some gf do the job alright) where comes the gwfs role in ???
WHAT A GWF BRING TO THE TABLE IN THE DUNGEONS OF TODAYS NW OTHERS CAN DO BETTER WITH LESS GEAR= ITS DAM HARD FOR GWFS TO GET GROUPS...
That is was this is about is it so hard to figure out or do you feel the need to post another answer about how we all should learn to play the class as usal.
I tried but i daubt you will grasp it still ........
Be serious dude, no one is taking 9k TRs or CWs to harder T2s either. Everyone has expectations about what GS people need to have when they run in pugs. You can tank just fine without the absolute best gear just like a CW can use CC abilities without it. Just admit that you are still harping on your AoE dps and still being bullheaded that this is the only thing that makes you viable. The fact that you still think this means that you will never be an asset to a group.
same gear gs cw/gwf, CW do more(if not same) has control skills,debuffs that boost party's dmg,bumps stuff etc..
GWF has?he can tank adds?no,rather have extra CW.
he can stay on boss tank?why tr can do it.
In MC/CN/FH/PK/Spell/Karru extra cw or gwf???answer with arguments and see.
Most funny thing is in CN pt when other dude says i got a 13.5k GWF but is better to bring my 11k GS CW that says it all.
but im pretty sure some ppl gonna say that the gwf would be so much more usefull ok.
@ copti :
Mb for spider i can agree..(tho 2nd CW would be same if not faster.)
For karrundax is pointless what you say,2nd CW faster for sure,well more like an extra rogue would be better coz if high gs 1 cw no problem with adds while staying on boss as well.
Ok first to copti on spider
instead of dragging along a GWF just bring 3x CW the mobs NEVER touch the ground, or are dead because the aoe damage and they do NOT have to worry about saving the GWF (you say you have a CW then you should know the entire run is a sprint fest with 3x CW)
CC+RANGE+AOE > LESS AOE + TANKING
on boss why even bother with that? she has time to heal since you as a GWF ARE MELEE and cant hit the guys sitting outside of your range, a CW can just toss them aside or MANY other things to kill them the INSTANT they start healing her.
Karr, without expoiting even just bring all mobs into the air and the fights are easy, the few mobs you cant make airborn you can nuke down from a DISTANCE. Hell, lets see you take the ENTIRE Kobold area even 2x GWF .... guess what you die, guess what 2 CW do? hell even 1 Good AOE specced CW can destroy it... again
CC+RANGE+AOE> LESS AOE + TANKING
now for kidbs
I'm not talking about using shield, its not needed, it used to be helpful but still not needed. Just like you and copti i am being stubborn the MAJORITY of the GWF (as by the posts ive read and what i have seen in game) have all stated what is needed for the GWF. If they are not the UNDISPUTED kings of AOE then they are useless. PERIOD. if you can CC + RANGE + AOE better than a GWF, why bother tanking? Honestly if you don't see a problem with the fact that CW can do it all then you are a CW fanboy.
If you for some reason think that the GWF should not be the AOE kings then what should they be? the NOT NEEDED TANKS? the NOT NEEDED SUB PAR DPS? a ranged class should never do the DPS of a melee for any reason. There is a reason that all other successful games have made the range less damage than melee, RANGE IS EASIER AND SAFER, and if the range has CC then they should be doing ALOT LESS DAMAGE.
Ok first to copti on spider
instead of dragging along a GWF just bring 3x CW the mobs NEVER touch the ground, or are dead because the aoe damage and they do NOT have to worry about saving the GWF (you say you have a CW then you should know the entire run is a sprint fest with 3x CW)
CC+RANGE+AOE > LESS AOE + TANKING
on boss why even bother with that? she has time to heal since you as a GWF ARE MELEE and cant hit the guys sitting outside of your range, a CW can just toss them aside or MANY other things to kill them the INSTANT they start healing her.
Karr, without expoiting even just bring all mobs into the air and the fights are easy, the few mobs you cant make airborn you can nuke down from a DISTANCE. Hell, lets see you take the ENTIRE Kobold area even 2x GWF .... guess what you die, guess what 2 CW do? hell even 1 Good AOE specced CW can destroy it... again
CC+RANGE+AOE> LESS AOE + TANKING
now for kidbs
I'm not talking about using shield, its not needed, it used to be helpful but still not needed. Just like you and copti i am being stubborn the MAJORITY of the GWF (as by the posts ive read and what i have seen in game) have all stated what is needed for the GWF. If they are not the UNDISPUTED kings of AOE then they are useless. PERIOD. if you can CC + RANGE + AOE better than a GWF, why bother tanking? Honestly if you don't see a problem with the fact that CW can do it all then you are a CW fanboy.
If you for some reason think that the GWF should not be the AOE kings then what should they be? the NOT NEEDED TANKS? the NOT NEEDED SUB PAR DPS? a ranged class should never do the DPS of a melee for any reason. There is a reason that all other successful games have made the range less damage than melee, RANGE IS EASIER AND SAFER, and if the range has CC then they should be doing ALOT LESS DAMAGE.
For the last time, dungeons need to change not the class. The problem is that for most dungeons tanks are not needed. This is a problem with dungeons in this game. MC is a decent start because tanks indeed make the run go smoother. Thus GWFs who actually try to hold threat are a great asset. For dungeons where tanks are not needed... well GFs are in the same boat as you. So your strongest argument is to make tanks more needed. You are a tank in this game and tanks in this game hold threat while dpsing.
As for the ranged dps vs melee dps argument it's a silly one that holds no bearing on whether you will be brought to a dungeon or not. But to respond anyway... Games where ranged dps have done more dps than melee during their runnings: WoW, Warhammer, SWToR, Rift, Secret World just to name a few.
I'm done arguing. Your crusade that is focusing solely on damage will change nothing for your class and will still keep you sitting on the sidelines.
For the last time, dungeons need to change not the class. The problem is that for most dungeons tanks are not needed. This is a problem with dungeons in this game. MC is a decent start because tanks indeed make the run go smoother. Thus GWFs who actually try to hold threat are a great asset. For dungeons where tanks are not needed... well GFs are in the same boat as you. So your strongest argument is to make tanks more needed. You are a tank in this game and tanks in this game hold threat while dpsing.
As for the ranged dps vs melee dps argument it's a silly one that holds no bearing on whether you will be brought to a dungeon or not. But to respond anyway... Games where ranged dps have done more dps than melee during their runnings: WoW, Warhammer, SWToR, Rift, Secret World just to name a few.
I'm done arguing. Your crusade that is focusing solely on damage will change nothing for your class and will still keep you sitting on the sidelines.
I wholeheartedly agree with kidbs on this matter. The design of the dungeons is the true issue at hand. It's so obvious if we compare spider/spellplague/CN to lets say MC. Every time I run MC I'm always #1 on the dmg done and last time I was ahead by around 2 mill dmg. The other dungeons that I mentioned are heavily dominated by CW's simply because of how those dungeons are designed. I am talking about the ability to throw sings and push mobs down bridges and cliffs. That's what it's all about.
I hope that the devs know about this problem and that they are trying to change their dungeon-design philosophies with the addition of MC. But one decent dungeon isn't enough.
Be serious dude, no one is taking 9k TRs or CWs to harder T2s either. Everyone has expectations about what GS people need to have when they run in pugs. You can tank just fine without the absolute best gear just like a CW can use CC abilities without it. Just admit that you are still harping on your AoE dps and still being bullheaded that this is the only thing that makes you viable. The fact that you still think this means that you will never be an asset to a group.
AGAIN i never said we should have more dam are you hard of reading you also jesus christ when will you "stick the hand in the sand" fanboys stop posting for just the sake of argue agains whatever is said about the lack of a real role the gwfs has today.
And yes groups rather takes a 9-10k cw before a 13k gwf in todays t2 becouse they add more to the "fast runs" the majority are after.
2nd I never stated i have trubble getting groups as i have a guild that support me so once again you jump in conclutions that are plainly wrong.
I do however know what other classes can do and have run alot of t2 dungeons with and without a gwf and if you dont realize that gwf dont add to a group in the wast majority of the dungeons in this game compared to other classes you are truly cluless.
I even said giving a dps boost that put us in par with tr would serve nothing and only putt another class in our role.
My suggestion if you can read was to f.ex. to make the dungeons harder to go though if you skipp classes.
If you dont bother to read what is written dont bother to comment it either as its just pointless and a waste of space.
I still come in first place in dmg and kills on pretty much everything i do. I'm not even very well geared since i put my GWF on break after the Sentinel craze. If i can still manage to top these lists with less then 10k GS competing with 13k CW's and TR's, the really good geared GWF should still do good. I think alot of the guys complaining were really dependant on Slam for their dmg. My build isn't.
I still come in first place in dmg and kills on pretty much everything i do. I'm not even very well geared since i put my GWF on break after the Sentinel craze. If i can still manage to top these lists with less then 10k GS competing with 13k CW's and TR's, the really good geared GWF should still do good. I think alot of the guys complaining were really dependant on Slam for their dmg. My build isn't.
This i take as a challange if you play on beholder server i will put you into a group with 2 cws 1 tr and one dc in a t2 dungeon of your shoise and if you come even close to 2/3 of the damage from either cw:s (whos is between 13-14GS) i will personally give you 1 mill ad. On the other hand if you fail you will give each other member of the party 100.000 ad as a fine for taking up our time with nonsence.
Tbh your statement only proves that you are utterly clueless about high end gaming and what cw:s are capeble of doing compared to gwfs.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I still come in first place in dmg and kills on pretty much everything i do. I'm not even very well geared since i put my GWF on break after the Sentinel craze. If i can still manage to top these lists with less then 10k GS competing with 13k CW's and TR's, the really good geared GWF should still do good. I think alot of the guys complaining were really dependant on Slam for their dmg. My build isn't.
I call shinanigans on you for making this claim, Give screen shots of dmage meters and of each members gear or it did not happen. Even in MC where GWF's have the easiest time dealing good damage An equally geared CW can compare to any GWF
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited September 2013
Nowadays CW will put dps a GWF by around 20-30% if players have similar skill and gear
I have a GWF where I can easily top 15k in my gear score.. I have run as much epics as anyone....including alot of MC... I run perfect weapon/armor enchants... I know what I'm doing... The active members in my guild are very good players and yes a CW will nowadays almost always top dps charts... Anyone who says there GWF always tops the charts is either running epics with less geared/skilled CWs or lying.. I use to top all dps charts a month ago.. And this has changed alot recently..
I have respec close to 20 times now trying to maximise a dps build.. And I believe I have close to the best option ATM.. And still a simlar gear/slightly lower geared and skilled CW will top me.. If I run a pug however wil ppl not as sure as to what to do I will top the chart.
Anyone that says a GWF can build as pure tank without sacralising dps.. As I have seen in this thread also doesn't know what they are talking about... Yes a GWF can be a decent tank.. But drops huge amounts of dps doing so..that's how it works..
The problem is that threat generation is very low, losing more dps to tank loses threat as well... If you spec all dps then you lose alot of tanking ability..
But right now the main issue is the AP generation which has nerfed the class more than anything..
Other than that the class is still a mess of dps/threat/survivability.... All don't line up in any effective way
But right now the main issue is the AP generation which has nerfed the class more than anything..
Other than that the class is still a mess of dps/threat/survivability.... All don't line up in any effective way
Spoken by somebody that knows what he is talking about(I have respec close to 20 times now trying to maximise a dps build-talk about RESPECT).
Those that have a good time playing gwf:s with friends and in guilds and feel that they are perfectly happy with their role -i am happy for ya ( i myself pretty much fall into that catagory).
Those that just trolls for the sake of trolling refusing to see that why the gwfs struggles to get groups for t2 - get a reality check.
FYI i dont really care how they solve this issue with gwfs role in nw 5 groups dungeons only that the issue is acknowlege so something can be done about it.
More debuffing, slowing mobs, faster ap gain or whatever is some suggestions and am fine with whatever solotions that places the gwf back on the map of wanted classes again.
Just give the GWF "PARTY buff" like +20% damage, 20% +ap generation or +refresh all encounter cooldown or whatever party buff that is needed in the dungeon and not the slow enemies slam, LOL. problem of gwf solved.
Just give the GWF "PARTY buff" like +20% damage, 20% +ap generation or +refresh all encounter cooldown or whatever party buff that is needed in the dungeon and not the slow enemies slam, LOL. problem of gwf solved.
It's impossible for a CW to keep all mobs CCd at all times. Your role is to taunt the adds that the CWs aggro with their AoE CC and attacks while their CC abilities are on cool down. Both classes are responsible for doing the AoE damage. You see, both classes are meant to work together and cover each other's downtime between taunt cool downs and CC cool downs. That leaves the TRs and healers more safe to perform their job. Your dps alone will never keep anyone safe so quit being silly about that.
GWFs don't have a taunt kidbs. As others have already stated, GWF tank stuff primarily by damage agro. I hear what you are saying about the tanking utility but, in reality, it just doesn't work at the moment. In order to be tanky enough, you sacrifice damage stats, which kills your threat. In order to do enough threat, you sacrifice survivability. It's nigh-on impossible to find a happy medium with a GWF. As a GWF you are either really survivable with low damage (outside of really high end enchants) or you do some damage but get poleaxed if a group turns on you. Unstoppable won't save you on it's own in it's current form.
CWs don't have to make those sacrifices in order to damage or control. As a CW, the same stats that make me do better damage, allow me to control better. As such, CWs do both well (and better than a GWF), which is why groups with 3 CWs are becoming more and more common. Personally, I have no problem with CWs doing high damage, provided they are forced to sacrifice their control in order to do it. In doing so, CWs are forced to make the same hard choices GWF make when gearing their characters. The same also goes for the GF. If they want to do damage, their survivability should take a big hit.
Comments
First of all, I don't run single target encounters, except IBS, which is in fact AoE when used well as everyone knows. I run with daring shout for defense, because I tank mostly, and Come and Get it (after AoS quite handy). Single target encounters actually lessen our DPS, because with one WMS swing there is more DMG than with these encounters. If you use them, you are just loosing time... Before I used Roar for APs, but now sadly there is no use of it most of the time. And yes, I didn't considered AoS before, because slam was simply top DPS and Aggro daily. Right now AoS does more dmg, so I switched to it. And about its utility, in most of our runs, we run without GF and I step into tanking role and do aggro through raw DPS, so I just can't fly away in the middle of fight for 4 seconds, because meanwhile my team can be dead. So I use slam for dmg and movement reduce, which really helps my teammates to evade mobs with moving and dodging abilities. And it even make bigger threat now, so even better in this role.
If CW is running control and does it properly, he boosts my DPS immensely. This is CW supposed role and it contributes to my supposed role. If he is running AoE, then the CC is becoming quite messy and neither tanks and TR are very happy about it. That is why our DPS suffers a bit and their goes up the way. I have run once with one of these CWs and it wasn't as easy run for whole team as with full-time controller CW. However I was still able to hold aggro and do competitive DPS, if not, the dps CW would simply die quite often because of all the aggro. If were are talking about our SUPPOSED roles, consider also the supposed roles of other classes and not their other viable builds, which are not so common actually (at least not in my guild, because we take CWs for control and not for DPS...).
Yes, I do a lot of tanking in my group so it can seem there is no room for GF other way around. There is just flexibility in these two classes in this way. With more classes and same grouping this flexibility will have to be solved with other classes as well. I am just trying to figure out and find a place in my group, and all of my mates have already accepted my role and appreciate the GWF in the party. Maybe you and all the others should try it as well and more people will appreciate our class. There is no point in complaining and not finding any solution to our situation with what is available to us right now.
This aside, as I have said, there are more important problems. So far in 20 minutes in Malabog castle I experienced 4 unstoppable bugs. That is something, what needs attention promptly. Also silence should not be working on fighters, as they don't need to use any words in most of their attacks (except for shouts...). And I have a suspicion, that silence is messing a lot with unstoppable bug and contributes to it.
so what your saying is that as my CW i can safely keep the party alive and CC but as my GWF i have to rely upon a CW that feels sorry for me? Your saying that a GWF role is to just be a taunt stick till the CW (the real class) can find the time to deal with them? why bring the GWF in the first place when you can just bring another CW and not worry about that.
I think he's saying, "It's really nice with my bumm upp and head in the sand" ..
Allot of people like it that way, (personally I don't use my Gwf in anything but the simplest tasks (solo Questing Sharandar)
*rairly more than 5x npc's pr mob. and none do any dps that even would kill a Cw, so I don't have to worry about unstoppable bugging out, or CC's leaking through unstoppable*
Bringing the Gwf into a T2 Dungeon these days, is just like slapping ppl's faces with a sloppy herring *
They are and will be better off without you.. *just a fact*
GWF= TANK + AoE DPS
I don't know why most of you keep dancing around the word tank. GWFs are NOT off-tanks. They don't just "sorta tank". They aren't Hybrid tank. They aren't the baby brother of a GF in tanking. GWFs geared/specced/played right are 110% full on tank without sacrificing any dps.
Replacing a GWF with another TR will make the run MUCH faster?! This is a joke right? Most dungeons consist of 70% trash clearing 30% boss fights. GWFs will help you go through the trash faster, while the TR will go through the bosses faster. At best it is a wash when you count some trash skipping/tossing.
Replacing a GWF with another CW will make the run much faster?! Hilariously exaggerated. The other night I did 6x MC 2/3 on my GWF and another 6x on my CW. Absolutely no noticeable difference in run time.
However a GWF can replace a dedicated tank spec GF ANY day and actually would make the run faster. The myth that just because GFs have some forced taunts it makes them better tanks, is just that...a Myth. There is only two true form of threat generation in this game and that's through dps and heals. Running a dps GWF with 1500 LifeSteal works great for aggro generation. Should this be the right mechanic for threat generation? No. I think Cryptic opted for the easy/lazy way out. But it is what it is.
Are there things that need some tweaking with GWFs? sure. AP gain needs to be looked at. Adding a couple or so utilities to some of the encounters, Like Battle Fury/Come and get it/Mighty Leap, buffing the Instigator capstone, etc... But some of you guys make it seem that the class needs to get a complete overhaul and that it is unplayable in its current state. That is insane.
Your joking right? The trash is laughable with any decent CW so that only leaves the boss, since you do 1/5 the dps of a TR your useless. If you got a good couple of CW then run 2 CW 2 TR 1 DC.
If you have so so CW then just run 3 cw 1 TR 1 DC, you get a faster run than anything with a GWF
If you just want to AOE blast stuff and dont mind doing the boss not as fast run 4 CW 1 DC.
If you have boss CW then run 3 CW (yes CN been done like this so has every other dungeon)
Copti the class in its current form IS unplayable vs everything else with this content. If people are not begging for them or they are not even a first or second choice guess what, they are unplayable and worthless. if you can stack 2x 3x or even 4x of a class then YES IT NEEDS AN OVERHAUL. What part of this do you not understand? the GWF can sort of (and don't bs me about they are a full tank) replace a not needed class to begin with makes them ..... NOT NEEDED!!!!
You and people like you are the reason the game is failing, instead of saying hey you know its screwed up don't do that, and ADMITTING WE ARE A WEAK CLASS, you simply stick your head in the sand and say ohh we are ok, we are ok... ohh no legs anymore? we are still fine... ohh we have no arms and no legs anymore? we are still ok....
(semi monty python reference just so i don't have some idiot trying to blast me about handicap people).
Do you not understand it copti? you have done nothing but help DESTROY the GWF with your thinking, you should be OUTRAGED that they made you into a bench warmer, instead you say ohh when i have friends they bring me into the game. THEY FEEL BAD FOR YOU or do NOT WANT to complete dungeons in the most efficient manor possible. Every time they screw with the class and make it less than others YOU SHOULD BE OUTRAGED. Since you are not, the only thing i can believe is that you are a troll.
What I said has been said in almost every post by GWF:s ""OUR CLASS DO NOT FILL ANY ROLE IN TODAYS NW IF YOU WANT TO FILL THE 5 SPOT GROUPS WITH BEST OPTIONS"" I hope this message is clear enough for you to understand.
And in reference to your remark bout dam above if they gave us more dam then a tr groups would prefure gwf above tr:s whish would solve absolutly nothing but to put the next class on the non wanted list.
One simple solution would to to make dungeons harder to do if you miss out on a certain class, not in any case impossible but enough hardship to make it easer for all to take all classes with you.
But nm what if nothing happens in high end game gwf is an non grata class when it comes to filling the 5 spotts for a fast effective run.
LOL. You can use the "..head in the sand.." line all you want, in every post/thread, it still doesn't change the fact that MY experience with the class is different than yours. There are only 3 obvious answers here.
1) You do not know how to play the class, and as a result suffering with your DPS, tanking, survivability, getting groups, being alienated by your friends/guild.
2) You are being melodramatic and exaggerating every facet of the GWF's weaknesses to a level that will not make ANY Dev take you seriously.
3) My experience/perspective of the class is a result of running with extremely unskilled players, who dont know how to play their respective classes, cant dps, cant CC, and cant tank. As such, I don't have a realistic grasp on how awful the class is.
Just so I can make you happy, I will go with #3. Nevermind that I, along with the people I run with, clear and farm any T2 content we want. We can then conclude that the content of the game is very easy, that even a subpar group dragging a GWF and even 2x GWFs can clear it.
But now you're being hysterical, blaming me, and others that share similar perspectives, for the current state of GWFs. WOW, I didnt know I had this much influence over Cryptic. I apologize. Tomorrow, first thing, I will call my buddies over there and have them promptly work on buffing and overhauling the GWF class. Dude, it's not like I am screaming to nerf GWFs. I am not saying we're OP. It's not like I am going to quit playing it if it gets some buffs! I even acknowledged some of the issues that need to be addressed. But there is no way in hell I am going to jump on this bandwagon of the class being completely useless.
OMG am starting to think you either are daft in real life or just so stubborn you absolutly refuse to see what other write(extreamly narrow minded is also a valid option).
Nobody said the class is compleatly useless, nobody said you cant do t2 dungeons with GWF:s, and your argument that all that complain about the class "My experience/perspective of the class is a result of running with extremely unskilled players, who dont know how to play their respective classes" is totally clueless and cant play is getting both TIRESEOME and REPETITIVE come up with something new plz.
If you cant understand what all post about the gwf class is about am afraid your a lost case and would do best to refrain from posting about this subjec.
No where did I say this. They are dependent on each other and cover one another. Sure, you can bring 2 CWs to cover each other's downtime, but you could also bring 2 GWFs to cover each other's taunt downtime. Same effect. The issue is that most GWFs don't even bother trying to use feats or abilities that taunt and thus you are unneeded.
I don't know how much simpler I can prove my point. It's simple logic. GWFs can do anything a GF can if they actually try. People do like having a tank for MC. I know I prefer having a tank rather than another CW in my groups and I freely take both GFs or GWFs provided they are there to do their job.
You can either play your role as intended or wallow in your sorrows and beg to be a barbarian striker. Fix the bugs, increase your AP generation and make a few adjustments as needed. The class needs no major revamp.
Everyone knows CN is a stupid instance that has derpy mechanics like Draco. I will personally never run the instance again myself because I think the whole knock mechanic is a joke and trivializes the fight. I hate cliff knocking in general and I don't find it fun. This is one of the primary reasons multiple CWs are taken over GWFs. That is a problem with specific dungeons rather than classes themselves.
And for the record I don't consider knocking as real CC, so multiple CWs aren't brought or needed for "CC", rather its for knocking. QQ about this stupidity rather than the CW class stealing your role.
GWF just needs a couple tweaks to get back in line. Giving back AP per target on Roar would go a long way.
Ok lets go to a different one say spider
GWF has to chase the adds, CW goes nope pop goes the add.... 3 CW pop goes everything so boss NEVER heals
how about kar?
ooo adds.... naa up in the air .... ohh 2 -3 cw yeah all up in the air dragon dead move on...
want me to continue?
*nod
Not much to add....
Yea how about this...
Spider - GWF runs ahead and get aggro of a train of adds then would make a CW's toss even more meaningful.
Spider queen? Surround the queen so she doesnt teleport, everyone goes single target on the queen. Just let me the GWF spam AoE and get all the aggro of the swordmasters/spider. Dont worry I wont go down. Mr. CW if you would be so kind and just occasionally use Steal Time, it would be greatly appreciated. Queen is dead. No Chasing, no popping, no glitching, no punting over invisible walls, and most importantly the queen dies in just about the same amount of time, if not faster.
Karrundax?
umm lets be honest. The reason people bring CWs to this dungeon is because they can exploit the terrain and solo the first couple of bosses.
The dragon fight? Same as above. Everyone goes single target and GWF grabbing adds right underneath the dragon to maintain 45% debuff on the dragon and take care of all the adds underneath. Not ONE Singularity is needed. Not ONE CW is even needed, since I have done this fight many times with 2 and 3 GWFs.
Different strategies, but just as effective. Most of you complaining about the class use a tunnel vision approach to every dungeon and every fight, as if there is only ONE optimal way of doing anything. And even if there IS a best or most efficient way of doing something, that doesn't mean that any other way is COMPLETELY inferior or that it would take twice as much time and effort to accomplish.
REALLY? Ok I know for sure I am stubborn. Daft? hmm questionable. But you seem to be the expert as far as reading comprehension goes. Here is just a sample, in case you skipped through the entire thread just to put in your 2cents.
oh and the title of the thread...
...yea no one is saying they are useless. LOL
etc etc all these comments isent about the gwf being useless eq if you rather go 4 then have a 5th gwf in group. It does not say that in a group of friends you cant do any t2 dungeon and have a blast doing it. If you have a group with a gwf and play with friends am sure you can learn to work have to maximice the gwfs role so it appears to be dam right needed even.
Now back to what you simply not will understand, i wil try to put it for you so you can understand one last time.
If you dont have a guild that is plentifull with players that will grant you a place in a group, if you dont have some friends to play with on a regular basis you have to LFG with all others and compeate for a place in groups.
Now as the case is you need to be geared up to you teeth to compeate with others while cws and trs can be 9k GS .
Gearing up for 13k+ will cost you alot of time or money while gearing up for 9k will cost about nothing.
As it stands with dungeons being what they are the playerbase (rightly so) wants the easest way to claer them, whish is no wounder as you do em over and over again.
Now lets see what the player base wants when they form a group 2-3 cws 1 dc 1 tr and maby one tank in some dungeons.
As you can handle all adds with 2-3 cws and a tr can handle boss better then any gwf/gf (yea some gf do the job alright) where comes the gwfs role in ???
WHAT A GWF BRING TO THE TABLE IN THE DUNGEONS OF TODAYS NW OTHERS CAN DO BETTER WITH LESS GEAR= ITS DAM HARD FOR GWFS TO GET GROUPS...
That is was this is about is it so hard to figure out or do you feel the need to post another answer about how we all should learn to play the class as usal.
I tried but i daubt you will grasp it still ........
Again blame the stupid dungeon mechanics and the bad habits that everyone got into. I don't even use shield on my CW and most good ones that I know no longer do either. Most were using shield pops as a quick way to generate AP so that they could spam singularity. Shield pop has been nerfed to generate very little AP and shield now has a long cooldown so you won't be seeing used as much anymore.
None of this has anything to do with AoE dps either so this is yet another point as to why an increase in GWF damage won't make any difference.
Be serious dude, no one is taking 9k TRs or CWs to harder T2s either. Everyone has expectations about what GS people need to have when they run in pugs. You can tank just fine without the absolute best gear just like a CW can use CC abilities without it. Just admit that you are still harping on your AoE dps and still being bullheaded that this is the only thing that makes you viable. The fact that you still think this means that you will never be an asset to a group.
GWF has?he can tank adds?no,rather have extra CW.
he can stay on boss tank?why tr can do it.
In MC/CN/FH/PK/Spell/Karru extra cw or gwf???answer with arguments and see.
Most funny thing is in CN pt when other dude says i got a 13.5k GWF but is better to bring my 11k GS CW that says it all.
but im pretty sure some ppl gonna say that the gwf would be so much more usefull ok.
@ copti :
Mb for spider i can agree..(tho 2nd CW would be same if not faster.)
For karrundax is pointless what you say,2nd CW faster for sure,well more like an extra rogue would be better coz if high gs 1 cw no problem with adds while staying on boss as well.
So what about rest of raids. CN/MC/PK/FH....?
instead of dragging along a GWF just bring 3x CW the mobs NEVER touch the ground, or are dead because the aoe damage and they do NOT have to worry about saving the GWF (you say you have a CW then you should know the entire run is a sprint fest with 3x CW)
CC+RANGE+AOE > LESS AOE + TANKING
on boss why even bother with that? she has time to heal since you as a GWF ARE MELEE and cant hit the guys sitting outside of your range, a CW can just toss them aside or MANY other things to kill them the INSTANT they start healing her.
Karr, without expoiting even just bring all mobs into the air and the fights are easy, the few mobs you cant make airborn you can nuke down from a DISTANCE. Hell, lets see you take the ENTIRE Kobold area even 2x GWF .... guess what you die, guess what 2 CW do? hell even 1 Good AOE specced CW can destroy it... again
CC+RANGE+AOE> LESS AOE + TANKING
now for kidbs
I'm not talking about using shield, its not needed, it used to be helpful but still not needed. Just like you and copti i am being stubborn the MAJORITY of the GWF (as by the posts ive read and what i have seen in game) have all stated what is needed for the GWF. If they are not the UNDISPUTED kings of AOE then they are useless. PERIOD. if you can CC + RANGE + AOE better than a GWF, why bother tanking? Honestly if you don't see a problem with the fact that CW can do it all then you are a CW fanboy.
If you for some reason think that the GWF should not be the AOE kings then what should they be? the NOT NEEDED TANKS? the NOT NEEDED SUB PAR DPS? a ranged class should never do the DPS of a melee for any reason. There is a reason that all other successful games have made the range less damage than melee, RANGE IS EASIER AND SAFER, and if the range has CC then they should be doing ALOT LESS DAMAGE.
For the last time, dungeons need to change not the class. The problem is that for most dungeons tanks are not needed. This is a problem with dungeons in this game. MC is a decent start because tanks indeed make the run go smoother. Thus GWFs who actually try to hold threat are a great asset. For dungeons where tanks are not needed... well GFs are in the same boat as you. So your strongest argument is to make tanks more needed. You are a tank in this game and tanks in this game hold threat while dpsing.
As for the ranged dps vs melee dps argument it's a silly one that holds no bearing on whether you will be brought to a dungeon or not. But to respond anyway... Games where ranged dps have done more dps than melee during their runnings: WoW, Warhammer, SWToR, Rift, Secret World just to name a few.
I'm done arguing. Your crusade that is focusing solely on damage will change nothing for your class and will still keep you sitting on the sidelines.
I wholeheartedly agree with kidbs on this matter. The design of the dungeons is the true issue at hand. It's so obvious if we compare spider/spellplague/CN to lets say MC. Every time I run MC I'm always #1 on the dmg done and last time I was ahead by around 2 mill dmg. The other dungeons that I mentioned are heavily dominated by CW's simply because of how those dungeons are designed. I am talking about the ability to throw sings and push mobs down bridges and cliffs. That's what it's all about.
I hope that the devs know about this problem and that they are trying to change their dungeon-design philosophies with the addition of MC. But one decent dungeon isn't enough.
AGAIN i never said we should have more dam are you hard of reading you also jesus christ when will you "stick the hand in the sand" fanboys stop posting for just the sake of argue agains whatever is said about the lack of a real role the gwfs has today.
And yes groups rather takes a 9-10k cw before a 13k gwf in todays t2 becouse they add more to the "fast runs" the majority are after.
2nd I never stated i have trubble getting groups as i have a guild that support me so once again you jump in conclutions that are plainly wrong.
I do however know what other classes can do and have run alot of t2 dungeons with and without a gwf and if you dont realize that gwf dont add to a group in the wast majority of the dungeons in this game compared to other classes you are truly cluless.
I even said giving a dps boost that put us in par with tr would serve nothing and only putt another class in our role.
My suggestion if you can read was to f.ex. to make the dungeons harder to go though if you skipp classes.
If you dont bother to read what is written dont bother to comment it either as its just pointless and a waste of space.
This i take as a challange if you play on beholder server i will put you into a group with 2 cws 1 tr and one dc in a t2 dungeon of your shoise and if you come even close to 2/3 of the damage from either cw:s (whos is between 13-14GS) i will personally give you 1 mill ad. On the other hand if you fail you will give each other member of the party 100.000 ad as a fine for taking up our time with nonsence.
Tbh your statement only proves that you are utterly clueless about high end gaming and what cw:s are capeble of doing compared to gwfs.
I call shinanigans on you for making this claim, Give screen shots of dmage meters and of each members gear or it did not happen. Even in MC where GWF's have the easiest time dealing good damage An equally geared CW can compare to any GWF
I have a GWF where I can easily top 15k in my gear score.. I have run as much epics as anyone....including alot of MC... I run perfect weapon/armor enchants... I know what I'm doing... The active members in my guild are very good players and yes a CW will nowadays almost always top dps charts... Anyone who says there GWF always tops the charts is either running epics with less geared/skilled CWs or lying.. I use to top all dps charts a month ago.. And this has changed alot recently..
I have respec close to 20 times now trying to maximise a dps build.. And I believe I have close to the best option ATM.. And still a simlar gear/slightly lower geared and skilled CW will top me.. If I run a pug however wil ppl not as sure as to what to do I will top the chart.
Anyone that says a GWF can build as pure tank without sacralising dps.. As I have seen in this thread also doesn't know what they are talking about... Yes a GWF can be a decent tank.. But drops huge amounts of dps doing so..that's how it works..
The problem is that threat generation is very low, losing more dps to tank loses threat as well... If you spec all dps then you lose alot of tanking ability..
But right now the main issue is the AP generation which has nerfed the class more than anything..
Other than that the class is still a mess of dps/threat/survivability.... All don't line up in any effective way
Spoken by somebody that knows what he is talking about(I have respec close to 20 times now trying to maximise a dps build-talk about RESPECT).
Those that have a good time playing gwf:s with friends and in guilds and feel that they are perfectly happy with their role -i am happy for ya ( i myself pretty much fall into that catagory).
Those that just trolls for the sake of trolling refusing to see that why the gwfs struggles to get groups for t2 - get a reality check.
FYI i dont really care how they solve this issue with gwfs role in nw 5 groups dungeons only that the issue is acknowlege so something can be done about it.
More debuffing, slowing mobs, faster ap gain or whatever is some suggestions and am fine with whatever solotions that places the gwf back on the map of wanted classes again.
GWFs don't have a taunt kidbs. As others have already stated, GWF tank stuff primarily by damage agro. I hear what you are saying about the tanking utility but, in reality, it just doesn't work at the moment. In order to be tanky enough, you sacrifice damage stats, which kills your threat. In order to do enough threat, you sacrifice survivability. It's nigh-on impossible to find a happy medium with a GWF. As a GWF you are either really survivable with low damage (outside of really high end enchants) or you do some damage but get poleaxed if a group turns on you. Unstoppable won't save you on it's own in it's current form.
CWs don't have to make those sacrifices in order to damage or control. As a CW, the same stats that make me do better damage, allow me to control better. As such, CWs do both well (and better than a GWF), which is why groups with 3 CWs are becoming more and more common. Personally, I have no problem with CWs doing high damage, provided they are forced to sacrifice their control in order to do it. In doing so, CWs are forced to make the same hard choices GWF make when gearing their characters. The same also goes for the GF. If they want to do damage, their survivability should take a big hit.