P.S. You don't have a spec. Stop lying and pretending like you're some Rogue guru who knows some secret uber spec that doesn't rely on Duelist's Flurry, stealth, and Lurker's Assault to do high DPS in PvE.
I'm not pretending anything, any good rogue will know what i'm talking about.
If the patch goes live as it is , im not going to use lurker assault. There are some alternatives that can make up the huge loss in DPS . Also there are other encounters that will still increase my DPS rate.
I'm not pretending anything, any good rogue will know what i'm talking about.
If the patch goes live as it is , im not going to use lurker assault. There are some alternatives that can make up the huge loss in DPS . Also there are other encounters that will still increase my DPS rate.
Cheers Mr.know it all.
You're merely a forum troll, pretending to be a knowledgeable Rogue that has a secret spec that's comparable to what most good Rogues are using now for PvE. You don't, and any semi-intelligent and knowledgeable Rogue knows you're full of sh*t.
What Daily are you going to use? Whirlwind? LOL that AoE damage is nothing compared to what Lurker's did. Bloodbath? Courage Breaker? Shocking Execution? Stop kidding yourself and lying to others about some fairy tale Daily that hasn't been invented yet, which will do nearly as much DPS as LA did.
What Encounters will increase your DPS anymore than what Rogues are already using? FYI Cryptic didn't nerf or buff any Rogue Encounters. There goes your secret Encounters that'll increase your DPS comment.
What At-Will will you use to replace Duelist's Flurry? Sly? Gloaming? Once again, nothing will replace what Cryptic is about nerf to the ground. The main At-Will PvE Rogues use for DPS is getting nerfed to HAMSTER AGAIN. But I'm sure you have some super secret awesome spec and new At-Will that nobody knows about which will make up for the extreme loss in DPS, right?
You're merely a forum troll, pretending to be a knowledgeable Rogue that has a secret spec that's comparable to what most good Rogues are using now for PvE. You don't, and any semi-intelligent and knowledgeable Rogue knows you're full of sh*t.
What Daily are you going to use? Whirlwind? LOL that AoE damage is nothing compared to what Lurker's did. Bloodbath? Courage Breaker? Shocking Execution? Stop kidding yourself and lying to others about some fairy tale Daily that hasn't been invented yet, which will do nearly as much DPS as LA did.
What Encounters will increase your DPS anymore than what Rogues are already using? FYI Cryptic didn't nerf or buff any Rogue Encounters. There goes your secret Encounters that'll increase your DPS comment. Good one, bro.
What At-Will will you use to replace Duelist's Flurry? Sly? Gloaming? Once again, nothing will replace what Cryptic is about nerf to the ground. The main At-Will PvE Rogues use for DPS is getting nerfed to HAMSTER AGAIN. But I'm sure you have some super secret awesome spec and new At-Will that nobody knows about which will make up for the extreme loss in DPS, right?
STFU and GTFO you dumbass troll.
I think you may have some issues with reading comprehension.
I never said i will use any new at- wills .
I have merely said that there are some encounters and dailies combined together that can make up the damage loss...I never said that cryptic nerfed any rogue's encounters but that doesn't mean i can use other ones to increase my DPS ,right?
You probably play TR the classic way, following guides literally and used to get the info spoon fed to you . Hence why you cant figure what i'm talking about.
Please remain civil and no need to flame just because i know something you clearly don't.
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avianbandorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 24Arc User
However in my opinion for it to work. the following must be present.
1) Absolutely no ability to switch gear at anytime during or before start, of pvp once qued.
2) The pvp gear must be always obtainable via the present means like GG and pvp glory set.
The only problem i see with this is. it will put abit of a strain on ppl who like both aspects pve and pvp. cos u need to ENCHANT both sets.
Sure, that's true. It's a bit of work on the consumer side and especially developers side. But I think this solves much more problems than it creates. It's an effective way to separate the two entities on the same server.
Anyhow, thanks for the reply. Hope it reaches the right eyes!
the same reasoning applies to pve TR. have fun killing bosses with GF, GWF or a TR with its arms tied behind its back and wielding a dagger in its mouth.
yes, maybe you have many 12k+ GS players in your guild and it'll be no problem, but the 9-10k GS party are not taking down aboleth, hrimnir and the likes any soon.
OK. Respectfully. This is a suggestion thread. To try and combat the damage about to be done to our class.
If you have nothing to contribute/unwilling to. I don't see a need for you here. Thanks and goodbye.
I like all the suggestions so far, besides the LB one. I think that LB should remain the same.
Because the 100% stealthed LB is what guarantee me to have a chance in getting quick kills in PvP.
However i said that if patch goes to live as it is , there are some combination of encounters, dailies and feats that can be used and i will use to make up the DPS loss.
That's just my humble opinion and there is no obligation for anyone to listen to me.
Well I am already in the process of leaving, I decided the game is not worth it at all. The TR gutting was just the nail in the coffin. I don't like anything about PW and what they are about and the forums are a POS with HAMSTER mods and their customer service is sub par, the game has no GM support, and apparently everyone is still playing beta with all these major changes they are doing. I been having a blast playing EQ again with my guildies, its actually a challenge for one thing and not loaded with HAMSTER amount of adds. I just dropped another 40 bucks on SOE to buy an expansion pack, money they could have got, but why waste my time and money or breath. They don't listen.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
I'm not really looking forward to excruciatingly long boss fights. Especially not with the constantly spawning infinite stream of adds.
Well I am already in the process of leaving, I decided the game is not worth it at all. The TR gutting was just the nail in the coffin. I don't like anything about PW and what they are about and the forums are a POS with HAMSTER mods and their customer service is sub par, the game has no GM support, and apparently everyone is still playing beta with all these major changes they are doing. I been having a blast playing EQ again with my guildies, its actually a challenge for one thing and not loaded with HAMSTER amount of adds. I just dropped another 40 bucks on SOE to buy an expansion pack, money they could have got, but why waste my time and money or breath. They don't listen.
Flaming the MODs and CS wont get you anywhere.Also EQ sucks but i'm glad you found a game that suits your desires.
Well I am already in the process of leaving, I decided the game is not worth it at all. The TR gutting was just the nail in the coffin. I don't like anything about PW and what they are about and the forums are a POS with HAMSTER mods and their customer service is sub par, the game has no GM support, and apparently everyone is still playing beta with all these major changes they are doing. I been having a blast playing EQ again with my guildies, its actually a challenge for one thing and not loaded with HAMSTER amount of adds. I just dropped another 40 bucks on SOE to buy an expansion pack, money they could have got, but why waste my time and money or breath. They don't listen.
Well. Like i said. I'll kep trying till i see the note that they are going LIVE with it.
Do check back now and again to see if perhaps, they decided to rethink the horrible nerf.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
A pure PVP server and an option to migrate our chars there.
THAT would be heaven......
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
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preternatural1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited July 2013
Seriously, it wasn't that long ago that I was telling my friends how this was a good game, and though there weren't many classes, they were almost balanced, and most of them (until recently, except the GWF; and THEY are very much so, lately...) are quite powerful, allowing you that "heroic" feeling as you play the game.
Well, I, for one, am glad that I play other games -- because although I have 4 slots, with 4 characters, all of whom I actively play, my Rogue is my only level 60 and also my most active (call it my "Main", if you will) -- since you <PWE, the devs, whoever> are SO intent on SH*TTING on Rogues, and making the class INEFFECTIVE, congratulations, ladies and gentlemen, you're losing a customer if ANY of the changes that negatively affect Rogues' "striker", as you put it, or single target damage-dealing ability, as I put it, goes live. I understand this loss of a customer matters very little to you people, but; it is what it is.
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preternatural1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
And you better believe that GWFs and CWs are happy about it...half the time. It's that other half of the time that drives them to the forums to cry and whine and moan because they're not topping the DPS charts. Between that and their fear and inability to deal with them in PvP has led us to this current situation.
And then you know what's gonna happen next? We'll see a lot less Rogues in both Dungeons and PvP. But that's not going to bother the whiners...no, no, they'll be happy. But it's what will happen next that will be sweet irony. Because now GWFs and CWs will have to compete with each other for DPS and PvP kills. So the two classes that ganged up to nerf the TR into the ground will now be pointing the fingers at each other. Eventually, either the GWF will limp away with another crippling nerf, or the CW will finally get the smirk wiped off their collective faces.
And then their tears will be delicious.
^^^^^^
This guy has, sadly, been around for more than a few of these little dramas. Although s/he's been banned, sadly... I was genuinely curious about something: does anyone NOT perceive CWs as the "Golden Children"/"All Star"/"Developer Favorite" class that would be fated to come out ahead of any said pairing or 'ganging up'? At least, that's how I've seen it, maybe my perception is skewed, maybe not; but its' starting to look like it doesn't truly matter in the least WHAT my perception of any class, race, nor... indeed anything whatsoever about this game is; I'm likely going to just be playing The Secret World if these ill conceived nerfs go live.
PWE, nice to see, that in the end, you knew how to let the tail wag the dog. Seriously, best single-target damage. Just like GF tanked, until a few months ago. Just like GWF had a role until very recently. Its not even that I don't have other characters to play, in fact, my Rogue has been broken for quite some time (you see, I can't AFFORD to respect at whim, and also, I - apparently unlike EVERYONE ELSE am NOT a perma-stealth build) and I just haven't been playing him, so I've been mostly playing my 3 other characters and PvPing a few times a day on my Rogue. Anyways, like I've said elsewhere, if you manage to fix the whole 'perma-stealth' thing, WITHOUT hurting my ability to do single-target damage -- you know, my role, job, whatever -- you call it a "Striker" -- well, then congrats, I'll see ya round. Otherwise, you can lick my balls, and you lost a customer; cause I'm sick and tired of your sh*t. Catering to a bunch of whining f*cktards that can't even play a GAME properly while those of us that CAN are penalized time and time again and have to RELEARN because of the same bunch of MORONS that seem to gravitate to EVER NEW GAME that comes out: and you developers TIME AND TIME AGAIN cater to them, and RUIN YOUR OWN PRODUCTS 'SIMPLY' because they're paying customers... of course, there has to be at least SOME among you that sees this; whatever, it's not my game.
Lets just wait to see IF it goes live before totally throwing this game away.
There are alot of suggestions here, i do believe(i'm praying actually) that the devs have read this, and are rethinking this drastic move.
An answer of some sort would be good, or at least a "we've decided to rework the nerf" announcement would be appreciated. People are not feeling good, and not logging in....that announcement or ANY announcement would change this feeling of uncertainty....
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
That would be hilarious but they know DC's like him would "rage quit" and they maybe want to keep clerics, don't even bother with this one, they are absolutely clueless.
The only thing they seem to want, based on what it is they nerf and what they don't even mention, is people to buy zen to get vorpals, tene's and plaguefires. Stack up on those and you counter any nerf the devs throw at you and steamroll whomever the hell you like.
This makes the folks who had a nice headstart in the game and have 'found' millions of AD quite happy too, as they continue what it is they are doing just fine. Wiping pvp matches just the same, speedrushing dungeons just the same, leading to the same qq'ing and crying on theses boards so the whole process of nerfing can be rinsed and repeated.
Untill they prove me wrong with actions, to the devs it's only about the $$. Sucker a few new players into the game with positive reviews, grab their couple of hundreds and see them whittle away within months. Rinse and repeat.
I used to be very positive about this game, but they are killing it.
Lurker's section Original from my post in test shard forums There has been a hidden buff of 8% increase in damage for Duelist Flurry / Cloud of Steel / Sly Flourish
All of my calculations does not rely on vorpal enchantments, if u see the vorpal numbers... rogue tears will flow like a river best to leave it out.
Cloud of Steel Cloud of Steel: This power now has 8 maximum charges, down from 12.
Mostly our PvP skill, PvE used for pulls. It is debatable in PvE sly flourish vs CoS for second at-will slot.
Assuming our target is not attempting to dodge max charges.
After testing in the test shard, you are able to chuck all 8 daggers before your stealth run out.
The damage numbers will be exactly the same as 8 daggers on the Live shard.
Hidden Tip for Rogues Want to restack bleed? don't know when will it fall off? Just got ur Lurker's up again?
Chuck all 12 daggers at boss immediately after finishing the last flurry. then immediately after chucking all daggers Flurry. When your second awkward attack hits, Bleed debuff falls off.
Duelist Flurry
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
With this patch your bleed keeps refreshing, depending after every flurry(pretty sure it refreshes during your flurry, every time a stacked is applied.)
Live Shard:
Average bleed:5000
Average Lurker Bleed:10750
Test Shard:
Average Bleed: 5000
Since this bleed number is fixated around an average number, no matter how you try to boost damage with lurker's ur subsequent bleedstacks will constantly overwrite the previous bleed stack thus the average bleed will remain relatively the same with or without damage buffs. skewed towards higher damage assuming using damage boosting skills such as lurker's(15% crit severity.)
Non Crit
There is a Hidden buff of 8% increase in all of our at wills.
Live: 2000+2000+10(2000(0.4))= 12000
Test: 2160+2160+10(2160(0.4))= 12960
Overall Our base damage
____________________________________________________________
Lurkers Nerf Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 5 / 10 / 15% bonus Crit Severity, instead of 20 / 40 / 60% bonus damage.
Mathematically speaking:
Note that Duelist flurry deals 2 hits of base damage then hits 10 times for 30-40% of the that damage. lets be generous and give us 40%. Being generous again lets give rogues 50% crit chance to make things simplier with no vorpal enchants.
Note this is without overrun critical(which provides somewhere between 10-5% of total damage depending on rogue's crit chance(its too complex to explain here, so we'll leave this out)).
Flat base Crit severity: 75%
Brutal Backstab feat: 25%(understealth)
Deadly Momentum feat: 15%(after lots of flurries)
Total: Crit severity 115% which means 215% of regular damage
I actually hit around 1800-1900.
Live: 1 Duelist Flurry(4 seconds)
Average damage per hit out of LA: 2000+2000+10(2000(0.4))= 12000
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Average damage per hit in LA:
no crit: 3200+3200+10(3200(0.4))= 19200
50% crit: 3200+2.15(3200)+5(3200(0.4))+5*2.15(3200(0.4))=30240
LA Duration:10 seconds.
Thus I can fit 2.5 Flurries(not exactly true due to awkward initial cast animations since more damage is dealt in the subsequent 2 seconds) in a lurkers. Total damage over 10 seconds is = 75600, divide that by 2 which will yield 5 seconds for 37800 damage.
Test:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Same as in Live server except the fact that stealth runs out before flurry can finish thus you deal less damage(due to losing brutal backstab feat) in test than live. Lets ignore that and assume they deal same damage.
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2160+2.15(2160)+5(2160(0.4))+5*2.15(2160(0.4)) =20412
Average damage per hit in LA:
115% crit severity becomes 130% crit severity, which changes equation to:
2160+2.3(2160)+5(2160(0.4))+5*2.3(2160(0.4))= 21384
Since this is over the course of 5 seconds and assuming stealth does not run out(which is not true). you are able to squeeze in 1.25 flurries 1 flurry + 1 second of 4 seconds flurry. This will yield me 20412*1.25= 25515
LA Duration: 5 seconds
Live Shard, Over 10 seconds under Live Lurker's: 75600
Test Shard, Over 10 seconds 5 under Lurker's and 5 seconds without lurkers: 25515+21384= 46899.
Difference in damage= 28701
% loss from Live shard=28701/75600 = 38% loss in damage.
Second note, this does not include encounters which provides even more burst to lurker's damage. With this patch going live, its bye bye to my rogue and hello to my gwf since my sure strike will 100% out dps my rogue with or without my unstoppable and have much more utility and survivablity.
Stealth/Our at-wills/Class Ability
Stealth: At-will powers used from stealth will now partially deplete the Stealth Meter.
This is tricky to mathematically calculate. due to the fact that stealth runs out before duelist flurry finishes. If the first 2 awkward attacks are not in stealth the 10 attacks followed up depletes the whole stealth bar. If begin the first attacks are in stealth, the stealth runs out before flurry.
Flurry damage wise, its only a slight nerf since you are not taking full 100% of the brutal backstab feat.
Survivablity wise: we wont have stealth to begin with if u want to attack(like when i first played rogue lvling and chucking pots from lvl 20-30 not realizing i had stealth)
Stealth Lasts for a total of 5 seconds. Previously we can 1 flurry + encounter to benefit from the full of the stealth + encounter. Now we cant even finish flurry before stealth finishes. So good bye encounter bonuses.
Is Class Ability suppose to have synergy with our at-wills and our encounter's? Guardian Fighter: Block gives 2 new at-wills synergizes with their skills to tank and refill guard meter. Great Weapon Fighter: Unstoppable gives Attack speed boost to at-wills, damage reduction, temporary hp, and encounter damage bonus. Control Wizard: Spell mastery gives another encounter slot, magic missile gives arcane, spells on tab uses arcane(some spells). Devout Cleric: Divinity gives new at-wills, encounter bonus loses 1 charge when used, damage builds divinity.
And then we have: Rogues Stealth gives us bonus encounter effects but loses stealth when used, gain 100% combat advantage for duration of it, cannot be seen by most adds.
Cons of each class ability:
Guard- limits potential aoe cleave damage potential.
Determination/Unstoppable- need to take damage(not alot lol), reduction in at-will damage
Spell Mastery- none, are u going to tell me its hard to do at-wills because your cooldowns on your encounters keep coming off because u have 4 different spells?
Divinity- anything in divine mode costs divinity.
Stealth- anything in stealth costs stealth, taking damage reduces stealth.
DC Divinity vs TR stealth
Team Benefit vs Personal Benefit
Ranged Class vs Melee Class
Support vs Striker/Damage Dealer
Medium armor class/Low Armor class
I see pure synergy in other classes with their class abilities, I do not see rogues have any sort of synergy with stealth you can pop stealth and use encounter, but what about the other 2 encounters? dc with full divinity can use all 3 encounters. everything we do reduces stealth, dcs can deal damage while in non divinity mode to gain divinity. we just have to wait and regen or use shadow strike another encounter for 5 secs of stealth thats going to run out in 5 secs if we do nothing with it.
I do understand to tone down the power of rogues in PvP. However understand that such drastic nerfs are to be even attempt to be implemented in a test server, shows that no one in the development team did any sort of arithmetic calculations on this nerf unless this such severe nerf is intended by the dev team to cripple the rogue. Even on test shard this nerf is so severe, along with the mockery of the new t2 gear from feywild module makes me more sad.
T2 gear set for rogues is: on your attacks you poison your target for 53xx damage over 15 seconds, targets cannot be internal cooldown on target of 15 secs(aka hit target deals 5k poison damage over 15 secs then next 15 secs unable to refresh debuff poison. u can apply new stack of poison after the second 15seconds)
Question is rogues have aoe skills that can benefit from this poison? Whirlwind, Blitz, stacked adds with dazing, stacked adds with wicked, pseudo aoe path of blades? If this t2 set bonus that deals 10k damage on a cw it can be understandable because they actually can make use of this damage, while single target rogues cannot.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 12.7k gwf(3k stone)
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2k TR(3k stone)
Dragon Shard and Test Shard
Edit: to those whom think this nerf to rogues was deserved... prepare your bottoms with lube for my gwf. Because since annoying rogues who deals no damage is dealt with by cryptic, it cleared the road for my GWF to become king of PvP and PvE, in damage, survivablity, and utility. Sadly for the rogue, they will have no real stun, no damage, no hp, no armor, a mere joke of "stealth" and fade away into oblivion...
+1 to OP
Melee at-wills shouldn't deplete stealth, only the ranged one should.
I'd also like to see LB somehow capped like dmg x-y OR 50% of target max HP.
This way Lurkers could be restored too.
I'm a DC and I still think this nerf is unjustified. The changes don't fix PvP balance, the problem vs. TRs is LB 1shotting, and the answer isn't nerfing Lurker's, because LB 1shots without it too.
Just cap their damage at % of target's max HP.
And nerf Tenebrous.
Or give +% max HP and +% damage reduction buffs in Dominion. Whatever works.
I mean come on, be realistic with the changes. Balance cleverly for goodness' sake.
(Also implement a dmg meter in Dominion and reward the winner of highest dmg, healing, etc instead of "who runs around the most ignoring others and capping like crazy". You could also make the rewards useful while you're at it.)
+1 to OP
Melee at-wills shouldn't deplete stealth, only the ranged one should.
I'd also like to see LB somehow capped like dmg x-y OR 50% of target max HP.
This way Lurkers could be restored too.
I'm a DC and I still think this nerf is unjustified. The changes don't fix PvP balance, the problem vs. TRs is LB 1shotting, and the answer isn't nerfing Lurker's, because LB 1shots without it too.
Just cap their damage at % of target's max HP.
And nerf Tenebrous.
Or give +% max HP and +% damage reduction buffs in Dominion. Whatever works.
I mean come on, be realistic with the changes. Balance cleverly for goodness' sake.
(Also implement a dmg meter in Dominion and reward the winner of highest dmg, healing, etc instead of "who runs around the most ignoring others and capping like crazy". You could also make the rewards useful while you're at it.)
They could add functions that have been standard to mmo's for over ten years while they are at it.
Honestly if the cool downs on shadow strike and bait and switch are increased slighting then that will take away perma stealth without gutting the class.
The whole perma stealth relies on precise timing, and despite appearances is not permeant in PvP (they just use hiding spots to refill to make you believe it is). It is only permanent in PvE if you can manage to get in enough kills with gloaming cut (and have the 10% stealth meter on hit feat with glooming cut). Even then it is very close to being able to rotate bait and switch in stealth and shadow strike for the stealth refill.
On my stealth based TR I can only stay in stealth most of the time unless there are alot of weakling enemies to kill to extend my stealth time. When not in stealth I use a combination of dodging and gloaming cut to get back into stealth just to stay alive. If you go saboteur you already sacrifice some damage for that extra stealth. My stealth TR cannot expect to out dps an executioner spec unless she is way over geared.
Basically, you want to stop perma stealth? increase the cooldowns on bait and switch and shadow strike by about 2-3 seconds. That will kill perma stealth without gutting the class as a whole.
So many pages of suggestions, even mathematically tested info on the nerfs. EVERYTHING is provided here in this thread to show the devs how drastic and class breaking this changes are.
I hope to see an announcement soon on this being rethought.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
Also, after having tested the changes on preview server.LA now teleports you to your target, often ontop of it. I hope the devs can see how this is totally impractical in pve.
It's funny, in a previous patch they fixed where DF used to move us to the front of a dragon, now they add something that essentially moves us on it's head. Spellplague gonna be fun.
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's exactly what every non-Rogue class wanted. They want the Rogue class to be worthless so their class can shine, be picked over Rogues for PvE groups, and dominate in PvP without having to worry about Rogues competing with them or owning them in PvP.
... You are saying that right now the rogues are much more efficient than other classes and they are always be picked up instead of, lets say, GWF to run dungeons.
That is correct
It seems that you want GWFs never to be picked for dungeons... ever.
So... lets keep TR OP and GWFs out of DGs.
(Ps. Avatar of war Helm is very expensive right now, why?)
... You are saying that right now the rogues are much more efficient than other classes and they are always be picked up instead of, lets say, GWF to run dungeons.
For their role, yes. If you want single-target DPS, then you should pick a rogue over a GWF. If you want an off-tank, then you certainly want to take a GWF over a rogue. A GWF can compete with rogues by providing DPS, but a rogue can't compete with a GWF when it comes to off-tanking.
What you are saying is that you want GWF to take over the only thing rogues can offer, in addition to the role a GWF brings which a rogue can't compete with. You already have the off-tank role, and now you are complaining that you have to compete with rogues on DPS, which is the only thing rogues have to offer.
GWF seems to be next in line for the PvP QQ nerf bat, BTW.
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
For their role, yes. If you want single-target DPS, then you should pick a rogue over a GWF. If you want an off-tank, then you certainly want to take a GWF over a rogue. A GWF can compete with rogues by providing DPS, but a rogue can't compete with a GWF when it comes to off-tanking.
What you are saying is that you want GWF to take over the only thing rogues can offer, in addition to the role a GWF brings which a rogue can't compete with. You already have the off-tank role, and now you are complaining that you have to compete with rogues on DPS, which is the only thing rogues have to offer.
GWF seems to be next in line for the PvP QQ nerf bat, BTW.
Im Complaining that no one will invite a GWF for dungeons,
Rogues do sooooo much more single dmg than GWF that it makes much faster to run a dungeon with a rogue and 2 cw than a rogue, a gwf and a CW...
Rogues need to be nerfed... maybe not so much... but they do.
Also rogue is not only about dmg... they have lots of other utilities that makes then much more desirable for dungeon
Im Complaining that no one will invite a GWF for dungeons
Then that's a problem with dungeon design, not rogues. You should be asking for help for your own class, instead of asking for another class to be nerfed so you can take over their role.
They're supposed to, that's what rogues are for. If you take that away from rogues then rogues are useless in PvE. Which is actually what is about to happen, so you're going to get your wish.
The nerf really isn't as bad as people are crying. Its serious but in no way breaks the class. There are still viable ways of playing and having fun on a rogue. The only people that will ragequit the game over the nerf are the cry babies, drama queens, and jerk offs that wanted to exploit a previously overpowered build. If that's the case, good riddens...we don't want those players around anyways. The rest of the rogues will adapt and find new ways to be awesome.
The nerf really isn't as bad as people are crying. Its serious but in no way breaks the class. There are still viable ways of playing and having fun on a rogue. The only people that will ragequit the game over the nerf are the cry babies, drama queens, and jerk offs that wanted to exploit a previously overpowered build. If that's the case, good riddens...we don't want those players around anyways. The rest of the rogues will adapt and find new ways to be awesome.
Actually, dummy, if you read this thread thoroughly, you would see that they are giving suggestions to fix perma-stealth, not trying to keep it as is. It's mostly about pve also. TR's are worried they will lose their chance at running dungeons. If you had the choice between a cw that can cc from range, with great damage, or a tr that does lower damage, and that's it, what would you take? If you had the choice between a gwf that can survive a heck of a lot, and hit multiple targets efficiently, or a tr that has horrible survivability due to low dodge recharge and bad defense, and lower damage than that gwf, what would you take?
They are making a couple builds viable, that will do less damage, and have no utility, so that everyone has to respec or put in new enchants that you have to pay to make. More money for them. GG.
TL : DR? Then don't waste my time responding.
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Then that's a problem with dungeon design, not rogues. You should be asking for help for your own class, instead of asking for another class to be nerfed so you can take over their role.
The nerf is going to help GWF's to be more desirable for dungeons... Closing the gap between the 2 st dmg to a reasonable amount will make people invite 1 gwf and 1 tr instead 2 tr, or 1 tr and 1 cw... (well probably, i hope).
They're supposed to, that's what rogues are for. If you take that away from rogues then rogues are useless in PvE. Which is actually what is about to happen, so you're going to get your wish.
it is too much dmg, I estimate that a good TR can do 100% or more dmg to single target, FH boss without mobs, than GWF (both with with tier 2 equip with tier 5 enchantments, full dmg, normal vorpals and allure), of course TR should do more single target dmg, but not that much.
Comments
I'm not pretending anything, any good rogue will know what i'm talking about.
If the patch goes live as it is , im not going to use lurker assault. There are some alternatives that can make up the huge loss in DPS . Also there are other encounters that will still increase my DPS rate.
Cheers Mr.know it all.
You're merely a forum troll, pretending to be a knowledgeable Rogue that has a secret spec that's comparable to what most good Rogues are using now for PvE. You don't, and any semi-intelligent and knowledgeable Rogue knows you're full of sh*t.
What Daily are you going to use? Whirlwind? LOL that AoE damage is nothing compared to what Lurker's did. Bloodbath? Courage Breaker? Shocking Execution? Stop kidding yourself and lying to others about some fairy tale Daily that hasn't been invented yet, which will do nearly as much DPS as LA did.
What Encounters will increase your DPS anymore than what Rogues are already using? FYI Cryptic didn't nerf or buff any Rogue Encounters. There goes your secret Encounters that'll increase your DPS comment.
What At-Will will you use to replace Duelist's Flurry? Sly? Gloaming? Once again, nothing will replace what Cryptic is about nerf to the ground. The main At-Will PvE Rogues use for DPS is getting nerfed to HAMSTER AGAIN. But I'm sure you have some super secret awesome spec and new At-Will that nobody knows about which will make up for the extreme loss in DPS, right?
STFU and GTFO you dumbass troll.
I think you may have some issues with reading comprehension.
I never said i will use any new at- wills
I have merely said that there are some encounters and dailies combined together that can make up the damage loss...I never said that cryptic nerfed any rogue's encounters but that doesn't mean i can use other ones to increase my DPS ,right?
You probably play TR the classic way, following guides literally and used to get the info spoon fed to you
Please remain civil and no need to flame just because i know something you clearly don't.
Sure, that's true. It's a bit of work on the consumer side and especially developers side. But I think this solves much more problems than it creates. It's an effective way to separate the two entities on the same server.
Anyhow, thanks for the reply. Hope it reaches the right eyes!
yes, maybe you have many 12k+ GS players in your guild and it'll be no problem, but the 9-10k GS party are not taking down aboleth, hrimnir and the likes any soon.
If you have nothing to contribute/unwilling to. I don't see a need for you here. Thanks and goodbye.
I like all the suggestions so far, besides the LB one. I think that LB should remain the same.
Because the 100% stealthed LB is what guarantee me to have a chance in getting quick kills in PvP.
However i said that if patch goes to live as it is , there are some combination of encounters, dailies and feats that can be used and i will use to make up the DPS loss.
That's just my humble opinion and there is no obligation for anyone to listen to me.
Cheers
Flaming the MODs and CS wont get you anywhere.Also EQ sucks but i'm glad you found a game that suits your desires.
Well. Like i said. I'll kep trying till i see the note that they are going LIVE with it.
Do check back now and again to see if perhaps, they decided to rethink the horrible nerf.
THAT would be heaven......
Well, I, for one, am glad that I play other games -- because although I have 4 slots, with 4 characters, all of whom I actively play, my Rogue is my only level 60 and also my most active (call it my "Main", if you will) -- since you <PWE, the devs, whoever> are SO intent on SH*TTING on Rogues, and making the class INEFFECTIVE, congratulations, ladies and gentlemen, you're losing a customer if ANY of the changes that negatively affect Rogues' "striker", as you put it, or single target damage-dealing ability, as I put it, goes live. I understand this loss of a customer matters very little to you people, but; it is what it is.
^^^^^^
This guy has, sadly, been around for more than a few of these little dramas. Although s/he's been banned, sadly... I was genuinely curious about something: does anyone NOT perceive CWs as the "Golden Children"/"All Star"/"Developer Favorite" class that would be fated to come out ahead of any said pairing or 'ganging up'? At least, that's how I've seen it, maybe my perception is skewed, maybe not; but its' starting to look like it doesn't truly matter in the least WHAT my perception of any class, race, nor... indeed anything whatsoever about this game is; I'm likely going to just be playing The Secret World if these ill conceived nerfs go live.
PWE, nice to see, that in the end, you knew how to let the tail wag the dog. Seriously, best single-target damage. Just like GF tanked, until a few months ago. Just like GWF had a role until very recently. Its not even that I don't have other characters to play, in fact, my Rogue has been broken for quite some time (you see, I can't AFFORD to respect at whim, and also, I - apparently unlike EVERYONE ELSE am NOT a perma-stealth build) and I just haven't been playing him, so I've been mostly playing my 3 other characters and PvPing a few times a day on my Rogue. Anyways, like I've said elsewhere, if you manage to fix the whole 'perma-stealth' thing, WITHOUT hurting my ability to do single-target damage -- you know, my role, job, whatever -- you call it a "Striker" -- well, then congrats, I'll see ya round. Otherwise, you can lick my balls, and you lost a customer; cause I'm sick and tired of your sh*t. Catering to a bunch of whining f*cktards that can't even play a GAME properly while those of us that CAN are penalized time and time again and have to RELEARN because of the same bunch of MORONS that seem to gravitate to EVER NEW GAME that comes out: and you developers TIME AND TIME AGAIN cater to them, and RUIN YOUR OWN PRODUCTS 'SIMPLY' because they're paying customers... of course, there has to be at least SOME among you that sees this; whatever, it's not my game.
There are alot of suggestions here, i do believe(i'm praying actually) that the devs have read this, and are rethinking this drastic move.
An answer of some sort would be good, or at least a "we've decided to rework the nerf" announcement would be appreciated. People are not feeling good, and not logging in....that announcement or ANY announcement would change this feeling of uncertainty....
The only thing they seem to want, based on what it is they nerf and what they don't even mention, is people to buy zen to get vorpals, tene's and plaguefires. Stack up on those and you counter any nerf the devs throw at you and steamroll whomever the hell you like.
This makes the folks who had a nice headstart in the game and have 'found' millions of AD quite happy too, as they continue what it is they are doing just fine. Wiping pvp matches just the same, speedrushing dungeons just the same, leading to the same qq'ing and crying on theses boards so the whole process of nerfing can be rinsed and repeated.
Untill they prove me wrong with actions, to the devs it's only about the $$. Sucker a few new players into the game with positive reviews, grab their couple of hundreds and see them whittle away within months. Rinse and repeat.
I used to be very positive about this game, but they are killing it.
Transferred to the correct section
Melee at-wills shouldn't deplete stealth, only the ranged one should.
I'd also like to see LB somehow capped like dmg x-y OR 50% of target max HP.
This way Lurkers could be restored too.
I'm a DC and I still think this nerf is unjustified. The changes don't fix PvP balance, the problem vs. TRs is LB 1shotting, and the answer isn't nerfing Lurker's, because LB 1shots without it too.
Just cap their damage at % of target's max HP.
And nerf Tenebrous.
Or give +% max HP and +% damage reduction buffs in Dominion. Whatever works.
I mean come on, be realistic with the changes. Balance cleverly for goodness' sake.
(Also implement a dmg meter in Dominion and reward the winner of highest dmg, healing, etc instead of "who runs around the most ignoring others and capping like crazy". You could also make the rewards useful while you're at it.)
They could add functions that have been standard to mmo's for over ten years while they are at it.
The whole perma stealth relies on precise timing, and despite appearances is not permeant in PvP (they just use hiding spots to refill to make you believe it is). It is only permanent in PvE if you can manage to get in enough kills with gloaming cut (and have the 10% stealth meter on hit feat with glooming cut). Even then it is very close to being able to rotate bait and switch in stealth and shadow strike for the stealth refill.
On my stealth based TR I can only stay in stealth most of the time unless there are alot of weakling enemies to kill to extend my stealth time. When not in stealth I use a combination of dodging and gloaming cut to get back into stealth just to stay alive. If you go saboteur you already sacrifice some damage for that extra stealth. My stealth TR cannot expect to out dps an executioner spec unless she is way over geared.
Basically, you want to stop perma stealth? increase the cooldowns on bait and switch and shadow strike by about 2-3 seconds. That will kill perma stealth without gutting the class as a whole.
I hope to see an announcement soon on this being rethought.
It's funny, in a previous patch they fixed where DF used to move us to the front of a dragon, now they add something that essentially moves us on it's head. Spellplague gonna be fun.
... You are saying that right now the rogues are much more efficient than other classes and they are always be picked up instead of, lets say, GWF to run dungeons.
That is correct
It seems that you want GWFs never to be picked for dungeons... ever.
So... lets keep TR OP and GWFs out of DGs.
(Ps. Avatar of war Helm is very expensive right now, why?)
For their role, yes. If you want single-target DPS, then you should pick a rogue over a GWF. If you want an off-tank, then you certainly want to take a GWF over a rogue. A GWF can compete with rogues by providing DPS, but a rogue can't compete with a GWF when it comes to off-tanking.
What you are saying is that you want GWF to take over the only thing rogues can offer, in addition to the role a GWF brings which a rogue can't compete with. You already have the off-tank role, and now you are complaining that you have to compete with rogues on DPS, which is the only thing rogues have to offer.
GWF seems to be next in line for the PvP QQ nerf bat, BTW.
Im Complaining that no one will invite a GWF for dungeons,
Rogues do sooooo much more single dmg than GWF that it makes much faster to run a dungeon with a rogue and 2 cw than a rogue, a gwf and a CW...
Rogues need to be nerfed... maybe not so much... but they do.
Also rogue is not only about dmg... they have lots of other utilities that makes then much more desirable for dungeon
Then that's a problem with dungeon design, not rogues. You should be asking for help for your own class, instead of asking for another class to be nerfed so you can take over their role.
They're supposed to, that's what rogues are for. If you take that away from rogues then rogues are useless in PvE. Which is actually what is about to happen, so you're going to get your wish.
Actually, dummy, if you read this thread thoroughly, you would see that they are giving suggestions to fix perma-stealth, not trying to keep it as is. It's mostly about pve also. TR's are worried they will lose their chance at running dungeons. If you had the choice between a cw that can cc from range, with great damage, or a tr that does lower damage, and that's it, what would you take? If you had the choice between a gwf that can survive a heck of a lot, and hit multiple targets efficiently, or a tr that has horrible survivability due to low dodge recharge and bad defense, and lower damage than that gwf, what would you take?
They are making a couple builds viable, that will do less damage, and have no utility, so that everyone has to respec or put in new enchants that you have to pay to make. More money for them. GG.
it is too much dmg, I estimate that a good TR can do 100% or more dmg to single target, FH boss without mobs, than GWF (both with with tier 2 equip with tier 5 enchantments, full dmg, normal vorpals and allure), of course TR should do more single target dmg, but not that much.