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Good suggestions to the TR nerf instead of raging.
allaerra
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 838 Bounty Hunter
I felt this needed another thread. The Rogue nerfs are ludicrous. The class is already nerfed into the ground. Half the time GWFs and CWs out damage Rogues in Dungeons since the earlier nerf. The Striker is now wimpy.
This newest set of nerfs is gamebreaking. Stop it! Stop breaking the game and start fixing it:mad:.
This newest set of nerfs is gamebreaking. Stop it! Stop breaking the game and start fixing it:mad:.
Post edited by allaerra on
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And then you know what's gonna happen next? We'll see a lot less Rogues in both Dungeons and PvP. But that's not going to bother the whiners...no, no, they'll be happy. But it's what will happen next that will be sweet irony. Because now GWFs and CWs will have to compete with each other for DPS and PvP kills. So the two classes that ganged up to nerf the TR into the ground will now be pointing the fingers at each other. Eventually, either the GWF will limp away with another crippling nerf, or the CW will finally get the smirk wiped off their collective faces.
And then their tears will be delicious.
The above is the facts and why this nerf is being tested.
Lets not go with the l2p stuff....i know it's tempting...but don't.
Lets try and SAVE the TR while also pleasing the ppl crying about the above.
I have a few suggestions. If u have better, please do post it.
1) Perma stealth: All you have to do is make Bait and switch NOT refill stealth meter. Make stealth strike regen 50% of max stealth meter. Thats it. NO MORE PERMA STEALTH
2) Stealth+LA+LB: Remove the confirmed crit from stealth on LB. Now it's a CHANCE to crit and not a confirmed one.
3)Cloud of steel in stealth: The right idea here. Make COS THE ONLY EXCLUSIVE SKILL that drains stealth meter while in stealth.
There u have it. From the way i look at my suggestions. You REMOVE the reasons the other ppl were crying. You balance the game without backlash from the TR community(except the perma stealth ones)
You don't GUT AND OVER NERF useful skills that TR players are using for pve and pvp.
IF I DID IT WRONG. please state your case in an ADULT fashion. If you agree, please also support the cause.
The above would be more amicable to EVERYONE. Devs. u said u listen. Lets try to meet in the middle on this one.
Perma stealth was a brilliant build someone created and worked EXTREMELY well....and because of this person finding one of the best builds for a TR people hate it because they can't counter it...FACT. I'v already stated being able to play Trs in different ways or any be it perma stealth, exercutioner or regen build should be allowed.
This Nerf bat is OTT...oh well most of my guild are seriously considering playing GWF and stream roll 5v5 PvP with Sent immortality mode
BUT, this is where we are now. We gotta find a way to stemm the tears AND also not ruin our class.
If the tears of many brought about this nerf.
Perhaps the LOGIC of many will have some saving grace for our class.
Please see that this is the only way before TR goes to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.....
Post or support. but please don't rage.
Guardian Fighters:
- "Perma Shield" too stronk, nerf nao plz. It ain't fair for me to stealth, it ain't fair for him to block...'nuff said.
- Prone combos gotta go, tired of being juggled to death. At least you can block my knives and break the chain, there's nothing I can do to break the chain of being knocked on my face endlessly.
Great Weapon Fighters:
- Sentinel needs nerf. Takes a concerted team effort to bring a geared Sent down. Not even being sarcastic with this one, sadly.
- So much crying about Impossible to Catch, where's the gripes about Unstoppable which is a far stronger move? Just saying.
Control Wizard:
- All that range and CC has gotta go. Let's see...you can pretty much lock me down with CC and pelt me to death from a great range, and then teleport away if I even manage to get anywhere near you. Our ability to one-shot you is a mercy compared to countless seconds of bombardment which only ItC can counter. We have to be closer to you to throw our knives than you have to be to hit us with your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. You guys have little room to complain about a Rogue.
Devoted Cleric:
- I don't even see enough of these guys in PvP to have an opinion. Maybe buff these guys or let them get assist points for their heals or something to entice them back.
Don't take this as a cry to nerf these other classes, as I said I'm not being serious. What I am pointing out is that other classes have things that are every bit as annoying as a TR has, but it doesn't mean they need to be nerfed into the ground.
This patch is a complete overreaction and takes everything that lets them compete and not get completely rolled over away. If you're going to nerf stealth, better go ahead and nerf block and Unstoppable too. If you're going to nerf our knives, then better start nerfing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of CW. Lurker's Assault isn't even a move that can be counted on in PvP, so nerfing that only serves to hurt TRs in PvE.
If you really wanna balance PvP, then apply stat and effect caps on everyone in PvP to limit how much gear can carry them. That's really it. No need to penalize entire groups of players for what a few highly-geared people are capable of. And if you really wanna do away with permastealth, a simple adjustment to INT or putting lower thresholds on some of the cooldowns might have worked instead of gimping a whole class.
I also don't know why players are saying the word Ruin. My class is ruined. Its no where close to ruined it will be working as intended now. If you mean my class won't be dominant far above the other classes and now is getting balanced. Guess that is your definition of RUINED. The rogue class will be fine.
instead of changing the Lashing blade 100% crit chance
i think you should just Change lurkers assult so that it is a 10/20/30% damage increase.
I dont understand the reason you are planning to change the calculating damage of the Dulest flurry's bleed. DF both the bleed and the initial damage are over 50% of my total damage in a dungoun run.
Edit: Also dont make DF take us out of stealth, that waste several feats that grant AP gain and Combat advantage from stealth when one At-Will combo will kill those bonus... PLZ
Keeping the bleed how it is makes PVE boss encounters have a skillcap, Nothing is more rewarding when you can tell a good rogue from a bad due to his ability to maintain a very good bleed stack throughout a full bossfight. It adds a skillcap to the the PVE content right now and rewards good rogues for knowing their class's mechanics.
I totally agree with killing permastealth due to the fact it is an anti fun spec combo, but i would rather you kill it by nerfing the abilitys that ONLY apply to the permastealth, Don't allow the Bait and switch to give back stealth and lower the amount shadowstrike gives back that is the only things needed to kill it.
I am fine lowering the number of CoS that we have, i think 2 would have been enough but if you want to decide taking 4 thats fine too. The ability to out damage a ranged class with just an at-will was crazy anyway.
But honestly, look to PVE when you are balancing, other than trash pulls we will have no Dailey ability worth using anymore because 15% crit severity is a joke, that means with 50% crit chance (which most people dont achive) its only a 7.5% damage increase. ANNNND you are going to make it last a small 5 seconds. that is a joke.
This is my and many others insight, ive spoken to several rogues and they mostly agree with 100% of what i say.
I hope this helps to decide on reverting some of the nerfs
~Skye~
When one build is heavily nerfed id like to see some lesser used powers buffed.
go to any permastealth or executioner buld guide and write down which ones are rated 1 or 0 or in some cases "why bother"
then look at why those are so hated and buff them just a bit.
Look at powers and feats that cater to pve and team support play that the pvp builds declare are not worth looking at nurture those.
everyone seems to go perma stealth or crit monkey with rogues but the survivability/flanking path that couldn't be used in pvp because it requires other people to be effective.
this way you will more accomplish what your really hoping to do. nerf rogue pvp without hurting rogue pve as much. and who knows if you do similar for all classes you nerf we might actually get builds that cater to strategy, team play, and cooperation rather than who has the highest dps/crit ratings ... yeah I know its crazy but it just might work.
Have u ever played TR? they change the way Tr is played, u can build defferent, but won't be the same. There is a CW build that let u take out boss with in seconds. ppl don't say anything about that right. How u gonna make a classe with stealth as one of its defenses know what, ppl r gonna see us right be for we hit them then we stealth for 3sec useless.Better gave us a new daily
So instead of being able to 1 shot ppl 100% of the times is not ok, but having a 45% chance to 1 shot them is ok? wtf.
A few things sprang to mind though about rogue feats, and I'm hoping that a DEV or someone who knows can answer:
I logged on with my rogue and just hit the test dummy. I have feats that prolong stealth also.
Saboteur Tree
1- Improved Cunning Sneak which improves stealth for 20% or 1 second doesn't do much in combat because of at-wills decreasing stealth time. Taking this feat would be pointless for PVE combat because that second is lost once you use at-wills. I guess it's still viable for extra "hide" time in PVP or PVE.
2- Feat - Cunning Stalker - 20% more action points while in stealth - Stealth is so short-lived now that I don't see this as a viable feat. Staying in stealth even with shadow strike and bait & switch is so short that I'm not sure how much benefit will be gained fro this feat.
3-Sneaky Stabber - Your Gloaming Cut (At-will) grants 10% of your stealth meter. Not sure how this works, didn't test it to be honest. I'm just unclear how there can be feat that increases stealth when using a specific at-will and at the same time have at-wills deplete stealth. Will this feat now cancel out the stealth drain?
4-Expert Sneak - 10% run speed in stealth and your at-will decrease the targets defense by 5%. First half is fine, but do you need to remain in stealth for the 5% debuff to trigger or will just taking this feat allow at-wills to lower a target's defense even if you're not in stealth. If you need to be in stealth, than this feat isn't that good.
5- Sneak of Shadows - 10% more damage while in stealth. Since stealth is so short lived, not very useful.
Executioner Tree
1- Brutal Backstab - 25% more crit severity while in stealth. Again,is stealth is so short lived, that how much of a bonus would this really be providing?
With the current changes on preview 5/11 feats for Saboteur are either useless or very, very weak compare to other trees. My question is if the the feats mentioned above will be re-worked to better synergize with the changes to stealth. To me, it only seems logical that if you are changing a class mechanic than modifiers (feats) to that mechanic must be changed also.
Thanks for reading - sorry it's so long (No that's what she said jokes)
"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future."
"Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught."
"Life is too important to be taken seriously.":)
Yea but we use our daily+stealth+with our Stongest Atk there is alot that goes in to it and if we don't kill we are at a really big Disadvantage. I been one shot form GF and GWF before, alot of ppl don't know about the Tenies thats why ppl are like wtf when they get one shoted
Quite simply, yes. I tested it and it felt like the skill didn't give enough stealth to make up for the drain.
In my opinion, Saboteur is pretty much done for if it's not reworked to compensate for these changes. But take that with a grain of salt since all of my experience is with Executioner and I only tested a pure stealth build on Preview for a few minutes.
But really, I can't even see Executioner being viable anymore since our ability to do damage hinges on the need to survive long enough to deal it. I didn't get a chance to test a Scoundrel build, but about 30-60 minutes of testing these horrid changes leaves me feeling like Rogue will require massive gearing to even be on par with what other classes can do with moderate gear now.
Perma stealth doesn't really become an issue until you incorporate the CoS spam so 1. isn't really necessary as long as 3. provides enough of a drain to make it a nuisance to even try to keep stealth up and do ranged damage. Plus 1 would render both the abilities you mentioned changing virtually useless.
As for 2, Lashing blade crit from stealth isn't the issue. It's the most powerful daily currently in game. Lurker's Assault. The current proposed nerf is a bit harsh to say the least. Perhaps halving its current potency and changing the damage increase to 10%, 20%, 30% for each level would be a better place to start. But Lurkers Assault as is, is too powerful and needs to be addressed. Not ignored.
no sir, this is on preview already which means out of closed testing, unless there is a terrible exploit this will go live. I am already planning on EQN maybe.... DDO has a new FR 3.5 edition coming out as well I believe.
I overall don't like the drain even if it were to be only applied to cloud of steel but it is understandable. I think the range on Cloud of Steel should go down to 45' - 50' instead of the drain so you're a bit closer to the target so they can try to find you or dodge away. Along with this change, increase cooldown in between charges .
I suggest stealth detection range should just be increased by about 5' - 10' (only against player). This forces you to be a bit more careful and have to spend more time avoiding people in stealth. If you want to backdoor, there are paths for you to take, you just can't take the direct route and stealth pass everyone. You also won't be able to walk directly at people and Lashing Blade them in the face.
This should fix the "I can't hit/CC what I can't see" issue and should make it more easier to counter plays from the TR.
Thanks for the constructive input.
However. perma stealth IS an issue.
Indulge me if you will. if these new changes goes live AS IS. You will see alot of perma stealth built TR just simply annoying pvp, just to prove a point/take revenge/etc.
I don't need to HIT you to win a point. i just need to SIT THERE in stealth and wait for your team mates who notice that one point being contested for so long to come running to your aid....and viola! My other teammates take the other 2 points while 3 of your team are just running around and around one point trying to "find" me.
My suggestions for 1 & 3 are to make a perma stealth build NOT VIABLE anymore in any instance, BUT at the same time, keeping the tr viable for every instance too.
If my changes are somehow accepted. Bait and switch will be a PVE skill, cos when you pop it, monsters are "TRICKED" thus taking attention of you for abit. Also it still serves to refill you ap bar.
Stealth strike will be a stealth extender instead of a stealth rejuvinator, to still maintain ABIT of dps for exec builds.(hey we have to give the *ahem* how do i put it politely...."Ppl calling for the nerf" Something)
COS, was never an issue in pve, and only because of the stealth build it became an issue in pvp, so....If it drains stealth, we won't see anymore crying, cos after 3 knives, the much hated stealth rogue becomes VISIBLE again and free for you to ream.
As for L.A. Let us keep in mind, it is a DAILY. Also lets us keep in mind TR have very slow ap regeneration. To up this via feats, u have to sacrifice damage wise. IF lashing blade is changed to not crit 100% of the time. It would be a fair skill. So now you will have the same odds of oneshotting someone as any other char. Meaning....Stealth+LA+LB If it's a normal hit, it hurts,(Same as Chill+roe+Ice knife) if it crits...YOU dead.(same as chill+roe+ice knife), same as knight challenge +that daily gf hit, same as Unstoppable+That downward slash extremely painful gwf hit.
Feel free to debate and let me know if i'm wrong in my theory?
It's always a sad day when one of the few voices of reason is left with no choice but to escape the insanity. Only because I have a RL friend who's begging me not to go do I even contemplate sticking around in this ****hole. I'm glad you found greener pastures and wish you well in your future adventures.
I also agree wholeheartedly about the comments with the other classes, if they can block/do damage/pin you/etc so well, for what seems like forever when you fight them, how is it unfair that I can be in stealth?
My main is a rogue, when I first made my wizard that was the first thing I noticed, the range on the attacks is tremendous in comparison.
I did just come upon a permanently stealthed rogue build today in PvP and it really really sucked, so I can understand the frustration with that character build. It's probably about the same frustration level that is achieved when you get tossed onto your back, repeatedly, then killed in one shot while you are lying there.
I'm not certain which of the 2 fighter classes it is that can do that, all I know is I have had that happen to me probably 1/2 of the time in PvP since I hit level 60, but I've only *ever* seen 1 of these "per-ma stealth" rogues.
(the other 1/2 of the time, the team I was on was actually winning, so what happens, all but one or two of the opposition quits, and if not that, then I am usually the only one left on my team and I get spawn camped and killed over and over, it's just not fun anymore)
Yes, I know... I must suck at playing. Thanks for telling me!
My friend. Please remeber the almost went thru BOP rules that went to preview, but due to logical and constructive back lash from the players...never made it to live.
I understand you are sad and fustrated. i am too. My initial posts on this subject were heated and raging in other threads. But after awhile i calmed down and decided to try the logical adult approach.
It can't hurt to try bro. SOME chance by trying, is better than NO chance by giving up.
See what you can do to contribute or support the suggestions. If this thread gets closed "they" win.
Lets give it a try till the end.
IF it goes live. I will take my own actions. Not so different from yours, but up till that point, i wanna know that i did ABSOLUTELY everything in my power to change this nerf.
This means that the rogue attacking from stealth will do less damage all around. Not just when using lurkers but any time a rogue attacks. Less damage from stealth means less damage out of stealth as well since there is nothing to counter balance the loss of stealth. A rogue out of stealth is a dead rogue. But there is nothing to increase it's survivablity outside stealth? Since the rogue will be out of stealth more if these changes go live.
This also impacts pve since the rogue fighting from stealth is where it's dps comes from. If at-wills reduce stealth meter then the rogue will not maintain it's stealth for as long, which ultimately reduces dps. This will mean much longer boss fights. Much longer trash fights. Longer dungeon runs for everyone.
All the class pvpers dont' care about how it's going to impact pve. Because they don't even bother to take the time to see what exactly is being used in pve and how a rogue functions in pve. All they care about is getting 1 shot once per match being too difficult of a thing to counter.
The devs are ruining the game by paying too much attention to unskilled pvpers.
1. A simple way that will stop Perma-Stealthing would be increasing Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike cool down by 2 or 3 seconds, with this they will not be able to do full rotations for refilling Stealth.
2. Another way would be making Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch not refill stealth 100%. This would definitely stop Perma-Stealthing.
Don't forget about solo players. I've taken to using my GF for soloing Foundry and Upper Vault farming simply because it's an absolute pain to play with TR if you don't have other people drawing away the mobs. When I do solo on TR, I have to make maximum use of my stealth and LA damage to keep from being swarmed. With these changes, high-level soloing will no longer be a challenging task but an impossibility now.
Excellent. The inventor him/herself.
Let him/her tell you.
WILL these changes make the tr UNABLE to go permastealth? I'm not talking about killing someone while in stealth. I'm talking about being ABLE to perma stealth and sit on an enemy point, or run through a dungeoun in stealth.
Lets hear it from the MAN/WOMAN HIM/HERSELF.
If my calculations are corret......WHAT FIX TO PERMA STEALTH???
Lurker's could have been made to actually break stealth when doing something that would normally break stealth (Impact Shot).
CoS could have been the only at-will to break stealth somewhat, as a TR in melee range is already detectable.
I really don't get the line of reasoning of the devs. It's like they just took the easy way out and did their utmost to avoid touching the things that really upsets the balance in the game, the uber-enchants. So excuse me for being somewhat cynical and assume the devs just cater to QQ and $$.
Pre-60 the game is actually pretty balanced imo, so the unbalancing part has to come somewhere after 60. The only thing that changes are the gear and enchantments. So why in the nine hells would they nerf base skills, when the problem is in the gear?
I think they completely missed the point. There is perma-stealth and there are one-hit-wonders. They are specced and played completely different, yet lumped in the same pool by most players, and now apparently by the devs too.
I agree that perma-stealth soloing a dungeon was not meant to happen. I agree that CoS from stealth was an issue, as it had 'no counter' according to many players. (Seems not many actually noticed the blue circle underneath their feet lighting up red whenever a stealthed attack hit, acting like a nice little radar ping towards the TR's location)
The thing that really worries me is how nerf after nerf is being applied, not just to TR's. Wasn't closed and open beta supposed to take care of most of the tweaking? Nerfing is never good, it upsets players and make the devs look like ... well.... something not so nice.
It's just too much nerf, on the skills that didn't need it, without addressing what's really wrong, gimping PvE for the sake of PvP.
It's just wrong.
edit:
Just thought of this, but this will most likely not stop the one-hit-wonders. Lurker's increasing crit-severity will still make an Executioner's Lashing hit for too much. I reckon a lot will try First Strike now.
If anything, my bet is we will see a lot more oneshot kills, either the target the TR wanted to hit, or the TR when he fails in that.
Solution 1. Brilliant.
But I have an inkling that there is a different agenda. We just assume that permastealth is the motivator.. but do we really know?
and... if we do not know what the problem is how can we brainstorm a solution?
I can counter it and effectively... I use an original hybrid build that keeps my DPS and gives me the versatility to counter stealth build rogues in PvP