12.2k Rogue, Nevermore@meeggtoast
Dragon Shard since Played since may 2013.
Its not balanced at all it really just drastically reduced rogue's single target pve damage, unstoppable gwf can catch up in single target dps with the nerf stealth + lurker's nerf.
In regards to permastealth, I was doing similar to what permastealth rogues are in PvE long before someone posted for PvP. I just didnt think the damage was viable for PvP. PvE permastealth benefits from the 25% crit severity so much(full swash with 2k recov should get u 80% of the time permastealthed) I dont think its that broken, its prob just a reworking bait and switch giving the bait more aggro in a larger area and doesnt replenish stealth. I don't think its a bugged build, i think its just that its poor testing was done. Just the fact that cws alone gets a 4th encounter with "Benefits" is outright makes them op.
In regards to Tene pvp. Anyone with tenes in pvp spam is op, i dont care if ur rogue or cw, if i got 7 gtenes, ur gonna die. High leveled competitive permastealth rogues are less than 1% of the rogues so no one gives a dang u spent 20m on ur rogue while lower geared people in pvp spent only 100k AD. thats a gear problem nothing more to see.
Lurkers need a rework for PvE, not a significant nerf to make it useless. That said i think the current nerf is over the top. If it is 5 seconds for 60% damage, sure... i can take that but just the fact that in the test shard the difference between lurker's and non lurker's dps boost is less than 15% if u have 50% crit.
Lurker's in pvp is really broken, likewise any other daily for pvp, Perma prone gwf(crescendo), instagib iceknife, hammer of annoyance, impossible to stop divine armor at mid, aoe slam slow, shocking execution etc. Shouldnt be a nerf, but people complain too much now rogues shouldn't use anything but shocking.
Patch just makes rogues unplayable in terms of survivablity
If live patch goes through I don't see myself playing on my rogue at all unless guildies really want a rogue, i'm prob just going to use his 20 leatherworking and 20 leadership to make more money. I have a 13.2k+stone GWF ready for next patch. Guild also have run CN same speed without rogues, also done couple of dds without rogues. Tbh I don't see a point to rogues at all for next patch with any kind of nerfs hit in. GWF can run the first run and run to draco, couple of gwfs in guild already can do it, its not hard to learn.
3 GWF spellplague, clears faster without any rogues
Cleared in 20 min previous run 7min on boss.
TLR
If you play Rogues for making AD, or u want to top dps in dungeon or ur the guy who likes to carry in dungeons. Please reroll.
If you like burning more pots than GWF, or enjoy the rogue game playstyle, or your just oblivious to the nerf.
Please keep supporting rogues. I still like my rogue but just the fact that theres no synergy of the skills for the rogue makes me want to retire rogue.
Thebriman - Community Mod
Hi all,
As I have said before, I have serious concerns over the proposed patch. I make no claims to being one of the “high status” rogues, but I have been playing a rogue as my main since open beta began. I’ve been 60 for some time, and have a gear score that fluctuates between 10.7k and 11.2k depending on my current spec.
The change to CoS doesn’t bother me, and in fact seems a decent way to impose limits on PVP permastealth, if that is indeed the developers’ goal.
The Lurker’s and DF changes seem far too heavy handed. I’m not much of a theorycrafter, and I haven’t crunched the numbers on the test shard, but I suspect these changes will leave us no better than other classes at single target damage. Which seems wrong, considering that we are supposedly the only class in the game that is focused on single target damage. We can’t tank or heal, and our AoE is the worst of all the classes.
But the change that has me most troubled is the idea of at-wills depleting stealth. This completely changes the concept of the class. It almost seems like the developers are trying to do away with any builds that are focused primarily on stealth. Given that this is our basic class mechanic, and so many of our feats are based around stealth, I think it leaves us with a bit of an identity crisis.
Who are rogues if this patch goes through? What is our role? Are we single target DPS specialists? Doubtful, since other classes will be able to do as much or more damage. Are we for those who like a stealth-based play-style? Not really, if they’re trying to prevent stealth-based builds. What do we excel in, if these changes go through? I fear that the only thing that will make a rogue unique is our ability to find and disarm a few completely non-threatening traps.
By the way, OP, I have edited out your comment regarding moderators. I think a thread of constructive feedback specifically from people who have played rogues is appropriate and can be productive and useful to the developers. But it’s against RoC to discuss Moderator actions in the forums. Also, please keep in mind that all of us who are moderators are just individuals who play the game ourselves and have our own widely-varying views. Just because one moderator feels a particular way on an issue, does not mean that we all feel that way.
Sorry for the wall of text.
DR/TL: I don’t like the changes and please don’t trash the mods
Yerune - Veteran Rogue
Won't consider myself a veteran, but I reckon I'm part of the vocal minority I played a TR since the start of open beta, and have the other 4 classes in at least pvp gear bought with my own glory, that should count as something.
I do agree the TR could use some tweaking, even some nerfs, but definitely not to this extent. Folks more knowledgeable than me have done the numbers, and it's not looking good.
CoS works great on people who won't dodge. Folks that do dodge, use line of sight or simply don't panic and seek the TR to give him a good pounding are not worried by it in the least. Hells, any time that blue circle at my feet lights up a TR is about to die. (allright, a bit over the top, gotta have my epeen in order, but the first few hits really do little damage WITHOUT uberenchants of course)
TR's have the slowest AP generation in the game, so I'd say it was a decent trade-off to have some pretty powerful dailies. The nerf to Shocking Execution didn't bother me too much, I reckon it became more of what it was intended to be: a finishing move on already weakened targets. But neutering LA the way they intend is just way too much.
But what's really bothering me about their proposed plans, is that it shows the line of reasoning they use. If something is considered OP, it gets nerfed.
Nerfing is never a good thing. People don't like to have their time and investment taken away because other people think they're too strong. Buffing is a good thing, people like to get buffed.
But the devs have only been nerfing, with the occasional fix to get things working as intended. This is not building on the game, this is taking away from the game, and it seems this will be their default reaction. That's what's worrying, that they are actually willing and planning to nerf core-mechanics instead of using buffs to get the game back on track.
It's not a TR thing, any class will be considered OP one time or another, and if this goes on, every class will be nerfed to the ground. Rinse and repeat. This is not a good thing.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Their opinions were already expressed in their posts. There's no point in you quoting them and giving them some sort of title or pointing out their community mods (aka forum hall monitors). It doesn't give their opinions any more or less relevance...
Their opinions were already expressed in their posts. There's no point in you quoting them and giving them some sort of title or pointing out their community mods (aka forum hall monitors). It doesn't give their opinions any more or less relevance...
Especially when one of those awarded the arbitrary title of veteran starts off by claiming not to be a veteran.
Our voices and logic have been heard. Thank you all. Logic and reason has won the day. Lets get back in game and test these new changes out. Does seem fair to me.
Adios amigos!^__^
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
Their opinions were already expressed in their posts. There's no point in you quoting them and giving them some sort of title or pointing out their community mods (aka forum hall monitors). It doesn't give their opinions any more or less relevance...
Interesting perspective, I will take it into consideration
I don't think you're that reasonable when you you think perma-stealth is retarted after the many, many threads here telling you exactly why it isn't. It isn't invisibility, it isn't invincibility, TR's can be knocked out of stealth and still be seen while in stealth.
Your whole point of perma-stealth is just moot, based on false premises and biased opinions, and quite frankly, it's just annoying to keep rectifying blatant ignorant statements of people who don't want to read, don't want to learn their's and other's classes, but rather just rage at the forum and cry nerf everytime they got a can of whoopass.
Of course it's never your fault you got beat to a pulp, right...and as always the 'fix' is a nerf of whatever is bothering you.
Sorry dude, deliberate ignorance cannot be fixed with a nerf.
A lot of complainers that think perma-stealth is unreasonable don't get it either. It's exactly as you say, when you're close enough to a stealthed TR you will see him, if you do AoE damage or just got lucky swinging your sword, you will see him. If the TR attacks (granted, not so much with CoS) you will see him.
It's really baffling to see how some people just want to stick with that 'perma-stealth UBER!!' jig while they should know that perma-stealth is in no way what they are describing.
Ah well, some people just enjoy deliberate ignorance I guess, makes them better whiners.
It's like people just don't want to read, only keep on pushing their own opinions through.
How many times do these guys actually have to read that you can see TR's in stealth before they realize perma-stealth isn't that much of a deal?
Barking up the wrong tree folks, and making a mess of it.
Yerune - Veteran Flip Flopper?
I do agree the TR could use some tweaking, even some nerfs, but definitely not to this extent. Folks more knowledgeable than me have done the numbers, and it's not looking good.
But I still think perma-stealth, by itself, is not a problem, never flopped on that.
Wasn't too difficult. And I don't believe any of the threads were ever complaints of "OMG TR went permastealth and then I never saw or heard from him again." So nice attempt to save face...
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t3hwh173f0xMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But I still think perma-stealth, by itself, is not a problem, never flopped on that.
Perma-stealth by itself is not a problem (although it is an exploit of the mechanic), moreover perma-stealth + greater tenenbrous enchantments is a problem. One of the 2 have to go and it seems a lot easier to fix the perma-stealth aspect of it. Furthermore tenebrous enchantments sell lockbox keys, so I highly doubt that they will feel the wrath of the nerf bat.
I felt this needed another thread. The Rogue nerfs are ludicrous. The class is already nerfed into the ground. Half the time GWFs and CWs out damage Rogues in Dungeons since the earlier nerf. The Striker is now wimpy.
This newest set of nerfs is gamebreaking. Stop it! Stop breaking the game and start fixing it:mad:.
Totally agree, nerfing lurker assault, goodbye DPS on boss, and the class is ruined! And you will lose a player for sure...me, and others will follow me!
I'm a PvE executioner rogue, and I'm mad as hell about this.
I just got my rogue to 60, I spent a good chunk of change gearing him up, and I got my build right where I wanted it as a balance between damage and survivability. I don't feel overpowered, I'm a glass cannon with little margin of error, and I'm happy with that. It reminds me of my old EQ mage, high risk/reward gameplay rewarding careful tactics and punishing mistakes hard. I've been having fun.
And now the rug is about to be pulled out from under me, due to a bunch of vocal PvP whiners who don't even understand the rogue class and its abilities.
I've been playing MMOs since they were MUDs (yes, really) and I've seen a hell of a lot of nerfs and whining over said nerfs. I've been nerfed before, I'm used to it, and I'm usually OK with it if it makes sense and I can carry on. But I don't think I've ever seen the nerf bat swung this hard in one patch. Do the devs even understand how extreme this nerf is?
The part that really makes me want to scream is that the nerfs aren't even the right ones. Perma-stealth is still perfectly doable! One-shot kills in PvP are still doable! Meanwhile, PvE is completely destroyed, for ALL builds. Have the devs even looked at the rogue abilities and noticed how many have a "while in stealth" component? I mean, they designed the class, don't they have a clue about how important stealth is for our class? They made us that way, and now they are going to destroy stealth as a survivability/damage tool in PvE, while leaving PvP rogues with the ability to permastealth. Fail much?
I'm all for a permastealth nerf, we don't need to stay in stealth like that, but we DO need stealth to actually, like, play our class, since the class was designed to rely on stealth. Limit stealth? Sure, go ahead. Make it so attacking destroys stealth, when our attacks depend on stealth? Stupid.
And, damage? We're the main single-target DPS class, damage is kind of important for us, it's pretty much all we have to offer. And our damage keeps getting nerfed; with these changes we'll be virtually useless. We will have no decent dailies left, we'll have to resort to Whirlwind of Blades and Bloodbath, situational at best, and I guess we can expect those to be nerfed too once we start using them. Hell, I built my rogue to gain AP and take advantage of dailies, and now it's getting to the point where I'll have no dailies to make AP worth even having.
This isn't just a nerf, it's the destruction of the rogue class in PvE, all builds. The only thing rogues will still be able to do well is PvP, which is mind-blowing considering that this whole mess was an attempt to appease PvP whiners. Other than the CoS nerf (which I don't like because I use CoS a lot in PvE, but I understand the reason, though people could learn to dodge), these nerfs are unjustified and make no sense at all.
I've spent a good deal of cash on this game, more than I intended to, but I won't be spending another dime if these changes go live. At this point I just don't even want to play, I'll log in once a day to get the coin but I do not want to invest any more time or money into this game at this point: if this is how things are going to be handled then it looks like a bad investment. It's too bad, the game is fun and I was enjoying it, but at this point I feel like I've been screwed by investing time and money into a game that is about to completely destroy my main.
Ask yourself this question, who in their right mind is going to invest time and money into building a character, when the whole thing can be destroyed out of the blue for no good reason? Even if I make an alt, who knows what class will be next? I was only willing to spend money on this game because I thought that I was investing in things I could, you know, actually enjoy for a while. Now I've spent all this time and money on stuff that is about to be made worthless with one patch.
Perma-stealth by itself is not a problem (although it is an exploit of the mechanic)
Permastealth is not an exploit. If it was an exploit it would have been made impossible during the TR revision, and it wasn't, even when the stealth leech was being tested.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Totally agree, nerfing lurker assault, goodbye DPS on boss, and the class is ruined! And you will lose a player for sure...me, and others will follow me!
P.S. i dont have permastealth build
I have spent more than 100
I feel exactly like that!
I'm so glad to see people rage quit the game over having abilities that needed a nerf, nerfed, since they rely on them in order to feel effective. I could still top the dps charts the majority of dungeon runs without using a daily on my TR. I will miss the easy kills they always offer in PvP though.
The problem is they're drastically stripping the TR of its Strengths and overall defining features, to the point where the feasibility of the class comes into question.
There are many solutions to the current problem which won't do any major harm ranging from a simple fix like adding to cooldows of certain skills to break undesired skill rotations to complex fixes like redesigning Powers and Feats to add diversity to the class rousing interest in players.
In the end its not in our hands. We can only wait and see.
As for people who want to quit the game, they should do so. If people feel they have better things to do, they should go ahead and do those instead. No one is forcing them to do anything least of all play this game. If the game is good they won't quit.
I'm currently underwhelmed with my newly rolled TR, though I'm not deterred by the coming changes. I enjoyed playing the CW I rolled more, since it had more diversity and wished I haven't scrapped it, the Powers are feasible regardless of focus in Feats and build but CW just wasn't me.
I think they did a good job with this game overall. Hoping they don't break it.
If the ability of rogues to one shot squichies is the problem:
I am a perma stealth rogue (eccept that I use sly flourish and not gloaming cut) and I was one shot too. Then I realize that if I just replace some damage for more HP I won't be one shot anymore. I did it and am never one shot now.
What's the other class who can be one shot? CW. That's also the other class that can one shot rogues and CW. Why not just let them remove some offense slots for defense slots like I did instead of hear them crying on forum. They really do enough damage
and they can denie perma stealth with aoe and bumps.
I have one of the strongest lashing blade:
-lurker assault, first strike, invisible infiltrator, greater vorpal, +25% crit severity feat. There is some cw that I can't one shot, they don't need to dodge or deflect.
When I face a good stuffed cw if he dodge good, I can't kill him without out of stealth and he can kill me, In this 1v1 it's just the best dodger who win.
But if u still wanna nerf lurker assault like you are planning to do it: 15/20/25% dmge instead of 20/40/60 and + 3 sec. At least remove this bug which make u loose your daily if u reach 0% stealth or if u are under any CC eccept slow. Or u will just see all rogues being executioner and using schoking execution. so instead of one shot ppls, rogues will lashing blade then schocking execution, 2 shot a guy then have +10% crit and severity for some seconds... That's a 2 shot but who can't be dodge... And that's a bonus dmge that u won't loose if u run out of stealth or if u are stun.
If cloud of steel is the problem:
I agree cloud of steel is cheated... Because of 7 greater or normal tenebrous. Because many hits, many chance to proc. So which class is not cheated with 7 greater tenebrous? (shall I speak about the sent build with 37k+ hp, 40% dmge resistance, 40%+ deflect and tones of regen?)
Without tenebrous the only things who hearts with cloud of steel are the 2/4 last hits. remove this 4 last stacks and u have a useless skill. AND u nerf scoundrel tree and the +2.5% per stack of the feat mocking knave.
What will happen with your incoming nerf is 100% exectutioner rogues all using the same encounters...
If perma stealth is the problem:
When I face an other perma stealth rogue I switch one of my encounter for path of the blade. which class can't hit with aoe/bump an invisible target, u force the perma stealth rogue to use tenacious concealment for the cost of a lot of dmge. He wil probably not be able to kill in time.
-If bait and switch does not refill ur stealth meter, just delete it. Btw ur dummy does not look like you if u wear an armor or clothes, u have to wear only lvl 1 pants for make your dummy looks like you. But dummies can't one shot ppls, so I guess no changes about this will come.
-If shadow strike does not refill stealth meter just delete rogues. There is no trees, no nothing where to hide waiting for the stealth meter to come back on your maps. Am not gonna show me without being in close combat when cw can hit me from the other side of the map.
Peoples are surely crying after rogues because they have more than offten the more kills in PvP. But this is rogue job to finish ppls. Maybe increase the points coming from cap and decrease the points coming from a kill will fix it and stop tears.
ATM the only real thing imbalance in this game are this gwfs following all the same sent build stacking enough defensive stats for being more tanky than all gf. No need to speak about tenebrous. No need to kill in this game if a GWF can tank 4/5 ppls enough time for make his friends come back from death or from capping an other tower; the game is over.
It's me again, sorry for this long post ^^. But i can add an other thing :
I have almost 29K hp and 18% dmge resistance, and I was just one shot by a CW. Even if I heard the sound of his incoming daily, I could not dodge because I was out of stamina. guess what I don't cry, for me it's my fault. I took the daily and the tenebrous procs in my face because I did not dodge in time. That's the best part of the game in my opinion, if you sux u die. Stop listening bad players crying after rogues. Just find a way to nerf sweetly gwf sentinel build and your game will be pretty balanced.
Comments
Thebriman - Community Mod
Yerune - Veteran Rogue
Their opinions were already expressed in their posts. There's no point in you quoting them and giving them some sort of title or pointing out their community mods (aka forum hall monitors). It doesn't give their opinions any more or less relevance...
Especially when one of those awarded the arbitrary title of veteran starts off by claiming not to be a veteran.
Adios amigos!^__^
Interesting perspective, I will take it into consideration
Heh, yeah, that was kinda awkward
I do get it though, lots of posts with good info got closed alongside the thread. And it strokes my epeen somebody thought my post was one of those
Yerune - Veteran Flip Flopper?
:cool:
Seems like you put some work into it
But I still think perma-stealth, by itself, is not a problem, never flopped on that.
Wasn't too difficult. And I don't believe any of the threads were ever complaints of "OMG TR went permastealth and then I never saw or heard from him again." So nice attempt to save face...
Perma-stealth by itself is not a problem (although it is an exploit of the mechanic), moreover perma-stealth + greater tenenbrous enchantments is a problem. One of the 2 have to go and it seems a lot easier to fix the perma-stealth aspect of it. Furthermore tenebrous enchantments sell lockbox keys, so I highly doubt that they will feel the wrath of the nerf bat.
Totally agree, nerfing lurker assault, goodbye DPS on boss, and the class is ruined! And you will lose a player for sure...me, and others will follow me!
P.S. i dont have permastealth build
I have spent more than 100
I feel exactly like that!
Permastealth is not an exploit. If it was an exploit it would have been made impossible during the TR revision, and it wasn't, even when the stealth leech was being tested.
I'm so glad to see people rage quit the game over having abilities that needed a nerf, nerfed, since they rely on them in order to feel effective. I could still top the dps charts the majority of dungeon runs without using a daily on my TR. I will miss the easy kills they always offer in PvP though.
There are many solutions to the current problem which won't do any major harm ranging from a simple fix like adding to cooldows of certain skills to break undesired skill rotations to complex fixes like redesigning Powers and Feats to add diversity to the class rousing interest in players.
In the end its not in our hands. We can only wait and see.
As for people who want to quit the game, they should do so. If people feel they have better things to do, they should go ahead and do those instead. No one is forcing them to do anything least of all play this game. If the game is good they won't quit.
I'm currently underwhelmed with my newly rolled TR, though I'm not deterred by the coming changes. I enjoyed playing the CW I rolled more, since it had more diversity and wished I haven't scrapped it, the Powers are feasible regardless of focus in Feats and build but CW just wasn't me.
I think they did a good job with this game overall. Hoping they don't break it.
I am a perma stealth rogue (eccept that I use sly flourish and not gloaming cut) and I was one shot too. Then I realize that if I just replace some damage for more HP I won't be one shot anymore. I did it and am never one shot now.
What's the other class who can be one shot? CW. That's also the other class that can one shot rogues and CW. Why not just let them remove some offense slots for defense slots like I did instead of hear them crying on forum. They really do enough damage
and they can denie perma stealth with aoe and bumps.
I have one of the strongest lashing blade:
-lurker assault, first strike, invisible infiltrator, greater vorpal, +25% crit severity feat. There is some cw that I can't one shot, they don't need to dodge or deflect.
When I face a good stuffed cw if he dodge good, I can't kill him without out of stealth and he can kill me, In this 1v1 it's just the best dodger who win.
But if u still wanna nerf lurker assault like you are planning to do it: 15/20/25% dmge instead of 20/40/60 and + 3 sec. At least remove this bug which make u loose your daily if u reach 0% stealth or if u are under any CC eccept slow. Or u will just see all rogues being executioner and using schoking execution. so instead of one shot ppls, rogues will lashing blade then schocking execution, 2 shot a guy then have +10% crit and severity for some seconds... That's a 2 shot but who can't be dodge... And that's a bonus dmge that u won't loose if u run out of stealth or if u are stun.
If cloud of steel is the problem:
I agree cloud of steel is cheated... Because of 7 greater or normal tenebrous. Because many hits, many chance to proc. So which class is not cheated with 7 greater tenebrous? (shall I speak about the sent build with 37k+ hp, 40% dmge resistance, 40%+ deflect and tones of regen?)
Without tenebrous the only things who hearts with cloud of steel are the 2/4 last hits. remove this 4 last stacks and u have a useless skill. AND u nerf scoundrel tree and the +2.5% per stack of the feat mocking knave.
What will happen with your incoming nerf is 100% exectutioner rogues all using the same encounters...
If perma stealth is the problem:
When I face an other perma stealth rogue I switch one of my encounter for path of the blade. which class can't hit with aoe/bump an invisible target, u force the perma stealth rogue to use tenacious concealment for the cost of a lot of dmge. He wil probably not be able to kill in time.
-If bait and switch does not refill ur stealth meter, just delete it. Btw ur dummy does not look like you if u wear an armor or clothes, u have to wear only lvl 1 pants for make your dummy looks like you. But dummies can't one shot ppls, so I guess no changes about this will come.
-If shadow strike does not refill stealth meter just delete rogues. There is no trees, no nothing where to hide waiting for the stealth meter to come back on your maps. Am not gonna show me without being in close combat when cw can hit me from the other side of the map.
Peoples are surely crying after rogues because they have more than offten the more kills in PvP. But this is rogue job to finish ppls. Maybe increase the points coming from cap and decrease the points coming from a kill will fix it and stop tears.
ATM the only real thing imbalance in this game are this gwfs following all the same sent build stacking enough defensive stats for being more tanky than all gf. No need to speak about tenebrous. No need to kill in this game if a GWF can tank 4/5 ppls enough time for make his friends come back from death or from capping an other tower; the game is over.
I have almost 29K hp and 18% dmge resistance, and I was just one shot by a CW. Even if I heard the sound of his incoming daily, I could not dodge because I was out of stamina. guess what I don't cry, for me it's my fault. I took the daily and the tenebrous procs in my face because I did not dodge in time. That's the best part of the game in my opinion, if you sux u die. Stop listening bad players crying after rogues. Just find a way to nerf sweetly gwf sentinel build and your game will be pretty balanced.