I wanted rage on the patch notes thread, but it is closed so I'll rage here. Nerf our LA...o.k. fine I can deal with that. Nerf my bleed fine it'll just take longer to kill some things. Take 4 of my daggers away no big deal I can get over it.
At wills now deplete stealth meter...WTF are you thinking stealth is our bread and butter if this nerf goes live you can pretty much kiss pve as a rogue good bye. Everything will be harder, soloing? Will we even be able to solo foundry missions? Stealth is what keeps us alive in pve, and now we can't even get off one flurry. I went on the test server and it is obvious that they just don't want us playing a rogue anymore. That is what will happen if this goes live rogues will just quit and make a gwf.
WTF is the point of having gear that has + % to stealth bonus if we can't even stay in stealth? Not to mention our feats that uses stealth or gives us more damage while stealth, with the patch both of these will be useless. The sad thing is this nerf seems like it is for pvp...PVP again WTF!!! This will not stop rogues from owning pvp and we'll eventually get no stealth at all. I mean really have the devs even tested this out? Oh no that's what we are for, well we've tested it and it is not cool...Not cool at all.
If this patch does go live, then I'll just retire my rogue and go play an op gwf instead, except for pvp I'll jump in there just to make more people cry and see if they eventually take our stealth away completely.
I wanted rage on the patch notes thread, but it is closed so I'll rage here.
<snip rage>
End rage.
I think you have the wrong thread, this is the thread for suggestions instead of raging. Whilst what you say is correct it's already been said a hundred times.
Thats what happens when people abuse/exploit a clearly non intended game mechanic. Rogues were obviously not meant to be able to perma-stealth, so the increasing popularity of such builds in both pvp/pve(xploit) was asking for the nerf bat.
If TR weren't supposed to be able to permastealth, why did the developers provide them with the tools to permastealth? This is in no way an exploit, and never was. It is simply using the tools the developers designed as they were meant to be used.
Now, they may not have anticipated how permastealth would affect this game as well as they could have, and it appears data over time has shown them that stealth is more efficient than they wish it to be, which would explain the proposed changes.
Don't try to make an exploit or abuse issue out of players simply using the tools provided to them, as they were designed to be used. If it were an issue of exploitative abuse, players would have been penalized in addition to revisions to stealth.
Again, Cryptic did nothing to curtail permastealthers. That's what this whole thread was about in the first place.
Yes they did. They made it harder to maintain permastealth, due to the stealth bleed of at-wills. This requires the permastealth Rogue to make more sacrifices than previously to attain permastealth, which ends out being a greater damage sacrifice.
As of yet, though, they have not made permastealth impossible.
well this may prevent tr permastealth in pve, but i dont think many TR wanna permastealth in pve, they just wanna stealth! And it does no good to pvp since the only wayto perma stealth now is to roaming the battle field like a bot in stealth and probably kill one or two with it. which does no contribution to the group!
Im more agree with nerfing bait and switch or shadow strike, I also agree the nerfing of rogue means to increase the role of GWF in pve, so i may be ok with the LA nerf although i still think that is too much. but I really cant understand nerfing the core mechanism of the rogue-stealth. if so a TR could barely use the 5 second stealth to get into position,unless the creator want us all use the same skill like shadow strike; and cant use stealth to attack; also cant use stealth to get away much because of being attacked. then what is stealth for?
Actually I also think the responsible thing to do is to buff other classes to counter the problems instead of nerfing TR, but then i get it, buffing all clearly needs more work then nerfing one. so I really dont have anything to say, other than maybe make CoS the only skill that drains stealth, ok thats been said so no, I really dont have anything to say now- -
WOOOHOO there is a hidden 8% boost to non crit damage if you look back a few pages. Yay!!!!!! this might make some of the lesser used rogue powers and builds not reliant of crit more viable woooooo! break out the party popers. no im not being sarcastic here. This is good news.
Also its obvious they aren't trying to nerf perma stealth they are nerfing the crit heavy executioner builds. and the stealth-crit hybrids because a lot of the crit builds still used stealth for extra boosts.
Heck this nerf was probably not even prompted by pvp it was probably a similar response to the cleric AS nerf. theyhave their datamining tools seek out any abnormal patterns saw 1-3 powers Everyone had with completely different builds...both pvp and pve...something was wrong with the fabric of space.
if this is the case I am a bit worried for my CW singularity and MM as well as any other power EVERYONE uses because its so cool.
Stealth seems to be causing a great many problems in game play. As such, I suggest that stealth mechanics be replaced by new trickery mechanics that replace the ability to go invisible with the ability to gain and use tricks in combat, via a new Trick System.
Trick System
Each Rogue, at level 10, gains Deception which grants them the ability to use Trickery. The Rogue has three Tricks (which replace the stealth bar). Each of these Tricks start as unusable, but using certain powers grant the Rogue the ability to use one Trick. To do so, he hits the Tab key and enters into Trickery. While in Trickery he has combat advantage up to and including the use of one Trick, and then he no longer is in Trickery and thus no longer has combat advantage from this ability.
The powers that grant a Trick when used in normal mode are: Lashing Blade, Bait and Switch, Path of the Blade, Impossible to Catch, Shadow Strike and Smoke Bomb. All powers cost a Trick when used from Trickery.
Due to the removal of stealth and the stealth bar, the abilities, feats and powers that currently interact with stealth have to be changed to reflect the Trick System. Changes are shown below:
Class Abilities
Sneak Attack: Increase your Run Speed by 10/20/30% when using Trickery.
Deception: Trickery: You have Combat Advantage and your encounter powers gain new effects.
Class Features
Tenacious Concealment: Increases AC by +1/+2/+3 and your Deflection Chance by 1/2/3%.
Invisible Infiltrator: After using a daily, you get a Trick and a 5% damage bonus for 5 seconds.
At Wills
Gloaming Cut: A shadowy strike that has a 15% chance of giving you a Trick if you kill your target with it.
Encounters
The following powers grant you a Trick when used normally. Like all other powers, they cost you a Trick when used with Trickery:
Lashing Blade, Bait and Switch, Path of the Blade, Impossible to Catch, Shadow Strike, and Smoke Bomb.
Dailies
Lurkers Assault: Lurk through the Shadowfell, dealing 10/20/30% extra damage. When activated you are granted a Trick.
Heroic Feats
Cunning Ambusher: You deal 2/4/6% damage for 6 seconds after doing a Trick.
Twilight Adept: When you dodge you have a 2/4/6/8/10% chance of getting a Trick.
Improved Cunning: Your cunning makes you harder to hit, giving you +1/+2/+3/+4/+5 AC.
Saboteur Feats
Cunning Stalker: When using a Trick, you build 6/12/18/24/30% more Action Points.
Sneaky Stabber: Your Gloaming Cut now has a 1/2/3/4/5% chance of giving you a Trick.
Expert Sneak: When using Trickery, you gain 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed. Your first At Will attack will reduce your targets next attack by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Sneak of Shadows: Your damaging abilities do 2/4/6/8/10% more damage when using Trickery.
Unerring Ambush: Deft Strike, Dazing Strike, and Blitz do 4/8/12/16/20% more damage when using Trickery.
Ruthless Efficiency: You get an additional Trick pip.
Scoundrel Feats
Whirlwind Sneak Attack: For 10 seconds after using a Trick, the first time you hit with an encounter power it will deal 15% extra damage.
Execution Feats
Brutal Backstab: When using a Trick, you critical with 5/10/15/20/25% more severity.
Equipment
Any set bonus that currently increases the stealth bar now instead grants one extra Trick pip.
X
X
Please note that all the numbers given above are simply for the purposes of illustration to help discussion, rather than a deceleration of what these figures should be if this or a similar system was implemented instead of a stealth system.
Also, there could be other changes made to the Rogue in addition to the Trick System, such as granting them more hit points to make up for the survivability lost due to no longer having stealth.
This is essentially a very early draft of what is a very different concept for Rogues, but I thought some might find it interesting to think and talk about.
Stealth seems to be causing a great many problems in game play. As such, I suggest that stealth mechanics be replaced by new trickery mechanics that replace the ability to go invisible with the ability to gain and use tricks in combat, via a new Trick System....
So how does that address the serious survivability problems rogues will have in PvE without stealth?
Also, do I read it right that "trickery" just gives combat advantage? That's kinda useless, as any well-played rogue is going to have combat advantage in PvE most of the time anyway due to positioning.
When we start talking about completely removing the core mechanic of a class, do you think that the nerf-calling has gone far enough?
So how does that address the serious survivability problems rogues will have in PvE without stealth?
Also, do I read it right that "trickery" just gives combat advantage? That's kinda useless, as any well-played rogue is going to have combat advantage in PvE most of the time anyway due to positioning.
When we start talking about completely removing the core mechanic of a class, do you think that the nerf-calling has gone far enough?
Trickery gives combat advantage and access to the forms of attacks that are now given by being in stealth.
I did mention that other measures may need to be taken to increase Rogue durability due to losing stealth without suggesting any specifics. So, I didn't address it, but left it open to discussion. Perhaps you could suggest something to enhance their durability in lieu of stealth.
Trickery duplicates many of the abilities of the class. They are simply accessed in a different way, due to the removal of stealth. Essentially all that is happening is the stealth aspect is being replaced.
This isn't presented as a nerf but as a re-imagining of the TR class that removes the stealth component but still has the class able to be quite tricky in combat through a different mechanic.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
it is too much dmg, I estimate that a good TR can do 100% or more dmg to single target, FH boss without mobs, than GWF (both with with tier 2 equip with tier 5 enchantments, full dmg, normal vorpals and allure), of course TR should do more single target dmg, but not that much.
Except that that's all the rogue is there for, single target damage. The gwf can survive AND hit multiple targets. In the end, it doesn't end up being 100% more damage done by the rogue, because of the single target style. Against a geared gwf, on a single target, of course the rogue will own it.
Essentially all that is happening is the stealth aspect is being replaced.
I get that, but that's not such a small deal. That's basically removing the TR class and replacing it with something else. I can't believe we are even discussing this.
Trickery gives combat advantage and access to the forms of attacks that are now given by being in stealth.
I did mention that other measures may need to be taken to increase Rogue durability due to losing stealth without suggesting any specifics. So, I didn't address it, but left it open to discussion. Perhaps you could suggest something to enhance their durability in lieu of stealth.
Trickery duplicates many of the abilities of the class. They are simply accessed in a different way, due to the removal of stealth. Essentially all that is happening is the stealth aspect is being replaced.
This isn't presented as a nerf but as a re-imagining of the TR class that removes the stealth component but still has the class able to be quite tricky in combat through a different mechanic.
It is tons of work. Developers won't do that. It is the amount of work equal to making new content.
They will just nerf or make some fine tuning. Later down the pipe when TR are outsiders.
It is tons of work. Developers won't do that. It is the amount of work equal to making new content.
They will just nerf or make some fine tuning. Later down the pipe when TR are outsiders.
It is a lot of work. It's also a lot of work to get stealth working just right, so that it is useful without being overpowering. I don't know which of the two is more work.
I get that, but that's not such a small deal. That's basically removing the TR class and replacing it with something else. I can't believe we are even discussing this.
Well, it removes stealth from the TR class. It does however keep the tricks. It is called, after all, the Trickster Rogue, so my suggestion is class related. I don't see why discussion along these lines should result in disbelief.
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
edited July 2013
Ok, I've played 3 Classes (GF, CW, TR) to 60 and this Nerf will 'destroy' the TR completely. My questions is why?
If the problem is TR's one shotting peeps in PvP then I would ask why do they not have a soulshard? Is PvP the main focus of this game? The mechanic in this game is working as intended, if you nerf it for a third time they are going to be useless when measured against CW's who dominate PvE and GWF's who are dominating PvP. Rogues are supposed to be a DPS class and by taking away stealth and Lurkers you are completely destroying their DPS mechanic. Yes they do good one shot damage in PvP but that's pretty much it. I've been ruled by GWF's and GF's who know how to play their class. It's a skill game and players with no skill are gonna wine on the forums.
TR stealth rogues are not that powerful in their own right, what makes them powerful is the tier 2 PvP set (25% stealth increase) and stacking tenebrous enchantments (increases crit severity) with the PvP set and HP Enchantments. So instead of nerfing the class into oblivion and losing a third of your player base why not just nerf the STACKING on tenebrous enchantments? Oh, you'd lose money on selling keys in this pay to win scheme of Nightmare boxes? Your going to lose money anyway when you lose a third of your base with this massive nerf. Also if you check you numbers in PvP GWF's are hands down the most powerful! They are two shotting just about everyone and are virtually unstoppable once geared correctly. I've seen them hold a point against 3 and 4 players and actually win out. Now thats OP.
If your nerfing the class just to usher in Rangers then I'm out. I can't afford this scheme and I've probably spent 350 on this game already. I personally hate nerfs. Your player base is what it is now because people enjoy the game. When you make changes you will impact a portion of the player base that doesn't pay any attention to these forums and the whiners that troll them. Get ready for the impact.
Good Luck and thanks for the great game while it lasted.
I'm currently out at sea, first time i got to check this thread since i left. Happy to see it's still being discussed and ideas keep flowing.
REALLY unhappy that untill NOW with so much feedback, suggestions etc...there is still no official word from the devs.
I hope that by the time i reach land again, there will be some indication as to what the devs have decided...:(
They are probably going through the feedback and testing out various options to see if they can change their approach to TR adjustments. It's best they spend a good time in consideration and testing before they announce what they will end up doing.
It only SEEMS the problem because of the damage the enchantments do. It is the SAME problem on every other class.
Gimping core mechanics will not fix the problem because it is not the problem.
Stealth is a problem due to the nature of stealth itself. It is very difficult to design it just right, so that it isn't so useful that it is overpowering or so useless that it is pointless. It provides further complication to any issue involving the class due to this, so any problem facing the TR class isn't the same as like problems facing other classes.
I wanted rage on the patch notes thread, but it is closed so I'll rage here. Nerf our LA...o.k. fine I can deal with that. Nerf my bleed fine it'll just take longer to kill some things. Take 4 of my daggers away no big deal I can get over it.
At wills now deplete stealth meter...WTF are you thinking stealth is our bread and butter if this nerf goes live you can pretty much kiss pve as a rogue good bye. Everything will be harder, soloing? Will we even be able to solo foundry missions? Stealth is what keeps us alive in pve, and now we can't even get off one flurry. I went on the test server and it is obvious that they just don't want us playing a rogue anymore. That is what will happen if this goes live rogues will just quit and make a gwf.
WTF is the point of having gear that has + % to stealth bonus if we can't even stay in stealth? Not to mention our feats that uses stealth or gives us more damage while stealth, with the patch both of these will be useless. The sad thing is this nerf seems like it is for pvp...PVP again WTF!!! This will not stop rogues from owning pvp and we'll eventually get no stealth at all. I mean really have the devs even tested this out? Oh no that's what we are for, well we've tested it and it is not cool...Not cool at all.
If this patch does go live, then I'll just retire my rogue and go play an op gwf instead, except for pvp I'll jump in there just to make more people cry and see if they eventually take our stealth away completely.
End rage.
Yea, I had a feeling a gfw would be a better choice as they are protected by the superstition that they are the weakest class
Stealth is a problem due to the nature of stealth itself.
How come? Isn't that a bit like saying shields are a problem because of the nature of it blocking attacks?
Stealth is not invisibility when the TR is close enough. I do agree ranged attacks should break stealth or severely diminish it, but other than that there is no inherent problem with stealth. Stealth doesn't damage you.
Except of course for the psychological factor, shark sightings always tend to get people riled up over nothing
They are probably going through the feedback and testing out various options to see if they can change their approach to TR adjustments. It's best they spend a good time in consideration and testing before they announce what they will end up doing.
You know what? You're absolutely right. Thanks for reminding me, what happens when we push things and they come out with something that isn't fully tested and thought through.
My impatience was showing abit^^
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
Stealth is a problem due to the nature of stealth itself. It is very difficult to design it just right, so that it isn't so useful that it is overpowering or so useless that it is pointless. It provides further complication to any issue involving the class due to this, so any problem facing the TR class isn't the same as like problems facing other classes.
You are absolutely correct, stealth combined with certain enchantments make for a very formidable build not unlike the unstoppable GWF's out there now. The difference is you can correct them with a minor tween to their timers. Correcting stealth destroys the revolutionary build mechanic that makes this game unique.
Cryptic has broke the mold in modern day MMO design. The success of this game will hang on the decisions that they are about to make. Many have fallen in love with their new dynamic characters. I hate to say it because I count myself among that crowd, it will to a tough pill to swallow if they go through with this one. I'm pretty certain they will. The test server is a 'preview' server which means this is what your gonna get in the near future. It's a shame, I really like this game.
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Except that that's all the rogue is there for, single target damage. The gwf can survive AND hit multiple targets. In the end, it doesn't end up being 100% more damage done by the rogue, because of the single target style. Against a geared gwf, on a single target, of course the rogue will own it.
Rogue has an ability that reduces almost all dmg (My friend let the boss hit him because it reduces cd or something like that), they have dodge, invisibility
In dungeon, the boss battle is the main event, that (and singularity) is why no one invites gwf for DG.
and when I said a good rogue can do 100% or more dmg than GWF, I mean with boss agro, cause I cant take agro from that much dmg...
I do frozen heart 5-6 times per DD, so im pretty much trained against that easy boss (harder bosses is worse for GWF than for rogues)
I cant believe you rogues are crying so much because they are going to nerf an obvious op class that outshine by far another one in pve (this is a pve game)
Rogue has an ability that reduces almost all dmg (My friend let the boss hit him because it reduces cd or something like that), they have dodge, invisibility
In dungeon, the boss battle is the main event, that (and singularity) is why no one invites gwf for DG.
and when I said a good rogue can do 100% or more dmg than GWF, I mean with boss agro, cause I cant take agro from that much dmg...
I do frozen heart 5-6 times per DD, so im pretty much trained against that easy boss (harder bosses is worse for GWF than for rogues)
I cant believe you rogues are crying so much because they are going to nerf an obvious op class that outshine by far another one in pve (this is a pve game)
Hey I think a better solution to balancing the perma stealth build is not to make it refill less of our stealth meter but to increase its cool down by about 5 seconds.. You know why? Perma stealth build requires you to have a drastic amount of recovery you even need to be speced into intelligence (gimping our damage because of lack of strength) if not you will not get the 30% cooldown reduction. So if you increase the cooldown time of bait and switch to 30(+) seconds ,unless you want to just forget about doing any damage at all and become a troll, we cannot hit that amount of cooldown reduction. There is a soft cap!
Stealth builds already gimp our damage so I believe in that time GWF and GF should be able to withstand our full rotation and afterwards you have that 5 second ( or more due to how much more time they have added to Bait and Switch) time limit to cc us to death ( which IMO is sooo easy to do to rogues [ i also play a GWF] ). Now you ask about CW, should not the main damage of the game be able to kill each other in one rotation??? Many times i have used take down on a stealth rogue because of awareness to my sorrondings it is not that hard and common we dont complain when we get spotted out of stealth and than get blown the f*@%^#! up because of cc and damage, let me emphazise this is ONLY against CW (talking about the damage). It's only fair.
Too many people are being soo ignorant of how our class works ffs devs need to get it straight. Common guys make this known, spread the word because all the devs are doing are trying to make players happy ( im not talking about the TR community ) because they have complained. But what they dont realize is that they are destroying the game's main out put of DPS in PvE and basically killing our survivablitiy in PvP. Thanks and put this into consideration
nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
LOL **** wall of text from some people............
so many tears keep falling.... why haven't you guys all rolled GWF's yet. Sooo fun on my gwf Qweefmonster face tanking and killing entire teams in the 40-49 bracket..
How come? Isn't that a bit like saying shields are a problem because of the nature of it blocking attacks?
Stealth is not invisibility when the TR is close enough. I do agree ranged attacks should break stealth or severely diminish it, but other than that there is no inherent problem with stealth. Stealth doesn't damage you.
Except of course for the psychological factor, shark sightings always tend to get people riled up over nothing
Shields do not make you impossible or difficult to see. Losing or having your primary sense in an MMO greatly impaired in PvP obviously causes more of an issue than someone using a shield would. Some permastealth Rogues specialized in range attacks in PvP, making them less likely to be revealed (though this may change with the revision to CoS). Shark sightings can also lead to people being maimed.
Comments
At wills now deplete stealth meter...WTF are you thinking stealth is our bread and butter if this nerf goes live you can pretty much kiss pve as a rogue good bye. Everything will be harder, soloing? Will we even be able to solo foundry missions? Stealth is what keeps us alive in pve, and now we can't even get off one flurry. I went on the test server and it is obvious that they just don't want us playing a rogue anymore. That is what will happen if this goes live rogues will just quit and make a gwf.
WTF is the point of having gear that has + % to stealth bonus if we can't even stay in stealth? Not to mention our feats that uses stealth or gives us more damage while stealth, with the patch both of these will be useless. The sad thing is this nerf seems like it is for pvp...PVP again WTF!!! This will not stop rogues from owning pvp and we'll eventually get no stealth at all. I mean really have the devs even tested this out? Oh no that's what we are for, well we've tested it and it is not cool...Not cool at all.
If this patch does go live, then I'll just retire my rogue and go play an op gwf instead, except for pvp I'll jump in there just to make more people cry and see if they eventually take our stealth away completely.
End rage.
If TR weren't supposed to be able to permastealth, why did the developers provide them with the tools to permastealth? This is in no way an exploit, and never was. It is simply using the tools the developers designed as they were meant to be used.
Now, they may not have anticipated how permastealth would affect this game as well as they could have, and it appears data over time has shown them that stealth is more efficient than they wish it to be, which would explain the proposed changes.
Don't try to make an exploit or abuse issue out of players simply using the tools provided to them, as they were designed to be used. If it were an issue of exploitative abuse, players would have been penalized in addition to revisions to stealth.
Yes they did. They made it harder to maintain permastealth, due to the stealth bleed of at-wills. This requires the permastealth Rogue to make more sacrifices than previously to attain permastealth, which ends out being a greater damage sacrifice.
As of yet, though, they have not made permastealth impossible.
Im more agree with nerfing bait and switch or shadow strike, I also agree the nerfing of rogue means to increase the role of GWF in pve, so i may be ok with the LA nerf although i still think that is too much. but I really cant understand nerfing the core mechanism of the rogue-stealth. if so a TR could barely use the 5 second stealth to get into position,unless the creator want us all use the same skill like shadow strike; and cant use stealth to attack; also cant use stealth to get away much because of being attacked. then what is stealth for?
Actually I also think the responsible thing to do is to buff other classes to counter the problems instead of nerfing TR, but then i get it, buffing all clearly needs more work then nerfing one. so I really dont have anything to say, other than maybe make CoS the only skill that drains stealth, ok thats been said so no, I really dont have anything to say now- -
Also its obvious they aren't trying to nerf perma stealth they are nerfing the crit heavy executioner builds. and the stealth-crit hybrids because a lot of the crit builds still used stealth for extra boosts.
Heck this nerf was probably not even prompted by pvp it was probably a similar response to the cleric AS nerf. theyhave their datamining tools seek out any abnormal patterns saw 1-3 powers Everyone had with completely different builds...both pvp and pve...something was wrong with the fabric of space.
if this is the case I am a bit worried for my CW singularity and MM as well as any other power EVERYONE uses because its so cool.
Trick System
Each Rogue, at level 10, gains Deception which grants them the ability to use Trickery. The Rogue has three Tricks (which replace the stealth bar). Each of these Tricks start as unusable, but using certain powers grant the Rogue the ability to use one Trick. To do so, he hits the Tab key and enters into Trickery. While in Trickery he has combat advantage up to and including the use of one Trick, and then he no longer is in Trickery and thus no longer has combat advantage from this ability.
The powers that grant a Trick when used in normal mode are: Lashing Blade, Bait and Switch, Path of the Blade, Impossible to Catch, Shadow Strike and Smoke Bomb. All powers cost a Trick when used from Trickery.
Due to the removal of stealth and the stealth bar, the abilities, feats and powers that currently interact with stealth have to be changed to reflect the Trick System. Changes are shown below:
Class Abilities
Sneak Attack: Increase your Run Speed by 10/20/30% when using Trickery.
Deception: Trickery: You have Combat Advantage and your encounter powers gain new effects.
Class Features
Tenacious Concealment: Increases AC by +1/+2/+3 and your Deflection Chance by 1/2/3%.
Invisible Infiltrator: After using a daily, you get a Trick and a 5% damage bonus for 5 seconds.
At Wills
Gloaming Cut: A shadowy strike that has a 15% chance of giving you a Trick if you kill your target with it.
Encounters
The following powers grant you a Trick when used normally. Like all other powers, they cost you a Trick when used with Trickery:
Lashing Blade, Bait and Switch, Path of the Blade, Impossible to Catch, Shadow Strike, and Smoke Bomb.
Dailies
Lurkers Assault: Lurk through the Shadowfell, dealing 10/20/30% extra damage. When activated you are granted a Trick.
Heroic Feats
Cunning Ambusher: You deal 2/4/6% damage for 6 seconds after doing a Trick.
Twilight Adept: When you dodge you have a 2/4/6/8/10% chance of getting a Trick.
Improved Cunning: Your cunning makes you harder to hit, giving you +1/+2/+3/+4/+5 AC.
Saboteur Feats
Cunning Stalker: When using a Trick, you build 6/12/18/24/30% more Action Points.
Sneaky Stabber: Your Gloaming Cut now has a 1/2/3/4/5% chance of giving you a Trick.
Expert Sneak: When using Trickery, you gain 2/4/6/8/10% Run Speed. Your first At Will attack will reduce your targets next attack by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Sneak of Shadows: Your damaging abilities do 2/4/6/8/10% more damage when using Trickery.
Unerring Ambush: Deft Strike, Dazing Strike, and Blitz do 4/8/12/16/20% more damage when using Trickery.
Ruthless Efficiency: You get an additional Trick pip.
Scoundrel Feats
Whirlwind Sneak Attack: For 10 seconds after using a Trick, the first time you hit with an encounter power it will deal 15% extra damage.
Execution Feats
Brutal Backstab: When using a Trick, you critical with 5/10/15/20/25% more severity.
Equipment
Any set bonus that currently increases the stealth bar now instead grants one extra Trick pip.
X
X
Please note that all the numbers given above are simply for the purposes of illustration to help discussion, rather than a deceleration of what these figures should be if this or a similar system was implemented instead of a stealth system.
Also, there could be other changes made to the Rogue in addition to the Trick System, such as granting them more hit points to make up for the survivability lost due to no longer having stealth.
This is essentially a very early draft of what is a very different concept for Rogues, but I thought some might find it interesting to think and talk about.
So how does that address the serious survivability problems rogues will have in PvE without stealth?
Also, do I read it right that "trickery" just gives combat advantage? That's kinda useless, as any well-played rogue is going to have combat advantage in PvE most of the time anyway due to positioning.
When we start talking about completely removing the core mechanic of a class, do you think that the nerf-calling has gone far enough?
Trickery gives combat advantage and access to the forms of attacks that are now given by being in stealth.
I did mention that other measures may need to be taken to increase Rogue durability due to losing stealth without suggesting any specifics. So, I didn't address it, but left it open to discussion. Perhaps you could suggest something to enhance their durability in lieu of stealth.
Trickery duplicates many of the abilities of the class. They are simply accessed in a different way, due to the removal of stealth. Essentially all that is happening is the stealth aspect is being replaced.
This isn't presented as a nerf but as a re-imagining of the TR class that removes the stealth component but still has the class able to be quite tricky in combat through a different mechanic.
Except that that's all the rogue is there for, single target damage. The gwf can survive AND hit multiple targets. In the end, it doesn't end up being 100% more damage done by the rogue, because of the single target style. Against a geared gwf, on a single target, of course the rogue will own it.
I get that, but that's not such a small deal. That's basically removing the TR class and replacing it with something else. I can't believe we are even discussing this.
It is tons of work. Developers won't do that. It is the amount of work equal to making new content.
They will just nerf or make some fine tuning. Later down the pipe when TR are outsiders.
It is a lot of work. It's also a lot of work to get stealth working just right, so that it is useful without being overpowering. I don't know which of the two is more work.
Well, it removes stealth from the TR class. It does however keep the tricks. It is called, after all, the Trickster Rogue, so my suggestion is class related. I don't see why discussion along these lines should result in disbelief.
If the problem is TR's one shotting peeps in PvP then I would ask why do they not have a soulshard? Is PvP the main focus of this game? The mechanic in this game is working as intended, if you nerf it for a third time they are going to be useless when measured against CW's who dominate PvE and GWF's who are dominating PvP. Rogues are supposed to be a DPS class and by taking away stealth and Lurkers you are completely destroying their DPS mechanic. Yes they do good one shot damage in PvP but that's pretty much it. I've been ruled by GWF's and GF's who know how to play their class. It's a skill game and players with no skill are gonna wine on the forums.
TR stealth rogues are not that powerful in their own right, what makes them powerful is the tier 2 PvP set (25% stealth increase) and stacking tenebrous enchantments (increases crit severity) with the PvP set and HP Enchantments. So instead of nerfing the class into oblivion and losing a third of your player base why not just nerf the STACKING on tenebrous enchantments? Oh, you'd lose money on selling keys in this pay to win scheme of Nightmare boxes? Your going to lose money anyway when you lose a third of your base with this massive nerf. Also if you check you numbers in PvP GWF's are hands down the most powerful! They are two shotting just about everyone and are virtually unstoppable once geared correctly. I've seen them hold a point against 3 and 4 players and actually win out. Now thats OP.
If your nerfing the class just to usher in Rangers then I'm out. I can't afford this scheme and I've probably spent 350 on this game already. I personally hate nerfs. Your player base is what it is now because people enjoy the game. When you make changes you will impact a portion of the player base that doesn't pay any attention to these forums and the whiners that troll them. Get ready for the impact.
Good Luck and thanks for the great game while it lasted.
Wraith
REALLY unhappy that untill NOW with so much feedback, suggestions etc...there is still no official word from the devs.
I hope that by the time i reach land again, there will be some indication as to what the devs have decided...:(
They are probably going through the feedback and testing out various options to see if they can change their approach to TR adjustments. It's best they spend a good time in consideration and testing before they announce what they will end up doing.
It only SEEMS the problem because of the damage the enchantments do. It is the SAME problem on every other class.
Gimping core mechanics will not fix the problem because it is not the problem.
Stealth is a problem due to the nature of stealth itself. It is very difficult to design it just right, so that it isn't so useful that it is overpowering or so useless that it is pointless. It provides further complication to any issue involving the class due to this, so any problem facing the TR class isn't the same as like problems facing other classes.
Yea, I had a feeling a gfw would be a better choice as they are protected by the superstition that they are the weakest class
How come? Isn't that a bit like saying shields are a problem because of the nature of it blocking attacks?
Stealth is not invisibility when the TR is close enough. I do agree ranged attacks should break stealth or severely diminish it, but other than that there is no inherent problem with stealth. Stealth doesn't damage you.
Except of course for the psychological factor, shark sightings always tend to get people riled up over nothing
You know what? You're absolutely right. Thanks for reminding me, what happens when we push things and they come out with something that isn't fully tested and thought through.
My impatience was showing abit^^
You are absolutely correct, stealth combined with certain enchantments make for a very formidable build not unlike the unstoppable GWF's out there now. The difference is you can correct them with a minor tween to their timers. Correcting stealth destroys the revolutionary build mechanic that makes this game unique.
Cryptic has broke the mold in modern day MMO design. The success of this game will hang on the decisions that they are about to make. Many have fallen in love with their new dynamic characters. I hate to say it because I count myself among that crowd, it will to a tough pill to swallow if they go through with this one. I'm pretty certain they will. The test server is a 'preview' server which means this is what your gonna get in the near future. It's a shame, I really like this game.
Rogue has an ability that reduces almost all dmg (My friend let the boss hit him because it reduces cd or something like that), they have dodge, invisibility
In dungeon, the boss battle is the main event, that (and singularity) is why no one invites gwf for DG.
and when I said a good rogue can do 100% or more dmg than GWF, I mean with boss agro, cause I cant take agro from that much dmg...
I do frozen heart 5-6 times per DD, so im pretty much trained against that easy boss (harder bosses is worse for GWF than for rogues)
I cant believe you rogues are crying so much because they are going to nerf an obvious op class that outshine by far another one in pve (this is a pve game)
Your stupid is too much to stupid with...
Stealth builds already gimp our damage so I believe in that time GWF and GF should be able to withstand our full rotation and afterwards you have that 5 second ( or more due to how much more time they have added to Bait and Switch) time limit to cc us to death ( which IMO is sooo easy to do to rogues [ i also play a GWF] ). Now you ask about CW, should not the main damage of the game be able to kill each other in one rotation??? Many times i have used take down on a stealth rogue because of awareness to my sorrondings it is not that hard and common we dont complain when we get spotted out of stealth and than get blown the f*@%^#! up because of cc and damage, let me emphazise this is ONLY against CW (talking about the damage). It's only fair.
Too many people are being soo ignorant of how our class works ffs devs need to get it straight. Common guys make this known, spread the word because all the devs are doing are trying to make players happy ( im not talking about the TR community ) because they have complained. But what they dont realize is that they are destroying the game's main out put of DPS in PvE and basically killing our survivablitiy in PvP. Thanks and put this into consideration
so many tears keep falling.... why haven't you guys all rolled GWF's yet. Sooo fun on my gwf Qweefmonster face tanking and killing entire teams in the 40-49 bracket..
Shields do not make you impossible or difficult to see. Losing or having your primary sense in an MMO greatly impaired in PvP obviously causes more of an issue than someone using a shield would. Some permastealth Rogues specialized in range attacks in PvP, making them less likely to be revealed (though this may change with the revision to CoS). Shark sightings can also lead to people being maimed.