It is an utter disaster and game breaking, IMO. These changes make the Rogue worthless in PVE.
It's exactly what every non-Rogue class wanted. They want the Rogue class to be worthless so their class can shine, be picked over Rogues for PvE groups, and dominate in PvP without having to worry about Rogues competing with them or owning them in PvP.
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
borgued3 don't mind i use what you said to make a point.
Developers......please take a look at the above quote.
It's not a threat, nor was it COERCED by me or anyone in anyway.
Is THIS what you want the community to be like?
Unwilling to help, guide, cos we fear we will get nerfed again? Imagine a new player coming to your game.....will get ZERO help in terms of information available. WHY? Cos people actually FEAR being intelligent enough to find a build that is good, and if they DO find it...they'll keep it to themselves....
Come on. All the suggestions and methods posted here are FAIR. They won't GUT the class too badly and they will STILL achieve your goal of bringing balance.
It's a good solution. I HOPE AND PRAY this is reaching your eyes.
i dont mind man, feel free
Buts thats just how i will roll my boat. My new build? the ones who will know are gonna be likelly my guildmates and my friends who need guidance on the game. Why would i post something on boards for the public so that a legion copy and paste it (like it was to permas) and eventually comes a nerf hammer just to remove what i did and add nothing? I rather remain silent and let strangers find their own path.
+1
The fact that probably 90% of the rogue population probably doesn't have these enchants, yet still have to suffer this change to the whole class mechanics is beyond me tbh.
Those who exploited the game and stored millions of AD will be fully equipped with these enchants.They will not feel the pain anywhere near as bad as the honest player just trying to get by and enjoy the class we love.
Will these enchants be looked at? Very doubtful, the guys with cash to burn make cryptic a nice profit, they will not be too keen in reducing that profit by nerfing them.
This whole perma stealth situation could have been handled so differently, there are so many better ideas than this intended change on these very forums, and as stated above perma stealth will still be achievable even if this change goes through.
Has it occurred maybe they were not actually trying to nerf perma-stealth? The cut looks like they were trying to nerf peoples ability to have uber crit builds and one shot kills. While perma stealth is obnoxious its actualy not the most efficient or overused build in the game.
When they nerfed devoted clerics they nerfed astral seal even though AS was not really why people were dual clericing, what they probably do is they data-mine 1-3 skills are used more the all the rest and they evaluate why these skills are more appealing and nerf those. since LA DF and COS were both in a lot of executioner AND perma-stelth builds, those powers were your top contenders for nerfing.
Notice that powers like Bait and switch, impossible to catch, and bloodbath which were used more in PVP and Perma-stealth builds but not well liked for executioner were not even touched. I suspect PWE doesn't even really look at the forum for this type of advice due to how many people do them in a negative trollish fashion.
Though I have noticed a lot of forum ideas do get through. but it seems to mainly be the positive idea threads that seem to make a difference. This is actually a well done constructive thread but the title sounds trolly so it probably wont get as much of a response as others.
basic thing to avoid that I see in 80% of the threads wanting changes is the premise of bargaining or trade. if they don't do something here we will get something we want. if they nerf bait and switch they ARENT going to unnerf lurkers assault. they are going to nerf bait and switch AS WELL. Even if your ideas are a good solution that doesn't hamper PVE as much.
our best hope is that even the fan-bois and care-bears like me are saying this nerf is over the top. so lets hope that they see reason and moderate this nerf a bit. but over all I don't think they were trying to nerf stealth at all its just a side effect. if
of course there is nothing wrong with pushing your ow agenda if you want perma-stealth nerfed as well that's fine.... I've been trying to press for flanking bonuses to be buffed to give a more defined roll for rogues in a team.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I can counter it and effectively... I use an original hybrid build that keeps my DPS and gives me the versatility to counter stealth build rogues in PvP
I do too. I successfully counter perma stealth rogues as a rogue, and a Guardian Fighter.
They tried this with DC's it didn't work then, it wont work now...if this patch is on preview it means it will go live unless its some game breaking item, and even then it wouldn't probably stop the nerf to rogues. I already rerolled a toon to replace my nerfed DC and now it got nerfed, TWICE! I am hoping it wont go live, but I am not wasting anymore time or money on this game or effort only to be bent over again. If by some miracle the rescind the nerfs I might still play.
The thing is, with DCs, Cryptic were right, and we were wrong*. DC is ten times more fun to play now, unless you're one of those people who needed to shield stack as a crutch. In a busy fight, you need to pay a bit of attention, and "paper over the crack" of five seconds or so before you can cast Astral shield, but it's perfectly doable- especially since you now aren't tanking all of the mobs all of the time (unless your GF and CW are terrible).
Yes, if you needed shield stacking because you were a bad player, this won't mollify you. Similar themes may well emerge with the big and overdue TR nerf. Those who can't adapt and continue to do well will reveal themselves as hopeless facerollers who were relying on a broken class to provide an IWIN button to cover their lack of skill. The good players will still be useful. This will be true whether or not these nerfs are reined in a bit, or made more severe, eventually. The wheat will be separated from the chaff- and goodness me, there is a lot of very tweenragey chaff out there right now.
The thing is, with DCs, Cryptic were right, and we were wrong*. DC is ten times more fun to play now, unless you're one of those people who needed to shield stack as a crutch. In a busy fight, you need to pay a bit of attention, and "paper over the crack" of five seconds or so before you can cast Astral shield, but it's perfectly doable- especially since you now aren't tanking all of the mobs all of the time (unless your GF and CW are terrible).
Yes, if you needed shield stacking because you were a bad player, this won't mollify you. Similar themes may well emerge with the big and overdue TR nerf. Those who can't adapt and continue to do well will reveal themselves as hopeless facerollers who were relying on a broken class to provide an IWIN button to cover their lack of skill. The good players will still be useful. This will be true whether or not these nerfs are reined in a bit, or made more severe, eventually. The wheat will be separated from the chaff- and goodness me, there is a lot of very tweenragey chaff out there right now.
*I know, right? Bottle it.
I shelved my DC (If you must know) because you are pretty much forced in to a cookie cutter build to be a healing cleric, there is not much deviation. I can play him just fine, its just boring. Its one of the reasons I liked rogue, you were not forced in to cookie cutter builds, but them nerfing stealth as a whole is the core mechanic of the class. Then add the previous nerfs and more current nerfs on top of all this.
Just imagine your DC getting another nerf and your encounter powers cost double the divinity meanwhile you generate less AP from your at will attacks and sunburst AP generation was halved. Oh, almost forgot, and imagine your Hammer of Fate damage being reduced 60% and The effectiveness of Hallowed Ground (or the like) being reduced by 50%
Then you might have a good idea what this nerf means to rogues.
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
You're purposely ignorant to the fact that 1) Lurker's Assault can be canceled by ANY control ability. 2) It takes Rogues much longer to build AP than any other class in the game. 3) Other classes can 1/2/3 shot with Encounters, Tab, and/or a combination of their Daily... while CC locking their opponents (at far range in the case of CWs). Rogues can't 1-shot anyone without the pre-nerf Lurker's Assault being up unless you're a squishy bad player with bad gear and they have to be at melee range.
You keep claiming you play Rogue, but all I ever see from you on this forum is whining about Rogues and missing facts / half-truths in your QQ posts. You're a CW sick of a class designed to be a hard counter to your preferred class. Stop pretending like you're a Rogue and understand what we experience, because you're not one of us.
BTW, a Rogue's main objective in PvP is to contest and capture the enemy's home point. You can duke it out all you want at 2, but you won't win the game without a good Rogue, Sent. GWF, and/or GF to contest, hold, and capture the enemy's home point. So stop whining about 4v5s when you have no clue how to even win in Domination PvP.
Whoa someone seems a bit upset. Since we're continuing the trend of hypotheticals 1.) When I pop my lurker's assault. I am fully aware of what classes are around me and popping ITC works wonders for preventing LA's interruption until you can reenter stealth. 2.) When did I say they didn't? Just because they have less access to their daily doesn't mean they deserve a daily that's capable of destroying 2+ people with ease. 3.) That was my point. Comparing encounter/daily rotations of other classes that require multiple cast times to "one shot" people versus stealth, lurkers assault, lashing blade, 1 dead (how long was that cast time?), impossible to catch, impact shotx3 or just cos at least 1 more dead. All in what, 12s? So by the logic of saying other class rotations utilizing their daily is 1/2/3 shotting someone. I on a regular basis 1/2/3 shot multiple people in duration of LA.
You seem rather irate that I play a rogue as well as a CW and understand aspects of the class are a bit much. I'm not "one of you" because I play a CW also? I knew aspects of the CW's prenerf were overpowered also and you won't find a single thread or post by me arguing that they weren't. But could you please quote/link for me the QQ posts by me that are whining about rogues and that are missing facts / half-truths in the posts? I'm curious as to whether you can actually find any or that perhaps you're mistaken since the monitor is probably a bit blurry with all those tears welling up.
BTW if you bothered learn anything in school. They sometimes teach reading comprehension. Perhaps if you read it again. I'll use bold, some color, and underline the stuff that renders any point you were trying to make with your BTW statement a bit moot.
And honestly if a rogue wants to go permastealth and do nothing but dance around on a point all day. I have no issue with that what so ever. He's essentially leaving his team 4v5 the entire match when it comes to actual combat. I only ever pug and am there to PvP. If my team ends up winning in the process of beating kids up, so be it. If players want to avoid all pvp contact and PVE there way to victory. More power to them. Your team doesn't have to win to get top contribution for a chance at getting the only thing worthwhile from PvP. The RNG rare item.
Has it occurred maybe they were not actually trying to nerf perma-stealth? The cut looks like they were trying to nerf peoples ability to have uber crit builds and one shot kills. While perma stealth is obnoxious its actualy not the most efficient or overused build in the game.
No dev has come out and stated why they are nerfing Rogues' core components and skills in a ridiculous fashion, even after 2 days of Rogue outrage and Rogue sympathizers' feedback. Cryptic's communication in this whole matter has been entirely absent, so nobody has a clue WTF they were trying to nerf or "balance" in the first place.
It's plainly obvious that Cryptic nerfs classes based on forum whiners and trolls. What did the QQ'ers cry about most? Permastealth. Of course LA+LAshing 1-shotting was whined about too, but not nearly at the levels of permastealth tears.
Regardless of what they were trying to nerf, they did it the wrong way and failed in each aspect. If they wanted to nerf permastealth, they failed. It's still possible to achieve permastealth post-patch and hold a point indefinitely if the opposing team is too dumb to counter with AoEs and DoTs. If their goal was to nerf 1-shotting, they failed in that aspect too because Rogues will still be able to 1-shot players without map awareness, enough skill to dodge and block, and badly geared players with low Defense and HP.
What Cryptic did accomplish with these nerfs is making PvE Rogues useless in dungeons. They succeeded in making their boring and simplistic PvE content even more tedious than ever before, because boss fights will now take much longer without Rogues' great single target damage.
When they nerfed devoted clerics they nerfed astral seal even though AS was not really why people were dual clericing, what they probably do is they data-mine 1-3 skills are used more the all the rest and they evaluate why these skills are more appealing and nerf those. since LA DF and COS were both in a lot of executioner AND perma-stelth builds, those powers were your top contenders for nerfing.
When they nerfed Clerics, they only nerfed Astral Shield, not Astral Seal. They nerfed the duration of Astral Shield, nothing else. Stop trying to compare the Rogue nerfs to the Cleric Astral Shield nerf. They're not comparable at all. Rogue nerfs are 10x more drastic and class-breaking than that Cleric nerf people cried about for weeks and this is the 2nd time Cryptic is going nuts on Rogue nerfs.
Notice that powers like Bait and switch, impossible to catch, and bloodbath which were used more in PVP and Perma-stealth builds but not well liked for executioner were not even touched. I suspect PWE doesn't even really look at the forum for this type of advice due to how many people do them in a negative trollish fashion.
They read and listen to all of the other troll posts and whine posts about Rogues being OP. No reason why they wouldn't read legitimate suggestions here.
You're purposely ignorant to the fact that 1) Lurker's Assault can be canceled by ANY control ability. 2) It takes Rogues much longer to build AP than any other class in the game. 3) Other classes can 1/2/3 shot with Encounters, Tab, and/or a combination of their Daily... while CC locking their opponents (at far range in the case of CWs). Rogues can't 1-shot anyone without the pre-nerf Lurker's Assault being up unless you're a squishy bad player with bad gear and they have to be at melee range.
You keep claiming you play Rogue, but all I ever see from you on this forum is whining about Rogues and missing facts / half-truths in your QQ posts. You're a CW sick of a class designed to be a hard counter to your preferred class. Stop pretending like you're a Rogue and understand what we experience, because you're not one of us.
BTW, a Rogue's main objective in PvP is to contest and capture the enemy's home point. You can duke it out all you want at 2, but you won't win the game without a good Rogue, Sent. GWF, and/or GF to contest, hold, and capture the enemy's home point. So stop whining about 4v5s when you have no clue how to even win in Domination PvP.
If you check his back posts, he is CW that pretends he plays a rogue and then whines and complains about them how they needed to be nerfed... because he plays one... I call shenanigans.
If you check his back posts, he is CW that pretends he plays a rogue and then whines and complains about them how they needed to be nerfed... because he plays one... I call shenanigans.
I know. I've read them all too often. He's a whiny troll, through and through, pretending to be a Rogue.
I'm a PvE executioner rogue, and I'm mad as hell about this.
I just got my rogue to 60, I spent a good chunk of change gearing him up, and I got my build right where I wanted it as a balance between damage and survivability. I don't feel overpowered, I'm a glass cannon with little margin of error, and I'm happy with that. It reminds me of my old EQ mage, high risk/reward gameplay rewarding careful tactics and punishing mistakes hard. I've been having fun.
And now the rug is about to be pulled out from under me, due to a bunch of vocal PvP whiners who don't even understand the rogue class and its abilities.
I've been playing MMOs since they were MUDs (yes, really) and I've seen a hell of a lot of nerfs and whining over said nerfs. I've been nerfed before, I'm used to it, and I'm usually OK with it if it makes sense and I can carry on. But I don't think I've ever seen the nerf bat swung this hard in one patch. Do the devs even understand how extreme this nerf is?
The part that really makes me want to scream is that the nerfs aren't even the right ones. Perma-stealth is still perfectly doable! One-shot kills in PvP are still doable! Meanwhile, PvE is completely destroyed, for ALL builds. Have the devs even looked at the rogue abilities and noticed how many have a "while in stealth" component? I mean, they designed the class, don't they have a clue about how important stealth is for our class? They made us that way, and now they are going to destroy stealth as a survivability/damage tool in PvE, while leaving PvP rogues with the ability to permastealth. Fail much?
I'm all for a permastealth nerf, we don't need to stay in stealth like that, but we DO need stealth to actually, like, play our class, since the class was designed to rely on stealth. Limit stealth? Sure, go ahead. Make it so attacking destroys stealth, when our attacks depend on stealth? Stupid.
And, damage? We're the main single-target DPS class, damage is kind of important for us, it's pretty much all we have to offer. And our damage keeps getting nerfed; with these changes we'll be virtually useless. We will have no decent dailies left, we'll have to resort to Whirlwind of Blades and Bloodbath, situational at best, and I guess we can expect those to be nerfed too once we start using them. Hell, I built my rogue to gain AP and take advantage of dailies, and now it's getting to the point where I'll have no dailies to make AP worth even having.
This isn't just a nerf, it's the destruction of the rogue class in PvE, all builds. The only thing rogues will still be able to do well is PvP, which is mind-blowing considering that this whole mess was an attempt to appease PvP whiners. Other than the CoS nerf (which I don't like because I use CoS a lot in PvE, but I understand the reason, though people could learn to dodge), these nerfs are unjustified and make no sense at all.
I've spent a good deal of cash on this game, more than I intended to, but I won't be spending another dime if these changes go live. At this point I just don't even want to play, I'll log in once a day to get the coin but I do not want to invest any more time or money into this game at this point: if this is how things are going to be handled then it looks like a bad investment. It's too bad, the game is fun and I was enjoying it, but at this point I feel like I've been screwed by investing time and money into a game that is about to completely destroy my main.
Ask yourself this question, who in their right mind is going to invest time and money into building a character, when the whole thing can be destroyed out of the blue for no good reason? Even if I make an alt, who knows what class will be next? I was only willing to spend money on this game because I thought that I was investing in things I could, you know, actually enjoy for a while. Now I've spent all this time and money on stuff that is about to be made worthless with one patch.
You know this thread assumes the devs care read/care about your suggestions.
Yeah, and the devs assume that players are still going to fork over cash, after the devs wildly swing the nerf bat at things that said cash was spent on.
I too am wondering, how and why a game can have it's BASIC classes changed so much AFTER beta...
For me this is totally new.
It's not new to me. I saw it in Star Wars Galaxies. And we all know where that went don't we? I'm seeing disturbing parallels here, the devs have no clue about the game and are using the forums alone to tell what is going on, so the PvP whiners will win every time.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you check his back posts, he is CW that pretends he plays a rogue and then whines and complains about them how they needed to be nerfed... because he plays one... I call shenanigans.
I know. I've read them all too often. He's a whiny troll, through and through, pretending to be a Rogue.
Here you go guys. Sign into the gateway with your account info then click one of your characters and you can check out the character sheet of the rogue I'm "pretending" to have.
Or perhaps the INT rogue I mentioned in multiple threads, that I was leveling up to get in on some of the lawlz before the nerfs came. (This endeavor is being abandoned with these recent announcements.)
Here you go guys. Sign into the gateway with your account info then click one of your characters and you can check out the character sheet of the rogue I'm "pretending" to have.
Or perhaps the INT rogue I mentioned in multiple threads, that I was leveling up to get in on some of the lawlz before the nerfs came. (This endeavor is being abandoned with these recent announcements.)
Now please tell me again how you're calling shenanigans.
Here you go guys. Sign into the gateway with your account info then click one of your characters and you can check out the character sheet of the rogue I'm "pretending" to have.
Or perhaps the INT rogue I mentioned in multiple threads, that I was leveling up to get in on some of the lawlz before the nerfs came. (This endeavor is being abandoned with these recent announcements.)
I'd love to hear more about your tears after your done attempting to say I don't play a class just because I don't agree with you that it doesn't need some tweaking.
It would be hard to believe that someone plays a Rogue, currently, after it was nerfed into the ground and say it still needs some "tweaking". Unless that "tweaking" is restoring Duelist's Flurry. It is already a pale shadow of what it once was, if this build goes live the class will be unplayable for the vast majority.
This is the only longest thread with relevant info, that has not been closed or moved. I even politely mailed the devs to ask them to take a glance at this thread. If we keep it filled with proper suggestions, and valid complaints, it MIGHT get the attention needed. It's our LAST SHOT.
My apologies nukeyoo, for not answering your initial post. After abit of backtracking i realised you responded, but i missed it in all the posts.
OK. The reason why i am focusing on lashing blade from Stealth +LA. is because this is the MAIN gripe from all the ppl that were making crying threads. "wtf, i never even saw the tr and i got one shot death" It's not that i choose to ignore the other 8 seconds of L.A.
It's just REASONABLE, because,after using LB from stealth, u are REVEALED. And the opposing team has to be.....ummm special..to not touch you once revealed, you get CCED by ANY skill after revealed...there goes your L.A.
"HAHAHA Devlinne, u don't pop ITC right after u revealed to avoid this?" Sure i do. But i'm VISIBLE. If what u said is correct. U are insinuating that i can, stealth+LA+LB one shot someone, pop ITC, and continue to kill everyone else in the vicinity.....are they..."special"? Are they somehow just standing still allowing me to do all this? Or am I "SPECIAL", not using the itc timing to get the hell outta dodge after oneshotting someone?
That is why i suggested #2 on my suggestion. Somethings gotta give......I may not like it, but something HAS to be sacrificed to the crying masses. Rather than it being a skill which tr's use in PVE more than pvp.....Might as well modify a skill that caused the crying in the first place and not hurt the class so much in other aspects too.
Thats what this thread is all about. Trying to please BOTH sides without TOTALLY ruining the class.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
The main pve problem I see is that rogues offer very little legitimate party utility outside of damage... other classes are still wanted in parties even without tremendous damage because they are needed/useful for most situations. Without a rogue's current damage, even if its on par with other classes in the future, it offers no benefit to venture with a rogue. Not to mention, a rogue's damage capability is highly dependent on the mobility of a target as rogues' current main at-will is highly immobile compared to other classes. If a boss mechanic was very sporadic and mobile the rogue would not net nearly as much damage as say a control wizard (although in most cases, things don't move around very much at the moment).
No one who is complaining about the rogue nerfs are trying to protect any potential unbalanced factors that are present with the class, everyone is trying to protect the viability of the class in pve group play.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It would be hard to believe that someone plays a Rogue, currently, after it was nerfed into the ground and say it still needs some "tweaking". Unless that "tweaking" is restoring Duelist's Flurry. It is already a pale shadow of what it once was, if this build goes live the class will be unplayable for the vast majority.
I meant in regards to what is currently live, which they are all referring to my supposed "whine" posts. I'm still interested in having you guys quote me my whine posts that are missing facts and containing half truths. As it stands on the PTS the proposed changes do need some tweaking also imo, the lurker's assault nerf is too harsh and the at wills diminishing stealth should be limited to cloud of steel.
This is the only longest thread with relevant info, that has not been closed or moved. I even politely mailed the devs to ask them to take a glance at this thread. If we keep it filled with proper suggestions, and valid complaints, it MIGHT get the attention needed. It's our LAST SHOT.
My apologies nukeyoo, for not answering your initial post. After abit of backtracking i realised you responded, but i missed it in all the posts.
OK. The reason why i am focusing on lashing blade from Stealth +LA. is because this is the MAIN gripe from all the ppl that were making crying threads. "wtf, i never even saw the tr and i got one shot death" It's not that i choose to ignore the other 8 seconds of L.A.
It's just REASONABLE, because,after using LB from stealth, u are REVEALED. And the opposing team has to be.....ummm special..to not touch you once revealed, you get CCED by ANY skill after revealed...there goes your L.A.
"HAHAHA Devlinne, u don't pop ITC right after u revealed to avoid this?" Sure i do. But i'm VISIBLE. If what u said is correct. U are insinuating that i can, stealth+LA+LB one shot someone, pop ITC, and continue to kill everyone else in the vicinity.....are they..."special"? Are they somehow just standing still allowing me to do all this? Or am I "SPECIAL", not using the itc timing to get the hell outta dodge after oneshotting someone?
That is why i suggested #2 on my suggestion. Somethings gotta give......I may not like it, but something HAS to be sacrificed to the crying masses. Rather than it being a skill which tr's use in PVE more than pvp.....Might as well modify a skill that caused the crying in the first place and not hurt the class so much in other aspects too.
Thats what this thread is all about. Trying to please BOTH sides without TOTALLY ruining the class.
We are talking about hypotheticals to which better players will react differently and the situation could feasibly end terribly for the TR. Yes, it happens. Players can dodge the initial LA LB. Yes it happens. Players can dodge away and kite your ranged dps. Yes it happens. If you're going to throw all these hypothetical situations of where the scenario I mentioned won't work out for the TR. Why don't you mention all the situations happening where the 1/2/3 shotting encounter/daily rotations of other classes that require cast times won't work out? With stun breaks, dodges, lag, etc..
And as far as after popping ITC after one shotting someone with LA+LB. By the end of ITC, lurker's assault should have regenerated your stealth to which allows for more safety for range dps or retreating to reset cool downs. I'm merely pointing out what is capable with the current live version of lurker's assault whether or not someone is "SPECIAL" for dying or not doing something to prevent this from happening doesn't change the fact that it happens. I have done it on a regular basis rolling over kids in pug matches.
The current live version of Lurker's Assault is a bit too powerful in my opinion, and apparently with all the cries from folks and looking over the numbers from data mining the dev's think it needs to be addressed. The current version on PTS is too harsh of a change though.
Agree or disagree. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on the matter. The folks trying to insult or disavow someone just because they don't agree with them is pretty childish. But we're playing a game so children are to be expected.
Comments
I vote STFU you crybaby Cleric.
It's exactly what every non-Rogue class wanted. They want the Rogue class to be worthless so their class can shine, be picked over Rogues for PvE groups, and dominate in PvP without having to worry about Rogues competing with them or owning them in PvP.
i dont mind man, feel free
Buts thats just how i will roll my boat. My new build? the ones who will know are gonna be likelly my guildmates and my friends who need guidance on the game. Why would i post something on boards for the public so that a legion copy and paste it (like it was to permas) and eventually comes a nerf hammer just to remove what i did and add nothing? I rather remain silent and let strangers find their own path.
How can u take away so much from a class.....and not give ANYTHING to offset the loss?
Could be another amicable way to settle this devs.....If you're gonna take SO MUCH. Give something ADDITIONAL to the class too.
The fact that probably 90% of the rogue population probably doesn't have these enchants, yet still have to suffer this change to the whole class mechanics is beyond me tbh.
Those who exploited the game and stored millions of AD will be fully equipped with these enchants.They will not feel the pain anywhere near as bad as the honest player just trying to get by and enjoy the class we love.
Will these enchants be looked at? Very doubtful, the guys with cash to burn make cryptic a nice profit, they will not be too keen in reducing that profit by nerfing them.
This whole perma stealth situation could have been handled so differently, there are so many better ideas than this intended change on these very forums, and as stated above perma stealth will still be achievable even if this change goes through.
Because then it would be considered balancing if they buffed something to offset the nerfs.
Cryptic doesn't balance. They just blindly nerf entire classes to the ground.
#1. Not being in stealth
#2. Having a lower crit chance
lmfao what class am I playing again? Bad game design is bad.
Hey! I play a GF as well!
When they nerfed devoted clerics they nerfed astral seal even though AS was not really why people were dual clericing, what they probably do is they data-mine 1-3 skills are used more the all the rest and they evaluate why these skills are more appealing and nerf those. since LA DF and COS were both in a lot of executioner AND perma-stelth builds, those powers were your top contenders for nerfing.
Notice that powers like Bait and switch, impossible to catch, and bloodbath which were used more in PVP and Perma-stealth builds but not well liked for executioner were not even touched. I suspect PWE doesn't even really look at the forum for this type of advice due to how many people do them in a negative trollish fashion.
Though I have noticed a lot of forum ideas do get through. but it seems to mainly be the positive idea threads that seem to make a difference. This is actually a well done constructive thread but the title sounds trolly so it probably wont get as much of a response as others.
basic thing to avoid that I see in 80% of the threads wanting changes is the premise of bargaining or trade. if they don't do something here we will get something we want. if they nerf bait and switch they ARENT going to unnerf lurkers assault. they are going to nerf bait and switch AS WELL. Even if your ideas are a good solution that doesn't hamper PVE as much.
our best hope is that even the fan-bois and care-bears like me are saying this nerf is over the top. so lets hope that they see reason and moderate this nerf a bit. but over all I don't think they were trying to nerf stealth at all its just a side effect. if
of course there is nothing wrong with pushing your ow agenda if you want perma-stealth nerfed as well that's fine.... I've been trying to press for flanking bonuses to be buffed to give a more defined roll for rogues in a team.
I do too. I successfully counter perma stealth rogues as a rogue, and a Guardian Fighter.
The thing is, with DCs, Cryptic were right, and we were wrong*. DC is ten times more fun to play now, unless you're one of those people who needed to shield stack as a crutch. In a busy fight, you need to pay a bit of attention, and "paper over the crack" of five seconds or so before you can cast Astral shield, but it's perfectly doable- especially since you now aren't tanking all of the mobs all of the time (unless your GF and CW are terrible).
Yes, if you needed shield stacking because you were a bad player, this won't mollify you. Similar themes may well emerge with the big and overdue TR nerf. Those who can't adapt and continue to do well will reveal themselves as hopeless facerollers who were relying on a broken class to provide an IWIN button to cover their lack of skill. The good players will still be useful. This will be true whether or not these nerfs are reined in a bit, or made more severe, eventually. The wheat will be separated from the chaff- and goodness me, there is a lot of very tweenragey chaff out there right now.
*I know, right? Bottle it.
I shelved my DC (If you must know) because you are pretty much forced in to a cookie cutter build to be a healing cleric, there is not much deviation. I can play him just fine, its just boring. Its one of the reasons I liked rogue, you were not forced in to cookie cutter builds, but them nerfing stealth as a whole is the core mechanic of the class. Then add the previous nerfs and more current nerfs on top of all this.
Just imagine your DC getting another nerf and your encounter powers cost double the divinity meanwhile you generate less AP from your at will attacks and sunburst AP generation was halved. Oh, almost forgot, and imagine your Hammer of Fate damage being reduced 60% and The effectiveness of Hallowed Ground (or the like) being reduced by 50%
Then you might have a good idea what this nerf means to rogues.
THIS ^^
Exactly what i pointed
Whoa someone seems a bit upset. Since we're continuing the trend of hypotheticals 1.) When I pop my lurker's assault. I am fully aware of what classes are around me and popping ITC works wonders for preventing LA's interruption until you can reenter stealth. 2.) When did I say they didn't? Just because they have less access to their daily doesn't mean they deserve a daily that's capable of destroying 2+ people with ease. 3.) That was my point. Comparing encounter/daily rotations of other classes that require multiple cast times to "one shot" people versus stealth, lurkers assault, lashing blade, 1 dead (how long was that cast time?), impossible to catch, impact shotx3 or just cos at least 1 more dead. All in what, 12s? So by the logic of saying other class rotations utilizing their daily is 1/2/3 shotting someone. I on a regular basis 1/2/3 shot multiple people in duration of LA.
You seem rather irate that I play a rogue as well as a CW and understand aspects of the class are a bit much. I'm not "one of you" because I play a CW also?
BTW if you bothered learn anything in school. They sometimes teach reading comprehension. Perhaps if you read it again. I'll use bold, some color, and underline the stuff that renders any point you were trying to make with your BTW statement a bit moot.
No dev has come out and stated why they are nerfing Rogues' core components and skills in a ridiculous fashion, even after 2 days of Rogue outrage and Rogue sympathizers' feedback. Cryptic's communication in this whole matter has been entirely absent, so nobody has a clue WTF they were trying to nerf or "balance" in the first place.
It's plainly obvious that Cryptic nerfs classes based on forum whiners and trolls. What did the QQ'ers cry about most? Permastealth. Of course LA+LAshing 1-shotting was whined about too, but not nearly at the levels of permastealth tears.
Regardless of what they were trying to nerf, they did it the wrong way and failed in each aspect. If they wanted to nerf permastealth, they failed. It's still possible to achieve permastealth post-patch and hold a point indefinitely if the opposing team is too dumb to counter with AoEs and DoTs. If their goal was to nerf 1-shotting, they failed in that aspect too because Rogues will still be able to 1-shot players without map awareness, enough skill to dodge and block, and badly geared players with low Defense and HP.
What Cryptic did accomplish with these nerfs is making PvE Rogues useless in dungeons. They succeeded in making their boring and simplistic PvE content even more tedious than ever before, because boss fights will now take much longer without Rogues' great single target damage.
When they nerfed Clerics, they only nerfed Astral Shield, not Astral Seal. They nerfed the duration of Astral Shield, nothing else. Stop trying to compare the Rogue nerfs to the Cleric Astral Shield nerf. They're not comparable at all. Rogue nerfs are 10x more drastic and class-breaking than that Cleric nerf people cried about for weeks and this is the 2nd time Cryptic is going nuts on Rogue nerfs.
They read and listen to all of the other troll posts and whine posts about Rogues being OP. No reason why they wouldn't read legitimate suggestions here.
If you check his back posts, he is CW that pretends he plays a rogue and then whines and complains about them how they needed to be nerfed... because he plays one... I call shenanigans.
I know. I've read them all too often. He's a whiny troll, through and through, pretending to be a Rogue.
I just got my rogue to 60, I spent a good chunk of change gearing him up, and I got my build right where I wanted it as a balance between damage and survivability. I don't feel overpowered, I'm a glass cannon with little margin of error, and I'm happy with that. It reminds me of my old EQ mage, high risk/reward gameplay rewarding careful tactics and punishing mistakes hard. I've been having fun.
And now the rug is about to be pulled out from under me, due to a bunch of vocal PvP whiners who don't even understand the rogue class and its abilities.
I've been playing MMOs since they were MUDs (yes, really) and I've seen a hell of a lot of nerfs and whining over said nerfs. I've been nerfed before, I'm used to it, and I'm usually OK with it if it makes sense and I can carry on. But I don't think I've ever seen the nerf bat swung this hard in one patch. Do the devs even understand how extreme this nerf is?
The part that really makes me want to scream is that the nerfs aren't even the right ones. Perma-stealth is still perfectly doable! One-shot kills in PvP are still doable! Meanwhile, PvE is completely destroyed, for ALL builds. Have the devs even looked at the rogue abilities and noticed how many have a "while in stealth" component? I mean, they designed the class, don't they have a clue about how important stealth is for our class? They made us that way, and now they are going to destroy stealth as a survivability/damage tool in PvE, while leaving PvP rogues with the ability to permastealth. Fail much?
I'm all for a permastealth nerf, we don't need to stay in stealth like that, but we DO need stealth to actually, like, play our class, since the class was designed to rely on stealth. Limit stealth? Sure, go ahead. Make it so attacking destroys stealth, when our attacks depend on stealth? Stupid.
And, damage? We're the main single-target DPS class, damage is kind of important for us, it's pretty much all we have to offer. And our damage keeps getting nerfed; with these changes we'll be virtually useless. We will have no decent dailies left, we'll have to resort to Whirlwind of Blades and Bloodbath, situational at best, and I guess we can expect those to be nerfed too once we start using them. Hell, I built my rogue to gain AP and take advantage of dailies, and now it's getting to the point where I'll have no dailies to make AP worth even having.
This isn't just a nerf, it's the destruction of the rogue class in PvE, all builds. The only thing rogues will still be able to do well is PvP, which is mind-blowing considering that this whole mess was an attempt to appease PvP whiners. Other than the CoS nerf (which I don't like because I use CoS a lot in PvE, but I understand the reason, though people could learn to dodge), these nerfs are unjustified and make no sense at all.
I've spent a good deal of cash on this game, more than I intended to, but I won't be spending another dime if these changes go live. At this point I just don't even want to play, I'll log in once a day to get the coin but I do not want to invest any more time or money into this game at this point: if this is how things are going to be handled then it looks like a bad investment. It's too bad, the game is fun and I was enjoying it, but at this point I feel like I've been screwed by investing time and money into a game that is about to completely destroy my main.
Ask yourself this question, who in their right mind is going to invest time and money into building a character, when the whole thing can be destroyed out of the blue for no good reason? Even if I make an alt, who knows what class will be next? I was only willing to spend money on this game because I thought that I was investing in things I could, you know, actually enjoy for a while. Now I've spent all this time and money on stuff that is about to be made worthless with one patch.
And you wonder why people are happy to see Rogues nerfed.
You know this thread assumes the devs care read/care about your suggestions.
Yeah, and the devs assume that players are still going to fork over cash, after the devs wildly swing the nerf bat at things that said cash was spent on.
It's not new to me. I saw it in Star Wars Galaxies. And we all know where that went don't we? I'm seeing disturbing parallels here, the devs have no clue about the game and are using the forums alone to tell what is going on, so the PvP whiners will win every time.
Here you go guys. Sign into the gateway with your account info then click one of your characters and you can check out the character sheet of the rogue I'm "pretending" to have.
Or perhaps the INT rogue I mentioned in multiple threads, that I was leveling up to get in on some of the lawlz before the nerfs came. (This endeavor is being abandoned with these recent announcements.)
Now please tell me again how you're calling shenanigans.
I'd love to hear more about your tears after your done attempting to say I don't play a class just because I don't agree with you that it doesn't need some tweaking.
The type of people who are happy at ruining other people's game play should not be playing a multi-player game.
This is the only longest thread with relevant info, that has not been closed or moved. I even politely mailed the devs to ask them to take a glance at this thread. If we keep it filled with proper suggestions, and valid complaints, it MIGHT get the attention needed. It's our LAST SHOT.
My apologies nukeyoo, for not answering your initial post. After abit of backtracking i realised you responded, but i missed it in all the posts.
OK. The reason why i am focusing on lashing blade from Stealth +LA. is because this is the MAIN gripe from all the ppl that were making crying threads. "wtf, i never even saw the tr and i got one shot death" It's not that i choose to ignore the other 8 seconds of L.A.
It's just REASONABLE, because,after using LB from stealth, u are REVEALED. And the opposing team has to be.....ummm special..to not touch you once revealed, you get CCED by ANY skill after revealed...there goes your L.A.
"HAHAHA Devlinne, u don't pop ITC right after u revealed to avoid this?" Sure i do. But i'm VISIBLE. If what u said is correct. U are insinuating that i can, stealth+LA+LB one shot someone, pop ITC, and continue to kill everyone else in the vicinity.....are they..."special"? Are they somehow just standing still allowing me to do all this? Or am I "SPECIAL", not using the itc timing to get the hell outta dodge after oneshotting someone?
That is why i suggested #2 on my suggestion. Somethings gotta give......I may not like it, but something HAS to be sacrificed to the crying masses. Rather than it being a skill which tr's use in PVE more than pvp.....Might as well modify a skill that caused the crying in the first place and not hurt the class so much in other aspects too.
Thats what this thread is all about. Trying to please BOTH sides without TOTALLY ruining the class.
No one who is complaining about the rogue nerfs are trying to protect any potential unbalanced factors that are present with the class, everyone is trying to protect the viability of the class in pve group play.
I meant in regards to what is currently live, which they are all referring to my supposed "whine" posts. I'm still interested in having you guys quote me my whine posts that are missing facts and containing half truths. As it stands on the PTS the proposed changes do need some tweaking also imo, the lurker's assault nerf is too harsh and the at wills diminishing stealth should be limited to cloud of steel.
We are talking about hypotheticals to which better players will react differently and the situation could feasibly end terribly for the TR. Yes, it happens. Players can dodge the initial LA LB. Yes it happens. Players can dodge away and kite your ranged dps. Yes it happens. If you're going to throw all these hypothetical situations of where the scenario I mentioned won't work out for the TR. Why don't you mention all the situations happening where the 1/2/3 shotting encounter/daily rotations of other classes that require cast times won't work out? With stun breaks, dodges, lag, etc..
And as far as after popping ITC after one shotting someone with LA+LB. By the end of ITC, lurker's assault should have regenerated your stealth to which allows for more safety for range dps or retreating to reset cool downs. I'm merely pointing out what is capable with the current live version of lurker's assault whether or not someone is "SPECIAL" for dying or not doing something to prevent this from happening doesn't change the fact that it happens. I have done it on a regular basis rolling over kids in pug matches.
The current live version of Lurker's Assault is a bit too powerful in my opinion, and apparently with all the cries from folks and looking over the numbers from data mining the dev's think it needs to be addressed. The current version on PTS is too harsh of a change though.
Agree or disagree. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on the matter. The folks trying to insult or disavow someone just because they don't agree with them is pretty childish. But we're playing a game so children are to be expected.