First...I REALLY, REALLY, TRUELY think it is time for someone from PWE/Cryptic to jump in and explain their reasoning behind making these changes. You owe it to the people who keep you in business. Maybe we will understand your reasoning and it might take a bit of the sting out of the severe blow you have dealt to rogues. Making huge changes like this and not even bothering to tell us why is highly unprofessional. To put it bluntly, we do not work for you so stop acting like you are our boss. You may dictate what happens in your game, but you can not force us to play it. Show your player base the respect they deserve and get on the forums to explain why you feel the need to make these changes. Keep us updated and let us know what is going on. You don't have to reply to every post but someone really should chime in on the hot topics that may severely impact your business.
Second...I really think these nerfs are more for PVE reasons than PVP. When stealthed all the time most mobs do not attack you. They stand there with a ? above their head while you destroy them. Honestly, I think a huge part of the nerf is because they forgot to code in the ability for a mob to see through stealth when you get too close to them. It is easier to just change how our class plays than to change the behavior of every mob in the game. I could be wrong because I don't design games, I just play them. I really think PVP was an afterthought because they just made that one shot kill even easier to pull off. Lashing Blade hits for a ton now if you use it with Lurkers and a vorpal. We will all have to be glass cannons again.
Third...If this nerf goes through we really need to be given something in return. Our stealth meter should ALWAYS regenerate when we are not in stealth. As it is now, we use stealth and lose it immediately with encounters or in a few seconds with our at-will attack and then we never get it back unless we slot a low damage encounter power. If it still regenerated while we took damage it would at least give us some survivability, especially in PVE. Basically we would have a cool down that could be circumvented by using our encounter power Shadow Strike and our daily Lurker's Assault. Shadow strike will give you extra stealth but you lose that third high damage encounter power. This will get rogues out of stealth and give them to opportunity to use their tab power again during a long fight. You can even remove the stealth refill from bait and switch if stealth always regenerates. Many solo rogues will still use it because it is a better tank than most of the companions and it refills your AP. We really should be able to use our Tab ability a bit more than we can now on the preview server.
It's been over a week (8 days) since they've announced they want to destroy the Rogue class and implemented it on test server already. 8 days of outrage from real Rogues and not a single response from a dev regarding this ridiculous nerf. Stop kidding yourselves, they don't give a rat's as$ what we think or what we post. They only read and care about the bad players and trolls' daily cries for nerfs.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
It's funny that gwf's can use their tab ability quickly, again and again, in pvp, but rogues are getting nerf owned. Stealth is now <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. They could have just addressed the stealth issue, but they totally passed that up to change pve. GG fellow rogues.
OH MAH GAW! Nerf Broke my Class I PusH BuTTonS AND Nuffin whorks! mY Steelth no regen when taking damage BUT GWF UNSTOPPABLE regen win hE takes damage. Steelth IS worthless coz i kan't use at wheels for vary long in safe tee OF STEELTH.
WHY DEVS NO LISTEN TO ME AND ONLY LOOK AT THEIR DATA MINED NUMBERS.
The majority of posts like these are nothing more then biasedly ignorant self indulgent children that have no grasp on rationality. The reason you don't think TR's need to be toned down is because:
1.) Ignorant
two.) you're just bad and don't understand how powerful a well played tr is
c.) troll that relies on op'd advantages as a crutch to think he has some sort of skill
End of the day I don't believe the announced nerfs will go through with the severity they were announced with, but even if they do. It's not the end of the world. Rogues will still wreck face and anyone that thinks otherwise most likely falls under the #2.
Second...I really think these nerfs are more for PVE reasons than PVP. When stealthed all the time most mobs do not attack you. They stand there with a ? above their head while you destroy them. Honestly, I think a huge part of the nerf is because they forgot to code in the ability for a mob to see through stealth when you get too close to them. It is easier to just change how our class plays than to change the behavior of every mob in the game. I could be wrong because I don't design games, I just play them. I really think PVP was an afterthought because they just made that one shot kill even easier to pull off. Lashing Blade hits for a ton now if you use it with Lurkers and a vorpal. We will all have to be glass cannons again.
This is not entirely true. There are several bosses that can see you even when stealthed; Iirc, all the dragons, Illithids, Elementals. And when a boss spot you, also its minions can attack you as well.
I think that stealth is (should be) a survivability mechanic while leveling and a strategic feature during the end game. One should not be able to perma stealth and yet be able to sneak in and out from stealth not just to make more damage (I would completely rework the brutal backstab feat for this matter) but especially to strategically approach to the battle field.
OH MAH GAW! Nerf Broke my Class I PusH BuTTonS AND Nuffin whorks! mY Steelth no regen when taking damage BUT GWF UNSTOPPABLE regen win hE takes damage. Steelth IS worthless coz i kan't use at wheels for vary long in safe tee OF STEELTH.
WHY DEVS NO LISTEN TO ME AND ONLY LOOK AT THEIR DATA MINED NUMBERS.
The majority of posts like these are nothing more then biasedly ignorant self indulgent children that have no grasp on rationality. The reason you don't think TR's need to be toned down is because:
1.) Ignorant
two.) you're just bad and don't understand how powerful a well played tr is
c.) troll that relies on op'd advantages as a crutch to think he has some sort of skill
End of the day I don't believe the announced nerfs will go through with the severity they were announced with, but even if they do. It's not the end of the world. Rogues will still wreck face and anyone that thinks otherwise most likely falls under the #2.
I'd like to know where do your statements come from.
You, just, don't seem to take into account some legitimate worries like, just to name a few: incredibly hard leveling (no damage mitigation nor healing), completely wrecked Saboteur paragon tree (4 out of 8 feats are completely unusable, 1 almost useless), no pve single target damage daily.
Anyway, I just hope they, at least, give a free respec.
I'd like to know where do your statements come from.
You, just, don't seem to take into account some legitimate worries like, just to name a few: incredibly hard leveling (no damage mitigation nor healing), completely wrecked Saboteur paragon tree (4 out of 8 feats are completely unusable, 1 almost useless), no pve single target damage daily.
Anyway, I just hope they, at least, give a free respec.
Just a generalization from some of the plethora of tears that have been expressed across the forums. Incredibly hard leveling?! High damage, multiple CC abilities, decoys, 100% deflect or dodge/cc immunity, ability to stealth and lose aggro while CD's reset. Yes please tell me how incredibly difficult it's going to be. More difficult then the current <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ez mode of stealth kill all the mobs while they stand there with their thumbs up their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? Sure..
Please show me a class that doesn't have a paragon path or paths where people could consider multiple unusable and/or useless feats. Some of their uses could be diminished but none are unusable or useless.
I doubt lurker's assault will be implemented with the severity of nerf they announced. Shocking execution still has its place for <40% health mobs.
The larger change to the TR game is that they won't be desired in groups anymore. Talk already is about replacing rogue in group with CW or GWF even, as rogue will no longer be highest single target dps. If anyone remembers GF before they were fixed, they could never get a group. Those GF players had limited enjoyment and experience of the game before that fix, and now rogues are facing a similar situation.
Anyway, I just hope they, at least, give a free respec.
A respec is in insult. I want the 8 million AD i spent on my rogue back.
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hosdaveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited July 2013
<<5: At wills depleting stealth meter>>
This change is brutal. Many of our feats are based on stealth. Are you going to completely revamp the TR feats as well? It seems to me Cryptic is being knee-jerk when they should have already patched perma stealth by just changing ONE encounter ability.
The company does realize that changing the duration(s) of stealth and stealth drain vastly impact the class? Please -- go down the feat line and update it!!!!
This change is brutal. Many of our feats are based on stealth. Are you going to completely revamp the TR feats as well? It seems to me Cryptic is being knee-jerk when they should have already patched perma stealth by just changing ONE encounter ability.
The company does realize that changing the duration(s) of stealth and stealth drain vastly impact the class? Please -- go down the feat line and update it!!!!
Since it would have been quite easy to make permastealth impossible by changing one encounter, that they did not do so but instead tried another approach suggests they do not want to make permastealth impossible.
The larger change to the TR game is that they won't be desired in groups anymore. Talk already is about replacing rogue in group with CW or GWF even, as rogue will no longer be highest single target dps. If anyone remembers GF before they were fixed, they could never get a group. Those GF players had limited enjoyment and experience of the game before that fix, and now rogues are facing a similar situation.
A respec is in insult. I want the 8 million AD i spent on my rogue back.
These are the type of posts to which I'm referring. Calls for the end of the world as they know it. GF wrecked people in pvp before "fixes" and those that knew wtf they were doing were putting out substantial dps. Their issue was double stacking astral shield turning anyone and their mother into tanks and also their inability to hold aggro over anything. So a OP ability of another class rendered another class useless. Much the same the OP damage of prenerf duelist flurry/deadly momentum for TR's rendered others classes with GWF among them useless. The new attempts to reign them is not going to destroy the class. Anyone who thinks so I revert back to description # two.
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
These are the type of posts to which I'm referring. Calls for the end of the world as they know it. GF wrecked people in pvp before "fixes" and those that knew wtf they were doing were putting out substantial dps. Their issue was double stacking astral shield turning anyone and their mother into tanks and also their inability to hold aggro over anything. So a OP ability of another class rendered another class useless. Much the same the OP damage of prenerf duelist flurry/deadly momentum for TR's rendered others classes with GWF among them useless. The new attempts to reign them is not going to destroy the class. Anyone who thinks so I revert back to description # two.
It's on obvious you know not of what you speak.
Rogues have been nerfed twice. Most if not all of Rogue damage abilities and survivability directly correlate to stealth. This nerf devestates stealth and diminishes their best daily power by 2/3 and removes the stealth recharge or severely reduces it.
Guardian fighters still dominate PvP but are not desired in groups outside of guilds for PvE as they have limited function if spec'd PvP as most PvE in this game is about throwing adds off a cliff.
Rogues do not need a change, peeps just need to learn how to play their class before they start crying on the forums. Nerfing destroys games, just look at the long list of vacant worlds out their.
I have spent a boatload of cash on my build as well, this is a real time and money commitment and I don't want to see it trashed just to please a couple whining CW's
The Saboteur tree is pretty much not an option at all now so it doesn't appear that the intent was to even out the rogue abilities and make other choices more attractive. Almost every feat in that tree relies on the rogue being in stealth to gain the bonus. They really should revamp that tree if these changes are going to be put in place.
Maybe they can replace Saboteur with a tree that allows me to wear plate armor. 5 points for each piece I want to wear and wearing a piece permanently reduces my stealth meter 1/4. If I wear all 4 pieces I have no stealth meter at all and my tab ability does nothing (not much of a change there). Don't give Rogues a shield though because that would make them OP. Lol. I'm just kidding......of course we need a shield too. It wouldn't be fair if we didn't get one.
The Saboteur tree is pretty much not an option at all now so it doesn't appear that the intent was to even out the rogue abilities and make other choices more attractive. Almost every feat in that tree relies on the rogue being in stealth to gain the bonus. They really should revamp that tree if these changes are going to be put in place.
The change does negatively impact on many feats of the Saboteur tree. Perhaps they could make a few changes to some of the feats to help offset their loss in utility due to At-Will stealth depletion.
Perhaps they could change the benefits of stealth related feats to persist for a few seconds after coming out of stealth, to account for the stealth depletion of At-Wills. This change could be applied to Cunning Stalker, Nimble Dodge, Expert Sneak, and Sneak of Shadows.
Perhaps they could also increase the stealth replenishment Sneaky Stabber gives to Gloaming Cut, to make it more effective at maintaining the stealth bar, now that At-Wills constantly deplete it.
By tweaking what they have, they may be able to keep the Saboteur tree attractive.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
OH MAH GAW! Nerf Broke my Class I PusH BuTTonS AND Nuffin whorks! mY Steelth no regen when taking damage BUT GWF UNSTOPPABLE regen win hE takes damage. Steelth IS worthless coz i kan't use at wheels for vary long in safe tee OF STEELTH.
WHY DEVS NO LISTEN TO ME AND ONLY LOOK AT THEIR DATA MINED NUMBERS.
The majority of posts like these are nothing more then biasedly ignorant self indulgent children that have no grasp on rationality. The reason you don't think TR's need to be toned down is because:
1.) Ignorant
two.) you're just bad and don't understand how powerful a well played tr is
c.) troll that relies on op'd advantages as a crutch to think he has some sort of skill
End of the day I don't believe the announced nerfs will go through with the severity they were announced with, but even if they do. It's not the end of the world. Rogues will still wreck face and anyone that thinks otherwise most likely falls under the #2.
Actually, I'm not ignorant. I had my rogue fully geared and doing great damage before you even registered for this game. You're trying to sound like you know what you're talking about, yet two weeks ago you were looking for a level 20 weapon. GTFO. You have no idea what a rogue is about. Posting like this doesn't make you sound smart, and it doesn't score points with anyone. You're just making yourself look bad.
As for your second "point", I was not a permastealth rogue. I can't remember the tree, the bottom one. I can't remember because I stopped playing probably before you started. I know how to play a rogue, and changes to stealth, which affects everything in a rogues arsenal, and gimping lurker's assault, which was the only viable daily rogues had left, is a killer for rogues.
If you had played the game from the beginning, you might have a idea. As it is now, you just sound clueless.
Rogues have been nerfed twice. Most if not all of Rogue damage abilities and survivability directly correlate to stealth. This nerf devestates stealth and diminishes their best daily power by 2/3 and removes the stealth recharge or severely reduces it.
I love how everyone who mentions the previous nerfs fails to mention how rogues were also buffed with power scaling better with all powers in the process of having shocking execution and duelist flurry nerfed. Being able to do massive damage from the safety of stealth with limited repercussions is devastating thus the incoming nerf. TR's best daily power was just that THE BEST in game hands down and when used properly is capable of destroying 2+ people in a matter of seconds. So perhaps 1/3 of LA equals out to only killing 1 person with a single daily. Seems legit.
Guardian fighters still dominate PvP but are not desired in groups outside of guilds for PvE as they have limited function if spec'd PvP as most PvE in this game is about throwing adds off a cliff.
How does this have any relevance in regards to my post? Irregardless, saying GF's are not desired in groups outside of guild premades for PVE is a farce. Changing some gear and powers never seemed too difficult for me to transition between my pvp and pve setups.
Rogues do not need a change, peeps just need to learn how to play their class before they start crying on the forums. Needing destroys games, just look at the long list of vacant worlds out their.
I have spent a boatload of cash on my build as well, this is a real time and money commitment and I don't want to see it trashed just to please a couple whining CW's
This is the self indulgent ignorance I've spoken of. Can't see passed your own needs and wants. Having relied so much on the combat advantages to feel adequate, you don't know what to do with yourself when you see some of them being diminished.
Actually, I'm not ignorant. I had my rogue fully geared and doing great damage before you even registered for this game. You're trying to sound like you know what you're talking about, yet two weeks ago you were looking for a level 20 weapon. GTFO. You have no idea what a rogue is about. Posting like this doesn't make you sound smart, and it doesn't score points with anyone. You're just making yourself look bad.
As for your second "point", I was not a permastealth rogue. I can't remember the tree, the bottom one. I can't remember because I stopped playing probably before you started. I know how to play a rogue, and changes to stealth, which affects everything in a rogues arsenal, and gimping lurker's assault, which was the only viable daily rogues had left, is a killer for rogues.
If you had played the game from the beginning, you might have a idea. As it is now, you just sound clueless.
Yes making observations and/or assumptions of a persons experience on the matter due to the join date of a particular account they are posting from isn't ignorant at all. It's highly improbable the said person in question could have multiple accounts. So basing your entire rebuttal on the premise of "Your accounts registration date was in July! You don't know what you're talking about!" seems like a valid course of action. Ensuring your rebuttal holds merit by pointing out that you don't even remember paragon paths or the abilities that lie within, was a pretty slick move too.
You sure got me good, brah.. You're definitely not a combination of categories #1 and two. :rolleyes:
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
edited July 2013
Dude your hilarious. Yes a rogue can destroy 2+ people, if their new to 60 and have bad gear. Again you do not know what you're babbling about. I have been completely destroyed in PvP on my stealth rogue by GF's GWF's and the occasional wizzy. It's all about skill and knowing how to play your class. Every class in this game is capable of destroying people. The wizzy for instance can one shot Draco "if" you know how. GWF'S can take on 1v5 GF's and completely dominate in PvP if they know how to hear, GF's can chain lock and 2 shot peeps if they spec as conqueror and gear correctly. Please save me your babble, because your talking out of you back end. I have personally seen all of these things happen. I am not just babbling and making assumptions.
Just because the INT Rogue smokes a group of newbs in a video a month ago before many of these mechanics were mastered, every newb thinks that's reality and their OP. Did you ever look at the enchantments on his gear? Do you know how much it will will cost you to gear out like that? I guarantee you couldn't grind all those enchantments, he spent millions in AD. Anyone with knowledge and the ability to read and comprehend can gear their toon to destroy like that. Any toon, any class even Clerics but you must have skill and practiced ability. My comments are only ignorance if they are not true. Please look up the definition of ignorance, you find your picture there. All of my boasts or claims can be verified on You Tube if you care to do a little research.
Here's a little research for you because I'm not satisfied to let you do it:
Tenebrous Enchantments: 4 Greater Shown, 5+million in AD, chance of 12% HP dmg as necrotic which = 3326 in additional damage!
Greater Vorpal Enchantment: 3+ Million in AD, 38% additional CRITICAL SEVERITY = 112% = 7317 in ADDITIONAL damage on a Crit.
As you can see with just the enchantments shown on the INT Rogue, without adding any Racial or Class abilities, the chance of additional damage and multipliers that can be done by ANY class can get nasty. And that toon is not even at max capability. But I digress, seeing the root core of the problem one must ask one's self then why does Cryptic not limit the enchantments? Maybee make Tenebrous a non-stacking enchantment? Answer: MONEY, real money. To get those enchantments, the lure of those enchantments are extreme, people are spending a lot of CASH in AD to buy them and Key's to open lock boxes just for a small chance to get them.
Sorry to bore you with facts but the Rogue core mechanics is NOT the problem nor are Rogue's the most dominate PvP class now. That title belongs to GWF's, hands down. Please get you facts straight before you start with the whole ignorant thing.
I see alotta sentences like "try to think of the game as a whole" "You can't think further than your own wants" etc etc.
Whatever reasons you have to want a rogue nerfed....are your own. Fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But can you with a clear heart and mind say that nerfing them to THIS EXTENT is justified?
Whats the last class that got a nerf that LITERALLY rendered a tree 90% useless?
Whens the last time u saw a class got their BASE MECHANIC effed with? As in gf, howd you like the mechanics of your shield to block encounters ONLY and not at wills? Or DC, your divinity depletes with every hit taken?, or gwf, u can only go unstoppable OUT OF COMBAT? Wizz your tab slot becomes just an extra encounter slot with no added bonuses...
HOW WOULD U FEEL?
It's easy to revel in other's misfortunes isn't it?
Balls to all of you saying "oh tr is crying cos their OP class got nerfed, we only think of ourselves..."
Nerf within reason is fine...but deep down you KNOW this is WAAAAAYYYY over the top and you're loving it, cos it's even MORE than what u cried for...
So SPARE US the hypocrisy....
I still have faith the devs will re think and rework these changes before they go live.
So WHO actually can't think beyond their own wants?
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
Between myself and a few other rogues on this forum and in game, we have been doing EXTENSIVE testing on many builds and tree's on Preview and Live ( I myself have already sunk 45 dollars on Live respecc'ing various builds.
I will try to put this as in simple terms as possible, with support...
I, Svetlana Anesjka of Mindflayer, along with Click and Banelorne and many others....
New Paragon Path is even broken before launch as it has elements off of stealth as well that cannot even really be put into play due to how low stealth lasts and it's limited to zero role in the class.
Taps is playing Gentlemen, the class is dead if this goes live.
Edit: great writeup Esteena but you forget one thing. The lack of stealth will now require you to face tank mobs / Bosses, if that role stays the same.... with low defense, low AP gain and a ton of pure damage aggro... With limited options to dropping / avoiding aggro / damage.
Stock up on Injury kits
Moved to feedback forum
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
edited July 2013
I'm going to try and put together a anti nerf build this evening and run the numbers but with the Nerfs they plan to put in place I'm not sure even a strength build half Orc is viable.
Dude your hilarious. Yes a rogue can destroy 2+ people, if their new to 60 and have bad gear. Again you do not know what you're babbling about. I have been completely destroyed in PvP on my stealth rogue by GF's GWF's and the occasional wizzy. It's all about skill and knowing how to play your class. Every class in this game is capable of destroying people. The wizzy for instance can one shot Draco "if" you know how. GWF'S can take on 1v5 GF's and completely dominate in PvP if they know how to hear, GF's can chain lock and 2 shot peeps if they spec as conqueror and gear correctly. Please save me your babble, because your talking out of you back end. I have personally seen all of these things happen. I am not just babbling and making assumptions.
Just because the INT Rogue smokes a group of newbs in a video a month ago before many of these mechanics were mastered, every newb thinks that's reality and their OP. Did you ever look at the enchantments on his gear? Do you know how much it will will cost you to gear out like that? I guarantee you couldn't grind all those enchantments, he spent millions in AD. Anyone with knowledge and the ability to read and comprehend can gear their toon to destroy like that. Any toon, any class even Clerics but you must have skill and practiced ability. My comments are only ignorance if they are not true. Please look up the definition of ignorance, you find your picture there. All of my boasts or claims can be verified on You Tube if you care to do a little research.
Here's a little research for you because I'm not satisfied to let you do it:
Tenebrous Enchantments: 4 Greater Shown, 5+million in AD, chance of 12% HP dmg as necrotic which = 3326 in additional damage!
Greater Vorpal Enchantment: 3+ Million in AD, 38% additional CRITICAL SEVERITY = 108% = 6918 in ADDITIONAL dmage on a Crit.
As you can see with just the enchantments shown on the INT Rogue, without adding any Racial or Class abilities, the chance of additional damage and multipliers that can be done by ANY class can get nasty. And that toon is not even at max capability. But I digress, seeing the root core of the problem one must ask one's self then why does Cryptic not limit the enchantments? Maybee make Tenebrous a non-stacking enchantment? Answer: MONEY, real money. To get those enchantments, the lure of those enchantments are extreme, people are spending a lot of CASH in AD to buy them and Key's to open lock boxes just for a small chance to get them.
Sorry to bore you with facts but the Rogue core mechanics is NOT the problem nor are Rogue's the most dominate PvP class now. That title belongs to GWF's, hands down. Please get you facts straight before you start with the whole ignorant thing.
Classic TR defense arguments when not using L2play.
My class isn't overpowered its solely the enchants that are available to everyone, don't nerf my class. GF's can stun lock and 2 shot people, don't nerf my class. Sent spec'd GWF's are the most overpowered in game currently don't nerf me class. I promise you GWF's are under the microscope. They may be escaping the nerfbat this round, by only getting the fix to their double daily abused mechanic. The major difference between those gripes and the TR gripe is that you can see them coming. They can't damage you from the safety of stealth and they don't have a daily that allows them to destroy at least 2 people in around 12 seconds.
Reasons for TR's receiving the most attention is due in part to the fact that they are one of the more, if not the most, populated classes. With being so populated they are also the most nub friendly in regards of ability to destroy others with minimum effort in regards to gear and enchants.
Achieving 3k power, 1.5k arm pen + right feat spec = achieving 25k+ lurker's assault+stealth lashing blade = 1 shot kills followed by 8+ seconds of 60% damage remaining from the daily to use as you please. You can achieve those stats using only rank 5 dark enchantments. It's not hard or super expensive to gear the TR to wreck kids easily.
You claim I don't know what I'm babbling about, but please show me what I said that is not true.
I see alotta sentences like "try to think of the game as a whole" "You can't think further than your own wants" etc etc.
Whatever reasons you have to want a rogue nerfed....are your own. Fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But can you with a clear heart and mind say that nerfing them to THIS EXTENT is justified?
Whats the last class that got a nerf that LITERALLY rendered a tree 90% useless?
Whens the last time u saw a class got their BASE MECHANIC effed with? As in gf, howd you like the mechanics of your shield to block encounters ONLY and not at wills? Or DC, your divinity depletes with every hit taken?, or gwf, u can only go unstoppable OUT OF COMBAT? Wizz your tab slot becomes just an extra encounter slot with no added bonuses...
HOW WOULD U FEEL?
It's easy to revel in other's misfortunes isn't it?
Balls to all of you saying "oh tr is crying cos their OP class got nerfed, we only think of ourselves..."
Nerf within reason is fine...but deep down you KNOW this is WAAAAAYYYY over the top and you're loving it, cos it's even MORE than what u cried for...
So SPARE US the hypocrisy....
I still have faith the devs will re think and rework these changes before they go live.
So WHO actually can't think beyond their own wants?
End of the day I don't believe the announced nerfs will go through with the severity they were announced with, but even if they do. It's not the end of the world. Rogues will still wreck face and anyone that thinks otherwise most likely falls under the #2.
I doubt lurker's assault will be implemented with the severity of nerf they announced.
If you couldn't quite grasp it the second time reading them. It means I don't believe that all the nerfs announced will be implemented with the severity they announced. You could even extrapolate the meaning of said comments as me saying that I, myself don't agree with their severity. Not sure wtf hypocrisy you're speaking of.
My comments weren't directed at those being productive in this thread and making suggestions to tinker with the proposed nerfs. And I would expect a core mechanic to be "EFF'd" with when it is as powerful as it is in this game. There is no other core mechanic in this game that provides such overpowered optimization of game play. Too many of these kids have been spoiled with its current overpowered state and being taken down a notch or two is unfathomable. And seeing their tears as if it is the end of the world is mildly amusing.
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
Classic TR defense arguments when not using L2play.
My class isn't overpowered its solely the enchants that are available to everyone, don't nerf my class. GF's can stun lock and 2 shot people, don't nerf my class. Sent spec'd GWF's are the most overpowered in game currently don't nerf me class. I promise you GWF's are under the microscope. They may be escaping the nerfbat this round, by only getting the fix to their double daily abused mechanic. The major difference between those gripes and the TR gripe is that you can see them coming. They can't damage you from the safety of stealth and they don't have a daily that allows them to destroy at least 2 people in around 12 seconds.
Reasons for TR's receiving the most attention is due in part to the fact that they are one of the more, if not the most, populated classes. With being so populated they are also the most nub friendly in regards of ability to destroy others with minimum effort in regards to gear and enchants.
Achieving 3k power, 1.5k arm pen + right feat spec = achieving 25k+ lurker's assault+stealth lashing blade = 1 shot kills followed by 8+ seconds of 60% damage remaining from the daily to use as you please. You can achieve those stats using only rank 5 dark enchantments. It's not hard or super expensive to gear the TR to wreck kids easily.
You claim I don't know what I'm babbling about, but please show me what I said that is not true.
You haven't really said anything, that's the point. Just a bunch of babble and baseless assumptions. I'm done though it's clear you just like to troll. I'm more interested in saving my favorite class so I didn't just waste the last month of my gamming time. You can take your under geared rogue into PvP if you want but you won't dominate. Wait, that might be a good way for you to prove your point, make a video of your un-enchanted TR stealth rogue with PVP tier 2 gear wreaking havoc in PvP. You might just change my mind. 3k power and 1.5k armor pen.? OMG your gonna get whacked. I don't know any rogues that spec that way. More like 2.5 recovery, 2.4 Armor Pen and the rest in HP and Tenebrous. How much can a wizzy do with Ice Shard or that Ice Knife daily thing they do? Much the same I think... Eh? And from ranged or sitting atop a pillar, is that any different from stealth?
You haven't really said anything, that's the point. Just a bunch of babble and baseless assumptions. I'm done though it's clear you just like to troll. I'm more interested in saving my favorite class so I didn't just waste the last month of my gamming time. You can take your under geared rogue into PvP if you want but you won't dominate. Wait, that might be a good way for you to prove your point, make a video of your un-enchanted TR stealth rogue with PVP tier 2 gear wreaking havoc in PvP. You might just change my mind. 3k power and 1.5k armor pen.? OMG your gonna get whacked. I don't know any rogues that spec that way. More like 2.5 recovery, 2.4 Armor Pen and the rest in HP and Tenebrous. How much can a wizzy do with Ice Shard or that Ice Knife daily thing they do? Much the same I think... Eh? And from ranged or sitting atop a pillar, is that any different from stealth?
That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. As I am welcome to my own which is apparently expressed in a bunch of babble and baseless assumptions. The stat numbers I listed were merely to point out how easily it is to attain a rogue that is capable of 1 shotting folks thus the reason not just permastealth is feeling the wrath of the nerf bat.
As far as ice knife you're looking at 12-15k if they crit (looking at approximately 30-35% crit chance if that) on a squishy rogue or cw. You won't see 20k+ until ray of enfeeblement x2 and/or other armor debuffs such as assailing force, elemental empowerment, or plaguefire. So a CW rotation of any combination of ray of enfeeblement x2, conduit of ice, entangling grasp, (all of which have a cast time besides roe x1) and then ice knife (which also has a cast time) to kill or "1 shot" a single target. While a TR's rotation of stealth, move into position pop lurker's assault, lashing blade (1 dead, how long was the cast time?), turn on nearest target with CoS or impact shot x3 destroy it with ITC being available if worried about CC interrupting LA and LA should have regen'd stealth to full in this period of time before the 12 seconds is up to allow the safety of stealth for either retreating to reset cool downs or more damage with CoS. Making comparisons of the two has been tried before and it is not helping your case. But that's also just my opinion and probably more baseless babble, amirite?
The rogue will live on after these changes, whatever they end up being...
ps if you're going to say, "I'm done" in regards to trying to prove some point. Don't follow it with multiple points that you're trying to prove. It's a bit redundant.
That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. As I am welcome to my own which is apparently expressed in a bunch of babble and baseless assumptions. The stat numbers I listed were merely to point out how easily it is to attain a rogue that is capable of 1 shotting folks thus the reason not just permastealth is feeling the wrath of the nerf bat.
As far as ice knife you're looking at 12-15k if they crit (looking at approximately 30-35% crit chance if that) on a squishy rogue or cw. You won't see 20k+ until ray of enfeeblement x2 and/or other armor debuffs such as assailing force, elemental empowerment, or plaguefire. So a CW rotation of any combination of ray of enfeeblement x2, conduit of ice, entangling grasp, (all of which have a cast time besides roe x1) and then ice knife (which also has a cast time) to kill or "1 shot" a single target. While a TR's rotation of stealth, move into position pop lurker's assault, lashing blade (1 dead, how long was the cast time?), turn on nearest target with CoS or impact shot x3 destroy it with ITC being available if worried about CC interrupting LA and LA should have regen'd stealth to full in this period of time before the 12 seconds is up to allow the safety of stealth for either retreating to reset cool downs or more damage with CoS. Making comparisons of the two has been tried before and it is not helping your case. But that's also just my opinion and probably more baseless babble, amirite?
The rogue will live on after these changes, whatever they end up being...
ps if you're going to say, "I'm done" in regards to trying to prove some point. Don't follow it multiple points that you're trying to prove. It's a bit redundant.
I think you forget the part that while CWs can use Ice Knife many times (to almost freely) during a pvp match thank to their natural high AP recovery while rogues would only be able to use LA (a daily not encounter) very few times a match due to their natural low AP recovery.
Therefore, "LA is a part of rogues' rotation" is a very wrong assumption you made there. LA is more like a limited tactical doping to conquer a heavy guarded node.
I think you forget the part that while CWs can use Ice Knife many times (to almost freely) during a pvp match thank to their natural high AP recovery while rogues would only be able to use LA (a daily not encounter) very few times a match due to their natural low AP recovery.
Therefore, "LA is a part of rogues' rotation" is a very wrong assumption you made there. LA is more like a limited tactical doping to conquer a heavy guarded node.
FYI, LA lasts for 10 seconds.
I haven't forgotten anything. When did I say LA was an encounter? The topic of conversation was a daily (ice knife) being used in a rotation to "one shot" and I was merely explaining the TR's equivalent and the rather large differences between the two. Ice knife is little more then a chill strike on steroids unless you can get some sort of debuffing rotation + CC to land it. Otherwise this "freely" used daily hits for around how much a stealthed lashing blade does IF IK crits at 30-35% chance.
You can call LA whatever you like. Does not change the fact that depending on spec and the amount of combat the rogue is taking part in, it is available anywhere from 2-4+ times. So calling it some sort of limited tactical doping to conquer a heavy guarded node, doesn't change the fact that it is used in concurrence with other abilities aka rotation. So I guess one could say that my "assumption" is not very wrong at all since there was no rhetoric regarding frequency.
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
edited July 2013
Don't bother, he won't listen and doesn't know what can be achieved by any class otherwise he would know that a Wizzy can one shot anyone with any amount of Defense with enough chill stacks save up and about 2400 armor pen. His sole basis for anything is, I don't care the nerf bat is comming... Typical kid antics.
I believe the point or assumption was made somewhere along the way that the servers were over populated with rogues? While I fail to see that personally, the argument can be made, why would you want to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off the majority of your paying customers and how many do you think will leave if you do?
I just got my perverbial <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> handed to me twice in PvP this evening on my OP stealth rogue. A Cleric with Soulshard backed up by a GF. I don't have any Tenebrous, or Vorpal enhancements and cannot do what the claims are be made we can do. You have to be totally twinked out and human. That's the only way you can do what the do in the INT Rogue video.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
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Second...I really think these nerfs are more for PVE reasons than PVP. When stealthed all the time most mobs do not attack you. They stand there with a ? above their head while you destroy them. Honestly, I think a huge part of the nerf is because they forgot to code in the ability for a mob to see through stealth when you get too close to them. It is easier to just change how our class plays than to change the behavior of every mob in the game. I could be wrong because I don't design games, I just play them. I really think PVP was an afterthought because they just made that one shot kill even easier to pull off. Lashing Blade hits for a ton now if you use it with Lurkers and a vorpal. We will all have to be glass cannons again.
Third...If this nerf goes through we really need to be given something in return. Our stealth meter should ALWAYS regenerate when we are not in stealth. As it is now, we use stealth and lose it immediately with encounters or in a few seconds with our at-will attack and then we never get it back unless we slot a low damage encounter power. If it still regenerated while we took damage it would at least give us some survivability, especially in PVE. Basically we would have a cool down that could be circumvented by using our encounter power Shadow Strike and our daily Lurker's Assault. Shadow strike will give you extra stealth but you lose that third high damage encounter power. This will get rogues out of stealth and give them to opportunity to use their tab power again during a long fight. You can even remove the stealth refill from bait and switch if stealth always regenerates. Many solo rogues will still use it because it is a better tank than most of the companions and it refills your AP. We really should be able to use our Tab ability a bit more than we can now on the preview server.
WHY DEVS NO LISTEN TO ME AND ONLY LOOK AT THEIR DATA MINED NUMBERS.
The majority of posts like these are nothing more then biasedly ignorant self indulgent children that have no grasp on rationality. The reason you don't think TR's need to be toned down is because:
1.) Ignorant
two.) you're just bad and don't understand how powerful a well played tr is
c.) troll that relies on op'd advantages as a crutch to think he has some sort of skill
End of the day I don't believe the announced nerfs will go through with the severity they were announced with, but even if they do. It's not the end of the world. Rogues will still wreck face and anyone that thinks otherwise most likely falls under the #2.
This is not entirely true. There are several bosses that can see you even when stealthed; Iirc, all the dragons, Illithids, Elementals. And when a boss spot you, also its minions can attack you as well.
I think that stealth is (should be) a survivability mechanic while leveling and a strategic feature during the end game. One should not be able to perma stealth and yet be able to sneak in and out from stealth not just to make more damage (I would completely rework the brutal backstab feat for this matter) but especially to strategically approach to the battle field.
I'd like to know where do your statements come from.
You, just, don't seem to take into account some legitimate worries like, just to name a few: incredibly hard leveling (no damage mitigation nor healing), completely wrecked Saboteur paragon tree (4 out of 8 feats are completely unusable, 1 almost useless), no pve single target damage daily.
Anyway, I just hope they, at least, give a free respec.
agreed, thats the least reasonable thing they can do, but still, think im gonna be disappointed
Just a generalization from some of the plethora of tears that have been expressed across the forums. Incredibly hard leveling?! High damage, multiple CC abilities, decoys, 100% deflect or dodge/cc immunity, ability to stealth and lose aggro while CD's reset. Yes please tell me how incredibly difficult it's going to be. More difficult then the current <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ez mode of stealth kill all the mobs while they stand there with their thumbs up their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? Sure..
Please show me a class that doesn't have a paragon path or paths where people could consider multiple unusable and/or useless feats. Some of their uses could be diminished but none are unusable or useless.
I doubt lurker's assault will be implemented with the severity of nerf they announced. Shocking execution still has its place for <40% health mobs.
A respec is in insult. I want the 8 million AD i spent on my rogue back.
This change is brutal. Many of our feats are based on stealth. Are you going to completely revamp the TR feats as well? It seems to me Cryptic is being knee-jerk when they should have already patched perma stealth by just changing ONE encounter ability.
The company does realize that changing the duration(s) of stealth and stealth drain vastly impact the class? Please -- go down the feat line and update it!!!!
Since it would have been quite easy to make permastealth impossible by changing one encounter, that they did not do so but instead tried another approach suggests they do not want to make permastealth impossible.
These are the type of posts to which I'm referring. Calls for the end of the world as they know it. GF wrecked people in pvp before "fixes" and those that knew wtf they were doing were putting out substantial dps. Their issue was double stacking astral shield turning anyone and their mother into tanks and also their inability to hold aggro over anything. So a OP ability of another class rendered another class useless. Much the same the OP damage of prenerf duelist flurry/deadly momentum for TR's rendered others classes with GWF among them useless. The new attempts to reign them is not going to destroy the class. Anyone who thinks so I revert back to description # two.
It's on obvious you know not of what you speak.
Rogues have been nerfed twice. Most if not all of Rogue damage abilities and survivability directly correlate to stealth. This nerf devestates stealth and diminishes their best daily power by 2/3 and removes the stealth recharge or severely reduces it.
Guardian fighters still dominate PvP but are not desired in groups outside of guilds for PvE as they have limited function if spec'd PvP as most PvE in this game is about throwing adds off a cliff.
Rogues do not need a change, peeps just need to learn how to play their class before they start crying on the forums. Nerfing destroys games, just look at the long list of vacant worlds out their.
I have spent a boatload of cash on my build as well, this is a real time and money commitment and I don't want to see it trashed just to please a couple whining CW's
Maybe they can replace Saboteur with a tree that allows me to wear plate armor. 5 points for each piece I want to wear and wearing a piece permanently reduces my stealth meter 1/4. If I wear all 4 pieces I have no stealth meter at all and my tab ability does nothing (not much of a change there). Don't give Rogues a shield though because that would make them OP. Lol. I'm just kidding......of course we need a shield too. It wouldn't be fair if we didn't get one.
The change does negatively impact on many feats of the Saboteur tree. Perhaps they could make a few changes to some of the feats to help offset their loss in utility due to At-Will stealth depletion.
Perhaps they could change the benefits of stealth related feats to persist for a few seconds after coming out of stealth, to account for the stealth depletion of At-Wills. This change could be applied to Cunning Stalker, Nimble Dodge, Expert Sneak, and Sneak of Shadows.
Perhaps they could also increase the stealth replenishment Sneaky Stabber gives to Gloaming Cut, to make it more effective at maintaining the stealth bar, now that At-Wills constantly deplete it.
By tweaking what they have, they may be able to keep the Saboteur tree attractive.
Actually, I'm not ignorant. I had my rogue fully geared and doing great damage before you even registered for this game. You're trying to sound like you know what you're talking about, yet two weeks ago you were looking for a level 20 weapon. GTFO. You have no idea what a rogue is about. Posting like this doesn't make you sound smart, and it doesn't score points with anyone. You're just making yourself look bad.
As for your second "point", I was not a permastealth rogue. I can't remember the tree, the bottom one. I can't remember because I stopped playing probably before you started. I know how to play a rogue, and changes to stealth, which affects everything in a rogues arsenal, and gimping lurker's assault, which was the only viable daily rogues had left, is a killer for rogues.
If you had played the game from the beginning, you might have a idea. As it is now, you just sound clueless.
I love how everyone who mentions the previous nerfs fails to mention how rogues were also buffed with power scaling better with all powers in the process of having shocking execution and duelist flurry nerfed. Being able to do massive damage from the safety of stealth with limited repercussions is devastating thus the incoming nerf. TR's best daily power was just that THE BEST in game hands down and when used properly is capable of destroying 2+ people in a matter of seconds. So perhaps 1/3 of LA equals out to only killing 1 person with a single daily. Seems legit.
How does this have any relevance in regards to my post? Irregardless, saying GF's are not desired in groups outside of guild premades for PVE is a farce. Changing some gear and powers never seemed too difficult for me to transition between my pvp and pve setups.
This is the self indulgent ignorance I've spoken of. Can't see passed your own needs and wants. Having relied so much on the combat advantages to feel adequate, you don't know what to do with yourself when you see some of them being diminished.
I
Yes making observations and/or assumptions of a persons experience on the matter due to the join date of a particular account they are posting from isn't ignorant at all. It's highly improbable the said person in question could have multiple accounts. So basing your entire rebuttal on the premise of "Your accounts registration date was in July! You don't know what you're talking about!" seems like a valid course of action. Ensuring your rebuttal holds merit by pointing out that you don't even remember paragon paths or the abilities that lie within, was a pretty slick move too.
You sure got me good, brah.. You're definitely not a combination of categories #1 and two. :rolleyes:
Just because the INT Rogue smokes a group of newbs in a video a month ago before many of these mechanics were mastered, every newb thinks that's reality and their OP. Did you ever look at the enchantments on his gear? Do you know how much it will will cost you to gear out like that? I guarantee you couldn't grind all those enchantments, he spent millions in AD. Anyone with knowledge and the ability to read and comprehend can gear their toon to destroy like that. Any toon, any class even Clerics but you must have skill and practiced ability. My comments are only ignorance if they are not true. Please look up the definition of ignorance, you find your picture there. All of my boasts or claims can be verified on You Tube if you care to do a little research.
Here's a little research for you because I'm not satisfied to let you do it:
INT Rogue: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?324111-Build-Guide-quot-INT-Rogue-quot-Perma-Stealth-Build
HP:27,718
Tenebrous Enchantments: 4 Greater Shown, 5+million in AD, chance of 12% HP dmg as necrotic which = 3326 in additional damage!
Greater Vorpal Enchantment: 3+ Million in AD, 38% additional CRITICAL SEVERITY = 112% = 7317 in ADDITIONAL damage on a Crit.
As you can see with just the enchantments shown on the INT Rogue, without adding any Racial or Class abilities, the chance of additional damage and multipliers that can be done by ANY class can get nasty. And that toon is not even at max capability. But I digress, seeing the root core of the problem one must ask one's self then why does Cryptic not limit the enchantments? Maybee make Tenebrous a non-stacking enchantment? Answer: MONEY, real money. To get those enchantments, the lure of those enchantments are extreme, people are spending a lot of CASH in AD to buy them and Key's to open lock boxes just for a small chance to get them.
Sorry to bore you with facts but the Rogue core mechanics is NOT the problem nor are Rogue's the most dominate PvP class now. That title belongs to GWF's, hands down. Please get you facts straight before you start with the whole ignorant thing.
Whatever reasons you have to want a rogue nerfed....are your own. Fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But can you with a clear heart and mind say that nerfing them to THIS EXTENT is justified?
Whats the last class that got a nerf that LITERALLY rendered a tree 90% useless?
Whens the last time u saw a class got their BASE MECHANIC effed with? As in gf, howd you like the mechanics of your shield to block encounters ONLY and not at wills? Or DC, your divinity depletes with every hit taken?, or gwf, u can only go unstoppable OUT OF COMBAT? Wizz your tab slot becomes just an extra encounter slot with no added bonuses...
HOW WOULD U FEEL?
It's easy to revel in other's misfortunes isn't it?
Balls to all of you saying "oh tr is crying cos their OP class got nerfed, we only think of ourselves..."
Nerf within reason is fine...but deep down you KNOW this is WAAAAAYYYY over the top and you're loving it, cos it's even MORE than what u cried for...
So SPARE US the hypocrisy....
I still have faith the devs will re think and rework these changes before they go live.
So WHO actually can't think beyond their own wants?
Moved to feedback forum
Classic TR defense arguments when not using L2play.
My class isn't overpowered its solely the enchants that are available to everyone, don't nerf my class. GF's can stun lock and 2 shot people, don't nerf my class. Sent spec'd GWF's are the most overpowered in game currently don't nerf me class. I promise you GWF's are under the microscope. They may be escaping the nerfbat this round, by only getting the fix to their double daily abused mechanic. The major difference between those gripes and the TR gripe is that you can see them coming. They can't damage you from the safety of stealth and they don't have a daily that allows them to destroy at least 2 people in around 12 seconds.
Reasons for TR's receiving the most attention is due in part to the fact that they are one of the more, if not the most, populated classes. With being so populated they are also the most nub friendly in regards of ability to destroy others with minimum effort in regards to gear and enchants.
Achieving 3k power, 1.5k arm pen + right feat spec = achieving 25k+ lurker's assault+stealth lashing blade = 1 shot kills followed by 8+ seconds of 60% damage remaining from the daily to use as you please. You can achieve those stats using only rank 5 dark enchantments. It's not hard or super expensive to gear the TR to wreck kids easily.
You claim I don't know what I'm babbling about, but please show me what I said that is not true.
If you couldn't quite grasp it the second time reading them. It means I don't believe that all the nerfs announced will be implemented with the severity they announced. You could even extrapolate the meaning of said comments as me saying that I, myself don't agree with their severity. Not sure wtf hypocrisy you're speaking of.
My comments weren't directed at those being productive in this thread and making suggestions to tinker with the proposed nerfs. And I would expect a core mechanic to be "EFF'd" with when it is as powerful as it is in this game. There is no other core mechanic in this game that provides such overpowered optimization of game play. Too many of these kids have been spoiled with its current overpowered state and being taken down a notch or two is unfathomable. And seeing their tears as if it is the end of the world is mildly amusing.
You haven't really said anything, that's the point. Just a bunch of babble and baseless assumptions. I'm done though it's clear you just like to troll. I'm more interested in saving my favorite class so I didn't just waste the last month of my gamming time. You can take your under geared rogue into PvP if you want but you won't dominate. Wait, that might be a good way for you to prove your point, make a video of your un-enchanted TR stealth rogue with PVP tier 2 gear wreaking havoc in PvP. You might just change my mind. 3k power and 1.5k armor pen.? OMG your gonna get whacked. I don't know any rogues that spec that way. More like 2.5 recovery, 2.4 Armor Pen and the rest in HP and Tenebrous. How much can a wizzy do with Ice Shard or that Ice Knife daily thing they do? Much the same I think... Eh? And from ranged or sitting atop a pillar, is that any different from stealth?
That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. As I am welcome to my own which is apparently expressed in a bunch of babble and baseless assumptions. The stat numbers I listed were merely to point out how easily it is to attain a rogue that is capable of 1 shotting folks thus the reason not just permastealth is feeling the wrath of the nerf bat.
As far as ice knife you're looking at 12-15k if they crit (looking at approximately 30-35% crit chance if that) on a squishy rogue or cw. You won't see 20k+ until ray of enfeeblement x2 and/or other armor debuffs such as assailing force, elemental empowerment, or plaguefire. So a CW rotation of any combination of ray of enfeeblement x2, conduit of ice, entangling grasp, (all of which have a cast time besides roe x1) and then ice knife (which also has a cast time) to kill or "1 shot" a single target. While a TR's rotation of stealth, move into position pop lurker's assault, lashing blade (1 dead, how long was the cast time?), turn on nearest target with CoS or impact shot x3 destroy it with ITC being available if worried about CC interrupting LA and LA should have regen'd stealth to full in this period of time before the 12 seconds is up to allow the safety of stealth for either retreating to reset cool downs or more damage with CoS. Making comparisons of the two has been tried before and it is not helping your case. But that's also just my opinion and probably more baseless babble, amirite?
The rogue will live on after these changes, whatever they end up being...
ps if you're going to say, "I'm done" in regards to trying to prove some point. Don't follow it with multiple points that you're trying to prove. It's a bit redundant.
I think you forget the part that while CWs can use Ice Knife many times (to almost freely) during a pvp match thank to their natural high AP recovery while rogues would only be able to use LA (a daily not encounter) very few times a match due to their natural low AP recovery.
Therefore, "LA is a part of rogues' rotation" is a very wrong assumption you made there. LA is more like a limited tactical doping to conquer a heavy guarded node.
FYI, LA lasts for 10 seconds.
I haven't forgotten anything. When did I say LA was an encounter? The topic of conversation was a daily (ice knife) being used in a rotation to "one shot" and I was merely explaining the TR's equivalent and the rather large differences between the two. Ice knife is little more then a chill strike on steroids unless you can get some sort of debuffing rotation + CC to land it. Otherwise this "freely" used daily hits for around how much a stealthed lashing blade does IF IK crits at 30-35% chance.
You can call LA whatever you like. Does not change the fact that depending on spec and the amount of combat the rogue is taking part in, it is available anywhere from 2-4+ times. So calling it some sort of limited tactical doping to conquer a heavy guarded node, doesn't change the fact that it is used in concurrence with other abilities aka rotation. So I guess one could say that my "assumption" is not very wrong at all since there was no rhetoric regarding frequency.
I believe the point or assumption was made somewhere along the way that the servers were over populated with rogues? While I fail to see that personally, the argument can be made, why would you want to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off the majority of your paying customers and how many do you think will leave if you do?
I just got my perverbial <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> handed to me twice in PvP this evening on my OP stealth rogue. A Cleric with Soulshard backed up by a GF. I don't have any Tenebrous, or Vorpal enhancements and cannot do what the claims are be made we can do. You have to be totally twinked out and human. That's the only way you can do what the do in the INT Rogue video.