As the one who created the Perma-Stealth Build, I'll give my 2 cents on the topic regarding alternative ways that will nerf/fix it rather then hurting the entire TR class.
1. A simple way that will stop Perma-Stealthing would be increasing Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike cool down by 2 or 3 seconds, with this they will not be able to do full rotations for refilling Stealth.
2. Another way would be making Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch not refill stealth 100%. This would definitely stop Perma-Stealthing.
Excellent. The inventor him/herself.
Let him/her tell you.
WILL these changes make the tr UNABLE to go permastealth? I'm not talking about killing someone while in stealth. I'm talking about being ABLE to perma stealth and sit on an enemy point, or run through a dungeoun in stealth.
Lets hear it from the MAN/WOMAN HIM/HERSELF.
If my calculations are corret......WHAT FIX TO PERMA STEALTH???
One or the other will definitely make the TR unable to go Perma-Stealth and when I mean Perma-Stealth I'm talking about remaining in stealth 100% of the time.
When creating a true Perma-Stealth rogue, it relied on INT because Recovery alone wasn't enough to reduce the Cool Down of Bait and Switch. Now then, with INT and Recovery working together you'd want to get Bait and Switch down to 20 Seconds Cool Down (You can get it down to 19 Seconds and anything below that is nearly impossible or unreasonable) Adding 2 or 3 seconds to the cool down would mean it would require an insane amount of Recovery on top of 20 INT (Max INT). And because of this you will not be able to remain in stealth 100% of the time.
Second point, making Bait and Switch or/and Shadow Strike not refill 100% of Stealth. The way Perma-Stealth works is by alternating between two Encounters, Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike to remain in Stealth. After using one of the Encounters to refill stealth the second Encounter will have to be ready on time to continue the refill rotation and it usually cuts close, down to the last millisecond in order to use the Encounter on time to refill stealth (around it's 8th rotation). When your getting a refill of 100% Stealth, a stealth that last about 8-9 seconds, if we cut the ability to refill stealth by 100%, any number below 100%. I guarantee that Perma-Stealthing will no longer be capable.
My friend. Please remeber the almost went thru BOP rules that went to preview, but due to logical and constructive back lash from the players...never made it to live.
Yes they did.
roughly 50 % of chest rewards are BoP and Seal items are also now BoP
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avianbandorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited July 2013
I posted the petition initially, unknowing it wasn't allowed. It grew 12 pages in < 20hours before locked.
The problem is, we fight now and may get partial success, but next patch we get nerfed again... and again... once it's done it'll always happen. So I have a pessimistic outlook on the future of this game.
I'm starting to look elsewhere because of this. It should have been fixed in the Beta. Dev's should accept player losses if they release games before properly balanced. And also accept losses if PvP which is a small portion of a game negatively influences PvE - the main portion of the game.
So I post here in support of all the reasonable suggestions, but where will it end? A line needs to be drawn where we say no more. Stop "balances" completely or just minor tweaks. But massive nerf on massive nerf... not acceptable.
+1 to support reasonable balancing. (just hope this balancing stops somewhere and the whole thing doesn't just repeat next patch)
I know how you feel. I too am wondering, how and why a game can have it's BASIC classes changed so much AFTER beta...
For me this is totally new. In my previous MMOs, what i started to play with stayed the same with things being ADDED, never subtracted.....If some class was OP, other classes got BUFFED. There was never an instance where a class got nerfed-__-
Maybe i've been playing weirds games? I dunno. can't say the names here.
Another thing to note devs......STABILITY.
This game is LIVE and out of beta. Ppl START PAYING when they have "connected" with their toon. How do u think we as a playerbase feel? Always looking behind our shoulder as to when you will decide to suddenly turn a whole class upside down? Please give us some STABILITY in our gaming experience. Noone wants to invest time and money into something, just so u can totally turn it around later...thats abit unreasonable.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
roughly 50 % of chest rewards are BoP and Seal items are also now BoP
On preview shard? Last i checked online, i just bought a minor garnd with drake seals and mailed it to my alt....
Point is, if you were to remember, they wanted to make EVERY T2 bop. Thats not the case now on live.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As for L.A. Let us keep in mind, it is a DAILY. Also lets us keep in mind TR have very slow ap regeneration. To up this via feats, u have to sacrifice damage wise. IF lashing blade is changed to not crit 100% of the time. It would be a fair skill. So now you will have the same odds of oneshotting someone as any other char. Meaning....Stealth+LA+LB If it's a normal hit, it hurts,(Same as Chill+roe+Ice knife) if it crits...YOU dead.(same as chill+roe+ice knife), same as knight challenge +that daily gf hit, same as Unstoppable+That downward slash extremely painful gwf hit.
Feel free to debate and let me know if i'm wrong in my theory?
I play a rogue and I understand it is a daily and the speed of AP generation for a rogue. You can't really compare the current stealth+LA+LB rotation to any other classes' rotation odds of "oneshotting." By this logic I can feasibly one shot 2-3 people with one rotation of stealth, LA, LB, impact shots, and CoS. You're only looking at Lurker's Assault's op'ness with lashing blade and forgetting to incorporate the other 8 seconds of 60% damage increase.
And honestly if a rogue wants to go permastealth and do nothing but dance around on a point all day. I have no issue with that what so ever. He's essentially leaving his team 4v5 the entire match when it comes to actual combat. I only ever pug and am there to PvP. If my team ends up winning in the process of beating kids up, so be it. If players want to avoid all pvp contact and PVE there way to victory. More power to them. Your team doesn't have to win to get top contribution for a chance at getting the only thing worthwhile from PvP. The RNG rare item.
I know how you feel. I too am wondering, how and why a game can have it's BASIC classes changed so much AFTER beta...
For me this is totally new. In my previous MMOs, what i started to play with stayed the same with things being ADDED, never subtracted.....If some class was OP, other classes got BUFFED. There was never an instance where a class got nerfed-__-
Maybe i've been playing weirds games? I dunno. can't say the names here.
Another thing to note devs......STABILITY.
This game is LIVE and out of beta. Ppl START PAYING when they have "connected" with their toon. How do u think we as a playerbase feel? Always looking behind our shoulder as to when you will decide to suddenly turn a whole class upside down? Please give us some STABILITY in our gaming experience. Noone wants to invest time and money into something, just so u can totally turn it around later...thats abit unreasonable.
You make a good point. I feel the same and I'm sure lots of people do.
You spend loads of time, effort and even money possibly on a character. So changes whip back through all those hours of "work" you put into creating a character you truly enjoy playing and are to a degree proud of having carefully crafted... just to get it destroyed with inconsiderate and poorly thought through "balancing". The effect is not just now and going forward, it's a slap in the face all the way back.
We put our trust in Cryptic to great degree. It's ethical for the dev's to not violate that trust.
Look, it's not live yet... so we shouldn't act like it has happened. Obviously they put the notes out there so they can get a feel for what people think of the proposed changes. But seriously, it that's what they come up with I'm losing some trust very fast. Are we really there to help them balance the game? Or fix/complete it?
Anyhow, let's hope they read this and respond within reason. I honestly wouldn't go through the trouble if I didn't like the game.
Please dev's, we emplore you to listen. There are some great suggestions here!
Just why were they needed in the 1st place? This is breaking my confidence
Here's the full details of the Nerf to PVE rogues. As mentioned a million times this has only incidental impact on PVP perma-stealth builds. The changes on PTR as is, is like they are intended to be a pure PVE rogue nerf that just so happens to sorta hurt PVP perma stealth rogues, and not the other way around. Obviously the devs do not play the game nor are they competent at all as Rogues are fine in PVE.
Stealth Nerf: It's no longer useful whatsoever for adding damage (ie combat advantage damage or any +dmg from stealth feats which are all now useless), any attack eats it in seconds, it's only useful for activating encounters to get the bonus.
lurkers is reduced to 5 second duration from 12 seconds.
Lurkers adds +7.5% dps (@ 50% crit rate) instead of +60% dps. Any less than 50% crit rate, the +dps % is less.
Lurker's stealth regen does not even keep up with DF, it will break during Lurkers from the 3rd hit of a single DF
You can still get 6-7 Daggers off from Cloud of Steel (of the now 8 in lieu of 12 on live). Everything you could do to achieve permastealth and regain stealth while killing players from stealth is the same, you just have to be more careful and attack less because you have less daggers to throw.
As it stands, the overall effect of this patch is a 50% damage reduction to PVE rogues, GWF and CWs will outdamage a TR in dungeons, relegating TR as absolutely useless, except as permastealth detours for speed runs/skipping certain bosses/trash. They will be useless in the actual boss fights themselves, so expect 3CW 1DC 1TR (for dungeons with skips) or 3CW 1DC 1GF groups (for dungeons without them) to become the new standard.
For TRs, instead of wasting time with this patch, you should just remove dailies and the tab ability and call it a day, as that's what this patch does.
Put this post in the correct section
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avianbandorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 24Arc User
As the one who created the Perma-Stealth Build, I'll give my 2 cents on the topic regarding alternative ways that will nerf/fix it rather then hurting the entire TR class.
1. A simple way that will stop Perma-Stealthing would be increasing Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike cool down by 2 or 3 seconds, with this they will not be able to do full rotations for refilling Stealth.
2. Another way would be making Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch not refill stealth 100%. This would definitely stop Perma-Stealthing.
Like these for example. I +1 for these for the record.
(But does x3lade have to step in to say how to fix this? Shouldn't be needed. But okay let me leave that there...)
I am abit angry though.
Devlinne, i've been with you in pvp and pve. Your gear aside, you know what you're doing. I've seen it first hand. Always calculating, resspeccing, re-gearing. So why did you have to wait till this eleventh hour to suggest all these? I'm afraid it might be too late. When the influx of P.Stealth rogues outcry threads first surfaced, why did you not post then?
"It's worse when good people do nothing"
I hope the people in charge will read and consider these feasible yet not class breaking suggestions in this thread. From what i've read, there are so many good suggestions to appease both parties.
Please do seek the best solution and not the quickest.
Thanks for reading.
No need for quotes anymore. Lost City's eyes are wide open now. Thank god!b:victory
While I agree with constructive suggestions, I am not feeling #2. I also do not feel "suggestions" on "how to nerf the class" are necessary. The class was already nerfed into the ground in prior patches. Leave the poor shadow of what he used to be alone for Tyr's sake. These proposed changes are gamebreaking. There will NEVER be balance between PVE and PVP, so do not try. D&D is primarily PVE and that is where the focus on class balance should be. PVP should just be an "extra something they threw in" to give players something to do. For hardcore PVPers there are MUCH better games out there to play if that is all you want in a game.
I disagree with #2. I see why you went that way, to address the PVP crowd's whining, however Stealth+LA+LB is the number one PVE boss combination.
Devs think about Karrundax or Dread Vault as two examples. There is just an incredibly long time of boss pounding to bring these bosses down. Time is something players do not want to waste. Especially if you believe the exploiters' excuses of why they exploit. "I don't have 2-3 hours to do a Dungeon."
The Rogues' function in PVE Dungeons is single target DPS which means people invite us along primarily to "take down the boss". As it is right now (before this latest travesty of a nerf), the GWF properly specced and geared is really on par with the Rogue for this function. The GWF is supposed to be more of an AOE dps character which is great for adds. Since adds fill the majority of Dungeons as things stand this was a valid role differentiation. The prior TR nerf/GWF buff blurred this lines. This current test build will completely destroy what is left of the Rogue's role in Dungeons making it even more impossible to queue than it is currently and essentially invalidate months of game play of a lot of players. Not to mention dollars and AD spent.
I am dumbfounded that they are considering doing this. It should be going the way. We should be getting a re-buff to Duelist's Flurry because the prior nerf to this ability is why GWFs are now fairly equal to us for single target DPS.
Ok the TR nerf is a result of perma stealth rogues, ppl who feel that being one shotted by Stealth+LA+LB is unfair, ppl who feel that being taken to half hp by cos in stealth is unfair.
The above is the facts and why this nerf is being tested.
Ya think? Perma-stealth rogues were obviously a broken game mechanic...
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
BUT, this is where we are now. We gotta find a way to stemm the tears AND also not ruin our class.
If the tears of many brought about this nerf.
Perhaps the LOGIC of many will have some saving grace for our class.
Please see that this is the only way before TR goes to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.....
Post or support. but please don't rage.
Logic can used against us. If i told you what will become the next best rotation for TRs to adapt certainly abom or one of his minions would come here, read it and imediatelly ask for nerf, and if we are really unlucky the devs will include his wet pleads (along with his horde of scrubs) on the nerf before it goes live
The best we can do is remain quiet about our builds now, forget youtube videos or guides, just save them for yourselves and your friends who you are teaching to play, because as perma stealth proved, the moment something good reaches the eyes of the public, bad things are bound to happen by the mouths of those with 0 insight on a build's weaknesses.
I am abit angry though.
Devlinne, i've been with you in pvp and pve. Your gear aside, you know what you're doing. I've seen it first hand. Always calculating, resspeccing, re-gearing. So why did you have to wait till this eleventh hour to suggest all these? I'm afraid it might be too late. When the influx of P.Stealth rogues outcry threads first surfaced, why did you not post then?
"It's worse when good people do nothing"
I hope the people in charge will read and consider these feasible yet not class breaking suggestions in this thread. From what i've read, there are so many good suggestions to appease both parties.
Please do seek the best solution and not the quickest.
Thanks for reading.
Bro..... it's very simple. The first nerf came during BETA. So k...i took it quietly. I figured hey...BETA, changes will be made.
Then we went live. In my experience, when a game goes live, there is only adding content, adding skills, etc etc. Never would i have dreamed BASE skills would be EFFED with.
Thats why i never gave much time of day to all the threads etc.
Can't blame me for thinking a released game, was infact COMPLETE.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
You won't get rid of permastealth Rogues. Permastealth is still going to be viable. They just won't be able to kill as many ill-equipped bad players as before in PvP.
The devs didn't nerf what needed to be nerfed: Bait and Switch refilling the entire stealth bar while in stealth. They nerfed everything else Rogues used however, making PvE Rogues obsolete and non-permastealth PvP Rogues a little less efficient at killing other players. The devs destroyed the Rogue's primary class feature: using At-Wills while in stealth, along with the main Daily Rogues use (after they've already nerfed our other Daily - Shocking Execution - with a previous patch).
Cryptic completely ruined 2 Dailies, demolished attacking while in stealth, and killed the DPS potential of Rogues' main At-Will in PvE, Duelist's Flurry, TWICE... all the while, not addressing the main problem of permastealth Rogues that started the PvP QQ fest in the first place.
This is the most incomprehensible, heavy-handed, and improper nerfing to any 1 class I've ever seen in any MMO. But make no mistake about it, they still haven't addressed the issue of permastealth. Good PvP Rogues will still destroy their opponents post-patch, just not as fast as before. Sentinel GWFs and GFs will still reign supreme in PvP, becoming even more immortal now because Rogues will have a tougher time killing them. Greater Tenebrous stacking will still be broken in PvP because Cryptic fails at balancing that OP Enchant. PvE Rogues and dungeon groups will just have to suffer through much longer boss fights as a result of these terrible nerfs.
Like I said, I am not wasting any more time nor money for a game that's still in beta. The are gutting and castrating the TR class as a whole, and basically all my time, money, effort in to learning my class and respec'ing means <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to them. So I have 2 choices, I could waste more of my time or money by either rerolling an OP Sentinel GWF or maybe play around re-inventing my TR only to hope that it wont get nerfed and more of my time, money and effort is wasted. OR I can not play or give them money, which I have given plenty.
Old school movie Wargames quote. "The only way to win is to not play the game."
Problem solved and this will be the last PW game I ever play or give money too. Last F2P/Greed model I play as well if any different company comes out with that model. I demand better product and accountability. The other cry babies can keep this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they call an MMO that doesn't even have a raid available.
I play a rogue and I understand it is a daily and the speed of AP generation for a rogue. You can't really compare the current stealth+LA+LB rotation to any other classes' rotation odds of "oneshotting." By this logic I can feasibly one shot 2-3 people with one rotation of stealth, LA, LB, impact shots, and CoS. You're only looking at Lurker's Assault's op'ness with lashing blade and forgetting to incorporate the other 8 seconds of 60% damage increase.
And honestly if a rogue wants to go permastealth and do nothing but dance around on a point all day. I have no issue with that what so ever. He's essentially leaving his team 4v5 the entire match when it comes to actual combat. I only ever pug and am there to PvP. If my team ends up winning in the process of beating kids up, so be it. If players want to avoid all pvp contact and PVE there way to victory. More power to them. Your team doesn't have to win to get top contribution for a chance at getting the only thing worthwhile from PvP. The RNG rare item.
You're purposely ignorant to the fact that 1) Lurker's Assault can be canceled by ANY control ability. 2) It takes Rogues much longer to build AP than any other class in the game. 3) Other classes can 1/2/3 shot with Encounters, Tab, and/or a combination of their Daily... while CC locking their opponents (at far range in the case of CWs). Rogues can't 1-shot anyone without the pre-nerf Lurker's Assault being up unless you're a squishy bad player with bad gear and they have to be at melee range.
You keep claiming you play Rogue, but all I ever see from you on this forum is whining about Rogues and missing facts / half-truths in your QQ posts. You're a CW sick of a class designed to be a hard counter to your preferred class. Stop pretending like you're a Rogue and understand what we experience, because you're not one of us.
BTW, a Rogue's main objective in PvP is to contest and capture the enemy's home point. You can duke it out all you want at 2, but you won't win the game without a good Rogue, Sent. GWF, and/or GF to contest, hold, and capture the enemy's home point. So stop whining about 4v5s when you have no clue how to even win in Domination PvP.
Logic can used against us. If i told you what will become the next best rotation for TRs to adapt certainly abom or one of his minions would come here, read it and imediatelly ask for nerf, and if we are really unlucky the devs will include his wet pleads (along with his horde of scrubs) on the nerf before it goes live
The best we can do is remain quiet about our builds now, forget youtube videos or guides, just save them for yourselves and your friends who you are teaching to play, because as perma stealth proved, the moment something good reaches the eyes of the public, bad things are bound to happen by the mouths of those with 0 insight on a build's weaknesses.
Seeing as how permastealth wasn't fixed and most well-geared, well-played Rogues are still going to be able to do 20-24k+ damage Lashing Strikes without Lurker's Assault, not much will change in PvP. Abomination and other trolls will keep crying about being owned in PvP by good Rogues.
Logic can used against us. If i told you what will become the next best rotation for TRs to adapt certainly abom or one of his minions would come here, read it and imediatelly ask for nerf, and if we are really unlucky the devs will include his wet pleads (along with his horde of scrubs) on the nerf before it goes live
The best we can do is remain quiet about our builds now, forget youtube videos or guides, just save them for yourselves and your friends who you are teaching to play, because as perma stealth proved, the moment something good reaches the eyes of the public, bad things are bound to happen by the mouths of those with 0 insight on a build's weaknesses.
borgued3 don't mind i use what you said to make a point.
Developers......please take a look at the above quote.
It's not a threat, nor was it COERCED by me or anyone in anyway.
Is THIS what you want the community to be like?
Unwilling to help, guide, cos we fear we will get nerfed again? Imagine a new player coming to your game.....will get ZERO help in terms of information available. WHY? Cos people actually FEAR being intelligent enough to find a build that is good, and if they DO find it...they'll keep it to themselves....
Come on. All the suggestions and methods posted here are FAIR. They won't GUT the class too badly and they will STILL achieve your goal of bringing balance.
It's a good solution. I HOPE AND PRAY this is reaching your eyes.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
tr is single target striker so it should have few time less total damage then gwf in dungeons since gwf is aoe striker atm tr is broken and way op
Obviously you do not play the class which means you really do not have a valid opinion. Rogue's have not been OP since CBW, if even then, and have already been gutted down to nothing. This new set of nerfs renders the class unplayable and of no value to a party.
GWF should out DPS a Rogue strictly on adds. Since there are bosses, mini bosses and high powered single and multiple adds (Rimefire Golems are an example of the last) Rogues should still out DPS GWFs over all, particularly since most parties also include a CW which can toss the adds (which would otherwise be GWF fodder) off ledges and cliffs.
I felt this needed another thread. The Rogue nerfs are ludicrous. The class is already nerfed into the ground. Half the time GWFs and CWs out damage Rogues in Dungeons since the earlier nerf. The Striker is now wimpy.
This newest set of nerfs is gamebreaking. Stop it! Stop breaking the game and start fixing it:mad:.
Maybe they should roll out a second round of nerfs on the DCs and see how you like that?
That would be hilarious but they know DC's like him would "rage quit" and they maybe want to keep clerics, don't even bother with this one, they are absolutely clueless.
Comments
One or the other will definitely make the TR unable to go Perma-Stealth and when I mean Perma-Stealth I'm talking about remaining in stealth 100% of the time.
When creating a true Perma-Stealth rogue, it relied on INT because Recovery alone wasn't enough to reduce the Cool Down of Bait and Switch. Now then, with INT and Recovery working together you'd want to get Bait and Switch down to 20 Seconds Cool Down (You can get it down to 19 Seconds and anything below that is nearly impossible or unreasonable) Adding 2 or 3 seconds to the cool down would mean it would require an insane amount of Recovery on top of 20 INT (Max INT). And because of this you will not be able to remain in stealth 100% of the time.
Second point, making Bait and Switch or/and Shadow Strike not refill 100% of Stealth. The way Perma-Stealth works is by alternating between two Encounters, Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike to remain in Stealth. After using one of the Encounters to refill stealth the second Encounter will have to be ready on time to continue the refill rotation and it usually cuts close, down to the last millisecond in order to use the Encounter on time to refill stealth (around it's 8th rotation). When your getting a refill of 100% Stealth, a stealth that last about 8-9 seconds, if we cut the ability to refill stealth by 100%, any number below 100%. I guarantee that Perma-Stealthing will no longer be capable.
Yes they did.
roughly 50 % of chest rewards are BoP and Seal items are also now BoP
The problem is, we fight now and may get partial success, but next patch we get nerfed again... and again... once it's done it'll always happen. So I have a pessimistic outlook on the future of this game.
I'm starting to look elsewhere because of this. It should have been fixed in the Beta. Dev's should accept player losses if they release games before properly balanced. And also accept losses if PvP which is a small portion of a game negatively influences PvE - the main portion of the game.
So I post here in support of all the reasonable suggestions, but where will it end? A line needs to be drawn where we say no more. Stop "balances" completely or just minor tweaks. But massive nerf on massive nerf... not acceptable.
+1 to support reasonable balancing. (just hope this balancing stops somewhere and the whole thing doesn't just repeat next patch)
Avian
Beholder Shard
I know how you feel. I too am wondering, how and why a game can have it's BASIC classes changed so much AFTER beta...
For me this is totally new. In my previous MMOs, what i started to play with stayed the same with things being ADDED, never subtracted.....If some class was OP, other classes got BUFFED. There was never an instance where a class got nerfed-__-
Maybe i've been playing weirds games? I dunno. can't say the names here.
Another thing to note devs......STABILITY.
This game is LIVE and out of beta. Ppl START PAYING when they have "connected" with their toon. How do u think we as a playerbase feel? Always looking behind our shoulder as to when you will decide to suddenly turn a whole class upside down? Please give us some STABILITY in our gaming experience. Noone wants to invest time and money into something, just so u can totally turn it around later...thats abit unreasonable.
On preview shard? Last i checked online, i just bought a minor garnd with drake seals and mailed it to my alt....
Point is, if you were to remember, they wanted to make EVERY T2 bop. Thats not the case now on live.
I play a rogue and I understand it is a daily and the speed of AP generation for a rogue. You can't really compare the current stealth+LA+LB rotation to any other classes' rotation odds of "oneshotting." By this logic I can feasibly one shot 2-3 people with one rotation of stealth, LA, LB, impact shots, and CoS. You're only looking at Lurker's Assault's op'ness with lashing blade and forgetting to incorporate the other 8 seconds of 60% damage increase.
And honestly if a rogue wants to go permastealth and do nothing but dance around on a point all day. I have no issue with that what so ever. He's essentially leaving his team 4v5 the entire match when it comes to actual combat. I only ever pug and am there to PvP. If my team ends up winning in the process of beating kids up, so be it. If players want to avoid all pvp contact and PVE there way to victory. More power to them. Your team doesn't have to win to get top contribution for a chance at getting the only thing worthwhile from PvP. The RNG rare item.
You make a good point. I feel the same and I'm sure lots of people do.
You spend loads of time, effort and even money possibly on a character. So changes whip back through all those hours of "work" you put into creating a character you truly enjoy playing and are to a degree proud of having carefully crafted... just to get it destroyed with inconsiderate and poorly thought through "balancing". The effect is not just now and going forward, it's a slap in the face all the way back.
We put our trust in Cryptic to great degree. It's ethical for the dev's to not violate that trust.
Look, it's not live yet... so we shouldn't act like it has happened. Obviously they put the notes out there so they can get a feel for what people think of the proposed changes. But seriously, it that's what they come up with I'm losing some trust very fast. Are we really there to help them balance the game? Or fix/complete it?
Anyhow, let's hope they read this and respond within reason. I honestly wouldn't go through the trouble if I didn't like the game.
Please dev's, we emplore you to listen. There are some great suggestions here!
Just why were they needed in the 1st place? This is breaking my confidence
Put this post in the correct section
Like these for example. I +1 for these for the record.
(But does x3lade have to step in to say how to fix this? Shouldn't be needed. But okay let me leave that there...)
I am abit angry though.
Devlinne, i've been with you in pvp and pve. Your gear aside, you know what you're doing. I've seen it first hand. Always calculating, resspeccing, re-gearing. So why did you have to wait till this eleventh hour to suggest all these? I'm afraid it might be too late. When the influx of P.Stealth rogues outcry threads first surfaced, why did you not post then?
"It's worse when good people do nothing"
I hope the people in charge will read and consider these feasible yet not class breaking suggestions in this thread. From what i've read, there are so many good suggestions to appease both parties.
Please do seek the best solution and not the quickest.
Thanks for reading.
+1 to x3lade's idea on preventing permanent stealth.
+1mill to the idea that we want stability and not our classes changing every month.
I disagree with #2. I see why you went that way, to address the PVP crowd's whining, however Stealth+LA+LB is the number one PVE boss combination.
Devs think about Karrundax or Dread Vault as two examples. There is just an incredibly long time of boss pounding to bring these bosses down. Time is something players do not want to waste. Especially if you believe the exploiters' excuses of why they exploit. "I don't have 2-3 hours to do a Dungeon."
The Rogues' function in PVE Dungeons is single target DPS which means people invite us along primarily to "take down the boss". As it is right now (before this latest travesty of a nerf), the GWF properly specced and geared is really on par with the Rogue for this function. The GWF is supposed to be more of an AOE dps character which is great for adds. Since adds fill the majority of Dungeons as things stand this was a valid role differentiation. The prior TR nerf/GWF buff blurred this lines. This current test build will completely destroy what is left of the Rogue's role in Dungeons making it even more impossible to queue than it is currently and essentially invalidate months of game play of a lot of players. Not to mention dollars and AD spent.
I am dumbfounded that they are considering doing this. It should be going the way. We should be getting a re-buff to Duelist's Flurry because the prior nerf to this ability is why GWFs are now fairly equal to us for single target DPS.
Ya think? Perma-stealth rogues were obviously a broken game mechanic...
Logic can used against us. If i told you what will become the next best rotation for TRs to adapt certainly abom or one of his minions would come here, read it and imediatelly ask for nerf, and if we are really unlucky the devs will include his wet pleads (along with his horde of scrubs) on the nerf before it goes live
The best we can do is remain quiet about our builds now, forget youtube videos or guides, just save them for yourselves and your friends who you are teaching to play, because as perma stealth proved, the moment something good reaches the eyes of the public, bad things are bound to happen by the mouths of those with 0 insight on a build's weaknesses.
Bro..... it's very simple. The first nerf came during BETA. So k...i took it quietly. I figured hey...BETA, changes will be made.
Then we went live. In my experience, when a game goes live, there is only adding content, adding skills, etc etc. Never would i have dreamed BASE skills would be EFFED with.
Thats why i never gave much time of day to all the threads etc.
Can't blame me for thinking a released game, was infact COMPLETE.
The devs didn't nerf what needed to be nerfed: Bait and Switch refilling the entire stealth bar while in stealth. They nerfed everything else Rogues used however, making PvE Rogues obsolete and non-permastealth PvP Rogues a little less efficient at killing other players. The devs destroyed the Rogue's primary class feature: using At-Wills while in stealth, along with the main Daily Rogues use (after they've already nerfed our other Daily - Shocking Execution - with a previous patch).
Cryptic completely ruined 2 Dailies, demolished attacking while in stealth, and killed the DPS potential of Rogues' main At-Will in PvE, Duelist's Flurry, TWICE... all the while, not addressing the main problem of permastealth Rogues that started the PvP QQ fest in the first place.
This is the most incomprehensible, heavy-handed, and improper nerfing to any 1 class I've ever seen in any MMO. But make no mistake about it, they still haven't addressed the issue of permastealth. Good PvP Rogues will still destroy their opponents post-patch, just not as fast as before. Sentinel GWFs and GFs will still reign supreme in PvP, becoming even more immortal now because Rogues will have a tougher time killing them. Greater Tenebrous stacking will still be broken in PvP because Cryptic fails at balancing that OP Enchant. PvE Rogues and dungeon groups will just have to suffer through much longer boss fights as a result of these terrible nerfs.
To quote Cartman on Southpark..
"You're breaking my balls man, you're breaking my balls"
Old school movie Wargames quote. "The only way to win is to not play the game."
Problem solved and this will be the last PW game I ever play or give money too. Last F2P/Greed model I play as well if any different company comes out with that model. I demand better product and accountability. The other cry babies can keep this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they call an MMO that doesn't even have a raid available.
You're purposely ignorant to the fact that 1) Lurker's Assault can be canceled by ANY control ability. 2) It takes Rogues much longer to build AP than any other class in the game. 3) Other classes can 1/2/3 shot with Encounters, Tab, and/or a combination of their Daily... while CC locking their opponents (at far range in the case of CWs). Rogues can't 1-shot anyone without the pre-nerf Lurker's Assault being up unless you're a squishy bad player with bad gear and they have to be at melee range.
You keep claiming you play Rogue, but all I ever see from you on this forum is whining about Rogues and missing facts / half-truths in your QQ posts. You're a CW sick of a class designed to be a hard counter to your preferred class. Stop pretending like you're a Rogue and understand what we experience, because you're not one of us.
BTW, a Rogue's main objective in PvP is to contest and capture the enemy's home point. You can duke it out all you want at 2, but you won't win the game without a good Rogue, Sent. GWF, and/or GF to contest, hold, and capture the enemy's home point. So stop whining about 4v5s when you have no clue how to even win in Domination PvP.
Seeing as how permastealth wasn't fixed and most well-geared, well-played Rogues are still going to be able to do 20-24k+ damage Lashing Strikes without Lurker's Assault, not much will change in PvP. Abomination and other trolls will keep crying about being owned in PvP by good Rogues.
Incompetence is putting it lightly.
borgued3 don't mind i use what you said to make a point.
Developers......please take a look at the above quote.
It's not a threat, nor was it COERCED by me or anyone in anyway.
Is THIS what you want the community to be like?
Unwilling to help, guide, cos we fear we will get nerfed again? Imagine a new player coming to your game.....will get ZERO help in terms of information available. WHY? Cos people actually FEAR being intelligent enough to find a build that is good, and if they DO find it...they'll keep it to themselves....
Come on. All the suggestions and methods posted here are FAIR. They won't GUT the class too badly and they will STILL achieve your goal of bringing balance.
It's a good solution. I HOPE AND PRAY this is reaching your eyes.
Obviously you do not play the class which means you really do not have a valid opinion. Rogue's have not been OP since CBW, if even then, and have already been gutted down to nothing. This new set of nerfs renders the class unplayable and of no value to a party.
GWF should out DPS a Rogue strictly on adds. Since there are bosses, mini bosses and high powered single and multiple adds (Rimefire Golems are an example of the last) Rogues should still out DPS GWFs over all, particularly since most parties also include a CW which can toss the adds (which would otherwise be GWF fodder) off ledges and cliffs.
I vote put the Rogue nerfs into the game.
Maybe they should roll out a second round of nerfs on the DCs and see how you like that?
That would be hilarious but they know DC's like him would "rage quit" and they maybe want to keep clerics, don't even bother with this one, they are absolutely clueless.
As long as DC remain the only healing class in Neverwinter it will hurt everyone else just as much as it hurts clerics.