is this the kind of people that plays DnD?
the whiny *****es that cry all day long, and that at the first sign that their team isnt going to win, leaves the game <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> 4 other players, and repeating the process <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> even more players in other matches untill they land on a team that can carry them?
"You do realize what will happen as a result of this, right?" you ask.... yeah maybe people will learn to play their class, and maybe they will learn that they have to play as a TEAM to win, that they cant just run around the map and still get goodies, that they have to try to win and learn how to actually fight and cap objectives instead of being semi-afk if they want to actually get rewarded..
there should be a 10 or 15 minutes "deserter"debuff when you leave a match( and a pve dungeon but thats another topic), like some sucessfull games out there have these days, this way the 5 man team will have to try to win, instead of not giving a **** and just loose and still getting goodies for it... they are not taking away everything from you... they are just reducing the reward..
yeah and i know that bots suck, but ive seen bots killing players and capping objectives while QQers like you stay on the base crying because you have to put an effort on killing someone and ive seen some that just stand on his horse and run the map... they should fix that, but the "deserter" debuff is needed
I don't know what type of people play DnD. I've never played it. I'm assuming that unlike you, they don't feel the need to anonymously insult people on the internet and have a basic grasp of the English language and grammar. My post isn't about myself. I don't leave PvP matches when I'm losing. My problem is that the matches aren't fun. Yes, I'll stick around in a 2v5, but it's not because it's fun. It's not because I'm enjoying myself. It's not because it's a well-made and structured game. It's because even getting one kill in a situation where the odds are completely stacked against you can be somewhat accelerating. That being said, if there were no rewards for sticking it out in a game like this, then I probably wouldn't even bother after the fourth or so un-fun, non-competitive match. Why the hell would I? PWI's solution to broken PvP is to make it less appealing to play. That is it. And it won't even affect bots, because they will continue to get free glory without having to do a **** thing. It's only affecting those dumb enough to continue playing the PvP in this game in the hopes of actually having competitive matches. We're the real fools here, and we're the ones getting the shaft.
Grow up before attempting to engage my in conversation again.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I don't agree with the decreased glory for losing thing. When I first started to PvP the only thing that kept me playing was "well at least I get something (half) for losing". I think if the proposed system was in place I wouldn't have bothered.
I suspect the same will occur for many new players. And it will also be extremely difficult for people to earn T1 gear to begin running dungeons now.
What a complete and utter disaster this will be.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Originally Posted by nornsavant
How very disappointing that no one seems to be interested in making PVP more engaging and fun. We just want to punish someone, stick it to them.
Exactly. This thread has made me realize that I have a very different perspective than the rest of the community, which is fine. It's just strange because there's basically two things being suggested in this thread: Experience and glory decreases, which are already being implemented, and a penalty for leaving. Now, I'm under the impression that these suggestions are mainly designed to punish bots and afkers, but I just don't see how it actually makes sense logically. Bots don't leave matches. They don't need to. They just spend the entire match running into a wall or walking in circles around the campfire. The penalty would actually only affect other players, and these players would most likely be in a game where they can't possibly do anything but die over and over again repeatedly. And at the end of it all, these players who were forced to stay in a game that wasn't fun or competitive for them, they don't even get the rewards they would have gotten a month ago?
This is the fix?
This is what the community as a whole thinks is a good idea?
Well I know when I'm on the side of a losing argument, and it's fine that no one agrees with me, but I can't pretend like it makes any sense to me.
I think the "betting Glory points" idea is good and could be expanded upon to fix some of these issues without any kinds of penalties on anybody.
Suppose there are tiers of PvP matches. Suppose entering a match in each tier requires you to up-front a certain quantity of glory as your stake in the battle.
All new players could start with (say) 5 glory. Entering a tier 1 PvP match requires you to front 1 glory point. If you lose the match or quit, you lose that glory point. You are also restricted from entering matches more than 1 tier below what your current balance of glory would allow.
Tiers could be structured like:
Tier 1: 1 glory fronted. Your glory must be between negative infinity and 99 to enter this tier. (You'd have to be allowed to enter even if you were negative glory.)
Tier 2: 10 glory fronted. Your glory must be between 11 and 999 to enter this tier.
Tier 3: 100 glory fronted. Your glory must be between 101 and 9999 to enter this tier.
Tier 4: etc, etc.
Under this system, tier 1 might be a bit rough. But a dedicated PvPer would quickly leave that tier and move on to where AFKers and botters don't go.
So....isn't PvP it's own reward? Back in the early days of gaming, people would clamber over hot coals to fight another player rather than the AI, and back then, there were no "rewards" for that particular mode of play.
Oh, and it wasn't even that long ago.
Here's my proposal: Strip out all the rewards. PvP grants no xp. No "glory". Nothing. It is, in and of itself, its own reward.
Then, and ONLY then will the people engaging in PvP be the REAL "legit" players. As it stands, all PvP rewards do anymore is swell e-peens and cause fights about balance and cheating and all the rest. I dare anyone to put up a link to any game's PvP section of the forums that has absolutely NO whinging about balance, nerfs, AFK, bots, etc. If you do find one, then notice.....there's likely no "reward" for PvP except PvP itself.
I'm fairly certain, though untested because I refuse to rage quit, that players who leave are permitted to queue again right away which is the problem.
If they at least couldn't queue for the duration of the match then I'd be happy. That's a penalty. However right now people are leaving within the first couple of minutes to be on a winning team and that's not something which should occur.
It makes the losing team miserable.
It makes PvP for the winning team less enjoyable. (unless you're just going to be <censored>)
Nobody wins...except the leavers.
And lowering the rewards (with a proper punishment for leaving early) would solve both issues and provide an overall better PvP experience.
I agree, a 15 to 30 min deserters debuff (can't requeue) in addition to a steep drop in rewards for losing and a boost for winning would do the trick. It won't solve everything of course, but such a disincentive for quitting, reducing the incentive for joining but not participating, and therefore making winning more attractive and worthwhile is a step in the right direction.
Personally I would make it so that the daily can only be achieved if you win the game. That would really put a rocket up people's arses.
I started PvP with my first character at 60 but it was only when I leveled another and did some matches in the 50-59 bracket that I really understood why people complain about bots so much.
There are entire guilds out there that either go AFK or just run bots. In 4 consecutive matches I ONLY ran with bots on my team, the other team had 3.
And I will bet that this will NOT change.
If non-participating gives less rewards, it only means they'll keep the bots up longer. And with the teamleader now only able to kick disconnected members (which for some reason, bots never are) there is no way to get rid of them. We'll just have to ride it out as it happens.
We need better reporting tools, better kicking tools and ways to avoid teaming up with known-bots. Not being forced to sit out a match between script-kiddies.
I honestly think you learn a hell of a lot when your matched up against a pre-made team with a 12k GS. Having to play against such teams with random nubs thought me how to better position myself in PvP and how to deal with encounters. Now I only try to get in to PvP with some friends/guild peeps only. But I still do random pug PvP at times. You learn more playing against experienced players, then chickens with their heads cut off.
Lol you dont pvp much. You know what u lrn. 4 GF and DC all rocking tenes will stunlock u to death asap.
So what you learn is pay more to win and premades on TS will own any pug group.
And dont call me newb i pug pvp everyday with my headhunter title.
It's not part of the problem. People leaving is just a symptom, and penalties for leaving don't address the cause: the reason why people leave.
If someone leaves, it means that for whatever reason they are not enjoying themselves. Enjoying oneself is a pretty important thing in a video game. Trying to force them to stay in spite of them not having fun cannot have positive results. It's a negative action and will have negative re-actions. People will still not play, even if they stay because they feel force. They will become nasty, aggressive, lash out and sabotage their own team further, ruin other people's experience as a byproduct. All it creates is more conflict.
It is worthwhile for a developer to look at the reasons why people leave, and address those issues. Premades vs. randoms is one aspect, imbalanced teams another, gear differences a third, skewed setups a fourth, and so on. During Headstart, at lower levels, most games were super close. 950-1000, stuff like that. No one left. Losing wasn't really very impactful, either. It was light and it was fun. Now? It's "own or get owned", and you can tell after a few seconds how it will go.
Instead of trying to think how to punish people for not doing something they don't enjoy, I feel focusing creative energy on ways how to reward people for doing what they enjoy, and working towards an end where people do enjoy what they do, regardless of whether they win or lose, is a more fruitful approach.
At the end of the day, you cannot really force people to do something they don't want to do and expect them to be happy. Not going to work. You may end up with a situation where they do what you want, but it's not going to last and it will require increasingly more pressure and control to get the desired results. And then, at some point, it will all blow up or collapse on itself.
Humans don't work that way. No living organism does.
Exactly. This thread has made me realize that I have a very different perspective than the rest of the community, which is fine. It's just strange because there's basically two things being suggested in this thread: Experience and glory decreases, which are already being implemented, and a penalty for leaving. Now, I'm under the impression that these suggestions are mainly designed to punish bots and afkers, but I just don't see how it actually makes sense logically. Bots don't leave matches. They don't need to. They just spend the entire match running into a wall or walking in circles around the campfire. The penalty would actually only affect other players, and these players would most likely be in a game where they can't possibly do anything but die over and over again repeatedly. And at the end of it all, these players who were forced to stay in a game that wasn't fun or competitive for them, they don't even get the rewards they would have gotten a month ago?
I does make sense, here is the logic:
First understand why there are bots, afkers, and deserters:
Bots and afkers exist to gain rewards without having to play. An afk team or multiboxer can sit at spawn and have the game finish quickly, thus efficiently farming xp or glory. Two other types of afker are 1) someone who hates pvp but wants the daily and 2) someone who is on a losing team and gives up, since it makes no difference reward wise if he/she tries or not. Similarly bots are programmed to do some task like run to mid and auto attack, while the player can be farming elsewhere on another toon.
Therefore, by reducing the reward for losing you reduce the incentive for afking/botting. The lower the reward the lower the incentive, while removing the reward for losing altogether would make it completely futile to afk/bot/multibox afk. Indeed, the daily should not be rewarded for losing, because I have heard so many afkers say they are just here for the daily (before I kicked them).
So how about leavers? Well first I will say when you sign up for a game it should be played to the end, unless a surrender vote is implemented. By leaving you are severely hurting your team. Also, we are assuming that there will be less bots/afkers since there is less incentive for that kind of thing. Atm, you can leave and join up in another team with NO penalty. In other words you can ruin the game for 4 other people and then continue on your merry way. Frankly that is just crazy. A deserter's debuff is needed!
Anyway, I hope you can see that reducing rewards for losing and applying a deserters debuff are a step in the right direction to take on this scourge that plagues the game. Please tell me where the above logic fails if you disagree.
It's not part of the problem. People leaving is just a symptom, and penalties for leaving don't address the cause: the reason why people leave.
If someone leaves, it means that for whatever reason they are not enjoying themselves. Enjoying oneself is a pretty important thing in a video game. Trying to force them to stay in spite of them not having fun cannot have positive results. It's a negative action and will have negative re-actions. People will still not play, even if they stay because they feel force. They will become nasty, aggressive, lash out and sabotage their own team further, ruin other people's experience as a byproduct. All it creates is more conflict.
It is worthwhile for a developer to look at the reasons why people leave, and address those issues. Premades vs. randoms is one aspect, imbalanced teams another, gear differences a third, skewed setups a fourth, and so on. During Headstart, at lower levels, most games were super close. 950-1000, stuff like that. No one left. Losing wasn't really very impactful, either. It was light and it was fun. Now? It's "own or get owned", and you can tell after a few seconds how it will go.
Instead of trying to think how to punish people for not doing something they don't enjoy, I feel focusing creative energy on ways how to reward people for doing what they enjoy, and working towards an end where people do enjoy what they do, regardless of whether they win or lose, is a more fruitful approach.
At the end of the day, you cannot really force people to do something they don't want to do and expect them to be happy. Not going to work. You may end up with a situation where they do what you want, but it's not going to last and it will require increasingly more pressure and control to get the desired results. And then, at some point, it will all blow up or collapse on itself.
Humans don't work that way. No living organism does.
I agree with you. But what happens in a situation where 3/5 are immatured kids who can only enjoy themselves while winning? In case they realise it's not going to be an easy win in first 30 seconds, massive decrease in "enjoyement" occures no matter how balanced and well thought certain PvP match is.
Reduce ALL the rewards for the losing team (no items, something like 100 glory for a loss, make stats matter in gaining glory when in a losing team etc). Remove EXP all together. It shouldn't be there in the first place, automatically removes bots, afk farmers, etc. If a person leaves penalize them all-together (even if they win they won't get bat-sh*t, etc).
Increase rewards for the winning team so aside from being "competitive" a team actually has much more incentive to win.
It's harsh but since the player base is so divided into "PvP is breaking PvE" vice versa, implementing that much would keep the people who like PvP in PvP, and removing people who just use PvP to power level/farm gear into 60. A proper match-making service/queue would be nice, but let's face it, this game already has a lot of other things on its hands.
Not only should they penalize losing, but leaving should incur a timer where the rage quitter cant requeue.
They also need to add that to PvE. Quitting a dungeon run because you had no clerics should be penalized as much as quitting a PvP game where one side is a premade and the other side has few botters and people with bad gear.
First understand why there are bots, afkers, and deserters:
Bots and afkers exist to gain rewards without having to play. An afk team or multiboxer can sit at spawn and have the game finish quickly, thus efficiently farming xp or glory. Two other types of afker are 1) someone who hates pvp but wants the daily and 2) someone who is on a losing team and gives up, since it makes no difference reward wise if he/she tries or not. Similarly bots are programmed to do some task like run to mid and auto attack, while the player can be farming elsewhere on another toon.
Why would they care? They are still going to farm glory without having to play. Are they going to get less? Sure. But they aren't actually playing, so there's no hassle for them. The only people this hassle will affect are legitimate players, who are the ones who are really getting boned here. Not only are they getting decreased rewards for their efforts in PvP, but have the extra bonus of having to actually play the game on a losing team filled with bots.
Therefore, by reducing the reward for losing you reduce the incentive for afking/botting. The lower the reward the lower the incentive, while removing the reward for losing altogether would make it completely futile to afk/bot/multibox afk. Indeed, the daily should not be rewarded for losing, because I have heard so many afkers say they are just here for the daily (before I kicked them).
And if you are unable to win, you should get nothing. This just sounds more and more fun.
Lowered rewards, penalties, no dailies rewards for losing teams. My goodness, this is almost too much excitement to handle. Why would anyone PvE when the player-vs-player offers all of this?!
So how about leavers? Well first I will say when you sign up for a game it should be played to the end, unless a surrender vote is implemented. By leaving you are severely hurting your team.
I'd be way more sympathetic to this idea if PvP wasn't as annoying as it is now. Just seems kind of crappy to punish people who are just fed up and want to go do something fun, when you can't even be bothered to find a way to punish the people really ruining the experience. This is something that will in no way affect bots, since they don't typically leave matches. But who will it affect? Once again, the player.
Also, we are assuming that there will be less bots/afkers since there is less incentive for that kind of thing.
I'm not assuming this at all. These people farm glory to sell PvP gear/dance jagged blade companion for big money on auction house. There's no reason for them to stop. They don't actually have to play, so they can just enter PvP matches all day. It's not like they are getting tired or developing finger strain. They are still going to get tons of glory by the end of the day because they can play for hours on end without stop. Regular players cannot. Regular players needed significant glory rewards, and now they can't get it.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
They also need to add that to PvE. Quitting a dungeon run because you had no clerics should be penalized as much as quitting a PvP game where one side is a premade and the other side has few botters and people with bad gear.
Eh, you should be able to vote to disband group if there's no clerics. There's no point in running some dungeons without them.
If I'm in a group with no clerics and they just want to keep throwing themselves at bosses they will never beat, what am I supposed to do. Just sigh deeply and continue pressing "W" key forward while they continuously die? How is this fun?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Reduce ALL the rewards for the losing team (no items, something like 100 glory for a loss, make stats matter in gaining glory when in a losing team etc). Remove EXP all together. It shouldn't be there in the first place, automatically removes bots, afk farmers, etc. If a person leaves penalize them all-together (even if they win they won't get bat-sh*t, etc).
Increase rewards for the winning team so aside from being "competitive" a team actually has much more incentive to win.
It's harsh but since the player base is so divided into "PvP is breaking PvE" vice versa, implementing that much would keep the people who like PvP in PvP, and removing people who just use PvP to power level/farm gear into 60. A proper match-making service/queue would be nice, but let's face it, this game already has a lot of other things on its hands.
The problem here is that if you're the type of person who only likes to PvP, then you'd never advance without leveling experience. You'd never get new abilities to make PvP more exciting, or new gear to make it more dynamic. You'd just be using the same five abilities and fighting the same five people in the same five pieces of gear for eternity. How is this fun?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
So....isn't PvP it's own reward? Back in the early days of gaming, people would clamber over hot coals to fight another player rather than the AI, and back then, there were no "rewards" for that particular mode of play.
Oh, and it wasn't even that long ago.
Here's my proposal: Strip out all the rewards. PvP grants no xp. No "glory". Nothing. It is, in and of itself, its own reward.
Then, and ONLY then will the people engaging in PvP be the REAL "legit" players. As it stands, all PvP rewards do anymore is swell e-peens and cause fights about balance and cheating and all the rest. I dare anyone to put up a link to any game's PvP section of the forums that has absolutely NO whinging about balance, nerfs, AFK, bots, etc. If you do find one, then notice.....there's likely no "reward" for PvP except PvP itself.
I'm done. Play how you want, and have fun!
Okay, here's my suggestion. Strip out all rewards for PvE. Since it's the fun experience that really matters, right?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
The problem here is that if you're the type of person who only likes to PvP, then you'd never advance without leveling experience. You'd never get new abilities to make PvP more exciting, or new gear to make it more dynamic. You'd just be using the same five abilities and fighting the same five people in the same five pieces of gear for eternity. How is this fun?
Then I actually do PvE content? Contrary to popular belief, PvPers are usually the ones that do most of the end-game dungeons, why? Because it gets them better gear, that in turn, makes them better in PvP. It's a silly notion that a person who likes PvP wouldn't do PvE content, hell we can only do PvP once we're level 10 (wading through that bloody tutorial, fighting some rats, etc). Does it make for a "funner" leveling experience to PvP to 60? Sure does, but not when bots, afk, leavers are running rampant. If i'm able to gain experience in PvP, it's because i actually fought in it, and because I know losing nets me nothing in return, preventing AFKs, Bots, leavers. As it stands right now, the system is being abused like hell, and only a drastic change would turn it around. Make winning a PvP match gain half or 1/3 a level, let's see if people don't try to win.
Okay, here's my suggestion. Strip out all rewards for PvE. Since it's the fun experience that really matters, right?
PvP is not PvE. PvP is PvP. Please stop trying to draw comparisons.
In case you didn't read my reply on page 4 (it doesn't look like you did), here's a synopsis:
PvP isn't there to be farmed. PvP isn't there for you to grind. If the current reward system encourages you to do so, let alone to expect to be able to do so, then that only underlines the fact that the PvP reward system needs some big changes. If you want more opportunities to farm gear and AD, ask for more PvE content along those lines. Please stop trying to force or expect PvP to be a farming venue.
Then I actually do PvE content? Contrary to popular belief, PvPers are usually the ones that do most of the end-game dungeons, why? Because it gets them better gear, that in turn, makes them better in PvP. It's a silly notion that a person who likes PvP wouldn't do PvE content, hell we can only do PvP once we're level 10 (wading through that bloody tutorial, fighting some rats, etc). Does it make for a "funner" leveling experience to PvP to 60? Sure does, but not when bots, afk, leavers are running rampant. If i'm able to gain experience in PvP, it's because i actually fought in it, and because I know losing nets me nothing in return, preventing AFKs, Bots, leavers. As it stands right now, the system is being abused like hell, and only a drastic change would turn it around. Make winning a PvP match gain half or 1/3 a level, let's see if people don't try to win.
Uh, read my post again. I'm not talking about people who enjoy PvP and PvE. I'm talking about people who solely enjoy fighting other players and don't ever want to touch the PvE aspects of this game. I'm not making any assumptions about the general player you find in PvP. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the guy who literally stopped running dungeons and quests the moment he got in his first domination. I also don't know how you "abuse" leveling up. Who cares. Then endgame is where PWI gets all their money anyway.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
PvP is not PvE. PvP is PvP. Please stop trying to draw comparisons.
In case you didn't read my reply on page 4 (it doesn't look like you did), here's a synopsis:
PvP isn't there to be farmed. PvP isn't there for you to grind. If the current reward system encourages you to do so, let alone to expect to be able to do so, then that only underlines the fact that the PvP reward system needs some big changes. If you want more opportunities to farm gear and AD, ask for more PvE content along those lines. Please stop trying to force or expect PvP to be a farming venue.
These arbitrary rules of yours just seem...random, man. Who says PvP isn't there for you to grind or farm? Who says that PvP can't be rewarding as well as fun? Who is this MMO god you're consulting with and can we mere mortals possibly convene with him as well? It's not like there's even anything to buy with glory after you get your first armor set anyway. I suspect most of the bots are just selling the stuff for AD, which is fine, since there isn't any decent way of farming AD at the moment anyway.
I also think you're just plan wrong, specifically for the reason. The T1 armor sets. They were clearly put in the game for the purposes of gearing up fresh level 60s to do the epic dungeons. There is no better way to get your gearscore up. The relatively low price of these items was clearly intentional. They wanted you to spend a few hours or so, really focusing on PvP so that you could earn a beneficial set of purples with unique stats and boosts than would get you on your way to running epic dungeons. Once these glory rewards dry up, we are going to have a lot of frustrated level 60s who are just going to do the SAME THING, but take much longer. It's actually going to make the grind longer and more frustrating. And for what?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
In the mean time the high glory reward for losing is what causes so many players to AFK and supplying bots with excessive amounts of Astral Diamonds. Like it or not the system was completely over-rewarding to the losing team.
They are already rampantly leaving to begin with. Bottom line is PvPers are known for rage quitting for losing and every PvP Game has adequate punishments for it. The fact it is missing here was a problem to begin with.
Rewarding for staying rewards bots and AFKers.
Why punish the legit players ? Punish the bots - and where I am at it , implement some kind of report system for bots .
So you're saying that becuz you can't handle the bot issue you're just going to ruin the legit players experience , I suspect a deep thought process behind this .
Ask yourself , who is to blame you ( your dev team and ingame support team ) or us the legit players ?
These arbitrary rules of yours just seem...random, man. Who says PvP isn't there for you to grind or farm? Who says that PvP can't be rewarding as well as fun? Who is this MMO god you're consulting with and can we mere mortals possibly convene with him as well? It's not like there's even anything to buy with glory after you get your first armor set anyway. I suspect most of the bots are just selling the stuff for AD, which is fine, since there isn't any decent way of farming AD at the moment anyway.
I also think you're just plan wrong, specifically for the reason. The T1 armor sets. They were clearly put in the game for the purposes of gearing up fresh level 60s to do the epic dungeons. There is no better way to get your gearscore up. The relatively low price of these items was clearly intentional. They wanted you to spend a few hours or so, really focusing on PvP so that you could earn a beneficial set of purples with unique stats and boosts than would get you on your way to running epic dungeons. Once these glory rewards dry up, we are going to have a lot of frustrated level 60s who are just going to do the SAME THING, but take much longer. It's actually going to make the grind longer and more frustrating. And for what?
1. Like I said, it's just a synopsis. If it seems random, read the full post on page 4.
2. My god is called Reason and of course you mere mortal may convene with him as well. It does take some effort and an open mind though.
3. Did you really just say "it's fine" that "bots are just selling stuff for AD?"
Absence of good AD farming opportunities is a core problem here, yes. That's what I just said, isn't it? If there were better ways to farm AD, you wouldn't feel drawn to farming PvP.
The PvP set is not the only T1 set. There is no reason to assume it was intended as THE entry set. In fact, for some classes, it's better than the other T1 sets and even some T2 sets. Not to mention that T1 dungeons have such low GS requirement that you don't even need purples to enter them. The PvP set just seems to have gotten labeled as "the entry set" because it's so easy to get. This needs to change.
What for? So that people like you stop seeing it as something to grind. If it's harder to get than dungeon T1, you won't be drawn to farming PvP. You'll go farm dungeons instead. As it should be. PvE rewards are there to be farmed. PvP rewards should be a matter of prestige. They should be earned, not farmed. To the Victor go the Spoils.
Reducing glory for losing is fine, but please do makes sure that arranged groups are only placed against arranged groups otherwise you will lose almost all the solo PvP players (other than bots ofc).
Biggest reason why instanced PvP sucks in battleground PvP games.
Would love to see them go the GW2 sPvP option, jut because you queue up with a team doesn't mean you will be grouped with your team. ROFLStomping pugs is the stupidest thing ever.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
After leveling up a cw mostly with pvp, the experience is nowhere near consistent enough for someone queuing up solo. Far to many bots. Onesided games (5v4, 5v3, 5v2, premade v 3+2bots etc) are the norm rather than the exception.
Bot issue aside, the game shouldnt even start until both teams are 5v5. Some kind of 'ready' clicky?
Either way, speaking as a semi-hc player who has not yet joined a guild or joined in premade pvp group, the pvp's inconsistencies outweigh the fun factor. But then it is 'open beta'. They still have time to tweak stuff.
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bryhainMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
Please, tell me what a leaving penalty would accomplish? You would literally only be punishing legit players, since bots don't leave the matches they ruin.
Well bots do leave when I'm leader. Of course with this patch it's no longer possible to kick them, brilliant.
Clearly the presence of AFKer and bots is a grievous distraction from the idea that people might just leave the event if it looks like they will certainly lose.
I didn’t really have any idea how to deal with the bots because I was playing by PWE/Cryptic’s rules without even understanding what they were. But let’s take a closer look at them to see what can be done.
No more headcount
No one is going to get paid to keep up with this stuff, it will be exactly no one’s duty to address this directly.
Automate
Any sort of detection has to be automatic, computer based and operate without any human intervention whatsoever.
These are really the only two rules I can discern and they seem to govern everything in the game. But let’s not lose focus, bots in PVP.
Working with this I don’t see a way to really fix the problem. The automation is clearly controvertible with even the most infantile effort. The team will not be implementing any new technology. So whats to do?
Perhaps bending one of the rules will work. Get volunteer moderators for problem areas, in this case PVP. They can invisibly observe matches in progress and use existing reporting processes to make the team aware of the culprits. Want to give them more power? Sure go for it. But beware these caveats.
They cannot be engaged in the matches which they moderate. Conflict of interest, seriously this is axiomatic.
You need their eyes. Your detection systems are garbage and I think we all know that. You aren’t going to develop them into some all seeing sensor suite. Use something that already has millions of years of evolution behind it. Get some real eyes.
All you really need is a “trusted source”. Someone upon whose reports you may rely. Let all the banning and suspending and what not occur like it normally does but put a body on the problem and you can save yourself the embarrassment of automation.
And while we are on it…wouldn’t hurt to have someone reading those reports.
Why would they care? They are still going to farm glory without having to play. Are they going to get less? Sure. But they aren't actually playing, so there's no hassle for them. The only people this hassle will affect are legitimate players, who are the ones who are really getting boned here. Not only are they getting decreased rewards for their efforts in PvP, but have the extra bonus of having to actually play the game on a losing team filled with bots. .
They will care because it will become more efficient to get xp/AD from other avenues. The people who are active players will get a lot of benefit from the changes because there will be more incentive to win and so less bots/afkers. Its not a "punishment" it is a move to fix a broken system that gave the same reward to an afker with score zero and an active player. A system that let any cretin just leave their whole team in the lurch with no penalty, and that differentiated little between winning or losing. No system is perfect, but these are basic measures taken in almost all mmos to help reduce the incentive to afk/leave.
And if you are unable to win, you should get nothing. This just sounds more and more fun.
Lowered rewards, penalties, no dailies rewards for losing teams. My goodness, this is almost too much excitement to handle. Why would anyone PvE when the player-vs-player offers all of this?!.
All my toons were glory capped well before level 60. What is the point after that? To farm glory and sell stuff? Whoopti-doo. I play because I like pvp, if taking all rewards away from losers stamped out afkers/botters then I would be totally fine. The rewards do not equal fun to me.
In particular, the daily should definitely only be fulfilled if you win. Do you get the daily if you do half a foundry quest? Do you get the daily if you wipe on a dungeon? No. You have to "win" to complete those dailies. In addition, people even come out on the forums and say straight out that they afk in pvp just to do the daily-even in this thread someone admits to it, as if its just a normal thing to do. For the love of god stop such madness. Daily should only be completed if you win the match= easy way stop hundreds or thousands of people that afk for this reason. Which in turn=better pvp with less afkers. The logic is simple, but you are too focused on rewards for doing nothing.
Regular players needed significant glory rewards, and now they can't get it.
The way I see it active players will get lots of rewards, afkers will get little if anything. So you don't get much for losing, what's the big deal? You still get more if you lose but play actively than a afker on a losing side.
Look, there is no magic button to stop these people. You either completely change the way rewards are structured (totally unlikely) or create an environment that makes afking a waste of time compared to playing actively. That's basically what they are doing. What would you have them do?
While I agree with leaver penalties(as stiff or stiffer than anything here), I personally admit that there is merit to this.
The reason people do it is Astral Diamonds, much more than glory. Four matches to do the daily at 60, play or not play it's easily the fastest daily to do. On top of that, there aren't enough PvE dailies to get a reasonable amount of diamonds, meaning that four PvP matches is easily in the neighborhood of 30% or more of a persons in game "income".
Do I think knocking that daily off the map is the solution to that? No way. Rather, give more options so that a person that otherwise wouldn't touch PvP with the 1' pole from the Robe of Useless items doesn't need to do it in order to bankroll their preferred playstyle.
After that, the people that continue to disrupt PvP should be banned so hard that they can't log into breakfast.
I like the idea of having the Daily fulfilled only on a win, seems fair enough considering the requirements of the other Dailies.
As for diminishing returns of glory....matches with bots tend to end with rather extreme scores. The more it deviates from the norm, the bigger the difference in glory gain for the teams.
Comments
I don't know what type of people play DnD. I've never played it. I'm assuming that unlike you, they don't feel the need to anonymously insult people on the internet and have a basic grasp of the English language and grammar. My post isn't about myself. I don't leave PvP matches when I'm losing. My problem is that the matches aren't fun. Yes, I'll stick around in a 2v5, but it's not because it's fun. It's not because I'm enjoying myself. It's not because it's a well-made and structured game. It's because even getting one kill in a situation where the odds are completely stacked against you can be somewhat accelerating. That being said, if there were no rewards for sticking it out in a game like this, then I probably wouldn't even bother after the fourth or so un-fun, non-competitive match. Why the hell would I? PWI's solution to broken PvP is to make it less appealing to play. That is it. And it won't even affect bots, because they will continue to get free glory without having to do a **** thing. It's only affecting those dumb enough to continue playing the PvP in this game in the hopes of actually having competitive matches. We're the real fools here, and we're the ones getting the shaft.
Grow up before attempting to engage my in conversation again.
I suspect the same will occur for many new players. And it will also be extremely difficult for people to earn T1 gear to begin running dungeons now.
What a complete and utter disaster this will be.
Exactly. This thread has made me realize that I have a very different perspective than the rest of the community, which is fine. It's just strange because there's basically two things being suggested in this thread: Experience and glory decreases, which are already being implemented, and a penalty for leaving. Now, I'm under the impression that these suggestions are mainly designed to punish bots and afkers, but I just don't see how it actually makes sense logically. Bots don't leave matches. They don't need to. They just spend the entire match running into a wall or walking in circles around the campfire. The penalty would actually only affect other players, and these players would most likely be in a game where they can't possibly do anything but die over and over again repeatedly. And at the end of it all, these players who were forced to stay in a game that wasn't fun or competitive for them, they don't even get the rewards they would have gotten a month ago?
This is the fix?
This is what the community as a whole thinks is a good idea?
Well I know when I'm on the side of a losing argument, and it's fine that no one agrees with me, but I can't pretend like it makes any sense to me.
Yes master. Your will is my command.
Suppose there are tiers of PvP matches. Suppose entering a match in each tier requires you to up-front a certain quantity of glory as your stake in the battle.
All new players could start with (say) 5 glory. Entering a tier 1 PvP match requires you to front 1 glory point. If you lose the match or quit, you lose that glory point. You are also restricted from entering matches more than 1 tier below what your current balance of glory would allow.
Tiers could be structured like:
Tier 1: 1 glory fronted. Your glory must be between negative infinity and 99 to enter this tier. (You'd have to be allowed to enter even if you were negative glory.)
Tier 2: 10 glory fronted. Your glory must be between 11 and 999 to enter this tier.
Tier 3: 100 glory fronted. Your glory must be between 101 and 9999 to enter this tier.
Tier 4: etc, etc.
Under this system, tier 1 might be a bit rough. But a dedicated PvPer would quickly leave that tier and move on to where AFKers and botters don't go.
So....isn't PvP it's own reward? Back in the early days of gaming, people would clamber over hot coals to fight another player rather than the AI, and back then, there were no "rewards" for that particular mode of play.
Oh, and it wasn't even that long ago.
Here's my proposal: Strip out all the rewards. PvP grants no xp. No "glory". Nothing. It is, in and of itself, its own reward.
Then, and ONLY then will the people engaging in PvP be the REAL "legit" players. As it stands, all PvP rewards do anymore is swell e-peens and cause fights about balance and cheating and all the rest. I dare anyone to put up a link to any game's PvP section of the forums that has absolutely NO whinging about balance, nerfs, AFK, bots, etc. If you do find one, then notice.....there's likely no "reward" for PvP except PvP itself.
I'm done. Play how you want, and have fun!
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
I agree, a 15 to 30 min deserters debuff (can't requeue) in addition to a steep drop in rewards for losing and a boost for winning would do the trick. It won't solve everything of course, but such a disincentive for quitting, reducing the incentive for joining but not participating, and therefore making winning more attractive and worthwhile is a step in the right direction.
Personally I would make it so that the daily can only be achieved if you win the game. That would really put a rocket up people's arses.
There are entire guilds out there that either go AFK or just run bots. In 4 consecutive matches I ONLY ran with bots on my team, the other team had 3.
And I will bet that this will NOT change.
If non-participating gives less rewards, it only means they'll keep the bots up longer. And with the teamleader now only able to kick disconnected members (which for some reason, bots never are) there is no way to get rid of them. We'll just have to ride it out as it happens.
We need better reporting tools, better kicking tools and ways to avoid teaming up with known-bots. Not being forced to sit out a match between script-kiddies.
Lol you dont pvp much. You know what u lrn. 4 GF and DC all rocking tenes will stunlock u to death asap.
So what you learn is pay more to win and premades on TS will own any pug group.
And dont call me newb i pug pvp everyday with my headhunter title.
+1 to this. If its not fun why do it.
I does make sense, here is the logic:
First understand why there are bots, afkers, and deserters:
Bots and afkers exist to gain rewards without having to play. An afk team or multiboxer can sit at spawn and have the game finish quickly, thus efficiently farming xp or glory. Two other types of afker are 1) someone who hates pvp but wants the daily and 2) someone who is on a losing team and gives up, since it makes no difference reward wise if he/she tries or not. Similarly bots are programmed to do some task like run to mid and auto attack, while the player can be farming elsewhere on another toon.
Therefore, by reducing the reward for losing you reduce the incentive for afking/botting. The lower the reward the lower the incentive, while removing the reward for losing altogether would make it completely futile to afk/bot/multibox afk. Indeed, the daily should not be rewarded for losing, because I have heard so many afkers say they are just here for the daily (before I kicked them).
So how about leavers? Well first I will say when you sign up for a game it should be played to the end, unless a surrender vote is implemented. By leaving you are severely hurting your team. Also, we are assuming that there will be less bots/afkers since there is less incentive for that kind of thing. Atm, you can leave and join up in another team with NO penalty. In other words you can ruin the game for 4 other people and then continue on your merry way. Frankly that is just crazy. A deserter's debuff is needed!
Anyway, I hope you can see that reducing rewards for losing and applying a deserters debuff are a step in the right direction to take on this scourge that plagues the game. Please tell me where the above logic fails if you disagree.
I agree with you. But what happens in a situation where 3/5 are immatured kids who can only enjoy themselves while winning? In case they realise it's not going to be an easy win in first 30 seconds, massive decrease in "enjoyement" occures no matter how balanced and well thought certain PvP match is.
Increase rewards for the winning team so aside from being "competitive" a team actually has much more incentive to win.
It's harsh but since the player base is so divided into "PvP is breaking PvE" vice versa, implementing that much would keep the people who like PvP in PvP, and removing people who just use PvP to power level/farm gear into 60. A proper match-making service/queue would be nice, but let's face it, this game already has a lot of other things on its hands.
PVP: How to make your life less miserable as a Devoted Clerics -- Still in it's Unfinished Glory
Dragon
They also need to add that to PvE. Quitting a dungeon run because you had no clerics should be penalized as much as quitting a PvP game where one side is a premade and the other side has few botters and people with bad gear.
Why would they care? They are still going to farm glory without having to play. Are they going to get less? Sure. But they aren't actually playing, so there's no hassle for them. The only people this hassle will affect are legitimate players, who are the ones who are really getting boned here. Not only are they getting decreased rewards for their efforts in PvP, but have the extra bonus of having to actually play the game on a losing team filled with bots.
And if you are unable to win, you should get nothing. This just sounds more and more fun.
Lowered rewards, penalties, no dailies rewards for losing teams. My goodness, this is almost too much excitement to handle. Why would anyone PvE when the player-vs-player offers all of this?!
I'd be way more sympathetic to this idea if PvP wasn't as annoying as it is now. Just seems kind of crappy to punish people who are just fed up and want to go do something fun, when you can't even be bothered to find a way to punish the people really ruining the experience. This is something that will in no way affect bots, since they don't typically leave matches. But who will it affect? Once again, the player.
I'm not assuming this at all. These people farm glory to sell PvP gear/dance jagged blade companion for big money on auction house. There's no reason for them to stop. They don't actually have to play, so they can just enter PvP matches all day. It's not like they are getting tired or developing finger strain. They are still going to get tons of glory by the end of the day because they can play for hours on end without stop. Regular players cannot. Regular players needed significant glory rewards, and now they can't get it.
Eh, you should be able to vote to disband group if there's no clerics. There's no point in running some dungeons without them.
If I'm in a group with no clerics and they just want to keep throwing themselves at bosses they will never beat, what am I supposed to do. Just sigh deeply and continue pressing "W" key forward while they continuously die? How is this fun?
The problem here is that if you're the type of person who only likes to PvP, then you'd never advance without leveling experience. You'd never get new abilities to make PvP more exciting, or new gear to make it more dynamic. You'd just be using the same five abilities and fighting the same five people in the same five pieces of gear for eternity. How is this fun?
Okay, here's my suggestion. Strip out all rewards for PvE. Since it's the fun experience that really matters, right?
Then I actually do PvE content? Contrary to popular belief, PvPers are usually the ones that do most of the end-game dungeons, why? Because it gets them better gear, that in turn, makes them better in PvP. It's a silly notion that a person who likes PvP wouldn't do PvE content, hell we can only do PvP once we're level 10 (wading through that bloody tutorial, fighting some rats, etc). Does it make for a "funner" leveling experience to PvP to 60? Sure does, but not when bots, afk, leavers are running rampant. If i'm able to gain experience in PvP, it's because i actually fought in it, and because I know losing nets me nothing in return, preventing AFKs, Bots, leavers. As it stands right now, the system is being abused like hell, and only a drastic change would turn it around. Make winning a PvP match gain half or 1/3 a level, let's see if people don't try to win.
PVP: How to make your life less miserable as a Devoted Clerics -- Still in it's Unfinished Glory
Dragon
PvP is not PvE. PvP is PvP. Please stop trying to draw comparisons.
In case you didn't read my reply on page 4 (it doesn't look like you did), here's a synopsis:
PvP isn't there to be farmed. PvP isn't there for you to grind. If the current reward system encourages you to do so, let alone to expect to be able to do so, then that only underlines the fact that the PvP reward system needs some big changes. If you want more opportunities to farm gear and AD, ask for more PvE content along those lines. Please stop trying to force or expect PvP to be a farming venue.
Uh, read my post again. I'm not talking about people who enjoy PvP and PvE. I'm talking about people who solely enjoy fighting other players and don't ever want to touch the PvE aspects of this game. I'm not making any assumptions about the general player you find in PvP. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the guy who literally stopped running dungeons and quests the moment he got in his first domination. I also don't know how you "abuse" leveling up. Who cares. Then endgame is where PWI gets all their money anyway.
These arbitrary rules of yours just seem...random, man. Who says PvP isn't there for you to grind or farm? Who says that PvP can't be rewarding as well as fun? Who is this MMO god you're consulting with and can we mere mortals possibly convene with him as well? It's not like there's even anything to buy with glory after you get your first armor set anyway. I suspect most of the bots are just selling the stuff for AD, which is fine, since there isn't any decent way of farming AD at the moment anyway.
I also think you're just plan wrong, specifically for the reason. The T1 armor sets. They were clearly put in the game for the purposes of gearing up fresh level 60s to do the epic dungeons. There is no better way to get your gearscore up. The relatively low price of these items was clearly intentional. They wanted you to spend a few hours or so, really focusing on PvP so that you could earn a beneficial set of purples with unique stats and boosts than would get you on your way to running epic dungeons. Once these glory rewards dry up, we are going to have a lot of frustrated level 60s who are just going to do the SAME THING, but take much longer. It's actually going to make the grind longer and more frustrating. And for what?
Why punish the legit players ? Punish the bots - and where I am at it , implement some kind of report system for bots .
So you're saying that becuz you can't handle the bot issue you're just going to ruin the legit players experience , I suspect a deep thought process behind this .
Ask yourself , who is to blame you ( your dev team and ingame support team ) or us the legit players ?
1. Like I said, it's just a synopsis. If it seems random, read the full post on page 4.
2. My god is called Reason and of course you mere mortal may convene with him as well. It does take some effort and an open mind though.
3. Did you really just say "it's fine" that "bots are just selling stuff for AD?"
Absence of good AD farming opportunities is a core problem here, yes. That's what I just said, isn't it? If there were better ways to farm AD, you wouldn't feel drawn to farming PvP.
The PvP set is not the only T1 set. There is no reason to assume it was intended as THE entry set. In fact, for some classes, it's better than the other T1 sets and even some T2 sets. Not to mention that T1 dungeons have such low GS requirement that you don't even need purples to enter them. The PvP set just seems to have gotten labeled as "the entry set" because it's so easy to get. This needs to change.
What for? So that people like you stop seeing it as something to grind. If it's harder to get than dungeon T1, you won't be drawn to farming PvP. You'll go farm dungeons instead. As it should be. PvE rewards are there to be farmed. PvP rewards should be a matter of prestige. They should be earned, not farmed. To the Victor go the Spoils.
Biggest reason why instanced PvP sucks in battleground PvP games.
Would love to see them go the GW2 sPvP option, jut because you queue up with a team doesn't mean you will be grouped with your team. ROFLStomping pugs is the stupidest thing ever.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Bot issue aside, the game shouldnt even start until both teams are 5v5. Some kind of 'ready' clicky?
Either way, speaking as a semi-hc player who has not yet joined a guild or joined in premade pvp group, the pvp's inconsistencies outweigh the fun factor. But then it is 'open beta'. They still have time to tweak stuff.
I didn’t really have any idea how to deal with the bots because I was playing by PWE/Cryptic’s rules without even understanding what they were. But let’s take a closer look at them to see what can be done.
No more headcount
No one is going to get paid to keep up with this stuff, it will be exactly no one’s duty to address this directly.
Automate
Any sort of detection has to be automatic, computer based and operate without any human intervention whatsoever.
These are really the only two rules I can discern and they seem to govern everything in the game. But let’s not lose focus, bots in PVP.
Working with this I don’t see a way to really fix the problem. The automation is clearly controvertible with even the most infantile effort. The team will not be implementing any new technology. So whats to do?
Perhaps bending one of the rules will work. Get volunteer moderators for problem areas, in this case PVP. They can invisibly observe matches in progress and use existing reporting processes to make the team aware of the culprits. Want to give them more power? Sure go for it. But beware these caveats.
They cannot be engaged in the matches which they moderate. Conflict of interest, seriously this is axiomatic.
You need their eyes. Your detection systems are garbage and I think we all know that. You aren’t going to develop them into some all seeing sensor suite. Use something that already has millions of years of evolution behind it. Get some real eyes.
All you really need is a “trusted source”. Someone upon whose reports you may rely. Let all the banning and suspending and what not occur like it normally does but put a body on the problem and you can save yourself the embarrassment of automation.
And while we are on it…wouldn’t hurt to have someone reading those reports.
They will care because it will become more efficient to get xp/AD from other avenues. The people who are active players will get a lot of benefit from the changes because there will be more incentive to win and so less bots/afkers. Its not a "punishment" it is a move to fix a broken system that gave the same reward to an afker with score zero and an active player. A system that let any cretin just leave their whole team in the lurch with no penalty, and that differentiated little between winning or losing. No system is perfect, but these are basic measures taken in almost all mmos to help reduce the incentive to afk/leave.
All my toons were glory capped well before level 60. What is the point after that? To farm glory and sell stuff? Whoopti-doo. I play because I like pvp, if taking all rewards away from losers stamped out afkers/botters then I would be totally fine. The rewards do not equal fun to me.
In particular, the daily should definitely only be fulfilled if you win. Do you get the daily if you do half a foundry quest? Do you get the daily if you wipe on a dungeon? No. You have to "win" to complete those dailies. In addition, people even come out on the forums and say straight out that they afk in pvp just to do the daily-even in this thread someone admits to it, as if its just a normal thing to do. For the love of god stop such madness. Daily should only be completed if you win the match= easy way stop hundreds or thousands of people that afk for this reason. Which in turn=better pvp with less afkers. The logic is simple, but you are too focused on rewards for doing nothing.
The way I see it active players will get lots of rewards, afkers will get little if anything. So you don't get much for losing, what's the big deal? You still get more if you lose but play actively than a afker on a losing side.
Look, there is no magic button to stop these people. You either completely change the way rewards are structured (totally unlikely) or create an environment that makes afking a waste of time compared to playing actively. That's basically what they are doing. What would you have them do?
While I agree with leaver penalties(as stiff or stiffer than anything here), I personally admit that there is merit to this.
The reason people do it is Astral Diamonds, much more than glory. Four matches to do the daily at 60, play or not play it's easily the fastest daily to do. On top of that, there aren't enough PvE dailies to get a reasonable amount of diamonds, meaning that four PvP matches is easily in the neighborhood of 30% or more of a persons in game "income".
Do I think knocking that daily off the map is the solution to that? No way. Rather, give more options so that a person that otherwise wouldn't touch PvP with the 1' pole from the Robe of Useless items doesn't need to do it in order to bankroll their preferred playstyle.
After that, the people that continue to disrupt PvP should be banned so hard that they can't log into breakfast.
As for diminishing returns of glory....matches with bots tend to end with rather extreme scores. The more it deviates from the norm, the bigger the difference in glory gain for the teams.
Just 2 cents