People are continue to shell out $$$ so they are continuing this type of business models.
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tanglethornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
The cash shop is optional (although some could argue the game is considerably harder if you don't get some basic features that most other F2P games offer for free).
Now with that in mind, I assumed a Open Beta\Soft Launch meant that the devs were comfortable enough with state of the game to let the public play it\stress test it. So during the first few days my impression of the game was pretty positive, so I assumed it was safe to start buying cash shop items.
This is where I was wrong. The more I played the more game breaking stuff I came across. The player abusing things that were not meant to abuse made the problem even worse. I wont get into the myriad of bugs and issues that were in my mind pretty game breaking, but I quickly came to the conclusion I made a huge mistake.
I felt burnt and frustrated. I do in a strange way, feel somewhat scammed. I'll just chalk it up to a learning experience and never buy from an open beta cash shop again. Heck, I may even stay away from Open Betas all together because I already absorbed a lot of the leveling content with a negative experience attached to it which could have been avoided if I simply waited.
Basically PWE wanted us to help them Beta test the game, while we paid them for it and we are supposed to be happy. (Hey let me work for you and I'll pay you!).
I'd heavily recommend producers and players from going this route in regards to a game launch because I get the gut feeling you lost a lot of subscribers before the actual launch came out and the publicity you garnished was not good. I'll check in every once in awhile to see how things are going, but for now I'll wait and see what happens.
Opinions......I have been doing online gaming for years and years, hell I beta tested ultima online...but to state that this isnt the " golden age" of gaming is silly... Ffs.. Nintendo was mentioned.....ok either you shelled out the 50 bucks for a game or you shelled out 5 bucks for a two day rental, which if u liked you usually kept for a few weeks and paid 30 bucks anyhow...then either senerio.. U beat the game in a week and didnt want to play it any more..or it was so much cliff jumping trash you never played it again, yet still out some money and time...fast forward to today where there are literally thousands of either f2p games or " soft launch " betas that cost nothing but some time to download.. Then u play nd either keep playing for free or move on to another free game... Tell me how this isnt the golden age of gaming.....and if i hear one more rant about the good old days of gaming....seriously. Daoc for instance....5 months of ginding...and i mean grinding.and if u did it solo ..lol....just to get to a level where you can get the 100 people required to kill a world boss which spawns once a day.. Only to be back stabbed and wiped by a group of oposing faction players who then wipe and everyone has to wait 24 hrs to try again..ftr luvved daoc though...the people who complain about paying for say the hero of the north pack....hmmm says it gives u panther companion, drow race, spider mount, and some other " virtual stuff" ....how is it people feel cheated when thy got "exactly" the things they were told they would get.. I mean i see alot of spider mounts and panthers out there...or is it...that u played and the flavor of the game wasnt to your liking..well the fact that you could have played FREE...before purchasing didnt occur to you..
Problem is today people dont realize how many options they have compared to yester years and dont even grasp the concept that they are gettin it for free...i mean take for instance i payed for the big cheese wow for 8 yrs..and while super awesome to me most of that time...since I have bought a comp that can handle the newer games...I now have 27 games pn my comp as compared to just 1 ..I also dont shell out 16 dollas a month and feel like i have to play because im paying..which in turn means the wife gets her nails done 1 more time a month, in turn means I get laid more...in the end... Just be happy or all the benefits of the free to play, soft launch market you greedy little gimme it all now gremlins
Okay lets look at it from the publishers point of view. Its an interesting argument with valid concerns and valid truths. The thing is producers don't force you to purchase anything. Having a soft launch brings more people to the game and also help the producers make more money to invest into the games launch. Now does every company invest the money they make back into the game before their launch, no but i would hope NW does.
Most gamers neglect to remember is an MMO isn't just a game its a business, I'm current pursuing a degree in Game Programming, a lot of work goes into making the simplest of games, let alone an MMO. The new standard norm is for MMO's to be Free to play, and in doing this a company must rely on the cash shop and micro transactions to make there money so the game can stay afloat. WOW does it with subscriptions and costs to purchase the game. GW2, NW and much others do it with micro transactions, if you like the game and the company support them by purchasing small objects. If you do not like the game stop playing it and never spend a dime on it.
The article points out that it remembers the good ol' days with Mario brothers and in the fact that you paid one time and got a completed game. The problem with this approach is what if you spent the $60 to purchase wow like I did, and paid the first month sub for $15 like I did. I invested $75 in a game that i had never even played and the worst part is I hated wow, So i lost $75.
Games being F2P with soft releases allows people, everyone, to test a game out before investing money into the game. You can always play the game for years without ever spending a dime on the game, and that's perfectly okay. One must remember that you can purchase things from the zen store without ever spending a dime, by converting AD into zen. Yes it would take a month or so to buy one item, but its still free.
The bottom line is, NW is a F2P game, regardless of how you feel about a soft launch you still playing an AWESOME game that took years to develop, for free. So what the publishers what to make some money before the official launch. I don't blame them its very expensive to develop an MMO. Think about this the average game programmer makes roughly 90-110k a year. Time that by how many programmers NW has, plus the devs salary and every other expense. You cant blame them for wanting to make back some of there investment early with an early cash shop.
If you don't like it, stop playing the game. If you love the game and hate the cash shop don't spend dime on it and save up your AD to purchase ZEN. Plane and simple the game is free stop complaining, unless you invest money into the game you have no real say.
VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT WHO HAS THE MOST MONEY. You pay for the game the same as everyone else, and you play it. The option to get ahead by paying more should not exist, I abhor the individual(s) who first brought this idea to light. It is NOT for the benefit of the gamers and it does not enhance gaming; period.
Bang on about this being the golden age of gaming all you want - all I see are games with very little real effort put forth that are pushed out far too quickly in order to make as much money off the gaming population as possible before everyone realizes what an empty hunk of steamyness they really are and bails. None of these free to play titles will have near the staying power that WoW, EQ and the real MMO's with real content and FIERCELY loyal playerbase did. Because no one cares about these crappy worlds, they're just here for purps. An MMO cannot survive on flashy combat and gear alone.
Those uncomfortable spending money until the product is in a condition that, in their opinion, merits payment, have that option.
Those who want a jump start, or exclusive items, or to support the developer of a game based on a beloved IP through early payment have that as an option too.
Those choosing the latter path are not hurting those who choose the former. It is in no way harmful to someone who prefers the wait and see path for the company to accept payment from someone who opts to invest early.
Anyone who chooses to opt in early, essentially paying for an unknown quantity, without being ready to write off that early investment, accepting that they are gambling, is being foolish.
That said, the company is bound to be very clear, without even a single point of deviance from their position, that the product is not yet ready for market. That any investment in it is a gamble.
PWE/Cryptic did a poor job of this. Even a single point of contradiction in this advertised message is a complete failure of the entirety of the process.
But the point is to move on and improve from one's failures. Lets hope that NW does.
In American law you might be correct, but in many European countries this is flat out wrong. Their consumer protection will step in on behalf of the user and allow them to get their money back simply due to the user declaring the product not fit for use.
Wrong.
The announcement that the game is on Open Beta covers them from such claims. They state up front that the game is incomplete and IF people want to spend money they do so with that understanding.
The whiners really annoy me. PWE are being completely upfront about the state of the game, if players are too dumb to take a look at what that means before parting with their money then its their fault.
The game is in Beta, while that continues you accept a level of risk if you spend money, if you don't want to accept those risks then don't spend any money.
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peonpowerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited June 2013
I have noticed that Steam is doing these sorts of 'early access' deals more and more lately too. I must admit that I have bought into one or two of these and they are cleverly marketed with lots of little, 'must have' or 'bragging rights' extras, or so it would seem. The initial excitement fades pretty darn quick when you fire up the game and see the rubbish you just bought or the 'half a level of playable game'... There's always the promise of more to come and bigger and badder things too! Problem with that is that by the time it got here I just plain didn't care about it anymore. Or at least not enough to bother starting the game again.
Then there's the plain old 'fail titles' that just don't deliver anyway.. Yes, I have been caught a couple of times now and I won't throw stones at titles and post their names here for obvious reasons. I just think it needs to stop as it's like going to the bakery and paying for a half cooked loaf of bread and being told to like it..
"Back in the golden days of video games, there was no such thing as a soft launch. Nintendo didn't send out test copies of Super Mario World to special "backers," and Sega didn't ship half-finished Sonic games with promises of further content updates. Games, for the most part, were played only after they were finished, printed, packaged, and shipped. Even on PC, beta testing was more of an earned honor exclusive to players that showed dedication to a title and its community.
Here in these modern times of Internets and always-ons, however, things are different. It would seem as though developers need only make enough game content to shoot a reasonably convincing trailer before the publishing team can begin collecting money by slapping a "BETA" sticker on the webpage and offering fans early access.
Over the last few years soft launches have become increasingly common -- especially for creators of online games. The line between "in testing" and "done" is becoming blurred, and publishers are reaping the benefits while players suffer."
Interesting read that is clearly referring to Neverwinter (and other games). Discuss!
Do not blame the companies who make these games, but blame the players for spending their money on unfinished product.
It is always the consumer decide the fate of the product not the source.
Actually, what I find to be the sketchiest part of the whole 'open beta' scam is the bundling of things in limited-time packs.
If they had just gone soft launch with the cash shop and nothing else, that would be one thing, but offering things (that supposedly would never be available again) for sale in beta is another thing entirely.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Several consumers on this thread make a valid point, it isn't the devs or publishers that are at fault, it is the weak gamer they will cave into the hype, hell, they got me, this game is trash after you reach level 60. I wish there were a federal statute that could punish them but their EULAS cover their asses, and we all happily click our rights away.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
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peonpowerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
Several consumers on this thread make a valid point, it isn't the devs or publishers that are at fault, it is the weak gamer they will cave into the hype, hell, they got me, this game is trash after you reach level 60..
I was just looking at that comment and it occurred to me that none of these games of late seem to have any staying power after the level cap with the possible exception of Rift. Not trying to derail the thread here but this seems to be the norm now. Is this a lack of developer vision or a quick buck making scam to avoid ongoing maintenance and server costs etc?
What people don't understand is, EVERY SINGLE MMO is a pay to beta for the first 3-9 months of its launch. I've played dozens of MMOs, and not 1 of them were polished and had enough content from the get-go. Rift is probably the closest MMO that I can think of which had a good amount of content and was in a semi-polished state. But it still had lots of bugs, exploits, and imbalance.
Having said that, I can agree with some of the contents of this article. I hate how every online game these days abuse the term "beta" when it's really not in beta. I wish developers / publishers would stop lying to their customers and call their games what it is: A soft launch. They can fool the casual crowd into thinking games like Neverwinter are in beta, but the MMO vets like myself know exactly what it is. Don't insult our intelligence by claiming the game is in beta and have your fanbois defend all the problems in the game by saying "it's still in beta," when everyone knows it's not.
This game is free to play. No purchase necessary.
I think it's fun, some may not. If you don't think it's fun you can just delete it. You didn't shell out a dime. However, if you decided to pay for items...that's on you. Regardless of an EULA or the games Beta or Live state. Simple.
Also, to cry about a game that's literally free to download and play is awfully petty.
Come out with some generic classes that fill roles (tank, dps, heal) and then have them executed horribly. GWF worthless, tanks not required, mage nothing but a CC/knock mobs off ledge bot, rogue the only class that can damage so we better nerf. Make every fight the exact same thing (boss does 1-3 red void zone moves, spawns adds continuously that are all different skins but clones of each other. Have a ridiculous amount of currency types that make you lose track of what you have and what you can get and how much each costs relative to the other. Make questing easy so that you're under the illusion there's depth to the game. Make bag space scarce by putting out 40 types of runes with increasing ranks, but make it so when you hit max level you're only at rank 4/10. Make it so the rates to upgrade are 95%, 90%, 85%, then when you hit max level and think it will go 80, 75, 70, have it start dropping to 60, 40, 20. Make it so that in order to get bags you need to spend money. Make it so that to upgrade your mount you need to spend money. Have no foresight on gear tiering and make it so that the second you hit max level you can drop your AD on the AH and get full epics. Have 10 dungeons to do, but only let you queue for 3 at once. Introduce four pvp zones and make them all clones of each other. Put out no quest lines, no grinding, no reputation, no nothing to do. Outsource your content to the playerbase and have them make quests so that they're busy but you didn't have to actually do anything yourself. Come up with a system where your players need to log in constantly to upgrade their crafting which is worthless and to stockpile tokens to eventually get rewards 150 + days down the road that are already worthless. Hire a psychologist to help you figure out how to get people addicted using casino tactics. Charge for items and don't wipe characters, but call your game a beta so that bugs are excused by harcore fanboys who will fork over money to get a slight advantage and delude themself into thinking the game isn't doomed. Constantly tease at class reworkings and gameplay improvements and new content in the future to keep people hooked, and generally make it as obvious as possible that all you want is some money before moving on to the next big thing
You're free to play and/or spend money on an unfinished product as per your choice. If a large amount of players are willing to pay good money for a game in beta, why wouldn't they soft launch and reap the rewards.
Only problem I see here is developement stagnating as developers become complacent and lazy since the cash is already flowing anyway, less incentive to finish and polish the game.
If you disagree with this practice blame the playerbase not the company, they are merely offering what they see their playerbase wants.
The idea of a random prize box comes from Asia where there's an inherent lack of or weak consumer protection laws and anti-gambling laws. In fact the Japanese government has recently outlawed these so called "mystery" bag because they are considered gambling. Now all these companies are moving to the western market.
Absolute rubbish!
Have you never had Cracker Jacks or a breakfast cereal?
Random prizes are fairly universal and to purport otherwise is pure poppycock.
Come out with some generic classes that fill roles (tank, dps, heal) and then have them executed horribly. GWF worthless, tanks not required, mage nothing but a CC/knock mobs off ledge bot, rogue the only class that can damage so we better nerf. Make every fight the exact same thing (boss does 1-3 red void zone moves, spawns adds continuously that are all different skins but clones of each other. Have a ridiculous amount of currency types that make you lose track of what you have and what you can get and how much each costs relative to the other. Make questing easy so that you're under the illusion there's depth to the game. Make bag space scarce by putting out 40 types of runes with increasing ranks, but make it so when you hit max level you're only at rank 4/10. Make it so the rates to upgrade are 95%, 90%, 85%, then when you hit max level and think it will go 80, 75, 70, have it start dropping to 60, 40, 20. Make it so that in order to get bags you need to spend money. Make it so that to upgrade your mount you need to spend money. Have no foresight on gear tiering and make it so that the second you hit max level you can drop your AD on the AH and get full epics. Have 10 dungeons to do, but only let you queue for 3 at once. Introduce four pvp zones and make them all clones of each other. Put out no quest lines, no grinding, no reputation, no nothing to do. Outsource your content to the playerbase and have them make quests so that they're busy but you didn't have to actually do anything yourself. Come up with a system where your players need to log in constantly to upgrade their crafting which is worthless and to stockpile tokens to eventually get rewards 150 + days down the road that are already worthless. Hire a psychologist to help you figure out how to get people addicted using casino tactics. Charge for items and don't wipe characters, but call your game a beta so that bugs are excused by harcore fanboys who will fork over money to get a slight advantage and delude themself into thinking the game isn't doomed. Constantly tease at class reworkings and gameplay improvements and new content in the future to keep people hooked, and generally make it as obvious as possible that all you want is some money before moving on to the next big thing
/Thread.
I always thought it was fishy that you could upgrade mount speed with money... Every time someone brings up something wrong with the game the fanboys start screaming that the game is still in "beta". The simple fact that you can't even use gold for some of the most simple things in the game blow my mind. I don't how that wasn't an immediate red flag to a lot of people. Not being able to use gold for respecs, Mount upgrades, Bag space, Bank space, and the list would go on.
I understand that the game is Free to play but charging money for basic things in a game instead of using in game money is ridiculous
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
"Back in the golden days of video games, there was no such thing as a soft launch. Nintendo didn't send out test copies of Super Mario World to special "backers," and Sega didn't ship half-finished Sonic games with promises of further content updates. Games, for the most part, were played only after they were finished, printed, packaged, and shipped. Even on PC, beta testing was more of an earned honor exclusive to players that showed dedication to a title and its community.
Here in these modern times of Internets and always-ons, however, things are different. It would seem as though developers need only make enough game content to shoot a reasonably convincing trailer before the publishing team can begin collecting money by slapping a "BETA" sticker on the webpage and offering fans early access.
Over the last few years soft launches have become increasingly common -- especially for creators of online games. The line between "in testing" and "done" is becoming blurred, and publishers are reaping the benefits while players suffer."
Interesting read that is clearly referring to Neverwinter (and other games). Discuss!
Shoddily written as usual, with poor comparisons. Yeah, there's an issue with soft launches/preorders etc., but this stance specifically is rubbish.
What is the "golden age"? If it's the late 80s-early 90s, then the games were a lot smaller and more simple, and didn't need nearly as much extensive testing. If it's the late 90s-early 00s, then he needs to take off his rose-tinted nostalgia goggles and face how broken many of the games were at initial release.
And if beta soft-launch for free games is bad, what about half-broken SP games you have to actually pay 60 bucks for? But no, the guy basically licks Bethesda's boots in his other articles despite the fact that they release buggy trash and never fix it.
In other words, 100% hypocrisy. I wonder what "bonuses" the guy got for this article from Cryptic's competitors. Gaming journalism at its worst.
I chuckled when I first saw that there would not be a character wipe at the end of open beta for Neverwinter. It told me that Cryptic were doing a live launch in all but name. Its not really a beta at all. This is live but the power of marketing compels you to be more gentle with Cryptic when something goes wrong
Calling it Open Beta just means Cryptic have a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free when there's a big cockup, such as with the Auction House. Worth pointing out it fools nobody. The bugs won't magically go away at the end of Open Beta. There'll be new ones, old ones unfixed and as yet undiscovered hacks and glitches to be ironed out. This is Marketing and cashflow, nothing more.
Saying this, why am I playing (and paying) then? Because despite its many flaws Neverwinter is quite fun to play. Ultimately, thats what matters. When it stops being fun then the money stops too.
Roo. Cleric. Mad as a bag of badgers, will heal for beer.
People are willing to buy an unfinished product because theywant to for various reasons. To support the staff developing the game is a big one. No staff equals no game. You are only entitled to what you are purchasing at the time of purchase... whatever is in the contract.
Various reasons.
Naive
Gullible
young-n-inexperienced
There's lots of reasons that people do things. Doesnt make them right, or intelligent actions. People still go to payday loan sites, even though it has been shown, quite literally, they could get as good a deal from the mafia in some cases before laws were put in place to prevent them from charging crazy interest rates. But because they could do it, and people would agree to it, it's ok in your eyes.
Actually Stercogburn, open betas don't normally wipe. Maybe you are confusing OBs with closed betas?
On to the article...the author clearly shows bias when he condones crowdfunding for "Indie" companies, but doesn't recognise that established gaming companies face exactly the same risks when developing games, only on a much larger financial level. And if their risks don't pay off the results can be devastating.
I haven't always embraced changes in the gaming world, quite the opposite actually. When MMOs first hit the stores I couldn't get my head around paying for a game and then having to pay again month after month. A decade or so later, my opinion had changed so much that when MMORPG.com started backing FTP MMOs, I practically boycotted the site in disgust as nothing 'free' could come close to the quality of a subscription-based game (in my opinion). And while the latter is still generally true, FTP games have come a long, long way and I can admit that those who recognised their benefit to the community long before I did were right!
And now I am older and wiser and know that my own opinions can change vastly over time. So I welcome the fact that there are more choices to us as consumers about when and how we pay for our gaming hobby. Choice can never be a bad thing and if paying for early access to games in one form or another results in companies more willing to take the (huge) risk of developing new games then I think we should all welcome this new(ish) business model.
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doctorcomicsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Saul: When is the opening? Everyone: July 3rd. Danny: You've got fireworks, the stoke of midnight, the whole shebang. Saul: But we're going in now? It's already open. Rusty: No, it's a soft opening. To test the place before the grand opening. Linus: Yeah, it's kind of like an out of town preview only it's in town. Saul: Soft opening? Grand opening? When they opened the Flamingo, one day it was closed, the next day it was open. End of story. I know, I was there. Danny: Well, it's different now. Saul: So when is opening night? Everyone: July 3rd!
Won't stop me from playing and supporting games I enjoy. I figure each hour I enjoy is worth $10, as my time is scarce I don't mind spending some cash on Zen/Upgrades.
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Never understood this. If you enjoy playing a game you play it and get the goodies. If you don't why bother ?
I believe the author got it right. I know this is called an Open Beta but the company is beginning to recover it's investment via Founder packs and Zen sales (for use in NW). This is a functioning product.
From the corporate point of view, I get it. Why pay to outsource or in house QA when you have players chomping on the bit to get into the game world? You can call it a beta so people understand everything won't be in place and there may be set backs. You offer the customer a way to spend money while they are at it and viola! you're working your way out of the red.
PWE isn't the first or the last company to do it. While I'm enjoying NW I cannot honestly say I support this model. Maybe I'm just too old but I miss the days of buying a finished product. These days it seems that if you buy any software you know it will be six months before it begins living up to it's promise.
Aside from gaming I really enjoy reading. Can you imagine books being done this way? "Here's the early draft of Dwarves & Demons: The Light Drow Conundrum." You can begin reading it now on your kindle but the author isn't finished and it will go through some revisions.
Comments
Now with that in mind, I assumed a Open Beta\Soft Launch meant that the devs were comfortable enough with state of the game to let the public play it\stress test it. So during the first few days my impression of the game was pretty positive, so I assumed it was safe to start buying cash shop items.
This is where I was wrong. The more I played the more game breaking stuff I came across. The player abusing things that were not meant to abuse made the problem even worse. I wont get into the myriad of bugs and issues that were in my mind pretty game breaking, but I quickly came to the conclusion I made a huge mistake.
I felt burnt and frustrated. I do in a strange way, feel somewhat scammed. I'll just chalk it up to a learning experience and never buy from an open beta cash shop again. Heck, I may even stay away from Open Betas all together because I already absorbed a lot of the leveling content with a negative experience attached to it which could have been avoided if I simply waited.
Basically PWE wanted us to help them Beta test the game, while we paid them for it and we are supposed to be happy. (Hey let me work for you and I'll pay you!).
I'd heavily recommend producers and players from going this route in regards to a game launch because I get the gut feeling you lost a lot of subscribers before the actual launch came out and the publicity you garnished was not good. I'll check in every once in awhile to see how things are going, but for now I'll wait and see what happens.
Just my 2 cents.
Problem is today people dont realize how many options they have compared to yester years and dont even grasp the concept that they are gettin it for free...i mean take for instance i payed for the big cheese wow for 8 yrs..and while super awesome to me most of that time...since I have bought a comp that can handle the newer games...I now have 27 games pn my comp as compared to just 1 ..I also dont shell out 16 dollas a month and feel like i have to play because im paying..which in turn means the wife gets her nails done 1 more time a month, in turn means I get laid more...in the end... Just be happy or all the benefits of the free to play, soft launch market you greedy little gimme it all now gremlins
LOL!!! Thats some funny stuff right there!
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Most gamers neglect to remember is an MMO isn't just a game its a business, I'm current pursuing a degree in Game Programming, a lot of work goes into making the simplest of games, let alone an MMO. The new standard norm is for MMO's to be Free to play, and in doing this a company must rely on the cash shop and micro transactions to make there money so the game can stay afloat. WOW does it with subscriptions and costs to purchase the game. GW2, NW and much others do it with micro transactions, if you like the game and the company support them by purchasing small objects. If you do not like the game stop playing it and never spend a dime on it.
The article points out that it remembers the good ol' days with Mario brothers and in the fact that you paid one time and got a completed game. The problem with this approach is what if you spent the $60 to purchase wow like I did, and paid the first month sub for $15 like I did. I invested $75 in a game that i had never even played and the worst part is I hated wow, So i lost $75.
Games being F2P with soft releases allows people, everyone, to test a game out before investing money into the game. You can always play the game for years without ever spending a dime on the game, and that's perfectly okay. One must remember that you can purchase things from the zen store without ever spending a dime, by converting AD into zen. Yes it would take a month or so to buy one item, but its still free.
The bottom line is, NW is a F2P game, regardless of how you feel about a soft launch you still playing an AWESOME game that took years to develop, for free. So what the publishers what to make some money before the official launch. I don't blame them its very expensive to develop an MMO. Think about this the average game programmer makes roughly 90-110k a year. Time that by how many programmers NW has, plus the devs salary and every other expense. You cant blame them for wanting to make back some of there investment early with an early cash shop.
If you don't like it, stop playing the game. If you love the game and hate the cash shop don't spend dime on it and save up your AD to purchase ZEN. Plane and simple the game is free stop complaining, unless you invest money into the game you have no real say.
Bang on about this being the golden age of gaming all you want - all I see are games with very little real effort put forth that are pushed out far too quickly in order to make as much money off the gaming population as possible before everyone realizes what an empty hunk of steamyness they really are and bails. None of these free to play titles will have near the staying power that WoW, EQ and the real MMO's with real content and FIERCELY loyal playerbase did. Because no one cares about these crappy worlds, they're just here for purps. An MMO cannot survive on flashy combat and gear alone.
Giving more options is good.
Those uncomfortable spending money until the product is in a condition that, in their opinion, merits payment, have that option.
Those who want a jump start, or exclusive items, or to support the developer of a game based on a beloved IP through early payment have that as an option too.
Those choosing the latter path are not hurting those who choose the former. It is in no way harmful to someone who prefers the wait and see path for the company to accept payment from someone who opts to invest early.
Anyone who chooses to opt in early, essentially paying for an unknown quantity, without being ready to write off that early investment, accepting that they are gambling, is being foolish.
That said, the company is bound to be very clear, without even a single point of deviance from their position, that the product is not yet ready for market. That any investment in it is a gamble.
PWE/Cryptic did a poor job of this. Even a single point of contradiction in this advertised message is a complete failure of the entirety of the process.
But the point is to move on and improve from one's failures. Lets hope that NW does.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Wrong.
The announcement that the game is on Open Beta covers them from such claims. They state up front that the game is incomplete and IF people want to spend money they do so with that understanding.
The whiners really annoy me. PWE are being completely upfront about the state of the game, if players are too dumb to take a look at what that means before parting with their money then its their fault.
The game is in Beta, while that continues you accept a level of risk if you spend money, if you don't want to accept those risks then don't spend any money.
Then there's the plain old 'fail titles' that just don't deliver anyway.. Yes, I have been caught a couple of times now and I won't throw stones at titles and post their names here for obvious reasons. I just think it needs to stop as it's like going to the bakery and paying for a half cooked loaf of bread and being told to like it..
Do not blame the companies who make these games, but blame the players for spending their money on unfinished product.
It is always the consumer decide the fate of the product not the source.
If they had just gone soft launch with the cash shop and nothing else, that would be one thing, but offering things (that supposedly would never be available again) for sale in beta is another thing entirely.
I was just looking at that comment and it occurred to me that none of these games of late seem to have any staying power after the level cap with the possible exception of Rift. Not trying to derail the thread here but this seems to be the norm now. Is this a lack of developer vision or a quick buck making scam to avoid ongoing maintenance and server costs etc?
One of the few in the comment section that isn't a mewling groupie of massively or Mike( I hate any game that isn't EvE or WoW) Foster. :rolleyes:
Notice Mike didn't say a **** thing when DUST had a soft launch and just called it something else.
Having said that, I can agree with some of the contents of this article. I hate how every online game these days abuse the term "beta" when it's really not in beta. I wish developers / publishers would stop lying to their customers and call their games what it is: A soft launch. They can fool the casual crowd into thinking games like Neverwinter are in beta, but the MMO vets like myself know exactly what it is. Don't insult our intelligence by claiming the game is in beta and have your fanbois defend all the problems in the game by saying "it's still in beta," when everyone knows it's not.
I think it's fun, some may not. If you don't think it's fun you can just delete it. You didn't shell out a dime. However, if you decided to pay for items...that's on you. Regardless of an EULA or the games Beta or Live state. Simple.
Also, to cry about a game that's literally free to download and play is awfully petty.
Come out with some generic classes that fill roles (tank, dps, heal) and then have them executed horribly. GWF worthless, tanks not required, mage nothing but a CC/knock mobs off ledge bot, rogue the only class that can damage so we better nerf. Make every fight the exact same thing (boss does 1-3 red void zone moves, spawns adds continuously that are all different skins but clones of each other. Have a ridiculous amount of currency types that make you lose track of what you have and what you can get and how much each costs relative to the other. Make questing easy so that you're under the illusion there's depth to the game. Make bag space scarce by putting out 40 types of runes with increasing ranks, but make it so when you hit max level you're only at rank 4/10. Make it so the rates to upgrade are 95%, 90%, 85%, then when you hit max level and think it will go 80, 75, 70, have it start dropping to 60, 40, 20. Make it so that in order to get bags you need to spend money. Make it so that to upgrade your mount you need to spend money. Have no foresight on gear tiering and make it so that the second you hit max level you can drop your AD on the AH and get full epics. Have 10 dungeons to do, but only let you queue for 3 at once. Introduce four pvp zones and make them all clones of each other. Put out no quest lines, no grinding, no reputation, no nothing to do. Outsource your content to the playerbase and have them make quests so that they're busy but you didn't have to actually do anything yourself. Come up with a system where your players need to log in constantly to upgrade their crafting which is worthless and to stockpile tokens to eventually get rewards 150 + days down the road that are already worthless. Hire a psychologist to help you figure out how to get people addicted using casino tactics. Charge for items and don't wipe characters, but call your game a beta so that bugs are excused by harcore fanboys who will fork over money to get a slight advantage and delude themself into thinking the game isn't doomed. Constantly tease at class reworkings and gameplay improvements and new content in the future to keep people hooked, and generally make it as obvious as possible that all you want is some money before moving on to the next big thing
They are just jealous of Cryptic.
If they hate it so much, why do they not make their own loosely based on D&D $40 mount simulator game. I doubt they could do any better.
"You can't play in the NBA so you can't criticize anybody in the NBA!"
Only problem I see here is developement stagnating as developers become complacent and lazy since the cash is already flowing anyway, less incentive to finish and polish the game.
If you disagree with this practice blame the playerbase not the company, they are merely offering what they see their playerbase wants.
Absolute rubbish!
Have you never had Cracker Jacks or a breakfast cereal?
Random prizes are fairly universal and to purport otherwise is pure poppycock.
/Thread.
I always thought it was fishy that you could upgrade mount speed with money... Every time someone brings up something wrong with the game the fanboys start screaming that the game is still in "beta". The simple fact that you can't even use gold for some of the most simple things in the game blow my mind. I don't how that wasn't an immediate red flag to a lot of people. Not being able to use gold for respecs, Mount upgrades, Bag space, Bank space, and the list would go on.
I understand that the game is Free to play but charging money for basic things in a game instead of using in game money is ridiculous
Shoddily written as usual, with poor comparisons. Yeah, there's an issue with soft launches/preorders etc., but this stance specifically is rubbish.
What is the "golden age"? If it's the late 80s-early 90s, then the games were a lot smaller and more simple, and didn't need nearly as much extensive testing. If it's the late 90s-early 00s, then he needs to take off his rose-tinted nostalgia goggles and face how broken many of the games were at initial release.
And if beta soft-launch for free games is bad, what about half-broken SP games you have to actually pay 60 bucks for? But no, the guy basically licks Bethesda's boots in his other articles despite the fact that they release buggy trash and never fix it.
In other words, 100% hypocrisy. I wonder what "bonuses" the guy got for this article from Cryptic's competitors. Gaming journalism at its worst.
Calling it Open Beta just means Cryptic have a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free when there's a big cockup, such as with the Auction House. Worth pointing out it fools nobody. The bugs won't magically go away at the end of Open Beta. There'll be new ones, old ones unfixed and as yet undiscovered hacks and glitches to be ironed out. This is Marketing and cashflow, nothing more.
Saying this, why am I playing (and paying) then? Because despite its many flaws Neverwinter is quite fun to play. Ultimately, thats what matters. When it stops being fun then the money stops too.
Ancient Shadows: Mature. Sensible. Custard.
Recruitment info at: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?462591-Ancient-Shadows-Become-a-Lion-Tamer-without-learning-Chartered-Accountancy-first!&highlight=ancient+shadows
Various reasons.
Naive
Gullible
young-n-inexperienced
There's lots of reasons that people do things. Doesnt make them right, or intelligent actions. People still go to payday loan sites, even though it has been shown, quite literally, they could get as good a deal from the mafia in some cases before laws were put in place to prevent them from charging crazy interest rates. But because they could do it, and people would agree to it, it's ok in your eyes.
*shrugs* ethics...it's a lost cause.
On to the article...the author clearly shows bias when he condones crowdfunding for "Indie" companies, but doesn't recognise that established gaming companies face exactly the same risks when developing games, only on a much larger financial level. And if their risks don't pay off the results can be devastating.
I haven't always embraced changes in the gaming world, quite the opposite actually. When MMOs first hit the stores I couldn't get my head around paying for a game and then having to pay again month after month. A decade or so later, my opinion had changed so much that when MMORPG.com started backing FTP MMOs, I practically boycotted the site in disgust as nothing 'free' could come close to the quality of a subscription-based game (in my opinion). And while the latter is still generally true, FTP games have come a long, long way and I can admit that those who recognised their benefit to the community long before I did were right!
And now I am older and wiser and know that my own opinions can change vastly over time. So I welcome the fact that there are more choices to us as consumers about when and how we pay for our gaming hobby. Choice can never be a bad thing and if paying for early access to games in one form or another results in companies more willing to take the (huge) risk of developing new games then I think we should all welcome this new(ish) business model.
Everyone: July 3rd.
Danny: You've got fireworks, the stoke of midnight, the whole shebang.
Saul: But we're going in now? It's already open.
Rusty: No, it's a soft opening. To test the place before the grand opening.
Linus: Yeah, it's kind of like an out of town preview only it's in town.
Saul: Soft opening? Grand opening? When they opened the Flamingo, one day it was closed, the next day it was open. End of story. I know, I was there.
Danny: Well, it's different now.
Saul: So when is opening night?
Everyone: July 3rd!
Ocean's 13: Soft Opening? Grand Opening?
Seven Against Thay: An RP-Focused Guild for all Races and Classes
Never understood this. If you enjoy playing a game you play it and get the goodies. If you don't why bother ?
From the corporate point of view, I get it. Why pay to outsource or in house QA when you have players chomping on the bit to get into the game world? You can call it a beta so people understand everything won't be in place and there may be set backs. You offer the customer a way to spend money while they are at it and viola! you're working your way out of the red.
PWE isn't the first or the last company to do it. While I'm enjoying NW I cannot honestly say I support this model. Maybe I'm just too old but I miss the days of buying a finished product. These days it seems that if you buy any software you know it will be six months before it begins living up to it's promise.
Aside from gaming I really enjoy reading. Can you imagine books being done this way? "Here's the early draft of Dwarves & Demons: The Light Drow Conundrum." You can begin reading it now on your kindle but the author isn't finished and it will go through some revisions.
There is a new numerical term: billions. Also, there are currency symbols. Try using them, as in, "$15 billion".